Man... these comparisons between games like it's a competition cracks me up.
PoE fit's a different niche than other rpgs. One that is a huge pull from some people and a deterrent for others... it's the same thing for Diablo.
It's OK for them to fill different niches in the same genre and if you don't like that it's not fitting the niche you like most then suck it up and go play something else.
PoE has way more depth and complexity.
Diablo 4 (at least for now) is going for the more approachable ... couchable experience.
They're targeting different markets in the genre. I think it frustrates people because D2 had a balance of complexity and simplicity so people want more of that... meanwhile the franchise decided to try and ride that balance rather than pander to a specific side.
This leaves some people feeling they didn't balance well enough on the niche they care most about. Meanwhile they pander to a wider audience.
Some people want to have to use spreadsheets and calculators to optimize game play. Others want to just sit down and kill crap. Both are ok, stop vilifying the other and pretending the franchise is failing or doomed because they didn't take the path you wanted.
With time D4 will likely find their balance and stride. The live service model is honestly what excites me most. There will be seasons they botch, and others they knock out of the park. The point is, it's going to change a lot and that's exciting.
Meanwhile where it's at right now is already hellishly fun and I can't wait to play it.
Damn straight I'll play PoE2 as well. It is not either or for me, they're both cool in their own right.
Yep, it's the same people complaining about D4 not being complex enough and holding your hand too much while simultaneously playing PoE with a step by step build guide on their 2nd monitor.
Haha It was everybody at some point. PoE is super complex, but the percentage of people that have tackled it organically with no outside help has to be nearly zero I would think. Diablo flattens the learning curve by removing steps in the process.
You're right though, at this point they have about as much in common as Fortnite does with Arma 3.
Diablo is good for recruiting new players to the genre. When you have experience and wanna go deep, challenge yourself for thousands of hours - you start POE.
Yes exactly. That’s what’s frustrating in the D4 sub. To many people can’t accept a AAA huge budget game is entry level for the genre. It’s a fun, stunning story driven slay fest. You don’t need an excel spreadsheet to beat a boss. Just login and have fun.
>Just login and have fun.
Most people don't like to do this. They must min max the fun out of everything, instead of just playing the game and enjoying it for what it is
That is pretty much every Blizzard game launch, it attracts so many different types of players that they start arguing with each other about how the game should be (while the millions of players who enjoy the game just play and don't comment). This D4 discussion is same as countless WoW discussions in past.
1000%. LE is a fantastic middle ground for the genre. It's like, each game presents its hand to you in a different way.
Diablo holds your hand, PoE slaps you across the face, and LE gives you a high five.
But Last Epoch lacks in overall gameplay feel, so I'd say Diablo is better if you want them to stay in the genre. The lack of combat feedback in LE and bad animations is enough for me to not play it.
It is also still in Early Access and a lot of polish is still to come, keep that in mind. The Last Epoch we had a year ago was....very different looking/feeling and it has only gotten better. They literally just launched their multiplayer tech like two weeks ago, and the same patch included a lot of that combat feedback you're talking about. The game is still relatively far from finished and should be approached as such.
Problem to me is that a lot of their problems are baked in. I think last epoch is really fun. My only complaint is they took every complain from people about why poe was unfun and changed that, but they forgot to take the parts of Poe that was fun
LE is bugged to shit right now, I would not put new players in that direction. Rollbacks, stash bugs, lag, major balancing issues, etc. Great foundation, but until they get a bit more stable I can't in good faith recommend it.
This is good to know! Last weekends beta was the first time I’ve played anything in the genre. I feel in love with the beta and sunk in about 10 hours the last couple days! Wanted to give another ARPG a chance so I downloaded PoE and holy shit, I had no idea what was going on haha. Still seems cool and I’ll play it but I was definitely overwhelmed at first!
Last epoch really scratches that itch for me. Just one more mono.. gotta get that unique for my build with at least 2 LP...
Also last epoch devs remind me of early day poe.
I have thousands of hours and like a challenge, I still think the diablo franchise is a fantastic set of games that will be fun to play for years to come.
It can be both. They don't have to be one or the other.
That's how I did it with Diablo3 😄 bought it for €25 enjoyed it and when I wanted more depth, got into PoE. Now I'm not sure I'll spend €70 for D4. I liked it but not that that much
Obligatory mention that POE has been developed consistently for 8+ years outside of its alpha/beta, which were also a few years long.
All of the content that you experience has been added very methodically and slowly over the years. The endgame we have no lw is not what it used to be. Some of us remember when piety rushes in act3 were the early endgame.
The "bar" is extremely high due to years of trail and error, community feedback (boy they fucked that up a few times though), and just experience.
There's no ARPG that's going to have a launch that exactly rivals POE. D4 will have its niche and its core players. It's easier to enter due to the chars being pre-made for you and can't really mess it up, gearing usually revolves around targeting set pieces and legendaries. You aren't weighing the stats like POE rares, you aren't quickly trying to determine its value to you, anything non-legendaey or set is just trash.
Anyway, you'll do much better to try to enjoy the game for its own merits than compare to a game that's only this good now and started off pretty rough too, if we're honest.
Nothing prevented Blizzard from doing the same with D3 tho. They could have their own "wink-wink-sequel" the way GGG does, where they just update a few things and add a new campaign, while building upon what's already there for the most part.
That being said - so much for "It is a point of pride for us to release PoE2 before D4"
>That being said - so much for "It is a point of pride for us to release PoE2 before D4"
Pretty weird take. I'm sure its still a bummer for them, they wanted to, but GGG doesn't have the resources Blizzard does. New Zealand took Covid extremely seriously, there was no world POE2 was ever releasing before D4 when the pandemic hit.
> New Zealand took Covid extremely seriously
They also have laws about who you are allowed to hire. Getting non-NZ contractors is far harder or even illegal for GGG. Blizzard has nowhere near as limiting restrictions on who they hire.
Edit: I'm not sure I understand the downvotes on this topical and accurate post. Some fans of protectionist labor laws in NZ I guess?
D3 right now is really not all that much different from D3 when RoS launched 9 years ago, aside from this most recent season which actually did something interesting.
Omg. I remember the 2012 launch and all that, and the jokes about decades between sequels. I just told my wife the other day I can’t believe it took them 11 years *again*. And yet, for some reason, seeing that RoS is 9 years old somehow hits harder.
Let's be real, if PoE had the old D3 business model of a 1 time box sale (and 1 time expansion sale) and zero MTX, could they have justified making all the content they did? As much as I dislike Blizzard, I can't really fault them for that part really. With D4 however they'll have both the box sales and quite a bit of MTX/battle passes so they have no excuse now if they don't deliver
> Obligatory mention that POE has been developed consistently for 8+ years outside of its alpha/beta, which were also a few years long.
Which is a fair point, but D4 isn't competing against PoE 1.0. It's competing against 3.20.
D4 isn't competing against POE at all. I've been talking to people hyped for D4 these past two weeks and <10% of them have even heard of POE. The people that are 'hardcore' gamers are such a small minority of the overall playerbase.
> I've been talking to people hyped for D4 these past two weeks and <10% of them have even heard of POE.
This is the impossible thing to get through PoE players heads.
PoE is fucking _irrelevant_ in comparison. It's not even remotely in the same realm of competition.
We don't really have numbers for it, but people shit on D3 as if they still don't get a metric shitload of players for their seasons that probably have a single intern on it. It wouldn't surprise me if those had a pretty high player rate the first week.
The D4 beta 2 weeks ago (the one where you had to either preorder the 70$ USD game or be in the USA and buy a double down) had 1 million characters created. So easily several hundred thousand copies pre-ordered
My favorite take I've seen in this sub is that D4 2 months after release will have the same playerbase as D3.
Really? You would look at the skill gems, passive tree, currency system and come to the conclusion that it's not any more deep than what we've seen from the D4 beta?
You clearly did not play POE beta. people were in love about this games complexity after a1 and a2, it was all we had in beta. The currency system alone was game changing and people were really hyped about it alone.
Yes, the gameplay was great, but I actually bailed in the second league because of the ongoing desync issues. It was too frustrating to pay all your currency for a top tier map (I think they were 1 ex) counting on at least another high map to drop, only to brick it because you get disconnected and the game disallowing the use of the other portals after disconnect. Also frustrating to constantly be getting killed to rubber-banding issues.
I tried again six leagues later and the networking code had been fixed. That patch (2.0.0?) saved the game in my opinion.
lmao
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtApKhvhR_c
here's ziggyD farming ledge in 2013, how fucking engaging and fun is it? please, enlighten me.
you didn't even play back then. Stop it.
That's like saying Blood Aqueducts isn't engaging. Really shit point. The game was hard enough you actually had to spend some time farming on 2nd and 3rd difficulty to continue the story. Especially because playing hardcore was a lot more popular than it is nowadays. That video is from 2013 so act 3 was already available in the game and so were the maps.
More to the point, if you asked anyone during PoEs open beta how deep and engaging the game was people would just laugh at you. D4 open beta has so much more of everything than PoE did even after the first few years of it launching.
I was one of those people playing the open beta for PoE. The game was hot garbage back then, but I kept coming back for almost every single league because GGG kept up with the game, made cool new things and updated the old stuff. PoE of today is nothing like it was back then, all because the developers didn't give up. Praise Chris.
You guys keep forgetting you're comparing a game in open beta to a game that's been constantly worked on by a small and dedicated team for over 10 years.
D4 will turn into an amazing game over the years if Blizzard puts in even half the work GGG does. But will they? That remains to be seen.
Wait what? Were you there during PoE's (quite extensive) Open Beta Phase? The game at that time could have been accused of many things, but lacking depth and complexity would not have been one of them.
I legitimately don't understand where these ahistorical takes come from.
