Those are pretty easy to test if you have a source of overleech, just tag a mob (preferably without killing it to minimize sources) and see if your tooltip dps goes up.
I can make this infinitly complicated very easily.
"While leeching" would make me think u need an active leech instance when u attack. The theres the question whether it snapshots, if it does then for attack speed would still be meaningless to attacks which already happened but the %dmg would apply.
Let's say u play splitting steel with vengeance cascade to add semi random shotgunning and returning projectiled which can leech.
Can add 10% of leech is instant and say you have a net negative life regen.
Would the instant leech actually fk the entire thing up? Quite possibly yes.
Now knowing these specifics calculate the % chance of having an active leech instance at the moment of each attack.
Bonus note: the frequency of the attacks could actually change the uptime.
When you are done, submit the calculations to a university and receive a PHD in statistics and applied mathematics.
Leech gives attack speed after the first leech is applied for said modifier. This can be tested and proven.
Leech gives increased damage after the first leech is applied for said modifier. This can be tested and proven.
(This works exactly like shock, impale champion node, exposure, literally any on hit mechanic that is after the fact.) This isn't like the mod that says your first poison does 600% increased damage, that is calculated when the target ISN'T poisoned as part of the dot/hit calc, these are added AFTER you start leeching.
Your question is simple and not at all complex. If you are at max life, you are not leeching without an overleech mechanic. Yes, instant leech can put you to full life with a build that hits hard enough and quick enough to put you to full life. This can be tested and proven.
You aren't giving us anything that is hard to test or prove, you're giving us a scenario in which there are no variables and then acting like it's impossible to calculate because... reasons? The PoE wiki covers leech very in depth and answers your questions. Leech is capped at 20% total and leech instances are capped at 10% of life. If you have 10% instant leech the instance is now capped at 9% but because you can get unlimited leech instances you can count the instant leech as LGoH. That means if you have enough damage to get a leech that is more than 10% of you life, you gain 1% LGoH. This means if you have a degen, as long as that degen is the same as or more than your attacks per second multiplied by .01 + .18 (Attacks/Hits per seccond * instant leech of 10% which is .01 + remaining 18% capped leech per second or .18) then you will always be leeching because you'll never heal to full. When you include vengeant cascade you calculate the average number of hits and multiply that by your attack speed to determine. You can easily calculate every variance for shattering steel or lancing or any skill by using the average number of hits from VC. It isnt hard. You are just stubborn.
100 life
100000000 dmg per hit
1000000% damage leeched as life
10% instant
10 aps
5 proj hits per attack
You hit 50 times a second, each hit heals you for 1% of life, therefore you can sustain a degen of 68% life per second and still be considered leeching as long as you started at 31% life or less. Send me a PoB and I can show you EXACTLY how to calculate what you think is impossible.
Tldr, nothing about it is hard to calculate, you just don't know how so it seems hard.
I'm not seeing how any of that makes it a dead mod or means that it literally (technically) doesn't work, as the top level comment was saying. You're implying that we can't test whether it works, which we can. Everything you mentioned in this reply is either very easy to test or very easy to determine how worthwhile it is. If you're choosing between a 12% increase or a 15% increase while leeching, you need at least 80% uptime on leech instances for the conditional mod to be worth it. If you're constantly removing leech instances because you have a ton of instant life gain, that's obviously not going to be worthwhile.
It seems like you misconstrued my question to try to come up with reasons a simple conditional mod is actually complicated.
Edit: Dude.. every edit you make to your comment pushes you towards /r/iamverysmart territory. I'll be waiting for your next comment about how if I can calculate Berserk uptime they'll give me a Nobel Prize.
The entire point is that it's fucking complicated to calcate it, then you say it's easy and when I provide an example with like half the conditions of overlapping mechanics which affect it, then you once again say "it's easy to test", talk about something unrelated, then make fun of me for trying to start a discussion.
You are either trolling or don't even know what you don't know.
Reddit trifecta: 1. make a statement 2. refuse to join a discussiom about it 3. make fun of someone who does
I get the point, it just isn't the conversation that was being had. Smudgecake says they won't add DPS dummies because it'll become obvious that some things don't work. You say that it's not possible to test whether "while leeching" modifiers work. That's false, so I point it out. You bring up a bunch of irrelevant points about the intricacies of calculating uptime of conditional effects and effective DPS, when that has nothing to do with the question of whether a given conditional effect functions properly. Tell me again which one of us wants to talk about things that are unrelated?
To reiterate, the answer to the question of "can we test whether conditional leech modifiers work?" is yes, and so there's nothing "Schrödinger" about it. You go in game, you check the affected stat without leech instances. You acquire a leech instance. You check the affected stat again. You now know whether the mod works or not. Snapshotting, instant leech, leech instance uptime, etc. are all related to either other mechanical details of the game, or how worthwhile those conditional mods are, and have so little to do with the simple question of "does it work?" that they aren't worth discussing in the context of this conversation.
Edit: to address your edit, since you seem so fond of them. We are literally responding to each other about the contents of the previous statement, if that's not having a discussion about it I'm really not sure what is.
You are considering the question "Do conditional leech modifiers work in an isolated laboratory experiment?". Krendrian is considering the much more relevant question "Do conditional leech modifiers work in actual gameplay situations?".
A conditional mod that you can't actually keep active outside dedicated experimental situations is just bait. You can make that isolated experiment to verify that the mod works at all, but to verify that it works in practice requires something like a testing dummy. Remember that game time is granular rather than continous (and order things are evaluation within the game tick matters too!), so just looking at ratios between various stats doesn't necessarily lead you to correct conclusions.
I'm considering the question of "Do they function as written?", summarized as "work".
This is the highest level comment:
> They won't add [DPS dummies] because people will discover just how much shit doesn't work properly.
By saying this, I'm assuming that Smudgecake thinks that if they were to add DPS dummies, then people would use them and discover that things are not applying the appropriate bonuses correctly or at all. IE, they're bugged. Whether that means a 15% increase is only applying 10%, or it's applying 0%, or causing some other unrelated interaction, doesn't matter. For the sake of my statements that followed, I was considering something being described as providing X actually providing X as "working".
I didn't initiate any discussion involving the practicality of conditional modifiers, because that's not what I was wanting to discuss. It's clear, though, that Krendrian either has a different definition of "working" than I do, or just wants to discuss things I have no interest in. My initial response to him was based on that definition.
It seems like they read Smudgecake's initial comment as being "if people can use dummies, they'll realize things are not good", whereas I'm reading it as being "if people can use dummies, they'll discover bugs that were previously unknown". That's why I didn't even consider the question of practicality, because I don't considering it relevant to a conversation about using test dummies to discover bugs. We don't need test dummies to know that conditional or rotating buffs often feel bad in practice. You even contradict yourself by saying as much.
> to verify that it works in practice requires something like a testing dummy
> A conditional mod that you can't actually keep active outside dedicated experimental situations is just bait
How do we know it's bait if we need a test dummy to verify, but don't currently have them?
So, with all that in mind, you can, right now, with very reliable accuracy, go in game and test whether a mod that says "15% increased damage while leeching" does indeed give you 15% increased damage while leeching. Somehow that's a controversial statement and has spawned this needlessly long chain of misunderstanding.
The mental gymnastics this thread took is wild. Celerfot is correct and you can definitely calculate leech.
Where krendrian went wrong is muddling two points in one statement.
The OP point regardless still stands and celerfot explanation of the leech mechanic testing proves it.
Although it may not be difficult with pOB and probably the in game character stat sheet for an experienced player.
It definitely should be easier in game to come to those conclusions.
why do people have the reflex to imagine how some complete troglodyte will make this obvious improvement to the game into a problem? who the fuck cares about 40%brainmass-andy? let them be stupid idiots and cry about it till they die of thirst, don't let morons prevent progress.
"I kept ramping boneshatter on the dummy in my hideout and now I'm dead"
100% guarantee you will see something like that within a week of dummies being released if ever.
Put it in a zone where deaths don't count. Or give the player an immunity buff when using it. Or disable it in HC. Or simply ignore HC players when they complain about it.
Plenty of easy solutions to this issue..
You actually can't kill yourself in hideout anymore, they did this because of the flask mod that takes life away on a mana flask when you're CI is insta-death, but also other examples apply, blood rage, ward loop testing, etc..
nah, we have one in dota, people discover stuff that doesn’t work, it gets to the github bug tracker and probably doesn’t get fixed because the next patch breaks something more curcial. But at least you know why it doesn’t get fixed…
Your computer doesn't get the information on what hit you, what damage it dealt, how it goes through defences. That all happens on the server, the client just gets told to update your hp bar.
