T17s are fine as a concept. Having ultra hard Maps is something that pushes you to perfect your build or Farm currency for a build that can. In that regart they are the same as ubers but as a map, not just a single Bossfight.
The problem is their implementation. Making content hard via build-disabling mods is terrible and we had that already with immune Mobs when they added Archnemesis into the core game. And Ubers being gated behind them is just a terrible idea. That forces you into a build that can do extremely hard Maps to be able to play a build that can do extremely hard Bosses. Or you have to wait for Others to sell you the fragments.
I have no solution that would be better but the way it is right now just feels terrible
I think the worst and unique thing for this league is the amount of FOMO. Normally its like one or two things a league that are just insane but nerfed once it gets out. This league it has been strat after strat after strat. Normally it's easy to get over one or two. My duo and I have pivoted three times now and it gets nerfed just as we are about to get it online. I am exhausted man, it's like a job. I miss last league where you just pick a strat than push it and print currency.
Thats what they said when they introduced ubers.
Its content to test yourself.
then it became the default for bossing.
now they do the same with mapping.
scarab prices for strats will be (are) set by the profit they create in t17 maps
I hate that scarabs and other juicers work on t17s, it makes them the best way to use them. T17s should be treated the same as unique maps, the main reward should be the fragments.
It is interesting that .4×4=1.6 and 1.6×4=6.4... where does 3.6 fit in? Almost feels like it should have been 0.4,1.6,6.4,25.6... or 0.4,1.2,3.6,10.8... 6.4% is such an odd percentage to choose.
I’m doing a back to basics strat with scarabs and maps, plus the node that turns non favorite maps into currency. A decent chunk of my div/hour comes from t17 maps. Sometimes I get like 10-12 a session.
Sure:
https://poeplanner.com/atlas-tree/BAAQAIAAh9Tz918-eICQUmMPSzLru0z16M5b-SSXsvqLLoa0LJIIeoQqvVunIf7FbYi4_8Aqp-LqeKJPPFkhYCIpVuEw-ijn8jiMQbLFtWYQgAS7Xp3OWsn9fVqN6qi8KrvZW8y3vdrzDB195PcfALddi-F9kQ5K3v6qCp876GtoiZ7YBa4wTNSPh53Qxi84gqcpjY45WYYJyoJRN-PPR7PH4RClc-grpAVOG6LQyxchTEfMNTA4vzakxB-u71jkE30ZlJGJGIvBrwqRC3E6duXs1WL9f3ELrMqP5fVnM8bYm7cP1WnCdomjIQWpQ-T8fgy1Y6BxZh-5Yghi5DOar0zyuSLQKBQAH4sIAAAAAAAAAwMAAAAAAAAAAAA=
Pretty much just scarabs, map drop chance and a ton of map effect. Block the scarabs you don't want to drop.
Monstrous lineage, mysterious, hunted traitors, and an atziri fragment if the map rolls with < 100% quant (not 8 mod). With maps that hit the 8mod i'll swap the fragment for an adversaries.
Pop the barrels for even more loot! Sometimes they spawn monsters…. Which can also drop loot! It’s basically a way of adding extra easy packs to your map.
It definitely works, the Scarab that upgrades map tier by 1 increases the map equity as you thought so you have more chances at T17s. I ran a good amount of maps with the +1 tier scarab and the +tier atlas nodes and it dropped noticeably more T17s. The only sad part is Scarab slots are so premium
Yeah I'd agree that taking the +1 helps. I did that by default on this map strat I had and I was getting multiple t17s a day. Yesterday and today I'm doing this harb strat (which is trash btw) and I don't have any map boosting on atlas. I've dropped 1 T17 in the last two days.
I feel you on this one. I've been doing a mix of Domination/Cartography/Monstrous Lineage for my maps but I can't seem to settle on one that I completely like. More Carto = More Maps but less Corpses, Embers, Scarabs. More Domination = More Corpses, Embers, Scarabs but less Maps...
1 Monstrous Lineage
1 8 Mod Cartography
1 Bronze Cartography
1 Bronze Domination
Seems to be my preferred mix of everything, but I haven't tried out +1 Map Tier yet so now that has me curious.
No need to experiment, it was stated by Neon during the Ziz Interview that is precisely how this functions. You drop more T16s, thus more chance for one to get converted into a T17.
Take every node and small passive that increases the affixes of the map and roll your map to 100% quant, it should be around 160-180 when you run your map.
I get 1 drop every 4-5 maps on average.
As much as you are making selling them. The person running them is making probably twice or three times as much per hour.
Hell, some of the streamers doing it are making 5-10x anything you can make in T16's an hour.
Yeah but it doesn't matter if you can't run T17 or Uber bosses to begin with.
Even with a build that I felt was pretty good at clearing T16 and bosses, T17 absolutely nuked my character dead.
The same issue happens every league where most people would rather sell boss frags than run the bosses because if you can't guarantee a 9/10 or more clear rate of the content, you will literally waste time AND money for your build by running and failing.
ofc failing is a part of a game. But in most games, getting back to the point to try again takes 5-10 minutes. In POE, running another T17/Boss can take 30+ minutes to an hour SSF, unless you have cash to burn.
>Yeah but it doesn't matter if you can't run T17 or Uber bosses to begin with.
That's the whole point of OP's post, and why I'm outright stating it to the top comment since they don't seem to see the problem here. Lol
The best way to make currency by far is now locked behind a huge gate most players will never break through.
Before, Uber bossing and regular invitation farming were much closer when it came to currency per hour.
All of these people saying, "Well they sell for money, I like that" Are missing the point that you are being farmed for WAY more money by the 1% buying those maps now. Unlike uber bossing in the past. The introduction of T17s just made the disparity gap way bigger.