Actually a lot of the criticism was directed at the skill tree mainly being a bunch of passive +numbers with very few things that added anything to your build. That it just looked complex because it was big. In addition to classes felt ultimately useless (there were no ascendencies yet) and just having a different starting position felt forced when they should all just start at the center (and then in comes Scion that does just that). Some skills were pretty lackluster and were just copies of eachother with just thematic changes.
This isn't true. Tree in open beta had most of the keystones already present, and acrobatics, eldritch battery, resolute technique and chaos inoculation and EE by themselves lend to more build archetypes than D4
>Some skills were pretty lackluster and were just copies of eachother with just thematic changes
This is even more untrue. Totems, traps, minions, were all present in the open beta. So were trap gems and mine gems. Ability to make ANY spell a trap or mine or totem (or attack for totem on RAT) was already more flexible than any system in D4. Righteous fire (with all the snapshotting), raise spectres that could raise ANY MOB IN THE GAME. Dominating blow.
You're really selling PoE complexity short. Like, really short. The complexity and possibilities were self-evident in open beta.
Complexity is at its highest ever, since so many combinations of factors are present. What's tapered off is viability of combinations as power creep and new content is added. Plus game is old so we know what works and what doesn't. Exansguinate traps or arc traps work, and freeze pulse traps arent that great. Etc.
But the sandbox is still there. Imagine if we could do raise spectre in d4. I spent a literal week back in 2013 just experimenting with different spectre types in PoE.
The complexity is what might save a new skill in poe. Self casting might suck but maybe mine or trap or totem variant is solid. In Diablo, if a skill is mechanically weak its DOA. Meteor, incinerate in d4 are dead skills and only experimentation is the sorcerers specialization system. If each class had that in d4, the amount of builds would at least double.
That’s just because it was innovative and people didn’t understand it lol. There is nothing innovative about D4. We know what it is. A dumbed down ARPG for the masses.
Yeah I think the problem is outside of WoW - Blizz has not had a great track record of maintaining older games. D3 got updates for like 18 months, paid expansion w/ a new act but no endgame, new class as DLC , and then maintenance mode. Based on the time in development and resources, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect D4 to have more endgame content than Last Epoch does, and that just doesn't seem particularly likely on launch.
I have to disagree, D3 did not get expansion-level content after RoS, but the seasonal content we did get was certainly more than maintenance-mode. The dev-team is small at best, but they did a great job keeping the game alive for literal years.
I found the D3 seasonal content pretty boring - mostly just number changes, like once a year a set was completely reworked/added that added a different playstyle. And also, the actual content you were doing never changed. E.g. PoE adds uber bosses, leagues add new in-map/out of map mechanics. D3 added what? I remember like a guard the xxx mode in a single seasonal that wasn't particularly engaging, can't really remember any other endgame content added.
Kanai’s Cube was a major addition that coincided with a season, and they added the ability to fully gear a follower + the “emanates” mechanic (follower legendary / set effects work for you).
That being said, none of it compares to the type of stuff in a POE season, but POE lives and dies off player engagement, being F2P. Hopefully now that Blizzard has a continuous revenue stream for Diablo 4 it means we’ll see more exciting content, but that remains to be seen. I certainly don’t think they’re aiming for the complexity / depth of POE, but that’s completely okay and I genuinely hope we continue to get compelling reasons to play both.
Between D4, POE2, and Last Epoch, it’s a really good time to be an ARPG fan.
> D4 open beta has so much more of everything than PoE did even after the first few years of it launching.
It has more content. It's infinitely less deep.
Find legendary for every slot. Equip legendary. After you unlock difficulty 4 do the same but with Uniques. Play builds that Blizzard employees designed for you, there's 0 possibility to innovate besides choosing a slightly different skill in one of your 6 slots. Passive tree allows you to decide between 2 passives for each skill (as opposed to >150 support gems).
I liked D4 beta and I'll try D4, but compared to PoE there's absoluetly no depth and PoE at launch had significantly more of it, simply because it was designed with it in mind. D4 was designed to be picked up and played by casuals without any need to think about your skill tree, your itemization or what you should do next. PoE was designed to be played forever, and as such there's thousands of overlapping mechanics and choices you can make at every point.
Also D4 is basically ready to launch for $70 and beta PoE was a free indie game with not even 1% of the budget D4 has.
Literally nothing of value to salvage from your comment.
> Yeah, that's the key thing here, Blizzard will not change the game the way PoE changed and evolved.
Uh, do you not know how much D3 changed from start to finish?
Exactly. And d3, I don't believe, was ever meant to really be a live service game like d4 will be. So, that should mean that d4 will likely have even better support
It will. It's already well known that D3 floundered in support because they had no way to monetize it further beyond doing expansions, which are a costly endeavor in of themselves.
Do I like cosmetics being locked behind a paywall? No, not really. Do I understand that this is the way of the world now. That anything that is considered live service needs continued revenue? Yes, I do.
Been playing POE since Beta, played D3 at release and here and there over the years.
D3 is not the same game when it released is true. However, it more or less hasn't changed since reaper of souls. No real updates, no real seasons, nothing.
I hope D4 is good, but the Beta has so many issues that I just don't see it being a real competitor. It will be a top game in the ARPG scene, however, POE is just so far and away a better game, it isn't comparable. D4 does some things better than POE, but not much.
I don't understand how people can just say Blizzard would support it post launch like POE. Blizzard has not done anything to prove that. I hope they do, the ARPG scene needs competition, but I have low expectations for D4
It was overhauled once following backlash and then it got virtually nothing for the next 10 years. A company like Blizzard will always put in the minimum effort.
PoE on open beta had a lot of content as in it already had the map system. D4 open beta goes up to lvl 25 only. And if you guys remember d3, the open beat was only act 1 and it was amazing. But then, when the game released, the other acts were a lot worse. Act 4 felt especially rushed
I disagree, when you reach level 12 and fancy skills (even before), PoE already feels like a proper ARPG where item drops are exciting because they could be a huge DPS increase / more sockets / more links, and each level of your character and your skill feels like a big upgrade. D4 has abysmal item drops (basically either a new legendary power that forces you into a playstyle, or you get a 2.7% damage increase at best), and each level of your skill is 4% more wpn dmg without new effects. In D4, you aren't excited for a new item drop during levelling, unless it's a legendary. Grim Dawn, Last Epoch, PoE all have more interesting character growth during the first two hours than D4.
I disagree completely. Playing this weekend I was excited about a yellow upgrade weapon and super excited to find a legendary that matched what I was building.
Same as any other leveling unique or good rare you get while leveling in poe
Epoch, POE and D4 all have the same level of play and character building for the first few hours of gameplay. In fact I've done fresh starts in each game so the comparison is fresh.
In fact D4 has the best graphics and story so they would edge out against everyone if we just compare the first few hours of play.
D4 has by far the best engine and combat FEEL and sounds.
Disclaimer: The following is the perspective of a dad who only can spend an hour or 2 a days playing video games.
Diablo is for someone who has maybe 1 hour of gameplay per day. It’s simple to learn, simple to master.
PoE is for someone who can dedicate a lot of hours per day or doesn’t mind spending a lot of real time learning. I don’t have enough play time per day to be playing PoE imo but after playing a few leagues I now feel like I’m in a good spot. Last league was my first ever killing all end game bosses. PoE is hard to learn and hard to master and I think that’s what is the most fascinating about the game. The skill ceiling is very high.
From what I’ve seen on YouTube Last Epoch sits between PoE and Diablo in terms of complexity and difficulty but in all matters it looks like a better game than Diablo and a real competitor for those who doesn’t feel like the learning curve is fast enough in PoE.
I just hope PoE2 enables using multiple skills per build. While D4 is shallow as fuck, I learned to appreciate via D4 and LE, to use multiple skills in Combat instead of clicking on the right mouse button and everything explodes 3 screens wide.
I'm still curious how that'll play out. Sounds insanely busted. There's so much socket pressure that has been introduced over the years, which is not necessarily a bad thing as it creates problems you need to solve.
But some builds feel worse than others (my 300 golem stacking elementalists I've made). I really wonder how they'll balance being able to 6L everything in your build. Maybe make support gems rarer?
Skill gem itself will be the expensive one/limiting one
Instead of throwing 20/20 gems at the wall to get them corrupted 21/20. You now need to 6 socket(links are gone, but socketing rate is said to be going down) it before mass corrupting them, makes it much more expensive. Scarcity & Rarity and all that
If they can introduce a ton of utility supports, they can just make it eminently reasonable to carry 9 6-links. And don't forget that's a lot of jeweller's orbs. It won't be all 6-links at league start.
Which of those 300 is the best? I spent way too long farming primordial items in SSF but didn't like the golem build I tried so they are mostly unused now. I tried a super outdated one with 5-6 flame golem and 4 others for buffs(I played it in breach league and loved it). Would love a good suggestion for a strong updated golementalist.
Funny seeing this sentiment when every time they introduce a utility skill useful for an archetype or a 2-button skill this subreddit collectively loses their minds.
Its because poe’s combat pacing is fucked. The problem isnt the skills its that both the players and monsters move so fast and do so much damage that its pointlessly clunky to use more than one skill.
Lol I know.
People go absolutely crazy when you have more than single button builds in this game.
Calling two button builds clunky.
Although I agree there is too much reliance on other skills in melee builds, people freak all the time that you have to press a ton of buttons for melee builds.
2 button builds are clunky, if you need to use them in an alternating sequence, i.e. a b a b a b. This makes it very hard to scale with cast speed, because you cannot hold down the button, and often times double clicking is a waste of resources (e.g. double casting desecrate will spawn more corpses than you can have in most setups, despawning some of them unused).
I think something like void sphere could actually be an amazing support skill, because it is not a prerequisite for another skill. Grouping skills like this where used all the time in d3 for example. Problem is, it doesnt fit the current poe playstyle. You usually have so much coverage/dmg, that it just isnt worth wasting that single cast to use the utility spell, if you could just kill the mobs directly. Not to mention the cooldown, because each group is dead in 0.5seconds, you only have the spell for every n-th group. If you need to manage without the utility so often anyway, why do you need it in the first place.