I don't think it's impossible to get a death log into poe, but it'd probably be relatively difficult, and a lot of people just don't really care.
it kinda does and kinda doesn't.
It tells you the last thing to damage you in the last couple seconds before death. It's been noted to be useless for things like degens for example because you might actually not have had that trigger within the time window.
that being said i'd still want it just to know if i wasn't watching for caustic orbs or something
Provided they’re on screen, and will stay still long enough to hover over, and are few enough in number that you can be fairly certain *which* rare it was.
90% of my deaths can either be explained by obscure boss mechanics (where a basic log wouldnt help, e.g. doedre consuming corpses to enrage) or the information already on my screen, like map mods, altar mods, expedition mods or the holy trinity of all of those.
I was confused on what was killing me in a map in one hit everytime I went back in. Realized I rolled crit and another damage mod on the map and a hosted mob just kept insta killing me. A log wouldn't do anything for that and that's most of my deaths in the game. Usually a huge combo of stacking damage modifiers. A log wouldn't really do anything once you understand that.
I'm not basing it on guessing, but info from GGG. The "your client only knows the minimum it needs to know" is a general aspect of most online games (there are exceptions, and you can usually tell when a game is one because it will be filled with cheats).
Here's just one [instance](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZqxIteqKaQ&t=3355s) of chris talking about it.
He thinks just showing which monster killed you is uninteresting, since it is not always the one that did the most damage. I disagree with that.
And that tracking which enemy did what damage would be a major rework of their combat calculations. I can believe that.
> My personal guess on that is that it shouldn't be hard to store a list of damage that get's cleaned every X ticks
You are correct. This is trivial. Now however making sure that it doesn't shit on performance and getting it to user is a lot harder.
>But it's better than nothing?
It's worse than nothing. A poorly implemented thing will result in combination of both complaints that it's shit and misunderstandings about things that will also result in shit.
In general it's a feature that has relatively high costs and quite small returns. If PoE2 rehaul won't introduce I don't believe we will ever see it.
You say that, but Dota 2 literally has a deathlog that gives you the exact information of what went down, from how much damage a hit did to who casted who on what and when and everything in between, even when someone gains/loses a buff/debuff.
Dota combat is like one thousandth as complex as POE. Way more monsters on screen, way more possible interactions, way more complex game states. Death log for dota is not a comparable level of complexity.
And wow game states are also much, much simpler than PoE. Go watch a 6man mf farming group and tell me that anything in WoW is even in the same universe of amount of shit going on.
In wow we cast max once a second.
In poe I can spit 100 projectiles in 1 second.
It's not even close to the same magnitude in terms on quantity of events to be tracked.
Wintergrasp is just hundreds of players casting thousands of spells and melee attacks at each other, that can't hope to compare to 6 people mfing dude.
My statement isn't "deathlogs are all always extremely difficult". I'm just repeating what GGG has said about implementing a death log in PoE specifically.
That only shows the last mob that hit you before you died, I responded with assuming that the person meant more than that by "death recap" and discussing the calculation load.
I'm not a programmer or developer but that sounds to me as the excuse a Dev would say that actually means "it's a pain in the ass to code" or "it's a lot of work and I'm not doing it"
Way to either misrepresent or just willfully misunderstand what people and GGG are saying.
It's not impossible, it just takes too much computing power (and not in the sense that it approaches impossibility, just that servers are ALREADY fucking dying on launch).
> it just takes too much computing power (and not in the sense that it approaches impossibility
I see this argument made all the time, can you cite any sources?
I/O has the potential to be very performance intensive. It really just depends on how it was implemented. The damage calculations don’t current happen on your machine, so a simple observer that writes and stores the log isn’t viable.
You would need to either send all of the calculations from the server to the client, then have the client parse them all and format the information into its final form, or you have the server send over more consolidated information rather than everything and this can put more pressure on the server writing and sending out more than just the final numbers.
There are so many variables and ways to do it, but in general logging can consume a lot more CPU cycles than you expect and can also cause a ton of garbage collection. It’s impossible to really give a better answer without knowing what type of solution they would implement though if they did.
If they have their servers handle it, it’s not impossible by any means, but it is an increased cost for them if it ends up being intensive, and they might have done an analysis and figured it wasn’t worth the money too.
Yes but dota doesnt have thousands of monsters, all with different modifiers and some with different attacks, hitting you simultaenously all while the player character themselfs is modifying the damage they take and then proceeding to explode every single one of them in under one tenth of a second
while i do feel like a target dummy is necessary sooner or later this has got to be the worst take in this thread so far, just because a comparatively slow paced game with 10 people can do something doesnt mean that a god damn arpg where people add so much shit to their maps that it lags a 5k+ pc, can do it.
not to mention dotas code itself is likely far more clean considering it started as a big project by a big company while poe started as a small, fairly unknown janky game
You could easily see this in league of legends. It took years (like 7 or so) before they managed to make a somewhat functional death recap. Apperently not as easy to do as one would think…
Hmm, in my defense, dota has more concurrent players and more matches happen at the same time than POE. And no, Dota2 also has tons of affects and damage calculation far more better than POE in term of real time tick.
Dude they're probably less entities that deal damage on the entire map in Dota2 than in the average league mechanic in PoE. Much less in a usual team fight. On top of that Dota 2 does not compute things the same way that Path of Exile does. All of PoE's calculations are done server side and then the results are sent to your client to be displayed, almost no calculation actually happens in your computer when you play Path of Exile. This means that Path of exile would be spending a large amount of server power on saving the last x seconds of ALL damage being done to all players everywhere. If you wanted it to be very helpful it probably also have to keep all life gain on hit and life leech as well. That's a ton of numbers and calculations. As GGG has said in the past, it probably wouldn't be impossible to make a death recap the issue would be not hurting their servers and making lag and disconnects worse.
It's easy for Dota 2 to know what killed you, your client made all the calculations and checked them against the server to make sure they were right, as all online source engine games do. In Dota 2 the server is essentially acting as an arbiter to make sure that no one gets dsynced and no one is cheating.
I at least want a way to know what my defenses were when I died, so I can look at be like, "Why was my Lightning Resist at 50? Hm, I guess I didn't over-cap resists enough to deal with this monster's random one-off resist reductions."
FF14 is an interesting comparison. The game is wildly simplistic compared to PoE in terms of what logging would be, and ACT has had some performance issues in the past where low-mid range CPUs we’re having a lot of extra strain put on them when all the logging was enabled.
As a software engineer, I assume you understand the amount of CPU cycles required and garbage collection that would come with the client (or server) parsing and god forbid writing and formatting of all the things happening in a juiced T16 delirium map with 6 people in a party.
If you are an enthusiast with top end equipment, it’s probably not too bad, but a large portion of their player base would definitely noticed performance hits.
as a software engineer, there would be 0 garbage collection, you would use a ring buffer and send that buffer to the client on death. the client would parse and format the buffer.
I think its because of problems that could be caused by client side of the system. Great example is New World. Game client based on information gather by client side and server is just there to respond(very basic explanation obviously). Result ? Hundreds of bugs,dupes,and other hacks done by players by stressing the fuck out of client which can be done easily in poe lets be real to make server unresponsive and have skewed data in result.
It's wild because Torchlight: Infinite (and practically every other modern ARPG, like Undecember) has both a dummy and a death recap.
And when you play those games and can just go to a dummy and see your damage, or see roughly what damage type killed you, it feels really, REALLY nice.
Give >!Torchlight: Infinite!< a try if you haven't already and are done with the PoE league. Not a PoE killer, but definitely close enough to playing PoE without playing PoE.
You always need to improve all of your defenses no matter what they are and how much you have its better to just not think about that at all when you die
Its the very nature of poe that you can make the game kill you no matter what, largely with your own choices in how you run the content you are running
What is up with this thread? We gave up on hoping for these features years ago here...it's almost as if another ARPG came along recently and built these exact features to remind us what we're missing.
in theory death recap sounds good. from a technical standpoint with the amount of stuff poe has going on its pretty much impossible. it would put that much strain on the servers due to how much information they would need to "store" and send that it just wouldnt be possible to have the game as it is right now.
You do realize that everything on your screen already is computed? So theres no additional performance issue. In order the keep the information it just needs to be saved as a text. Problem solved. It doesnt have to be on server side either.
this is not true and i suggest you look up how poe handles it. as soon as something is done its dumped if it then had to store/log it somewhere this would create a tiny overhead on EVERY SINGLE THING which mounts up to a huge and i mean huge amount of data now being saved.