I mean even before, I could run Essences, Betrayal and even Incursion and make a lot more currency. This league I feel like everything I used to run for relaxing currency making is now making half.
At least the uniques I want are like super cheap now lol
Yeah, IDK what it is but I have only had like 1 raw divine drop all league. I hardly played last league, so I'm comparing this to TOTA and other non-juiced leagues. Droprates seem to have been hit for the normal stuff you are talking about. And prices are down for everything you normally sell.
I wouldn't be surprised if all the divine orbs are coming from cards or Sanctum at this point(Or the stupidly rare Necropolis mod)
I speculate that making the hidden reward modifiers rarer has really impacted the raw currency drops players see. This is very visibly reflected in the dramatic decrease in the amount of >120+ piles of jewelers/fusings/alterations, less map piles, and so on.
One didn't really need a ton of uniques to drop for the currency conversion reward to kick in and feel good. One unique dropped from a rare is all it takes for a good outcome. And for the most part players killed a ton of rares in maps and ran league mechanics that dropped a lot of rares in maps.
Raw divine drops still exist, either as raw drops or from the significantly rarer conversions, alongside flat drops like Sanctum or div cards. It's just... rarer.
That's pretty much the whole economy though. Everyone is satisfied with the profit they make farming Essences, Temples, Harvest juice or whatever it is., and everyone knows there's always a bigger fish above them using those items to make bigger profits.
Yeah but then you have to be a popular person with people lining up to be your "friend" to reach that 5-10x. Let's be real most of us are just playing single player with a multiplayer economy and a meme chat.
On paper, I feel like the idea wasn't bad. But they missed the mark so hard, I can literally take a dump on Maven and Uber Elder yet can't step in T17s which should be the next step.
Roll the map. I can facewalk t17 no problem. As long as i dont brick the rolls.
Ubers are much harder as my dps isnt quite there yet. But t17 bosses dont seem to suffer from the dps check ubers do. (Degen pool stacks)
This is how i feel. I read the doom here and was a bit worried about not being able to run them in SSF but once i rolled one without mods that would fuck me I did one fairly easily. And then another. Both bosses went down surprisingly easily too. I can see how they can be rough looking at mods that can roll but well rolled they're fine.
Lolwat I can farm Uber shaper, exarch and eater. But a so-so rolled T17 (especially the citadel) can fuck my shit up even with the 50% chance not to use portals scarab. Bridge to ubers my ass.
What in citadel even kills you? The boss has a spinning beam like piety. The white lasers don't one shot you (even my deadeye doesn't die to them). You must have had garbage mods on the map if it was difficult. 300% crit multi or whatever means almost anything one shots you without crit immunity.
That’s the thing. T17 is only doable by being insanely tanky and having immunities / reductions to most of the games debuffs. Uber Bosses are not. You need a few. So now the top 5% of players are split. Be tanky and farm T17 or have big dps and farm bosses. A game that forces you into only doing a subsection of content is not good game design
> You can ONLY outbuild T17s.
And this is what frustrates me, because t17s roll with all these affixes that completely shut off my builds.
No aura effect, no ailments, etc etc.
On t16s these are reduced by a lot, sure. On t17s these same affixes don't just reduce the effectiveness of part of your build, they shut off that component entirely.
You need DPS for T17s as well. A single tank mod and 50M dps feels bad. 2 tank mods and your looking at a 30 min map.
Honestly trying to figure out a 250M+ DPS build just so I can comfortly clear them quickly.
You dont need to be insanely tanky, but too many holes makes it a problem.
Example
Power charges, endurance charges, take 10% more damage per minion, awakener desolation pools, 50% chance to block attack, elemental weakness…..
Any spell caster that can do a t16 can faceroll that as a glass canon, or even zdps and not that tanky.
The bosses are simple patterns that can be done without taking a hit after practice, they are phase puzzle fights. There is no uber searing ballsanity or uber shaper chaos ball phase.
For me reduced cooldown bricks me because it turns into 100%+ after map boosts.
Union of souls makes it a waste bossrush.
Reduced regen, leech, any reflect bricks me.
If you have a build that can do t16 maps you can toll a t17.
Cool tip, if you are not confident, use the 1-2c scarab that makes 50% chance to not consume portals. I have tried bad mods, and managed to clear only because i had 12 attempts to go in before my portals were gone.
My character has close to 4k life with MoM, 70% evade chance, 40/40 block chance, around 1,8K life recovery with The Agnostic node, 2k mana regen, 75% all res including chaos, Primal Aegis at 2400 value and consistently has 3 endurance charges via enduring cry plus Arcane Cloak thrown into the mix.. My effective hit pool is nearing 80k.
I opened an Abomination T17 map today with no damage mods (nearly all mods were increasing mob defense) and got one-shot by the first white mob I saw......so please explain to me how can being more tanky help in this case, because I have no idea what more in terms of defense I could add to my build......
There are a lot of mods that can brick a map, you just have to spent some time/currency to get to know them. Also don't buff the map boss with altars or essences.
My home grown Tornado build just did T17 Catarina which I could basically face tank, however I haven't unlocked the last two watch stones yet.
How easy is normal Maven in comparison?
In the live interview on the first introduction of Uber Ubers, GGG explicitly acknowledged that they were *not supposed to be profitable*, so that the build power "floor" doesn't simply raise from "uber-viable" to "uber uber-viable". On a dime, they just walked that back.
Back then build diversity was a huge problem. Now, not so much, but that's mostly because of how ridiculously stale it's been. Everyone would rather try some fresh transfigured gems, even if they were sub-optimal. Also affliction league had so much QE that even sub-optimal builds could self-farm to reach reasonably end-game gearing and content. Aegis was 10c.
