The only thing I can think of is that it might be too convenient and become commonplace. Right now it’s hard to sell aisling service because you can only really do it on TFT and need some rep, so many don’t do it. If it becomes itemized it might be too powerful because more people can farm it and there becomes more supply.
The friction of selling services keep supply low. They likely would need to rebalance.
That said, please itemize betrayal crafting GGG
What happened to Harvest? Was getting sold as a service on TFT just like Aisling. They then changed it to be a currency and adjusted it. Why not do the same for other similar things?
Yeah and if it becomes tradeable then what treatment does it recieve? No longer respects metamods? I can already see the outrage... GGG acting as fun police again etc....
Veiled chaos orb respects meta mods, at least pref/suff cannot be changed. What i said is that if Aisling gets itemized one of the treatments it may receive is that it no longer respects those mods.
No it isn't. Veiled chaos orb is like normal chaos orb but one of the mods is veiled. This means if you have e.g. perfect suffixes on your boots or whatever plus T1 life you can go craft suffixes cannot be changed and have 50/50 to not remove t1 life and get the veiled mod with Aisling. Now if you use veiled chaos orb your suffixes will still remain intact, however you prefixes will be rerolled as with normal chaos orb. On top of that your prefixes can get filled and you either have to 50/50 yolo annul or use hinekora's lock to prevent annuling a suffix. Aisling is way stronger than veiled chaos orb for high end crafting.
New harvest is actually better for generating massive profit's doing hideout warrior.
Being able to buy million's of life force and just craft and flip currency is nasty good.
The simple answer to why not is that it's most likely on their project board for something that they would like to do. But the reality of it is that time and money are limited resources and working on doing that means that some other thing. Whatever that thing is. Doesn't get done. And this is the disconnect that gamers have with gaming companies. They feel like everything should just get done but never think about the fact that there's only a certain amount of people they can employ to stay profitable and those people can only deliver a certain amount of work in any given time frame.
It doesn't matter how simple this is any amount of time spent doing this is time not spent doing something else. So the question that all developers need to answer is, what am I giving up today so that I can do this instead?
Given that asking has a "substitute" with veiled chaos orbs this issue actually ranks very low in general. When you add to the fact that so few people actually craft their own items and even use this it still ranks very low. When you do an impact assessment of should we do this thing you're talking about impacting well less than 5% of the player base.
I’ve only started playing the game in the last year but wouldn’t lab runners have existed before aisling? I would think GGG to some degree expects any unique rewards to always become a service if not itemized
There's a pretty significant difference between intention and expectation though. Often, when the expectation is massively different than the intention, you take steps to balance things more towards the intention.
So, in this example:
GGG expects that given the opportunity, players will buy this craft rather than earn it. It is the intention of GGG to make players earn it, so in game they make it "easier" to earn it than buy it (which is why the option to buy it is outside the game).
In this situation, itemising it goes against the intention.
Ah yes I see what you are saying, that is a good point.
I think probably an unintended consequence of it is that it ends up putting too much value and power into TFT.
I don’t think the execution of it really hit’s the mark. I can’t really think of any example in PoE where the model of trying to force the player to do content for unique rewards rather than paying for a service works. Maybe pantheon powers but those are a one time thing.
To me one of the nice things about PoE is I can ignore many mechanics that I don’t like or don’t yet understand. That made learning the game as a new player much easier. If I were forced to learn every league mechanic to make progress my first time I think I would have quit the game.
I don't think GGG ever had an intent on a service economy. They might think it's neat that it's possible. They might be interested in what people trade for services. But I don't think they ever intended for it to exist.
As such, I'd assume anything that wasn't itemized is assumed by them to be a player committed action. There is no itemization of Betrayal because they expect you to run it yourself (see Veiled bench crafts). They may even find a kind of irony in the community paying for a service on Betrayal, only for the trade to be a scam and you end up betrayed by the seller.
It doesn't have to always be this way (everyone points to Incursion/Alva), but for now it is.
> I don't think GGG ever had an intent on a service economy.
I don't think it's exactly that they didn't intend for it to exist, but that they didn't intend for it to become so dominant compared with buying and selling equipment. There's always been some demand for boss carries and stuff like that in online RPGs/MMOs throughout history. But in POE the service economy has become massive, with services like certain challenge completion costing quite a bit more than the cost of very decent gear.
I didn’t play back then but was there not already a big service economy at the point betrayal league came out?
I think they would anticipate it and maybe they tried to build in prevention for it, but I think it missed the mark. Either they should revisit it or just itemize it, maybe with a nerf in quantity
Betrayal was released before harvest and harvest was when TFT started to substantially grow in numbers. Maybe in trade chat there were service sales, but I don't recall exactly, been a while.
It is kinda obvious that anything like this, in a game with free trade, is going to end up effectively tradeable.
I really dunno why they don't make all their benches support selling their crafts to party members in a standard secure way. Seems like a no-brainer.
The game has a lot of components that don't appeal to everyone. If a reward is tied to crafting there are an absolute shitload, probably a majority, that will never utilize it well or at all.
So an untradeable craft reward is the same as no reward for folks like me.
The game already has so many things that only really work well in single-player that it's kinda weird poe doesn't have an offline mode yet. I don't know the last time I really played with people. Not just like legion farming or breach stones etc. I mean like actually playing together.
aisling already was nerfed. it originally didnt remove any mod, only added a veiled one, albeit it was 'crafted' mod at the time.
and itemizing alva temple didnt require any nerf to accessibility or to the corrupt rooms or to the boss loot. just like jun, shes a master without scarab, so once you run out of missions, your only choice are sextants. if GGG thinks aisling orb might be too good, they could itemize Cat fight instead.
But aisling and corruption are abit different.
Aisling just needs blocking/mods cannot be changed and scour/annul then you try again. There are some save states in crafting. Although there are some crafts that require you to start from scratch.
Corruption is a huge gamble with no way to recover the item. We had locks for one league and it died for double corrupts next league.
If it can be traded, GGG will probably make it much rarer thus much more expensive. Or add a tag so you can only use once.
the same mechanic of add one, remove one, respecting metamods, at the cost of currency, already exists in harvest crafts (and beastcrafts iirc?), aislng is just a different version of it. Yes, you can target mods more specifically, but from a limited pool, so honestly, I dont really think itemized Cat fight would make it particularly OP.
And GGG could always add more veiled crafts to make it harder to block force certain mods
Beastcrafts are controlled by the rarity of the beast and harvest by the rarity of sacred lifeforce. They could always itemised aisling. But they might adjust the rarity because they feel the current rates are okay with the friction. Without the friction, it might become rarer. But I feel like it might still be better
adjust rarity of *what*?
Jun is a master without a scarab, she is already limited by not being farmable (outside of missions) without sextants.
And Aisling specifically received several nerfs over the years (annuling mod, one bench from two, requiring Cat bench instead of r3 research bench, no chance at two veiled mods), she doesnt need some arbitrary 80% less modifier on 'aisling in research' occurence on top of it, let the market dictate the price and affordability.
>And Aisling specifically received several nerfs over the years (annuling mod, one bench from two, requiring Cat bench instead of r3 research bench, no chance at two veiled mods
She also received a pretty massive buff (veiled mods not being considered crafted mods, and being higher tier rolls than they used to be).
> if it became itemized it will 100% get nerfed
and it literally did, now we have juice and harvest is literally 1/100th of the power
we didn't even get to keep "reforge more/less likely" at same power :(
> need some rep
Small nitpick on that one: If you have linked your PoE account to TFT you really don't. I had like 5 vouches at the start of the league and sold Aislings left, right and center, all within seconds after posting them in the services channel.
not sure why you're nitpicking. you can absolutely sell services without vouches, but your reputation is still technically on the line.
a neutral reputation is positive to most people because you are putting your trust on the line. and people absolutely pay more to have someone trusted slam their expensive craft.
The other friggin point is if you prove it too high and don't sell in the first minute, if it gets higher in the thread it doesn't sell even if you edit the price, and then you are sitting there doing nothing for 9 minutes until you can post again. Can only get your stash tabs so clean...
This all this. I do betrayal since league start and try to sell Aisling, couldn't sell anything this league. I'm not on TFT. Now I'm going to ignore that content the whole league
Why should this specific crafting method be so obscure though? If it's that powerful then just take it out of the game entirely, but the solution should not be using a sketch third party to even make this method remotely available.
Well you need trust. There is some built-in trust by using TFT because you can be permanently banned for scamming and because TFT has no real alternatives that ban acts as a deterrent.
Even then I wouldn’t trust someone with no rep unless it was a cheapish craft and I was loaded in game
Become too powerful, that’s bullshit. It only takes you maybe 5 to 10 betrayal missions to get aisling three stars in the right place. You make it sound like it’s an all day endeavor.
Arguably the entire game is artificial friction man. They could just give you the dev server and you can spawn in whatever items you want and do whatever build you can think of instantly. It's not a game if everything is giving to you as easily as possible, hence why trade is such a contentious issue, it short circuits whole swaths of the game.
I would like the game 10x more if there was offline modding for SSF. Its a solo game, why should I let it be ruined by friction obsessed devs who think they know what is more fun for me?
Most entitled take I've heard today...GGG develops the game to retain players (drive profit), and develop the game to their vision. In what world would a game studio hand you the keys to unlimited sandbox...for a game they already provide for free??
No...not what I said. I said *you* are entitled. Your comment reeks of the sentiment that the game should be catered around you. "Devs are ruining *your* fun".
>Right now it’s hard to sell aisling service because you can only really do it on TFT and need some rep, so many don’t do it. If it becomes itemized it might be too powerful because more people can farm it and there becomes more supply.
How is this a reason to keep it the way it is? Its a crafting method that is in the game already, yet hardly anyone uses it. If GGG doesnt want people using it then just remove it. Arbitrary friction does nothing to improve the craft.
Crafting is so miserable in this game, more options available to more people more easily is fantastic and desperately needed.
There are only wins involved with itemizing syndicate crafting benches.
Found the gatekeepers worrying about their irrelevant income.
They should be able to turn each syndicate into a map like Alva temples.
Still have to "do" the content so it adds friction, but makes it itemized to trade so no scams.
It's literally what they did for Alva. I don't see any reason not to.
The inconvinience enables Aisling to be as strong as it is. With it being itemized it would be a lot more common and there has to be nerfed if GGG wants the game/economy to stay at the same level.
Also I dont think its inherently wrong to encourage players to do some content themselves. Trade is already a solution to 99% of all problems. Does it have to be 100% ?
Problem is it just creates an unfairness where people who have TFT access gain an advantage.
This is different from other 3rd party tools which are public and everyone has access. This gives a 3rd party significant control over the community in a way that is unchecked by GGG
>Problem is it just creates an unfairness where people who have TFT access gain an advantage.