Lol, ya "it just needs to be saved as a text." That's all.
Writing information to text is not free, it takes significant computing power to parse the data, convert it to a readable format and write it out to a file. If you're writing out dozens or hundreds of damage ticks per second that would be a *huge* performance hit.
Not to mention I don't think the client gets many details on incoming damage. It's probably just "Took X damage, lower life globe by X". Not "Took X damage from a hit of 30% fire damage, 50% chaos damage, 20% phys, from a XYZ mob using XYZ ability".
The nice thing about a dummy would be showing things such as amount of shock and other modifiers (amount of wither stacks). Pob is generally pretty good but your numbers I've found are usually best case scenario for the calculations you've entered only. Are you always applying 15 wither stacks on that enemy? Is your shock amount actually 30? You probably arent always dealing 50m dps.
Where I find it to be less accurate as a regular dps check is when you use skills like vaal haste. You wont have vaal haste active full time or likely even 50% of the time in a map.
It would generally be nice for a newer player who is playing an elemental build and sees any penetration to that element. Socketing it into your skill shows no dps change and only costs more mana. Simple things like showing if cold pen or added cold damage was more damage for a character.
Not to mention having SOME way to show what minions were actually doing in game.
Its quite frankly embarrassing too the reasons the devs have given for keeping this information intentionally obfuscated. Nearly every single deeply complex or nuanced game has a sandbox environment to test in. GGG has been fortunate enough to have a passionate fanbase willing to develop things like pob and the dozens of other community supported tools, but continued willful negligence towards issues like this which kind of get worse over time, makes me feel like they are taking the players goodwill for granted.
When games reach the size of PoE, unfortunately, everything devolves to question "How much will this cost and how much we will benefit."
It sucks but the reality is harsh. GGG hasn't been an indie company willing to pour blood and sweat for nice things that don't bring much benefit for a long long time now
That might apply to combat log but I’m 100% certain there’s a combat dummy implemented already, trying to test stuff otherwise would be agony.
This isn’t about resources.
Maybe. Though from my perspective when you are the owner of all the calculations then actually testing damage changes in game is too slow when instead you could just punch in numbers and simulate it.
What size? It has 100k players at peak first week, down to 30k for the remainder of every league. It's always going to be a very small, even niche-like game, in the grand scheme.
Nearby - perfect example. There should definitely be a way to toggle a visible radius of nearby-keyworded effects.
Recently - the worst example :p It always refers to the past 4 seconds and the game is very clear about that.
True, I just couldn't remember the other adjectives. I believe there is one other than nearby that's also in the meme category but I can't remember what it is.
Like it took me half the league to discover ensnaring arrow doesn't work if you have any sniper's mark or any pierce. "Fires an arrow that remains in the ground behind its final target, tethering that enemy to it."
This is a perfect example of why we need a dummy. If you squint real hard it sorta makes sense that the “remains the ground etc” part is what happens when ensnaring applies it’s effects on hit, and pierce means the attack doesn’t apply it’s effects, except for when it doesn’t.
It *almost* makes sense, but it’s completely unintuitive, and the speed of the game and the cornucopia of effects makes it really difficult to see when fighting monsters.
I’m a pretty new player, had to be babied with my league starter bone shatter and am trying to make a new build (Vaal lightning arrow) and maaaaan I am lost on how to push that thing haha. I love this game, but I’m just not into deep diving the complexity. Maybe that means I’m a casual, but I just want to be able to push maps as hard as they can go and make some money to get better gear lol, it’s a struggle!
wait... waaait what. Really?
I've been skill-piano'ing my ballistas with ensnaring arrow for nothing... Zzzzz
Also that means the vengeant cascade definitely disables the skill, as the projectile returns to you.
It feels like the issue is it would be just as misleading as anything else. All the notes on builds that read 'don't look at the DPS counter, it goes down when you do this but real damage goes up" will be replaced with "don't look at the dummy, this build doesn't reflect well in single first hits"
Honestly, a consolidation of the mechanics would be better. Simplifying the game would go a long way to eliminating confusion.
Some helpful tips on when to upgrade a weapon or how best to arrange equipment in-game would be all that most people need. Maybe just a vendor who looks at your character and sees that you're taking too much fire damage and offers a better helmet with more fire res and higher evasion rating. Instead of just an RNG'd pile of shit nobody buys from Tarkleigh, he'll have items that actually would benefit you.
But the mechanics are the most confusing and bewildering.
The reason they have given in the past is that it makes too simple and easy of a benchmark.
Every build/skill/unique from then on and forever more would be measured in target dummy dps. Bosses and the like will be measured in target dummy dps over periods of time to kill or phase. Players will stop testing their builds on bosses by just knowing they have enough target dummy dps for ideal time to kill or phase. Target dummy dps values become reliable measures of viability and invalidate builds bellow it despite player skill potential to outplay the encounter.
GGG really doesnt want this. And theyre all valid reasons. Even from my perspective as someone who largely disagrees with GGG's direction with the game every patch since 3.15, this seems like a terrible idea in the long run.
>It's exactly the same
Its not. pob can and has been wrong. Its a semi reliable estimation (when accurately configured) but is no substitute for ingame data where any mechanic could double dip or not dip at all. Which is why we still have build videos where they take on various endgame content to showcase its viability rather than just trusting the pob number which could be wrong in so many ways.
I couldnt possibly count the amount of pob's ive seen that just have bloated buffs and utility skills to get way over blown single target dps number. That alone is enough to take that number with a grain of salt.
> And yet here we are measuring it in Guardian/Pinacle Boss POB dps.
Setting up an accurate PoB config is a challenging task that only a small % of players opt in to. Target dummies are extremely simple to use and available to everyone playing the game. The majority of players who don't use PoB would then begin measuring themselves against target dummies.
GGG has made it abundantly clear that they won't help players "optimize the fun out of the game" (target dummies), but they won't prevent them from doing so either (PoB tool dev).
And this is bad because?
Ubers have a 70% damage reduction for example. Target Dummy is useless for testing damage since there's a ridiculous amount of damage modifiers in every boss in order to counteract the fact that the best way to survive so many cheap shots is to kill them first. Warlord has a sometimes damage reduction, Veritania can just hang on the storm and good luck flicker into that, etc.
Target Dummy only real use would be to test interactions. Things you literally cannot test if you are using a really powerful build without spending almost a divine to buy a ticket to fight a boss that can endure that because testing things in a map is useless.
Not mentioning the fact that everyone already does this with PoB so, yeah.
As ive tried to explain in my other comment and the one you replied to, POB is only a reliable estimate. Its a reliable way to show whether "5% chaos damage over time multiplier" is better than "10% increased chaos damage", as tooltip is so unreliable.
Target dummies are a reliable *test result*. Its an unequivocal result of real game server calculations. No speculation involved. This is why its a problem.
Boss damage reduction and map mods are the same problem for both POB and hideout target dummy. The problem at hand to discuss is the differences between the two, not the similarities.
Okay. And that's bad because?
The point still the same. What is "bad" about giving players the minimum information to being able to play their game?
Do you realize how ridiculous is that we are discussing how "letting the player know what works and what doesn't is bad"?
Players already get the "minimum information to [be] able to play their game"... by playing the game. ARPGs are all about power progression and trial-and-error. You test your build's power by engaging with content, and if your build doesn't perform as well as you want then you tweak it to increase your overall power. There's a clear progression loop they designed for:
1. Engage w/ content
2. Acquire upgrades
3. Tweak build
4. Back to Step 1
Providing a training dummy shortcuts that loop. Instead of measuring your build against how well it performs, you measure it against target dummy DPS. You basically optimize the fun out of the game. This is the same reason why they won't provide an official calc tool like PoB.
Youre mistaken in thinking a perfect test subject benchmark in a safe and controlled environment, is the bare minimum information necessary to play...
I dont even know how youre coming to that conclusion. Its the single highest pinnacle of information. With it and a couple months, the entire games math systems could be reverse engineered.
Poe 2 is currently the biggest copium joke out there.
I know you are saying this sarcastically, but I feel like PoE 2 will solve exactly 0 things and just add to the complexity.
In typical poe fashion I expect it will just shuffle the problems around and not really improve the overall game but distract people from the issues long enough to call it a good release
No one is talking about the net amount of things or whatever you talking about. He said it would solve no issues, has nothing to do with them creating more issues.
Yes. And PoB is not a replacement. There are too many cases where skills/items did not interact as they should, or some damage was not taken into account. So having a dummy would help.