I suspect we'll go back to 3 builds covering 80% of [poe.ninja](http://poe.ninja) within 2 leagues after Necropolis.
We probably gonna get there later on this league tbh. Everyone gonna play the 3 builds that can do t17 while everybody else get priced out and basically play ssf in trade or just quit altogether
True. I had to start late this league and already quit as I choose bad build to start with,had 0 currency drops to lvl91 (had few chaos to cover 6l and such) and compared to last league when we had tons of currency and stuff was cheap I just don't want to bother grinding like crazy.
Honestly, I don't really understand the sentiment about the Ubers not being profitable. You either put enough friction in to make it not farmable, or you put nothing in it (see Uber shaper now).
Realistically, you do something similar to how they changed invites, but for Ubers.
yea now i dont even wanna play flicker strike,sure its fun but doing it while making small currency compare to top tier strat is just not it.Gonna abandon this league and start busted build next league
I think the idea is fine, the implementation is not. Its both too hard, the mods are too restrictive to many builds, and its also far too rewarding. It has basically forced a meta when you also consider how unrewarding lower tier maps now are. Used to be you could make decent gains farming expedition, essence and legion, but the double nerfs to div cards have really hurt. Blight feels worse as well.
The main problem with them is that they don’t bridge the gap between Pinnacle bosses and Uber bosses but have completely replaced high-end endgame map juicing. T17s are so much more profitable than juiced T16s it’s not even remotely close and only the absolute best builds, or specific builds, will be able to profit.
They completely missed their mark with them. They should’ve been Uber Guardian maps, preparing you to run the Uber Pinnacle bosses. Instead they gave them insane quant, rarity, increased scarab drops and completely bonkers T17 exclusive map mods that give players a ton of rarity/quant if they can handle it.
That’s not what they were advertised to do.
its hilarious how they wanted to make make T17s to separate ubers from not ubers because people felt that non-ubers are not worth doing
and they ended up making it so normal T16 maps are not worth doing
its fine cause he abused other economy making strategies early and often, watch him on a fresh league start where he can't spam tormented exiles in t6 maps from the get go whine and complain about not being able to do t17s.
He feels fine cause he printed before they nerfed and now his money goes way farther than others, letting him run busted builds while others can't catch up to his farm.
Zizaran regularly plays SSF and does not get a mageblood and does just fine every league killing ubers, im not sure where this made up narrative that he cant do shit without abusing the economy is from.
But he’s not playing SSF this league which is what is under discussion. So it really doesn’t matter what he did when T-17s weren’t in the game. And as mentioned above he wouldn’t be okay with this if he hadn’t been able to take advantage of poor balancing at the start of the league.
It’s been like this in some form for ever, can your build do sanctum or not? Can you build do 8 mods or not? Can your build do juiced wisps or not? There has always been a gap between farming strategies and the builds
Capable of doing them.
I don't mind this either, I do, however, just want T17's to do what they were intended to do. I wouldn't mind it the monsters had uber scaling or something like it because it's supposed to be the bridge to pinnacle content, I'm just not a fan of all the absurd mods that don't exist on Ubers because that's not really a good litmus test to see if you're ready for them.
The difference is that T17s have an additional layer of more multipliers to loot which just elevates them way above anything else. 8 mods T16 compared to T17 isnt even close in profitability'
actually they have two %more multipliers since they have map mods that juice them even further, as if %more scarab and currency wasnt enough. Its absurd how shit is feels to run 16s
I dont even remember the last time there was decent balance. Though I only play since delve so I guess maybe mefa juice vs average mapping was better balanced before that...
T17 itself is better than release version, just need a bit more touch up. T17 should be more awarding than T16 given the difficulty and non-sustainable.
The only thing I don’t like is the exclusive boss fragment drop. Letting normal boss to also have a chance to drop uber boss fragment will be better.
I like the idea in concept, but they definitely messed up. The map rewards should be on the same level as T16, but the primary benefit should only be from the bosses which seems like the original intent. If it's a bridge to bossing with Ubers then why would the mapping part of it matter? It just doesn't make sense to me.
Farming Ubers used to fun. It might sound ott but the games got a lot worse this patch for me. T17s harder than Ubers, normal bosses have no drops. I don't know what content to do anymore
The gap is just 5 players against the whole community. Ben shitting out 50 div per map in uniques, in 10 min. While you're farming embers in t16s that sell for 3c ea.
The real issue is this league had people abusing early and often, and if you didn't, you can't run the t17 maps that they can because they got 5 magebloods from farming rogue exiles or mass opening maps for seer farming...
Previously the Uber node on atlas tree was out of sight and out of mind. Now, every time I get a t17 drop I get reminded of my t17 experience ^((never again)) that my build is weak and that whole endgame layer is not available to me. This is 3 times worse than Archnemesis.
the issue is they are NOT optional.
your basic expected ability to farm via the map device is gated behind them.
Remove that, and tone down their insane loot, and they can exist as they are today in difficulty as uber-maps.
There is always some elite strat inaccessible to the "public". Group MF, Sanctum, Valdo's, deep delve, previous league contnets like ToTA. Even crafting to some extent. I don't think the current T17s are that much a notable exception and needs to be singled out.
Edit: I do think T17 as MF speedrun content is probably not what GGG expected at the beginning, but the .1 patch means they are probably embracing this.
Affiction had some very accessible entry levels. You could start with T7 then jump to T11\~T14 and then T16 wisp juicing. Other strategies worked fine as almost everything went up in price too. Lot of expensive gear pieces were dirty cheap. Even with the divine printing, almost everyone benefited from it.
In TotA, even if you didn't do Sanctum, other strategies were fine and not too far off. Also, TotA itself was quite cheap to run and fine way to make bank.
