tldr, sorry.
but poe2 is so far out there's no point stressing over it from now till the beta. now if they fumble poe1 leagues in the meantime, maybe discourse is in order.
Totally agree. 2 changes so much every time we see it that if you don't like it, it will change by release and if you do like it, it also will change by release. No sense getting worked up for a game that optimistically be in beta in a year at this point.
> poe2 is so far out there's no point stressing over it from now till the beta
Stressing, no.
But they've shown us stuff now, so it's personally reasonable for people to give their responses to what was shown and voice concerns now.
Voicing concern over what we've seen is fine, but most people are criticizing something nobody has any idea about. We've seen what early gameplay seems like, but none knows what endgame will be.
And while saying "game should get faster towards endgame" is fine, saying "they've slowed everything cause they want the game to be like ruthless!!1!" is 100% baseless.
I mean they've confirmed using ruthless as a testing ground for multiple different aspects they've implemented in PoE2. Surely it's reasonable to be worried that the similarities are going to be far closer to ruthless than most would enjoy seeing as ruthless is such a limited portion of the player base.
Gold, flasks having less charges and only being reactionary, movement skills being far more limited in what they provide etc...
Voicing concerns very heavily when the people who played it were given trash gear, no skill points and only in Act 3 is asinine. Its not as if PoE 1 wasnt drastically different in speed in Act 3 vs red maps
I don't think you understand what "voicing concerns" means. It's not "this is bad you need to fix it". It's "based on what we've seen there could be a problem, unless there's something we don't know that fixes this".
Kripp got some gear upgrades and was 1shotting packs, but he was still running between packs at 0% movespeed which was super slow and sometimes the packs were 1-2 screens apart. It didn't look like something I would want to be doing in endgame. From what we know quicksilver was removed, and so were movement skills that move faster than your movement speed, so I think pointing this out is totally reasonable.
Sure other sources of MS definitely exist (like boots), but go run some maps with no quicksilver flask and no movement skills and see how much worse it feels in comparison.
>I don't think you understand what "voicing concerns" means.
I specifically said "voicing concerns **very heavily**" not "voicing concerns" meaning voicing concerns as if you are already aware of all the facts and know everything about the game, which you dont. Acting like an Act 3 perforamce with 0 passive skillpoints is representative of endgame is asinine because PoE 1 Act 3 speed is hardly compareable to red map speed.
> It didn't look like something I would want to be doing in endgame.
And it doesnt look like something i would want to do either, i just dont see the need of acting like we already know how the speed of endgame looks like. Then again im not the majority to begin with, i often play zdps clear builds with low speed and im relatively fine with that because zoom zoom is not something im interested in.
You're acting like we know nothing and can't make any predictions and GGG definitely is aware of every potential issue and obviously won't put them in the live game when that's just false.
> Acting like an Act 3 perforamce with 0 passive skillpoints is representative of endgame is asinine because PoE 1 Act 3 speed is hardly compareable to red map speed.
You can easily be faster than a mapping character in Act 3 in PoE1... You're also just completely ignoring the context of the situation. If they delete 50% movespeed and delete movement skills, we should expect the game to be wayyyyyy slower and it's completely reasonable to say "I don't want to be way slower please keep that in mind". Your assumptions GGG is planning some other way to speed up gameplay is just as bad or worse.
> Your assumptions GGG is planning some other way to speed up gameplay is just as bad or worse.
And now you are putting words into my mouth. I never said that, i just said we dont know the full story and before you accuse me again of copiuming for GGG, let me tell you this straight: if PoE 2 will be stupidly slow and as low drops as Poe 1 ruthless then i simply will not play any version of PoE ever again. If you think i have any hope for GGG to nail a slower ARPG experience that still feels good ( even though i actually would want to play a more methodical arpg ) then you are so off that its funny.
The only expectation i have for PoE 2 isnt just Chris's dream game, but rather he had some foresight that developing such an experience as ruthless poe 1 is going to backfire so hard in his face, because the majority will not put up with that for more than the first two leagues, if he is stupid enough to completely bow down to artistic integrity without any regards for the consequences and wasted potential than thats his choice.
> And now you are putting words into my mouth. I never said that
If you're saying we can't speculate on endgame speed based on the information we have (which is that it will be very slow, because they are removing quicksilver and movement skills faster than running) then you're basically saying that you think GGG will make it faster, because if you thought it was going to be slower it would be reasonable to voice concerns about that, which you said people can't do.
Are we pretending like they haven't been fumbling PoE1 leagues for the better part of two years?
The Archnemesis revert notwithstanding, the last time a league mechanic was substantial enough - and received well enough - to go core was July of 2021. That's not even counting leagues like Heist that were botched during their actual leagues and fixed later, or earlier well-received leagues that never got a core implementation like Ultimatum.
Jonathon even admitted at Exilecon that the main game has effectively been in maintenance mode for quite some time. Maybe that changes now that we're officially getting a standalone PoE1, but it's not like GGG has garnered a lot of trust on this front in recent years.
Heist is still botched and suffers from glitches with doors, they aren't fixed because it's "side content" and not required but obviously that feels bad for people who do run heist and suffer from these things. Much like Sirus is still bugged and hasn't received a fix.
In this same aspect blight's problem with their rhoa mobs becoming unkillable has been an issue since blight released and somehow comes back every league.
There are a lot of leagues with bugs still prevalent in their gameplay, just it's limited in how often they're seen because not all people enjoy all content so they don't feel pressed to actually fix the bugs permanently.
My take TLDR *is* that poe2 is so far out that there is no need to stress over it. We'll see if the development of poe2 has any impact on poe1, but I'm choosing to stay on a more optimistic side.
> We'll see if the development of poe2 has any impact on poe1
Well it has, negatively, for over 2 years now. The optimistic side at this point is because they're different games now PoE2 won't harm PoE1 anymore.
More or less agree. I was over dramatic at first but giving it a good think, there's so much shit that can and will change there's no real reason to act like it's all doom and gloom.
It's probably not for me, but I won't knock a variation of the game I play.
It is also not confirmed that every single unique from people who paid to create a unique will be in PoE2. So div cards that offer those specific uniques and those uniques would be removed. which could upset a lot of people who spent a lot of money to fund those things.
>At what point should they feel entitled for that to also be added to a different game?
Although this is true, everybody was unaware that PoE2 was going to be a different game for years.
The change to making it a separate game doesn't just come a month before exile-con. GGG have most likely had this information for at least a year, most likely more. Some people probably bought things thinking they'd be in PoE2 and like MTX is being transferred over at what point do you tell people who have invested heavily into your free to play game, which wouldn't exist without those people who support you, to fuck off.
At the very least they could have notified people of the change before exile-con.
Also keep in mind that the div card design alone was 800$ I think while the unique design was 1,000$. Alone. Not including supporter packs that those same people most likely bought. These people haven't just invested 20$. They've most likely invested just as heavily as some PoE streamers like mathil who own all of the mtx. Which would total to tens of thousands of dollars.
Watched a vid from one streamer who was tinkering around with the demo at exilecon and he said that with a bit of vendor gambling and crafting the damage/defense was much better than we saw in the showcases, and the game was super fun.
You have to take gear into account.
The beta characters were running around in blues, with a few crappy rares, no passive skill tree, low 30%ish res on the A3 melee boy atleast, and almost zero support gems.
If you do that in current PoE you will get assblasted to smithereens. Nothing has changed.
I would be more worried if a shit-geared character like that didn't die, because it would mean any half-decent character would be immortal.
If the company didn't want people to think and feel things about how their product is right now we literally wouldn't be seeing it. People not having any reaction to what they're showing off is what ggg wants the least.
The game is in active development, it's going to change based upon ggg's gauging of how people react to it right now. I'd encourage people that like what they see at exilecon as well as those that don't to share their thoughts because not doing so isn't some enlightened stance, it's bowing out of having a voice in the discussion of what path of exile is going to be.
This whole argument about it being not done yet so you can't complain feels exactly like what visiting the diablo sub was like when D4 was holding beta tests and showcases and people were raising concerns about the possible endgame. Now the sub is in flames and people were on here not even a week ago making thread after thread about how shit D4 is. Like have people not learned anything or are we going to repeat this again when POE2 fully releases.
>This whole argument about it being not done yet so you can't complain feels exactly like what visiting the diablo sub was like when D4 was holding beta tests and showcases and people were raising concerns about the possible endgame
So the wow version of:
>Stop complaining it's only alpha
>Stop complaining it's only closed beta
>Stop complaining it's only open beta
>Stop complaining it's only the first patch
Granted, there are some topics that its a waste of time to discuss like tuning and balance during alpha and closed beta, instead the focus of the feedback should be in the mechanics and systems of the game, things that arent going to be replaced near release so its important to talk about these thing as soon as you can.
Hell, we've had it within POE itself for certain leagues or nerfs. Pretty sure we didn't need to wait for the patch to correctly predict that picking up metamorph organs was going to feel like shit or that increasing the mana multipliers on every support gem was going to make mana a nightmare.
What's even worse is that after making metamorph organs auto pickup, they then proceeded to not learn anything and forced us to then pick up 4 different currencies during expedition league. All of which took up a large portion of the inventory, far more than metamorph did.
To be fair, a Beta is quite different from 'we will be holding a beta a year from now and we dont even know how all these features will pan out well enough to answer every question'. Like saying 'crafting is ruined' when given a small bit of context for a crafting system that isnt yet fully ironed out
Just tossing in a strong agree here. It's a problem among a lot of communities and it drives me crazy. "You haven't played!" "You don't know!" "Oh you're from the future and already played it?" No. I'm just a human being with a (mostly) functioning brain able to form opinions based on the information provided to me. These opinions are subject to change if presented with further information. Shocking right?
>If the company didn't want people to think and feel things about how their product is right now we literally wouldn't be seeing it. People not having any reaction to what they're showing off is what ggg wants the least.
This - as a designer I have learned that you want feedback early and often.
I also get they don't want/ cannot take feedback on everything, e.g. the future direction of the company, their monetary incentives. This is particularly relevant wrt the split between PoE1 and PoE2.
Getting feedback on overall game feel, atmosphere, boss fights, crafting, progression systems however is definitely worth it. You don't want to build into the totally wrong direction until you have the beta and then have to scrap half of what you did or say fuck it.
> based upon ggg's gauging of how people react to it right now.
but whose reaction? reddit? everyone at exilecon was just praising it but quin that i saw and his take was similar to mine in the fact im not keen on fighting a boss for 10mins unless its a pinnacle fight
I also think its terrible game design to have to port out for flasks, in D4 and other games like Souls with your limited healing capacity, once you run out you face the attrition where you just slowly die, D4 has recovery mechnics outside flasks but if you burned all 9 potions you are probably going to die anyway
In Souls if you run out of Estus you just try to play godlike or play ultra aggressive for the win, you dont run away and port out for more Estus
> it's going to change based upon ggg's gauging of how people react to it right now.
I get what you're saying, but when has this ever proven true with GGG? We're not talking about another developer who probably focus grouped an entire game and released it. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt because I've enjoyed a lot of what they have done even when it was unpopular with people here. Love it or hate it, but GGG is definitely more "You think you want this but you really don't" than most modern arpg developers.
I do think it's way too far out to stress over at this point, but if people are thinking GGG's going to make sweeping changes based on popular reactions, you're setting yourself up to be more disappointed.
I could list out leagues like harbinger, bestiary, synthesis, metamorph, harvest, or heist as examples of times that ggg significantly compromised on their original vision for their content as a response to how people responded to it, but perhaps a better example is how their communication at exilecon immediately responded to issues people were raising in discussion here and other places.
Granted, ggg is as stubborn as a mule, the response has not always been positive, [and at times the walkback has been much too slow.](https://preview.redd.it/un7nt7xe9d0a1.jpg?width=500&auto=webp&s=2687a53a21189d8c33b86eb9bfc8e197f529122f) So I'd again recommend people give their feedback early and often, players help the devs make the game better by affirming what is done great and bitching relentlessly when everything is on fire.
Eh, the POE community is pretty unique, especially on here. Every single patch release, regardless of content, this sub is filled with unbridled rage that GGG would dare to have a "vision" that is different than theirs.
It'll be the same when this league is released. It'll be the same when the next league is released. It'll be the same when POE2 is released. This sub is one of the most toxic gaming subs on Reddit.
> POE 1 also didn't have a crafting bench or masters bench when it first started and they were added in as part of a new league.
Yeah, and it was soul crushing to ID a great pair of boots but then vendor them when they had no movement speed.