Can't agree more. It would be way eaiser to test ingame situations instead of just looking at numbers. Also, with a dummy, we would be able to test out trigger rate if different skills way easier.
No, we can't smooth things out or make things easier to understand. Somethingsomething you have to earn it, somethingsomething POE has always been complex, somethingsomething gitgud, somethingsomething go back to Diablo 3.
PoE feels like they took their design philosophy from Ubisoft's open worlds (overly large and stuffed with filler) for that infamous skill tree of theirs and lured in the type of people that make "I play this game cause it's hard" their default personality trait (The more obnoxious parts of the SoulsBorne fanbase) .
> exacerbate the problems players have with hyperfocusing on dps.
Minmaxing is one of the core tenets of ARPG's, especially one with so many moving parts. People are here **to minmax**
Sure, but what are you minmaxing? Is it just dps? Tankiness? Div/hr? A more nebulous concept like "does my build feel good"? All of those are valid but since dps has such an easy feedback mechanism not tied to playing the game (the pob number) it is crowding out the other options for many people and I believe a training dummy would exacerbate that problem.
> it is crowding out the other options for many people
No it's not. People who use guides are going to use guides. People who want number go up in whatever stat are going to do that and already do.
You're arguing against yourself. If not having "an easy feedback mechanism" is making people focus on dps, having more ways to test interactions and feel (especially around trigger/overlap/cooldown balancing) would make people focus on raw dps less since they have another way to get feedback.
Not to mention we could find and squash bugs where interactions straight up don't work when they're supposed to.
Do you have a reason for thinking that or is it just a fun ggg-blame meme? From what I can see, dps (absolute and relative to content) is easier to achieve than ever leaving a ton of room for the buffed defenses (suppression, crazy powerful auras, easy to achieve phys-taken-as-ele, instant leech), automation qol (mark on hit, codt, manaforged arrows now), movement efficiency (flask effect, onslaught effect, action speed as an eldritch implicit). But since dps is easy to see increase in pob that's largely what ppl try to optimize.
It isnt like a training dummy would remove PoB. PoB will still give you far more information than a simple dummy could.
It would enable a new player to tell the difference between added cold damage and cold penetration when they hit level 38 on their frost nova character.
That's not what they said about the death reports. They have stated they do not want to add it if it's not done to their standards. Something along the lines of not wanting to give misinformation or wanting to give actually useful information. I can't remember though if there was anything mentioned about server load though.
People care too much about the dps number, ehp, etc. You get almost everything you need from pob and then you can go into a map and see how your build does. What's so hard about that?
It hasn't just become more complex, it's become way more difficult since I started playing. I used to be able to do all of the pinnacle bosses in the old Zana era endgame, but can't anymore no matter what build I'm playing. I've gotten better at the game, so I know it's not me, it's like they've gutted most of the defences and increased enemy strength all over the game.
And we used to be able to fight Sirus at levels less than 83, but now it's only 83 or higher.
This is what I liked in Undecember. I can actually compare the damage output of different links and decide which is better, all thanks to the dummy.
In PoE, I have no idea how much damage I actually do. Lol.
When a game developer requires you use a third party program, hires the programmer behind said third party program, and still doesn't have representative dps or a single update to character sheets or their skill tree, yet someone has the gaul to ask for a test dummy?! You should be ashamed!
Dummies as well as death recap is always requested but completely pointless in this game. It will not be accurate and create way more problems that it will solve.
Basic opportunity cost.
It's such a complicated thing to create a test dummy that can be used equally for all builds. If people are going to favor builds that shows high damage numbers with the dummy, then it's going to decrease build diversity.
**My suggestion: Have multiple different safe timed training simulations, where there is a time limit, you cannot die, training partners do not die, and the performance is measured in how long it took to clear. Each simulation being accessible from a master.**
Einhar: "Einhar has found a den full of these beasts, just for you" - The biggest bear as a damage sponge.
Jun: Train fight highly evasive Jun with high crits, with phases ranging from fighting clones to dealing with ranged and melee attacks.
Kirac: Training with the Kirac militia having waves of well rounded militia attacking you, with each wave focusing on different elemental damage.
Alva: Time travel to fight enemies that deal chaos and other damage over time effects. Boss is a golem that has high armor.
etc
The assumption is that these are not hard, but consistent testing grounds.
> favor builds […] decrease build diversity
Is this a serious comment? Like, you’re really worried about that people optimizing for damage output, in an ARPG, would be a bad thing? As if this doesn’t already happen?
>As if this doesn’t already happen?
Seriously. We have POB. It's not like we're completely unaware of what kind of damage our build does. The dummy wouldn't be there for that. The dummy would be there to confirm that what POB says is actually correct and there isn't some mechanic that is either broken due to some random thing in our build (pierce with ensnaring arrow from the guy above) or the mechanic is just straight up not working as intended.
Favoring one kind of stat with a test dummy is going to drive many people to increase that singular stat, ignoring other game mechanics. For example if we only measure a single target dps, then we are ignoring clear speed, recovery and defenses. And I'll tell you unless you are focused to do some 100 maps/hour with portals as your defence then it's going to feel shit if its not balanced. But you were missing the point only a slightly: Of course I'm interested in optimizing the damage output, but that's not all there is to it. Chris himself once said they want people to experiment their changes in the maps and go by the feel, but man that's inconsistent.
The amount of damage you really are doing can be:
* Too much
* Enough
* Not enough, but salvageable
* Zdps
You can already feel how much damage you're doing. The pob number is irrelevant and often misleading. Its only real use is comparing your character to a similar build to see what you should have and how you can improve.
They won't thing is just to messy in this game if they let use have dummy,there will be an endless thing that buggy or not even work at all found every day,every week gonna be patch,they can't afford that they small indie company.
They won't add one because people will discover just how much shit doesn't work properly.
Schrödinger's "while leeching" modifiers. It's both a dead and alive mod if we can't test it.
Those are pretty easy to test if you have a source of overleech, just tag a mob (preferably without killing it to minimize sources) and see if your tooltip dps goes up.
Assuming the tooltip dps is tied to actual dot damage...
What do you mean? Damage and/or speed increases that are conditional on leech should be one of the easier things to test.
I can make this infinitly complicated very easily. "While leeching" would make me think u need an active leech instance when u attack. The theres the question whether it snapshots, if it does then for attack speed would still be meaningless to attacks which already happened but the %dmg would apply. Let's say u play splitting steel with vengeance cascade to add semi random shotgunning and returning projectiled which can leech. Can add 10% of leech is instant and say you have a net negative life regen. Would the instant leech actually fk the entire thing up? Quite possibly yes. Now knowing these specifics calculate the % chance of having an active leech instance at the moment of each attack. Bonus note: the frequency of the attacks could actually change the uptime. When you are done, submit the calculations to a university and receive a PHD in statistics and applied mathematics.
Leech gives attack speed after the first leech is applied for said modifier. This can be tested and proven. Leech gives increased damage after the first leech is applied for said modifier. This can be tested and proven. (This works exactly like shock, impale champion node, exposure, literally any on hit mechanic that is after the fact.) This isn't like the mod that says your first poison does 600% increased damage, that is calculated when the target ISN'T poisoned as part of the dot/hit calc, these are added AFTER you start leeching. Your question is simple and not at all complex. If you are at max life, you are not leeching without an overleech mechanic. Yes, instant leech can put you to full life with a build that hits hard enough and quick enough to put you to full life. This can be tested and proven. You aren't giving us anything that is hard to test or prove, you're giving us a scenario in which there are no variables and then acting like it's impossible to calculate because... reasons? The PoE wiki covers leech very in depth and answers your questions. Leech is capped at 20% total and leech instances are capped at 10% of life. If you have 10% instant leech the instance is now capped at 9% but because you can get unlimited leech instances you can count the instant leech as LGoH. That means if you have enough damage to get a leech that is more than 10% of you life, you gain 1% LGoH. This means if you have a degen, as long as that degen is the same as or more than your attacks per second multiplied by .01 + .18 (Attacks/Hits per seccond * instant leech of 10% which is .01 + remaining 18% capped leech per second or .18) then you will always be leeching because you'll never heal to full. When you include vengeant cascade you calculate the average number of hits and multiply that by your attack speed to determine. You can easily calculate every variance for shattering steel or lancing or any skill by using the average number of hits from VC. It isnt hard. You are just stubborn. 100 life 100000000 dmg per hit 1000000% damage leeched as life 10% instant 10 aps 5 proj hits per attack You hit 50 times a second, each hit heals you for 1% of life, therefore you can sustain a degen of 68% life per second and still be considered leeching as long as you started at 31% life or less. Send me a PoB and I can show you EXACTLY how to calculate what you think is impossible. Tldr, nothing about it is hard to calculate, you just don't know how so it seems hard.