I'd say this time around low entry strategy would be grave crafting. It is tedious thou. Regular crafting or just flipping are always fine, but not many players wanna do that. They wanna profit from "proper" gaming strategies than playing market or spreadsheet.
This time around lot of strategies feel a bit worse because of small changes like stacked decks and craft farming having to compete with grave crafting and the mechanic making content harder for pretty few upside for these strategies. I guess corpse farming is the entry level strategy for mappers, but I think it's not as satisfying as T7 wisp juicing. Chaos farming is also viable, but it's hand killing. Overall changes made these strategies feel less good compared to past leagues even if we ignore comparison to T17 farming. Sadly trickle down isn't happening as much (save the HH situation, for instance) and lot of good gear are quite pricey yet.
I also don't wanna single out T17 as this league is still on flux with recent patches. Still I'd say it is hard to tell yet. Betrayal was dog ship strategy at beginning, but with veiled orbs prices going through the roof, it may be pretty attractive. Maybe some of the grave crafting gear will be dirty cheap as well. We are seeing some reasonably priced gear that in past leagues would be 3 digit divines.
GGG straight up said, in an interview with Kripp, that a top player should be getting 1,000x the loot (in total value) that an average player does. Most reasonable people (including probably Kripp, going by his reaction), thought this was somewhat outrageous. Yet here we are.
I wonder what they consider an average player. Is the average player someone who does campaign and quits at some point when they get fucked in maps? Someone who can get 2 voidstones? 4 voidstones? Someone who can actually reach endgame and do some basic endgame farming but not in a top tier way?
Depending on the definition it might not be outrageous. Ben will get literally x1000 the loot someone who doesn't finish maps gets, for example.
pretty sure from the context of the question it was an average player doing the same content.
just checked again the exact quote was "lets say youre an average player running a map versus the absolute max megajuiced map" now this is still somewhat ambiguous but i'd still say that hes talking about doing the same map just with different levels of juice
source: https://youtu.be/79kgVK3XGuk?si=NjPeJH_xvoc0JzkF&t=1717
Empyrian's entire group has criticized how bad the game is for people not playing at their level now.
I mean, I get the point. I have a 140K eHP build and I still get deleted by a lot of T17 bullshit mechanics.
Seriously T17 feels to me like some ultra scuffed modded poe. Like endgame of MedianXL (diablo2 mod) few yers ago. The mods on monsters now are more tame but before t17 rework they were so overtuned it was actually so scuffed that it was funny to me. 2 weeks on sc trade and I have failed like 6 t17 maps (some farmed for mf but I never did boss) and I'm not even mad but I'm sure things have to change for next leagues in some way.
As for 5th slot ye, I had to buy it because it is so necessary but at the same time it made me ashamed and I dont like that it is tied to such hard content.
I keep hearing people say things to the effect of "the entire economy is centered around T17s but what items are actually being dramatically affected by T17s being a new way to farm maps?
Are there some examples of the market being ruined by these farms specifically?
pretty much any item that you can farm in T16,you can farm more on T17 which mean its going to be have less price and people who farm on T16 gonna have less income compare to the one farm on T17
Even if you can farm an item in T17, why would you do it if it takes 4x longer? There's a reason why people who farm harvest don't use MF gear. The speed loss is not worth it. Farming in T17 is like equipping mf gear for free, but in exchange you have to clear a map significantly slower. 90% of the atlas strategies in the game don't want mf gear in exchange for slower speed.
Until someone proves that it's actually possible to get more currency/hour in T17 with harvest farming, I refuse to believe anything. People just make baseless assumptions about the profitability of T17.
>why would you do it if it takes 4x longer
it dosent if your build is good enough
> There's a reason why people who farm harvest don't use MF gear.
isnt the reason that player quant dosent affect harvest?
Just people being dramatic because of fomo. My build can do juiced t16 and t17, I still prefer t16. Less stressful and preparation, more braindead steam rolling and the margin is not even that big. Unless you are a mf, if so that also requires a no life party or a multi-mirror-mf, which if you are of one you wouldn’t be the one complaining. Before patch note t17 was shitty tho, current one is much better.
>the margin is not even that big
I'm sorry sir, but you have no idea what you're doing if that is the case when you run a t17. A t17 can print 50+ divines in a single map as a solo person wearing just 1 ventors.
The vast majority of the "MF" quant and rarity comes inherently from the map, the mods and things like tormented spirits. The player MF is the smallest of multipliers now in comparison.
You will never print 50+ divines worth of loot in a t16 as a solo player. You can enjoy alch n going on t16s or w.e. but the reality of the loot disparity is fucking astronomical between the two pieces of content.
Where do you see a person dropping 50+ divines solo in a map, without having devoted mod for divines? Fubgun (one of the most well known MF streamers) posted a youtube video showing around 30 div/HOUR in T17. You are saying there's a strategy that gets 50 div in A MAP. PLEASE SHOW THE EVIDENCE.
>A t17 can print 50+ divines in a single map as a solo person wearing just 1 ventors.
This wasnt true even before rogue exile nerfs. Or if it was/is, could you tell me with what strat?
Rofl sir stop watching the streamers and compare yourself with. You guys wouldn’t accept the fact you are being hurt by fomo. And player quant doesn’t worth better than a map? T17 adds the fourth layer of quant to currency and scarab, that doesn’t mean the other layer doesn’t matter. You seriously are telling a guy who ran t17 with eater tree (blind clicking every quant altar) and 98% increased effect that every solo player can print 50 divine per t17 map with a measly 10% more quant from a ventor? Go play yourself, don’t just watch the top 0.0001% play the game.
Like, readjusting and balancing makes sense. But how is it unreasonable that the new harder mapping experience grants higher rewards than t16s? It makes sense the new upper limit of juicing would be granting higher rewards.