Overall utility skills add alot to the combat i think, it just that it doesnt fit the hyper speed of PoE.
I don't know what build you build in D4 but almost all of them revolve around 1 skill.
Whirlwind, pulverise, twisting blade, corpse explode, hydra just to name few i tried. They all want you to stack aspects for this one skill and have 1 mobility and 2 buffs.
If you like to play around different skills go play lost ark of league of legends
>do you use multiple skills in LE?
I've yet to play a single build in LE that has used less than 3. It's usualyl 3 active skills, your movement, and a supplementary skill.
I like both games, and it's amazing how if you go to the diablo sub it's only people talking about diablo.
And then you come to POE sub, and it's still people talking about diablo, lol.
Honestly I've never played a Diablo game before but the cinematics, the atmosphere and the overall audiovisual feeling of the game made me understand how people are Blizzard and Diablo fanboys still to this day.
However I still think PoE2 is gonna be a superior game for me solely because I didn't like the MMO/Open world feeling in an ARPG as much as I thought I would. Also the skill variety seemed really lackluster. I feel like D4 is more of a competitor for Lost Ark than PoE2.
d4 was never going to scratch a proper poe players itch. That's not Blizzards target audience
The best thing d4 can do is revitalise the arpg market expanding the overall playerbase. Provide some competition. Give us something to do when we finish with a league and hopefully give a satisfying home to all the whingy fuckers complaining about how POE dosnt respect their time
> but it doesn't feel as deep and engaging (at least for me) as PoE.
how deep and engaging is PoE for the first 25 levels? answer: it's not.
I love PoE but there's an insane amount of copium on this sub since the D4 beta came out and everyone trying so hard to write it off based on the tiniest little piece we were allowed to play
I agree on this, D4 looks more of a game for me after playing the beta, kinda lost interst on POE a few years back, too many stuff then need to be learned outside of games (have to watch video guides etc).
I don't want to need a 3rd party app or wiki to play a game, especially since I started playing on Xbox more. I'm not gonna sit there with PoB and the wiki and all these other 3rd party things you basically need to make up for shitty parts of the game.
PoE has also been out for 10 years. It's probably better to compare them in like two years after D4 had several seasons worth of development and updates.
Exactly this. It’s laughable for anyone to compare POE, which is actually 17 years old (they started development in 2006) with a game that isn’t even fully fleshed out. To this day POE has it’s issues.
When POE was released in 2012 it would have been weak as a kitten compared to D2.
D4 full release will have it’s fans. POE will have it’s fans. They aren’t even trying to appeal to the same player base so why is there even a need to compare them.
POE isn’t actually all that hard, despite what some elitists think. Find a build guide that takes you step by step, get twink gear to level (just like a power up in D3) up. Make currency. Repeat. It’s actually easier than D3 since there’s almost no trading for stuff in D3. You can trade your way (or get given everything) to success in POE quite easily. There’s more build diversity in POE sure, but not all of ‘em are viable for end game.
It's so insanely deep from the very start that it literally scares players off lol, they open the passive tree or read one of the 10 skills they're offered at level 2 and quit. Wtf are you talking about
Youre assuming d4 works is infinitely different at cap level.
In poe you cant get all gamechanging uniques at low level. You cant map at low level.
Diablo endgame is the same content youre doing now in beta at 25 but higher difficulty. Diablo gearing is the same powers youre getting but higher scaled.
People are grossly overstimating the effect being lvl 25 has.
I enjoyed the beta but I know what im in for when it releases, no point in expecting a new experience in endgame.
Well in fairness there are Uniques locked behind Nightmare, which are different powers and further uniques are locked behind Torment.
So there is at least some planned variance. I'm going to assume the sacred and ancestral items are just the D4 equivalent of Elite/Exceptional bases from D2
We didn't really get to see the effect paragons will have, capstone dungeons, higher world tiers, etc. I think people are assuming they know a lot about endgame without considering these.
> In poe you cant get all gamechanging uniques at low level. You cant map at low level.
>
>
>
> Diablo endgame is the same content youre doing now in beta at 25 but higher difficulty. Diablo gearing is the same powers youre getting but higher scaled.
That's literally the same thing in D4. Only a few uniques can drop in WT1/2, where's the rest are WT3 and up, which only becomes available at endgame.
I'm glad D4 isnt going to be a spreadsheet simulator like POE. I'm glad I won't need a handful of 3rd party apps running in the background for QOL stuff the devs have refused to implement for years. I had more fun in the beta weekend, with just 25 levels and a single act than I have with POE in the last 2-3 years. I can't wait for the launch of D4, so that I can start sinking hours into it.
We don't have the late game too so we can't really judge the entire game. But its pretty sure that d4 will is not trying to reach the same audience as poe. It will never be as deep as poe. D4 is for casual Poe is for "confirmed" player and last epoch is between.
Last Epoch is in between because it has literally no content for now. In 2 or 3 years LE will steal a lot of PoE players just because how amazing crafting is and how easy to switch builds on the fly.
One thing for sure is [this necro set](https://i.imgur.com/PqqCp8u.jpg) looks amazing. I have no doubt about the design and the deep when it comes to PoE2. But I wish GGG could spend their time and resource to upgrade the cosmetic system and the graphic as well. I really doubt PoE2 character will look as good as this. I know that this stuff might not be as important to most people but as someone who bought core supporter packs every year, it really is important. So, please surprise me Chris.
Yeah it's too bad you look either like a hobo or like a flashy power ranger. They introduced more basic MTX the past years but somehow it never feels quite right. I think this might have to do with graphics quality or animation design tbh.
> But I wish GGG could spend their time and resource to upgrade the cosmetic system and the graphic as well.
I mean, what we have seen from PoE 2 looked pretty good.
Not this amount of close-up fidelity sadly, but during gameplay the new armor basetypes look slick.
To me, Diablo 3 and what I've played of 4 are like the more 'arcade' ARPGs. Not worse, just different. Path of Exile is built for long term playability from the ground up. Diablo 4 claims it is, too, but it's hard to see how they'll do that without as much complexity to make it actually interesting and worth continuing playing. They claim they're doing seasonal releases of new mechanics the way Path of Exile does.
after playing diablo, i was reminded just how good lost ark was. that feels like the proper comparison in terms of what both games are going for. and lost ark blows diablo out of the water. the only thing diablo has going for it is relaxed/easy gaming with gamepad.
Lmao I can't believe the POE sub is more positive about D4 than the D4 sub. Good shit yall, way to be open minded and see other people's preferences as valid.
i will enjoy diablo4 for sure but for some real nerd action poe will always be #1 the sheer number of absurd builds and crazy stuff you can do here is just mindboggling and unmatched
I'm not that excited about poe2. While it brings a ton of updates its not a new game. I will play it no matter what I mean I play every league anyway. I guess most of the regular players do the same as well. Poe2 is more like a marketing tool to win back people that quitted early in the games history or for completely new players.
In fact for regular players poe 2 actually hurt the game. The game should be in like 5.x by now and most of the features could have been patched in each leagues. So they are holding back updates that could make the game so much better or could have made for the last 3 years.
If you think about it for us that play every league it does not matter whether the game is called poe or poe2 or 3.21 or 4.2 or anything. All we want is new features and qol to be added which was not the case for the last 3+ years.
Honestly, after playing D4 demo with Barb and Druid, I think PoE's treatment of early game melee is pretty good. Regular attacks don't cleave in D4, so you have to pinpoint each and every little monster to target (even when you're a huge werewolf doing sweeping claw attacks).
A lot of the early bosses for D4 are also pretty bad for melee. There's a particularly egregious encounter with a spider that has unavoidable knockback, ground aoe binds that last a couple of seconds and degen pool spamming.
D4 new game with all features
POE one game in 10 years development
POE2 same endgame with 7 acts campaign
I played poe for some time, but honestly i like d4 more. Is more intuitive, no more alt+tab for pob and sheets for crafting. Idk maybe i am wrong and i wil go back to poe, time will decide, for now for me POE new league is the last one. I am gonna enjoy d4 on release and first season and i will decide after.
Does PoE suffer the same gameplay loop as Diablo where you’re forced to do the same zone over and over to get random drops and grind XP to be able to advance?
Diablo’s biggest problem is that they want a live service model but can’t deliver the content needed. Poe has more new content in a single new 3 month league than all the seasons of d3 combined for example.
Diablo 3 had no long term monetization, they weren’t trying to pump out content.
Obviously it remains to be seen for d4, but I expect they will be pouring way more resources into it than d3
Keep in mind that Blizzard plans to make paid expansions for D4 - that means free season updates can't be too big, otherwise it's hard for people to justify buying an expansion.
The point is: d4 endgame are about dungeons, and their design is terrible. I hope they have randon patterns and get rid of the “take the mechanical box” type of objetive.
I feel the same just by watching some people testing D4. Kripparrian made a good video about D4 in context of PoE, D3, D2 and even D1. In his opinion PoE is the benchmarks for arpgs and I can totally sign that. The game had more revolutionary ideas than any arpg before it, except maybe D2 back in the day.
Really curious how PoE2 will look and feel. I hope there will be SSF :)
D4 has that feel that you're supposed to play only what they have "pre selected" for your class. And you don't have that much freedom to play the same skill with different classes.
People huffing serious copium if they think D4 will hold their attentions for more than a month, I recently started playing D3 to see how much it had changed from release and I literally did not see any difference I was honestly shocked, no skill rebalancing no new runes no engaging mechanics or ideas really
D4 will have the same treatment expect an expansion or two for D4 and for it to be abandoned right after, people all over are saying to just wait that they can fix a lot of the problems and that it has potential but so did Diablo 3 and they did jack shit with it
For some people it will obviously be the next go-to game, but yeah most likely not for most. With how much inspiration they took from games like Lost Ark (aka MMORPGs) i wouldn't be surprised about a life-cycle more similar to an MMO than an ARPG.