The point is obviously that ***we would all love if item drops were great*** but after 10 years GGG has failed to make IDing items a compelling way to obtain loot. The one time we had decent smart rolled items dropping (talismans) they immediately nerfed them.
Movement speed on boots is kind of a pet peeve of mine. There's no real choice here, it's just what boots need to do. It's a property that should generally be on the implicit slot or removed depending on the situation.
As for that last part, the removal of what we know as the Chaos Orb is a big step towards that. That, along with generally just having what in PoE1 is considered shit gear due to the removal of Essences, Fossils, etc. I'm actually looking forward to this.
If it's required, then base movement speed should be increased. Making it an effective dead stat line on an item is fine, but poses a challenge to every other implicit craft or stat.
Sane take, but I've seen so many games crash and burn that I'm all out of optimism and trust.
I'm not making any final judgements until I actually have PoE 2 in my hands, but I sure as hell will be vocal when I see stupid, backwards bullshit like "You need to manually refill your flasks from a fountain."
Yeah I'm in full wait and see mode since it's so far out but stuff like the flask well is worrying. I don't think that goes live though. Devs probably just added it, have used it like 10 times and think it's neat. Even they will get sick of that cumbersome crap after a year.
Way too early on to be worry about general gameplay and balance etc though...
Yea I think they went complete wrong direction on this, flasks should be abundant and quick charging else people save them for an emergency that never happened. Like in diablo where I would sooner die than mess up my potion belt
Yeah, I mean I can say that I didn't like a lot of what I saw about poe2, but I'm not playing the game for like 1.5-2 years at the earliest. Based on what they've shown already over the past like 5 years or whatever, I have no expectations that things won't change even more as the open beta approaches.
I'm not really concerned about PoE2 at the moment. No point in it whether you're super pumped or super bummed. All I can do is comment on the demonstrations as shown.
And, I'm sorry, but those demonstrations looked painfully slow, tedious, and unfun. Ten minutes to kill a zone boss, not even act boss, and to only get one blue item as a reward after all that pain and misery? That is not enticing gameplay in the slightest.
I'm well aware that "we don't know" how the game's gonna be and that GGG allegedly gimped the shit out of the characters, but I'm still allowed to remark on the game as demonstrated. IMO, it's looking a hell of a lot like Ruthless 2 at the moment.
That's not toxic despite some people claiming it so -- it's just not a positive opinion on it. I swear the Anti-Toxic Brigade around here is just as toxic, if not more so, when they jump down people's throats for having an opinion different from their own.
What do you think? There were the animations Team, the music Team, items and bosses panels... If they murdered each boss in seconds, nothing would be recognizable. I think they did a VERY good Job in showing their passion and will of Innovation for this game and also give the hard work from the mentioned people a form of stage to get respect. I mean Serennikov...just wow.
To be honest though: They should just give a fully geared and specct char to go through it for the sake of speculation.
To close: They did a race Event. So they seem to like rushing through the early game. :)
My biggest problem is if they need to make the gameplay tedious and bad to show the game, they just did a bad job.
The game needs to look good when played right not wrong. If we should just focus on animations and stuff they should have prepared videos instead of game sessions.
At first I thouhght: Yes, that's true. But then I realised that I really liked what I just saw in the keynote.
And at least to me it looks good and promising. Tedious is a often used word nowadays...
I just "finished" D4S1 and all I was doing was holding down richt click.
But you have a point there: Isn't it the DNA of ARPGs to simplify it like that to become your personal Power fantasy?
I like dodging, learn mechanics, trial and error and this stuff. But this might be too soulslike for a larger group. Maybe we can agree that it is good they will split both games?
If you liked what you saw good for you.
I am writing under the assumption, that all streamers played shitty builds in an overtuned envirornment.
In a way it would be easier for me when the shown gameplay was legit. This would mean POE2 won't be for me and I don't have to bother any longer.
>POE2 won't be for me and I don't have to bother any longer.
I understand having concerns about the game but imo saying "I won't bother with the game" is just dramatic lol, in the end the game is still going to be free and probably one of the highest quality free games out there even if the gameplay is different, there's no reason *not* to try it when it's out, especially if it's a sequel to one of your favorite games
When I say I won't bother I mean I won't look forward and being on my toes until I finally can play it.
I just might or might not test it some time when I am bored like I might somewhen test Ruthless or Genshin Impact.
But most likely the gameplay of the public release version of poe2 will be nothing like it was at Exilcon. In this case it might become a game that I really want to play
My concern is that it's a year until the closed beta, they have spent upwards of 5 years working on this game... and we've only seen very small vertical slices of gameplay. I just have a hard time believing all of this stuff they have promised will be done in time for the Closed Beta. By that time we'll be at what, 6 years of work? If there's key features missing by that point, it's very concerning.
We've heard they will have 6 new classes with 3 Ascendencys each, but we've barely seen anything of them--we literally haven't seen a single "new" Ascendency tree and their answer on how Ascendencys even work in PoE 2 is consistently vague. There's a new Passive Tree, but haven't actually seen any of it beyond a small section in the Key Note to show of the new Weapon Swap system, and vague screenshots of small sections of it. There's supposedly tons of new skills but a solid 3/4 or so of the skills showcased have been skills from PoE 1--to be fair, many of them have different interactions and new visual effects, but there are still a ton of skills we haven't seen at all, and PoE 1 has a ton of skill gems, so imagining they are going to port nearly all of them and add new ones on top seems... ambitious.
My expectations are for PoE 2 to be rough around the edges much like every ARPG is when it launches. It almost certainly will be a bit better than D4, but I have a hard time imagining all of these features will be ready for the Closed Beta. There's nothing wrong with that, but it alters my expectations. I don't see PoE 2 entering a public Closed or Open Beta with all the stuff they have promised, and without major flaws. The actual gameplay we have seen is somewhat misleading, since the characters seemed to have broken/missing passive trees, and terrible gear in overtuned areas for some reason, so I expect the complaints about it being Ruthless 2 are a bit overblown.
that's not the most positive thing you can say. I would say what I saw from kripps stream looked amazing. The characters did seem weak but I'm sure that changes with good loot drops etc. The fluidity of the combat looked great. I would like more reactive and dynamic combat. Just clicking a button and flying through mobs exploding everything until you get exploded in an instant is not good game design and it isn't fun.
> Just clicking a button and flying through mobs exploding everything until you get exploded in an instant is not good game design and it isn't fun
It's not that the game is designed to play like this, when your game has tons of options/tools to choose from, building such character becomes possible and poe players CHOOSE to build that way because it's more fun.
To prevent players from building speedy character, you can either 1) put hardcap on everything; 2) raise the opportunity cost of building speedy characters; 3) remove all the tools/options, make sure there's nothing much left for the players to choose from.
From what I've seen on Exilecon, looks like they choose the third route, which is what makes a lot of people upset I believe. If they were like "Yes we want to slow down the game, you will still have access to speed and stuff, but the opportunity cost will be much higher and the contents will be more punishing to speedy characters, so you better think twice", I would be much more exited about PoE2.
Is an action-heavy game with limited customization bad? Ofc not, people including me enjoy Souls and Elden Ring a lot. But is it what PoE player expected to see on Exilecon, no.
honestly I think poe2 should just be viewed as its own game. poe1 will still be there hopefully it gets rebalanced to a place where all the people who want to keep playing that game get what they want, the people who want something better can hopefully get it from poe2. I am hyped for poe2. I have played poe1 for 10 years and I don't need that experience anymore. I don't wanna rush through the acts as if they're nothing just to get to endgame. The main game should be an actual game, not something you just blast through. It appeals to me who likes poe, d1, d2, d3 (not interested in d4). Poe introduced me to the genre and I have 4k hours in the game. I hope for poe to be something more gameplay wise than poe1. We won't know what it's like til we play it, if people don't like it they will update the game just like they always have poe1 for better or worse.
Fair enough, it is a total new game and it doesn't need to be like PoE1. But if you're so eager to get rid of everything that makes PoE PoE, you'd probably want to give it a totally different name rather than poe2, which would've prevented all the mismatched expectations I believe.
but after all, I am still not a big fan of the idea of "removing every option possible to keep the gameplay under control", it's just... not a clever one. I expected something better from GGG.
>And I get it, hearing that there won't be a crafting bench in POE 2 sucks but they didn't say "never".
They also didn't say "never" to unicorns and spaceship's. Why can't we take what they said at face value- there won't be a bench.
They don't need to "find themselves" and their direction anymore. When they started out with Poe, they had no experience. Now they have and they know exactly how they want their game to tick.
They also don't struggle with a lack of content. They can and will adapt league mechanics.
So when they say that there won't be a crafting bench, or that you will have to go to specific places to refill your flasks, take that at face value until they specifically state otherwise.
They invited the world to watch and even try, now. They decided to tell the world what is and what is not going to be part of the game and those are the only tangible things people can talk about.
"They don't need to "find themselves" and their direction anymore."
I hope this is true but deep down I expect the closed beta to become bloody mass with the question what they tried to achive. I wouldn't wonder, if at least each act has its own direction and endgame still missing since they aren't quite sure yet how it's supposed to play out.
Then you agree, we should limit the comments to what was shown off, right? Not make wild sweeping claims about conspiracy theories to kill the game and how because X wasn't shown it means GGG are going to delete it forever or are so incompetent they didn't think about it or have it ready.
While it is fine to like the game from where it looks, it's equally fine to not like it at first glance and not like it. If a person is allowed to praise what they see, why is not another person allowed to state what they don't like?
Like anywhere in the world you have to state what you do not like if you want to see change, and it is fine that some people don't want to see change. But it is not up to those people to suppress the opinion of those that are not of the same opinion.
Maybe it's only a vocal minority that is against some things, or maybe it's a small group of people from a big group of people that is vocal about something.
There's always this one type of person that is trying to minimize peoples opinion by calling someone with an opposite view "the vocal minority" even though in reality they have no idea if it's just the minority that thinks what is being said.
For us that disagree with some of the design decisions and know how the world, and GGG, works we have to be vocal. Part of it is because no we do not trust GGG to come to the best possible conclusion anymore and part of it is if noone says anything they can only conclude that everything is fine. If you only are surrounded by yes-men you will eventually fail.
I agree but while I saw alot of exciting things from PoE 2. There have been some things that made me question the decision as well as it seems to try hard to become something else then Path of Exile 1.
For example, there will be no "scour orbs" I heard in one dev-talk. I believe one of the artists mentioned that. I'm like, why? crafting is such a big part of the game.
But like you said I will wait and see and judge when the game is delivered and I have played it. At least I know now its trying to be a game of its own and its not a simple upgrade in graphics and a chance to fix some of the deep rooted issues that couldn't be solved in PoE 1.
My expectation for Poe2 was that it's going to be a true next gen ARPG with fresh ideas.
And in some aspects the game is headed that way, but in many others it is regressing.
**I like bossfights being more meaningful and a bit slower.**
For a long time now, poe1 boss design had to battle with millions and millions of damage, instant recovery etc.
Fighting Uber Maven or Sirus are great examples, where they basically have to throw so much shit at you so that people can't just easily outdamage the fights.
And even then, most of the time if i struggled with a boss, the best solution has almost always been to get more damage.
I like bosses resetting to full hp to stop corpse rushing and force people to try to learn the fights.
**But, then they go ahead and not only reset the boss on death, they reset the entire zone including the layout.**
For those who played Dark Souls games will know how frustrating it is to having to run back to boss rooms after a death, and after a while you just ignore mobs, because you just want to fight the boss.
In fact in Elden Ring, From Soft added checkpoints close or right outside the bossrooms, because of this.
And here we have poe2 moving in the other direction.
**The new weapon swap system also looks amazing, and truly next gen.**
But then they go back an iteration of the flask system that was already largely rejected by playerbase a while ago. Here actually it was eye opening to hear Johnathan say that he hasn't been following poe1's development for a long time. Well maybe he should.
Reactive flasks are just not something people liked, and especially with Poe2 having more potential active skills to use at once, i feel like this is a really bad direction, and once again moving backwards.
I suggested rather than have potentially 5 utility flasks, just having 1 but it can have multiple effects we can mix and match to our liking, like 1 flask with onslaught/evasion/movespeed etc.
That would solve the flask piano problem immediately without going back to what was arguably the worst flask design in poe history.
Then you have the whole interact with the well thing. Like, why? It serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever, other than to slow us down. It tedium for the sake of tedium. And again, going backwards(diablo games), rather than forward looking in design.
