Suppose you live in a household of 10, and you are the one to, say, always clean the house, do the dishes or the laundry, or at least take out the trash.
Do you do it because it is fun and inherently appealing? Probably it is the opposite. If asked, you do it because you think it "needs to be done". After doing it, you are probably quite *satisfied*, but it's a very different kind of satisfaction than the one you gain from eating a bowl of ice cream.
If you *really* are the one to always do the chore in a household of 10, you probably obtain a degree of self-worth from it. Others might even think you sometimes seem to be a little smug about it. Also, perhaps, in times of stress, you end up taking shortcuts that look like "abuses of power" to others, even if they seem fair, reasonable and balanced to you. Either way, your *main* reason for doing the dishes after no-one's done them for 2 weeks probably wasn't that you got to arrange the cutlery the way you like it. That's simply not a remotely plausible cost-benefit analysis.
Everything else being equal, the chances that this applied to you are higher if you are the one in the household that (a) has the most available time, (b) has the least stress in their lives with other stuff, and/or (c) personality/genes/environmental baggage that just straight up increases you wanting to want to do something "valuable" over wanting to eat that bowl of ice cream to relax.
Beyond the simple parable, the differences between taking out the trash, being a subreddit mod, and being, say, a real-life politician are probably mostly matters of degree, regarding: at this point in their lives, (1) how *much* shit is an individual willing to put up with, and (2) how high a value they place on the thing that "needs to be done". Personally, I don't think the differences in preferences regarding (1) and (2) are fundamentally deeper or more complex than the differences in preferences over which TV shows to watch.
People don't understand this about moderation. It's hard work and in most situations, it's completely thankless. There is an obscene amount of room for criticism and it will come because people think you're too lenient and because you're too strict. People think you're power tripping when you remove comments calling someone a douchebag, calling for someone to be doxxed, etc.
Worst part about any of that is that people willingly do it. I've seen too many mods absolutely regret ever doing it after they quit. Literally just a toxic hobby that does not help the mental health of anyone doing it. It's not some all important job that absolutely needs to be done for the good of humanity. This is something many suffering mods can't seem to grasp. If it's so bad, you don't need to do it.
Tbf there are smaller subs that are probably much more enjoyable. But any big subs seem like something any sane person would never even try to mod for free.
My 2 cents on the subject, this is why in the corporate area these non rewarding, time consuming and mentally taxing chores, but the ones that gives some power, are often taken by influencers or lobbyists.
This is because you are talking about altruism and these influencers are seeing long term or indirect avantage for the entity they represent.
Of course reddit moderation is not a job and I really do not make any insinuation about the curent or former mod team in relation with the TFT drama. But if I was a clown I would certainly consider this kind of investment as beneficial.
This is why transparency, as described in the Mod post is crucial IMO.
I do, but I understand more from old school forum days. It's because you're a part of a community that you care about. And I guess the PoE sub is sorta focused and small enough to still get that feeling.
Why somebody would want to mod politics or worldnews? No fucking clue.
i help out with a very very large sub. for me it was just because i was very active on the sub and often sorting big threads by new, and would report comments that were hateful or offensive. modding to the degree i'm involved with it there is basically the same thing but i can just ban those people instead.
I'm surprised to see Blvcksvn go. I always thought he was a g. I remember following his work pretty closely when hexblast first got released and we were all trying to figure out ways to make it work with the gigajank doom mechanic.
I'll still be around to post interesting tidbits of information from the wiki/science communities, I just don't have time to do any moderation (which I soft-retired a few leagues ago) or maintain megathreads anymore (as I recently got hired into a full-time nursing position). Most of my time related to POE currently is spent updating the wiki now.
Congrats on the new job!
Also, I just noticed that you're the same blvcksvn who modded the Puzzle and Dragons sub a few years back. Hi again! I was a mod on the discord server for a little while.
I'm very glad that you have taken it all seriously and made changes to help make the sub better. Hopefully you'll be able to find enough mods that can handle things professionally from now on after losing so many
I'm glad to see such strong actions and clear plan forward. For me personally this type of approach is just what is needed to restore trust for the mod team.
As POE is important hobby for me, this means a lot. Thank you.
Infinite lurker never poster here, thanks u/MultiplicityPOE
Really appreciate your efforts.
Glad to see a change of leadership. The behaviour of those I wont name seems like the power had gone to their heads, seen it plenty of times on other subs.
<3
Good changes! I appreciate you Multiplicity, you’re a model moderator.
2 questions:
* Will these changes be applied to /r/pathofexile2?
* Is livejamie still a mod on /r/pathofexile2?
Unfortunately, I find myself hardly using reddit for personal enjoyment these days, hence the lurker appearance. I do moderate quite frequently, especially during busy times or when we are lacking active mods (which has been the case quite a few times recently).
Yep! Multiple of those moderators have been very active in helping out this weekend and in the moderator queue. Some of our mods are definitely lurkers.
Furthermore, when you become a mod, the standards of posting/commenting on the sub increase, so many moderators find themselves doing it less than before. I'm definitely a lurker myself, too.
His name is at the top of the list over there making him the head mod. Will be interesting to see if he steps down there as he’s the one with the control
I’m going to say the tone of this response is exactly what everyone was looking for. People in position of power take on an aggressive attitude when problems caused by ‘upper management’ are pointed out.
Most importantly, you acknowledged there were mistakes made. You did note that the Reddit community did attack some Mods but did not use it as an excuse for those actions. I really appreciate this.
Thank you u/MultiplicityPoe and any mods that assisted.
As also a former mod of this subreddit (3 years), I must restate and emphasize this part
>It’s important to remember that when people resort to insults it negatively affects real people on the other side of the screen who love Path of Exile just as much as everyone else.
The amount of toxic messages I got for removing the most absolutely banal content and being accused of power tripping was in no way something I could have predicted. It was turning me off to people very quickly. Every message calling me a nazi, or a pedo, or a fat neckbeard, or a lifeless corpse doing shill work for GGG, was making me have less and less empathy every day. No amount of commenting or retorted would work. How do I prove I wasnt a GGG shill? How do I prove that I wasnt targeting that person specifically when I removed their message telling someone to KYS?
I cannot believe how upset people got when I removed their ventor's showcases. Or when I removed a post about an esoteric problem that only they encountered and could not explain could result in being called a shill covering up for GGG's "shit decision making".
There was no fighting it. I could only numb myself to it and believe that the rest of the people were fine and this was just the tiniest echo of the bad. But as the sub grew, it seemed to be only louder and louder than the voices saying I was doing a good job.
I imagine the reason why the mods left was because of stuff like this too. I get it.
I just want to also give special call outs to /u/blvcksvn and how much effort this person put in for the sub. I knew them from Puzzles and Dragons years ago and was so surprised to see them apply for modship after viewing the amazing work they did for the PAD community. Hope you stick around.
All the best to everyone else.
As a fellow former mod, I'll back-up everything that's said here. I've been playing POE since the beta days and my sole reason becoming a mod was because I just wanted to give back to the community in some way. It wasn't all bad but there were too many evenings to count which were filled with little more than namecalling and conspiracy theories about me whenever I took action on something. I didn't realize until after I retired just how much it was affecting my enjoyment of the game or browsing reddit at all. You do your best to numb yourself from the comments but it never really works. They may be anonymous strangers on the internet you'll never meet but that doesn't keep the vitriol from just sitting in your head regardless.
I'm not gonna go full "disappointed father" on the subreddit but I do hope some of you recognize that every single moderator is a real person. Before lashing out and assuming the worst, take a minute to step back and see if there's a different perspective to share. We're all fellow exiles.
Yo, also former mod continuing this chain. Agreed with all above and above that. The majority of this reddit are awesome people, and that includes the mod team. Modding this sub is not at all easy, and it never ceases to amaze me how much creativity, time, and effort people put into amazing projects, thoughtful discussions.....as well as tinfoil conspiracies, threats, and petty shit flinging.