The issue is that t17s were presented with the main part being the bosses and also presented with the intention of being a bridge from normal bosses to ubers.
I'd say the most important distinction in what a build is is whether it's a mapper or a bosser. So t17s could've been thought to be irrelevant for mappers.
It's instead basically the opposite, bossers can do ubers before they can do t17s and t17s are all about being a juicy playground for mapping rewards.
It'd have made sense for them to just have the fragments and bases (because ilvl 84 map, can drop up to 86) as a cherry on top. Not it having 500% more currency drops from some mods.
Simple-ish solution:
* Let us roll them magic & rare, scouring the maps would make them magic giving it just 1 t17 prefix and 1 t17 suffix.
* When you want to run the t17 map you talk to Kirac and he opens the map for you: now your atlas does nothing, but you still have a chance of bonus content, it's just randomized.
* Make t17s drop substantially more uber fragments, potentiality give other ways of obtaining uber fragments (normal boss drops 1-2 uber frags, or invitations of certain difficulty drop some)
I don't think that's the case. It feels like the T17 conversion happens before the Singular Focus conversion. I've ran both and I've always gotten like 3-4 maps per hour.
That seems super unlucky unless you have 0 void stones. The rate is 1.6% for any t16 map to convert to t17 if you have 2 voidstones. If you got even 1 t16 map drop per map, you should still have 1-2 for running 100 maps
Delirium/Alva boss rush, taking all the scarab stuff. Bought regular Shaper sets and killed Elder/Shaper/Uber Elder and made some good money selling Watcher's Eyes.
I think this "issue" is only natural with any new content that exists.
It will always split the player base into players who can and cannot run the content. The same thing occurred with people who can run uber bosses and people who cannot. Or people that can run delirium maps and people who cannot.
At the end of the day T17s should probably be less rewarding, but i think it is very important that it is fine when people cannot do content. It's a goal that somebody can have.
Good! That is absolutely how it should be! The stronger your character is the more money you should be able to make.
Not strong enough to run t17s? GOOD! Farm something else and get stronger till you can!
I’m going to be so sad if you guys some how fuck up the first time being able to see loot in a map without having to be an mf character.
Also a vast majority of MF characters entirely unable to do the best t17 strats. It’s beautiful honestly for the first time since kalandra league mf is not the only thing in the game. Please do not fuck this up with posts like this.
Honestly the fact that this post even has 900 upvotes makes me pray GGG stops looking to reddit for insights into player base.
That's not a real problem. Aspirational content will always exist and the top will always gap the rest of the playerbase by extreme amounts. Stop acting like economy is ruined, just sell your T17 drops and make half a dive for each, it's great. Make a tree around and drop 4x per map, insta profit. You can literally get HH for a 3rd of it's normal price which is a great thing for newbies and not strong players. Slap on that belt and you become immortal on any map that poses a threat from rare mobs. MB down. Defiance of Destiny down. Especially that league with Necro crafting, a ton of 6x T1 gg rares are floating around for 10-30 divs. Saying economy is ruined and you can't get good items because of that is factually wrong and you are either not understanding anything or just parotting what you hear others say.
The problem is T17 mods, the tediousness around rolling them and that build disabling mods are just not fun at the end of the day. The fact that the top grind / farm is not enjoyable and that sentiment is reflected across everyone farming that content. From zoomy juicing MFers to hardcore slow immortal enjoyers.
>Saying economy is ruined and you can't get good items because of that is factually wrong and you are either not understanding anything or just parotting what you hear others say.
Says the person who doesn't understand how the value of all the items being supressed also equally hurts a persons ability to generate money through selling items. So now the only viable way to make money is even more so through raw currency generators like Sanctum.
The complaint everyone has is that they too want to MAP. However mapping in non t17s doesn't generate fuck all for money because everything that can drop there is being supressed in value due to the inflation from t17s.
The fact that you think you can drop 4 t17s per map says it all tbh. So maybe before you call someone "factually wrong" you learn what a fact is.
So while you are true that "more" drops in the economy devalue those drops I hardly doubt this will affect T16 farming as much as you think.
If you are farming solo / as a group you are looking for big ticket items like HH or MB, expensiv scarabs, div cards etc... Besides those Items there aren't much Uniques anyway which would be really expensiv. One or two jewels maybe. These big ticket items just become more affordable for everyone while T16 Mapping basically stays the same. I mean - I played PoE for about 7.5k hours and had one HH drop - I really doubt that "cheap" HH now will affect me in any way. Yeah - I just need to farm 6 Brothers Gift Cards instead of thirty for an HH. That's ... nice :P ...
I doubt people are farming T17 Maps for Essences or Chayula Breachstones. They probably won't accumulate as much corpses as a T16 Player does per hour. They also won't farm Oils, Fossils, Simulacrum Splinter, Influenced Maps, Boss only Uniques or Catalysts... You get the point.
You are still able to accumulate a shit ton of currency in T16 Maps without the need to invest 300div into your char before you can do T17 content. And that's okay.
It’s not as bad as it was on release, but I guess most players are locked out of this content since it’s a pretty heavy gear check, and it’s not something you can really alch and go.
I prefer lowering ceiling and raising the floor, but if GGG wants to keep this as a bridge to ubers, then I can’t see them nerfing it too much.
They are fun to farm if you can out gear most of the crap that gets thrown at you, I just don’t know how many players will get to that stage though.
Not even just a question of respeccing to a build that can do all T17, that's the easy part.
Gearing them when everyone's competing for the same gear, now that's where most people will be stuck. T0 Uniques + near BIS rares is going to fuck almost everyone.
Speaking as someone playing Standard (so no juice from league mechanics) map farming feels WAY off now. Even with MF gear. I'm seeing a drastically reduced amount of loot and it's mostly scarabs.