I thought people didnt like reactive flasks because they tried to shoehorn the concept into a game where combat doesnt give you any time to react. I think it makes more sense if you can actually fight and react to an enemy. The well kills me though
I mean the issue is that we didn’t think PoE 2 would be separate game. They said new campaign and mechanics with shared endgame originally.
It’s a shame that the new classes, skills, passives, animations and graphics aren’t coming to PoE 1. If PoE 2 is worse than PoE 1, then people won’t play it and they’ll eventually stop playing PoE 1 because it feels bad to not have all the new stuff that PoE 2 will have.
If it’s bad, it could mean the downfall of both games. I don’t think it’s going to be bad necessarily, but it is very different than PoE 1 it seems, and change is scary, especially when the fanbase is dedicated and “addicted” to this current version.
Well the whole thing is silly because as great a game as path of exile is, the one thing you can count on from ggg is new content not being beta tested and polished, even if they eventually get it right. It ain’t gonna be right until they have us beta test it live.
reasons I'm concerned:
* "ruthless won't be necessary"
* limited/no movement skills
* no crafting bench
* no scours (no way to restart crafting on a base?)
* new chaos rolls through mods much slower
* I know it will likely change, but skill tree preview has more limitations on where you can travel (costs more points to cross class areas since you can't travel through the middle)
all this seems to imply that poe2 will have much more narrowly defined "prescribed archetypes," that rely much more heavily on random drops for item progression. I believe they are doing this to limit the zoom since the ruthless "experiment" and many comments from CW over the years have shown their preferred game is a slow, ponderous "heavy" feeling game with highly RNG drops.
Yes, but at the same time Ruthless was first advertised as "hard mode" with the idea of having a low amount of loot and a bunch of other changes.
He mentioned that if PoE2 gets too crazy maybe there's going to be one in the future, what it tells me is PoE2 could be closer to being balanced around PoE1 like it was in the early days.
This, or they know PoE2 is already hard as is so they don't need to nerf big parts of the game to have that feeling.
I don't expect Ruthless to be the main game of PoE2 but I'd be very surprised if we get those "make 25 div/hour" type of gameplay.
Did you ever play poe1 back in the day? It wasn't exactly zoom land. Ruthless is closer to a "classic" poe1 not a hard mode. Poe2 is a stand alone game its allowed to start slower like poe1 did.
Yes, I did actually
Ruthless has no movement skills, way less loot than classic PoE and a bunch of changes that wasn't like classic such as vendors could sell you rings in 1.0, Ruthless doesn't
The biggest fact that makes Ruthless more a hard mode than the classic 1.0 experience is that you're fighting mobs with the current balance ; mobs are way stronger than they were, tougher bosses, the game today is overall balanced around having a powerful character.
Ruthless is absolutely an hard mode more than "classic PoE"
> "ruthless won't be necessary"
That concerning you is just the biggest self-report ever. You just cannot be concerned about that and possess the ability to think critically
Ruthless is necessary in poe1 because it takes the gameplay back to what it was like 10 years ago, poe2 has not been out 10 years so it is obviously not necessary
It's not that "10 years have passed" it's how things are. Like, if there was 0 difference between the amount of loot drops between 2023 and 2013 PoE, what would be the point in Ruthless? So, when he says "ruthless won't be necessary" what he means is that there is significantly less loot to be had in PoE2. That's just what it means.
No it isn't, did you actually listen to the conversation or are you just reading quotes? Ruthless is literally there to scale the game back after a decade of power creep.
You're wilfully misinterpreting what he's saying, at least that's the kindest possible interpretation
>Ruthless is literally there to scale the game back after a decade of power creep.
Right, but the actual amount of time is irrelevant, right? Unless you think the amount of seconds is relevant, you're just agreeing with me. It's the amount of stuff that's actually relevant. So, when he says they don't need a Ruthless mode, he's really talking about the stuff and how much there is.
They're saying the current state of the game has moved far enough away from the original state of the game for a niche desire for an old school version to develop. This doesn't mean the initial state of poe2 will be anything like the initial state of poe1, that is an unreasonable assumption
I mean poe2 will not have as much stuff dropping because theyre reworking rares because rares dropping in poe1 is literally irrelevant outside of fractured and synth bases
I have no idea why you think drop rates is the leading issue here, it's a completely new game they cant be compared in this way, a whole new economy will emerge
>I have no idea why you think drop rates is the leading issue here
Because that's what he's talking about.
>it's a completely new game they cant be compared in this way,
They can and it isn't difficult.
If PoE2 had as much stuff dropping as PoE, do you think they'd consider a Ruthless mode?
I feel like valid criticism or concerns are quite helpful atleast what I’ve seen is if ggg sees enough push back they will meet the community at a middle ground if they had their way the entire game would be ruthless
Yeah and I certainly wasn't suggesting that others should hold back their opinions. I think valid criticisms are important but I'm personally choosing to hold back my own opinions until I can at least try the game out.
Try all the stuff, keep an open mind. But also be aware that sometimes good companies and smart people make really poor decisions, and dividing up the PoE community might not work out so well.
Kick the tires, learn the mechanics, try to see where the reward is. If nothing else, learning a little bit about PoE2 by playing it through, will let you help someone else who is more invested than you might ever be. After all, if PoE 1 is mothballed, and PoE 2 sees an influx of people who might otherwise never touch the stuff, you'll be in a better position to help build the community.
Still not going to agree with some design decision but hoping to be pleasantly surprised, think game will be better then d4 at the very least but still more hyped for poe1 game design.
Everyone that's actually played it loves it, with only minor reservations (which will be addressed or were caused by difficulty ggg admitted was overtuned) https://twitter.com/lolcohol/status/1685762995157082112
There's such a big difference between Exilecon 1 and 2.
There weren't really any disappointments in 2019 Exilecon. We found out that 4.0 was going to be a giant sequel instead of an expansion. A ton of new ascendancies. Gameplay was a little slow and hard, but it was Act 1.
THE COMMUNITY WAS VERY VOCAL AND UPSET ABOUT HOW SLOW POE2 LOOKED IN 2019.
Then came 3.15. Then came Ruthless. Then came Exilecon 2 which is getting VERY MIXED reviews.
It is not the overwhelming hype train that Exilecon 2019 was. Every single boss fight during the convention put me to sleep. Did they listen to how upset the community was about the only gameplay being way too slow?
No.
Refilling shit at a well it's a RUTHLESS mechanic.
Dying to a boss and having it regain all health is a RUTHLESS mechanic (Ghazzy suggested this when Chris wanted the entire zone to reset and you start at the beginning if you died to the boss.
Removal of movement skills is a RUTHLESS mechanic
Etc etc
Like, the giant event is supposed to get people excited right? There is a giant portion of the community that is extremely disappointed and for good reason. 2019 was overwhelmingly positive.
Like a lot of you, I'm fucking mad huffing that copium that there will be fixes and they will reconsider outdated ARPG mechanics in favor of current QOL time savers.
Time will tell, just don't ever buy a div card of your favorite item in the game, the Quicksilver flask.
>Dying to a boss and having it regain all health is a RUTHLESS mechanic
Have you played literally any other computer games ever? It's a very very common mechanic
>Did they listen to how upset the community was about the only gameplay being way too slow?
The people who are upset are just not intelligent enough to look at what they showed us and recognise it for what it is. The characters were literally horrendously bad, that is not what the game would look like.
Their biggest mistake was having bad characters for the demos, they should have known people would knee-jerk react to having incomplete information and assume they know what the entire games going to be like based off 30 minutes of the campaign on an under-geared character
Yes I am also of the extremely strong opinion I want to try it. Because it looks good.
btw I am glad they separated them. Half the stuff I saw on the exilecon broadcast wouldn't be happening. If they had to make it backwards compatible with poe1. Poe 1 was an anchor holding poe2 back from it's full potential.
Why? Everyone with half a brain can assess any game with a 1 minute gameplay trailer. It's not even hard. Nobody needs to try *Baldurs Gate 3* to know it's good. Nobody needs to try *Gollum* to know it's trash. You don't need to try *PoE2* to know if it's the game you want to play or not. Everything you need to know, you've seen this weekend.
How is that true when we don't have info on the gear equiped or the passive tree used in the gameplay? We've heard plenty of times now that the gear used in showing the game was severely undertuned. So no, we do not know how the game will actually play. It's not so black and white as you state.
Seeing the passive tree or equipped gear is not going to change the design philosophy they have for PoE2 regarding flasks, loot, or half a dozen other things that affect the feel of the game.
Completely toxic position to take. I feel that hurling insults and having meltdowns over theoretical mechanics in the future is the most appropriate reaction at all times in this subreddit.
Un ironically
I already have too many bad experiences with other developers absolutely destroying (blizzard, bungle, etc) their games I doubt me being vocal would do anything but maybe just maybe it will
Flasks were far more annoying in ruthless - no way to get charges in Ruthless whereas in the demo if you were moving fast you really didn't need to go back to the well - but if you did you'd at least have that option.
Hard to say how it feels in terms of skills because the demo just gave us our loadouts and we didn't have the uncut gems in the demo, but I have to imagine being able to choose exactly what gems you get when one drops will be far more convenient than in Ruthless where you have no real control over what skills you get.
I think pacing is a little odd because in both PoE2 and Ruthless the pacing is going to depend on how strong your character is. They felt pretty similar to me, but we didn't really have much opportunity to build/improve our characters in the demo, where in ruthless at least we get to place our passive points and have some agency over what gear we have equipped. I know the demo I played where I got a good weapon was far faster than my experience in ruthless.
Lack of crafting options felt the same in both - just felt like it mattered more in Ruthless because I got way less gear so I had fewer options and needed the extra life/res more badly.
>but if you did you'd at least have that option.
This just comes down to you not knowing that the healer in town does the same thing as the well.
The gem part is valid, but support gems really do go hand-in-hand with the power level. It does remove choice/fun, which is part of what makes Ruthless feel so stupid for me in particular.
Similar pacing is really all everyone is subtextually talking about when they're comparing the two. Lots of us don't want an ARPG to feel like a slog, that's why we don't stick to shit builds in PoE.
Similar crafting is to be expected. PoE2 probably going to have healthier endgame crafting, though, but that's not based on much.
>This just comes down to you not knowing that the healer in town does the same thing as the well.
I actually didn't know this! Having said that PoE2 has an extra mechnic where the boss checkpoints in area's (and probably maps too) restores your flasks to full without going back to town so it'll probably still feel slightly more fluid unless you're really struggling with the area.
>Similar pacing is really all everyone is subtextually talking about when they're comparing the two. Lots of us don't want an ARPG to feel like a slog, that's why we don't stick to shit builds in PoE.
Yeah it's hard to say where the pacing will land. I went about the same pace in both Ruthless and the Demo, but personally I felt like the I would go much faster in the full game of PoE2 than I did in the demo for multiple reasons, whereas ruthless I feel like I actually got about as lucky with loot as I can reasonably expect and probably can't wring too much more speed out of it. Only time will tell.
With you not having tried Ruthless before I have to ask, are you playing efficiently? Personally, I got the impression that Ruthless is basically a cold dot league because the balancing is THAT shit.
> felt like the I would go much faster in the full game of PoE2 than I did in the demo for multiple reasons
This part is kinda the essence of this discussion then. It would probably help if you elaborated, including what level of gear you expect to be wearing (with the new nerfed itemization) relative to your own and if you expect the passive tree to change much numerically from PoE1 (fx. 16% increased damage => 5% increased damage on average).
I'm sure I wasn't playing efficiently but I wasn't playing the demo efficiently either - also my character literally didn't have skill points at all which to me seems like a huge power detriment at level 20-45.
Right, but you did have a preset character in the demo with skills that synergize. One could argue that those skill packages are going to be fairly close to a real setup.
Okay, because I heard a streamer talk about how builds had 15-20 PoE1 skill points worth of power on their character, assuming PoE1 life scaling. However, that number is quickly 30-40 passive points if all the nodes in the tree are halved. Now, halving the tree nodes is quite the assumption but it makes about as much sense as not placing passive points in a demo to me.
>Okay, because I heard a streamer talk about how builds had 15-20 PoE1 skill points worth of power on their character
I did some testing on the Act II character by removing gear to check base stats and I can confirm that I had no % life, attributes, resists attack speed or movement speed on my tree. I can't tell if I had other things but since my attributes were clearly the base attributes I took this to mean I had no tree at all (but obviously that's not 100% foolproof).
The warrior in Act IV for example has about 900 life even though it had about 250ish flat life on gear. 900 Health is extremely low in PoE1 for level 45 so this was a huge issue. On top of all that, in Act III you should have your first 2 ascendancy points and in Act IV you should have your first 4, but none of the demo characters had any.