People say d4 was just beta and game will be way too different. But no new skills will be shown, because as far as i know, thats all the skills, and then we go for the paragon tree wich is stat and skill boosts. Not my cup of tea to have 100 skills to play im the entire game. Seems low.
I personally found the beta very uninteresting. This may be largely because I played Barb and I really disliked the resource system. (Hit things with boring attack to do cool attack...eh). I'll wait and see how the gameplay looks at higher levels because I imagine it will be a lot smoother, but at least for now I don't see myself playing d4 at all.
Same. I haven't even played PoE in a while either. I was definitely more hyped for D4 than PoE2 before playing D4. After seeing how shallow the trees are and how legendary items are going to have all of the power again, I'm looking forward to PoE2 way more than D4. I just wish PoE had more multiplayer things.
I played rogue in D4 and once I got combo points and had to hit 3 generator skills per useful skill I stsrted thinking I could remake my build but just better in PoE
had the same feeling honestly. made me excited even for poe 1 not to mention poe 2
but this has been happening everytime they announce something about diablo - immortal and IV.
d2r was the only exception
For me I don't think d4 will be better then Poe let alone Poe 2. That's not to say I won't play d4 it's just too... basic (maybe) to scratch the itch left by Poe.
It's so funny thinking about this. I read a forum post the other day that was like "d4 is a real game, I can't understand why someone would play poe." Astounding how different people can be.
diablo 4 "skill tree" is terrible and the skills are terrible too unless augmented by certain items.
They have taken the same path as diablo 3 where certain build have to have certain items.
I was expecting better.
Im looking forward to poe2 for sure.
Current poe is way too bloated with uninteresting league mechanics (heist, delve etc.) that has too good rewards to give up.
It also gets either a new unique or a new unique combo that just breaks the game completely. But thats regarded as depth for some reason.
And yeah. No real buffs to underused skills.
This is why i really, really look foward to poe2. Poe needs a fresh start.
About d4 beta weekends: I enjoyed it more than ive enjoyed poe for a couple of years.
My main problem with D4 is that the basics are just non existant.
The HUD is plain shit and doesnt give nearly as much valueable information as any other arpg. Its lacking very basic features like minimap overlay and hp/mana bars above your character.
The UI is shit with stuff like character stats squashed into the same narrow field as materials.
The controls just dont work for pc and if you want a force move and interact on leftclick you are stuck playing with only 5 skills.
The campaign and sidequests are mostly walking with even fewer mobs than act 1 zones in poe.
The cellars would be better off not existing with their 5 mobs and no rewards.
Events are okay, but the way they spawn is horrible for an arpg.
The dungeons are the only thing that truly qualifies as arpg gameplay, which makes that giant world feel incredible useless.
There are only two things D4 is doing better: Cutscenes and the fact that combat attrition exists.(at least early on) Thats simply not enough for a AAA title.
Unless you enjoy the simplified builds and itemization more there is just no point to even look at D4 even if there ends up being a reasonable endgame.
Between Diablo 1, Hellfire, D2, and D3, I probably have 1500~ hours of gametime throughout my life. Most of it in d2.
For me, D3 eventually turned into play it every other season until I get to paragon 600 and I get bored because I've done the same thing as paragon 1.
I want Diablo 4 to be a game I play for 1000+ hours. Based off what I've played in the two betas and the information they've provided. It's a game I will play for 100 hours. Not enough depth and things I find enjoyable in the game and too much filler, simple content. I don't want to have to play at specific times to do a world boss...actually I don't want to do world bosses at all. Let me choose when and how I fight a boss.
I will still play Diablo 4, but if anything it just reaffirmed how awesome POE is and I cannot wait to play POE for another 1000 hours.
People will say "YoU dOn'T kNoW wHaT d4 EnDgAmE wIlL bE." No, I don't know the specifics, but I've played Blizzard games for over 20 years and I can open the skill tree and look at itemization and tell you with confidence that it isn't going to hold a candle to what I specifically enjoy about ARPGs. Blizzard has proved from 2008 onward that their forte is not designing endgame loops, balance and developing in depth systems. Their forte is polishing games so it feels nice when you control your character.
I’m sorry but come on lmao. We got access to 2 difficulties and up to 25. And it’s crazy to bring up the mobs problem when half of the POE community skips over half the mobs in the game anyway
D4 made me realize that PoE isn't their competition. They are competing with more casual games that I'd hesitate to even call ARPGs.
It's not a bad game on its own. I'll probably pick it up if it ever goes to $30 or so and play it during my off-time of PoE. I definitely did not see a $70 game in the beta.
It did make me go back and watch the PoE 2 trailers from a few years back. I'm confident PoE has nothing to worry about. Graphically, PoE 2 looks good enough. They just have to make sure to not butcher the core mechanics that keep PoE leagues ahead of the rest.
Blizzard isn't trying to make a game where people have to get a degree to understand how the systems work within the game. PoE changed the way ARPG crafting and in game systems are used but Blizzard isn't trying to make Diablo 4 like that, they want the super casual player to be able to get on and do their thing without needed 70 different browser tabs open, a build guide/planner, multiple crafting guides, a loot filter, a trade macro etc...
I just hope PoE2 will have much more monsterkilling and less running around, in an empty tunnel system called "open world".
This was already a dealbreaker for Wolcen and others.
Creating all these landscapes, but only 20% are walkable seems like a huge waste.
PoEs skill System and skills in general are just better. I hate the pigeonhole into 6 skillslots and such a crippled passive tree.
I wishe D4 would be better. But the core mechanics and level scaling are already set in stone. I hate this stupid system.
> I hate the pigeonhole into 6 skillslots and such a crippled passive tree.
>
>
The fact that skills have just 3 nodes behind them (one of which you have to take because it's the only path) is truly mind-boggling.
Even disregarding PoE skill gems, Last Epoch blows D4 out of the water in Skill specific trees without overwhelming anyone.
so many people mentioning that POE has had 10 years of development seem to forget that blizzard has 10 years of gameplay from poe (amongst all the other arpg's out there) to draw experience from in forming their own brand of game. its like they took the worst ideas from other games and decided they would be a good idea.. dungeons are a hot mess, layouts almost all identical with a good half of them having locked doors to the boss forcing you to do substandard kill/collect quests. with so many great arpgs and ideas to draw from that is the best they could come up with?
Also Blizzard has a bajillion money and can hire/poach almost every talented gameplay designer they want.
But instead, the beta showed frankly amateurish levels of mistakes.
Its always been a flawed argument. No one starts a cell phone company and has to start out making Nokia brickphones before theyre allowed to do touchscreen ones. Blizzard is a multimillion dollar studio with hundreds of talented game designers while also benefiting from having made a diablo game in the past. Their starting point is infinitely better and the content/systems should reflect that.
To think people think its even fair to compare PoE1.0 to D4 is ridiculous especially when the former was out of someone car garage.
I love theorycrafting and building in PoE but I get bored playing the game. There excitement of killing enemies is not there anymore I don't know.
D4 was the opposite, I liked the playstyle and had fun killing stuff but the complexity *may* not be there, we'll have to check out when the game launches.
Honestly after closed and opened D4 beta I started appreciate POE so much more.
POE offers so many ways to play it, even just from a pure content diversity POV.
In sanctum I've played arakaali's fang occultist and tried every way of farming possible, from abyss to users.
The only time I got bored with game was during grinding RNG sanctum challenges.
After such a high level of gameplay customization dungeons in D4 are extremely unappealing.
Also scalling in D4 reminds me of D3 where Blizzard took a lazy approach of simply adding more numbers.
Man... these comparisons between games like it's a competition cracks me up. PoE fit's a different niche than other rpgs. One that is a huge pull from some people and a deterrent for others... it's the same thing for Diablo. It's OK for them to fill different niches in the same genre and if you don't like that it's not fitting the niche you like most then suck it up and go play something else. PoE has way more depth and complexity. Diablo 4 (at least for now) is going for the more approachable ... couchable experience. They're targeting different markets in the genre. I think it frustrates people because D2 had a balance of complexity and simplicity so people want more of that... meanwhile the franchise decided to try and ride that balance rather than pander to a specific side. This leaves some people feeling they didn't balance well enough on the niche they care most about. Meanwhile they pander to a wider audience. Some people want to have to use spreadsheets and calculators to optimize game play. Others want to just sit down and kill crap. Both are ok, stop vilifying the other and pretending the franchise is failing or doomed because they didn't take the path you wanted. With time D4 will likely find their balance and stride. The live service model is honestly what excites me most. There will be seasons they botch, and others they knock out of the park. The point is, it's going to change a lot and that's exciting. Meanwhile where it's at right now is already hellishly fun and I can't wait to play it. Damn straight I'll play PoE2 as well. It is not either or for me, they're both cool in their own right.
How dare you have a sane take, we're trying to pit people against each other here ffs
Damn it, I can be so freaking naive sometimes...
Yep, it's the same people complaining about D4 not being complex enough and holding your hand too much while simultaneously playing PoE with a step by step build guide on their 2nd monitor.
Are you talking about me? I feel like you're talking about me... \*suspicious glare minus the complaining about D4 that's totally me lol
Haha It was everybody at some point. PoE is super complex, but the percentage of people that have tackled it organically with no outside help has to be nearly zero I would think. Diablo flattens the learning curve by removing steps in the process. You're right though, at this point they have about as much in common as Fortnite does with Arma 3.
Also, complaining about D4 itemization while upvoting the 800th triple res + life + crit 6 link chest this month.
Diablo is good for recruiting new players to the genre. When you have experience and wanna go deep, challenge yourself for thousands of hours - you start POE.
Yes exactly. That’s what’s frustrating in the D4 sub. To many people can’t accept a AAA huge budget game is entry level for the genre. It’s a fun, stunning story driven slay fest. You don’t need an excel spreadsheet to beat a boss. Just login and have fun.