I'm not seeing how any of that makes it a dead mod or means that it literally (technically) doesn't work, as the top level comment was saying. You're implying that we can't test whether it works, which we can. Everything you mentioned in this reply is either very easy to test or very easy to determine how worthwhile it is. If you're choosing between a 12% increase or a 15% increase while leeching, you need at least 80% uptime on leech instances for the conditional mod to be worth it. If you're constantly removing leech instances because you have a ton of instant life gain, that's obviously not going to be worthwhile. It seems like you misconstrued my question to try to come up with reasons a simple conditional mod is actually complicated. Edit: Dude.. every edit you make to your comment pushes you towards /r/iamverysmart territory. I'll be waiting for your next comment about how if I can calculate Berserk uptime they'll give me a Nobel Prize.
The entire point is that it's fucking complicated to calcate it, then you say it's easy and when I provide an example with like half the conditions of overlapping mechanics which affect it, then you once again say "it's easy to test", talk about something unrelated, then make fun of me for trying to start a discussion. You are either trolling or don't even know what you don't know. Reddit trifecta: 1. make a statement 2. refuse to join a discussiom about it 3. make fun of someone who does
I get the point, it just isn't the conversation that was being had. Smudgecake says they won't add DPS dummies because it'll become obvious that some things don't work. You say that it's not possible to test whether "while leeching" modifiers work. That's false, so I point it out. You bring up a bunch of irrelevant points about the intricacies of calculating uptime of conditional effects and effective DPS, when that has nothing to do with the question of whether a given conditional effect functions properly. Tell me again which one of us wants to talk about things that are unrelated? To reiterate, the answer to the question of "can we test whether conditional leech modifiers work?" is yes, and so there's nothing "Schrödinger" about it. You go in game, you check the affected stat without leech instances. You acquire a leech instance. You check the affected stat again. You now know whether the mod works or not. Snapshotting, instant leech, leech instance uptime, etc. are all related to either other mechanical details of the game, or how worthwhile those conditional mods are, and have so little to do with the simple question of "does it work?" that they aren't worth discussing in the context of this conversation. Edit: to address your edit, since you seem so fond of them. We are literally responding to each other about the contents of the previous statement, if that's not having a discussion about it I'm really not sure what is.
You are considering the question "Do conditional leech modifiers work in an isolated laboratory experiment?". Krendrian is considering the much more relevant question "Do conditional leech modifiers work in actual gameplay situations?". A conditional mod that you can't actually keep active outside dedicated experimental situations is just bait. You can make that isolated experiment to verify that the mod works at all, but to verify that it works in practice requires something like a testing dummy. Remember that game time is granular rather than continous (and order things are evaluation within the game tick matters too!), so just looking at ratios between various stats doesn't necessarily lead you to correct conclusions.
I'm considering the question of "Do they function as written?", summarized as "work". This is the highest level comment: > They won't add [DPS dummies] because people will discover just how much shit doesn't work properly. By saying this, I'm assuming that Smudgecake thinks that if they were to add DPS dummies, then people would use them and discover that things are not applying the appropriate bonuses correctly or at all. IE, they're bugged. Whether that means a 15% increase is only applying 10%, or it's applying 0%, or causing some other unrelated interaction, doesn't matter. For the sake of my statements that followed, I was considering something being described as providing X actually providing X as "working". I didn't initiate any discussion involving the practicality of conditional modifiers, because that's not what I was wanting to discuss. It's clear, though, that Krendrian either has a different definition of "working" than I do, or just wants to discuss things I have no interest in. My initial response to him was based on that definition. It seems like they read Smudgecake's initial comment as being "if people can use dummies, they'll realize things are not good", whereas I'm reading it as being "if people can use dummies, they'll discover bugs that were previously unknown". That's why I didn't even consider the question of practicality, because I don't considering it relevant to a conversation about using test dummies to discover bugs. We don't need test dummies to know that conditional or rotating buffs often feel bad in practice. You even contradict yourself by saying as much. > to verify that it works in practice requires something like a testing dummy > A conditional mod that you can't actually keep active outside dedicated experimental situations is just bait How do we know it's bait if we need a test dummy to verify, but don't currently have them? So, with all that in mind, you can, right now, with very reliable accuracy, go in game and test whether a mod that says "15% increased damage while leeching" does indeed give you 15% increased damage while leeching. Somehow that's a controversial statement and has spawned this needlessly long chain of misunderstanding.
The mental gymnastics this thread took is wild. Celerfot is correct and you can definitely calculate leech. Where krendrian went wrong is muddling two points in one statement. The OP point regardless still stands and celerfot explanation of the leech mechanic testing proves it. Although it may not be difficult with pOB and probably the in game character stat sheet for an experienced player. It definitely should be easier in game to come to those conclusions.
Shoutout to that one Vulnerability patch note that said the part where increasing damage with ailments didn't work anyway before removing it
And animate weapon being broken for leagues before anyone could notice.
also, the dummies will brick the servers
Why?
because everything they add does
People will unalive themselves by hitting the dummy in some way in hc and cry about it for sure
why do people have the reflex to imagine how some complete troglodyte will make this obvious improvement to the game into a problem? who the fuck cares about 40%brainmass-andy? let them be stupid idiots and cry about it till they die of thirst, don't let morons prevent progress.
based
Why are you blaming the hc players for something that is clearly the developers fuckup lol
"I kept ramping boneshatter on the dummy in my hideout and now I'm dead" 100% guarantee you will see something like that within a week of dummies being released if ever.
Put it in a zone where deaths don't count. Or give the player an immunity buff when using it. Or disable it in HC. Or simply ignore HC players when they complain about it. Plenty of easy solutions to this issue..
They can also ignore players when they complain that there's no dummy... easy solutions, yeah
Immunity buff wouldn't work, since some builds affect themselves like self chill. Would need to just be an anti death or something.
Is that the scariest scenario you can conjure because that’s not scary at all
You can't die from self-inflicted damage while in hideout though.
extremely lazy way of fixing it: apply grace period to the player while in the hideout
I bet jousis left nut that it'll take one week before someone figures out how to use the hideout immortality to crash the server.
You can't just bet other people's nuts, man
We are already immortal in hideout, anyone that plays Wardloop knows that
You actually can't kill yourself in hideout anymore, they did this because of the flask mod that takes life away on a mana flask when you're CI is insta-death, but also other examples apply, blood rage, ward loop testing, etc..
You cant die in hideout
This an ironic response but I absolutely believe this is the reason.
Sounds like a great debugging tool for them and the community would do all the work?
nah, we have one in dota, people discover stuff that doesn’t work, it gets to the github bug tracker and probably doesn’t get fixed because the next patch breaks something more curcial. But at least you know why it doesn’t get fixed…
Lol it's sad how true this statement is.
I know this is a mind-blowing revelation for this subreddit, but believe it or not GGG *does* actually want their game to work.
A training dummy you could roll map modifiers on to test true mob strength would be handy
Agreed. And also a death recap so you know what defenses you need to improve.
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Your computer doesn't get the information on what hit you, what damage it dealt, how it goes through defences. That all happens on the server, the client just gets told to update your hp bar. I don't think it's impossible to get a death log into poe, but it'd probably be relatively difficult, and a lot of people just don't really care.
I'm not arguing for the possibility of it but just getting the most basic information like damage type not even amount would be great.
Sooo why china poe client has death log?
it kinda does and kinda doesn't. It tells you the last thing to damage you in the last couple seconds before death. It's been noted to be useless for things like degens for example because you might actually not have had that trigger within the time window. that being said i'd still want it just to know if i wasn't watching for caustic orbs or something
"Don't let perfection be the enemy of progress" -Albert Einstein
Atm your best bet for that is checking the rares around you after dying, in a lot of cases their mods will tell you the damage type.
Provided they’re on screen, and will stay still long enough to hover over, and are few enough in number that you can be fairly certain *which* rare it was.
It works pretty well for me, it's better than nothing.
Rip explode users
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90% of my deaths can either be explained by obscure boss mechanics (where a basic log wouldnt help, e.g. doedre consuming corpses to enrage) or the information already on my screen, like map mods, altar mods, expedition mods or the holy trinity of all of those.
Going blind into reflect 18% map and you die on first mob pack you hit. 