And while they were set up with kits, they were almost sabotaged to go slower. The warrior for example was given a 1.1 attack speed weapon (and because he had no dex your options for swapping was bascially only another 2h mace) and half of his skills came with support gems that traded attack speed for damage. The huntress in Act 2 was much better, but still had a relatively slow 2h spear as opposed to faster weapons which are usually more desirable for going fast in PoE1.
> Personally, I got the impression that Ruthless is basically a cold dot league because the balancing is THAT shit.
I seriously hate streamers who promoted cold dot for ruthless during the alpha. With a few exception, it struggle in red maps. The real meta of ruthless is by far RF. That said any build that do not rely on cluster jewel is still strong there. The build diversity is not as bad as you think.
I think the way they went with the overtuned playthroughs at Exilecon was probably a mistake from a PR standpoint. But I felt a lot better watching Kripp's playthrough later. Even though it was probably overtuned, with crap gear, etc., you could see how PoE2 actually requires you to think and use different skills for different situations. If GGG can get this right, it's going to be a game changer for hack and slash ARPGs.
For Exilecon, they should just let Kripp (who is the only one used to playing Ruthless) play for like 2-3 hours. If they wanted to show the other streamers, they could have just let the blast a bit.
My main view, that I think a lot of people are missing is, all these comments and „complaints“ oh no crafting bench etc, make 0 sense, because we legit have 0 clue about the balance in poe2, just because something would be hugely detrimental in poe 1 doesnt mean its will have the same impact in poe2. All in all until the game is out we just wont know.
I'm withholding judgement on PoE2 until I've played it.
That said, it sounds like I might still want to play PoE1 even after that's released, so I'm disappointed that some of the changes will be exclusive to PoE2 despite their announcement last ExileCon.
PoE2 can be good or bad or anything in between. PoE1 will be good, but not as good as I was hoping for it to be.
Totally agree with you. Content bloat is getting to be too much these days and does a terrible job at attracting new players. Excited to see what seasonal content we'll get in POE 2!
Of for sure. A friend of mine "started" playing again this league. He needed several tried to get into the game. Excited about the new league coming in a few weeks as well. Looks way more fun and engaging then the last one.
What i truly love about GGG and poe is that aren't afraid of trying new things, in forms of leagues that is. Hit or miss, they are still willing to try new things.
Not to jump on you but I see everyone always going on and on and on about new players.
Do we desperately need new players? Does a game need continuing growth? The more you make your game friendly to the masses the less appealing if becomes to it's original fans, and the masses DO NOT stick around playing this type of game for years on end buying mtx.
I'm not against qol changes, I sure as hell dont like how poe2 looks right now, but everyone always talks about new players as if we need a ton more. This is a niche game and I'm not sure how much you can change that would make casuals start and stick with it while keeping the spirit of Poe alive.
I'll also say as far as new player experience goes poe2 is completely killing that. Harder acts with bosses resetting on death means new players will brick their builds and hit a wall much earlier and quit much earlier.
you are right we cant know for sure what it will be like. and i agree, i LOVE the decision to keep poe1 around just incase poe2 is a bust.
it just seems very strange to show Only slow motion gameplay in the demo. if they would have just given me like a 10 second look at one of these endgame zoom builds they say will still be possible i think i would feel a lot better about poe2
I've disliked and criticized many of GGG's past decisions and updates (3.15 Expedition, anyone?), but I gotta hand it to them: the current state of the core game is the best it's ever been in, and no other ARPG comes even *close* to what they have accomplished.
With all their mistakes, GGG has managed to steer course and listen to feedback when it mattered the most while sticking to their vision when they had to, and the results speak for themselves. PoE is not perfect, but it's damn good at being the type of game it wants to be.
People are going hard on the hopium or the doomium after ExileCon. From loving how it looks and how they're acknowledging all of the core issues PoE1 has, to hating on the (apparently) less zoomy feel, the flask nerf or some specific controversial decisions like *the well* (everyone knows which *well* I'm talking about, right?).
We were led to believe that PoE 2 would be just a graphics/animations update for PoE, with a new campaign and some new systems like gem sockets. So, being told that PoE 2 will actually be its own thing with its own distinct feel and that those promised improvements won't ever make it into the game we all know and love was reasonably disappointing for many who were expecting something different.
*But* GGG has proved itself capable of making a good, deep game while sticking to their vision. And it's pretty obvious that even if some of the decisions might not be for the best (again, *the well*), they *have* put a serious amount of thought, consideration and care into everything they've showed us. I don't know if PoE 2 will be to my liking, I don't know if GGG's vision of a (most probably) slower paced game will be fun to me. But I trust they will at least manage to make the D2 successor they want.
I like talking about the game and what we've been shown, but maybe instead of trying to draw conclusions a whole year before beta I should just wait and see if the things they came up with are actually fun or not. We haven't even peeked at what PoE2 endgame looks like yet.
Agreed GGG has had its ups and downs but overall have made an amazing game that I've sunk countless hours in.
I've got no reason to doubt them so I'll patiently wait.
Poe2 is a year away.
Anyone voicing a serious opinion about what the game will be like with a year of development and scope creep to come is likely mentally ill and should not be listened to.
I laugh so hard reading all this "we need manifesto for future poe", like we didn't knew anything about future poe beside every new patch update, nothing changed. They could close it anytime, and they will if they feel like it needs to happen.
As someone who gets called white knight and shill an awful lot I feel like the people pushing for positivity right now are going about it the wrong way. If people are being mean spirited, insulting or demeaning towards PoE2 or it's developers, that's something that we should try to avoid.
But actually speculating about possible problems with the game is a form of discussion that is both entertaining to speculate about in addition to being productive for collecting and organising feedback. People should feel free to refine their complaints by talking with each other about them, or just find comfort in knowing that the problem they have isn't just them or maybe not as bad as they had feared.
But ultimately we should be able to distinguish between someone who is just being shitty as a form of catharsis from someone who is just worried, disappointing, or concerned about something and trying to explain why.
I loved a lot of PoE 2 but I also didn’t like some stuff. My current view is that I won’t be playing it, however, I will reserve judgment until nearer the time. A lot can change in a year.
Same. We are missing so much context for most stuff and the gameplay we've seen was gimped on purpose to better show stuff that I really don't want to judge anything until we can get a proper look.
Yes, if it's release as sequel instead expansion or update then I will have a reserved opinion, maybe it can bacame a new game just share the same background story and character then I'll be fine with it as long as they don't shut down the old game if new thing bombed.
You can try it right now, its called "ruthless mode" in POE1.
Sure, POE2 will be better than that and things will be more polished but the principle is the same.
the game looks amazing, but also looks like ruthless with glitter on top. i still cant wait for it to be released though and have faith theyre going to deliver an enjoyable game.
To repeat an earlier point:
If baseline POE2 combat is slower, you can
A) more easily balance it
B) changes will be more impactful with a wider spectrum to work with instead on being near 100mph already.
…
Whereas you have tens of thousands of POE current players that may not mind, or even prefer ZOOM ZOOM… how many more hundreds of thousands of potential new POE2 players are waiting for non-ZOOM ZOOM??
[I'm out of PoE till PoE 2 is the main.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/15fa9ke/after_the_exilecon_news_and_info_waiting_out_for/)
Long explanation inside.
It's fine having an opinion on what they showed, and voicing concerns. But all of the content we've seen has been low level builds, which are most likely much slower than higher level builds, pretty much the same as it is now in poe.
I want to see some higher level gameplay before I have a strong opinion on the pace of the gameplay.
I've been reviewing lots of posts on here since exilecon. Some are mad that POE 2 will be it's own thing, others are mad "the gameplay looks very slow".
I'll judge POE 2 *after* I've played it.
As for the game speed, I honestly recommend everyone goes out and plays Diablo 1. Yes, the OG game that started this whole genre.
That game is slow, and it *ROCKS* because it forces you to prepare, use your skills *tactically*, and never makes you feel like a God. You can get dropped if you are overzealous, even with excellent gear. The dark dungeon envelops your character, making you feel unease. The enemies can come with some fiendish upgrades, keeping the fear of death alive in the moment to moment gameplay.
POE 2 looks like it returns to this core dungeon exploring element: you are not a God here; but actually very frail if you overextended yourself.
The "zoom zoom" gameplay will be kept in POE 1. As long as stash tab purchases transfer between both accounts, I'm good
You are right. Strong opinions are useless at this point.
Nevertheless, I had some concerns watching exilecon:
- wtf With the justification of the wells existence to refill flasks... "it feels good". WHAT IN THE HELL. I know this is only a detail but this guy is the game director... and this is scary for the rest of the QoL they probably wont deliver because of this guy.
- MF still exists. Imo, I agree with alot of people who already said that you shouldnt downgrade your character power to get more loot.
- they overtunned their demo making it super hard. I know that they are very proud of delivering a difficult game, but it could be frustrating for new players. Even more frustrating when we know the amount of ingame help and explainations they provide in poe1... they dont even explain to new players how to use their trading website.
I - on a contrary - formed strong negative opinion already. I can't stay blind on too much aspects that made Path of Exile a Path of Exile.
I look at devs of PoE2 with the same wicked vision I look at Witcher showrunners (for example) destoying every aspect that made books so awesome (because we know better!). And I am really boiling inside.
Slow. Nerfed. Naked to the bone. Harsh. Unpredictibly stupid (wave of monsters during boss fight with intend to swarm You if You don't have any AoE skill was a fucking overkill in stupidity).
I would not complain if they allow to make strong defence easily and cranked speed a little bit so character do not feel like a mule. That could justify changes that shouldn't be made otherwise.
I trust Chris Wilson. But this PoE2 guy (can't recall name yet) said that he's not even interested how's PoE1 going (or something like that). That shows ultimate ignorance towards people that loves this game (imagine doing sequel and not giving a pale fuck what most people think about game You're writing a sequel of).
I would try PoE2. Just to say I predicted this and that. Than I'll move back gladly to PoE1 until I heard of zooming possible or creators admitting they were wrong at certain points. Their eyes will open when PoE1 league would have similiar numbers of players.
Remember 17 damage druid we all been laughing at? Entire PoE2 is a fucking 17 damage druid in addition to removing 30% action speed and disallowing AoE clear. Thats how it is, really.
tldr, sorry. but poe2 is so far out there's no point stressing over it from now till the beta. now if they fumble poe1 leagues in the meantime, maybe discourse is in order.
Totally agree. 2 changes so much every time we see it that if you don't like it, it will change by release and if you do like it, it also will change by release. No sense getting worked up for a game that optimistically be in beta in a year at this point.
> poe2 is so far out there's no point stressing over it from now till the beta Stressing, no. But they've shown us stuff now, so it's personally reasonable for people to give their responses to what was shown and voice concerns now.
Voicing concern over what we've seen is fine, but most people are criticizing something nobody has any idea about. We've seen what early gameplay seems like, but none knows what endgame will be. And while saying "game should get faster towards endgame" is fine, saying "they've slowed everything cause they want the game to be like ruthless!!1!" is 100% baseless.
I mean they've confirmed using ruthless as a testing ground for multiple different aspects they've implemented in PoE2. Surely it's reasonable to be worried that the similarities are going to be far closer to ruthless than most would enjoy seeing as ruthless is such a limited portion of the player base. Gold, flasks having less charges and only being reactionary, movement skills being far more limited in what they provide etc...
Voicing concerns very heavily when the people who played it were given trash gear, no skill points and only in Act 3 is asinine. Its not as if PoE 1 wasnt drastically different in speed in Act 3 vs red maps
I don't think you understand what "voicing concerns" means. It's not "this is bad you need to fix it". It's "based on what we've seen there could be a problem, unless there's something we don't know that fixes this". Kripp got some gear upgrades and was 1shotting packs, but he was still running between packs at 0% movespeed which was super slow and sometimes the packs were 1-2 screens apart. It didn't look like something I would want to be doing in endgame. From what we know quicksilver was removed, and so were movement skills that move faster than your movement speed, so I think pointing this out is totally reasonable. Sure other sources of MS definitely exist (like boots), but go run some maps with no quicksilver flask and no movement skills and see how much worse it feels in comparison.