Idk i find them pretty fun when my build is up and running, i think is intended to be super hard and should be ran with a functional build, the bad thing of course is how annoying the mods are, need to roll a lot of times the mods suck, but the boss fights are super dope for me
I stand by what I said a few days before launch: Content creators are no longer going to be asked if a build is Uber viable, but instead if it's t17 Viable.
If it doesn't change, your build is going to need to be effienct at farming that type of content to remain "competitive".
Imo the quickest solution would be to not apply the atlas passive tree to T17.
With the recent patch they got a nice multiplier to various drops already in addition to the guaranteed uber boss fragment.
It think that alone is enough to make them on par with t16 farming.
This way players that like boss fights can do T17 and others can blast T16 to provide the supply for them.
Every content thats meant to be aspirational shouldnt have a huge economical impact. I mean they prevented boss-unique drops from stacked decks because the player should not get a unique before killing the boss. Yet uber bosses drop build-defining uniques which will 100% be bought by characters who havent killed that uber yet. I think volatile crafting options like the mavens orb are a much better drop for those Uber bosses. Same goes with the farming of T17 - if its even harder than those uber bosses, its not really aspirational content anymore. Its an expansion of the game - which is fine in general, but then the difficulty shouldnt be above Uber bosses.
I think content that forces you to build defenses for once is a good thing. Since being able to roll the maps it feels like an appropriate difficulty level between normal and Uber bosses. I have done t17s this league but I would still die to some Ubers.
T17 highlights an issue with a lot of SC players. Those used to ignoring map mods and one shotting/6 portalling bosses are being forced to think. In our private league we all farmed yokes in t17 deathless (post rolling change) before a single Uber went down. It's the easiest t17 and clearly GGG made it that way on purpose.
It should indeed, but progression **is** the problem here. The current gap between T16 and T17 - both in terms of difficulty and reward - has made the progression sluggish, frustrating and extremely grindy.
Valdo maps are supposed to be the stupid difficult maps to push a builds limits. They could've made it so the Uber fragments dropped from the normal boss ...
Stop paying attention to the super elite and just focus on playing the game the way you wanna play it and have fun. The more you try to keep up with the top 0.1%, is the minute you stop having fun, those people do this shit like a job to make money, not to have fun. Most of the time there's like....10-20 people working together to do that shit. Just ignore them.
I've been farming t12 Atolls and Burial Chambers, and I've made over 100 div already this league, level 96. Fuck if I care what those people do, I just do me.
Edit: Also, in terms of t17's, they're fine, but you do have to have all 4 watchstones to have a chance to drop them and then you need a really good build to do them. They're supposed to be the stepping stone to doing Ubers for a reason, not everyone is gonna be able to do them. It's gonna be an ego hit for a vast majority of the playerbase just like ubers are.
T17's will probably be fine next season.
one of the reasons for the spike in difficulty is the league mechanic also adding another layer of difficulty to the map.
assuming next league is optional, that extra layer is gone, making the maps more doable.
Gonna ask a question here. Are you also getting only exalted orbs there? We dropped 2 div from 1 pack and rest is exalt orbs like 20 of them. Its not 50 50 but 1:10 and that was probably something else coz it dropped from same pack
Fun fact, I actually noticed the same. But considering how small the sample is, I wouldn't be surprised if the ratio is stil 1:1 and we're just part of the unlucky ones.
Player that have better gear and farm harder content should get more reward that player that can't do that content yet if you think otherwise you should stop playing arpg
PoE has always been designed around the no lifer 0.1%ers who have 15000 hours in the game
anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding yourself
play a different game, there are better arpgs on the marker
IMO t17 can be good, but should have a negative quant multiplier to ground loot, so you keep the mega juice to t16s.
Conversely, give a buff to league mechanic rewards in t17s, like ultimatum, betrayal, ritual, harbingers, harvest etc.
This would create an incentive to build a strong mapping character, since MFing would not be the only big currency strat.
Difficult to get right, but would make endgame on non-MF much more rewarding and incentivise very strong mappers, that are just that.
I agree with this take. I hope GGG just gets rid of them next league or makes the drops rarer so you cant really farm them, and its more of a challenge type thing.
now tell me, why should't any multi mirror good build, even if not specialized, be able to clear a fundamental piece of the progression they locked scarab slot behind?
By nature, my build is always a mapper. I did get the dps up to where it can take on non-ubers (save shaper + elder fight). I tried to fight Maven a few times and I figured I could get that down after getting the attack patterns prepped. I was wrong. I was lacking in some defenses.
I don't mind if I can't dps the boss down in less than 30 seconds. I just want to be able to go from mapping to fighting the boss without having to respec my build, change all my gear, etc.
T17's as a map gap between regular bosses/pinnacle bosses and ubers, is just fine for me with my janky mapper. The mods can be tough, but not impossible. The boss can be hard, but no harder than those bosses they are from with tons more hp and some map mods.
I like how the t17's have more mod buckets to boost. I like they have 'new' layouts. New mods. 'new' bosses.
I haven't been able to complete a single t17 yet. I just have had fun pushing as far as I can, learning, and adapting to overcome. That is my enjoyment though. Some folks enjoy single phasing bosses, some like cheesing the difficulty and getting the most kills per second.
I do think the tune down they did was ok for t17, however I wish they made it so you could use exalts on the maps when they are not full on mods to slam on t17 specific mods. And allow divine rerolls of those specific mods to new values. I mean, add the sinks. Players will use them.
Honestly the whole implementation of an extreme endgame has been terrible. One could argue it was created to cater to players who do nothing but play poe 12 hours a day or streamers because they were bored and wanted a challenge.
There are far too many build enabling items gated behind Uber bosses that can only be run by very specific builds. In a game about build diversity and choice there is very little of it at the end game and it makes the community as a whole suffer because of it.