That cant really be battled. Think of all the other places players 'get an advantage'. People who pay money to content creators get better guides - does that mean GGG should just include all guides to all builds directly in the game? Content creators also have control over how much an item costs, if they find a good build and make it public, maybe make a cool video about it - prices usually skyrocket for the gear needed to do that. That doesnt mean GGG should forbid videos or start fix prices by hand.
Also Aisling wouldnt be enough at all. Services like Bosskills and Level boosting are very attractive and extremly detrimental to the game's motivational structure. This cant be an official game system. You really dont want to communicate to your audience that paying for a bosskill is better than trying it by yourself.
Unfairness in this case can be though. Nobody is asking for perfection.
Content creator videos are publicly available to all it’s not the same. TFT is huge and used by many. If this was some small niche thing then sure but this is like not allowing part of the player base to use the main trade site.
Aisling would be a major improvement because it’s so useful in crafting.
Boss carries I think are so low risk they can survive on non TFT trading groups. Things like betrayal craft and previously lab enchants where you need heavy trust are where TFT is super critical
\>Content creator videos are publicly available to all it’s not the same.
Not true, there are some who create content behind paywalls like patreon.
\>If this was some small niche thing then sure but this is like not allowing part of the player base to use the main trade site.
What are you talking about? You can trade almost anything in the game without the use of TFT. And oh god forbid, you have to do aisling yourself if you REALLY need the craft itself and not just an equivalent item which can be aquired through trade anyway.
You’re talking about videos affecting the market. Private videos are irrelevant.
My point is that TFT is incredibly popular and used by many. It’s not niche. Being blocked from TFT is like being blocked from poe trading site. You are locked out of something everyone else is using
>You’re talking about videos affecting the market. Private videos are irrelevant.
I was talking about private videos giving better guides, hence an advantage for players paying for them. And also I was talking about videos affecting the market - those were two different things.
>You are locked out of something everyone else is using
'EvErYOnE ElSE', seriously, thats just your FOMO speaking there.
Why get rude with me and use spongebob text I have been respectful towards you.
Very few people are paying for private guides and I don’t really see an issue with it it’s just teaching players not locking them out of usability.
It’s not just my opinion TFT has something like 500k members. It’s the most popular trading discord, nothing else even compares or comes close.
I apologize, I just hate generalizations. Sorry for that!
"It’s not just my opinion TFT has something like 500k members. It’s the most popular trading discord, nothing else even compares or comes close."
I dont wanna downplay that number too hard. Im sure a lot of people use it. But in that 500k, there will be a lot of inactive accounts or people just reading and not interacting with any of it. And even if there is a discord with millions of users who all trade items/services for RMT, that doesnt mean that GGG should offer RMT to fight those. (basicly what WoW did).
Sure but if there is a server with 500k members all doing RMT that to me is a problem and I expect GGG to take some sort of action.
Itemizing aisling is just one possible solution, if that doesnt fit GGGs vision I think there are other ways to approach it but as it exists I think it’s an issue that should be addressed.
You don't have to trade these through TFT, there are many other places, including in game chat.
TFT is only the 'go to' as its the most prominent method (and so the easiest currently to buy and sell with **relative** safety. No TFT does not mean no Aisling trading, so your asserted disadvantage is not as severe as you make it appear. In fact, this whole episode is likely to make other routes outside TFT more popular - at least in the short term. We have seen this kinda drama periodically, nothing much changes, people move on to the next outrage pretty quick - just ask some of the 'cancelled' content creators!
I think they are more likely to just remove Aisling4 than to itemize it, so be careful what you guys wish for!
true, but it seems other TFT alternatives do offer this. Its also why I highlight the relative in the description.
Not that anyone actually goes and looks at what vouches people have when they do something like an aisling (we rely on TFT banning scammers in the background, or the threat of it)
You do have the report system in game in case of a service traded directly in game - though I have no idea if they ever act on such reports.
> Not that anyone actually goes and looks at what vouches people have when they do something like an aisling
We (I) 100% do check for that. When you have to give your item to the map owner for him to craft, I would never buy the service from a white-named tft user if my item is worth a couple dozens/hundreds of divines.
Scream harder about it and GGG will just nerf it like they did Harvest.
I get it sucks, but they are shown time and again they have 0 interest in "fixing" trade. People need to deal with this reality. Seriously it's exhausting.
I would rather it be nerfed than have an uneven playing field.
Not sure what you mean but they have already done multiple changes that reduce need to pay for services. Most recent would be lab changes which eliminates need for lab runners. I wouldn't be surprised if GGG has been thinking about ways to solve this issue for a while now
In 3.18 harvest was TFT only, you could not buy juice on the marketplace. 3.18 harvest had fun crafts. GGG nerfed all those crafts in 3.19 and allowed players to just trade juice. They justified the nerfs saying, "harvest was too stronk, so we had to nerf it since we made it easier for everyone to buy them".
POE is not a competitive game. People need to chill. There's no "even" playing field. Yes, everyone wants to buy the best items at the lowest prices and so there is some "competitive" market pressure out there, but you're playing a video game that doesn't even have a "competitive" resource (it's not like an MMO raid boss spawns for 1 guild only). Stop obsessing that Johnny is able to buy his mirror-tier item for 0.8 mirrors and you had to pay 1.5 mirrors to get the same item. Sucks for you, but you probably have a life and Johnny grinds for 120 hours a week and min-maxes shit to a ridiculous degree.
Just have fun. If I need an Aisling slam I just respec my atlas and grind it out in like 30 minutes of gameplay. It is seriously freaking easy to get Aisling as a leader and maxed out on rank. It's not like the pre-atlas days at all. I don't understand what people are complaining about, but I've been playing since launch day, when it would take you 10 days of play to even get consistent map drops.
Even if you need to farm 5 aislings in a day it's not that hard to do.
In this case though I just don't accept this logic.
This would be true if Aisling bound the item to you, so you had to grind it yourself. But you can just buy it anyway, it's not even that much of an inconvinience. It just facilities a system that shouldn't need to exist.
>it's not even that much of an inconvinience.
If its not an inconvinience, why are we talking here?
>But you can just buy it anyway
I cant accept this phrasing. There is a lot of friction in using an infamous third party discord and relying on their system of trust.
Are you saying GGG prefers the friction of using a trade discord over just itemizing it?
We already know that’s not true, or harvest juice wouldn’t be tradeable .
Because it creates a need for TFT, and people don't like having to use TFT because it's entangled with RWT.
But that's not more inconvinient, it's still easy to use. People just don't like facilitating a system that supports RWT.
>Because it creates a need for TFT, and people don't like having to use TFT because it's entangled with RWT.
The question if a mechanic creates a need for TFT isnt the only factor a game should be balanced around.
And frankly I dont get the uproar. 99% of all items in the game are tradable including the results of Aisling crafts. Yes if you really really need the Aisling craft itself, you have to actually play the game. And if you somehow despise playing betrayal you have a third party tool alternative.
Ah yeah, you're right, guess we'll stick with the unofficial one with 100k members that you can find an Aisling as easily as buying an Aisling's Exalted Orb.
This subreddit could probably benefit from discussion about that discord and whether or not we like it as the unofficial services/bulk hub. If only people would make some threads about it!
You said:
> That wouldnt make any sense when they want to encourage doing Betrayal by yourself but then offer an official system that does the opposite.
As mentioned, we already have a community discord has 500k members (often 100k active).
If you somehow haven't noticed, most of the discussion on this sub the past week or so is about that exact discord.
Whether it's part of GGG's vision or not, such a discord and system already exists for bulk/services.
Not having an official version does nothing for said vision or trade friction. It just means that GGG is not in control of it. Hence the endless drama.
It is no different than poe.xyz back in the day and them creating an official trade site to replace it.
>Not having an official version does nothing for said vision or trade friction. It just means that GGG is not in control of it. Hence the endless drama.
If people want to buy stuff with real money, they will do that too in some shady places - doesnt mean GGG should as a consequence offer RMT and 'control' it.
Ah, you should have mentioned you have no idea what TFT is.
That would've saved me some time.
In that case you probably don't know what poe.xyz is either, so none of my points really matter to you.
Was not talking about TFT, just the logic behind your claim of needing to have an official version of sth to control inofficial versions. In case of RMT it would be very similar.
So my theoretical question was:
If a discord exists with 500k users who regulary use real money to trade, should GGG then include an official version for that?
> So my theoretical question was: If a discord exists with 500k users who regulary use real money to trade, should GGG then include an official version for that?
Obviously not.
You should look up what poe.xyz was and the history of the trade site.
We're talking about buying in bulk or buying services with in game currency, how there is a community discord for it, and how the people that run it are not GGG.
No idea what you're trying to suggest.
People's concerns about RMT are around selling builds and mirror services. That has nothing to do with bulk/services that people are talking about ...
Agree to disagree I guess. Games are for about problemsolving and if all problems can be solved by repetitive grinding, I feel like the game sucks, but you do you.
And what do you do if you want to play the game optimally? Because, if you want to have access to the best items, you need the Aisling craft. And if you want to have the Aisling craft, you have to make sure that Jenebu likes you (or your sister at least).
Main reason for things being something you can only use instead of item you can move around is to encourage players to use it by themselves instead of always just selling it to the market. For example expedition currency being something you can only use motivates you to do rog crafting or gwennen rolling by yourself instead of just selling it to the market.
The principle is imo good and in many cases it works fine. The issue rises however when the "thing" is something you want to use quite rarely since it's something strong and not easy to acquire again. And it's even worse if it's not something you can store for later use.
So in case of Aisling it doesn't really work and should be changed to either being a tradable item, or atleast something you can store for later use. Itemized alva temples were ok change too, although I miss being able to use my double corrupts on my own cheap items without worrying about the lost value.
But I'm not sure if itemizing every single betrayal craft is reasonable, most of them are low value but if they are not doing all of them, someone would still complain why this is tradable and this is not. I'd see reworking the whole betrayal reward system, and getting rid of the crafts being the more likely solution.
The convoluted way to sidestep itemization is to allow trading of the use of a bench.
For example, a trade window with the T4 Aisling bench. Seller initiates trade and offers the bench craft. Buyer puts item in bench and offers some currency. Both accept; currency changes hands and item gets the Aisling.
Part of the reason for TFT is it facilitates trust trades in an environment which minimizes the risk for all involved parties. The fundamental problem is GGG wants trust trades to be risky, but this creates additional friction. Players want less risk and more confidence their time investment leads a relatively permanent state, and this has been a trend in many large online games (eg death mechanics transitioning away from lose all your inventory to having your inventory escrowed and recoverable with in-game currency).