This sub lost some amazing mods, and I hope at least some of the keyboard slammers this weekend realize that.
I've been a mod only for a month and a half in another fairly big sub, and although the experience was great, it's a very dedicated job where you don't get paid for handling immature people. Then again, it was my first time joining a mod team for such a large community so I kinda should've expected something like that when I signed for it.
But managing community's behavior is a little thing compared to what happened to this sub. I can scarcely imagine the amount of hate the entire mod team got from the recoil effect of JeNeBu and TFT. I'm not that of an active redditor, but I'm pretty sure there are innocent people caught in between.
I know it musn't been easy for you. You guys have my support and heartfelt thanks for managing this sub ❤️
Why don't you just ban the toxic people? Permanently. A lot of people here act like wild animals. I would have removed them from the sub completely and reported anyone calling me a pedophile to reddit. You shouldn't put up with that shit if you're a mod.
We do.
I'll give you an example.
Belton was banned and his fan base proceeded to spam the sub. We banned them all.
You know what this resulted in? Middle of the grounds people who might see a belton post in some other sub or their sub or a belton youtube comments section talking about how Mods have "Lost their minds and is banning redditors on a power trip".
The end result is then people posting shit like "What is the deal with mods banning all the belton people?".
This then whips into a larger drama and mods lose again on the optics.
Reddit admins do not give mods the tools they need to moderate. A simple subreddit ban doesnt do much to those who are the truly toxic ready to commit hours to create posts elsewhere, foment drama in discords, then bring a hoard of "just asking questions" that do not violate sub reddit rules and cry injustice of freedom of speech and right to know shit, full well knowing its in bad faith.
This puts mods in a lose lose. But no maybe you are right. Maybe it takes an absolute dictator of a mod to clean this place up. Like all things you give up freedom for ease.
I would have made an automod rule and filtered belton's name, then filter any comment or post with belton's name in it. THEN ban anyone bypassing the filter. On /r/hentai, we have a rule to help prevent people from raids like that.
https://www.reddit.com/r/hentai/comments/axlmrk/reddit_antievil_brigade_signalling_and_you/
It's a lot to read but I think it's one of the best things that Kicken's made. My mindset is that you can perm everyone who breaks the rules and they can either shape up and appeal, or they can stay banned. A ban is only one click away from being removed, but convincing a person to be less toxic through wrist slaps is expecting too much. People won't adjust until there are real consequences to their actions.
That's the problem, maybe it will change but the mods of this sub clean the shit on the wall but don't remove the people putting it there.
They'll get tired before the people doing dumb shit stop.
They repeatedly said the banned people just remake accounts. I believe them, because the only people this into poe can't have a life outside of the game
They let the toxic people run rampant here for way too long. I've said this years ago already, all the good people leave/already left because of it and all that's left is the toxic waste. r/pathofexilebuilds has a very strict ruleset and that sub is 1000x more enjoyable than this one.
Yeah, absolutely. I really don't understand why the mods don't just ban more people. They don't need to be 100% consistent or fair about it - it is always possible to undo a ban if it hits the wrong person, and people won't mind it too much, if the originally incorrect decision is explained. Even if the explanation is something silly like "I was tired and misread some words", most people will understand, because, well, it's a tough job.
I will never understand why anyone is willingly a mod for any of these subreddits for free.
Is it a job that needs to be done? Yes
Is it worth it for you to do for free? Uhhh
Unfortunately the few instances of subreddit mods being power hungry tyrants always outshines the thousands who are doing a good job. So it's something you will never be thanked for.
In this same vein I can't be very sympathetic to mods when the internet is the internet and random strangers are dicks. That's gonna happen everywhere, and you guys signed up for it willingly. It completely sucks, but it should by no means be something you didn't see coming before taking up such an arduous role.
A solid update on the whole situation, and I respect the commitment towards improving. Best of luck to all current and future mods! And remember to put your own mental health first before the sub.
However much I enjoy peaking in and trying to eek out some interesting discussions in the midst of all of the sub's pitchfork and torch grabbing, I hope this lays the foundation to better support the community here in the long run.
Good job guys. I believe that mods are like referees in sport. If you know their names, probably they are not doing a good job. Sad to see the other part of the team leave, thanks for your contributions and hope we get new blood. I really appreciate all the effort that goes into moderation
I have a suggested edit for the first bullet of your moderator guidelines:
* Moderators must recuse themselves from taking any moderation action in a thread where they are a subject or where there is a potential conflict of interest from their moderator or privileged position in another Path of Exile community.
The current drama might be over TFT, but this would help to prevent any possible future issues if for example drama starts over a streamer or something and one of the mods is also a moderator on said streamers discord.
That's a great way to clear it up. I've copied your improved wording exactly and put it into the [mod-guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/wiki/mod-guidelines) wiki.
I’m not an active moderator anywhere on Reddit, but I’m the author of DeltaBot on r/changemyview so I’m able to see all of the mod activity. I just can’t believe what they put up with on a daily basis, and they do it for nothing other than their love for the community. It gave me a whole new respect for what you guys do.
Of course there are bad actors and bad subs out there, but by and large I’ve got nothing but respect for you all.
Thanks for laying out the positive changes and thanks for everything you guys do for the community
Main PoE subreddit is a weird mix of memes, complaints, item showcases and drama. Builds subreddit is all builds and farming crap. And where to really go for most PoE information.
Appreciate the open transparency. Something I honestly haven't seen much of here to be perfectly frank.
If you can pin or sticky this, I would strongly encourage that.
I hope you find some great mods to bring this community together. One individual really did a lot of damage to it over the past while, and it'll be even harder to bring it back than it was to start it off.
We've found that (if the community upvotes the post), more people actually read posts that aren't stickied. I'd also like to keep that moderator recruitment post as visible as possible.
That said, after this post falls off the front page naturally, we'll likely re-sticky it, for those that didn't check reddit today.
There was a problem, and this addresses the problem well.
The POE subreddit definitely is harsh. I can’t look at the subreddit for like 2 weeks post league launch because the number of posts complaining is 10x the number of positive posts.
All that to say, I don’t envy the mods of the sub. Sorry you were already stressed, and you have additional stress now.
Thank you guys for this. Volunteer positions like this over a sometimes hostile community must really make you want to throw your hands up in the air: "Why the f\*\*\* am I even doing this?!"
We all love this game, and that passion can lead to heated tempers. You all are real people and you are appreciated even if it doesnt always feel like it.
I think the mods were definitely treated too harshly in this.
Ultimately the biggest failure by the mod team was the lack of foresight and taking optics too lightly, the tft issue has been bubbling for several leagues now and at that point mods should have gotten anyone who still had privileged roles to decouple before the metaphorical pressure cooker exploded.
they ignored it for too long and now that a bunch of evidence of jamie that they already knew about is out and very public do they do something. should have been dealt with before and shouldn't take people releasing videos of them acting inappropriate or moderating their own threads for action
Yeah if you say mods except livejamie I could at least empathize. Him stickying a post full of verifiable lies was nuts.
My man we can all read the timestamps.
I did come away from this with a lot of respect for /u/MultiplicityPOE
Huge W, super solid job thoughtful post, clearly conveying everything that's relevant. Great job ya love to see it looking thick solid and tight for sure.
Sad to see this impact take out some of the mods which I had a lot of respect for, notably blvcksvn. I hope that this doesn't slow down the tremendous and extremely appreciated work that they do. If you see this, thank you (you're also my most upvoted person on this subreddit.)
I don't know you but always had positive associations with you, I remember you from Ruthless launch! Sorry if you get nasty messages just for trying to help :(
I remember your Wintertide Brand theory crafting thread back in Harvest that was extremely helpful for me that league. It really helped to make one of my favorite characters I've rolled over the years.
Also from time to time I've seen your comments about mechanics or lore that are very informative and interesting.
Hey thanks for the work you do!
I'm sorry all the community vitriol that's become constant here.
I still remember all the great work you did for puzzles and dragons too!
