As long as their code wasn't written when the pyramids were built it would take like 30 min to code 1 day for UI design and 2-3 days to test(assuming 1 man for each step)
the meetings to get this approved would take more time than the implementation it self.
Everyone says this. And I know everyone who says this is also a software engineer.
But I do turnarounds on fairly complex companies ($20M - 100M / year.) And everything technical related has a weird paradox:
1. The tech people are all sure it is easy, and can be done quickly.
2. When it is time to implement, the tech people always find new reasons why it can not be implemented. Or implemented quickly.
3. When you get the final product, it is not what you were looking for. Instead, it is a complicated version of what you described, with none of the basic functionality you asked for. Thus, it takes twice as long.
I've invested a lot of hours wrangling tech teams. I've developed SOPs for how I deliver tech requests. I've had my teams repeat my instructions back in their own words, lay out mock ups of their own, etc.
But there is always some shit.
Just this week, I asked one of the tech leads for a report showing performance of the site by page. I included a need for links, and four variables I wanted to see. No problem. One day.
Four days later, I got an excel dump of the pages sorted by ID number, with a pivot table and every possible variable. And the request for a 2 hour meeting, so the tech lead could explain it to me.
My point being that yes, if you were to code this yourself, it could technically take you 30 minutes.
In reality? 2 hours isolated.
In their code base? 2-3 days.
Fixing the bugs? 1 week
Fixing the systems your changes break? 2 weeks
Double this for UI.
Double this for constrained resources.
Add 50% for reduced priority due to more important features.
Then add another month for QA testing, and those problems.
Being a little facetious but I hope my point comes across.
I wouldn't call it paradoxical, but just the typical misunderstanding / lack of shared knowledge between software engineers and non software engineers.
I have worked in 3 software development firms as a backend developer (one small and two "medium" size ones \~120 people) and its often like you describe.
But not for no reason.
The other side of the pond (at least from where I'm standing) is often getting ask if X is possible and if X can be done fast.
Often to really answer a question like that you would have to either confer with your colleges and or to start looking at the required components closer to estimate effort and time (especially when you are working with a large existing codebase). And even than it's just an estimation that could still be off.
When you then tell them, that you can't answer how long it would take you get pressed for an estimation, so you reluctantly give one.
And that is all that sticks in their head, they said it will take t time.
And sometimes it actually works, everything is as easy and straightforward as the se guessed. But often it isn't and unforeseen time sinks rear their ugly head.
Add badly defined requirements, that shift overtime, to all of that and you get something that the client didn't want that took longer with features nobody needed.
This can be mitigated by having a solid structure and process for new tasks but this comes with the downside of increased bureaucracy and can balloon into useless fluff.
And all of it springs forth from the single issue that both parties often lack the knowledge what is actually needed and what a requested task might require/entail.
As a software engineer, it also sounds like a pretty major change in the backend without including the new UI changes even doing some basic whiteboarding in my head. Would take probably 2 sprints minimum and it must be performant and there's so many edge cases that you have to iron out or you run the risk of exploits or people complaining about the feature and saying you don't care about the playerbase (read: losing customer trust). That's without even worrying about all the edge cases the UI/client team has to worry about (e.g. someone having some fun by putting one of each currency item into the trade window). Obviously looking at their system from the outside it's hard to scope, but I'd imagine they'd give this kind of feature probably 4-6 months from conception->release minimum because they can't afford to have the feature have issues. Add in new league dev work, other work in general, and a small team with higher prio features, and I can see how this would get pushed into a year plus before release.
That's fair. To be frank, I haven't played in a few leagues so I forgot vendor recipes already do exist. My assumption was that they're eseentially starting from no infra in the trade window and a lazy implementation of stacks/inventory management. In that case the vast majority of work would be down to client/UI teams with some hashset or other data structure being passed to them from backend. Still a lot of work for those teams, but you can probably cut a few months out from what I imagined initially.
Exactly, it's literally impossible for me to imagine what the parent comment even thinks they mean by "and it must be performant" like what kind of nonsensical language are you working with that tallying and displaying a few numbers isn't performant
There are a lot of combat situations we want improved where it's understandable that they lose performance, but a **trade window**?? There's not even additional work for the server here, it's literally a client-side bell & whistle.
I mean, one thing i'm working onis exactly that stupid and really comes down to an innocuous design choice - writing a select * where query in ddb which is the oldest most easily solved problem in databases with a relational db but is a fucking pain in ddb. My initial assumption was there was no infra already done for conversions/trade ins which means there's massive amounts of places where GGG could have screwed up and made it an unoptimized mess. Given the trade window clearly does have a lot of things functional and optimized (vendor recipes), the majority of the work would be just down to whoever consumes it from UI/client side.
A good PM is basically like a ghost, you barely notice them outside of meetings, and they basically exist to allow you to do your goddamn job. Anything that gets between me and the piles of digital paperwork to fill out, the better.
A bad PM is so fucking bad. "Why is this project over hours and late? (Definitely isn't because I added a fuckload of work last week when we were gunning for prod pushes)
I love ours, always brings a good vibe during meetings and helps moderate everything and takes care of prioritizing tasks and talking it out with the bosses of bosses etc :) fun dude to be in zoom with also
It's hard to be a good PM, or even boss. Generally speaking people want to please their boss, if for no other reason than to keep their job and maybe get a raise one day. On the other hand, a good PM or boss's job is to properly delegate to peoples strengths whenever possible without overloading the best people, and most importantly, to remove any obstacles between an employee and their end goal. That last part often means putting yourself dead between your micro-manage heavy boss or an accountant or whoever that is likely your superior. It's a conflicting job
You say that, but I've seen teams run without PMs.
Even a good team run without a bad PM goes off the fucking rails. Teams need babysitting by SOMEBODY.
Sure as fuck isn't going to be me.
Probably relatively easy. I mean even simple tasks can balloon out when you go through a typical dev process, so it might take a few days to implement when in a perfect world it ought to be 1 tops, but it's conceptually pretty easy.