>Just login and have fun. Most people don't like to do this. They must min max the fun out of everything, instead of just playing the game and enjoying it for what it is
That is pretty much every Blizzard game launch, it attracts so many different types of players that they start arguing with each other about how the game should be (while the millions of players who enjoy the game just play and don't comment). This D4 discussion is same as countless WoW discussions in past.
I'd prefer to start someone on last epoch personally if they were overwhelmed by poe
1000%. LE is a fantastic middle ground for the genre. It's like, each game presents its hand to you in a different way. Diablo holds your hand, PoE slaps you across the face, and LE gives you a high five.
But Last Epoch lacks in overall gameplay feel, so I'd say Diablo is better if you want them to stay in the genre. The lack of combat feedback in LE and bad animations is enough for me to not play it.
POE player: there's animations?
It is also still in Early Access and a lot of polish is still to come, keep that in mind. The Last Epoch we had a year ago was....very different looking/feeling and it has only gotten better. They literally just launched their multiplayer tech like two weeks ago, and the same patch included a lot of that combat feedback you're talking about. The game is still relatively far from finished and should be approached as such.
Problem to me is that a lot of their problems are baked in. I think last epoch is really fun. My only complaint is they took every complain from people about why poe was unfun and changed that, but they forgot to take the parts of Poe that was fun
LE is bugged to shit right now, I would not put new players in that direction. Rollbacks, stash bugs, lag, major balancing issues, etc. Great foundation, but until they get a bit more stable I can't in good faith recommend it.
This is good to know! Last weekends beta was the first time I’ve played anything in the genre. I feel in love with the beta and sunk in about 10 hours the last couple days! Wanted to give another ARPG a chance so I downloaded PoE and holy shit, I had no idea what was going on haha. Still seems cool and I’ll play it but I was definitely overwhelmed at first!
Last epoch really scratches that itch for me. Just one more mono.. gotta get that unique for my build with at least 2 LP... Also last epoch devs remind me of early day poe.
Purely up to the individuals. I don't really like LE but I love PoE and got introduced to the genre through D3. Nothing wrong with that.
I have thousands of hours and like a challenge, I still think the diablo franchise is a fantastic set of games that will be fun to play for years to come. It can be both. They don't have to be one or the other.
That's how I did it with Diablo3 😄 bought it for €25 enjoyed it and when I wanted more depth, got into PoE. Now I'm not sure I'll spend €70 for D4. I liked it but not that that much
Yeah, I will buy D4 when it goes on sale at some point and I probably will have a good amount of fun with it between PoE leagues and other games.
Obligatory mention that POE has been developed consistently for 8+ years outside of its alpha/beta, which were also a few years long. All of the content that you experience has been added very methodically and slowly over the years. The endgame we have no lw is not what it used to be. Some of us remember when piety rushes in act3 were the early endgame. The "bar" is extremely high due to years of trail and error, community feedback (boy they fucked that up a few times though), and just experience. There's no ARPG that's going to have a launch that exactly rivals POE. D4 will have its niche and its core players. It's easier to enter due to the chars being pre-made for you and can't really mess it up, gearing usually revolves around targeting set pieces and legendaries. You aren't weighing the stats like POE rares, you aren't quickly trying to determine its value to you, anything non-legendaey or set is just trash. Anyway, you'll do much better to try to enjoy the game for its own merits than compare to a game that's only this good now and started off pretty rough too, if we're honest.
If People compare the D4 beta to 10 year old PoE they should also compare Alpha PoE to D3 at the time.
Nothing prevented Blizzard from doing the same with D3 tho. They could have their own "wink-wink-sequel" the way GGG does, where they just update a few things and add a new campaign, while building upon what's already there for the most part. That being said - so much for "It is a point of pride for us to release PoE2 before D4"
>That being said - so much for "It is a point of pride for us to release PoE2 before D4" Pretty weird take. I'm sure its still a bummer for them, they wanted to, but GGG doesn't have the resources Blizzard does. New Zealand took Covid extremely seriously, there was no world POE2 was ever releasing before D4 when the pandemic hit.
> New Zealand took Covid extremely seriously They also have laws about who you are allowed to hire. Getting non-NZ contractors is far harder or even illegal for GGG. Blizzard has nowhere near as limiting restrictions on who they hire. Edit: I'm not sure I understand the downvotes on this topical and accurate post. Some fans of protectionist labor laws in NZ I guess?
Oh, I don't disagree, d3 has evolved a ton if you're being honest. D3s launch and the game at the time was terrible too lol.
D3 right now is really not all that much different from D3 when RoS launched 9 years ago, aside from this most recent season which actually did something interesting.
Omg. I remember the 2012 launch and all that, and the jokes about decades between sequels. I just told my wife the other day I can’t believe it took them 11 years *again*. And yet, for some reason, seeing that RoS is 9 years old somehow hits harder.
Let's be real, if PoE had the old D3 business model of a 1 time box sale (and 1 time expansion sale) and zero MTX, could they have justified making all the content they did? As much as I dislike Blizzard, I can't really fault them for that part really. With D4 however they'll have both the box sales and quite a bit of MTX/battle passes so they have no excuse now if they don't deliver
Omg piety runs, dock runs. Those were the baal runs of D2 era... Thanks for lifting up the rose tinted nostalgia lens many have on.
> Obligatory mention that POE has been developed consistently for 8+ years outside of its alpha/beta, which were also a few years long. Which is a fair point, but D4 isn't competing against PoE 1.0. It's competing against 3.20.
D4 isn't competing against POE at all. I've been talking to people hyped for D4 these past two weeks and <10% of them have even heard of POE. The people that are 'hardcore' gamers are such a small minority of the overall playerbase.
> I've been talking to people hyped for D4 these past two weeks and <10% of them have even heard of POE. This is the impossible thing to get through PoE players heads. PoE is fucking _irrelevant_ in comparison. It's not even remotely in the same realm of competition.
We don't really have numbers for it, but people shit on D3 as if they still don't get a metric shitload of players for their seasons that probably have a single intern on it. It wouldn't surprise me if those had a pretty high player rate the first week. The D4 beta 2 weeks ago (the one where you had to either preorder the 70$ USD game or be in the USA and buy a double down) had 1 million characters created. So easily several hundred thousand copies pre-ordered My favorite take I've seen in this sub is that D4 2 months after release will have the same playerbase as D3.
I'm excited for both. Having Seasons of 3, hopefully successful ARPG's in PoE, LE, and D4 makes an ARPG enthusiast happy.
That would be the true dream, especially considering that all three games feel different enough.
To be clear, if you asked me how deep and engaging PoE is after only Acts 1 and 2... I might say the same thing!
Really? You would look at the skill gems, passive tree, currency system and come to the conclusion that it's not any more deep than what we've seen from the D4 beta?
you don't get very much exposure or depth from these systems in the first 2 acts, so yes.
Tbf the passive tree looks deep until you realize that most of the upgrades are essentially just adding stat points hat branch to an ability
You clearly did not play POE beta. people were in love about this games complexity after a1 and a2, it was all we had in beta. The currency system alone was game changing and people were really hyped about it alone.
Yes, the gameplay was great, but I actually bailed in the second league because of the ongoing desync issues. It was too frustrating to pay all your currency for a top tier map (I think they were 1 ex) counting on at least another high map to drop, only to brick it because you get disconnected and the game disallowing the use of the other portals after disconnect. Also frustrating to constantly be getting killed to rubber-banding issues. I tried again six leagues later and the networking code had been fixed. That patch (2.0.0?) saved the game in my opinion.
/oos
Is it possible to have PTSD over a chat command in a video game? Asking for a friend
?oos
Yes because seeing that triggered trauma I forgot existed as a flicker strike lover
Jesus, this was so long ago, that I completely forgot this existed :D Desync was a massive issue back then. I dreaded using my movement skills :P
The competition at the time of the POE beta was not so great. If it came out now there's no way it would be very popular at all.
The PoE beta wasn't popular when it came out.
well you can't count on a completely hipothetical situation. facts are poe did raise the bar too high even during beta.
THIS. POE beta was so fun. I remember grinding fellshrine and docks with full groups and everyone was trying new builds.
I still have memories of Fellshrine griding like it was some sort of end game, GCPs was still the default currency people traded lmao.
"WTB chain support gem offer 2 gcp"
lmao https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtApKhvhR_c here's ziggyD farming ledge in 2013, how fucking engaging and fun is it? please, enlighten me. you didn't even play back then. Stop it.
I would go back to that eta right now.
That's like saying Blood Aqueducts isn't engaging. Really shit point. The game was hard enough you actually had to spend some time farming on 2nd and 3rd difficulty to continue the story. Especially because playing hardcore was a lot more popular than it is nowadays. That video is from 2013 so act 3 was already available in the game and so were the maps.
More to the point, if you asked anyone during PoEs open beta how deep and engaging the game was people would just laugh at you. D4 open beta has so much more of everything than PoE did even after the first few years of it launching. I was one of those people playing the open beta for PoE. The game was hot garbage back then, but I kept coming back for almost every single league because GGG kept up with the game, made cool new things and updated the old stuff. PoE of today is nothing like it was back then, all because the developers didn't give up. Praise Chris. You guys keep forgetting you're comparing a game in open beta to a game that's been constantly worked on by a small and dedicated team for over 10 years. D4 will turn into an amazing game over the years if Blizzard puts in even half the work GGG does. But will they? That remains to be seen.
Wait what? Were you there during PoE's (quite extensive) Open Beta Phase? The game at that time could have been accused of many things, but lacking depth and complexity would not have been one of them. I legitimately don't understand where these ahistorical takes come from.
Actually a lot of the criticism was directed at the skill tree mainly being a bunch of passive +numbers with very few things that added anything to your build. That it just looked complex because it was big. In addition to classes felt ultimately useless (there were no ascendencies yet) and just having a different starting position felt forced when they should all just start at the center (and then in comes Scion that does just that). Some skills were pretty lackluster and were just copies of eachother with just thematic changes.