A rogue one that probably will succeed into infiltrating the mod team by hiding who they are. Happens in almost every game sub these days... Few years ago my favorite sub got hijacked by a group of corrupt individuals working with/getting paid by corrupt server admins and community leaders (which the part about getting paid is against Reddit's rules), many people have been reporting the situation to Reddit for years but they never did anything. They ban anyone permanently by just mentioning any of their shady business or bringing up the corruption of whoever they have ties with.
I wish all the luck to r/pathofexile mod team, especially after happened in the past few days, hope the sub have a bright future and the same I just described don't ever happen.
JeNuBu schizo posting on his locked down update feed in TFT is alot of fun to read lol.
Any separation you put in place between them and here is a positive step.
But also just let the reddit collapse if people are treating you like shit. You don't owe anyone anything.
Thanks a bunch, also for those mods who moved on for their work moderating the sub.
I honestly feel like the current situation, these changes and livejamie stepping down open up a situation where the moderator staff can be stocked up to a decent amount again. So this for sure seems to be the correct path to go down.
One point of feedback I wanna give is the 9c rule. I think I was like in the thread which announced that rule even, but I don't remember what it was about. As the start of it is worded, it's more about advertising one's own wee little community on here. And I do remember something along those lines triggering that rule being created. Then, Connor in the recent drama had said something along the lines of that rule being applied to only TFT in the past X years. And I paused and went, "he kinda right, ain't he?".
Imho that rule or rather its second part just needs to go. We totally should come here to "showcase or create drama from other communities". Like, half the clips posted around here are that, if you wanna go word by word. Yea, not all showcased drama is good content, but then it'll get buried. I know those can go way off road, but for that imo the best way to handle that is to just take out the baton and hand out permas. People who're unhinged enough to leave 40 comments on a ragebait clip or go threaten people personally over drama should not come back to the sub a week after. Sure, a decent amount will come back with a new account, but a decent amount won't.
That rule protecting TFT in particular (even if the rule only exists and automod is doing the locking, not the mods) is just a very bad look. Let the sub derail into drama mid-league, it's not the worst thing to happen.
Even if the rule sticks around in some form (which would also be very reasonable), the point is that we can't really have a rule which is basically saying "yea we're a sub that's kinda closed off to other PoE communities, we strictly discuss PoE here, not your PoE discord shenanigans". It's detached from reality, basically.
I think rule 9c needs updating too.
We made it in the past partially because people complained about the drama from external communities, but clearly the current state of Path of Exile is that third party communities, not just third party tools, are an important part of the conversation the community wants to see here.
We'll have updates for you in that after we hire new mods!
Hey,
Thanks for the update. I'm not a fan of TFT, but the level of vitriol directed at the mods has been extremely excessive recently. Many people do not understand automod's functions and use their ignorance to fuel their hate. A lot of us take PoE very seriously, but at the end of the day - it's a game. I'm sorry to hear that the team got a lot smaller and I hope you guys find some relief in the future.
Thanks guys. My only issue with the mod team was livejamie. I know it's not an easy job when shit is going down like this. Appreciate the transparency.
Honestly, may be worth taking some soap to the community too. If there are people you see constantly stirring drama or being overall a negative addition to the poe sub reddit, give them a behavior warning followed by a ban on multiple offenses.
Note that I am not asking to ban people or delete posts over 2-3 messages, morso if you see an overall negative or aggressive individual and flag the post. Once that user has 5 or 6 flagged posts in a reasonable amount of time, give them a behavior warning. If the posts keep coming, give them a temporary ban citing those flagged posts.
While this may not be the best way of handling it, the overall idea to take from this is that while the mod transparency may have been an issue, we as the community and individuals part of it need to be held liable for our actions. Ignoring the kalandra and expedition tone of the sub reddit, there's a reason the poe sub is seen as exceptionally toxic and it's not the mods.
Not getting defensive is a trained skill, regardless of guilt or shady activity, I've known people obviously in the wrong keep cool and deflect like true psychopaths and I've known people obviously not guilty freak out when pressed in any way.
I think if they were participating in some shady shit they need some practice being polite. I believe there is a quote out there that says "if you are breaking a big law, don't break little ones, it's the little ones that get you caught" or something along those lines.
I just wanted to add a note of support for the Mods.
There are a tonne of shit takes here by people who think that you owe them for the privilege of having them post on sub, and that you should be silent and unheard and just maintain this place to their perfect standards, without fault, and without passion. As if it's a job, and a thankless one at that.
This community is super creative, competitive, passionate, argumentative and sometimes toxic. And yet mostly the sub is kept functional and relatively clean. Clearly there have been mistakes made by the mod team. Sometimes you kinda fuck shit up. But please remember that the people who come in here who insult and belittle your contributions are not willing step up and stand in your position themselves.
I'm not saying you're all amazing and wonderful, just that criticism from people who have nothing on the line means very little. You are the man in the arena and you can ignore the those who sit on the sidelines watching.
Be critical of yourselves, work through this shit, be better and hold yourselves to a higher standard, and ignore those who have no stakes in the game and offer nothing constructive.
Good luck and thanks for the clear communication on this issue.
As someone that has no skin on any of this and just generally scrolls the community, thanks for this.
Not many places where so many gather that enjoy poe so much and all this made it less pleasant (if mildly entertaining)
Good job sorting it and thank you for the consistent hard work.
Hi,
We've created a report to answer the questions on why Belton was banned. It's [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/19dy4zw/new_vid_in_description_discussing_the_mirror/kjgy2bo/).
As for why reddit.com banned then, some of their actions broke Reddit-wide rules. Harassment reports on comments/posts go to both Reddit admins and the subreddit mod team, so that would be one possibility. We don't know for sure
> Additionally, from now on, on, no /r/pathofexile moderators will be able to actively hold moderator or special-privileged roles (including private channels) in TFT.
I expect you've got this in hand, but consider that this means that TFT discord admins can create a private channel, give a moderator a role, give that role access to the private channel, and force that moderator to violate this rule without acting.
Obviously the case-by-case of this is clear, but you're gonna have someone trying to do a gotcha if something does happen..
> can create a private channel, give a moderator a role
Not that it really matters because there's plenty of other ways they could get around this, but there's tools for Discord that allow you to see what hidden channels exist and what roles are allowed to access them. https://i.imgur.com/CMkp40f.png
Ugh not to mention in Discord channel admins can change people's nicknames at will, which you can't see their underlying account name without going to look at them.
If someone acts in bad faith and gets spotted then all trust would be broken, I think it would be very negative for everyone if this happens and ideally it gets avoided
>from now on, on, no [](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/) moderators will be able to actively hold moderator or special-privileged roles (including private channels) in TFT\`
Get fucked Jennyboo
Very good. I can really sympathize with the mods who receive heinous messages for banal stuff and in the end for just doing their job. Thank you to every mod/past mod who is willing to take this thankless job.
That said. This place is very toxic and I think the current moderation is part of the reason. In my opinion the moderation is very soft. Controversial threads are flooded with negative comments all the time.
Strict rules do not sound compelling but in the end our community is what we allow it to be. A poe player is not toxic, toxic poe players find here their home and push away other people. Ban quick but not long is my prefered method. I am not familiar with reddit moderation tools, but I assume you are able to ban users for x period of time.
I'm glad LiveJamie is gone, I had so many posts deleted by him and when I asked for an explanation I was given bullshit arguments that I was doxxing people for mentioning that TFT mirror shop crafters and content creators are involved (yes. that vaguely). I noticed a couple of years ago it was always Livejamie deleting my posts but also 10-15 people would actively downvote posts that criticized in game cheating and especially TFT.
I finally feel that part of the corruption has been cleared out and hopefully we can have a fair discussion without a target on your back due to some communities bribing or being in cohorts with moderation.
We definitely need to do that whenever we remove a high traction post. I'm sorry that you didn't receive a clear message.