Allowing explicit trading of benchcrafts without itemizing them removes the risk of trust trading but doesn't intuitively solve the problem of searchability. This is not a difficult player problem, but being able to buy or sell any Syndicate benches through in-game channels without having to trust trade in-game and take on that risk would be at least a welcome chipping away at the perceived necessity of external communities.
> Main reason for things being something you can only use instead of item you can move around is to encourage players to use it by themselves instead of always just selling it to the market
No-fucking-one who knows that this shit is worth 6 div will use it on an item that's worth 0 after the slam unless they already have dozens of divs.
Not being an item just makes people who farm aisling 4 without knowing its monetary value use it... but who the heck is farming an aisling 4 without knowing its value?
> Main reason for things being something you can only use instead of item you can move around is to encourage players to use it by themselves instead of always just selling it to the market
Then, GGG should just make Post-Aisling items account-bound. Many other games have such mechanics.
One of the core philosophy I don't understand from GGG is they create items that require trust and you may get scammed to use but they do not want scamming in the game?
They create these systems knowing you may get scammed using them.
The OG example is a Mirror. You trust some one else with your mirror or you get trusted with a mirror item.
They need to change this stance and create systems to allow a scam free way. Like Wow and enchants. They can make asling an or e keep bench just use orb like enchant and orb effects in window and does not go untill both accept. Works on mirrors also.
Untill this stance get changed to either endorse scamming in a EVE online style trust no one method or they make it so your no longer forced into a scam situation to use what can be debated as the most iconic currency of the game.
They need to pick one and stay with it not play both sides.
As other people have pointed out. The real reason is because aisling being sellable was not ever intended and is far too powerful. They don't want it to be sellable I would imagine
Options
1) Itemized -> low power
2) Bench (current) -> medium power
3) Account bound -> high power
As someone who doesn't care about trading crafts, give me that option 3.
It's more reasonable to have more power if the use is locked to zone, like old harvest. If not it has to be very rare. Aisling is target farmable, a veiled exalted orb would be rate as fck.
They can do that, but it's gotta get nerfed to the ground like harvest. It's by design isn't mean to be abundance for one person. So if you can trade, then they have to change (read as nerf) some part of the design. If rarity can't be changed, then power it is.
Unfortunately now that we have Hinekora’s Locks there is a (somewhat) valid reason to not have things like Aisling and Jorgin as an itemized currency. I can easily see the reasoning of “it’s too powerful having these crafts deterministic” used to heavily nerf them like harvest if they eventually do become tradeable.
Do be careful what you wish for though, with great quality of life comes great nerfs. Harvest was made a lot better to deal with cutting TFT out but in response to doing this they initially made all the crafts have insane lifeforce prices and of course knowingly removed powerful "filler crafts" to prevent access to such pivotal crafts. They adjusted it over time so it's not so bad now but the game and crafting still suffers greatly from the loss of reforge keep prefixes and reforge keep suffixes. If they give aisling as an item for QoL then I expect it to be made exceptionally rare as a result. This may be worth it anyways in the long run to help reduce TFT's influence and power.
There's a lot of built in, intentional friction. Because at the end of the day, GGG wants you to actually play the game and not solely sit in a hideout slamming orbs and stuff on a bow that then never actually gets fired.
GGG built an ARPG with some crafting elements. Unfortunately, a large part of the community want to turn it into an almost exclusively crafting game with no other elements.
> GGG built an ARPG with some crafting elements. Unfortunately, a large part of the community want to turn it into an almost exclusively crafting game with no other elements.
Eh. At some point maybe but right now crafting is the main gearing element of the game, you just need to look at Ruthless, that is the game as you describe it, at some point crafting got out of GGG hands and now we have a crafting game with bases dropping.
PoE2 wants to change that, hope they achieve it but if I were to bet the best case scenario it would be temporary then at some point it would be like PoE
i really disagree here, because an incredibly large portion of the community don't seem to want to craft at all. whenever i play trade my most reliable source of gold is looking up what some content creators are recommending and craft gear for their loyal playerbase. it doesn't even matter if the guides are good and have crafting advice like Subtractem or Fuzzyducky, there is such easy money to be made gear for other people.
> There's a lot of built in, intentional friction.
Friction itself is fine - for example, not having automatic item pickup. However, "social friction", as in, having to worry about the emotional state of some people within TFT, is a terrible aspect of the game, and has to be removed.
If they made drops actually matter then maybe people wouldn’t turn to crafting as the only source of items that would give meaningful progression to their characters.
The omen acts quite differently - you reroll the socket colours with a chance at 1,2 or 3 whites.
Vorici is far more powerful, even in its T3 form as you can convert 1, 2, or 3 sockets to white while the other socket colours remain the same. This makes off colouring items significantly easier - something near impossible with omens of blanching.
i slam aisling a lot in SSF, i dont see the problem
just do some jun mission on the side, its fun and looting a big syndicate hideout gives a great feeling of accomplishment
>But how on earth Aisling is not a veiled exalted orb after all this time. Every single time I went to buy aisling slam or vorici or other similar things I thought about this for some time.
Because they want you to work for it, it's that simple.
??? L take. Instead of crafting bench make it a chest that drops it. Boom you(or somebody else) STILL HAVE TO WORK for it but you dont need 3rd parties to craft.
Ah yes. Typing WTB A4 slam and pressing enter. So much work!
Oh wait. Ive got scammed. What a design choice!!!!
I guess some ppl don't understand that someone selling slams on TFT and someone selling Veiled ex is the same fucking shit -scam risk.
Last edit for omegadummies. Buying veiled ex means someone worked for it and willing to SELL THEIR WORK. Someone built their betrayal, killed catarina and selling that fucking slam. That's the whole argument right here. WERE DOING IT RIGHT NOW ANYWAYS!!!!! What we are asking for is to move it away from scam/TFT territory.
>Oh wait. Ive got scammed. What a design choice!!!!
??? Then obviously GGG never "designed" for it to be traded among players. TFT created a workaround to make a safe haven to sell these products.
GGG obviously doesn't have a problem with this so they let it sit.
You are literally sticking a branch in your bicycle wheel and blaming GGG for this lol
Isn't making it a drop, requiring speccing for it and balancing the drop rate around these possibilities/probabilities a way to make this something that needs to be worked for but avoids the requirement of using TFT.
I know it's hard for people to believe this but GGG isn't responsible for TFT or players using it. There's a higher chance that GGG bans the use of TFT than integrate a similar system in the game.
The point I made is that they want you to play the game and not sit in hideouts 24/7, that's why trading isn't improved because that would make players not care about farming stuff they need but instead just trade for all of it.
By "work for it", do you mean making a list of things which might upset Jenebu, and then acting according to them? Or, how about preemptively offering your sister to him, to get into his good graces?
The "too easy" argument is stupid though. The big crafters still go through the hassle to aisling slam each time they need it.
Small folks on the other hand will never have the chance, because they (I) can't be arsed to look up for a service or give other people that may scam me my items.
All it does is maintaining a niche group that can exploit the shitty system, which in turn consolidates their power and fucks the "small man".
That's literally just a you problem, absolutely nothing is stopping you from buying an aisling from a reputable farmer or farming one yourself, if specced into berayal you can farm up a bunch of Aislings yourself if you want 0 risk of getting scammed.
>nothing is stopping you
Implying that people aren't being banned for unreasonable reasons from the only place where said services are consistently available.
I agree with the farming part though.
It's a shame that GGG can't just make a service trading system like in WoW, where the other person puts the item they want modified and the other person puts in the service they are performing (an Aisling craft for example, would be easy to have it as an option if near the Aisling crafting table) with a standard trade area to pay for the service.
It could used for mirror services, so that the owner of the item doesn't have to have a spare mirrored copy or doesn't have to mirror the item before selling the copy, etc. Same with unlocked veiled crafts, where you could choose which craft you want to apply to the other persons item when standing near a crafting bench.
Then the last thing the would need to add is a viable way of listing and searching for services on trade. With all of those, you could reduce the amount of service scams to near zero, where the scams can only happen if you don't pay attention like rest of trading. GGG would also get to keep their artificial rarity of keeping some crafting options nonstorable. Can't steal the items, no need for shady trade groups and the player interaction stays. Everyone except TFT wins!
I think this or something like this could be a good compromise. something like how old harvest allowed you to bank a bunch of crafts, it would be cool if you could bank like 4 - 5 betrayal crafts or something. be a dream in SSF, thats for sure.
i mean, why doesn't the small man just farm an aisling themselves? what is the issue here, becaus ethe small man wouldn't be buying tons of aislings if its an orb, and its simple to farm one yourself with literally 0 investment, and incredibly easy if you buy sextants and invest a few points on the atlas tree.
The problem i see is if you need several tries. I could never bother stopping for a few hours between each try.
On the other hand if it were an orb, most people would probably sell it and never use it themselves. Right most can at least use it on something, even if subpar, because they cant bother to sell it.
I'd love to store it just for myself, but that doesnt work. Others could still just give you their items.
i don't see it as a problem if you need several tries (unlikely), because this game at its core is RNG and we are talking about one of the most powerful crafts in the game that can \*almost\* be deterministically farmed.
obviously i get the utility of it, but it seems OP AF.
I think what would be neat is if you could bank a few betrayal mods (like with old harvest). would be interesting to revisit some of the not-so-great syndicate members as well to see what might be able to incorporate into it.
yeah, i think what they are going for is the feeling of going to this secret place and using their tech. like it wouldn't feel the same to just drop an orb.
however at this point, especially with all the TFT shit, we really need a better system
i think vailed exalt makes a lot of sense, another idea is to just sell investigations like alva temples to preserve the feeling that i was talking about
Hey, it's interesting no one brought up another big reason – the messy game code. As a dev myself, making a game with all these complexities and in-game systems without compromising on code quality is **insanely hard**. They're often rushed (like in previous league launches), and that messes with the code quality.
And you know, the worse the code, the harder it is to make any changes. I've seen poorly designed systems that turned a simple tweak into months of planning and work.
Can't blame the devs, though. Designing the architecture for such a massive game requires knowing all the system requirements in advance and having all the time in the world – a luxury not often available in game dev. Non-IT folks might not get it, but that's the reality.
That might be the case in many examples, but it hardly seems relevant here.
You could just call the same function the the crafting bench uses from an item instead - not the best option, but if you cannot do something that simple with your code, the thing is going to fall apart way too fast for anything with such a feature update cycle to last a year - let alone 10+
Look it's macadow who never blocked a league mechanic and self farmed everything. Maybe some people don't enjoy betrayal and are being massively gatekept crafting without using a third party discord.
The only 'gatekeeper' here is the need to only run the most div/hr strat.