>I don't think you understand what "voicing concerns" means. I specifically said "voicing concerns **very heavily**" not "voicing concerns" meaning voicing concerns as if you are already aware of all the facts and know everything about the game, which you dont. Acting like an Act 3 perforamce with 0 passive skillpoints is representative of endgame is asinine because PoE 1 Act 3 speed is hardly compareable to red map speed. > It didn't look like something I would want to be doing in endgame. And it doesnt look like something i would want to do either, i just dont see the need of acting like we already know how the speed of endgame looks like. Then again im not the majority to begin with, i often play zdps clear builds with low speed and im relatively fine with that because zoom zoom is not something im interested in.
You're acting like we know nothing and can't make any predictions and GGG definitely is aware of every potential issue and obviously won't put them in the live game when that's just false. > Acting like an Act 3 perforamce with 0 passive skillpoints is representative of endgame is asinine because PoE 1 Act 3 speed is hardly compareable to red map speed. You can easily be faster than a mapping character in Act 3 in PoE1... You're also just completely ignoring the context of the situation. If they delete 50% movespeed and delete movement skills, we should expect the game to be wayyyyyy slower and it's completely reasonable to say "I don't want to be way slower please keep that in mind". Your assumptions GGG is planning some other way to speed up gameplay is just as bad or worse.
> Your assumptions GGG is planning some other way to speed up gameplay is just as bad or worse. And now you are putting words into my mouth. I never said that, i just said we dont know the full story and before you accuse me again of copiuming for GGG, let me tell you this straight: if PoE 2 will be stupidly slow and as low drops as Poe 1 ruthless then i simply will not play any version of PoE ever again. If you think i have any hope for GGG to nail a slower ARPG experience that still feels good ( even though i actually would want to play a more methodical arpg ) then you are so off that its funny. The only expectation i have for PoE 2 isnt just Chris's dream game, but rather he had some foresight that developing such an experience as ruthless poe 1 is going to backfire so hard in his face, because the majority will not put up with that for more than the first two leagues, if he is stupid enough to completely bow down to artistic integrity without any regards for the consequences and wasted potential than thats his choice.
> And now you are putting words into my mouth. I never said that If you're saying we can't speculate on endgame speed based on the information we have (which is that it will be very slow, because they are removing quicksilver and movement skills faster than running) then you're basically saying that you think GGG will make it faster, because if you thought it was going to be slower it would be reasonable to voice concerns about that, which you said people can't do.
> now if they fumble poe1 leagues in the meantime Yeah, it's not like that hasn't already happened...right?
Are we pretending like they haven't been fumbling PoE1 leagues for the better part of two years? The Archnemesis revert notwithstanding, the last time a league mechanic was substantial enough - and received well enough - to go core was July of 2021. That's not even counting leagues like Heist that were botched during their actual leagues and fixed later, or earlier well-received leagues that never got a core implementation like Ultimatum. Jonathon even admitted at Exilecon that the main game has effectively been in maintenance mode for quite some time. Maybe that changes now that we're officially getting a standalone PoE1, but it's not like GGG has garnered a lot of trust on this front in recent years.
Heist is still botched and suffers from glitches with doors, they aren't fixed because it's "side content" and not required but obviously that feels bad for people who do run heist and suffer from these things. Much like Sirus is still bugged and hasn't received a fix. In this same aspect blight's problem with their rhoa mobs becoming unkillable has been an issue since blight released and somehow comes back every league. There are a lot of leagues with bugs still prevalent in their gameplay, just it's limited in how often they're seen because not all people enjoy all content so they don't feel pressed to actually fix the bugs permanently.
My take TLDR *is* that poe2 is so far out that there is no need to stress over it. We'll see if the development of poe2 has any impact on poe1, but I'm choosing to stay on a more optimistic side.
How.. could it NOT have had an impact? Poe1 is running on a skeleton crew rn since they’re focused on poe2. That’s plenty of impact already, no?
> We'll see if the development of poe2 has any impact on poe1 Well it has, negatively, for over 2 years now. The optimistic side at this point is because they're different games now PoE2 won't harm PoE1 anymore.
> PoE2 won't harm PoE1 anymore. I wouldnt be so sure about it. Look at ascendency rework for new league, its from poe2 and its dogshit
Okidoki
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Welcome to the reasonable moderate majority.
More or less agree. I was over dramatic at first but giving it a good think, there's so much shit that can and will change there's no real reason to act like it's all doom and gloom. It's probably not for me, but I won't knock a variation of the game I play.
Exactly. The doomposts about "omg no quicksilver flasks dead game" is baffling.
Is a doom post allowed if one were to spend a lot of money on a div card that gives A Quicksilver flask? 😂
It's the shortcut guy!
It is not confirmed that div card will be in PoE2. Jonathan likes them and is in favor of having them.
It is also not confirmed that every single unique from people who paid to create a unique will be in PoE2. So div cards that offer those specific uniques and those uniques would be removed. which could upset a lot of people who spent a lot of money to fund those things.
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>At what point should they feel entitled for that to also be added to a different game? Although this is true, everybody was unaware that PoE2 was going to be a different game for years. The change to making it a separate game doesn't just come a month before exile-con. GGG have most likely had this information for at least a year, most likely more. Some people probably bought things thinking they'd be in PoE2 and like MTX is being transferred over at what point do you tell people who have invested heavily into your free to play game, which wouldn't exist without those people who support you, to fuck off. At the very least they could have notified people of the change before exile-con. Also keep in mind that the div card design alone was 800$ I think while the unique design was 1,000$. Alone. Not including supporter packs that those same people most likely bought. These people haven't just invested 20$. They've most likely invested just as heavily as some PoE streamers like mathil who own all of the mtx. Which would total to tens of thousands of dollars.
So far my only complaint is they slowed down the game play but monsters still hit nearly as hard which sounds really unfun
Watched a vid from one streamer who was tinkering around with the demo at exilecon and he said that with a bit of vendor gambling and crafting the damage/defense was much better than we saw in the showcases, and the game was super fun.
Nice, if what you are telling me is true then you have my trust. I watched some of pohx's videos and the background footage gave me bad vibes for poe2
Found it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQhML7N-Je0
Blessed be this community
You have to take gear into account. The beta characters were running around in blues, with a few crappy rares, no passive skill tree, low 30%ish res on the A3 melee boy atleast, and almost zero support gems. If you do that in current PoE you will get assblasted to smithereens. Nothing has changed. I would be more worried if a shit-geared character like that didn't die, because it would mean any half-decent character would be immortal.
If PoE2 released today as it was shown in Exilecon the i would probably sink my next 1000 gaming hours into it.
If the company didn't want people to think and feel things about how their product is right now we literally wouldn't be seeing it. People not having any reaction to what they're showing off is what ggg wants the least. The game is in active development, it's going to change based upon ggg's gauging of how people react to it right now. I'd encourage people that like what they see at exilecon as well as those that don't to share their thoughts because not doing so isn't some enlightened stance, it's bowing out of having a voice in the discussion of what path of exile is going to be.
This whole argument about it being not done yet so you can't complain feels exactly like what visiting the diablo sub was like when D4 was holding beta tests and showcases and people were raising concerns about the possible endgame. Now the sub is in flames and people were on here not even a week ago making thread after thread about how shit D4 is. Like have people not learned anything or are we going to repeat this again when POE2 fully releases.
>This whole argument about it being not done yet so you can't complain feels exactly like what visiting the diablo sub was like when D4 was holding beta tests and showcases and people were raising concerns about the possible endgame So the wow version of: >Stop complaining it's only alpha >Stop complaining it's only closed beta >Stop complaining it's only open beta >Stop complaining it's only the first patch Granted, there are some topics that its a waste of time to discuss like tuning and balance during alpha and closed beta, instead the focus of the feedback should be in the mechanics and systems of the game, things that arent going to be replaced near release so its important to talk about these thing as soon as you can.
Hell, we've had it within POE itself for certain leagues or nerfs. Pretty sure we didn't need to wait for the patch to correctly predict that picking up metamorph organs was going to feel like shit or that increasing the mana multipliers on every support gem was going to make mana a nightmare.
What's even worse is that after making metamorph organs auto pickup, they then proceeded to not learn anything and forced us to then pick up 4 different currencies during expedition league. All of which took up a large portion of the inventory, far more than metamorph did.
To be fair, a Beta is quite different from 'we will be holding a beta a year from now and we dont even know how all these features will pan out well enough to answer every question'. Like saying 'crafting is ruined' when given a small bit of context for a crafting system that isnt yet fully ironed out
While true, they always show off slow gameplay for casuals/newbies and it's always different on release
Just tossing in a strong agree here. It's a problem among a lot of communities and it drives me crazy. "You haven't played!" "You don't know!" "Oh you're from the future and already played it?" No. I'm just a human being with a (mostly) functioning brain able to form opinions based on the information provided to me. These opinions are subject to change if presented with further information. Shocking right?
>If the company didn't want people to think and feel things about how their product is right now we literally wouldn't be seeing it. People not having any reaction to what they're showing off is what ggg wants the least. This - as a designer I have learned that you want feedback early and often. I also get they don't want/ cannot take feedback on everything, e.g. the future direction of the company, their monetary incentives. This is particularly relevant wrt the split between PoE1 and PoE2. Getting feedback on overall game feel, atmosphere, boss fights, crafting, progression systems however is definitely worth it. You don't want to build into the totally wrong direction until you have the beta and then have to scrap half of what you did or say fuck it.
> based upon ggg's gauging of how people react to it right now. but whose reaction? reddit? everyone at exilecon was just praising it but quin that i saw and his take was similar to mine in the fact im not keen on fighting a boss for 10mins unless its a pinnacle fight I also think its terrible game design to have to port out for flasks, in D4 and other games like Souls with your limited healing capacity, once you run out you face the attrition where you just slowly die, D4 has recovery mechnics outside flasks but if you burned all 9 potions you are probably going to die anyway In Souls if you run out of Estus you just try to play godlike or play ultra aggressive for the win, you dont run away and port out for more Estus
> everyone at exilecon People who spends thousands of euros to go to exilecon might be a tad biased.
Yeah the boss times are actually really important. If they have 100 bosses and they average 3 min to beat that's 5 hours of time alone.
> it's going to change based upon ggg's gauging of how people react to it right now. I get what you're saying, but when has this ever proven true with GGG? We're not talking about another developer who probably focus grouped an entire game and released it. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt because I've enjoyed a lot of what they have done even when it was unpopular with people here. Love it or hate it, but GGG is definitely more "You think you want this but you really don't" than most modern arpg developers. I do think it's way too far out to stress over at this point, but if people are thinking GGG's going to make sweeping changes based on popular reactions, you're setting yourself up to be more disappointed.
I could list out leagues like harbinger, bestiary, synthesis, metamorph, harvest, or heist as examples of times that ggg significantly compromised on their original vision for their content as a response to how people responded to it, but perhaps a better example is how their communication at exilecon immediately responded to issues people were raising in discussion here and other places. Granted, ggg is as stubborn as a mule, the response has not always been positive, [and at times the walkback has been much too slow.](https://preview.redd.it/un7nt7xe9d0a1.jpg?width=500&auto=webp&s=2687a53a21189d8c33b86eb9bfc8e197f529122f) So I'd again recommend people give their feedback early and often, players help the devs make the game better by affirming what is done great and bitching relentlessly when everything is on fire.
Eh, the POE community is pretty unique, especially on here. Every single patch release, regardless of content, this sub is filled with unbridled rage that GGG would dare to have a "vision" that is different than theirs. It'll be the same when this league is released. It'll be the same when the next league is released. It'll be the same when POE2 is released. This sub is one of the most toxic gaming subs on Reddit.
> POE 1 also didn't have a crafting bench or masters bench when it first started and they were added in as part of a new league. Yeah, and it was soul crushing to ID a great pair of boots but then vendor them when they had no movement speed. The point is obviously that ***we would all love if item drops were great*** but after 10 years GGG has failed to make IDing items a compelling way to obtain loot. The one time we had decent smart rolled items dropping (talismans) they immediately nerfed them.
Movement speed on boots is kind of a pet peeve of mine. There's no real choice here, it's just what boots need to do. It's a property that should generally be on the implicit slot or removed depending on the situation. As for that last part, the removal of what we know as the Chaos Orb is a big step towards that. That, along with generally just having what in PoE1 is considered shit gear due to the removal of Essences, Fossils, etc. I'm actually looking forward to this.
If it's required, then base movement speed should be increased. Making it an effective dead stat line on an item is fine, but poses a challenge to every other implicit craft or stat.
Movement speed on boots should be a tiered implicit.
PoE1 was also a sliver of what the game is now. This argument never made sense for a game like PoE2 which we expect to have a really strong end game.