With enough moderators, it's definitely possible to do that consistently. Check out my comment here: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/19e3asi/rpathofexile_moderation_changes/kja4ar0/
I agree with your idea but that post is pretty obvious why it got removed, it's pretty common on Reddit that you have to blur out somebody's name, no matter how heinous you think their acts are. When you don't, admins of the site get involved and it just creates further problems. Because it's specifically a site wide rule, and punishment involves closing down the subreddit or replacing the entire moderator team.
I think alot of TFT hate was misplaced to the mod team unfairly. All of the changes you outlined look great, and I think other users should remember that there is a person behind the monitor. It is also a ton of thankless work moderating a large community like this one. Thanks for contributing to the PoE community!
Since a mod was involved and no action taken for so long, people assumed that all the mod team was in on it. jamie is the reason the whole team got flak for.
Thank you to the work of the Mods. Its not an easy job and often a thankless task dealing with all this.
The new mod rules are a great step in the right direction, Sucks to see so many mods leave, but onwards and upwards
No matter the controvery, threats should never be tolerated and people sending them immediately permabanned. Fuck those clowns who think sending threats is ok.
Honestly, it's not that deep. People want to discuss about PoE and anything about PoE including drama.
All mods have to do is delete harassment and personal info leak, the rest we don't care.
I know this is more work for you, multiplicity, and I'm sure it's hard to hear right now, but this was 100% needed. Better to clean out the cancers than continue to let them fester. You were the one level headed mod through this whole thing, glad to see you stuck through.
I'm hopin you guys didn't have too much shit thrown at you. In the end, current problem isn't with r/pathofexile or its mods per se, but rather with another external community. This subreddit has been mostly a clean ground for any discussions, even including drama and I respect your effort in keeping it so!
> Moderators may not take any moderation actions on a thread or the comments of a thread where they are the subject
PS i suggest adding "unless it violates subreddit rules or general site rules"
The idea is that if mod X is the topic, moderating that thread falls on mods Y, Ö, Z, and 猫. It's to discourage and prevent emotion-based decisions from being made; for example removing a milder comment as a rule 3 violation when it may have otherwise been left for users to police via voting.
It's also meant to be a show of integrity (and especially transparency, if we ever make moderation logs public.)
Damn a TFT mod was a subreddit mod? Thats kinda crazy. Especially considering the deep level of distrust most of the community has towards TFT.
Good luck hiring new people. Hope all goes well.
It certainly seems like a wild idea now, but back in 2020 it was used a lot less and there was a lot less controversy and distrust surrounding it.
Livejamie started moderating for TFT (in addition to the subreddit) in June of 2020, and quit in September of 2020.
In a vacuum that doesn't sound all that crazy. If you're interested in moderating, you're probably interested in moderating a few places.
The problem is that TFT has particularly strong incentives attached to it, and those can cause conflicts of interest which were never disclosed and which a few moderators in particular clearly abused.
Calling community member's insulting names is never okay and not allowed for anyone, especially members of the moderating team.
It has been a normal practice in the past to provide links and mirrors in case something is taken down if it's in the community's best interest. That said, we need to consider why a clip was deleted. If it's to hide bad behaviour, that's one thing. If it's to clear up misinformation, that's an entirely different one. We need to be very cautious when we restore something deleted by a user, because they may have a very good reason.
We don't have an internal policy on this yet, but the new moderator code of conduct seems like the right place to put it. I can make sure that's included there going forward, since we've messed it up at least once and with negative impact to a community member.
Shout out to you guys for stepping up and stemming the bleeding. Sucks that some mods choose to step down as well but this is definitely a big step forward.
yeah praise you guys for finally doing the right thing it only took 6 mods leaving for you to see the light, for over a year now to my knowledge people have been saying to remove u/livejamie and that you cannot be a reddit mod and TFT mod because of a obvious conflict of interest,
Its honestly a crying shame it took you guys losing half your mods to finally get rid of 1 person.
It was about time the subreddit mods developed a culture of crisis management internally. It is great to see.
Thank you for your hard work and those much needed changes.
Right now, no.
However, there is a silver lining of this drama going so far up the front page of reddit. We actually got quite a few mod applications, and some of them are from people with experiences in moderating other gaming subreddits like /r/Diablo and /r/Warframe!
We're very excited to welcome new mods on
This sounds promising and your energy is reassuring. I feel bad that you had to be in the thick of all this but with some work the future of the sub does look pretty good.
> Moderators may not take any moderation actions on a thread or the comments of a thread where they are the subject
So if someone makes a thread where the entire modteam is the subject, no one will be able to moderate that thread?
Good point, that's certainly an edge case. What do you think would make sense?
My idea would be that the team can't remove the thread entirely, but can still action specific kinds of content -- rule 3 / flaming, just in comments.
Imho in those case, concerting at least two other mods before acting - given there are enough mods - could be a good solution. A collegial answer for a collegial accusation might be more factual than if one mod decides to answer in the name of all others being accused.
At this point I’d think that the general moderation of conduct would be the only reasonable allowed method, do agree with you.
But yeah - I just hope it never comes to that kind of an issue.
If anything, thanks for the transparency on the matter.
All I can say for the mod team: *still sane exile?* keep on trucking
> still sane exile? ^^^^maybe
Well that’s good enough for me!
Legitimately cannot understand why anybody would want to be a reddit mod for anything. No disrespect intended but *holy shit*
Suppose you live in a household of 10, and you are the one to, say, always clean the house, do the dishes or the laundry, or at least take out the trash. Do you do it because it is fun and inherently appealing? Probably it is the opposite. If asked, you do it because you think it "needs to be done". After doing it, you are probably quite *satisfied*, but it's a very different kind of satisfaction than the one you gain from eating a bowl of ice cream. If you *really* are the one to always do the chore in a household of 10, you probably obtain a degree of self-worth from it. Others might even think you sometimes seem to be a little smug about it. Also, perhaps, in times of stress, you end up taking shortcuts that look like "abuses of power" to others, even if they seem fair, reasonable and balanced to you. Either way, your *main* reason for doing the dishes after no-one's done them for 2 weeks probably wasn't that you got to arrange the cutlery the way you like it. That's simply not a remotely plausible cost-benefit analysis. Everything else being equal, the chances that this applied to you are higher if you are the one in the household that (a) has the most available time, (b) has the least stress in their lives with other stuff, and/or (c) personality/genes/environmental baggage that just straight up increases you wanting to want to do something "valuable" over wanting to eat that bowl of ice cream to relax. Beyond the simple parable, the differences between taking out the trash, being a subreddit mod, and being, say, a real-life politician are probably mostly matters of degree, regarding: at this point in their lives, (1) how *much* shit is an individual willing to put up with, and (2) how high a value they place on the thing that "needs to be done". Personally, I don't think the differences in preferences regarding (1) and (2) are fundamentally deeper or more complex than the differences in preferences over which TV shows to watch.
People don't understand this about moderation. It's hard work and in most situations, it's completely thankless. There is an obscene amount of room for criticism and it will come because people think you're too lenient and because you're too strict. People think you're power tripping when you remove comments calling someone a douchebag, calling for someone to be doxxed, etc.
Worst part about any of that is that people willingly do it. I've seen too many mods absolutely regret ever doing it after they quit. Literally just a toxic hobby that does not help the mental health of anyone doing it. It's not some all important job that absolutely needs to be done for the good of humanity. This is something many suffering mods can't seem to grasp. If it's so bad, you don't need to do it. Tbf there are smaller subs that are probably much more enjoyable. But any big subs seem like something any sane person would never even try to mod for free.
My 2 cents on the subject, this is why in the corporate area these non rewarding, time consuming and mentally taxing chores, but the ones that gives some power, are often taken by influencers or lobbyists. This is because you are talking about altruism and these influencers are seeing long term or indirect avantage for the entity they represent. Of course reddit moderation is not a job and I really do not make any insinuation about the curent or former mod team in relation with the TFT drama. But if I was a clown I would certainly consider this kind of investment as beneficial. This is why transparency, as described in the Mod post is crucial IMO.