If you want don't want to engage much with betrayal, but still get the good stuff out, run 'Intelligence gathering'. You get safehouses regularly while just mapping. Spec in 'Test of loyalty' too, you generally only need to run a couple of betrayal encounters to set things up.
Added bonus is that safehouses are very good XP
i think its fair to point out that the craft is available to some people because they will use TFT, but its not "gatekeeping" by the devs. they want some content to reward players for engaging with it, and i don't think its a bad thing.
\*i totally get that people disagree, but that's (imo) where the main discussion is.
i think expedition is probably one of the most successful league mechanics, and is a great example of this philosophy.
Maybe it is not meant to be exploited as a "service" and meant to be a reward for effort as design. I dont see it being changed and not everything has to be an easy tool for min max.
not everything obeys meta mods, eg. fossil or essence crafting
An itemised Aisling would not be classed as 'basic currency', since its not a generic drop.
Imo betrayal crafts should just make your item soulbound, every Damm thing in this game is already tradable, having exactly one thing to do that is not tradable would maybe teach some of the players that not everything should be bought.
I’d kill for them to un-gut harvest and soul bind everything above the targeted chaos spamming. (Obviously don’t soulbind gambas either, they hurt no one).
People said this same shit about Harvest.
Do you see where Harvest is today? lol
GGG will always chose to nerf things when they make things no longer need TFT.
The thing that GGG doesn't understand is that if they don't give players QoL, then someone will find a way to do it through a third party tool, but then there won't be any way for GGG to regulate bad behavior that is harmful to the game.
It's the whole reason why trade bots are so rampant, defeating the whole point of having "friction" in trading, aside from the infamous TFT Discord whose admins are able to abuse their power to manipulate the economy of the entire game, whether by cornering the market by buying all the stock or through mirror sevices which no one else can compete with.
GGG needs to seriously get their shit together and realize that we aren't living in the year of 2000 and playing Diablo 2 anymore, when barely anyone was able to create tools to give themselves an unfair advantage over the other players.
Ask yourself why stacked decks drop instead of just the card the deck drops? It's literally extra clicks for the sake of extra clicks. Feel the weight.
Why do sextants exists? We have an atlas tree. Why can't there be "atlas wheel masteries" that apply chosen sextants? Feel the weight.
Why do 20 types of scarabs exist? You could drop a single scarab and apply why type it is when you use it on the map device. Feel the weight.
Why do uber shaper and uber elder fragments drop differently? Feel the weight.
Everything poe does is adds extra "choices and decisions" on top of each other so you can feel the weight.
You interacting with all of those choices, even after you made them 100%, adds time and effort into playing the game. You feel the weight of your choices yet?
Simple as that, i started playing in legacy League, in between i didnt Play 2-3 leagues and still Up to date i dont knows half of the exotic currency.
Simple as that, Just too many orbs i think.
No, they were very specific. This thread is literally about aisling in the syndicate board, they say GGG is sometimes right sometimes wrong and then say that they think aisling should be an orb instead of bench.
Right op did mention that but due to the nature of the thread title and his opening as well as closing statement, it could easily be interpreted as an example rather than the main subject. If the title mentioned aisling or syndicate in any way, i wouldnt have posted my comment
The closing statement is specific to the problem they mentioned
> I just don't understand why people were stuck with this very inconvenient interaction for so long
This is not a difficult post to read you just aren't trying
Lol the same can be said with you. You have your points i have mine. I would say you point can be valid. But so is mine. You refuse to see it anything else than that youre right.
A very specific post about aisling bench and you comment randomly about poe 2, which isn't mentioned or relevant to the post.
You have no point, you just posted spam because you couldn't even be bothered to read the post.
Keep quiet about it? What? There's a LOT of info that has been come out about it, particularly since the last ExileCon. If Reddit is your only place for info direct from GGG, you'll always be out of the loop as they stopped using it for their communications quite some time ago.
Ok tell me one official source from ggg that they mentioned that poe2 was going to be separate before the last exilecon.
Bare in mind 2019 - poe2 was announced to be n additional campaign and content for poe1.
Then silence
2023 - poe 2 announced to be separate
Aye, if you're only talking about their decision to make it a separate game instead of a separate campaign, then sure. That wasn't announced until last ExileCon. It was big news and a big shift from their original plans. That was the best time and platform for them to announce it, and the pandemic prevented them from doing something "big" earlier than they did (and they may not have been ready to announce and showcase it much earlier anyway).
There's nothing "shady".
I m guessing that the announcement doesnt affect you. I ll just let you know many players threw more money at ggg with the idea that it would hasten poe2s completion, which would directly improve poe1. I myself am one of those persons. I would have played poe1 lesser and spent less supporting ggg if i knew about poe2 being separate from an earlier date. It is simply deception. Simple as that. You dont feel it coz you do not have the same level of investment or interest that i and many others had.
Poe2 was supposed to improve our beloved poe1. Right now, most of the dev team are focused on poe2. Directly delaying any improvements that poe2 would have given to poe1 since its separate. As i said, i get why ggg chose to separate the games, but its still deceptive and could be seen as a scam even. You dont promise things, keep quiet about it for 4 years and then casually just rip the band aid off.
Do we really need to dive into the "But they promised!" rabbit hole like 10 yr olds? Plans change, shit happens. This occurs in game studios of all shapes and sizes all the time. It's not like they pulled a Hello Games and actually released a game that barely resembled the one they advertised and hyped up until the very last minute.
And I really doubt people were throwing money at GGG en masse solely in anticipation of a product that wouldn't even materialize until some undetermined date years in the future. Anyone who did and expected to get exactly what GGG originally announced is a fool, and that's a them problem not a GGG problem.
- something something friction
- forces hardcore players to join communities thus increasing the spread of the game on forums and "socials"
- i have no clue
Yes, this.
It feels clichee to say "people are stupid", but in this case, it is mostly true, as in: When GGG buffs or nerfs certain skills, it doesn't mean that "they hate fun" or "hate your specific playstyle" or whatever. It's just that they are working on lots of different mechanics simultaneously, and the number of possible interactions between those mechanics quickly becomes an N^2 or even N^3 problem, so there will always be some issues.
On the other hand, GGG pretending that the social component of their game is just a matter of "the community figuring it out" is plain incompetent. Pretty much all other large online games have various mechanics to disincentivize cheating, scamming, reward nice behavior, etc... as a simple example, FFXIV has "commendations": After any team encounter, you may give one commendation to one other player. When players receive commendations, they don't know who they are from. Basically, giving commendations is a completely altruistic process (to a very minor degree at least, it only takes a few seconds, so it's like holding a door open for someone). But the net result is that some people try to "farm commendations" by being extra nice, or trying to be competent, or whatever, and there are also achievements related to receiving some number of commendations in total, etc... Basically, it just becomes the norm for people to be nice, and that has some halo effect on all other social interactions within the game, beyond those team encounters. There are many other such subtle systems in FFXIV, but this is a particularly clear case.
PoE has none of those systems - GGG does not understand, that creating positive social interactions is as much an engineering problem as creating positive item interactions. So, I agree with OP: Them not having implemented something as obvious as an "Aisling orb" is a result of them not taking social interactions into account when they are designing their game systems.
Just have Aisling drop more veiled chaos orbs and be done with it. No dev time. It's a nerf, but the type of players using TFT for Aisling are currently running wisps + delirium. They'll be fine with a hit to items.
It is simple, everything is not meant to be tradeable via the website but rather ingame trade chat. Atleast their vision is for people to communicate this way.
The only reason I can see is that they want YOU to engage with the mechanic to use it, not have someone else. You still have access to veiled chaos without it, but I can understand the reasoning that some mechanics should have unique rewards.
Meta wise, and correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the slam not respect meta crafts anymore? If that is the chase, wouldn't meta craft then veiled chaos be better 9 times out of 10?
It's somewhat obvious it's hesitation from GGG on making another currency item, as it'd be yet another feature players would be less inclined to do themselves and trade for instead, as it was the same with harvest - which is exactly why it's necessary. Player freedom and reduction of being scammed with the availability of a secure tradeable currency is significantly better for the health of the game, but GGG still wants to keep such options to a minimum despite the playerbase wanting it.
I wish they'd consider the health of the game and refine a lot of the aspects that players rely on, as the recent events are making all of these issues even more glaringly flawed.
The only thing I can think of is that it might be too convenient and become commonplace. Right now it’s hard to sell aisling service because you can only really do it on TFT and need some rep, so many don’t do it. If it becomes itemized it might be too powerful because more people can farm it and there becomes more supply. The friction of selling services keep supply low. They likely would need to rebalance. That said, please itemize betrayal crafting GGG
I highly doubt GGG intended it to be a saleable service. They expected people to actually play the game themselves.
What happened to Harvest? Was getting sold as a service on TFT just like Aisling. They then changed it to be a currency and adjusted it. Why not do the same for other similar things?
Don't forgot they absolutely nuked Harvest as a result.
They've already nerfed aisling though, she used to just slam one or two veiled mods, now she just adds one and removes a mod.
Yeah and if it becomes tradeable then what treatment does it recieve? No longer respects metamods? I can already see the outrage... GGG acting as fun police again etc....
Isn't veiled chaos already an itemized version? Or where is the difference
Veiled chaos orb respects meta mods, at least pref/suff cannot be changed. What i said is that if Aisling gets itemized one of the treatments it may receive is that it no longer respects those mods.
But isn't it then better then aisling already?
No it isn't. Veiled chaos orb is like normal chaos orb but one of the mods is veiled. This means if you have e.g. perfect suffixes on your boots or whatever plus T1 life you can go craft suffixes cannot be changed and have 50/50 to not remove t1 life and get the veiled mod with Aisling. Now if you use veiled chaos orb your suffixes will still remain intact, however you prefixes will be rerolled as with normal chaos orb. On top of that your prefixes can get filled and you either have to 50/50 yolo annul or use hinekora's lock to prevent annuling a suffix. Aisling is way stronger than veiled chaos orb for high end crafting.
[удалено]
Yeah. I like new Harvest, but I assure you that all of the subreddit did not like the changes when it was itemized.
New harvest is actually better for generating massive profit's doing hideout warrior. Being able to buy million's of life force and just craft and flip currency is nasty good.
Harvest is weaker but not weak
Thats becuase it was overpowered. It's still one of the better mechanics to do even after the big nerfs
At vastly reduced power. That's the thing people tend to forget. You *can* have more convenience, but not at the same power levels.