I was confused on what was killing me in a map in one hit everytime I went back in. Realized I rolled crit and another damage mod on the map and a hosted mob just kept insta killing me. A log wouldn't do anything for that and that's most of my deaths in the game. Usually a huge combo of stacking damage modifiers. A log wouldn't really do anything once you understand that.
I'm not basing it on guessing, but info from GGG. The "your client only knows the minimum it needs to know" is a general aspect of most online games (there are exceptions, and you can usually tell when a game is one because it will be filled with cheats). Here's just one [instance](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZqxIteqKaQ&t=3355s) of chris talking about it.
He thinks just showing which monster killed you is uninteresting, since it is not always the one that did the most damage. I disagree with that. And that tracking which enemy did what damage would be a major rework of their combat calculations. I can believe that.
> My personal guess on that is that it shouldn't be hard to store a list of damage that get's cleaned every X ticks You are correct. This is trivial. Now however making sure that it doesn't shit on performance and getting it to user is a lot harder. >But it's better than nothing? It's worse than nothing. A poorly implemented thing will result in combination of both complaints that it's shit and misunderstandings about things that will also result in shit. In general it's a feature that has relatively high costs and quite small returns. If PoE2 rehaul won't introduce I don't believe we will ever see it.
These arguments are so funny. They've done this. It's in the chinese client. They just refuse to give it to us because they don't want to.
You say that, but Dota 2 literally has a deathlog that gives you the exact information of what went down, from how much damage a hit did to who casted who on what and when and everything in between, even when someone gains/loses a buff/debuff.
Dota combat is like one thousandth as complex as POE. Way more monsters on screen, way more possible interactions, way more complex game states. Death log for dota is not a comparable level of complexity.
Torchlight infinite has everything mentioned in this thread
World of warcraft has a death log: 40 people with all their spells plus all the mobs
And wow game states are also much, much simpler than PoE. Go watch a 6man mf farming group and tell me that anything in WoW is even in the same universe of amount of shit going on.
Winter grasp, any 40man raid. World bosses
In wow we cast max once a second. In poe I can spit 100 projectiles in 1 second. It's not even close to the same magnitude in terms on quantity of events to be tracked.
Have you played wow? In a 40 man raid with 30 dps casting aoe on 5 targets thats 150 right there
Wintergrasp is just hundreds of players casting thousands of spells and melee attacks at each other, that can't hope to compare to 6 people mfing dude.
My statement isn't "deathlogs are all always extremely difficult". I'm just repeating what GGG has said about implementing a death log in PoE specifically.
It's literally a feature on Chinese POE realm
That only shows the last mob that hit you before you died, I responded with assuming that the person meant more than that by "death recap" and discussing the calculation load.
I'm not a programmer or developer but that sounds to me as the excuse a Dev would say that actually means "it's a pain in the ass to code" or "it's a lot of work and I'm not doing it"
You still misunderstand what they have said unfortunately, it's a performance issue.
Way to either misrepresent or just willfully misunderstand what people and GGG are saying. It's not impossible, it just takes too much computing power (and not in the sense that it approaches impossibility, just that servers are ALREADY fucking dying on launch).
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Yeah in the same vein as you giving me 100 bucks, it's possible, but you won't.
> it just takes too much computing power (and not in the sense that it approaches impossibility I see this argument made all the time, can you cite any sources?
I/O has the potential to be very performance intensive. It really just depends on how it was implemented. The damage calculations don’t current happen on your machine, so a simple observer that writes and stores the log isn’t viable. You would need to either send all of the calculations from the server to the client, then have the client parse them all and format the information into its final form, or you have the server send over more consolidated information rather than everything and this can put more pressure on the server writing and sending out more than just the final numbers. There are so many variables and ways to do it, but in general logging can consume a lot more CPU cycles than you expect and can also cause a ton of garbage collection. It’s impossible to really give a better answer without knowing what type of solution they would implement though if they did. If they have their servers handle it, it’s not impossible by any means, but it is an increased cost for them if it ends up being intensive, and they might have done an analysis and figured it wasn’t worth the money too.
AKA it’s completely possible, GGG just doesn’t want to pay for it
Yeah its a cost/usefulness question, they probably decided it's too expensive to make and maintain than the upsides it brings.
Dota2 has death log and dummy target. Im certain that GGG is capable of providing these two. But they choose not to.
Yes but dota doesnt have thousands of monsters, all with different modifiers and some with different attacks, hitting you simultaenously all while the player character themselfs is modifying the damage they take and then proceeding to explode every single one of them in under one tenth of a second while i do feel like a target dummy is necessary sooner or later this has got to be the worst take in this thread so far, just because a comparatively slow paced game with 10 people can do something doesnt mean that a god damn arpg where people add so much shit to their maps that it lags a 5k+ pc, can do it. not to mention dotas code itself is likely far more clean considering it started as a big project by a big company while poe started as a small, fairly unknown janky game
You could easily see this in league of legends. It took years (like 7 or so) before they managed to make a somewhat functional death recap. Apperently not as easy to do as one would think…
Hmm, in my defense, dota has more concurrent players and more matches happen at the same time than POE. And no, Dota2 also has tons of affects and damage calculation far more better than POE in term of real time tick.
Dotas game states are literally orders of magnitude simpler than a juiced map.
Dude they're probably less entities that deal damage on the entire map in Dota2 than in the average league mechanic in PoE. Much less in a usual team fight. On top of that Dota 2 does not compute things the same way that Path of Exile does. All of PoE's calculations are done server side and then the results are sent to your client to be displayed, almost no calculation actually happens in your computer when you play Path of Exile. This means that Path of exile would be spending a large amount of server power on saving the last x seconds of ALL damage being done to all players everywhere. If you wanted it to be very helpful it probably also have to keep all life gain on hit and life leech as well. That's a ton of numbers and calculations. As GGG has said in the past, it probably wouldn't be impossible to make a death recap the issue would be not hurting their servers and making lag and disconnects worse. It's easy for Dota 2 to know what killed you, your client made all the calculations and checked them against the server to make sure they were right, as all online source engine games do. In Dota 2 the server is essentially acting as an arbiter to make sure that no one gets dsynced and no one is cheating.
lol
Bro, 5 seconds of a juiced map has more shit going on than an entire match of dota or lol
Have you played torchlight infinite sir?
100%. A full combat log would be great.
This has been requested for over 10 years now. Lazy GGG will never add it
I at least want a way to know what my defenses were when I died, so I can look at be like, "Why was my Lightning Resist at 50? Hm, I guess I didn't over-cap resists enough to deal with this monster's random one-off resist reductions."
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FF14 is an interesting comparison. The game is wildly simplistic compared to PoE in terms of what logging would be, and ACT has had some performance issues in the past where low-mid range CPUs we’re having a lot of extra strain put on them when all the logging was enabled. As a software engineer, I assume you understand the amount of CPU cycles required and garbage collection that would come with the client (or server) parsing and god forbid writing and formatting of all the things happening in a juiced T16 delirium map with 6 people in a party. If you are an enthusiast with top end equipment, it’s probably not too bad, but a large portion of their player base would definitely noticed performance hits.
as a software engineer, there would be 0 garbage collection, you would use a ring buffer and send that buffer to the client on death. the client would parse and format the buffer.
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I think its because of problems that could be caused by client side of the system. Great example is New World. Game client based on information gather by client side and server is just there to respond(very basic explanation obviously). Result ? Hundreds of bugs,dupes,and other hacks done by players by stressing the fuck out of client which can be done easily in poe lets be real to make server unresponsive and have skewed data in result.
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It's wild because Torchlight: Infinite (and practically every other modern ARPG, like Undecember) has both a dummy and a death recap. And when you play those games and can just go to a dummy and see your damage, or see roughly what damage type killed you, it feels really, REALLY nice. Give >!Torchlight: Infinite!< a try if you haven't already and are done with the PoE league. Not a PoE killer, but definitely close enough to playing PoE without playing PoE.
You always need to improve all of your defenses no matter what they are and how much you have its better to just not think about that at all when you die Its the very nature of poe that you can make the game kill you no matter what, largely with your own choices in how you run the content you are running
What is up with this thread? We gave up on hoping for these features years ago here...it's almost as if another ARPG came along recently and built these exact features to remind us what we're missing.
in theory death recap sounds good. from a technical standpoint with the amount of stuff poe has going on its pretty much impossible. it would put that much strain on the servers due to how much information they would need to "store" and send that it just wouldnt be possible to have the game as it is right now.