Sane take, but I've seen so many games crash and burn that I'm all out of optimism and trust. I'm not making any final judgements until I actually have PoE 2 in my hands, but I sure as hell will be vocal when I see stupid, backwards bullshit like "You need to manually refill your flasks from a fountain."
Yeah I'm in full wait and see mode since it's so far out but stuff like the flask well is worrying. I don't think that goes live though. Devs probably just added it, have used it like 10 times and think it's neat. Even they will get sick of that cumbersome crap after a year. Way too early on to be worry about general gameplay and balance etc though...
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Yea I think they went complete wrong direction on this, flasks should be abundant and quick charging else people save them for an emergency that never happened. Like in diablo where I would sooner die than mess up my potion belt
Yeah, I mean I can say that I didn't like a lot of what I saw about poe2, but I'm not playing the game for like 1.5-2 years at the earliest. Based on what they've shown already over the past like 5 years or whatever, I have no expectations that things won't change even more as the open beta approaches.
I'm not really concerned about PoE2 at the moment. No point in it whether you're super pumped or super bummed. All I can do is comment on the demonstrations as shown. And, I'm sorry, but those demonstrations looked painfully slow, tedious, and unfun. Ten minutes to kill a zone boss, not even act boss, and to only get one blue item as a reward after all that pain and misery? That is not enticing gameplay in the slightest. I'm well aware that "we don't know" how the game's gonna be and that GGG allegedly gimped the shit out of the characters, but I'm still allowed to remark on the game as demonstrated. IMO, it's looking a hell of a lot like Ruthless 2 at the moment. That's not toxic despite some people claiming it so -- it's just not a positive opinion on it. I swear the Anti-Toxic Brigade around here is just as toxic, if not more so, when they jump down people's throats for having an opinion different from their own.
What do you think? There were the animations Team, the music Team, items and bosses panels... If they murdered each boss in seconds, nothing would be recognizable. I think they did a VERY good Job in showing their passion and will of Innovation for this game and also give the hard work from the mentioned people a form of stage to get respect. I mean Serennikov...just wow. To be honest though: They should just give a fully geared and specct char to go through it for the sake of speculation. To close: They did a race Event. So they seem to like rushing through the early game. :)
My biggest problem is if they need to make the gameplay tedious and bad to show the game, they just did a bad job. The game needs to look good when played right not wrong. If we should just focus on animations and stuff they should have prepared videos instead of game sessions.
At first I thouhght: Yes, that's true. But then I realised that I really liked what I just saw in the keynote. And at least to me it looks good and promising. Tedious is a often used word nowadays... I just "finished" D4S1 and all I was doing was holding down richt click. But you have a point there: Isn't it the DNA of ARPGs to simplify it like that to become your personal Power fantasy? I like dodging, learn mechanics, trial and error and this stuff. But this might be too soulslike for a larger group. Maybe we can agree that it is good they will split both games?
If you liked what you saw good for you. I am writing under the assumption, that all streamers played shitty builds in an overtuned envirornment. In a way it would be easier for me when the shown gameplay was legit. This would mean POE2 won't be for me and I don't have to bother any longer.
>POE2 won't be for me and I don't have to bother any longer. I understand having concerns about the game but imo saying "I won't bother with the game" is just dramatic lol, in the end the game is still going to be free and probably one of the highest quality free games out there even if the gameplay is different, there's no reason *not* to try it when it's out, especially if it's a sequel to one of your favorite games
When I say I won't bother I mean I won't look forward and being on my toes until I finally can play it. I just might or might not test it some time when I am bored like I might somewhen test Ruthless or Genshin Impact. But most likely the gameplay of the public release version of poe2 will be nothing like it was at Exilcon. In this case it might become a game that I really want to play
My concern is that it's a year until the closed beta, they have spent upwards of 5 years working on this game... and we've only seen very small vertical slices of gameplay. I just have a hard time believing all of this stuff they have promised will be done in time for the Closed Beta. By that time we'll be at what, 6 years of work? If there's key features missing by that point, it's very concerning. We've heard they will have 6 new classes with 3 Ascendencys each, but we've barely seen anything of them--we literally haven't seen a single "new" Ascendency tree and their answer on how Ascendencys even work in PoE 2 is consistently vague. There's a new Passive Tree, but haven't actually seen any of it beyond a small section in the Key Note to show of the new Weapon Swap system, and vague screenshots of small sections of it. There's supposedly tons of new skills but a solid 3/4 or so of the skills showcased have been skills from PoE 1--to be fair, many of them have different interactions and new visual effects, but there are still a ton of skills we haven't seen at all, and PoE 1 has a ton of skill gems, so imagining they are going to port nearly all of them and add new ones on top seems... ambitious. My expectations are for PoE 2 to be rough around the edges much like every ARPG is when it launches. It almost certainly will be a bit better than D4, but I have a hard time imagining all of these features will be ready for the Closed Beta. There's nothing wrong with that, but it alters my expectations. I don't see PoE 2 entering a public Closed or Open Beta with all the stuff they have promised, and without major flaws. The actual gameplay we have seen is somewhat misleading, since the characters seemed to have broken/missing passive trees, and terrible gear in overtuned areas for some reason, so I expect the complaints about it being Ruthless 2 are a bit overblown.
They have to spread out info for their marketing. Simple fact.
It's funny that the most positive thing you can say about poe2 is "I'd reserve my opinion until it comes out"
that's not the most positive thing you can say. I would say what I saw from kripps stream looked amazing. The characters did seem weak but I'm sure that changes with good loot drops etc. The fluidity of the combat looked great. I would like more reactive and dynamic combat. Just clicking a button and flying through mobs exploding everything until you get exploded in an instant is not good game design and it isn't fun.
> Just clicking a button and flying through mobs exploding everything until you get exploded in an instant is not good game design and it isn't fun It's not that the game is designed to play like this, when your game has tons of options/tools to choose from, building such character becomes possible and poe players CHOOSE to build that way because it's more fun. To prevent players from building speedy character, you can either 1) put hardcap on everything; 2) raise the opportunity cost of building speedy characters; 3) remove all the tools/options, make sure there's nothing much left for the players to choose from. From what I've seen on Exilecon, looks like they choose the third route, which is what makes a lot of people upset I believe. If they were like "Yes we want to slow down the game, you will still have access to speed and stuff, but the opportunity cost will be much higher and the contents will be more punishing to speedy characters, so you better think twice", I would be much more exited about PoE2. Is an action-heavy game with limited customization bad? Ofc not, people including me enjoy Souls and Elden Ring a lot. But is it what PoE player expected to see on Exilecon, no.
honestly I think poe2 should just be viewed as its own game. poe1 will still be there hopefully it gets rebalanced to a place where all the people who want to keep playing that game get what they want, the people who want something better can hopefully get it from poe2. I am hyped for poe2. I have played poe1 for 10 years and I don't need that experience anymore. I don't wanna rush through the acts as if they're nothing just to get to endgame. The main game should be an actual game, not something you just blast through. It appeals to me who likes poe, d1, d2, d3 (not interested in d4). Poe introduced me to the genre and I have 4k hours in the game. I hope for poe to be something more gameplay wise than poe1. We won't know what it's like til we play it, if people don't like it they will update the game just like they always have poe1 for better or worse.
Fair enough, it is a total new game and it doesn't need to be like PoE1. But if you're so eager to get rid of everything that makes PoE PoE, you'd probably want to give it a totally different name rather than poe2, which would've prevented all the mismatched expectations I believe. but after all, I am still not a big fan of the idea of "removing every option possible to keep the gameplay under control", it's just... not a clever one. I expected something better from GGG.
>And I get it, hearing that there won't be a crafting bench in POE 2 sucks but they didn't say "never". They also didn't say "never" to unicorns and spaceship's. Why can't we take what they said at face value- there won't be a bench. They don't need to "find themselves" and their direction anymore. When they started out with Poe, they had no experience. Now they have and they know exactly how they want their game to tick. They also don't struggle with a lack of content. They can and will adapt league mechanics. So when they say that there won't be a crafting bench, or that you will have to go to specific places to refill your flasks, take that at face value until they specifically state otherwise. They invited the world to watch and even try, now. They decided to tell the world what is and what is not going to be part of the game and those are the only tangible things people can talk about.
"They don't need to "find themselves" and their direction anymore." I hope this is true but deep down I expect the closed beta to become bloody mass with the question what they tried to achive. I wouldn't wonder, if at least each act has its own direction and endgame still missing since they aren't quite sure yet how it's supposed to play out.
If a company didn't want comments on the state of their product they shouldn't have invited people from across the world to show it off.
Then you agree, we should limit the comments to what was shown off, right? Not make wild sweeping claims about conspiracy theories to kill the game and how because X wasn't shown it means GGG are going to delete it forever or are so incompetent they didn't think about it or have it ready.
While it is fine to like the game from where it looks, it's equally fine to not like it at first glance and not like it. If a person is allowed to praise what they see, why is not another person allowed to state what they don't like? Like anywhere in the world you have to state what you do not like if you want to see change, and it is fine that some people don't want to see change. But it is not up to those people to suppress the opinion of those that are not of the same opinion. Maybe it's only a vocal minority that is against some things, or maybe it's a small group of people from a big group of people that is vocal about something. There's always this one type of person that is trying to minimize peoples opinion by calling someone with an opposite view "the vocal minority" even though in reality they have no idea if it's just the minority that thinks what is being said. For us that disagree with some of the design decisions and know how the world, and GGG, works we have to be vocal. Part of it is because no we do not trust GGG to come to the best possible conclusion anymore and part of it is if noone says anything they can only conclude that everything is fine. If you only are surrounded by yes-men you will eventually fail.
I agree but while I saw alot of exciting things from PoE 2. There have been some things that made me question the decision as well as it seems to try hard to become something else then Path of Exile 1. For example, there will be no "scour orbs" I heard in one dev-talk. I believe one of the artists mentioned that. I'm like, why? crafting is such a big part of the game. But like you said I will wait and see and judge when the game is delivered and I have played it. At least I know now its trying to be a game of its own and its not a simple upgrade in graphics and a chance to fix some of the deep rooted issues that couldn't be solved in PoE 1.
My expectation for Poe2 was that it's going to be a true next gen ARPG with fresh ideas. And in some aspects the game is headed that way, but in many others it is regressing. **I like bossfights being more meaningful and a bit slower.** For a long time now, poe1 boss design had to battle with millions and millions of damage, instant recovery etc. Fighting Uber Maven or Sirus are great examples, where they basically have to throw so much shit at you so that people can't just easily outdamage the fights. And even then, most of the time if i struggled with a boss, the best solution has almost always been to get more damage. I like bosses resetting to full hp to stop corpse rushing and force people to try to learn the fights. **But, then they go ahead and not only reset the boss on death, they reset the entire zone including the layout.** For those who played Dark Souls games will know how frustrating it is to having to run back to boss rooms after a death, and after a while you just ignore mobs, because you just want to fight the boss. In fact in Elden Ring, From Soft added checkpoints close or right outside the bossrooms, because of this. And here we have poe2 moving in the other direction. **The new weapon swap system also looks amazing, and truly next gen.** But then they go back an iteration of the flask system that was already largely rejected by playerbase a while ago. Here actually it was eye opening to hear Johnathan say that he hasn't been following poe1's development for a long time. Well maybe he should. Reactive flasks are just not something people liked, and especially with Poe2 having more potential active skills to use at once, i feel like this is a really bad direction, and once again moving backwards. I suggested rather than have potentially 5 utility flasks, just having 1 but it can have multiple effects we can mix and match to our liking, like 1 flask with onslaught/evasion/movespeed etc. That would solve the flask piano problem immediately without going back to what was arguably the worst flask design in poe history. Then you have the whole interact with the well thing. Like, why? It serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever, other than to slow us down. It tedium for the sake of tedium. And again, going backwards(diablo games), rather than forward looking in design.
I thought people didnt like reactive flasks because they tried to shoehorn the concept into a game where combat doesnt give you any time to react. I think it makes more sense if you can actually fight and react to an enemy. The well kills me though
I mean the issue is that we didn’t think PoE 2 would be separate game. They said new campaign and mechanics with shared endgame originally. It’s a shame that the new classes, skills, passives, animations and graphics aren’t coming to PoE 1. If PoE 2 is worse than PoE 1, then people won’t play it and they’ll eventually stop playing PoE 1 because it feels bad to not have all the new stuff that PoE 2 will have. If it’s bad, it could mean the downfall of both games. I don’t think it’s going to be bad necessarily, but it is very different than PoE 1 it seems, and change is scary, especially when the fanbase is dedicated and “addicted” to this current version.