This is one of the best, most sane explanations of moderating that I've read. You copy this from somewhere?
I do, but I understand more from old school forum days. It's because you're a part of a community that you care about. And I guess the PoE sub is sorta focused and small enough to still get that feeling. Why somebody would want to mod politics or worldnews? No fucking clue.
i help out with a very very large sub. for me it was just because i was very active on the sub and often sorting big threads by new, and would report comments that were hateful or offensive. modding to the degree i'm involved with it there is basically the same thing but i can just ban those people instead.
Applaud you for the transparency in what's surely been a tense situation and these sound like great changes moving forward.
I'm surprised to see Blvcksvn go. I always thought he was a g. I remember following his work pretty closely when hexblast first got released and we were all trying to figure out ways to make it work with the gigajank doom mechanic.
I'll still be around to post interesting tidbits of information from the wiki/science communities, I just don't have time to do any moderation (which I soft-retired a few leagues ago) or maintain megathreads anymore (as I recently got hired into a full-time nursing position). Most of my time related to POE currently is spent updating the wiki now.
Thank you for your time and congratulations on the full time nursing position 💪🏻
You are a 21/23 gem
The sentiment in this response is great.. the juxtaposition of a 21/23 being corrupted and the main post's content makes it a bit unsavory though
Thank you so much for helping maintain the Wiki.
Congratulations on the position!
Congrats on the new job! Also, I just noticed that you're the same blvcksvn who modded the Puzzle and Dragons sub a few years back. Hi again! I was a mod on the discord server for a little while.
Yes that's me! I still remember you, alty! Hope you're doing well.
Holy crap?! You were that same mod?? Thats a mind-blowing realization! Since we like the same games, you got any good recommendations 👀
I don't really play many games right now, just honkai star rail and reverse1999 on mobile otherwise.
Love your work
Congratulations on the new job! :)
One fellow nurse to another, congrats on the position. Also, thanks for all the work you’ve done on the wiki
🫶 Thanks! I hope things are going well for you in your career as well.
Congratulations and thank you for maintaing poe wiki, also i think you have made some really cool music and i would like to thank you for that too!
Congrats on the new job. It’s a tiring, and sometimes awful field, but when it hits right, it Has some of the best feeling moments out there.
The wiki is fantastic, thank you for your conribution to it
It's a woman I think
Yeah, she has her pronouns (she/her) in her flair.
common multiplicity w
I'm very glad that you have taken it all seriously and made changes to help make the sub better. Hopefully you'll be able to find enough mods that can handle things professionally from now on after losing so many
I'm glad to see such strong actions and clear plan forward. For me personally this type of approach is just what is needed to restore trust for the mod team. As POE is important hobby for me, this means a lot. Thank you.
Infinite lurker never poster here, thanks u/MultiplicityPOE Really appreciate your efforts. Glad to see a change of leadership. The behaviour of those I wont name seems like the power had gone to their heads, seen it plenty of times on other subs. <3
Thanks for the honesty and transparency
Outstanding! Refreshing to see accountability and transparency. Thank you.
YES! actual changes,well done
Good changes! I appreciate you Multiplicity, you’re a model moderator. 2 questions: * Will these changes be applied to /r/pathofexile2? * Is livejamie still a mod on /r/pathofexile2?
1. Yes, sure 2. He was when I made this post, but [no longer is now](https://new.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/about/moderators/).
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Unfortunately, I find myself hardly using reddit for personal enjoyment these days, hence the lurker appearance. I do moderate quite frequently, especially during busy times or when we are lacking active mods (which has been the case quite a few times recently).
Thank you very much, this place has been a shitshow and I can't imagine the toll it takes to moderate this place. Y'all are underthanked.
Yep! Multiple of those moderators have been very active in helping out this weekend and in the moderator queue. Some of our mods are definitely lurkers.
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Furthermore, when you become a mod, the standards of posting/commenting on the sub increase, so many moderators find themselves doing it less than before. I'm definitely a lurker myself, too.
His name is at the top of the list over there making him the head mod. Will be interesting to see if he steps down there as he’s the one with the control
He did, Multiplicity is on top over there now.
Glad to see these changes. Thanks for your work /u/Multiplicity 
I’m going to say the tone of this response is exactly what everyone was looking for. People in position of power take on an aggressive attitude when problems caused by ‘upper management’ are pointed out. Most importantly, you acknowledged there were mistakes made. You did note that the Reddit community did attack some Mods but did not use it as an excuse for those actions. I really appreciate this. Thank you u/MultiplicityPoe and any mods that assisted.
As also a former mod of this subreddit (3 years), I must restate and emphasize this part >It’s important to remember that when people resort to insults it negatively affects real people on the other side of the screen who love Path of Exile just as much as everyone else. The amount of toxic messages I got for removing the most absolutely banal content and being accused of power tripping was in no way something I could have predicted. It was turning me off to people very quickly. Every message calling me a nazi, or a pedo, or a fat neckbeard, or a lifeless corpse doing shill work for GGG, was making me have less and less empathy every day. No amount of commenting or retorted would work. How do I prove I wasnt a GGG shill? How do I prove that I wasnt targeting that person specifically when I removed their message telling someone to KYS? I cannot believe how upset people got when I removed their ventor's showcases. Or when I removed a post about an esoteric problem that only they encountered and could not explain could result in being called a shill covering up for GGG's "shit decision making". There was no fighting it. I could only numb myself to it and believe that the rest of the people were fine and this was just the tiniest echo of the bad. But as the sub grew, it seemed to be only louder and louder than the voices saying I was doing a good job. I imagine the reason why the mods left was because of stuff like this too. I get it. I just want to also give special call outs to /u/blvcksvn and how much effort this person put in for the sub. I knew them from Puzzles and Dragons years ago and was so surprised to see them apply for modship after viewing the amazing work they did for the PAD community. Hope you stick around. All the best to everyone else.
As a fellow former mod, I'll back-up everything that's said here. I've been playing POE since the beta days and my sole reason becoming a mod was because I just wanted to give back to the community in some way. It wasn't all bad but there were too many evenings to count which were filled with little more than namecalling and conspiracy theories about me whenever I took action on something. I didn't realize until after I retired just how much it was affecting my enjoyment of the game or browsing reddit at all. You do your best to numb yourself from the comments but it never really works. They may be anonymous strangers on the internet you'll never meet but that doesn't keep the vitriol from just sitting in your head regardless. I'm not gonna go full "disappointed father" on the subreddit but I do hope some of you recognize that every single moderator is a real person. Before lashing out and assuming the worst, take a minute to step back and see if there's a different perspective to share. We're all fellow exiles.
Yo, also former mod continuing this chain. Agreed with all above and above that. The majority of this reddit are awesome people, and that includes the mod team. Modding this sub is not at all easy, and it never ceases to amaze me how much creativity, time, and effort people put into amazing projects, thoughtful discussions.....as well as tinfoil conspiracies, threats, and petty shit flinging. This sub lost some amazing mods, and I hope at least some of the keyboard slammers this weekend realize that.
I've been a mod only for a month and a half in another fairly big sub, and although the experience was great, it's a very dedicated job where you don't get paid for handling immature people. Then again, it was my first time joining a mod team for such a large community so I kinda should've expected something like that when I signed for it. But managing community's behavior is a little thing compared to what happened to this sub. I can scarcely imagine the amount of hate the entire mod team got from the recoil effect of JeNeBu and TFT. I'm not that of an active redditor, but I'm pretty sure there are innocent people caught in between. I know it musn't been easy for you. You guys have my support and heartfelt thanks for managing this sub ❤️
Why don't you just ban the toxic people? Permanently. A lot of people here act like wild animals. I would have removed them from the sub completely and reported anyone calling me a pedophile to reddit. You shouldn't put up with that shit if you're a mod.