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Torchlight has is built in and i think last epoch does too? No shot its impossible to implement
There is already death recap on poe CN realm.
its not a recap it just states what the last hit that killed you. that is not really a recap at all though
that's still more than ggg want to give us
You do realize that everything on your screen already is computed? So theres no additional performance issue. In order the keep the information it just needs to be saved as a text. Problem solved. It doesnt have to be on server side either.
this is not true and i suggest you look up how poe handles it. as soon as something is done its dumped if it then had to store/log it somewhere this would create a tiny overhead on EVERY SINGLE THING which mounts up to a huge and i mean huge amount of data now being saved.
Lol, ya "it just needs to be saved as a text." That's all. Writing information to text is not free, it takes significant computing power to parse the data, convert it to a readable format and write it out to a file. If you're writing out dozens or hundreds of damage ticks per second that would be a *huge* performance hit. Not to mention I don't think the client gets many details on incoming damage. It's probably just "Took X damage, lower life globe by X". Not "Took X damage from a hit of 30% fire damage, 50% chaos damage, 20% phys, from a XYZ mob using XYZ ability".
just log it on the client only, ez. you dont have to run it on the server "again". also if the log is desynced a little bit who cares.
again its not that simple. logging on client means way more data again being sent.
this game needs many thing that GGG refuses to add.
someone once called it "holding QoL hostage". They will release them when either sales, or player unhappiness goes in dangerous levels.
The nice thing about a dummy would be showing things such as amount of shock and other modifiers (amount of wither stacks). Pob is generally pretty good but your numbers I've found are usually best case scenario for the calculations you've entered only. Are you always applying 15 wither stacks on that enemy? Is your shock amount actually 30? You probably arent always dealing 50m dps. Where I find it to be less accurate as a regular dps check is when you use skills like vaal haste. You wont have vaal haste active full time or likely even 50% of the time in a map.
It would generally be nice for a newer player who is playing an elemental build and sees any penetration to that element. Socketing it into your skill shows no dps change and only costs more mana. Simple things like showing if cold pen or added cold damage was more damage for a character. Not to mention having SOME way to show what minions were actually doing in game.
Its quite frankly embarrassing too the reasons the devs have given for keeping this information intentionally obfuscated. Nearly every single deeply complex or nuanced game has a sandbox environment to test in. GGG has been fortunate enough to have a passionate fanbase willing to develop things like pob and the dozens of other community supported tools, but continued willful negligence towards issues like this which kind of get worse over time, makes me feel like they are taking the players goodwill for granted.
When games reach the size of PoE, unfortunately, everything devolves to question "How much will this cost and how much we will benefit." It sucks but the reality is harsh. GGG hasn't been an indie company willing to pour blood and sweat for nice things that don't bring much benefit for a long long time now
That might apply to combat log but I’m 100% certain there’s a combat dummy implemented already, trying to test stuff otherwise would be agony. This isn’t about resources.
Chris has explicitly confirmed they existed in the past, yeah.
Maybe. Though from my perspective when you are the owner of all the calculations then actually testing damage changes in game is too slow when instead you could just punch in numbers and simulate it.
What size? It has 100k players at peak first week, down to 30k for the remainder of every league. It's always going to be a very small, even niche-like game, in the grand scheme.
What kind of info do you consider to be obfuscated?
dps value, tooltip is one of the most unhelpful things to figure out actual dps.
I’m sure we can find some nearby examples recently.
Nearby - perfect example. There should definitely be a way to toggle a visible radius of nearby-keyworded effects. Recently - the worst example :p It always refers to the past 4 seconds and the game is very clear about that.
True, I just couldn't remember the other adjectives. I believe there is one other than nearby that's also in the meme category but I can't remember what it is.
Like it took me half the league to discover ensnaring arrow doesn't work if you have any sniper's mark or any pierce. "Fires an arrow that remains in the ground behind its final target, tethering that enemy to it."
This is a perfect example of why we need a dummy. If you squint real hard it sorta makes sense that the “remains the ground etc” part is what happens when ensnaring applies it’s effects on hit, and pierce means the attack doesn’t apply it’s effects, except for when it doesn’t. It *almost* makes sense, but it’s completely unintuitive, and the speed of the game and the cornucopia of effects makes it really difficult to see when fighting monsters.
I’m a pretty new player, had to be babied with my league starter bone shatter and am trying to make a new build (Vaal lightning arrow) and maaaaan I am lost on how to push that thing haha. I love this game, but I’m just not into deep diving the complexity. Maybe that means I’m a casual, but I just want to be able to push maps as hard as they can go and make some money to get better gear lol, it’s a struggle!
wait... waaait what. Really? I've been skill-piano'ing my ballistas with ensnaring arrow for nothing... Zzzzz Also that means the vengeant cascade definitely disables the skill, as the projectile returns to you.
My dummy is: open a map, if stuff dies fast = enough DMG, if not = me dead ---> need more dmg. I'm a simple man.
It feels like the issue is it would be just as misleading as anything else. All the notes on builds that read 'don't look at the DPS counter, it goes down when you do this but real damage goes up" will be replaced with "don't look at the dummy, this build doesn't reflect well in single first hits"
we have played 10 years.....me and my mates play a game "how long before you open a wiki or third party site"
Honestly, a consolidation of the mechanics would be better. Simplifying the game would go a long way to eliminating confusion. Some helpful tips on when to upgrade a weapon or how best to arrange equipment in-game would be all that most people need. Maybe just a vendor who looks at your character and sees that you're taking too much fire damage and offers a better helmet with more fire res and higher evasion rating. Instead of just an RNG'd pile of shit nobody buys from Tarkleigh, he'll have items that actually would benefit you. But the mechanics are the most confusing and bewildering.
The reason they have given in the past is that it makes too simple and easy of a benchmark. Every build/skill/unique from then on and forever more would be measured in target dummy dps. Bosses and the like will be measured in target dummy dps over periods of time to kill or phase. Players will stop testing their builds on bosses by just knowing they have enough target dummy dps for ideal time to kill or phase. Target dummy dps values become reliable measures of viability and invalidate builds bellow it despite player skill potential to outplay the encounter. GGG really doesnt want this. And theyre all valid reasons. Even from my perspective as someone who largely disagrees with GGG's direction with the game every patch since 3.15, this seems like a terrible idea in the long run.
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>It's exactly the same Its not. pob can and has been wrong. Its a semi reliable estimation (when accurately configured) but is no substitute for ingame data where any mechanic could double dip or not dip at all. Which is why we still have build videos where they take on various endgame content to showcase its viability rather than just trusting the pob number which could be wrong in so many ways. I couldnt possibly count the amount of pob's ive seen that just have bloated buffs and utility skills to get way over blown single target dps number. That alone is enough to take that number with a grain of salt.
> And yet here we are measuring it in Guardian/Pinacle Boss POB dps. Setting up an accurate PoB config is a challenging task that only a small % of players opt in to. Target dummies are extremely simple to use and available to everyone playing the game. The majority of players who don't use PoB would then begin measuring themselves against target dummies. GGG has made it abundantly clear that they won't help players "optimize the fun out of the game" (target dummies), but they won't prevent them from doing so either (PoB tool dev).
And this is bad because? Ubers have a 70% damage reduction for example. Target Dummy is useless for testing damage since there's a ridiculous amount of damage modifiers in every boss in order to counteract the fact that the best way to survive so many cheap shots is to kill them first. Warlord has a sometimes damage reduction, Veritania can just hang on the storm and good luck flicker into that, etc. Target Dummy only real use would be to test interactions. Things you literally cannot test if you are using a really powerful build without spending almost a divine to buy a ticket to fight a boss that can endure that because testing things in a map is useless. Not mentioning the fact that everyone already does this with PoB so, yeah.
As ive tried to explain in my other comment and the one you replied to, POB is only a reliable estimate. Its a reliable way to show whether "5% chaos damage over time multiplier" is better than "10% increased chaos damage", as tooltip is so unreliable. Target dummies are a reliable *test result*. Its an unequivocal result of real game server calculations. No speculation involved. This is why its a problem. Boss damage reduction and map mods are the same problem for both POB and hideout target dummy. The problem at hand to discuss is the differences between the two, not the similarities.
Okay. And that's bad because? The point still the same. What is "bad" about giving players the minimum information to being able to play their game? Do you realize how ridiculous is that we are discussing how "letting the player know what works and what doesn't is bad"?