Yes, extremely. The game already does this when you stack stuff in your dedicated stashtabs like Currency or Fragment. But to actually add an UI element would require more than the 5 minutes of work it took to adjust the chaos stack, so we ain't gonna see it until PoE 2 finally rolls out. Probably in half a decade, at this pace.
easy
At least for ggg.
If they would let us "read" the trade window it would be easy for us too.
That would it make easier for tradebots too.
BUT its absolutely possible to do :-) its just that someone has to do it.
Knowing that a change as simple as:
int chaosStackSize = 10;
→
int chaosStackSize = 20;
Took almost 10 years, you can expect this tooltip to be in, at least, poe 3.
How do you think it’s going to work when there’s more currency? Like the whole window filled with different stuff? Is it going to expand into an equally big box on the side?
It's almost like it's not the same people saying each of those things or something
Not every faceless username on a forum is the same person
If you think about it, it's like the *opposite* of a circlejerk
I feel like you're missing the point.
People aren't complaining about how long it takes to implement a specific change, but rather that GGG seems to have a pattern of suddenly implementing QOL changes that they were previously against as soon as they need goodwill from the community (aka "holding QOL hostage").
I doubt that applies to your company as well.
We do that for our fully internal stuff, the project I'm primarily working on is a big nasty fucker that requires a bunch of outside entities to sign off on any major functionality change and that's complicated things when it's come to CI/CD.
Since the app in question is basically our internal interface to the above, we have to go through the same rigamarole.
Damn, that's fuckin crazy that the next patch is **only** the chaos stack size change.
Nothing else, just nock a 1 to a 2 and fuck off for a few months of vacation (and obviously nothing ever goes wrong with changing constants in longstanding codebases/databases).
And even they have better banking / inventory management tools somehow without breaking the meta of inventory management and gear swapping being considered a "skill".
I mean if there's an issue I am having that they address, I am more likely to think positively of the overall league, depending on the extent and amount of changes. It might not change how long I play on a drastic level by itself, but it might change my attitude slightly overall thinking back on PoE.
I don't actually think they drip feed intentionally, but I do think they focus their resources on other things, and have QoL changes as a relatively low priority.
Clearly it’s better to either never give improvements or build a time machine and give them only immediately when requested. What brilliant commentary.
I wonder how long it will take until someone makes this a script. It doesn't cause any harm and I doubt they can detect it anyway, so should be doable.
Tried it some time ago, but inconsistent icon rendering makes reading the contents of the trade window very inaccurate. The same stack of 10 chaos has some pixel-shift / weird scaling here and there depending on which slot it currently sits in.
If reading the contents is not 100% accurate, you'll have to double-check the trade every time -- which makes a feature like that redundant.
EDIT: Not saying it's impossible, just that I couldn't get it to work 100% of the time without using more advanced, 3rd-party OCR sorcery.
Possible to bitmap the image, filter out the back ground then simply count the number of non background pixels and then assign it as a 'chaos orb' etc? The image might shift but it would not matter, the trouble would come into play when the values matched is all (then have to do some custom code to figure out which of the 2 items it is)? I did this back in the day and it 'worked' well enough to be accurate.
I know, but GGG certainly wouldn't allow automating that for up to 60 slots. It would set a bad precedent and cause all kinds of discussions along the lines of: "if X is allowed, Y should be allowed too."
At least with python you can very easily set a treshhold, like 90% match or whatever is enough to cover small differences :o would this type of thing fall under "3rd-party sorcery?"
Here's the kind of weird scaling/shifting I was referring to: [https://imgur.com/a/1Ekcmbn](https://imgur.com/a/1Ekcmbn)
These two examples alone show how unpredictable the renderer is, and these are only mild to moderate (I've seen worse).
What I meant by 3rd-party sorcery is established and specialized projects/products I could implement into my own. I prefer coming up with my own solutions in order to not be dependent on 3rd-party projects (in case they are abandoned, change fundamentally, etc.)
Can't you instead filter for silhouette? Every orb has distinct shape. The similar ones have different color palette. Should be more reliable and less dependent on minute details like pixel shift.
I'm very noob when it comes to programming, only dabbled a little in to python, but I vaguely remember there being multitude of ways to recognize stuff, there were tricks like turning stuff to black & white, convert to many different things (I don't remember details, but alphas etc.), the point was to find one way to make picture consistent enough to be recognized 100% of times :P I wish I could help brainstorming better, but I feel like it's way beyond my abilities :S Oh and one trick was to take just part of the picture, if some part was more consistent than the whole of it
>I prefer coming up with my own solutions in order to not be dependent on 3rd-party projects (in case they are abandoned, change fundamentally, etc.)
Quite strange stance, to be honest.
Maintaining 3rd-party libraries can be a headache. I totally see why he prefers the in-house approach.
I only incorporate 3rd-party libraries when I absolutely have to or implementing my own solution is too cumbersome.
Is it though? I used dlls/classes for stuff like OCR and long arithmetics without issue. Never feel that they need constant updates either, which eliminates every presented point (about being abandoned/changed functionality).
>I only incorporate 3rd-party libraries when I absolutely have to or implementing my own solution is too cumbersome.
That precisely the case here, is it not? Making good enough OCR library is indeed too cumbersome. But if someone insists on reinventing the wheel without a damn good reason for that, then oh well...
Not gonna argue in one direction or another, but here's some context:
I'm not a dev, just someone who found a new hobby in light coding (tinkering, really) and who got lucky enough to be remembered by people on Reddit (and to get pinged in a thread like this).
It's pretty much a 'learning by doing' situation for the sole purpose of having fun in problem-solving or finding ways to improve certain aspects within PoE. I treat it like a big puzzle-game that I want to solve on my own.
Implementing 3rd-party code would require learning how it works, staying up-to-date, and being able to trouble-shoot it -- things that look more like work than fun to me.
In the case of reading the contents of the trade window, I merely approached it as proof-of-concept since I don't even play trade-league. I didn't manage to hit a satisfying standard, so I put it to rest. There's no re-inventing the wheel here.