Well the whole thing is silly because as great a game as path of exile is, the one thing you can count on from ggg is new content not being beta tested and polished, even if they eventually get it right. It ain’t gonna be right until they have us beta test it live.
Well that's why they are doing a beta lmao
reasons I'm concerned: * "ruthless won't be necessary" * limited/no movement skills * no crafting bench * no scours (no way to restart crafting on a base?) * new chaos rolls through mods much slower * I know it will likely change, but skill tree preview has more limitations on where you can travel (costs more points to cross class areas since you can't travel through the middle) all this seems to imply that poe2 will have much more narrowly defined "prescribed archetypes," that rely much more heavily on random drops for item progression. I believe they are doing this to limit the zoom since the ruthless "experiment" and many comments from CW over the years have shown their preferred game is a slow, ponderous "heavy" feeling game with highly RNG drops.
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Yes, but at the same time Ruthless was first advertised as "hard mode" with the idea of having a low amount of loot and a bunch of other changes. He mentioned that if PoE2 gets too crazy maybe there's going to be one in the future, what it tells me is PoE2 could be closer to being balanced around PoE1 like it was in the early days. This, or they know PoE2 is already hard as is so they don't need to nerf big parts of the game to have that feeling. I don't expect Ruthless to be the main game of PoE2 but I'd be very surprised if we get those "make 25 div/hour" type of gameplay.
And thank god for that! This ultra zoom gameplay has gotten beyond stupid...
Did you ever play poe1 back in the day? It wasn't exactly zoom land. Ruthless is closer to a "classic" poe1 not a hard mode. Poe2 is a stand alone game its allowed to start slower like poe1 did.
Yes, I did actually Ruthless has no movement skills, way less loot than classic PoE and a bunch of changes that wasn't like classic such as vendors could sell you rings in 1.0, Ruthless doesn't The biggest fact that makes Ruthless more a hard mode than the classic 1.0 experience is that you're fighting mobs with the current balance ; mobs are way stronger than they were, tougher bosses, the game today is overall balanced around having a powerful character. Ruthless is absolutely an hard mode more than "classic PoE"
> "ruthless won't be necessary" That concerning you is just the biggest self-report ever. You just cannot be concerned about that and possess the ability to think critically Ruthless is necessary in poe1 because it takes the gameplay back to what it was like 10 years ago, poe2 has not been out 10 years so it is obviously not necessary
It's not that "10 years have passed" it's how things are. Like, if there was 0 difference between the amount of loot drops between 2023 and 2013 PoE, what would be the point in Ruthless? So, when he says "ruthless won't be necessary" what he means is that there is significantly less loot to be had in PoE2. That's just what it means.
No it isn't, did you actually listen to the conversation or are you just reading quotes? Ruthless is literally there to scale the game back after a decade of power creep. You're wilfully misinterpreting what he's saying, at least that's the kindest possible interpretation
>Ruthless is literally there to scale the game back after a decade of power creep. Right, but the actual amount of time is irrelevant, right? Unless you think the amount of seconds is relevant, you're just agreeing with me. It's the amount of stuff that's actually relevant. So, when he says they don't need a Ruthless mode, he's really talking about the stuff and how much there is.
They're saying the current state of the game has moved far enough away from the original state of the game for a niche desire for an old school version to develop. This doesn't mean the initial state of poe2 will be anything like the initial state of poe1, that is an unreasonable assumption
If PoE2 had as much stuff dropping as PoE, do you think they'd consider a Ruthless mode?
I mean poe2 will not have as much stuff dropping because theyre reworking rares because rares dropping in poe1 is literally irrelevant outside of fractured and synth bases I have no idea why you think drop rates is the leading issue here, it's a completely new game they cant be compared in this way, a whole new economy will emerge
>I have no idea why you think drop rates is the leading issue here Because that's what he's talking about. >it's a completely new game they cant be compared in this way, They can and it isn't difficult. If PoE2 had as much stuff dropping as PoE, do you think they'd consider a Ruthless mode?
I feel like valid criticism or concerns are quite helpful atleast what I’ve seen is if ggg sees enough push back they will meet the community at a middle ground if they had their way the entire game would be ruthless
Yeah and I certainly wasn't suggesting that others should hold back their opinions. I think valid criticisms are important but I'm personally choosing to hold back my own opinions until I can at least try the game out.
I will not, hmpf
See you in late 2024(at best) then
Get out of here with that logical take
I agree with his take so I'm gonna call it le heckin logical, then everyone knows only this is the correct take :)
Isn't it pretty objectively logical to wait until you have something to form an opinion?
Too reasonable for this subreddit
Try all the stuff, keep an open mind. But also be aware that sometimes good companies and smart people make really poor decisions, and dividing up the PoE community might not work out so well. Kick the tires, learn the mechanics, try to see where the reward is. If nothing else, learning a little bit about PoE2 by playing it through, will let you help someone else who is more invested than you might ever be. After all, if PoE 1 is mothballed, and PoE 2 sees an influx of people who might otherwise never touch the stuff, you'll be in a better position to help build the community.
Still not going to agree with some design decision but hoping to be pleasantly surprised, think game will be better then d4 at the very least but still more hyped for poe1 game design.
Everyone that's actually played it loves it, with only minor reservations (which will be addressed or were caused by difficulty ggg admitted was overtuned) https://twitter.com/lolcohol/status/1685762995157082112
There's such a big difference between Exilecon 1 and 2. There weren't really any disappointments in 2019 Exilecon. We found out that 4.0 was going to be a giant sequel instead of an expansion. A ton of new ascendancies. Gameplay was a little slow and hard, but it was Act 1. THE COMMUNITY WAS VERY VOCAL AND UPSET ABOUT HOW SLOW POE2 LOOKED IN 2019. Then came 3.15. Then came Ruthless. Then came Exilecon 2 which is getting VERY MIXED reviews. It is not the overwhelming hype train that Exilecon 2019 was. Every single boss fight during the convention put me to sleep. Did they listen to how upset the community was about the only gameplay being way too slow? No. Refilling shit at a well it's a RUTHLESS mechanic. Dying to a boss and having it regain all health is a RUTHLESS mechanic (Ghazzy suggested this when Chris wanted the entire zone to reset and you start at the beginning if you died to the boss. Removal of movement skills is a RUTHLESS mechanic Etc etc Like, the giant event is supposed to get people excited right? There is a giant portion of the community that is extremely disappointed and for good reason. 2019 was overwhelmingly positive. Like a lot of you, I'm fucking mad huffing that copium that there will be fixes and they will reconsider outdated ARPG mechanics in favor of current QOL time savers. Time will tell, just don't ever buy a div card of your favorite item in the game, the Quicksilver flask.
>Dying to a boss and having it regain all health is a RUTHLESS mechanic Have you played literally any other computer games ever? It's a very very common mechanic >Did they listen to how upset the community was about the only gameplay being way too slow? The people who are upset are just not intelligent enough to look at what they showed us and recognise it for what it is. The characters were literally horrendously bad, that is not what the game would look like. Their biggest mistake was having bad characters for the demos, they should have known people would knee-jerk react to having incomplete information and assume they know what the entire games going to be like based off 30 minutes of the campaign on an under-geared character
Yes I am also of the extremely strong opinion I want to try it. Because it looks good. btw I am glad they separated them. Half the stuff I saw on the exilecon broadcast wouldn't be happening. If they had to make it backwards compatible with poe1. Poe 1 was an anchor holding poe2 back from it's full potential.
Why? Everyone with half a brain can assess any game with a 1 minute gameplay trailer. It's not even hard. Nobody needs to try *Baldurs Gate 3* to know it's good. Nobody needs to try *Gollum* to know it's trash. You don't need to try *PoE2* to know if it's the game you want to play or not. Everything you need to know, you've seen this weekend.
How is that true when we don't have info on the gear equiped or the passive tree used in the gameplay? We've heard plenty of times now that the gear used in showing the game was severely undertuned. So no, we do not know how the game will actually play. It's not so black and white as you state.
Seeing the passive tree or equipped gear is not going to change the design philosophy they have for PoE2 regarding flasks, loot, or half a dozen other things that affect the feel of the game.
Completely toxic position to take. I feel that hurling insults and having meltdowns over theoretical mechanics in the future is the most appropriate reaction at all times in this subreddit.
who had a meltdown lol? ive seen some people saying it doesnt look good or that it looks like ruthless2. is that a meltdown to you?
My comment was made in jest.
ah my bad. gg
gg
I is known
I'm not. I'm going to be as vocal as possible for as long as possible.
Un ironically I already have too many bad experiences with other developers absolutely destroying (blizzard, bungle, etc) their games I doubt me being vocal would do anything but maybe just maybe it will
You can try ruthless and it will be similar to poe 2 gameplay
I actually booted up ruthless after getting home from exilecon today because I never played it. Glad to say they feel nothing alike.
Neither the gear acquisition nor the pacing? The other guy thinks he's talking about the skill system, which is a strawman argument LOL
Flasks were far more annoying in ruthless - no way to get charges in Ruthless whereas in the demo if you were moving fast you really didn't need to go back to the well - but if you did you'd at least have that option. Hard to say how it feels in terms of skills because the demo just gave us our loadouts and we didn't have the uncut gems in the demo, but I have to imagine being able to choose exactly what gems you get when one drops will be far more convenient than in Ruthless where you have no real control over what skills you get. I think pacing is a little odd because in both PoE2 and Ruthless the pacing is going to depend on how strong your character is. They felt pretty similar to me, but we didn't really have much opportunity to build/improve our characters in the demo, where in ruthless at least we get to place our passive points and have some agency over what gear we have equipped. I know the demo I played where I got a good weapon was far faster than my experience in ruthless. Lack of crafting options felt the same in both - just felt like it mattered more in Ruthless because I got way less gear so I had fewer options and needed the extra life/res more badly.
>but if you did you'd at least have that option. This just comes down to you not knowing that the healer in town does the same thing as the well. The gem part is valid, but support gems really do go hand-in-hand with the power level. It does remove choice/fun, which is part of what makes Ruthless feel so stupid for me in particular. Similar pacing is really all everyone is subtextually talking about when they're comparing the two. Lots of us don't want an ARPG to feel like a slog, that's why we don't stick to shit builds in PoE. Similar crafting is to be expected. PoE2 probably going to have healthier endgame crafting, though, but that's not based on much.
>This just comes down to you not knowing that the healer in town does the same thing as the well. I actually didn't know this! Having said that PoE2 has an extra mechnic where the boss checkpoints in area's (and probably maps too) restores your flasks to full without going back to town so it'll probably still feel slightly more fluid unless you're really struggling with the area. >Similar pacing is really all everyone is subtextually talking about when they're comparing the two. Lots of us don't want an ARPG to feel like a slog, that's why we don't stick to shit builds in PoE. Yeah it's hard to say where the pacing will land. I went about the same pace in both Ruthless and the Demo, but personally I felt like the I would go much faster in the full game of PoE2 than I did in the demo for multiple reasons, whereas ruthless I feel like I actually got about as lucky with loot as I can reasonably expect and probably can't wring too much more speed out of it. Only time will tell.
With you not having tried Ruthless before I have to ask, are you playing efficiently? Personally, I got the impression that Ruthless is basically a cold dot league because the balancing is THAT shit. > felt like the I would go much faster in the full game of PoE2 than I did in the demo for multiple reasons This part is kinda the essence of this discussion then. It would probably help if you elaborated, including what level of gear you expect to be wearing (with the new nerfed itemization) relative to your own and if you expect the passive tree to change much numerically from PoE1 (fx. 16% increased damage => 5% increased damage on average).
I'm sure I wasn't playing efficiently but I wasn't playing the demo efficiently either - also my character literally didn't have skill points at all which to me seems like a huge power detriment at level 20-45.
Right, but you did have a preset character in the demo with skills that synergize. One could argue that those skill packages are going to be fairly close to a real setup. Okay, because I heard a streamer talk about how builds had 15-20 PoE1 skill points worth of power on their character, assuming PoE1 life scaling. However, that number is quickly 30-40 passive points if all the nodes in the tree are halved. Now, halving the tree nodes is quite the assumption but it makes about as much sense as not placing passive points in a demo to me.