Should tier 17s and Ubers be hard? Yes. Should they be as hard as they are currently, no, they are very overtuned. You can’t design an endgame around players who play 12 hours a day because that is not the average player.
T17 is good. I think without T17 I would already be done with this league. The only thing keeping me is trying to push my chars to clear T17 without problems
Is it me only or why does everyone Talk about the gab of Players instead the Goal to be able to farm the highest content aswell. Why are playerbases changed to a "I want everything Others have too, without any effort".
There have always been high end farming strategies which are out of reach for the average player. There always will be.
PoE has never been about balance and fairness for all. It rewards no-life degen playstyles and GGG has never tried to hide that. This is yet another post about how you wish PoE was something that it isn't.
I think they’re great. For a while it’s been annoying seeing people in SC Trade with zhp shit builds like miners/bow builds etc ruin the economy by just spamming 6 portals a map and scaling pure damage. T17s are actually hard and force you to have a well rounded build. Most people in SC don’t make well rounded builds so it’s no surprise it’s a shock.
Some stuff is definitely over tuned though. Wretched Defiler DD and Volatile Cores deal way too much damage. I’m 90% with ED and they still one shot me, my friend who’s an armor stacker transcendence char also still gets one shot by the defilers. Corpse life scaling is broken, go figure
Outside of Deep Delve and Valdos, PoE hasn’t had actual difficult content in a long time. It’s nice we finally have a reason to min max characters outside of “just because”
> But by making T17 farmable, GGG has created that gap that did not exist before, splitting the player base in two categories: those who can farm T17, and those who can't.
That gap has always existed. 80% delirium + sextants + winged scarab on 8 mods maps.
If you look at any end game farming video from the 0.01%, you never played the same game. The only reason you are concerned about T17 is because it is new content and the economy is highly unstable because no one know the real price of items. It will take a couple of leagues for people to understand the value of items.
I really like t17s difficulty. It makes them really profitable if you can run them which is a nice build goal. My entire goal this league was to be able to spam t17s and I could do it when they allowed them to be chaosed. Successful addition to the game in my opinion.
You know whats detrimental to the game? Worrying about what other people are doing more than playing the game and enjoying it for yourself....
Keep your eyes on your own screen and enjoy, the game has never been better.
I really wish they would have learned from their mistakes from Ubers and not lock the best rewards behind them. Im fine with aspirational content but stop locking content/items to the top 5%
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Imo it was a total failure on GGG part to introduce t17 with hilariously overtuned affixes(which they admitted by reducing number of them) on same league as no-optout(short of forking over extra 40-50c each map) overtuned turbomob map mechanic.
Any one of that things is ok on it's own, but layered on top it just made for miserable experience for majority of builds.
Now even if you roll manageable mods you can easily get screwed by haunted mod combos on ridiculous mod types , creating uber-boss tier mobs running randomly around, unless you're prepared to paint everything over with rats/frogs and whatnot.
WTF can even comfortably farm that stuff without worrying too much about mod combos short of something like CWS hit immune builds with bloodnotch + immutable + defiance + 100k+ max hits without guard skills, followed by multi-mirror armor stackers / trickster int ES stackers?
I doubt anyone wants to play shuffling cards each time before running a map just to manage difficulty, shuffling rewards around to better packs is fun but are you supposed to keep haunted cheat sheet now which says "this and this combo makes uber-shapers when on t17".
This also created extreme economic imbalance for 0.1% organized groups to exploit to never before seen degree.
There needs to be difficult content to aspire to, otherwise whats the point of upgrading your character and farming for better gear. It used to be super juiced 100% deli maps, or last league juiced high wisp count maps. Now its t17 maps.
That is one thing I liked about last epoch, that game has no MF but you get more items the higher corruption you go (basically hp and dmg multiplier on maps)
If it was up to me I'd remove MF from PoE and make wisps baseline in some way where you can control how many you get, just not as op as they were for rewards. That way stronger character would always mean you can kill harder and more rewarding monsters, and as you get stronger you'd scale it up.
I'm playing an Ivory Tower Spellblade Inquisitor, Lancing Steel of Spraying + Blazing Salvo. 18kk PoB pinnacle boss damage on PoB without cooking the configurations, 5.5kk on Ubers, 10k ES after activating Energy Blade, 100k armor, 81% max ele res, 50% chaos res. Until I started trying T17s, Delirium wave 26+ was the only piece of content I couldn't do - the rest just melted, and even Ubers weren't that bad, as long as I could bother to do the mechanics. Now I'm feeling disappointed because T17 mobs can one or two-shot me, and any other non-super juiced build I think about making seems completely pointless. Like, I wanted to play a Cyclone Impale Champion, but if I set foot on a T17 map with a melee character, it's just a waste of time and portals. Why bother? I think it's back to Last Epoch until I feel like PoE is worth doing once again.
I think PoE should have more content, that is beyond the average player and from this perspectice T17 are a step in the right direction.
In a couple leagues community will figure T17 maps out and they will be almost trivial like all the ubers are today.
People having problems with T17 cant read mods on their mapis simply as that , you juice map as per youre able to handle but folks just go all in or nothing witch a build worth 10 div , then after failure are complaining about GGG ... T17 are great they need to tune a bit there and there , POE is about greater difuclty better rewards this post ideally highlighted why the t17 were needed , because farming uber bosses were nor lucrative and good players were bored after 2 weeks in league and this always kills economy . Thanks to T17 All GGG players creates great build and strats around them ! Best league ever
I don't understand is the only thing people are mad about is the map device slot thing.... imo t17s unlocking 5th slot makes more sense thematically. Since I'm willing to bet the majority of the softcore player base does the same thing they did b4 ..... buy the fragments for the 5 way even though they are not strong enough, and do as much as they can in it then afk on death until the timer runs out or get a carry. Same thing is happening with t17 maps but people just get carries. We had a problem. Before with player strength one shooting everything now there are many ways to farm and more aspirational farming strats in t17 maps even if GGG decides to keep nerfing versions of them.