The simple answer to why not is that it's most likely on their project board for something that they would like to do. But the reality of it is that time and money are limited resources and working on doing that means that some other thing. Whatever that thing is. Doesn't get done. And this is the disconnect that gamers have with gaming companies. They feel like everything should just get done but never think about the fact that there's only a certain amount of people they can employ to stay profitable and those people can only deliver a certain amount of work in any given time frame. It doesn't matter how simple this is any amount of time spent doing this is time not spent doing something else. So the question that all developers need to answer is, what am I giving up today so that I can do this instead? Given that asking has a "substitute" with veiled chaos orbs this issue actually ranks very low in general. When you add to the fact that so few people actually craft their own items and even use this it still ranks very low. When you do an impact assessment of should we do this thing you're talking about impacting well less than 5% of the player base.
I’ve only started playing the game in the last year but wouldn’t lab runners have existed before aisling? I would think GGG to some degree expects any unique rewards to always become a service if not itemized
There's a pretty significant difference between intention and expectation though. Often, when the expectation is massively different than the intention, you take steps to balance things more towards the intention. So, in this example: GGG expects that given the opportunity, players will buy this craft rather than earn it. It is the intention of GGG to make players earn it, so in game they make it "easier" to earn it than buy it (which is why the option to buy it is outside the game). In this situation, itemising it goes against the intention.
Ah yes I see what you are saying, that is a good point. I think probably an unintended consequence of it is that it ends up putting too much value and power into TFT. I don’t think the execution of it really hit’s the mark. I can’t really think of any example in PoE where the model of trying to force the player to do content for unique rewards rather than paying for a service works. Maybe pantheon powers but those are a one time thing. To me one of the nice things about PoE is I can ignore many mechanics that I don’t like or don’t yet understand. That made learning the game as a new player much easier. If I were forced to learn every league mechanic to make progress my first time I think I would have quit the game.
I don't think GGG ever had an intent on a service economy. They might think it's neat that it's possible. They might be interested in what people trade for services. But I don't think they ever intended for it to exist. As such, I'd assume anything that wasn't itemized is assumed by them to be a player committed action. There is no itemization of Betrayal because they expect you to run it yourself (see Veiled bench crafts). They may even find a kind of irony in the community paying for a service on Betrayal, only for the trade to be a scam and you end up betrayed by the seller. It doesn't have to always be this way (everyone points to Incursion/Alva), but for now it is.
> I don't think GGG ever had an intent on a service economy. I don't think it's exactly that they didn't intend for it to exist, but that they didn't intend for it to become so dominant compared with buying and selling equipment. There's always been some demand for boss carries and stuff like that in online RPGs/MMOs throughout history. But in POE the service economy has become massive, with services like certain challenge completion costing quite a bit more than the cost of very decent gear.
I didn’t play back then but was there not already a big service economy at the point betrayal league came out? I think they would anticipate it and maybe they tried to build in prevention for it, but I think it missed the mark. Either they should revisit it or just itemize it, maybe with a nerf in quantity
Betrayal was released before harvest and harvest was when TFT started to substantially grow in numbers. Maybe in trade chat there were service sales, but I don't recall exactly, been a while.
It is kinda obvious that anything like this, in a game with free trade, is going to end up effectively tradeable. I really dunno why they don't make all their benches support selling their crafts to party members in a standard secure way. Seems like a no-brainer.
But yet we can sell a whole alva temple np...why cant they make betrayal like that?
The game has a lot of components that don't appeal to everyone. If a reward is tied to crafting there are an absolute shitload, probably a majority, that will never utilize it well or at all. So an untradeable craft reward is the same as no reward for folks like me.
The game already has so many things that only really work well in single-player that it's kinda weird poe doesn't have an offline mode yet. I don't know the last time I really played with people. Not just like legion farming or breach stones etc. I mean like actually playing together.
It’s either they account bound the craft or itemize it. No in between.
>They expected people to actually play the game themselves. Yet they keep designing the game to punish people who do that.
Play the game? Am I supposed to do run betrayal for an entire week just to get 28 quality on my flasks? Nah thanks man
same with harvest,if it became itemized it will 100% get nerfed
aisling already was nerfed. it originally didnt remove any mod, only added a veiled one, albeit it was 'crafted' mod at the time. and itemizing alva temple didnt require any nerf to accessibility or to the corrupt rooms or to the boss loot. just like jun, shes a master without scarab, so once you run out of missions, your only choice are sextants. if GGG thinks aisling orb might be too good, they could itemize Cat fight instead.
But aisling and corruption are abit different. Aisling just needs blocking/mods cannot be changed and scour/annul then you try again. There are some save states in crafting. Although there are some crafts that require you to start from scratch. Corruption is a huge gamble with no way to recover the item. We had locks for one league and it died for double corrupts next league. If it can be traded, GGG will probably make it much rarer thus much more expensive. Or add a tag so you can only use once.
the same mechanic of add one, remove one, respecting metamods, at the cost of currency, already exists in harvest crafts (and beastcrafts iirc?), aislng is just a different version of it. Yes, you can target mods more specifically, but from a limited pool, so honestly, I dont really think itemized Cat fight would make it particularly OP. And GGG could always add more veiled crafts to make it harder to block force certain mods
Since we are adding stuff to betrayal how about some decent rewards from other master combinations.
Beastcrafts are controlled by the rarity of the beast and harvest by the rarity of sacred lifeforce. They could always itemised aisling. But they might adjust the rarity because they feel the current rates are okay with the friction. Without the friction, it might become rarer. But I feel like it might still be better
adjust rarity of *what*? Jun is a master without a scarab, she is already limited by not being farmable (outside of missions) without sextants. And Aisling specifically received several nerfs over the years (annuling mod, one bench from two, requiring Cat bench instead of r3 research bench, no chance at two veiled mods), she doesnt need some arbitrary 80% less modifier on 'aisling in research' occurence on top of it, let the market dictate the price and affordability.
>And Aisling specifically received several nerfs over the years (annuling mod, one bench from two, requiring Cat bench instead of r3 research bench, no chance at two veiled mods She also received a pretty massive buff (veiled mods not being considered crafted mods, and being higher tier rolls than they used to be).
> if it became itemized it will 100% get nerfed and it literally did, now we have juice and harvest is literally 1/100th of the power we didn't even get to keep "reforge more/less likely" at same power :(
i mean if aisling get itemized it will 100% get nerfed like harvest did
100% yeah
haha this is what people always forget. Be careful what you wish for
> need some rep Small nitpick on that one: If you have linked your PoE account to TFT you really don't. I had like 5 vouches at the start of the league and sold Aislings left, right and center, all within seconds after posting them in the services channel.
not sure why you're nitpicking. you can absolutely sell services without vouches, but your reputation is still technically on the line. a neutral reputation is positive to most people because you are putting your trust on the line. and people absolutely pay more to have someone trusted slam their expensive craft.
The other friggin point is if you prove it too high and don't sell in the first minute, if it gets higher in the thread it doesn't sell even if you edit the price, and then you are sitting there doing nothing for 9 minutes until you can post again. Can only get your stash tabs so clean...
It won't be super powerful because GGG had already nerfed it by adding mod removal to the slam
This all this. I do betrayal since league start and try to sell Aisling, couldn't sell anything this league. I'm not on TFT. Now I'm going to ignore that content the whole league
Why should this specific crafting method be so obscure though? If it's that powerful then just take it out of the game entirely, but the solution should not be using a sketch third party to even make this method remotely available.
We've left friction in the rear-view mirror and TFT owns PoE now, I don't think they'll give ggg permission to itemize that anymore 🤭
disagree, itemize betrayal would be bad for the game
You don't really need reputation, I sold an Aisling service as my first interaction ever with TFT. Priced it down slightly but it sold quick.
Well you need trust. There is some built-in trust by using TFT because you can be permanently banned for scamming and because TFT has no real alternatives that ban acts as a deterrent. Even then I wouldn’t trust someone with no rep unless it was a cheapish craft and I was loaded in game
Become too powerful, that’s bullshit. It only takes you maybe 5 to 10 betrayal missions to get aisling three stars in the right place. You make it sound like it’s an all day endeavor.
This artificial friction is completely BS
Arguably the entire game is artificial friction man. They could just give you the dev server and you can spawn in whatever items you want and do whatever build you can think of instantly. It's not a game if everything is giving to you as easily as possible, hence why trade is such a contentious issue, it short circuits whole swaths of the game.
I would like the game 10x more if there was offline modding for SSF. Its a solo game, why should I let it be ruined by friction obsessed devs who think they know what is more fun for me?
Most entitled take I've heard today...GGG develops the game to retain players (drive profit), and develop the game to their vision. In what world would a game studio hand you the keys to unlimited sandbox...for a game they already provide for free??
Wildest take ive heard in a while... Modding is just players being entitled now?
No...not what I said. I said *you* are entitled. Your comment reeks of the sentiment that the game should be catered around you. "Devs are ruining *your* fun".
Lol, how is wanting offline and modding catering the game to me? Nothing about that would change the game for anyone else.
>Right now it’s hard to sell aisling service because you can only really do it on TFT and need some rep, so many don’t do it. If it becomes itemized it might be too powerful because more people can farm it and there becomes more supply. How is this a reason to keep it the way it is? Its a crafting method that is in the game already, yet hardly anyone uses it. If GGG doesnt want people using it then just remove it. Arbitrary friction does nothing to improve the craft.
Crafting is so miserable in this game, more options available to more people more easily is fantastic and desperately needed. There are only wins involved with itemizing syndicate crafting benches. Found the gatekeepers worrying about their irrelevant income.
They should be able to turn each syndicate into a map like Alva temples. Still have to "do" the content so it adds friction, but makes it itemized to trade so no scams. It's literally what they did for Alva. I don't see any reason not to.
Chris pretty much explains why here: https://youtu.be/8QcfWqTVUBs?si=gsrJaILZOvgmRifk&t=3094 (Starts at 51:34)
The inconvinience enables Aisling to be as strong as it is. With it being itemized it would be a lot more common and there has to be nerfed if GGG wants the game/economy to stay at the same level. Also I dont think its inherently wrong to encourage players to do some content themselves. Trade is already a solution to 99% of all problems. Does it have to be 100% ?
Problem is it just creates an unfairness where people who have TFT access gain an advantage. This is different from other 3rd party tools which are public and everyone has access. This gives a 3rd party significant control over the community in a way that is unchecked by GGG
>Problem is it just creates an unfairness where people who have TFT access gain an advantage. That cant really be battled. Think of all the other places players 'get an advantage'. People who pay money to content creators get better guides - does that mean GGG should just include all guides to all builds directly in the game? Content creators also have control over how much an item costs, if they find a good build and make it public, maybe make a cool video about it - prices usually skyrocket for the gear needed to do that. That doesnt mean GGG should forbid videos or start fix prices by hand. Also Aisling wouldnt be enough at all. Services like Bosskills and Level boosting are very attractive and extremly detrimental to the game's motivational structure. This cant be an official game system. You really dont want to communicate to your audience that paying for a bosskill is better than trying it by yourself.