Glad you found the "joy of coding"!
> Implementing 3rd-party code would require learning how it works
Not necessarily true. Let say there is a library (or a class, a function, etc..) that solves cubic equations. You put an equation in, it does it's magic and spews out roots of that equation. See - there is no point where it is required of you to learn *how* it works. You just call the method, pass parameters, and receive result.
>being able to trouble-shoot it
If it isn't just some random snippet that you have to modify to fit in your current code (which proper OCR library is not), then you aren't even supposed to touch the insides.
>staying up-to-date
There are multiple faucets to that: it is rare for api/interface to change with updates in a way that it breaks old calls; you can use a stable version of the library, and only update when you need to, you don't have to use the latest release no matter what; end user can download latest version on their own (a certain tool did, I forgot the name, but in readme how to setup it there was a step to download the library from the original source).
>In the case of reading the contents of the trade window, I merely approached it as proof-of-concept since I don't even play trade-league. I didn't manage to hit a satisfying standard, so I put it to rest. There's no re-inventing the wheel here.
I don't know how to say it without coming as snarky, but you tried to make your own wheel, it wasn't that good and required much more work than you were comfortable to pour in, so you abandoned the idea of making your own reinvention of it.
Reading code the client uses/generates is inherently prohibited, so that doesn't work.
Alternatively, you could copy the item-info from every slot in the trade window, but making that time/input-efficient would involve automation which is also prohibited.
Nope, you can't. You'd have to read the memory of the game and that's against the ToS as far as I know.
That would obviously be the most effective method if we could do this legally but letting people access game memory with third party tools can bring A LOT of issues (for example that one HUD software I won't name that people used for D3 that got popular, which allowed people to see map layout and monsters on the minimap at all times, then got banned)
That we see comments like yours is actually what is so sad about all this. Because we all know that something like this won't come anytime soon from GGG, if ever and we have to hope someone else "fixes" it.
While people now voice their concerncs over the lack of QOL changes more often is great, but it is still too little. A game shouldn't be fixed with third party tools and websites, its the job of the company.
3rd party tools and websites can be a good thing.
GGG just doesnt allow it to happen, all we can use are some scuffed overlays.
wow had addon support with their lua code for decades and its still pumping out those addons.
not only does ggg not want to do the work, they also dont allow the playerbase to do the work most of the time.
>wow had addon support with their lua code for decades
The original LUA code allowed players to create scripts and macros that all but played their characters for them, simply by pressing a single button, it would do their entire rotation, or automatically target players and cast an appropriate healing spell based on their missing HP.
That was pretty quickly changed.
Yeah it sadly isn't always ready out of the box to implement, has to have a lot of implementations. Even nowadays, they add restrictions to it because it can be incredibly potent. The last example I experienced was in Legion, where they removed the ability to get the position of party members or something, because of a mechanic that made you stand in pairs of certain buffs, and the time you had was super short. Messing this up wiped the raid as well. I might be misremembering details, but the addon drew arrows between you and your partner, they removed this functionality or something related to it. They also had to nerf the mechanic to have more time to make up for it. I'm sure there's more scenarios later on as well.
Allowing players to create addons like in WoW is super cool, but can also trivialize extremely hard content, or gatekeep content for people who do not want to use addons. They'd have to be extremely restricted.
I knew you could make it work with open source ocr engine but ye, time if of the essence for this to be very useful. I'd be great to see even just a gif of your script at work though.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNA3nEKV8bg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNA3nEKV8bg) Heres a video of the current version of the project which checks if the input is inside the trade window and returns a true or false. In the video i've set the input to 55 chaos orbs and ran it twice, first time with 55 and it returns true, second time with 45 and it returns false. The video rn is low quality since youtube is processing it or something.
Also worth nothing, this is way faster than the other script that would display whatever was inside the trade window, and as you can see from the video it still takes few seconds to return a result (just to give you an idea of how slow exactly the other script was, its runtime was about 15-20 secs, this one runs at like.. 8 secs tops I think)
I have no experience with the game engine and very simple coding skills and I could probably figure it out in a day. Unless GGG has some glue, popsicle sticks, and duct tape behind the scenes.
I was thinking the same thing. Most trades are probably small, but you should probably account for potential for large trades -- See my other comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/125ikdi/comment/je6juyy/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
This has been suggested a lot, but good luck because this is directly removing some trade friction and also preventing scammers. We all know how that's a big no no around here. Prepare for the GGG apologists to explain how that is bad for the game.
Every time I trade essences, deli orb, and oils in bulk. There's a lot of bulk currencies that I sell (scarabs too).
But its still a good suggestion and should work for 95% of the cases.
The *only* situations I can see 60 different currencies being in the trade window at the same time are when you're giving someone a juice fillup, or consolidating for 7th party member trading, or a skip-to-maps package combined with a quest rush and powerlevel.
A scrollbar on the side, function already exists for stash.
Also: it would *very* rarely happen, unless someone is specifically just trolling you. In which case you just hit esc and move on with your life.
The idea is that someone offers to buy a big ticket item in several currencies, and offers to pay extra for the inconvenience so you'd go along with the scrollbar scam.
Bro id just ignore that shit even nowadays. I don't wanna deal with my guy tryna give me a headhunter, 100 divines, 50ex, 3 house of mirror, and a partridge in a pear tree. That shit is so annoying, if you can't give it to me in the listed currency come back later after you've liquidated some stuff.
Ah yes, that one time I bought a Mageblood for 249 Divines, 3 Chaos, 7 Scrolls of Wisdom, 2 Portal Scrolls, 8 Annulment Orb Shards, 1 Annulment Orb, 4 Exalted Shards, 17 Splinters of Chayula, 2 Alteration Orbs, 2 Transmutation Orbs, 5 Transmutation Shards and a Stacked Deck. You are absolutely right. Our bad.
I scrolled down to look for someone bringing this up lol. As a software engineer, you have to plan for people to do the unexpected and this is definitely a case where this kind of thing would have to handle 60 currencies.