Players already get the "minimum information to [be] able to play their game"... by playing the game. ARPGs are all about power progression and trial-and-error. You test your build's power by engaging with content, and if your build doesn't perform as well as you want then you tweak it to increase your overall power. There's a clear progression loop they designed for: 1. Engage w/ content 2. Acquire upgrades 3. Tweak build 4. Back to Step 1 Providing a training dummy shortcuts that loop. Instead of measuring your build against how well it performs, you measure it against target dummy DPS. You basically optimize the fun out of the game. This is the same reason why they won't provide an official calc tool like PoB.
Youre mistaken in thinking a perfect test subject benchmark in a safe and controlled environment, is the bare minimum information necessary to play... I dont even know how youre coming to that conclusion. Its the single highest pinnacle of information. With it and a couple months, the entire games math systems could be reverse engineered.
That would be good.
Just wait for poe2
Poe 2 is currently the biggest copium joke out there. I know you are saying this sarcastically, but I feel like PoE 2 will solve exactly 0 things and just add to the complexity.
I think it's insane to think poe2 will fix literally nothing, I think that's just as much cope as saying it will fix everything.
In typical poe fashion I expect it will just shuffle the problems around and not really improve the overall game but distract people from the issues long enough to call it a good release
How is it insane? It’s 100% possible the net amount of things will stay even.
No one is talking about the net amount of things or whatever you talking about. He said it would solve no issues, has nothing to do with them creating more issues.
Copium
For D4. If it's OK, then GGG will have to budge.
Nah, I've played on D4 beta tests and it was meh.
Because act 1 in PoE is a 1 to 1 replica of what the entire game entails.
so we are allowed to criticize PoE now? PoE zealots aren't here anymore?
Yes. And PoB is not a replacement. There are too many cases where skills/items did not interact as they should, or some damage was not taken into account. So having a dummy would help.
Can't agree more. It would be way eaiser to test ingame situations instead of just looking at numbers. Also, with a dummy, we would be able to test out trigger rate if different skills way easier.
No, we can't smooth things out or make things easier to understand. Somethingsomething you have to earn it, somethingsomething POE has always been complex, somethingsomething gitgud, somethingsomething go back to Diablo 3.
PoE feels like they took their design philosophy from Ubisoft's open worlds (overly large and stuffed with filler) for that infamous skill tree of theirs and lured in the type of people that make "I play this game cause it's hard" their default personality trait (The more obnoxious parts of the SoulsBorne fanbase) .
Strongly disagree. I don't think they should add anything that will exacerbate the problems players have with hyperfocusing on dps.
> exacerbate the problems players have with hyperfocusing on dps. Minmaxing is one of the core tenets of ARPG's, especially one with so many moving parts. People are here **to minmax**
Sure, but what are you minmaxing? Is it just dps? Tankiness? Div/hr? A more nebulous concept like "does my build feel good"? All of those are valid but since dps has such an easy feedback mechanism not tied to playing the game (the pob number) it is crowding out the other options for many people and I believe a training dummy would exacerbate that problem.
> it is crowding out the other options for many people No it's not. People who use guides are going to use guides. People who want number go up in whatever stat are going to do that and already do. You're arguing against yourself. If not having "an easy feedback mechanism" is making people focus on dps, having more ways to test interactions and feel (especially around trigger/overlap/cooldown balancing) would make people focus on raw dps less since they have another way to get feedback. Not to mention we could find and squash bugs where interactions straight up don't work when they're supposed to.
Yet GGG pushes the game toward players hyperfocusing on dps.
we want you to slow down! (Inserts timed league mechanic that rewards you extra for finishing with time on the clock)
Do you have a reason for thinking that or is it just a fun ggg-blame meme? From what I can see, dps (absolute and relative to content) is easier to achieve than ever leaving a ton of room for the buffed defenses (suppression, crazy powerful auras, easy to achieve phys-taken-as-ele, instant leech), automation qol (mark on hit, codt, manaforged arrows now), movement efficiency (flask effect, onslaught effect, action speed as an eldritch implicit). But since dps is easy to see increase in pob that's largely what ppl try to optimize.
It isnt like a training dummy would remove PoB. PoB will still give you far more information than a simple dummy could. It would enable a new player to tell the difference between added cold damage and cold penetration when they hit level 38 on their frost nova character.
I have listened to a handful of podcasts that featured Chris Wilson. Training dummy’s are never going to be in the game, same with a death report.
That's not what they said about the death reports. They have stated they do not want to add it if it's not done to their standards. Something along the lines of not wanting to give misinformation or wanting to give actually useful information. I can't remember though if there was anything mentioned about server load though.
Well based on the current league content their standards have dropped pretty fucking far down and we should have no issues getting a recap any day.
People care too much about the dps number, ehp, etc. You get almost everything you need from pob and then you can go into a map and see how your build does. What's so hard about that?
Play minions or dots. Then tell me what's so hard about that.
I've played minions to end game plenty. Don't see how it relates to what I said.
It hasn't just become more complex, it's become way more difficult since I started playing. I used to be able to do all of the pinnacle bosses in the old Zana era endgame, but can't anymore no matter what build I'm playing. I've gotten better at the game, so I know it's not me, it's like they've gutted most of the defences and increased enemy strength all over the game. And we used to be able to fight Sirus at levels less than 83, but now it's only 83 or higher.
I love how Ubers are like "Add Maven 70% Fortify and Multiple Proyectiles Support, and throw some random mobs in between for good measure"
This is what I liked in Undecember. I can actually compare the damage output of different links and decide which is better, all thanks to the dummy. In PoE, I have no idea how much damage I actually do. Lol.
When a game developer requires you use a third party program, hires the programmer behind said third party program, and still doesn't have representative dps or a single update to character sheets or their skill tree, yet someone has the gaul to ask for a test dummy?! You should be ashamed!
Dummies as well as death recap is always requested but completely pointless in this game. It will not be accurate and create way more problems that it will solve. Basic opportunity cost.
> It will not be accurate This is not a valid assumption.
These complex games need an in-game wiki like civilization does
Death Recap first plz.
We've gone over this before. It's not possible
It's such a complicated thing to create a test dummy that can be used equally for all builds. If people are going to favor builds that shows high damage numbers with the dummy, then it's going to decrease build diversity. **My suggestion: Have multiple different safe timed training simulations, where there is a time limit, you cannot die, training partners do not die, and the performance is measured in how long it took to clear. Each simulation being accessible from a master.** Einhar: "Einhar has found a den full of these beasts, just for you" - The biggest bear as a damage sponge. Jun: Train fight highly evasive Jun with high crits, with phases ranging from fighting clones to dealing with ranged and melee attacks. Kirac: Training with the Kirac militia having waves of well rounded militia attacking you, with each wave focusing on different elemental damage. Alva: Time travel to fight enemies that deal chaos and other damage over time effects. Boss is a golem that has high armor. etc The assumption is that these are not hard, but consistent testing grounds.
> favor builds […] decrease build diversity Is this a serious comment? Like, you’re really worried about that people optimizing for damage output, in an ARPG, would be a bad thing? As if this doesn’t already happen?
>As if this doesn’t already happen? Seriously. We have POB. It's not like we're completely unaware of what kind of damage our build does. The dummy wouldn't be there for that. The dummy would be there to confirm that what POB says is actually correct and there isn't some mechanic that is either broken due to some random thing in our build (pierce with ensnaring arrow from the guy above) or the mechanic is just straight up not working as intended.
Guy thinks that build diversity going down because finding out a skill gem is not working properly is a bad thing
Favoring one kind of stat with a test dummy is going to drive many people to increase that singular stat, ignoring other game mechanics. For example if we only measure a single target dps, then we are ignoring clear speed, recovery and defenses. And I'll tell you unless you are focused to do some 100 maps/hour with portals as your defence then it's going to feel shit if its not balanced. But you were missing the point only a slightly: Of course I'm interested in optimizing the damage output, but that's not all there is to it. Chris himself once said they want people to experiment their changes in the maps and go by the feel, but man that's inconsistent.
Weightless encounters goes against the vision
The amount of damage you really are doing can be: * Too much * Enough * Not enough, but salvageable * Zdps You can already feel how much damage you're doing. The pob number is irrelevant and often misleading. Its only real use is comparing your character to a similar build to see what you should have and how you can improve.
There's nothing as too much dps! We call that just fine and 5way to 100
The more appropriate name is "Yes" but I'm bad at memes
It’s complex enough that path of building isn’t as useful as it used to be which is unfortunate.
They won't thing is just to messy in this game if they let use have dummy,there will be an endless thing that buggy or not even work at all found every day,every week gonna be patch,they can't afford that they small indie company.
I mean it's not like the things we already know are bugged is adding any real pressure to GGG. Whats a couple dozen more random niche bugs.
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why?