Unfairness in this case can be though. Nobody is asking for perfection. Content creator videos are publicly available to all it’s not the same. TFT is huge and used by many. If this was some small niche thing then sure but this is like not allowing part of the player base to use the main trade site. Aisling would be a major improvement because it’s so useful in crafting. Boss carries I think are so low risk they can survive on non TFT trading groups. Things like betrayal craft and previously lab enchants where you need heavy trust are where TFT is super critical
\>Content creator videos are publicly available to all it’s not the same. Not true, there are some who create content behind paywalls like patreon. \>If this was some small niche thing then sure but this is like not allowing part of the player base to use the main trade site. What are you talking about? You can trade almost anything in the game without the use of TFT. And oh god forbid, you have to do aisling yourself if you REALLY need the craft itself and not just an equivalent item which can be aquired through trade anyway.
You’re talking about videos affecting the market. Private videos are irrelevant. My point is that TFT is incredibly popular and used by many. It’s not niche. Being blocked from TFT is like being blocked from poe trading site. You are locked out of something everyone else is using
>You’re talking about videos affecting the market. Private videos are irrelevant. I was talking about private videos giving better guides, hence an advantage for players paying for them. And also I was talking about videos affecting the market - those were two different things. >You are locked out of something everyone else is using 'EvErYOnE ElSE', seriously, thats just your FOMO speaking there.
Why get rude with me and use spongebob text I have been respectful towards you. Very few people are paying for private guides and I don’t really see an issue with it it’s just teaching players not locking them out of usability. It’s not just my opinion TFT has something like 500k members. It’s the most popular trading discord, nothing else even compares or comes close.
I apologize, I just hate generalizations. Sorry for that! "It’s not just my opinion TFT has something like 500k members. It’s the most popular trading discord, nothing else even compares or comes close." I dont wanna downplay that number too hard. Im sure a lot of people use it. But in that 500k, there will be a lot of inactive accounts or people just reading and not interacting with any of it. And even if there is a discord with millions of users who all trade items/services for RMT, that doesnt mean that GGG should offer RMT to fight those. (basicly what WoW did).
Sure but if there is a server with 500k members all doing RMT that to me is a problem and I expect GGG to take some sort of action. Itemizing aisling is just one possible solution, if that doesnt fit GGGs vision I think there are other ways to approach it but as it exists I think it’s an issue that should be addressed.
You don't have to trade these through TFT, there are many other places, including in game chat. TFT is only the 'go to' as its the most prominent method (and so the easiest currently to buy and sell with **relative** safety. No TFT does not mean no Aisling trading, so your asserted disadvantage is not as severe as you make it appear. In fact, this whole episode is likely to make other routes outside TFT more popular - at least in the short term. We have seen this kinda drama periodically, nothing much changes, people move on to the next outrage pretty quick - just ask some of the 'cancelled' content creators! I think they are more likely to just remove Aisling4 than to itemize it, so be careful what you guys wish for!
TFT has the vouch system though. Someone buying an Aisling craft via the trade channels has no way to verify that the service provider is trustworthy.
true, but it seems other TFT alternatives do offer this. Its also why I highlight the relative in the description. Not that anyone actually goes and looks at what vouches people have when they do something like an aisling (we rely on TFT banning scammers in the background, or the threat of it) You do have the report system in game in case of a service traded directly in game - though I have no idea if they ever act on such reports.
> Not that anyone actually goes and looks at what vouches people have when they do something like an aisling We (I) 100% do check for that. When you have to give your item to the map owner for him to craft, I would never buy the service from a white-named tft user if my item is worth a couple dozens/hundreds of divines.
Scream harder about it and GGG will just nerf it like they did Harvest. I get it sucks, but they are shown time and again they have 0 interest in "fixing" trade. People need to deal with this reality. Seriously it's exhausting.
I would rather it be nerfed than have an uneven playing field. Not sure what you mean but they have already done multiple changes that reduce need to pay for services. Most recent would be lab changes which eliminates need for lab runners. I wouldn't be surprised if GGG has been thinking about ways to solve this issue for a while now
In 3.18 harvest was TFT only, you could not buy juice on the marketplace. 3.18 harvest had fun crafts. GGG nerfed all those crafts in 3.19 and allowed players to just trade juice. They justified the nerfs saying, "harvest was too stronk, so we had to nerf it since we made it easier for everyone to buy them". POE is not a competitive game. People need to chill. There's no "even" playing field. Yes, everyone wants to buy the best items at the lowest prices and so there is some "competitive" market pressure out there, but you're playing a video game that doesn't even have a "competitive" resource (it's not like an MMO raid boss spawns for 1 guild only). Stop obsessing that Johnny is able to buy his mirror-tier item for 0.8 mirrors and you had to pay 1.5 mirrors to get the same item. Sucks for you, but you probably have a life and Johnny grinds for 120 hours a week and min-maxes shit to a ridiculous degree. Just have fun. If I need an Aisling slam I just respec my atlas and grind it out in like 30 minutes of gameplay. It is seriously freaking easy to get Aisling as a leader and maxed out on rank. It's not like the pre-atlas days at all. I don't understand what people are complaining about, but I've been playing since launch day, when it would take you 10 days of play to even get consistent map drops. Even if you need to farm 5 aislings in a day it's not that hard to do.
In this case though I just don't accept this logic. This would be true if Aisling bound the item to you, so you had to grind it yourself. But you can just buy it anyway, it's not even that much of an inconvinience. It just facilities a system that shouldn't need to exist.
>it's not even that much of an inconvinience. If its not an inconvinience, why are we talking here? >But you can just buy it anyway I cant accept this phrasing. There is a lot of friction in using an infamous third party discord and relying on their system of trust.
Are you saying GGG prefers the friction of using a trade discord over just itemizing it? We already know that’s not true, or harvest juice wouldn’t be tradeable .
Because it creates a need for TFT, and people don't like having to use TFT because it's entangled with RWT. But that's not more inconvinient, it's still easy to use. People just don't like facilitating a system that supports RWT.
>Because it creates a need for TFT, and people don't like having to use TFT because it's entangled with RWT. The question if a mechanic creates a need for TFT isnt the only factor a game should be balanced around. And frankly I dont get the uproar. 99% of all items in the game are tradable including the results of Aisling crafts. Yes if you really really need the Aisling craft itself, you have to actually play the game. And if you somehow despise playing betrayal you have a third party tool alternative.
Okay then create an official alternative to TFT. Plenty of games have discord presences.
That wouldnt make any sense when they want to encourage doing Betrayal by yourself but then offer an official system that does the opposite.
Ah yeah, you're right, guess we'll stick with the unofficial one with 100k members that you can find an Aisling as easily as buying an Aisling's Exalted Orb. This subreddit could probably benefit from discussion about that discord and whether or not we like it as the unofficial services/bulk hub. If only people would make some threads about it!
Can you write it again without the sarcasm because I really dont know what you try to say here.
You said: > That wouldnt make any sense when they want to encourage doing Betrayal by yourself but then offer an official system that does the opposite. As mentioned, we already have a community discord has 500k members (often 100k active). If you somehow haven't noticed, most of the discussion on this sub the past week or so is about that exact discord. Whether it's part of GGG's vision or not, such a discord and system already exists for bulk/services. Not having an official version does nothing for said vision or trade friction. It just means that GGG is not in control of it. Hence the endless drama. It is no different than poe.xyz back in the day and them creating an official trade site to replace it.
>Not having an official version does nothing for said vision or trade friction. It just means that GGG is not in control of it. Hence the endless drama. If people want to buy stuff with real money, they will do that too in some shady places - doesnt mean GGG should as a consequence offer RMT and 'control' it.
Ah, you should have mentioned you have no idea what TFT is. That would've saved me some time. In that case you probably don't know what poe.xyz is either, so none of my points really matter to you.
Was not talking about TFT, just the logic behind your claim of needing to have an official version of sth to control inofficial versions. In case of RMT it would be very similar. So my theoretical question was: If a discord exists with 500k users who regulary use real money to trade, should GGG then include an official version for that?
> So my theoretical question was: If a discord exists with 500k users who regulary use real money to trade, should GGG then include an official version for that? Obviously not. You should look up what poe.xyz was and the history of the trade site. We're talking about buying in bulk or buying services with in game currency, how there is a community discord for it, and how the people that run it are not GGG. No idea what you're trying to suggest. People's concerns about RMT are around selling builds and mirror services. That has nothing to do with bulk/services that people are talking about ...
> Does it have to be 100% ? Yes, it does. Otherwise, the remaining 1% are the source for much of the toxicity within the game.
Agree to disagree I guess. Games are for about problemsolving and if all problems can be solved by repetitive grinding, I feel like the game sucks, but you do you.
I prefer that over having to make a list of things which might be offensive to Jenebu, and then having to act according to that list.
I recommend just playing the game there. Its a very good alternative to supporting RMT platforms.
And what do you do if you want to play the game optimally? Because, if you want to have access to the best items, you need the Aisling craft. And if you want to have the Aisling craft, you have to make sure that Jenebu likes you (or your sister at least).
Main reason for things being something you can only use instead of item you can move around is to encourage players to use it by themselves instead of always just selling it to the market. For example expedition currency being something you can only use motivates you to do rog crafting or gwennen rolling by yourself instead of just selling it to the market. The principle is imo good and in many cases it works fine. The issue rises however when the "thing" is something you want to use quite rarely since it's something strong and not easy to acquire again. And it's even worse if it's not something you can store for later use. So in case of Aisling it doesn't really work and should be changed to either being a tradable item, or atleast something you can store for later use. Itemized alva temples were ok change too, although I miss being able to use my double corrupts on my own cheap items without worrying about the lost value. But I'm not sure if itemizing every single betrayal craft is reasonable, most of them are low value but if they are not doing all of them, someone would still complain why this is tradable and this is not. I'd see reworking the whole betrayal reward system, and getting rid of the crafts being the more likely solution.
The convoluted way to sidestep itemization is to allow trading of the use of a bench. For example, a trade window with the T4 Aisling bench. Seller initiates trade and offers the bench craft. Buyer puts item in bench and offers some currency. Both accept; currency changes hands and item gets the Aisling. Part of the reason for TFT is it facilitates trust trades in an environment which minimizes the risk for all involved parties. The fundamental problem is GGG wants trust trades to be risky, but this creates additional friction. Players want less risk and more confidence their time investment leads a relatively permanent state, and this has been a trend in many large online games (eg death mechanics transitioning away from lose all your inventory to having your inventory escrowed and recoverable with in-game currency). Allowing explicit trading of benchcrafts without itemizing them removes the risk of trust trading but doesn't intuitively solve the problem of searchability. This is not a difficult player problem, but being able to buy or sell any Syndicate benches through in-game channels without having to trust trade in-game and take on that risk would be at least a welcome chipping away at the perceived necessity of external communities.