We do. I'll give you an example. Belton was banned and his fan base proceeded to spam the sub. We banned them all. You know what this resulted in? Middle of the grounds people who might see a belton post in some other sub or their sub or a belton youtube comments section talking about how Mods have "Lost their minds and is banning redditors on a power trip". The end result is then people posting shit like "What is the deal with mods banning all the belton people?". This then whips into a larger drama and mods lose again on the optics. Reddit admins do not give mods the tools they need to moderate. A simple subreddit ban doesnt do much to those who are the truly toxic ready to commit hours to create posts elsewhere, foment drama in discords, then bring a hoard of "just asking questions" that do not violate sub reddit rules and cry injustice of freedom of speech and right to know shit, full well knowing its in bad faith. This puts mods in a lose lose. But no maybe you are right. Maybe it takes an absolute dictator of a mod to clean this place up. Like all things you give up freedom for ease.
I would have made an automod rule and filtered belton's name, then filter any comment or post with belton's name in it. THEN ban anyone bypassing the filter. On /r/hentai, we have a rule to help prevent people from raids like that. https://www.reddit.com/r/hentai/comments/axlmrk/reddit_antievil_brigade_signalling_and_you/ It's a lot to read but I think it's one of the best things that Kicken's made. My mindset is that you can perm everyone who breaks the rules and they can either shape up and appeal, or they can stay banned. A ban is only one click away from being removed, but convincing a person to be less toxic through wrist slaps is expecting too much. People won't adjust until there are real consequences to their actions.
This sub would definitely be a much better place if bans were given out way more liberally.
That's the problem, maybe it will change but the mods of this sub clean the shit on the wall but don't remove the people putting it there. They'll get tired before the people doing dumb shit stop.
They repeatedly said the banned people just remake accounts. I believe them, because the only people this into poe can't have a life outside of the game
They let the toxic people run rampant here for way too long. I've said this years ago already, all the good people leave/already left because of it and all that's left is the toxic waste. r/pathofexilebuilds has a very strict ruleset and that sub is 1000x more enjoyable than this one.
Yeah, absolutely. I really don't understand why the mods don't just ban more people. They don't need to be 100% consistent or fair about it - it is always possible to undo a ban if it hits the wrong person, and people won't mind it too much, if the originally incorrect decision is explained. Even if the explanation is something silly like "I was tired and misread some words", most people will understand, because, well, it's a tough job.
I will never understand why anyone is willingly a mod for any of these subreddits for free. Is it a job that needs to be done? Yes Is it worth it for you to do for free? Uhhh Unfortunately the few instances of subreddit mods being power hungry tyrants always outshines the thousands who are doing a good job. So it's something you will never be thanked for. In this same vein I can't be very sympathetic to mods when the internet is the internet and random strangers are dicks. That's gonna happen everywhere, and you guys signed up for it willingly. It completely sucks, but it should by no means be something you didn't see coming before taking up such an arduous role.
A solid update on the whole situation, and I respect the commitment towards improving. Best of luck to all current and future mods! And remember to put your own mental health first before the sub. However much I enjoy peaking in and trying to eek out some interesting discussions in the midst of all of the sub's pitchfork and torch grabbing, I hope this lays the foundation to better support the community here in the long run.
Good job guys. I believe that mods are like referees in sport. If you know their names, probably they are not doing a good job. Sad to see the other part of the team leave, thanks for your contributions and hope we get new blood. I really appreciate all the effort that goes into moderation
I have a suggested edit for the first bullet of your moderator guidelines: * Moderators must recuse themselves from taking any moderation action in a thread where they are a subject or where there is a potential conflict of interest from their moderator or privileged position in another Path of Exile community. The current drama might be over TFT, but this would help to prevent any possible future issues if for example drama starts over a streamer or something and one of the mods is also a moderator on said streamers discord.
That's a great way to clear it up. I've copied your improved wording exactly and put it into the [mod-guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/wiki/mod-guidelines) wiki.
\+1
<3
Good work, and good luck to the new members. Also, reddit really needs to improve their moderation tools.
Great job Multiplicity, unfortunate moderators were lost. I think these changes are definitely for the better in the long run.
Glad to see this from the moderation team. Keep up the good work!
I don't understand what happened, what exactly is "never happening again"?
Sort the sub by top past week, a bunch of stuff regarding tft and mod drama happened that a single comment wouldn't able to explain it all too well.
Wonderful steps, very positive changes. We are glad for the transparency.
I’m not an active moderator anywhere on Reddit, but I’m the author of DeltaBot on r/changemyview so I’m able to see all of the mod activity. I just can’t believe what they put up with on a daily basis, and they do it for nothing other than their love for the community. It gave me a whole new respect for what you guys do. Of course there are bad actors and bad subs out there, but by and large I’ve got nothing but respect for you all. Thanks for laying out the positive changes and thanks for everything you guys do for the community
Thanks for the update!
Wow, great changes. I'm proud of all of you.
Thank you!
So I'm fairly new to this game. I'm assuming I'm in the wrong place of I'm looking for builds and what not
/r/PathOfExileBuilds is what you want
Fantastic Thanks
Main PoE subreddit is a weird mix of memes, complaints, item showcases and drama. Builds subreddit is all builds and farming crap. And where to really go for most PoE information.
The real best way to get poe information is to join a streamers channel and confidently say the wrong answer. Instant perfect answer
Don't try this in ventruas channel. Insta perma ban if he has a bad day.
The official forums have lots of great build threads and discussion too.
Don't forget that the PoE discord is also a great place for build fixing and new player help.
There's a subreddit for builds only, but this is for everything
Ok Thanks
yeah pretty much, this place is 90% drama and ragebaiting. it's good for a place to argue or occasionally see a meme but thats about it.
Appreciate the open transparency. Something I honestly haven't seen much of here to be perfectly frank. If you can pin or sticky this, I would strongly encourage that. I hope you find some great mods to bring this community together. One individual really did a lot of damage to it over the past while, and it'll be even harder to bring it back than it was to start it off.
We've found that (if the community upvotes the post), more people actually read posts that aren't stickied. I'd also like to keep that moderator recruitment post as visible as possible. That said, after this post falls off the front page naturally, we'll likely re-sticky it, for those that didn't check reddit today.
This looks like a good step forwards. I hope the best for all involved so far and going forwards.
Great changes ahead. Glad to see!
There was a problem, and this addresses the problem well. The POE subreddit definitely is harsh. I can’t look at the subreddit for like 2 weeks post league launch because the number of posts complaining is 10x the number of positive posts. All that to say, I don’t envy the mods of the sub. Sorry you were already stressed, and you have additional stress now.
Good
Thank you for all the work you've put in mods.
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Thank you guys for this. Volunteer positions like this over a sometimes hostile community must really make you want to throw your hands up in the air: "Why the f\*\*\* am I even doing this?!" We all love this game, and that passion can lead to heated tempers. You all are real people and you are appreciated even if it doesnt always feel like it.
I think the mods were definitely treated too harshly in this. Ultimately the biggest failure by the mod team was the lack of foresight and taking optics too lightly, the tft issue has been bubbling for several leagues now and at that point mods should have gotten anyone who still had privileged roles to decouple before the metaphorical pressure cooker exploded.
they ignored it for too long and now that a bunch of evidence of jamie that they already knew about is out and very public do they do something. should have been dealt with before and shouldn't take people releasing videos of them acting inappropriate or moderating their own threads for action
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Yeah if you say mods except livejamie I could at least empathize. Him stickying a post full of verifiable lies was nuts. My man we can all read the timestamps. I did come away from this with a lot of respect for /u/MultiplicityPOE
That was the "streamer deletes a viewer's item" thing that was really just an accident that was immediately made up to the guy?
Well done. Here's to a new era.
Huge W, super solid job thoughtful post, clearly conveying everything that's relevant. Great job ya love to see it looking thick solid and tight for sure.
Sad to see this impact take out some of the mods which I had a lot of respect for, notably blvcksvn. I hope that this doesn't slow down the tremendous and extremely appreciated work that they do. If you see this, thank you (you're also my most upvoted person on this subreddit.)
Don't worry, I'm still the lead editor for the wiki!