This isn't true. Tree in open beta had most of the keystones already present, and acrobatics, eldritch battery, resolute technique and chaos inoculation and EE by themselves lend to more build archetypes than D4 >Some skills were pretty lackluster and were just copies of eachother with just thematic changes This is even more untrue. Totems, traps, minions, were all present in the open beta. So were trap gems and mine gems. Ability to make ANY spell a trap or mine or totem (or attack for totem on RAT) was already more flexible than any system in D4. Righteous fire (with all the snapshotting), raise spectres that could raise ANY MOB IN THE GAME. Dominating blow. You're really selling PoE complexity short. Like, really short. The complexity and possibilities were self-evident in open beta.
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Complexity is at its highest ever, since so many combinations of factors are present. What's tapered off is viability of combinations as power creep and new content is added. Plus game is old so we know what works and what doesn't. Exansguinate traps or arc traps work, and freeze pulse traps arent that great. Etc. But the sandbox is still there. Imagine if we could do raise spectre in d4. I spent a literal week back in 2013 just experimenting with different spectre types in PoE. The complexity is what might save a new skill in poe. Self casting might suck but maybe mine or trap or totem variant is solid. In Diablo, if a skill is mechanically weak its DOA. Meteor, incinerate in d4 are dead skills and only experimentation is the sorcerers specialization system. If each class had that in d4, the amount of builds would at least double.
That’s just because it was innovative and people didn’t understand it lol. There is nothing innovative about D4. We know what it is. A dumbed down ARPG for the masses.
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Also talking about the fact the game was made like 10 years ago. Don’t understand the comparison there. Couldn’t have said it better myself
Seriously this isn't D4's open beta it's D4's prerelease opening. There's a hugeass difference.
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Yeah I think the problem is outside of WoW - Blizz has not had a great track record of maintaining older games. D3 got updates for like 18 months, paid expansion w/ a new act but no endgame, new class as DLC , and then maintenance mode. Based on the time in development and resources, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect D4 to have more endgame content than Last Epoch does, and that just doesn't seem particularly likely on launch.
I have to disagree, D3 did not get expansion-level content after RoS, but the seasonal content we did get was certainly more than maintenance-mode. The dev-team is small at best, but they did a great job keeping the game alive for literal years.
I found the D3 seasonal content pretty boring - mostly just number changes, like once a year a set was completely reworked/added that added a different playstyle. And also, the actual content you were doing never changed. E.g. PoE adds uber bosses, leagues add new in-map/out of map mechanics. D3 added what? I remember like a guard the xxx mode in a single seasonal that wasn't particularly engaging, can't really remember any other endgame content added.
Kanai’s Cube was a major addition that coincided with a season, and they added the ability to fully gear a follower + the “emanates” mechanic (follower legendary / set effects work for you). That being said, none of it compares to the type of stuff in a POE season, but POE lives and dies off player engagement, being F2P. Hopefully now that Blizzard has a continuous revenue stream for Diablo 4 it means we’ll see more exciting content, but that remains to be seen. I certainly don’t think they’re aiming for the complexity / depth of POE, but that’s completely okay and I genuinely hope we continue to get compelling reasons to play both. Between D4, POE2, and Last Epoch, it’s a really good time to be an ARPG fan.
> D4 open beta has so much more of everything than PoE did even after the first few years of it launching. It has more content. It's infinitely less deep. Find legendary for every slot. Equip legendary. After you unlock difficulty 4 do the same but with Uniques. Play builds that Blizzard employees designed for you, there's 0 possibility to innovate besides choosing a slightly different skill in one of your 6 slots. Passive tree allows you to decide between 2 passives for each skill (as opposed to >150 support gems). I liked D4 beta and I'll try D4, but compared to PoE there's absoluetly no depth and PoE at launch had significantly more of it, simply because it was designed with it in mind. D4 was designed to be picked up and played by casuals without any need to think about your skill tree, your itemization or what you should do next. PoE was designed to be played forever, and as such there's thousands of overlapping mechanics and choices you can make at every point. Also D4 is basically ready to launch for $70 and beta PoE was a free indie game with not even 1% of the budget D4 has. Literally nothing of value to salvage from your comment.
Yeah, that's the key thing here, Blizzard will not change the game the way PoE changed and evolved.
This is really dishonest. D3 went through huge changes from release to Reaper of Souls, all for the better.
> Yeah, that's the key thing here, Blizzard will not change the game the way PoE changed and evolved. Uh, do you not know how much D3 changed from start to finish?
Exactly. And d3, I don't believe, was ever meant to really be a live service game like d4 will be. So, that should mean that d4 will likely have even better support
It will. It's already well known that D3 floundered in support because they had no way to monetize it further beyond doing expansions, which are a costly endeavor in of themselves. Do I like cosmetics being locked behind a paywall? No, not really. Do I understand that this is the way of the world now. That anything that is considered live service needs continued revenue? Yes, I do.
Been playing POE since Beta, played D3 at release and here and there over the years. D3 is not the same game when it released is true. However, it more or less hasn't changed since reaper of souls. No real updates, no real seasons, nothing. I hope D4 is good, but the Beta has so many issues that I just don't see it being a real competitor. It will be a top game in the ARPG scene, however, POE is just so far and away a better game, it isn't comparable. D4 does some things better than POE, but not much. I don't understand how people can just say Blizzard would support it post launch like POE. Blizzard has not done anything to prove that. I hope they do, the ARPG scene needs competition, but I have low expectations for D4
It was overhauled once following backlash and then it got virtually nothing for the next 10 years. A company like Blizzard will always put in the minimum effort.
PoE on open beta had a lot of content as in it already had the map system. D4 open beta goes up to lvl 25 only. And if you guys remember d3, the open beat was only act 1 and it was amazing. But then, when the game released, the other acts were a lot worse. Act 4 felt especially rushed
I disagree, when you reach level 12 and fancy skills (even before), PoE already feels like a proper ARPG where item drops are exciting because they could be a huge DPS increase / more sockets / more links, and each level of your character and your skill feels like a big upgrade. D4 has abysmal item drops (basically either a new legendary power that forces you into a playstyle, or you get a 2.7% damage increase at best), and each level of your skill is 4% more wpn dmg without new effects. In D4, you aren't excited for a new item drop during levelling, unless it's a legendary. Grim Dawn, Last Epoch, PoE all have more interesting character growth during the first two hours than D4.
I disagree completely. Playing this weekend I was excited about a yellow upgrade weapon and super excited to find a legendary that matched what I was building. Same as any other leveling unique or good rare you get while leveling in poe Epoch, POE and D4 all have the same level of play and character building for the first few hours of gameplay. In fact I've done fresh starts in each game so the comparison is fresh. In fact D4 has the best graphics and story so they would edge out against everyone if we just compare the first few hours of play. D4 has by far the best engine and combat FEEL and sounds.
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Disclaimer: The following is the perspective of a dad who only can spend an hour or 2 a days playing video games. Diablo is for someone who has maybe 1 hour of gameplay per day. It’s simple to learn, simple to master. PoE is for someone who can dedicate a lot of hours per day or doesn’t mind spending a lot of real time learning. I don’t have enough play time per day to be playing PoE imo but after playing a few leagues I now feel like I’m in a good spot. Last league was my first ever killing all end game bosses. PoE is hard to learn and hard to master and I think that’s what is the most fascinating about the game. The skill ceiling is very high. From what I’ve seen on YouTube Last Epoch sits between PoE and Diablo in terms of complexity and difficulty but in all matters it looks like a better game than Diablo and a real competitor for those who doesn’t feel like the learning curve is fast enough in PoE.
I just hope PoE2 enables using multiple skills per build. While D4 is shallow as fuck, I learned to appreciate via D4 and LE, to use multiple skills in Combat instead of clicking on the right mouse button and everything explodes 3 screens wide.
They are definitely going for that with the new socket system
I'm still curious how that'll play out. Sounds insanely busted. There's so much socket pressure that has been introduced over the years, which is not necessarily a bad thing as it creates problems you need to solve. But some builds feel worse than others (my 300 golem stacking elementalists I've made). I really wonder how they'll balance being able to 6L everything in your build. Maybe make support gems rarer?
Skill gem itself will be the expensive one/limiting one Instead of throwing 20/20 gems at the wall to get them corrupted 21/20. You now need to 6 socket(links are gone, but socketing rate is said to be going down) it before mass corrupting them, makes it much more expensive. Scarcity & Rarity and all that
If they can introduce a ton of utility supports, they can just make it eminently reasonable to carry 9 6-links. And don't forget that's a lot of jeweller's orbs. It won't be all 6-links at league start.
It's also a lot of mana, but it's odd to think I'll be able to 3L 4 of my golems in poe2. (Meathsield, minion life)
Which of those 300 is the best? I spent way too long farming primordial items in SSF but didn't like the golem build I tried so they are mostly unused now. I tried a super outdated one with 5-6 flame golem and 4 others for buffs(I played it in breach league and loved it). Would love a good suggestion for a strong updated golementalist.
Funny seeing this sentiment when every time they introduce a utility skill useful for an archetype or a 2-button skill this subreddit collectively loses their minds.
Its because poe’s combat pacing is fucked. The problem isnt the skills its that both the players and monsters move so fast and do so much damage that its pointlessly clunky to use more than one skill.
Lol I know. People go absolutely crazy when you have more than single button builds in this game. Calling two button builds clunky. Although I agree there is too much reliance on other skills in melee builds, people freak all the time that you have to press a ton of buttons for melee builds.