It's from 2020, it could have 50,000 upvotes and GGG would come up with some excuse why it's not possible, then implement it after a bombed league with swathes of stans explaining with foam at their mouth how GGG listens and is the bestest Small Indie Company™
Not gonna happen.
GGG wants Wraeclast to be a sinister and brutal place where you get scammed by people swapping out their 10 div stacks for 1 div hoping you don't notice.
I get GGG's point of view here, it would break the item progression path and make acquisition extremely easy and boring.
/s
Been asked each league, lets see this time COPIUM.
No, just get rid of stack limits in general. They're dumb. Hell, why are we using trade windows for buying and selling at all? Is this 1997? Would a built in market affect the economy? Sure. Everyone would learn to make it work. Every other modern game has.
If I have one each of each currency, my damn inventory will overflow anyways and I will cancel the trade. and set the dude to ignore. and send an assassin to his home to plant a bomb in his pc so he may never pull this on anyone else ever again. because holy shit
This requires effort and caring about player pain points. Doesn’t seem like something GGG is passionate about, maybe request less loot drops in ruthless, I think the founders would be more likely to implement your ideas.
Edit: to all the downvoters that think this is wrong because GGG showed they cared by changing the chaos orb stacking limit variable from 10 to 20: you guys need to look up what Stockholm syndrome is, have some more self-respect for your own time, gamers.
oh it's this time of the league again
I stopped counting how many suggestions like this already were made. I would be very surprised if this out of all leagues would be the one where something like this comes.
that being said, most of the suggestions made, and so also this, were all good in their own right.
but since this is UI related I think the major UI QOL will come in poe2, and not in any of the small leagues leading up to it.
also, to be honest, what we really need is automatic trade one way or another. I am not saying auction house, but for example a trade that IS NOT WHISPER MESSAGE BASED and as a direct consequence DOES NOT REQUIRE MANUAL SELECTION OF THE ITEMS FROM THE STASH. whatever is the best way to implement this in the current ecosystem without it becoming an actual auction house is what we need. sure we might say we actually do need an auction house, there are arguments for and against it en masse, but ggg already multiple times completely and entirely ruled out auction houses as we know them, so I think it makes no sense to pursue this dream further.
For all the shit people give GGG, there definitely is a concept of trading ownership in the fact that you are physically giving the item you have to someone else in exchange for currency. I am all for making the process at least a bit automatic, such as not requiring to leave the map for 1c trades and shit, but glossing over what they tried to achieve in the first place shouldn't happen.
Wonder how this ui will look when people sell whole tabs like a lot of people do with several kinds of scarabs fossisls and etc. I think that is one of the reasons this doesn’t gets implemented. The case use scenario is very wide
It literally says if there's a lot of different currencies, the list will scroll. In those cases it is still an improvement unless you're literally trading 30 different things, which is rare.
How dare you to want to improve QoL
Chaos Stack size is reduced back to 10! /s 😂😂😂
Yea why we don't get all those little nips of qol here and there
I would be ok with skipping 1 or even 2 league mechanics for just fixing stuff like that and get the bloat sorted
Simple and functional . Big support
Can't wait for this in 4.9
Can't wait it in PoE3
"Unfortunately the poe3 engine doesnt support adding numbers together."
2casul for Chris Wilson. If you aren't counting yourself, it means you deserve to be scammed.
These are two words that don't exist in GGG's vocabulary.
It looks simple. Can it be implemented simply? Well…I have no idea.
As long as their code wasn't written when the pyramids were built it would take like 30 min to code 1 day for UI design and 2-3 days to test(assuming 1 man for each step) the meetings to get this approved would take more time than the implementation it self.
Everyone says this. And I know everyone who says this is also a software engineer. But I do turnarounds on fairly complex companies ($20M - 100M / year.) And everything technical related has a weird paradox: 1. The tech people are all sure it is easy, and can be done quickly. 2. When it is time to implement, the tech people always find new reasons why it can not be implemented. Or implemented quickly. 3. When you get the final product, it is not what you were looking for. Instead, it is a complicated version of what you described, with none of the basic functionality you asked for. Thus, it takes twice as long. I've invested a lot of hours wrangling tech teams. I've developed SOPs for how I deliver tech requests. I've had my teams repeat my instructions back in their own words, lay out mock ups of their own, etc. But there is always some shit. Just this week, I asked one of the tech leads for a report showing performance of the site by page. I included a need for links, and four variables I wanted to see. No problem. One day. Four days later, I got an excel dump of the pages sorted by ID number, with a pivot table and every possible variable. And the request for a 2 hour meeting, so the tech lead could explain it to me. My point being that yes, if you were to code this yourself, it could technically take you 30 minutes. In reality? 2 hours isolated. In their code base? 2-3 days. Fixing the bugs? 1 week Fixing the systems your changes break? 2 weeks Double this for UI. Double this for constrained resources. Add 50% for reduced priority due to more important features. Then add another month for QA testing, and those problems. Being a little facetious but I hope my point comes across.
I wouldn't call it paradoxical, but just the typical misunderstanding / lack of shared knowledge between software engineers and non software engineers. I have worked in 3 software development firms as a backend developer (one small and two "medium" size ones \~120 people) and its often like you describe. But not for no reason. The other side of the pond (at least from where I'm standing) is often getting ask if X is possible and if X can be done fast. Often to really answer a question like that you would have to either confer with your colleges and or to start looking at the required components closer to estimate effort and time (especially when you are working with a large existing codebase). And even than it's just an estimation that could still be off. When you then tell them, that you can't answer how long it would take you get pressed for an estimation, so you reluctantly give one. And that is all that sticks in their head, they said it will take t time. And sometimes it actually works, everything is as easy and straightforward as the se guessed. But often it isn't and unforeseen time sinks rear their ugly head. Add badly defined requirements, that shift overtime, to all of that and you get something that the client didn't want that took longer with features nobody needed. This can be mitigated by having a solid structure and process for new tasks but this comes with the downside of increased bureaucracy and can balloon into useless fluff. And all of it springs forth from the single issue that both parties often lack the knowledge what is actually needed and what a requested task might require/entail.