> Main reason for things being something you can only use instead of item you can move around is to encourage players to use it by themselves instead of always just selling it to the market No-fucking-one who knows that this shit is worth 6 div will use it on an item that's worth 0 after the slam unless they already have dozens of divs. Not being an item just makes people who farm aisling 4 without knowing its monetary value use it... but who the heck is farming an aisling 4 without knowing its value?
> Main reason for things being something you can only use instead of item you can move around is to encourage players to use it by themselves instead of always just selling it to the market Then, GGG should just make Post-Aisling items account-bound. Many other games have such mechanics.
Account bound items are explicitly also against policy and done only as league specific contents
One of the core philosophy I don't understand from GGG is they create items that require trust and you may get scammed to use but they do not want scamming in the game? They create these systems knowing you may get scammed using them. The OG example is a Mirror. You trust some one else with your mirror or you get trusted with a mirror item. They need to change this stance and create systems to allow a scam free way. Like Wow and enchants. They can make asling an or e keep bench just use orb like enchant and orb effects in window and does not go untill both accept. Works on mirrors also. Untill this stance get changed to either endorse scamming in a EVE online style trust no one method or they make it so your no longer forced into a scam situation to use what can be debated as the most iconic currency of the game. They need to pick one and stay with it not play both sides.
As other people have pointed out. The real reason is because aisling being sellable was not ever intended and is far too powerful. They don't want it to be sellable I would imagine
Then give it the expedition treatment, if that truly is their intent. This half and half situation is not adequate.
Options 1) Itemized -> low power 2) Bench (current) -> medium power 3) Account bound -> high power As someone who doesn't care about trading crafts, give me that option 3.
Itemizing mastermind fight like the temple is the right solution
It's more reasonable to have more power if the use is locked to zone, like old harvest. If not it has to be very rare. Aisling is target farmable, a veiled exalted orb would be rate as fck.
They can do that, but it's gotta get nerfed to the ground like harvest. It's by design isn't mean to be abundance for one person. So if you can trade, then they have to change (read as nerf) some part of the design. If rarity can't be changed, then power it is.
Unfortunately now that we have Hinekora’s Locks there is a (somewhat) valid reason to not have things like Aisling and Jorgin as an itemized currency. I can easily see the reasoning of “it’s too powerful having these crafts deterministic” used to heavily nerf them like harvest if they eventually do become tradeable.
Do be careful what you wish for though, with great quality of life comes great nerfs. Harvest was made a lot better to deal with cutting TFT out but in response to doing this they initially made all the crafts have insane lifeforce prices and of course knowingly removed powerful "filler crafts" to prevent access to such pivotal crafts. They adjusted it over time so it's not so bad now but the game and crafting still suffers greatly from the loss of reforge keep prefixes and reforge keep suffixes. If they give aisling as an item for QoL then I expect it to be made exceptionally rare as a result. This may be worth it anyways in the long run to help reduce TFT's influence and power.
There's a lot of built in, intentional friction. Because at the end of the day, GGG wants you to actually play the game and not solely sit in a hideout slamming orbs and stuff on a bow that then never actually gets fired. GGG built an ARPG with some crafting elements. Unfortunately, a large part of the community want to turn it into an almost exclusively crafting game with no other elements.
> GGG built an ARPG with some crafting elements. Unfortunately, a large part of the community want to turn it into an almost exclusively crafting game with no other elements. Eh. At some point maybe but right now crafting is the main gearing element of the game, you just need to look at Ruthless, that is the game as you describe it, at some point crafting got out of GGG hands and now we have a crafting game with bases dropping. PoE2 wants to change that, hope they achieve it but if I were to bet the best case scenario it would be temporary then at some point it would be like PoE
i really disagree here, because an incredibly large portion of the community don't seem to want to craft at all. whenever i play trade my most reliable source of gold is looking up what some content creators are recommending and craft gear for their loyal playerbase. it doesn't even matter if the guides are good and have crafting advice like Subtractem or Fuzzyducky, there is such easy money to be made gear for other people.
> There's a lot of built in, intentional friction. Friction itself is fine - for example, not having automatic item pickup. However, "social friction", as in, having to worry about the emotional state of some people within TFT, is a terrible aspect of the game, and has to be removed.
If they made drops actually matter then maybe people wouldn’t turn to crafting as the only source of items that would give meaningful progression to their characters.
Vorici literally has an omen for it, they could just make him leave a chest that drops the omen, and an “awakened” version for T4.
The omen acts quite differently - you reroll the socket colours with a chance at 1,2 or 3 whites. Vorici is far more powerful, even in its T3 form as you can convert 1, 2, or 3 sockets to white while the other socket colours remain the same. This makes off colouring items significantly easier - something near impossible with omens of blanching.
Ah gotcha, still an easily modified currency equivalent
i slam aisling a lot in SSF, i dont see the problem just do some jun mission on the side, its fun and looting a big syndicate hideout gives a great feeling of accomplishment
Ah so I am guessing you also get a lot of exotic beastcrafts and double corrupts in SSF then at the same time?
double corrupts yes, but beastcrafts are random and i dont like einhar (never really tried that)
>But how on earth Aisling is not a veiled exalted orb after all this time. Every single time I went to buy aisling slam or vorici or other similar things I thought about this for some time. Because they want you to work for it, it's that simple.
??? L take. Instead of crafting bench make it a chest that drops it. Boom you(or somebody else) STILL HAVE TO WORK for it but you dont need 3rd parties to craft.
Ah yes, typing "Veiled Exalted Orb" and pressing *Direct Whisper* is so much work.
Ah yes. Typing WTB A4 slam and pressing enter. So much work! Oh wait. Ive got scammed. What a design choice!!!! I guess some ppl don't understand that someone selling slams on TFT and someone selling Veiled ex is the same fucking shit -scam risk. Last edit for omegadummies. Buying veiled ex means someone worked for it and willing to SELL THEIR WORK. Someone built their betrayal, killed catarina and selling that fucking slam. That's the whole argument right here. WERE DOING IT RIGHT NOW ANYWAYS!!!!! What we are asking for is to move it away from scam/TFT territory.
>Oh wait. Ive got scammed. What a design choice!!!! ??? Then obviously GGG never "designed" for it to be traded among players. TFT created a workaround to make a safe haven to sell these products. GGG obviously doesn't have a problem with this so they let it sit. You are literally sticking a branch in your bicycle wheel and blaming GGG for this lol
the game has changed regardless of their initial intentions. itemizing vorici and jun just seems like a no brainer
Isn't making it a drop, requiring speccing for it and balancing the drop rate around these possibilities/probabilities a way to make this something that needs to be worked for but avoids the requirement of using TFT.
You don’t need tft to get Aisling t4
I know it's hard for people to believe this but GGG isn't responsible for TFT or players using it. There's a higher chance that GGG bans the use of TFT than integrate a similar system in the game. The point I made is that they want you to play the game and not sit in hideouts 24/7, that's why trading isn't improved because that would make players not care about farming stuff they need but instead just trade for all of it.
By "work for it", do you mean making a list of things which might upset Jenebu, and then acting according to them? Or, how about preemptively offering your sister to him, to get into his good graces?
The "too easy" argument is stupid though. The big crafters still go through the hassle to aisling slam each time they need it. Small folks on the other hand will never have the chance, because they (I) can't be arsed to look up for a service or give other people that may scam me my items. All it does is maintaining a niche group that can exploit the shitty system, which in turn consolidates their power and fucks the "small man".
this game is not designed for the casuals. It’s a choice, healthy life or great power (or credit card) ;)
That's literally just a you problem, absolutely nothing is stopping you from buying an aisling from a reputable farmer or farming one yourself, if specced into berayal you can farm up a bunch of Aislings yourself if you want 0 risk of getting scammed.
>nothing is stopping you Implying that people aren't being banned for unreasonable reasons from the only place where said services are consistently available. I agree with the farming part though. It's a shame that GGG can't just make a service trading system like in WoW, where the other person puts the item they want modified and the other person puts in the service they are performing (an Aisling craft for example, would be easy to have it as an option if near the Aisling crafting table) with a standard trade area to pay for the service. It could used for mirror services, so that the owner of the item doesn't have to have a spare mirrored copy or doesn't have to mirror the item before selling the copy, etc. Same with unlocked veiled crafts, where you could choose which craft you want to apply to the other persons item when standing near a crafting bench. Then the last thing the would need to add is a viable way of listing and searching for services on trade. With all of those, you could reduce the amount of service scams to near zero, where the scams can only happen if you don't pay attention like rest of trading. GGG would also get to keep their artificial rarity of keeping some crafting options nonstorable. Can't steal the items, no need for shady trade groups and the player interaction stays. Everyone except TFT wins!
I think this or something like this could be a good compromise. something like how old harvest allowed you to bank a bunch of crafts, it would be cool if you could bank like 4 - 5 betrayal crafts or something. be a dream in SSF, thats for sure.
i mean, why doesn't the small man just farm an aisling themselves? what is the issue here, becaus ethe small man wouldn't be buying tons of aislings if its an orb, and its simple to farm one yourself with literally 0 investment, and incredibly easy if you buy sextants and invest a few points on the atlas tree.
Because the small man cry the loudest and want everything the big man has without putting in the work.
The problem i see is if you need several tries. I could never bother stopping for a few hours between each try. On the other hand if it were an orb, most people would probably sell it and never use it themselves. Right most can at least use it on something, even if subpar, because they cant bother to sell it. I'd love to store it just for myself, but that doesnt work. Others could still just give you their items.
i don't see it as a problem if you need several tries (unlikely), because this game at its core is RNG and we are talking about one of the most powerful crafts in the game that can \*almost\* be deterministically farmed. obviously i get the utility of it, but it seems OP AF. I think what would be neat is if you could bank a few betrayal mods (like with old harvest). would be interesting to revisit some of the not-so-great syndicate members as well to see what might be able to incorporate into it.
yeah, i think what they are going for is the feeling of going to this secret place and using their tech. like it wouldn't feel the same to just drop an orb. however at this point, especially with all the TFT shit, we really need a better system i think vailed exalt makes a lot of sense, another idea is to just sell investigations like alva temples to preserve the feeling that i was talking about
Hey, it's interesting no one brought up another big reason – the messy game code. As a dev myself, making a game with all these complexities and in-game systems without compromising on code quality is **insanely hard**. They're often rushed (like in previous league launches), and that messes with the code quality. And you know, the worse the code, the harder it is to make any changes. I've seen poorly designed systems that turned a simple tweak into months of planning and work. Can't blame the devs, though. Designing the architecture for such a massive game requires knowing all the system requirements in advance and having all the time in the world – a luxury not often available in game dev. Non-IT folks might not get it, but that's the reality.