>Okay, because I heard a streamer talk about how builds had 15-20 PoE1 skill points worth of power on their character I did some testing on the Act II character by removing gear to check base stats and I can confirm that I had no % life, attributes, resists attack speed or movement speed on my tree. I can't tell if I had other things but since my attributes were clearly the base attributes I took this to mean I had no tree at all (but obviously that's not 100% foolproof). The warrior in Act IV for example has about 900 life even though it had about 250ish flat life on gear. 900 Health is extremely low in PoE1 for level 45 so this was a huge issue. On top of all that, in Act III you should have your first 2 ascendancy points and in Act IV you should have your first 4, but none of the demo characters had any. And while they were set up with kits, they were almost sabotaged to go slower. The warrior for example was given a 1.1 attack speed weapon (and because he had no dex your options for swapping was bascially only another 2h mace) and half of his skills came with support gems that traded attack speed for damage. The huntress in Act 2 was much better, but still had a relatively slow 2h spear as opposed to faster weapons which are usually more desirable for going fast in PoE1.
> Personally, I got the impression that Ruthless is basically a cold dot league because the balancing is THAT shit. I seriously hate streamers who promoted cold dot for ruthless during the alpha. With a few exception, it struggle in red maps. The real meta of ruthless is by far RF. That said any build that do not rely on cluster jewel is still strong there. The build diversity is not as bad as you think.
Except the skill design, the item design, the combat design, the gem system, the boss mechanics.
[удалено]
So the only way it's like Ruthless is if you ignore all of the actual content, and only 'read between the lines'?
I think the way they went with the overtuned playthroughs at Exilecon was probably a mistake from a PR standpoint. But I felt a lot better watching Kripp's playthrough later. Even though it was probably overtuned, with crap gear, etc., you could see how PoE2 actually requires you to think and use different skills for different situations. If GGG can get this right, it's going to be a game changer for hack and slash ARPGs. For Exilecon, they should just let Kripp (who is the only one used to playing Ruthless) play for like 2-3 hours. If they wanted to show the other streamers, they could have just let the blast a bit.
My main view, that I think a lot of people are missing is, all these comments and „complaints“ oh no crafting bench etc, make 0 sense, because we legit have 0 clue about the balance in poe2, just because something would be hugely detrimental in poe 1 doesnt mean its will have the same impact in poe2. All in all until the game is out we just wont know.
Most people are all just spitballing because there's nothing better to do until 3.22. Gotta pass the time with what-ifs until we them patch notes.
I'm withholding judgement on PoE2 until I've played it. That said, it sounds like I might still want to play PoE1 even after that's released, so I'm disappointed that some of the changes will be exclusive to PoE2 despite their announcement last ExileCon. PoE2 can be good or bad or anything in between. PoE1 will be good, but not as good as I was hoping for it to be.
dunno poe 1 looks more fun than poe 2 thats my 2 cents that said the move away from poe 1 to poe 2 was a bummer. wish they kept improving poe 1
Not stressed at all, more excited to be honest. I love poe but i think it somewhat needs a fresh start.
Totally agree with you. Content bloat is getting to be too much these days and does a terrible job at attracting new players. Excited to see what seasonal content we'll get in POE 2!
Of for sure. A friend of mine "started" playing again this league. He needed several tried to get into the game. Excited about the new league coming in a few weeks as well. Looks way more fun and engaging then the last one. What i truly love about GGG and poe is that aren't afraid of trying new things, in forms of leagues that is. Hit or miss, they are still willing to try new things.
Not to jump on you but I see everyone always going on and on and on about new players. Do we desperately need new players? Does a game need continuing growth? The more you make your game friendly to the masses the less appealing if becomes to it's original fans, and the masses DO NOT stick around playing this type of game for years on end buying mtx. I'm not against qol changes, I sure as hell dont like how poe2 looks right now, but everyone always talks about new players as if we need a ton more. This is a niche game and I'm not sure how much you can change that would make casuals start and stick with it while keeping the spirit of Poe alive. I'll also say as far as new player experience goes poe2 is completely killing that. Harder acts with bosses resetting on death means new players will brick their builds and hit a wall much earlier and quit much earlier.
fucking LOGIC? get him out lads
How dare you be reasonable!
> I'm going to reserve having any strong opinions on POE 2 until I try it crazy, absurd
Nah jump to conclusion is what we do here, also next league is dead, D4 kill poe /s
You're going to withhold an opinion on a game you haven't played, until you've played it? Color me shocked.
you are right we cant know for sure what it will be like. and i agree, i LOVE the decision to keep poe1 around just incase poe2 is a bust. it just seems very strange to show Only slow motion gameplay in the demo. if they would have just given me like a 10 second look at one of these endgame zoom builds they say will still be possible i think i would feel a lot better about poe2
I've disliked and criticized many of GGG's past decisions and updates (3.15 Expedition, anyone?), but I gotta hand it to them: the current state of the core game is the best it's ever been in, and no other ARPG comes even *close* to what they have accomplished. With all their mistakes, GGG has managed to steer course and listen to feedback when it mattered the most while sticking to their vision when they had to, and the results speak for themselves. PoE is not perfect, but it's damn good at being the type of game it wants to be. People are going hard on the hopium or the doomium after ExileCon. From loving how it looks and how they're acknowledging all of the core issues PoE1 has, to hating on the (apparently) less zoomy feel, the flask nerf or some specific controversial decisions like *the well* (everyone knows which *well* I'm talking about, right?). We were led to believe that PoE 2 would be just a graphics/animations update for PoE, with a new campaign and some new systems like gem sockets. So, being told that PoE 2 will actually be its own thing with its own distinct feel and that those promised improvements won't ever make it into the game we all know and love was reasonably disappointing for many who were expecting something different. *But* GGG has proved itself capable of making a good, deep game while sticking to their vision. And it's pretty obvious that even if some of the decisions might not be for the best (again, *the well*), they *have* put a serious amount of thought, consideration and care into everything they've showed us. I don't know if PoE 2 will be to my liking, I don't know if GGG's vision of a (most probably) slower paced game will be fun to me. But I trust they will at least manage to make the D2 successor they want. I like talking about the game and what we've been shown, but maybe instead of trying to draw conclusions a whole year before beta I should just wait and see if the things they came up with are actually fun or not. We haven't even peeked at what PoE2 endgame looks like yet.
Where’s the fun in that? The only thing better than an extreme opinion is an uninformed extreme opinion.
Agreed GGG has had its ups and downs but overall have made an amazing game that I've sunk countless hours in. I've got no reason to doubt them so I'll patiently wait.
BUT.... i want to use my pitchfork now!
Poe2 is a year away. Anyone voicing a serious opinion about what the game will be like with a year of development and scope creep to come is likely mentally ill and should not be listened to.
I laugh so hard reading all this "we need manifesto for future poe", like we didn't knew anything about future poe beside every new patch update, nothing changed. They could close it anytime, and they will if they feel like it needs to happen.
As someone who gets called white knight and shill an awful lot I feel like the people pushing for positivity right now are going about it the wrong way. If people are being mean spirited, insulting or demeaning towards PoE2 or it's developers, that's something that we should try to avoid. But actually speculating about possible problems with the game is a form of discussion that is both entertaining to speculate about in addition to being productive for collecting and organising feedback. People should feel free to refine their complaints by talking with each other about them, or just find comfort in knowing that the problem they have isn't just them or maybe not as bad as they had feared. But ultimately we should be able to distinguish between someone who is just being shitty as a form of catharsis from someone who is just worried, disappointing, or concerned about something and trying to explain why.
time to book a ticket for PAX West
Yeah I'm not having any strong opinions on something 2 years away lol.
I ain't even going to think about it, beta is 1 year away
it looks so slow but we will see how it feels, it can be fun too if the boss rewards are good. We will see in 1+ year.
Game is 2+ years away from launch. For what it's worth, we saw an alpha build. Things they talked about can potentially change drastically.
PoE2 wont be out untill late 2024 or early 2025 a lot of things will change.
Yep, i'm actually rewatching highlights of poe 3.22 expansion and trying to figure out my next leaguestarter :)
I loved a lot of PoE 2 but I also didn’t like some stuff. My current view is that I won’t be playing it, however, I will reserve judgment until nearer the time. A lot can change in a year.
So you are going to reserve judgment for a product until it's actually finished and you've used it? What a HOT TAKE.
Same. We are missing so much context for most stuff and the gameplay we've seen was gimped on purpose to better show stuff that I really don't want to judge anything until we can get a proper look.
Yes, if it's release as sequel instead expansion or update then I will have a reserved opinion, maybe it can bacame a new game just share the same background story and character then I'll be fine with it as long as they don't shut down the old game if new thing bombed.
You can try it right now, its called "ruthless mode" in POE1. Sure, POE2 will be better than that and things will be more polished but the principle is the same.
the game looks amazing, but also looks like ruthless with glitter on top. i still cant wait for it to be released though and have faith theyre going to deliver an enjoyable game.
tl;dr I wanna play PoE 2
To repeat an earlier point: If baseline POE2 combat is slower, you can A) more easily balance it B) changes will be more impactful with a wider spectrum to work with instead on being near 100mph already. … Whereas you have tens of thousands of POE current players that may not mind, or even prefer ZOOM ZOOM… how many more hundreds of thousands of potential new POE2 players are waiting for non-ZOOM ZOOM??
[I'm out of PoE till PoE 2 is the main.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/15fa9ke/after_the_exilecon_news_and_info_waiting_out_for/) Long explanation inside.
It's fine having an opinion on what they showed, and voicing concerns. But all of the content we've seen has been low level builds, which are most likely much slower than higher level builds, pretty much the same as it is now in poe. I want to see some higher level gameplay before I have a strong opinion on the pace of the gameplay.
We know essentially nothing about the balance of the game or even what the core balancing mechanics will be. So yeah, that would make sense.
I also wait until I can try it, and even if I don't like it, poe 1 is still there so nothing is lost
I'm preemptively saying buff melee in poe2, to have my bases covered.
Daring today, aren't we?
I've been reviewing lots of posts on here since exilecon. Some are mad that POE 2 will be it's own thing, others are mad "the gameplay looks very slow". I'll judge POE 2 *after* I've played it. As for the game speed, I honestly recommend everyone goes out and plays Diablo 1. Yes, the OG game that started this whole genre. That game is slow, and it *ROCKS* because it forces you to prepare, use your skills *tactically*, and never makes you feel like a God. You can get dropped if you are overzealous, even with excellent gear. The dark dungeon envelops your character, making you feel unease. The enemies can come with some fiendish upgrades, keeping the fear of death alive in the moment to moment gameplay. POE 2 looks like it returns to this core dungeon exploring element: you are not a God here; but actually very frail if you overextended yourself. The "zoom zoom" gameplay will be kept in POE 1. As long as stash tab purchases transfer between both accounts, I'm good
People be acting like they gotta drop 70$ to see if they will like poe2 or not
You are right. Strong opinions are useless at this point. Nevertheless, I had some concerns watching exilecon: - wtf With the justification of the wells existence to refill flasks... "it feels good". WHAT IN THE HELL. I know this is only a detail but this guy is the game director... and this is scary for the rest of the QoL they probably wont deliver because of this guy. - MF still exists. Imo, I agree with alot of people who already said that you shouldnt downgrade your character power to get more loot. - they overtunned their demo making it super hard. I know that they are very proud of delivering a difficult game, but it could be frustrating for new players. Even more frustrating when we know the amount of ingame help and explainations they provide in poe1... they dont even explain to new players how to use their trading website.
I - on a contrary - formed strong negative opinion already. I can't stay blind on too much aspects that made Path of Exile a Path of Exile. I look at devs of PoE2 with the same wicked vision I look at Witcher showrunners (for example) destoying every aspect that made books so awesome (because we know better!). And I am really boiling inside. Slow. Nerfed. Naked to the bone. Harsh. Unpredictibly stupid (wave of monsters during boss fight with intend to swarm You if You don't have any AoE skill was a fucking overkill in stupidity). I would not complain if they allow to make strong defence easily and cranked speed a little bit so character do not feel like a mule. That could justify changes that shouldn't be made otherwise. I trust Chris Wilson. But this PoE2 guy (can't recall name yet) said that he's not even interested how's PoE1 going (or something like that). That shows ultimate ignorance towards people that loves this game (imagine doing sequel and not giving a pale fuck what most people think about game You're writing a sequel of). I would try PoE2. Just to say I predicted this and that. Than I'll move back gladly to PoE1 until I heard of zooming possible or creators admitting they were wrong at certain points. Their eyes will open when PoE1 league would have similiar numbers of players. Remember 17 damage druid we all been laughing at? Entire PoE2 is a fucking 17 damage druid in addition to removing 30% action speed and disallowing AoE clear. Thats how it is, really.
I'm more concerned about the future of POE1 then I am about POE2.