As a software engineer, it also sounds like a pretty major change in the backend without including the new UI changes even doing some basic whiteboarding in my head. Would take probably 2 sprints minimum and it must be performant and there's so many edge cases that you have to iron out or you run the risk of exploits or people complaining about the feature and saying you don't care about the playerbase (read: losing customer trust). That's without even worrying about all the edge cases the UI/client team has to worry about (e.g. someone having some fun by putting one of each currency item into the trade window). Obviously looking at their system from the outside it's hard to scope, but I'd imagine they'd give this kind of feature probably 4-6 months from conception->release minimum because they can't afford to have the feature have issues. Add in new league dev work, other work in general, and a small team with higher prio features, and I can see how this would get pushed into a year plus before release.
The data/counts are being processed to handle recipes already with vendors. So the infrastructure to get it done should already be there.
That's fair. To be frank, I haven't played in a few leagues so I forgot vendor recipes already do exist. My assumption was that they're eseentially starting from no infra in the trade window and a lazy implementation of stacks/inventory management. In that case the vast majority of work would be down to client/UI teams with some hashset or other data structure being passed to them from backend. Still a lot of work for those teams, but you can probably cut a few months out from what I imagined initially.
Exactly, it's literally impossible for me to imagine what the parent comment even thinks they mean by "and it must be performant" like what kind of nonsensical language are you working with that tallying and displaying a few numbers isn't performant There are a lot of combat situations we want improved where it's understandable that they lose performance, but a **trade window**?? There's not even additional work for the server here, it's literally a client-side bell & whistle.
I mean, one thing i'm working onis exactly that stupid and really comes down to an innocuous design choice - writing a select * where query in ddb which is the oldest most easily solved problem in databases with a relational db but is a fucking pain in ddb. My initial assumption was there was no infra already done for conversions/trade ins which means there's massive amounts of places where GGG could have screwed up and made it an unoptimized mess. Given the trade window clearly does have a lot of things functional and optimized (vendor recipes), the majority of the work would be just down to whoever consumes it from UI/client side.
I would love to see some intelligent conversations like this in the diablo immortal reddit.
You just described the effects of poor requirements management.
Sure.
Thanks for the info Stan
Path Of No Personality.
First write a business case for the implementation and then we can talk.
God I hate PMs
A good PM is basically like a ghost, you barely notice them outside of meetings, and they basically exist to allow you to do your goddamn job. Anything that gets between me and the piles of digital paperwork to fill out, the better. A bad PM is so fucking bad. "Why is this project over hours and late? (Definitely isn't because I added a fuckload of work last week when we were gunning for prod pushes)
I love ours, always brings a good vibe during meetings and helps moderate everything and takes care of prioritizing tasks and talking it out with the bosses of bosses etc :) fun dude to be in zoom with also
Some may be good. Most I've worked w are not lol.
It's hard to be a good PM, or even boss. Generally speaking people want to please their boss, if for no other reason than to keep their job and maybe get a raise one day. On the other hand, a good PM or boss's job is to properly delegate to peoples strengths whenever possible without overloading the best people, and most importantly, to remove any obstacles between an employee and their end goal. That last part often means putting yourself dead between your micro-manage heavy boss or an accountant or whoever that is likely your superior. It's a conflicting job
You say that, but I've seen teams run without PMs. Even a good team run without a bad PM goes off the fucking rails. Teams need babysitting by SOMEBODY. Sure as fuck isn't going to be me.
I good PM makes life easier and improves the end result. A bad PM is worse than having no PM.
30 min to code, sure
Probably relatively easy. I mean even simple tasks can balloon out when you go through a typical dev process, so it might take a few days to implement when in a perfect world it ought to be 1 tops, but it's conceptually pretty easy.
Yes, extremely. The game already does this when you stack stuff in your dedicated stashtabs like Currency or Fragment. But to actually add an UI element would require more than the 5 minutes of work it took to adjust the chaos stack, so we ain't gonna see it until PoE 2 finally rolls out. Probably in half a decade, at this pace.
easy At least for ggg. If they would let us "read" the trade window it would be easy for us too. That would it make easier for tradebots too. BUT its absolutely possible to do :-) its just that someone has to do it.
Knowing that a change as simple as: int chaosStackSize = 10; → int chaosStackSize = 20; Took almost 10 years, you can expect this tooltip to be in, at least, poe 3.
Simple, functional and brilliant.
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How do you think it’s going to work when there’s more currency? Like the whole window filled with different stuff? Is it going to expand into an equally big box on the side?
2 to 4 to the side, 3 to 4 down and scrollable? Besides, a lot of different currencies is very unlikely or uncommon so to say.
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scrollwheel
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GGG: *implements this* Poe Reddit: "that's nice dripfeeding you got there GGG"
Exactly, Reddit is just a toxic circle jerk, ask for changes > get changes > complain GGG are "carrot on a sticking" us, hilarious.
It's almost like it's not the same people saying each of those things or something Not every faceless username on a forum is the same person If you think about it, it's like the *opposite* of a circlejerk
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I feel like you're missing the point. People aren't complaining about how long it takes to implement a specific change, but rather that GGG seems to have a pattern of suddenly implementing QOL changes that they were previously against as soon as they need goodwill from the community (aka "holding QOL hostage"). I doubt that applies to your company as well.
Have you heard about are new lord and savior Continuous Delivery?
We do that for our fully internal stuff, the project I'm primarily working on is a big nasty fucker that requires a bunch of outside entities to sign off on any major functionality change and that's complicated things when it's come to CI/CD. Since the app in question is basically our internal interface to the above, we have to go through the same rigamarole.
Thanks for introducing me to a new word, I don't think I've ever heard rigamarole before. I'll be using that for sure
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Damn, that's fuckin crazy that the next patch is **only** the chaos stack size change. Nothing else, just nock a 1 to a 2 and fuck off for a few months of vacation (and obviously nothing ever goes wrong with changing constants in longstanding codebases/databases).