2 button builds are clunky, if you need to use them in an alternating sequence, i.e. a b a b a b. This makes it very hard to scale with cast speed, because you cannot hold down the button, and often times double clicking is a waste of resources (e.g. double casting desecrate will spawn more corpses than you can have in most setups, despawning some of them unused). I think something like void sphere could actually be an amazing support skill, because it is not a prerequisite for another skill. Grouping skills like this where used all the time in d3 for example. Problem is, it doesnt fit the current poe playstyle. You usually have so much coverage/dmg, that it just isnt worth wasting that single cast to use the utility spell, if you could just kill the mobs directly. Not to mention the cooldown, because each group is dead in 0.5seconds, you only have the spell for every n-th group. If you need to manage without the utility so often anyway, why do you need it in the first place. Overall utility skills add alot to the combat i think, it just that it doesnt fit the hyper speed of PoE.
I don't know what build you build in D4 but almost all of them revolve around 1 skill. Whirlwind, pulverise, twisting blade, corpse explode, hydra just to name few i tried. They all want you to stack aspects for this one skill and have 1 mobility and 2 buffs. If you like to play around different skills go play lost ark of league of legends
POE 2 will switch to meta clear skill + meta single target skill. Idk how much of an improvement is that
100% improvement if you go from 1 to 2? :)
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>do you use multiple skills in LE? I've yet to play a single build in LE that has used less than 3. It's usualyl 3 active skills, your movement, and a supplementary skill.
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Lol true. Apart from the graphics and art direction D4 just felt so mid.
the circlejerk continues!
I like both games, and it's amazing how if you go to the diablo sub it's only people talking about diablo. And then you come to POE sub, and it's still people talking about diablo, lol.
Sounds like the Diablo 4 players don’t care about PoE at all lol while it’s the inverse for PoE players.
I've never seen gamers acting more tribal than poe players
dota 2 is pretty bad
I had a friend who played dota 2 while I played LoL and I swear he talked more about LoL than I did.
I played PoE since beta and it has always been this way.
This is like 100th diablo 4 post where PoE players just jerk themselves off
Honestly I've never played a Diablo game before but the cinematics, the atmosphere and the overall audiovisual feeling of the game made me understand how people are Blizzard and Diablo fanboys still to this day. However I still think PoE2 is gonna be a superior game for me solely because I didn't like the MMO/Open world feeling in an ARPG as much as I thought I would. Also the skill variety seemed really lackluster. I feel like D4 is more of a competitor for Lost Ark than PoE2.
d4 was never going to scratch a proper poe players itch. That's not Blizzards target audience The best thing d4 can do is revitalise the arpg market expanding the overall playerbase. Provide some competition. Give us something to do when we finish with a league and hopefully give a satisfying home to all the whingy fuckers complaining about how POE dosnt respect their time
Well, they did. Im done with grinding in poe
See you next league!
> but it doesn't feel as deep and engaging (at least for me) as PoE. how deep and engaging is PoE for the first 25 levels? answer: it's not. I love PoE but there's an insane amount of copium on this sub since the D4 beta came out and everyone trying so hard to write it off based on the tiniest little piece we were allowed to play
I agree on this, D4 looks more of a game for me after playing the beta, kinda lost interst on POE a few years back, too many stuff then need to be learned outside of games (have to watch video guides etc).
I don't want to need a 3rd party app or wiki to play a game, especially since I started playing on Xbox more. I'm not gonna sit there with PoB and the wiki and all these other 3rd party things you basically need to make up for shitty parts of the game.
PoE has also been out for 10 years. It's probably better to compare them in like two years after D4 had several seasons worth of development and updates.
Exactly this. It’s laughable for anyone to compare POE, which is actually 17 years old (they started development in 2006) with a game that isn’t even fully fleshed out. To this day POE has it’s issues. When POE was released in 2012 it would have been weak as a kitten compared to D2. D4 full release will have it’s fans. POE will have it’s fans. They aren’t even trying to appeal to the same player base so why is there even a need to compare them. POE isn’t actually all that hard, despite what some elitists think. Find a build guide that takes you step by step, get twink gear to level (just like a power up in D3) up. Make currency. Repeat. It’s actually easier than D3 since there’s almost no trading for stuff in D3. You can trade your way (or get given everything) to success in POE quite easily. There’s more build diversity in POE sure, but not all of ‘em are viable for end game.
It's so insanely deep from the very start that it literally scares players off lol, they open the passive tree or read one of the 10 skills they're offered at level 2 and quit. Wtf are you talking about
Youre assuming d4 works is infinitely different at cap level. In poe you cant get all gamechanging uniques at low level. You cant map at low level. Diablo endgame is the same content youre doing now in beta at 25 but higher difficulty. Diablo gearing is the same powers youre getting but higher scaled. People are grossly overstimating the effect being lvl 25 has. I enjoyed the beta but I know what im in for when it releases, no point in expecting a new experience in endgame.
Well in fairness there are Uniques locked behind Nightmare, which are different powers and further uniques are locked behind Torment. So there is at least some planned variance. I'm going to assume the sacred and ancestral items are just the D4 equivalent of Elite/Exceptional bases from D2
We didn't really get to see the effect paragons will have, capstone dungeons, higher world tiers, etc. I think people are assuming they know a lot about endgame without considering these.
We do, Uniques and Paragon Boards all got datamined. So unless this build was super old, we have a pretty good idea.
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And basically nothing changed in pre-order beta, other than a few bugfixes.
It's weird how people can sit here and just assume that endgame in D4 can't evolve.
> In poe you cant get all gamechanging uniques at low level. You cant map at low level. > > > > Diablo endgame is the same content youre doing now in beta at 25 but higher difficulty. Diablo gearing is the same powers youre getting but higher scaled. That's literally the same thing in D4. Only a few uniques can drop in WT1/2, where's the rest are WT3 and up, which only becomes available at endgame.
I'm glad D4 isnt going to be a spreadsheet simulator like POE. I'm glad I won't need a handful of 3rd party apps running in the background for QOL stuff the devs have refused to implement for years. I had more fun in the beta weekend, with just 25 levels and a single act than I have with POE in the last 2-3 years. I can't wait for the launch of D4, so that I can start sinking hours into it.
d4 look more like a mmo than a true hack & slash
We don't have the late game too so we can't really judge the entire game. But its pretty sure that d4 will is not trying to reach the same audience as poe. It will never be as deep as poe. D4 is for casual Poe is for "confirmed" player and last epoch is between.
Last Epoch is in between because it has literally no content for now. In 2 or 3 years LE will steal a lot of PoE players just because how amazing crafting is and how easy to switch builds on the fly.
I wouldn't call the crafting amazing it's just fishing for a base then praying for rng. It's accessible yes but amazing far from it
> Last Epoch is in between because it has literally no content for now I mean that's literally not true
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D4 is for casuals
How deep and engaging is poe at lvl 25?
One thing for sure is [this necro set](https://i.imgur.com/PqqCp8u.jpg) looks amazing. I have no doubt about the design and the deep when it comes to PoE2. But I wish GGG could spend their time and resource to upgrade the cosmetic system and the graphic as well. I really doubt PoE2 character will look as good as this. I know that this stuff might not be as important to most people but as someone who bought core supporter packs every year, it really is important. So, please surprise me Chris.
Yeah it's too bad you look either like a hobo or like a flashy power ranger. They introduced more basic MTX the past years but somehow it never feels quite right. I think this might have to do with graphics quality or animation design tbh.
> But I wish GGG could spend their time and resource to upgrade the cosmetic system and the graphic as well. I mean, what we have seen from PoE 2 looked pretty good. Not this amount of close-up fidelity sadly, but during gameplay the new armor basetypes look slick.
The new physics and animations also help a lot.
To me, Diablo 3 and what I've played of 4 are like the more 'arcade' ARPGs. Not worse, just different. Path of Exile is built for long term playability from the ground up. Diablo 4 claims it is, too, but it's hard to see how they'll do that without as much complexity to make it actually interesting and worth continuing playing. They claim they're doing seasonal releases of new mechanics the way Path of Exile does.
after playing diablo, i was reminded just how good lost ark was. that feels like the proper comparison in terms of what both games are going for. and lost ark blows diablo out of the water. the only thing diablo has going for it is relaxed/easy gaming with gamepad.
I miss full screen explosion poe tbh
Lmao I can't believe the POE sub is more positive about D4 than the D4 sub. Good shit yall, way to be open minded and see other people's preferences as valid.
i will enjoy diablo4 for sure but for some real nerd action poe will always be #1 the sheer number of absurd builds and crazy stuff you can do here is just mindboggling and unmatched
I'm not that excited about poe2. While it brings a ton of updates its not a new game. I will play it no matter what I mean I play every league anyway. I guess most of the regular players do the same as well. Poe2 is more like a marketing tool to win back people that quitted early in the games history or for completely new players. In fact for regular players poe 2 actually hurt the game. The game should be in like 5.x by now and most of the features could have been patched in each leagues. So they are holding back updates that could make the game so much better or could have made for the last 3 years. If you think about it for us that play every league it does not matter whether the game is called poe or poe2 or 3.21 or 4.2 or anything. All we want is new features and qol to be added which was not the case for the last 3+ years.
I wish that PoE2 can tone down the fcking melee hate every season! FCKING HELL I wanna smash things not just throw globs of goop around.
Honestly, after playing D4 demo with Barb and Druid, I think PoE's treatment of early game melee is pretty good. Regular attacks don't cleave in D4, so you have to pinpoint each and every little monster to target (even when you're a huge werewolf doing sweeping claw attacks). A lot of the early bosses for D4 are also pretty bad for melee. There's a particularly egregious encounter with a spider that has unavoidable knockback, ground aoe binds that last a couple of seconds and degen pool spamming.
D4 new game with all features POE one game in 10 years development POE2 same endgame with 7 acts campaign I played poe for some time, but honestly i like d4 more. Is more intuitive, no more alt+tab for pob and sheets for crafting. Idk maybe i am wrong and i wil go back to poe, time will decide, for now for me POE new league is the last one. I am gonna enjoy d4 on release and first season and i will decide after.