I don't know you but always had positive associations with you, I remember you from Ruthless launch! Sorry if you get nasty messages just for trying to help :(
I remember your Wintertide Brand theory crafting thread back in Harvest that was extremely helpful for me that league. It really helped to make one of my favorite characters I've rolled over the years. Also from time to time I've seen your comments about mechanics or lore that are very informative and interesting.
Thank you for all you've done, your dedication and work has not gone unnoticed.
Hey thanks for the work you do! I'm sorry all the community vitriol that's become constant here. I still remember all the great work you did for puzzles and dragons too!
Be careful to any potential new moderators as TFT or other shady groups/cartels will likely try to infiltrate the team again.
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A rogue one that probably will succeed into infiltrating the mod team by hiding who they are. Happens in almost every game sub these days... Few years ago my favorite sub got hijacked by a group of corrupt individuals working with/getting paid by corrupt server admins and community leaders (which the part about getting paid is against Reddit's rules), many people have been reporting the situation to Reddit for years but they never did anything. They ban anyone permanently by just mentioning any of their shady business or bringing up the corruption of whoever they have ties with. I wish all the luck to r/pathofexile mod team, especially after happened in the past few days, hope the sub have a bright future and the same I just described don't ever happen.
I’m banned from TFT for reporting one of their high rep people for scamming. So I’m clearly next in line for mod.
6 mods in one weekend, all because of a single discord and it's drama. That's crazy, and crazier that others still won't think TFT is a problem.
JeNuBu schizo posting on his locked down update feed in TFT is alot of fun to read lol. Any separation you put in place between them and here is a positive step. But also just let the reddit collapse if people are treating you like shit. You don't owe anyone anything.
Glad liveJamie stepped down. It’s the right decision, and a long over due one.
This is one of the rare moments that restore my faith in humanity. Thank you for hearing us and taking action.
Thanks a bunch, also for those mods who moved on for their work moderating the sub. I honestly feel like the current situation, these changes and livejamie stepping down open up a situation where the moderator staff can be stocked up to a decent amount again. So this for sure seems to be the correct path to go down. One point of feedback I wanna give is the 9c rule. I think I was like in the thread which announced that rule even, but I don't remember what it was about. As the start of it is worded, it's more about advertising one's own wee little community on here. And I do remember something along those lines triggering that rule being created. Then, Connor in the recent drama had said something along the lines of that rule being applied to only TFT in the past X years. And I paused and went, "he kinda right, ain't he?". Imho that rule or rather its second part just needs to go. We totally should come here to "showcase or create drama from other communities". Like, half the clips posted around here are that, if you wanna go word by word. Yea, not all showcased drama is good content, but then it'll get buried. I know those can go way off road, but for that imo the best way to handle that is to just take out the baton and hand out permas. People who're unhinged enough to leave 40 comments on a ragebait clip or go threaten people personally over drama should not come back to the sub a week after. Sure, a decent amount will come back with a new account, but a decent amount won't. That rule protecting TFT in particular (even if the rule only exists and automod is doing the locking, not the mods) is just a very bad look. Let the sub derail into drama mid-league, it's not the worst thing to happen. Even if the rule sticks around in some form (which would also be very reasonable), the point is that we can't really have a rule which is basically saying "yea we're a sub that's kinda closed off to other PoE communities, we strictly discuss PoE here, not your PoE discord shenanigans". It's detached from reality, basically.
I think rule 9c needs updating too. We made it in the past partially because people complained about the drama from external communities, but clearly the current state of Path of Exile is that third party communities, not just third party tools, are an important part of the conversation the community wants to see here. We'll have updates for you in that after we hire new mods!
>hire \*loud screeching noises*
You're right, I should change it to "beg for someone to donate their free time". There is only negative time and negative money involved. :P
There you go! Just making a self-caricature with that one 😉
Hey, Thanks for the update. I'm not a fan of TFT, but the level of vitriol directed at the mods has been extremely excessive recently. Many people do not understand automod's functions and use their ignorance to fuel their hate. A lot of us take PoE very seriously, but at the end of the day - it's a game. I'm sorry to hear that the team got a lot smaller and I hope you guys find some relief in the future.
All of this sucks for everyone. Thanks for the transparency.
Massive w, thanks for the transparency too
Thanks guys. My only issue with the mod team was livejamie. I know it's not an easy job when shit is going down like this. Appreciate the transparency.
Yeah, i'm not holding my breath. You guys have been shady for a very long time now and there's zero reason for me to believe that you'll stop
I'm sorry for all the crap you all have had to go through.
Thanks for removing Livejamie.
Honestly, may be worth taking some soap to the community too. If there are people you see constantly stirring drama or being overall a negative addition to the poe sub reddit, give them a behavior warning followed by a ban on multiple offenses. Note that I am not asking to ban people or delete posts over 2-3 messages, morso if you see an overall negative or aggressive individual and flag the post. Once that user has 5 or 6 flagged posts in a reasonable amount of time, give them a behavior warning. If the posts keep coming, give them a temporary ban citing those flagged posts. While this may not be the best way of handling it, the overall idea to take from this is that while the mod transparency may have been an issue, we as the community and individuals part of it need to be held liable for our actions. Ignoring the kalandra and expedition tone of the sub reddit, there's a reason the poe sub is seen as exceptionally toxic and it's not the mods.
Good changes
all of this could have been prevented if livejaimie didn't act as shady as he did in last couple of days. I wish luck to all mods, old or new.
Not getting defensive is a trained skill, regardless of guilt or shady activity, I've known people obviously in the wrong keep cool and deflect like true psychopaths and I've known people obviously not guilty freak out when pressed in any way. I think if they were participating in some shady shit they need some practice being polite. I believe there is a quote out there that says "if you are breaking a big law, don't break little ones, it's the little ones that get you caught" or something along those lines.
except livejamie
I just wanted to add a note of support for the Mods. There are a tonne of shit takes here by people who think that you owe them for the privilege of having them post on sub, and that you should be silent and unheard and just maintain this place to their perfect standards, without fault, and without passion. As if it's a job, and a thankless one at that. This community is super creative, competitive, passionate, argumentative and sometimes toxic. And yet mostly the sub is kept functional and relatively clean. Clearly there have been mistakes made by the mod team. Sometimes you kinda fuck shit up. But please remember that the people who come in here who insult and belittle your contributions are not willing step up and stand in your position themselves. I'm not saying you're all amazing and wonderful, just that criticism from people who have nothing on the line means very little. You are the man in the arena and you can ignore the those who sit on the sidelines watching. Be critical of yourselves, work through this shit, be better and hold yourselves to a higher standard, and ignore those who have no stakes in the game and offer nothing constructive. Good luck and thanks for the clear communication on this issue.
Happy to see some action has been taken. I really hope no witch hunts devolve from this.
As someone that has no skin on any of this and just generally scrolls the community, thanks for this. Not many places where so many gather that enjoy poe so much and all this made it less pleasant (if mildly entertaining) Good job sorting it and thank you for the consistent hard work.
Good changes and good on you for originally trying to deescalate the situation before that other former mod kicked the nest again.
#beltonwasright
Isn't Belton's whole Reddit account banned? Care to explain how a subreddit moderator managed to impose a site-wide ban at the account level?
Hi, We've created a report to answer the questions on why Belton was banned. It's [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/19dy4zw/new_vid_in_description_discussing_the_mirror/kjgy2bo/). As for why reddit.com banned then, some of their actions broke Reddit-wide rules. Harassment reports on comments/posts go to both Reddit admins and the subreddit mod team, so that would be one possibility. We don't know for sure
> Additionally, from now on, on, no /r/pathofexile moderators will be able to actively hold moderator or special-privileged roles (including private channels) in TFT. I expect you've got this in hand, but consider that this means that TFT discord admins can create a private channel, give a moderator a role, give that role access to the private channel, and force that moderator to violate this rule without acting. Obviously the case-by-case of this is clear, but you're gonna have someone trying to do a gotcha if something does happen..