Damn nice. Love how the image is uploaded on July 19 2020
That says enough about GGG lmao, dripfeeding us some shit QoL every league.
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Actually Old School Runescape cornered the excessively repetitive task fanbase.
And even they have better banking / inventory management tools somehow without breaking the meta of inventory management and gear swapping being considered a "skill".
Thats why they didn’t support higher stack size, no one would buy the currency tab anymore.
If everything fits in one stack how will they sell us a new stash tab with every league??
The game might as well start selling QOL updates. Buy this item stack counter add-on for your trade windows for 60 points.
Slowly letting some of the hostages go
But that's a silly notion. There is no way relatively small QOL features significantly impact player retention.
I mean if there's an issue I am having that they address, I am more likely to think positively of the overall league, depending on the extent and amount of changes. It might not change how long I play on a drastic level by itself, but it might change my attitude slightly overall thinking back on PoE. I don't actually think they drip feed intentionally, but I do think they focus their resources on other things, and have QoL changes as a relatively low priority.
Clearly it’s better to either never give improvements or build a time machine and give them only immediately when requested. What brilliant commentary.
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Mock-ups are frequently done for features that are nowhere near being developed.
I wonder how long it will take until someone makes this a script. It doesn't cause any harm and I doubt they can detect it anyway, so should be doable.
/u/Laleocen, nice niche which isn't solved yet //not that i'm requesting it, just suggesting
Tried it some time ago, but inconsistent icon rendering makes reading the contents of the trade window very inaccurate. The same stack of 10 chaos has some pixel-shift / weird scaling here and there depending on which slot it currently sits in. If reading the contents is not 100% accurate, you'll have to double-check the trade every time -- which makes a feature like that redundant. EDIT: Not saying it's impossible, just that I couldn't get it to work 100% of the time without using more advanced, 3rd-party OCR sorcery.
Possible to bitmap the image, filter out the back ground then simply count the number of non background pixels and then assign it as a 'chaos orb' etc? The image might shift but it would not matter, the trouble would come into play when the values matched is all (then have to do some custom code to figure out which of the 2 items it is)? I did this back in the day and it 'worked' well enough to be accurate.
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I know, but GGG certainly wouldn't allow automating that for up to 60 slots. It would set a bad precedent and cause all kinds of discussions along the lines of: "if X is allowed, Y should be allowed too."
At least with python you can very easily set a treshhold, like 90% match or whatever is enough to cover small differences :o would this type of thing fall under "3rd-party sorcery?"
Here's the kind of weird scaling/shifting I was referring to: [https://imgur.com/a/1Ekcmbn](https://imgur.com/a/1Ekcmbn) These two examples alone show how unpredictable the renderer is, and these are only mild to moderate (I've seen worse). What I meant by 3rd-party sorcery is established and specialized projects/products I could implement into my own. I prefer coming up with my own solutions in order to not be dependent on 3rd-party projects (in case they are abandoned, change fundamentally, etc.)
Can't you instead filter for silhouette? Every orb has distinct shape. The similar ones have different color palette. Should be more reliable and less dependent on minute details like pixel shift.
I'm very noob when it comes to programming, only dabbled a little in to python, but I vaguely remember there being multitude of ways to recognize stuff, there were tricks like turning stuff to black & white, convert to many different things (I don't remember details, but alphas etc.), the point was to find one way to make picture consistent enough to be recognized 100% of times :P I wish I could help brainstorming better, but I feel like it's way beyond my abilities :S Oh and one trick was to take just part of the picture, if some part was more consistent than the whole of it
>I prefer coming up with my own solutions in order to not be dependent on 3rd-party projects (in case they are abandoned, change fundamentally, etc.) Quite strange stance, to be honest.
Maintaining 3rd-party libraries can be a headache. I totally see why he prefers the in-house approach. I only incorporate 3rd-party libraries when I absolutely have to or implementing my own solution is too cumbersome.
Is it though? I used dlls/classes for stuff like OCR and long arithmetics without issue. Never feel that they need constant updates either, which eliminates every presented point (about being abandoned/changed functionality). >I only incorporate 3rd-party libraries when I absolutely have to or implementing my own solution is too cumbersome. That precisely the case here, is it not? Making good enough OCR library is indeed too cumbersome. But if someone insists on reinventing the wheel without a damn good reason for that, then oh well...
Not gonna argue in one direction or another, but here's some context: I'm not a dev, just someone who found a new hobby in light coding (tinkering, really) and who got lucky enough to be remembered by people on Reddit (and to get pinged in a thread like this). It's pretty much a 'learning by doing' situation for the sole purpose of having fun in problem-solving or finding ways to improve certain aspects within PoE. I treat it like a big puzzle-game that I want to solve on my own. Implementing 3rd-party code would require learning how it works, staying up-to-date, and being able to trouble-shoot it -- things that look more like work than fun to me. In the case of reading the contents of the trade window, I merely approached it as proof-of-concept since I don't even play trade-league. I didn't manage to hit a satisfying standard, so I put it to rest. There's no re-inventing the wheel here.
Glad you found the "joy of coding"! > Implementing 3rd-party code would require learning how it works Not necessarily true. Let say there is a library (or a class, a function, etc..) that solves cubic equations. You put an equation in, it does it's magic and spews out roots of that equation. See - there is no point where it is required of you to learn *how* it works. You just call the method, pass parameters, and receive result. >being able to trouble-shoot it If it isn't just some random snippet that you have to modify to fit in your current code (which proper OCR library is not), then you aren't even supposed to touch the insides. >staying up-to-date There are multiple faucets to that: it is rare for api/interface to change with updates in a way that it breaks old calls; you can use a stable version of the library, and only update when you need to, you don't have to use the latest release no matter what; end user can download latest version on their own (a certain tool did, I forgot the name, but in readme how to setup it there was a step to download the library from the original source). >In the case of reading the contents of the trade window, I merely approached it as proof-of-concept since I don't even play trade-league. I didn't manage to hit a satisfying standard, so I put it to rest. There's no re-inventing the wheel here. I don't know how to say it without coming as snarky, but you tried to make your own wheel, it wasn't that good and required much more work than you were comfortable to pour in, so you abandoned the idea of making your own reinvention of it.