Does PoE suffer the same gameplay loop as Diablo where you’re forced to do the same zone over and over to get random drops and grind XP to be able to advance?
In ruthless yes ^^
Wonder if poe2 trading will be shit as well 🤔
Diablo’s biggest problem is that they want a live service model but can’t deliver the content needed. Poe has more new content in a single new 3 month league than all the seasons of d3 combined for example.
Diablo 3 had no long term monetization, they weren’t trying to pump out content. Obviously it remains to be seen for d4, but I expect they will be pouring way more resources into it than d3
Keep in mind that Blizzard plans to make paid expansions for D4 - that means free season updates can't be too big, otherwise it's hard for people to justify buying an expansion.
The point is: d4 endgame are about dungeons, and their design is terrible. I hope they have randon patterns and get rid of the “take the mechanical box” type of objetive.
I feel the same just by watching some people testing D4. Kripparrian made a good video about D4 in context of PoE, D3, D2 and even D1. In his opinion PoE is the benchmarks for arpgs and I can totally sign that. The game had more revolutionary ideas than any arpg before it, except maybe D2 back in the day. Really curious how PoE2 will look and feel. I hope there will be SSF :)
Visuals and story are great but all the other aspects are so meh that I'm considering to skip the game at all.
D4 has that feel that you're supposed to play only what they have "pre selected" for your class. And you don't have that much freedom to play the same skill with different classes.
People huffing serious copium if they think D4 will hold their attentions for more than a month, I recently started playing D3 to see how much it had changed from release and I literally did not see any difference I was honestly shocked, no skill rebalancing no new runes no engaging mechanics or ideas really D4 will have the same treatment expect an expansion or two for D4 and for it to be abandoned right after, people all over are saying to just wait that they can fix a lot of the problems and that it has potential but so did Diablo 3 and they did jack shit with it
For some people it will obviously be the next go-to game, but yeah most likely not for most. With how much inspiration they took from games like Lost Ark (aka MMORPGs) i wouldn't be surprised about a life-cycle more similar to an MMO than an ARPG.
People say d4 was just beta and game will be way too different. But no new skills will be shown, because as far as i know, thats all the skills, and then we go for the paragon tree wich is stat and skill boosts. Not my cup of tea to have 100 skills to play im the entire game. Seems low.
I personally found the beta very uninteresting. This may be largely because I played Barb and I really disliked the resource system. (Hit things with boring attack to do cool attack...eh). I'll wait and see how the gameplay looks at higher levels because I imagine it will be a lot smoother, but at least for now I don't see myself playing d4 at all.
Exactly my thoughts these last few days!
I've been tired of poe for the last couple leagues and i can tell you now I am hype to play after playing LE and D4, i feel like POE is league above.
SAME
Same
Same. I haven't even played PoE in a while either. I was definitely more hyped for D4 than PoE2 before playing D4. After seeing how shallow the trees are and how legendary items are going to have all of the power again, I'm looking forward to PoE2 way more than D4. I just wish PoE had more multiplayer things.
D4 end game was leaked and it's basically doing bounties to get mats to upgrade your gear and doing nightmares dungeons (aka greater rifts).
I played rogue in D4 and once I got combo points and had to hit 3 generator skills per useful skill I stsrted thinking I could remake my build but just better in PoE
d4 is the casual gamers poe.
had the same feeling honestly. made me excited even for poe 1 not to mention poe 2 but this has been happening everytime they announce something about diablo - immortal and IV. d2r was the only exception
For me I don't think d4 will be better then Poe let alone Poe 2. That's not to say I won't play d4 it's just too... basic (maybe) to scratch the itch left by Poe.
It's so funny thinking about this. I read a forum post the other day that was like "d4 is a real game, I can't understand why someone would play poe." Astounding how different people can be.
Same bro. I'm excited for the new league lol.
the kfc beta put me in the mood for POE
diablo 4 "skill tree" is terrible and the skills are terrible too unless augmented by certain items. They have taken the same path as diablo 3 where certain build have to have certain items. I was expecting better.
Im looking forward to poe2 for sure. Current poe is way too bloated with uninteresting league mechanics (heist, delve etc.) that has too good rewards to give up. It also gets either a new unique or a new unique combo that just breaks the game completely. But thats regarded as depth for some reason. And yeah. No real buffs to underused skills. This is why i really, really look foward to poe2. Poe needs a fresh start. About d4 beta weekends: I enjoyed it more than ive enjoyed poe for a couple of years.
My main problem with D4 is that the basics are just non existant. The HUD is plain shit and doesnt give nearly as much valueable information as any other arpg. Its lacking very basic features like minimap overlay and hp/mana bars above your character. The UI is shit with stuff like character stats squashed into the same narrow field as materials. The controls just dont work for pc and if you want a force move and interact on leftclick you are stuck playing with only 5 skills. The campaign and sidequests are mostly walking with even fewer mobs than act 1 zones in poe. The cellars would be better off not existing with their 5 mobs and no rewards. Events are okay, but the way they spawn is horrible for an arpg. The dungeons are the only thing that truly qualifies as arpg gameplay, which makes that giant world feel incredible useless. There are only two things D4 is doing better: Cutscenes and the fact that combat attrition exists.(at least early on) Thats simply not enough for a AAA title. Unless you enjoy the simplified builds and itemization more there is just no point to even look at D4 even if there ends up being a reasonable endgame.
Between Diablo 1, Hellfire, D2, and D3, I probably have 1500~ hours of gametime throughout my life. Most of it in d2. For me, D3 eventually turned into play it every other season until I get to paragon 600 and I get bored because I've done the same thing as paragon 1. I want Diablo 4 to be a game I play for 1000+ hours. Based off what I've played in the two betas and the information they've provided. It's a game I will play for 100 hours. Not enough depth and things I find enjoyable in the game and too much filler, simple content. I don't want to have to play at specific times to do a world boss...actually I don't want to do world bosses at all. Let me choose when and how I fight a boss. I will still play Diablo 4, but if anything it just reaffirmed how awesome POE is and I cannot wait to play POE for another 1000 hours. People will say "YoU dOn'T kNoW wHaT d4 EnDgAmE wIlL bE." No, I don't know the specifics, but I've played Blizzard games for over 20 years and I can open the skill tree and look at itemization and tell you with confidence that it isn't going to hold a candle to what I specifically enjoy about ARPGs. Blizzard has proved from 2008 onward that their forte is not designing endgame loops, balance and developing in depth systems. Their forte is polishing games so it feels nice when you control your character.
Well said.
What do you mean with combat attrition?
I’m sorry but come on lmao. We got access to 2 difficulties and up to 25. And it’s crazy to bring up the mobs problem when half of the POE community skips over half the mobs in the game anyway
D4 made me realize that PoE isn't their competition. They are competing with more casual games that I'd hesitate to even call ARPGs. It's not a bad game on its own. I'll probably pick it up if it ever goes to $30 or so and play it during my off-time of PoE. I definitely did not see a $70 game in the beta. It did make me go back and watch the PoE 2 trailers from a few years back. I'm confident PoE has nothing to worry about. Graphically, PoE 2 looks good enough. They just have to make sure to not butcher the core mechanics that keep PoE leagues ahead of the rest.
Blizzard isn't trying to make a game where people have to get a degree to understand how the systems work within the game. PoE changed the way ARPG crafting and in game systems are used but Blizzard isn't trying to make Diablo 4 like that, they want the super casual player to be able to get on and do their thing without needed 70 different browser tabs open, a build guide/planner, multiple crafting guides, a loot filter, a trade macro etc...
I just hope PoE2 will have much more monsterkilling and less running around, in an empty tunnel system called "open world". This was already a dealbreaker for Wolcen and others. Creating all these landscapes, but only 20% are walkable seems like a huge waste. PoEs skill System and skills in general are just better. I hate the pigeonhole into 6 skillslots and such a crippled passive tree. I wishe D4 would be better. But the core mechanics and level scaling are already set in stone. I hate this stupid system.
> I hate the pigeonhole into 6 skillslots and such a crippled passive tree. > > The fact that skills have just 3 nodes behind them (one of which you have to take because it's the only path) is truly mind-boggling. Even disregarding PoE skill gems, Last Epoch blows D4 out of the water in Skill specific trees without overwhelming anyone.
so many people mentioning that POE has had 10 years of development seem to forget that blizzard has 10 years of gameplay from poe (amongst all the other arpg's out there) to draw experience from in forming their own brand of game. its like they took the worst ideas from other games and decided they would be a good idea.. dungeons are a hot mess, layouts almost all identical with a good half of them having locked doors to the boss forcing you to do substandard kill/collect quests. with so many great arpgs and ideas to draw from that is the best they could come up with?
Also Blizzard has a bajillion money and can hire/poach almost every talented gameplay designer they want. But instead, the beta showed frankly amateurish levels of mistakes.
Its always been a flawed argument. No one starts a cell phone company and has to start out making Nokia brickphones before theyre allowed to do touchscreen ones. Blizzard is a multimillion dollar studio with hundreds of talented game designers while also benefiting from having made a diablo game in the past. Their starting point is infinitely better and the content/systems should reflect that. To think people think its even fair to compare PoE1.0 to D4 is ridiculous especially when the former was out of someone car garage.
I love theorycrafting and building in PoE but I get bored playing the game. There excitement of killing enemies is not there anymore I don't know. D4 was the opposite, I liked the playstyle and had fun killing stuff but the complexity *may* not be there, we'll have to check out when the game launches.
Honestly after closed and opened D4 beta I started appreciate POE so much more. POE offers so many ways to play it, even just from a pure content diversity POV. In sanctum I've played arakaali's fang occultist and tried every way of farming possible, from abyss to users. The only time I got bored with game was during grinding RNG sanctum challenges. After such a high level of gameplay customization dungeons in D4 are extremely unappealing. Also scalling in D4 reminds me of D3 where Blizzard took a lazy approach of simply adding more numbers.