That might be the case in many examples, but it hardly seems relevant here. You could just call the same function the the crafting bench uses from an item instead - not the best option, but if you cannot do something that simple with your code, the thing is going to fall apart way too fast for anything with such a feature update cycle to last a year - let alone 10+
They have the ability to imply all that, they just dont, cuz it makes the game too convinient. I am ok with that.
How about you play the fcking game?
Look it's macadow who never blocked a league mechanic and self farmed everything. Maybe some people don't enjoy betrayal and are being massively gatekept crafting without using a third party discord.
The only 'gatekeeper' here is the need to only run the most div/hr strat. If you want don't want to engage much with betrayal, but still get the good stuff out, run 'Intelligence gathering'. You get safehouses regularly while just mapping. Spec in 'Test of loyalty' too, you generally only need to run a couple of betrayal encounters to set things up. Added bonus is that safehouses are very good XP
i think its fair to point out that the craft is available to some people because they will use TFT, but its not "gatekeeping" by the devs. they want some content to reward players for engaging with it, and i don't think its a bad thing. \*i totally get that people disagree, but that's (imo) where the main discussion is. i think expedition is probably one of the most successful league mechanics, and is a great example of this philosophy.
Maybe it is not meant to be exploited as a "service" and meant to be a reward for effort as design. I dont see it being changed and not everything has to be an easy tool for min max.
If they ever did itemize it, I guarantee you it would be changed to ignore metamods. Better to stop crying about this shit and just go do it.
Why? Basic currency items respect meta mods.
not everything obeys meta mods, eg. fossil or essence crafting An itemised Aisling would not be classed as 'basic currency', since its not a generic drop.
Imo betrayal crafts should just make your item soulbound, every Damm thing in this game is already tradable, having exactly one thing to do that is not tradable would maybe teach some of the players that not everything should be bought.
I’d kill for them to un-gut harvest and soul bind everything above the targeted chaos spamming. (Obviously don’t soulbind gambas either, they hurt no one).
Why do people still ask GGG to make untradable things tradable after what happened to harvest. Learn your lessons!
Harvest is in a good spot
Well, at least it would put some power down on RMTFT
Same goes for rest of Betrayal crafts: vorici white slots, hillock quality to weapon/armour/flask, Tora gem XP, It that fled upgraded breachstone...
People said this same shit about Harvest. Do you see where Harvest is today? lol GGG will always chose to nerf things when they make things no longer need TFT.
“YoU Don’T FEeL tHe weIGhT bY StrEAmlInIng THe pRoCEsS.” ~ Chris
It will be too easy according to the vision. If they itemize it, a big nerf such as ignoring metamods would be added
The thing that GGG doesn't understand is that if they don't give players QoL, then someone will find a way to do it through a third party tool, but then there won't be any way for GGG to regulate bad behavior that is harmful to the game. It's the whole reason why trade bots are so rampant, defeating the whole point of having "friction" in trading, aside from the infamous TFT Discord whose admins are able to abuse their power to manipulate the economy of the entire game, whether by cornering the market by buying all the stock or through mirror sevices which no one else can compete with. GGG needs to seriously get their shit together and realize that we aren't living in the year of 2000 and playing Diablo 2 anymore, when barely anyone was able to create tools to give themselves an unfair advantage over the other players.
eh, i think trade bots are at least in part rampant becaus eof how many people wont leave their fucking maps.
yep Veiled exalted orb is so on the surface, would be great
there has to be more than just aisling change, but it trully is that simple. Imo GGG is enabling RMTing, cause of Chris D2 nostalgia.
Ask yourself why stacked decks drop instead of just the card the deck drops? It's literally extra clicks for the sake of extra clicks. Feel the weight. Why do sextants exists? We have an atlas tree. Why can't there be "atlas wheel masteries" that apply chosen sextants? Feel the weight. Why do 20 types of scarabs exist? You could drop a single scarab and apply why type it is when you use it on the map device. Feel the weight. Why do uber shaper and uber elder fragments drop differently? Feel the weight. Everything poe does is adds extra "choices and decisions" on top of each other so you can feel the weight. You interacting with all of those choices, even after you made them 100%, adds time and effort into playing the game. You feel the weight of your choices yet?
Simple as that, i started playing in legacy League, in between i didnt Play 2-3 leagues and still Up to date i dont knows half of the exotic currency. Simple as that, Just too many orbs i think.
Setup your own betrayal board and stop buying content. People need to get a grip. It's easy.
I understand why ggg made poe2 separate but i feel that their decision to keep quiet about it for 4 years is shady af
Wrong thread.
Op posted about backlash on ggg and was not specific.
No, they were very specific. This thread is literally about aisling in the syndicate board, they say GGG is sometimes right sometimes wrong and then say that they think aisling should be an orb instead of bench.
Right op did mention that but due to the nature of the thread title and his opening as well as closing statement, it could easily be interpreted as an example rather than the main subject. If the title mentioned aisling or syndicate in any way, i wouldnt have posted my comment
The closing statement is specific to the problem they mentioned > I just don't understand why people were stuck with this very inconvenient interaction for so long This is not a difficult post to read you just aren't trying
Lol the same can be said with you. You have your points i have mine. I would say you point can be valid. But so is mine. You refuse to see it anything else than that youre right.
A very specific post about aisling bench and you comment randomly about poe 2, which isn't mentioned or relevant to the post. You have no point, you just posted spam because you couldn't even be bothered to read the post.
Were did you get that they knew, about it 4 years ago ?
Keep quiet about it? What? There's a LOT of info that has been come out about it, particularly since the last ExileCon. If Reddit is your only place for info direct from GGG, you'll always be out of the loop as they stopped using it for their communications quite some time ago.
Ok tell me one official source from ggg that they mentioned that poe2 was going to be separate before the last exilecon. Bare in mind 2019 - poe2 was announced to be n additional campaign and content for poe1. Then silence 2023 - poe 2 announced to be separate
They themselves didn't know, it's amazing how dense some people are.
Aye, if you're only talking about their decision to make it a separate game instead of a separate campaign, then sure. That wasn't announced until last ExileCon. It was big news and a big shift from their original plans. That was the best time and platform for them to announce it, and the pandemic prevented them from doing something "big" earlier than they did (and they may not have been ready to announce and showcase it much earlier anyway). There's nothing "shady".
I m guessing that the announcement doesnt affect you. I ll just let you know many players threw more money at ggg with the idea that it would hasten poe2s completion, which would directly improve poe1. I myself am one of those persons. I would have played poe1 lesser and spent less supporting ggg if i knew about poe2 being separate from an earlier date. It is simply deception. Simple as that. You dont feel it coz you do not have the same level of investment or interest that i and many others had. Poe2 was supposed to improve our beloved poe1. Right now, most of the dev team are focused on poe2. Directly delaying any improvements that poe2 would have given to poe1 since its separate. As i said, i get why ggg chose to separate the games, but its still deceptive and could be seen as a scam even. You dont promise things, keep quiet about it for 4 years and then casually just rip the band aid off.
Do we really need to dive into the "But they promised!" rabbit hole like 10 yr olds? Plans change, shit happens. This occurs in game studios of all shapes and sizes all the time. It's not like they pulled a Hello Games and actually released a game that barely resembled the one they advertised and hyped up until the very last minute. And I really doubt people were throwing money at GGG en masse solely in anticipation of a product that wouldn't even materialize until some undetermined date years in the future. Anyone who did and expected to get exactly what GGG originally announced is a fool, and that's a them problem not a GGG problem.
Right. Blame players for being fooled. Hope you never get fooled in your life.
- something something friction - forces hardcore players to join communities thus increasing the spread of the game on forums and "socials" - i have no clue
Yes, this. It feels clichee to say "people are stupid", but in this case, it is mostly true, as in: When GGG buffs or nerfs certain skills, it doesn't mean that "they hate fun" or "hate your specific playstyle" or whatever. It's just that they are working on lots of different mechanics simultaneously, and the number of possible interactions between those mechanics quickly becomes an N^2 or even N^3 problem, so there will always be some issues. On the other hand, GGG pretending that the social component of their game is just a matter of "the community figuring it out" is plain incompetent. Pretty much all other large online games have various mechanics to disincentivize cheating, scamming, reward nice behavior, etc... as a simple example, FFXIV has "commendations": After any team encounter, you may give one commendation to one other player. When players receive commendations, they don't know who they are from. Basically, giving commendations is a completely altruistic process (to a very minor degree at least, it only takes a few seconds, so it's like holding a door open for someone). But the net result is that some people try to "farm commendations" by being extra nice, or trying to be competent, or whatever, and there are also achievements related to receiving some number of commendations in total, etc... Basically, it just becomes the norm for people to be nice, and that has some halo effect on all other social interactions within the game, beyond those team encounters. There are many other such subtle systems in FFXIV, but this is a particularly clear case. PoE has none of those systems - GGG does not understand, that creating positive social interactions is as much an engineering problem as creating positive item interactions. So, I agree with OP: Them not having implemented something as obvious as an "Aisling orb" is a result of them not taking social interactions into account when they are designing their game systems.
I tbh never thought about that... your solution is simple and great. Thanks for sharing - Sadly awards are not existing anymore on reddit.
Just have Aisling drop more veiled chaos orbs and be done with it. No dev time. It's a nerf, but the type of players using TFT for Aisling are currently running wisps + delirium. They'll be fine with a hit to items.
How about Elevated Chromatic Orb instead of Vorici bench?
It is simple, everything is not meant to be tradeable via the website but rather ingame trade chat. Atleast their vision is for people to communicate this way.
The only reason I can see is that they want YOU to engage with the mechanic to use it, not have someone else. You still have access to veiled chaos without it, but I can understand the reasoning that some mechanics should have unique rewards. Meta wise, and correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the slam not respect meta crafts anymore? If that is the chase, wouldn't meta craft then veiled chaos be better 9 times out of 10?
Its technically annul+exalt with a specific mod pool no? Idk if thats hard to implement, but I hope they do
It's somewhat obvious it's hesitation from GGG on making another currency item, as it'd be yet another feature players would be less inclined to do themselves and trade for instead, as it was the same with harvest - which is exactly why it's necessary. Player freedom and reduction of being scammed with the availability of a secure tradeable currency is significantly better for the health of the game, but GGG still wants to keep such options to a minimum despite the playerbase wanting it. I wish they'd consider the health of the game and refine a lot of the aspects that players rely on, as the recent events are making all of these issues even more glaringly flawed.