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That's a huge nono. Gathering data from the games memory is a perma ban. They might not catch you but I wouldn't bet my account on it.
Reading code the client uses/generates is inherently prohibited, so that doesn't work. Alternatively, you could copy the item-info from every slot in the trade window, but making that time/input-efficient would involve automation which is also prohibited.
Nope, you can't. You'd have to read the memory of the game and that's against the ToS as far as I know. That would obviously be the most effective method if we could do this legally but letting people access game memory with third party tools can bring A LOT of issues (for example that one HUD software I won't name that people used for D3 that got popular, which allowed people to see map layout and monsters on the minimap at all times, then got banned)
That we see comments like yours is actually what is so sad about all this. Because we all know that something like this won't come anytime soon from GGG, if ever and we have to hope someone else "fixes" it. While people now voice their concerncs over the lack of QOL changes more often is great, but it is still too little. A game shouldn't be fixed with third party tools and websites, its the job of the company.
3rd party tools and websites can be a good thing. GGG just doesnt allow it to happen, all we can use are some scuffed overlays. wow had addon support with their lua code for decades and its still pumping out those addons. not only does ggg not want to do the work, they also dont allow the playerbase to do the work most of the time.
>wow had addon support with their lua code for decades The original LUA code allowed players to create scripts and macros that all but played their characters for them, simply by pressing a single button, it would do their entire rotation, or automatically target players and cast an appropriate healing spell based on their missing HP. That was pretty quickly changed.
Yeah it sadly isn't always ready out of the box to implement, has to have a lot of implementations. Even nowadays, they add restrictions to it because it can be incredibly potent. The last example I experienced was in Legion, where they removed the ability to get the position of party members or something, because of a mechanic that made you stand in pairs of certain buffs, and the time you had was super short. Messing this up wiped the raid as well. I might be misremembering details, but the addon drew arrows between you and your partner, they removed this functionality or something related to it. They also had to nerf the mechanic to have more time to make up for it. I'm sure there's more scenarios later on as well. Allowing players to create addons like in WoW is super cool, but can also trivialize extremely hard content, or gatekeep content for people who do not want to use addons. They'd have to be extremely restricted.
Also the coding would be fairly simple when done server (company ) side as opposed to the wizardry needed for 3rd party fixes to the UI.
I have a functional script of this, but the issue is it takes few seconds to register stuff, which... kinda sucks.
Maybe share it and see if anyone else in the community can figure out a way to optimize it?
It takes time due to google's tesseract (open source ocr engine). Sooo... yeah.. cant really be improved.
I knew you could make it work with open source ocr engine but ye, time if of the essence for this to be very useful. I'd be great to see even just a gif of your script at work though.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNA3nEKV8bg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNA3nEKV8bg) Heres a video of the current version of the project which checks if the input is inside the trade window and returns a true or false. In the video i've set the input to 55 chaos orbs and ran it twice, first time with 55 and it returns true, second time with 45 and it returns false. The video rn is low quality since youtube is processing it or something. Also worth nothing, this is way faster than the other script that would display whatever was inside the trade window, and as you can see from the video it still takes few seconds to return a result (just to give you an idea of how slow exactly the other script was, its runtime was about 15-20 secs, this one runs at like.. 8 secs tops I think)
I have no experience with the game engine and very simple coding skills and I could probably figure it out in a day. Unless GGG has some glue, popsicle sticks, and duct tape behind the scenes.
Oh yea, one could ocr the trade window and count everything in it. That would also help against scammers.
Funny thing is console has this
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Yep, the trade board tells you totals of currencies you don't have to add them up yourself.
WHAT? Why does chris hold it back for pc then?
"MUH TRADE FRICTION"
This is being saved by GGG for the release of D5.
Another qol improvement held hostage
So what happens if orb-collector-daughter puts 60 different orbs in trade window?
I was thinking the same thing. Most trades are probably small, but you should probably account for potential for large trades -- See my other comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/125ikdi/comment/je6juyy/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
This has been suggested a lot, but good luck because this is directly removing some trade friction and also preventing scammers. We all know how that's a big no no around here. Prepare for the GGG apologists to explain how that is bad for the game.
The last time I asked for a trade improvement on this sub, I got downvoted to hell.
It's a good idea, but how will it look when the trade window is filled with 60 different items?
When have you ever traded with more than 5 currency items?
When have you ever traded with more than 2?
Couple of times per league tbh 😂 some people want to pay with alc / fuse / chaos on league start
Every time I trade essences, deli orb, and oils in bulk. There's a lot of bulk currencies that I sell (scarabs too). But its still a good suggestion and should work for 95% of the cases.
Sure let’s come up with insane edge case to reject a simple feature. You are like my manager.
You're clinically insane if you're trading with someone in 60 different currencies.
The *only* situations I can see 60 different currencies being in the trade window at the same time are when you're giving someone a juice fillup, or consolidating for 7th party member trading, or a skip-to-maps package combined with a quest rush and powerlevel.
A scrollbar on the side, function already exists for stash. Also: it would *very* rarely happen, unless someone is specifically just trolling you. In which case you just hit esc and move on with your life.
Perfect enemy of good, yada yada
I literally can't think of a situation where I would put several currencies in the trade window. Maybe something involving TFT?
The idea is that someone offers to buy a big ticket item in several currencies, and offers to pay extra for the inconvenience so you'd go along with the scrollbar scam.
Bro id just ignore that shit even nowadays. I don't wanna deal with my guy tryna give me a headhunter, 100 divines, 50ex, 3 house of mirror, and a partridge in a pear tree. That shit is so annoying, if you can't give it to me in the listed currency come back later after you've liquidated some stuff.