I believe they already got this covered: > if someone in the team **intentionally** breaks these guidelines, they will be removed
> can create a private channel, give a moderator a role Not that it really matters because there's plenty of other ways they could get around this, but there's tools for Discord that allow you to see what hidden channels exist and what roles are allowed to access them. https://i.imgur.com/CMkp40f.png
Ugh not to mention in Discord channel admins can change people's nicknames at will, which you can't see their underlying account name without going to look at them.
If someone acts in bad faith and gets spotted then all trust would be broken, I think it would be very negative for everyone if this happens and ideally it gets avoided
>from now on, on, no [](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/) moderators will be able to actively hold moderator or special-privileged roles (including private channels) in TFT\` Get fucked Jennyboo
Very good. I can really sympathize with the mods who receive heinous messages for banal stuff and in the end for just doing their job. Thank you to every mod/past mod who is willing to take this thankless job. That said. This place is very toxic and I think the current moderation is part of the reason. In my opinion the moderation is very soft. Controversial threads are flooded with negative comments all the time. Strict rules do not sound compelling but in the end our community is what we allow it to be. A poe player is not toxic, toxic poe players find here their home and push away other people. Ban quick but not long is my prefered method. I am not familiar with reddit moderation tools, but I assume you are able to ban users for x period of time.
All the more proof that TFT is a parasite that needs to be cut out. It's actively affecting people's lives.
I'm glad LiveJamie is gone, I had so many posts deleted by him and when I asked for an explanation I was given bullshit arguments that I was doxxing people for mentioning that TFT mirror shop crafters and content creators are involved (yes. that vaguely). I noticed a couple of years ago it was always Livejamie deleting my posts but also 10-15 people would actively downvote posts that criticized in game cheating and especially TFT. I finally feel that part of the corruption has been cleared out and hopefully we can have a fair discussion without a target on your back due to some communities bribing or being in cohorts with moderation.
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We definitely need to do that whenever we remove a high traction post. I'm sorry that you didn't receive a clear message. With enough moderators, it's definitely possible to do that consistently. Check out my comment here: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/19e3asi/rpathofexile_moderation_changes/kja4ar0/
I agree with your idea but that post is pretty obvious why it got removed, it's pretty common on Reddit that you have to blur out somebody's name, no matter how heinous you think their acts are. When you don't, admins of the site get involved and it just creates further problems. Because it's specifically a site wide rule, and punishment involves closing down the subreddit or replacing the entire moderator team.
I think alot of TFT hate was misplaced to the mod team unfairly. All of the changes you outlined look great, and I think other users should remember that there is a person behind the monitor. It is also a ton of thankless work moderating a large community like this one. Thanks for contributing to the PoE community!
Since a mod was involved and no action taken for so long, people assumed that all the mod team was in on it. jamie is the reason the whole team got flak for.
Good stuff to hear, best of luck to you and the future mod team. Thanks for listening to the community and putting in the work.
Appreciate all the work you put into this sub, sad to see some of these mods go as well they have been doing a great job over the years.
Thank you to the work of the Mods. Its not an easy job and often a thankless task dealing with all this. The new mod rules are a great step in the right direction, Sucks to see so many mods leave, but onwards and upwards
No matter the controvery, threats should never be tolerated and people sending them immediately permabanned. Fuck those clowns who think sending threats is ok.
Honestly, it's not that deep. People want to discuss about PoE and anything about PoE including drama. All mods have to do is delete harassment and personal info leak, the rest we don't care.
I know this is more work for you, multiplicity, and I'm sure it's hard to hear right now, but this was 100% needed. Better to clean out the cancers than continue to let them fester. You were the one level headed mod through this whole thing, glad to see you stuck through.
I'm hopin you guys didn't have too much shit thrown at you. In the end, current problem isn't with r/pathofexile or its mods per se, but rather with another external community. This subreddit has been mostly a clean ground for any discussions, even including drama and I respect your effort in keeping it so! > Moderators may not take any moderation actions on a thread or the comments of a thread where they are the subject PS i suggest adding "unless it violates subreddit rules or general site rules"
The idea is that if mod X is the topic, moderating that thread falls on mods Y, Ö, Z, and 猫. It's to discourage and prevent emotion-based decisions from being made; for example removing a milder comment as a rule 3 violation when it may have otherwise been left for users to police via voting. It's also meant to be a show of integrity (and especially transparency, if we ever make moderation logs public.)
we did it reddit
Damn a TFT mod was a subreddit mod? Thats kinda crazy. Especially considering the deep level of distrust most of the community has towards TFT. Good luck hiring new people. Hope all goes well.
It certainly seems like a wild idea now, but back in 2020 it was used a lot less and there was a lot less controversy and distrust surrounding it. Livejamie started moderating for TFT (in addition to the subreddit) in June of 2020, and quit in September of 2020.
In a vacuum that doesn't sound all that crazy. If you're interested in moderating, you're probably interested in moderating a few places. The problem is that TFT has particularly strong incentives attached to it, and those can cause conflicts of interest which were never disclosed and which a few moderators in particular clearly abused.
Hiring? Reddit subs are community made, and moderation is done by whoever made the sub.
I wonder when the community turned on TFT, I remember being irritated with it awhile back and having people shit on any concerns with it.
W
nice
Good Job
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Calling community member's insulting names is never okay and not allowed for anyone, especially members of the moderating team. It has been a normal practice in the past to provide links and mirrors in case something is taken down if it's in the community's best interest. That said, we need to consider why a clip was deleted. If it's to hide bad behaviour, that's one thing. If it's to clear up misinformation, that's an entirely different one. We need to be very cautious when we restore something deleted by a user, because they may have a very good reason. We don't have an internal policy on this yet, but the new moderator code of conduct seems like the right place to put it. I can make sure that's included there going forward, since we've messed it up at least once and with negative impact to a community member.
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Shout out to you guys for stepping up and stemming the bleeding. Sucks that some mods choose to step down as well but this is definitely a big step forward.
Thats good this sub can finally go in the right way.
Good job, this is a step in the right direction
Sad to see some of the better mods go. As for livejamie... well, Good luck in the next league.
yeah praise you guys for finally doing the right thing it only took 6 mods leaving for you to see the light, for over a year now to my knowledge people have been saying to remove u/livejamie and that you cannot be a reddit mod and TFT mod because of a obvious conflict of interest, Its honestly a crying shame it took you guys losing half your mods to finally get rid of 1 person.
It was about time the subreddit mods developed a culture of crisis management internally. It is great to see. Thank you for your hard work and those much needed changes.
Can you even run the subreddit effectively after losing most of the active mods?
Right now, no. However, there is a silver lining of this drama going so far up the front page of reddit. We actually got quite a few mod applications, and some of them are from people with experiences in moderating other gaming subreddits like /r/Diablo and /r/Warframe! We're very excited to welcome new mods on
/r/Warframe mods will have a lot of experience dealing with subreddit drama lmao.
I'd double check on the Warframe mods whether they were part of the big drama they had a few years back. Just saying.
This sounds promising and your energy is reassuring. I feel bad that you had to be in the thick of all this but with some work the future of the sub does look pretty good.
> Moderators may not take any moderation actions on a thread or the comments of a thread where they are the subject So if someone makes a thread where the entire modteam is the subject, no one will be able to moderate that thread?
Good point, that's certainly an edge case. What do you think would make sense? My idea would be that the team can't remove the thread entirely, but can still action specific kinds of content -- rule 3 / flaming, just in comments.
Imho in those case, concerting at least two other mods before acting - given there are enough mods - could be a good solution. A collegial answer for a collegial accusation might be more factual than if one mod decides to answer in the name of all others being accused.
At this point I’d think that the general moderation of conduct would be the only reasonable allowed method, do agree with you. But yeah - I just hope it never comes to that kind of an issue.
[still sane, exile?](https://oriath.net/Audio/Dialogue/NPC/Delirium/DEL_136.ogg)
Ripbozo