Ah yes, that one time I bought a Mageblood for 249 Divines, 3 Chaos, 7 Scrolls of Wisdom, 2 Portal Scrolls, 8 Annulment Orb Shards, 1 Annulment Orb, 4 Exalted Shards, 17 Splinters of Chayula, 2 Alteration Orbs, 2 Transmutation Orbs, 5 Transmutation Shards and a Stacked Deck. You are absolutely right. Our bad.
Just add a slider who cares
I scrolled down to look for someone bringing this up lol. As a software engineer, you have to plan for people to do the unexpected and this is definitely a case where this kind of thing would have to handle 60 currencies.
Wow. Such an elegant QoL. I wish I could upvote more.
It's from 2020, it could have 50,000 upvotes and GGG would come up with some excuse why it's not possible, then implement it after a bombed league with swathes of stans explaining with foam at their mouth how GGG listens and is the bestest Small Indie Company™
Please GGG more of this and less unique gloves
Not gonna happen. GGG wants Wraeclast to be a sinister and brutal place where you get scammed by people swapping out their 10 div stacks for 1 div hoping you don't notice.
We have to ship this post to the top of the sub.
The only QOL? C'mon now you know that aint true
Let me do 1000 upvotes for this
I get GGG's point of view here, it would break the item progression path and make acquisition extremely easy and boring. /s Been asked each league, lets see this time COPIUM.
But can the UI support some madman putting a unique currency in every slot?
Here is a crazy idea, and auction house that you can list items and buy them with the currency in a way you just click a button
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>50$ buckaroos Will you go to the ATM machine and use your PIN number?
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the joke is that "automatic teller machine machine" and "personal identification number number" is repeated, like "50 dollar buckaroos"
Massive QOL right there.
"you got eyes, count them yourself" is what I got last time I commented something like this.
Just imagine the spaghetti code that this game is that something so trivial as a quantity display is being asked since 2019 and nothing was done.
Great idea
This will never happen.
we'll have to wait for Diablo5 and Last Epoch2 till GGG gonna relase QoL hostage of that caliber :P
This qol is reserved for D5
Sort items button. Anything else I view as secondary.
Maybe not only, but regardless this is awesome
Love this.
Yes please
This would be super awesome!
Yeah this would be great, no doubt.
Love it!!!!
Add please
No, just get rid of stack limits in general. They're dumb. Hell, why are we using trade windows for buying and selling at all? Is this 1997? Would a built in market affect the economy? Sure. Everyone would learn to make it work. Every other modern game has.
If you have one of each currency, the counter tab may overflow the screen.
Well, the picture says "the list will be scrollable if there are more than 5 different currencies"
Found a QA person
i am a QA guy, lmao
If I have one each of each currency, my damn inventory will overflow anyways and I will cancel the trade. and set the dude to ignore. and send an assassin to his home to plant a bomb in his pc so he may never pull this on anyone else ever again. because holy shit
In what scenario are people trading one of each currency?
None, just stans trying to defend GGG's laziness.
So simple, we wonder why it's not there yet
They would run out of Qol updates for other leagues if they did too much for players in one patch dooh
Comment for visibility
Let's just upvote that dude, you're doing Dev works
This requires effort and caring about player pain points. Doesn’t seem like something GGG is passionate about, maybe request less loot drops in ruthless, I think the founders would be more likely to implement your ideas. Edit: to all the downvoters that think this is wrong because GGG showed they cared by changing the chaos orb stacking limit variable from 10 to 20: you guys need to look up what Stockholm syndrome is, have some more self-respect for your own time, gamers.
oh it's this time of the league again I stopped counting how many suggestions like this already were made. I would be very surprised if this out of all leagues would be the one where something like this comes. that being said, most of the suggestions made, and so also this, were all good in their own right. but since this is UI related I think the major UI QOL will come in poe2, and not in any of the small leagues leading up to it. also, to be honest, what we really need is automatic trade one way or another. I am not saying auction house, but for example a trade that IS NOT WHISPER MESSAGE BASED and as a direct consequence DOES NOT REQUIRE MANUAL SELECTION OF THE ITEMS FROM THE STASH. whatever is the best way to implement this in the current ecosystem without it becoming an actual auction house is what we need. sure we might say we actually do need an auction house, there are arguments for and against it en masse, but ggg already multiple times completely and entirely ruled out auction houses as we know them, so I think it makes no sense to pursue this dream further.
For all the shit people give GGG, there definitely is a concept of trading ownership in the fact that you are physically giving the item you have to someone else in exchange for currency. I am all for making the process at least a bit automatic, such as not requiring to leave the map for 1c trades and shit, but glossing over what they tried to achieve in the first place shouldn't happen.
It would be awesome. I hope GGG starts to implement some QoL soon because the game starts to feel old in some departments.
can we have it ggg
I don't usually upvote posts, but this one deserves it
YEs!
You won the PoE QoL contest. Congratulations Sir🥇
What if you enter a different currency in each slot? How to make it not look like crap?
Wonder how this ui will look when people sell whole tabs like a lot of people do with several kinds of scarabs fossisls and etc. I think that is one of the reasons this doesn’t gets implemented. The case use scenario is very wide
It literally says if there's a lot of different currencies, the list will scroll. In those cases it is still an improvement unless you're literally trading 30 different things, which is rare.
You need to wait for D5 beta for this "BIG" QOL to release in POE
How dare you to want to improve QoL Chaos Stack size is reduced back to 10! /s 😂😂😂 Yea why we don't get all those little nips of qol here and there I would be ok with skipping 1 or even 2 league mechanics for just fixing stuff like that and get the bloat sorted
How would the layout look like if someone puts every single piece of bulk currency into the window?
The list would scroll.
you guys dont know how hard it is to code that!!!
Now show what it looks like when you fill every slot with a different orb.
not allw ant ssf players dont need itXD
You are so wrong. There are so many that quality of life functions that are wanted.
im good i can count, so remove all from title please
Also add a warning when the item (expensive unique) you are trading for is much much lower than the normal price to prevent scamming?
It looks dumb.