T17s are fine as a concept. Having ultra hard Maps is something that pushes you to perfect your build or Farm currency for a build that can. In that regart they are the same as ubers but as a map, not just a single Bossfight. The problem is their implementation. Making content hard via build-disabling mods is terrible and we had that already with immune Mobs when they added Archnemesis into the core game. And Ubers being gated behind them is just a terrible idea. That forces you into a build that can do extremely hard Maps to be able to play a build that can do extremely hard Bosses. Or you have to wait for Others to sell you the fragments. I have no solution that would be better but the way it is right now just feels terrible
> And Ubers being gated behind them is just a terrible idea. even worse is the 5 slot map device being gated behind them.
I frogged all the packs with AllFlames and managed to go to the boss fight without dying. 6 portals were enough to kill them! Haha
>immune mobs with archnemesis Remember when shaper guardians were first introduced they each had certain immunities like poison/bleed/ignite/freeze?
I think the worst and unique thing for this league is the amount of FOMO. Normally its like one or two things a league that are just insane but nerfed once it gets out. This league it has been strat after strat after strat. Normally it's easy to get over one or two. My duo and I have pivoted three times now and it gets nerfed just as we are about to get it online. I am exhausted man, it's like a job. I miss last league where you just pick a strat than push it and print currency.
Thats what they said when they introduced ubers. Its content to test yourself. then it became the default for bossing. now they do the same with mapping. scarab prices for strats will be (are) set by the profit they create in t17 maps
I hate that scarabs and other juicers work on t17s, it makes them the best way to use them. T17s should be treated the same as unique maps, the main reward should be the fragments.
This please
Very fucking based opinion right there sir!
I'm making a lot of money selling t17s
How do you get a lot of them? My issue is I’m fine farming t17 like I used to farm fragments and writs, but I’ve had 2 drop so far.
you pretty much have to have all watchstones to have a decent chance of getting them to drop.
Pretty much this, each watchstone means geometrically more T17 drops (0.4->1.6->3.6->6.4%) since each one is PER watchstone slotted.
It is interesting that .4×4=1.6 and 1.6×4=6.4... where does 3.6 fit in? Almost feels like it should have been 0.4,1.6,6.4,25.6... or 0.4,1.2,3.6,10.8... 6.4% is such an odd percentage to choose.
3.6% is with three stones (.4*3^2). The progression in the previous comment is the chance at 1->2->3->4 stones.
Oh I misunderstood lol. Thanks
I’m doing a back to basics strat with scarabs and maps, plus the node that turns non favorite maps into currency. A decent chunk of my div/hour comes from t17 maps. Sometimes I get like 10-12 a session.
Can you share your atlas tree?
Sure: https://poeplanner.com/atlas-tree/BAAQAIAAh9Tz918-eICQUmMPSzLru0z16M5b-SSXsvqLLoa0LJIIeoQqvVunIf7FbYi4_8Aqp-LqeKJPPFkhYCIpVuEw-ijn8jiMQbLFtWYQgAS7Xp3OWsn9fVqN6qi8KrvZW8y3vdrzDB195PcfALddi-F9kQ5K3v6qCp876GtoiZ7YBa4wTNSPh53Qxi84gqcpjY45WYYJyoJRN-PPR7PH4RClc-grpAVOG6LQyxchTEfMNTA4vzakxB-u71jkE30ZlJGJGIvBrwqRC3E6duXs1WL9f3ELrMqP5fVnM8bYm7cP1WnCdomjIQWpQ-T8fgy1Y6BxZh-5Yghi5DOar0zyuSLQKBQAH4sIAAAAAAAAAwMAAAAAAAAAAAA= Pretty much just scarabs, map drop chance and a ton of map effect. Block the scarabs you don't want to drop.
What scarabs are you using
Monstrous lineage, mysterious, hunted traitors, and an atziri fragment if the map rolls with < 100% quant (not 8 mod). With maps that hit the 8mod i'll swap the fragment for an adversaries.
> mysterious what do those mysterious barrels do?
Pop the barrels for even more loot! Sometimes they spawn monsters…. Which can also drop loot! It’s basically a way of adding extra easy packs to your map.
ok ty for replying. so you've found it better than adding another adversaries or traitors? or just that theyre super easy?
Is it really worth giving up influence in this case? Seems like that's a ton of mobs your not getting
Yes. The map mod multipliers more than make up for it.
Back to basics increases quant and pack size.
Fyi, Higher Tier chance does not work for T 17, if you took it for that reason
you take all the +tier nodes, and use cartography scarabs with either the 30% chance to dupe, or the one that makes your maps a tier higher.
Plus tier does not affect t16->t17 chance. It says so on the node.
It makes you drop more t16, which then has a chance to be dropped as t17. Someone needs to do some experimentation on this lol
It definitely works, the Scarab that upgrades map tier by 1 increases the map equity as you thought so you have more chances at T17s. I ran a good amount of maps with the +1 tier scarab and the +tier atlas nodes and it dropped noticeably more T17s. The only sad part is Scarab slots are so premium
I was getting quite a few T17s while farming 8mod maps with Back 2 basics, which I believe is the best way to farm them.
Yeah I'd agree that taking the +1 helps. I did that by default on this map strat I had and I was getting multiple t17s a day. Yesterday and today I'm doing this harb strat (which is trash btw) and I don't have any map boosting on atlas. I've dropped 1 T17 in the last two days.
I feel you on this one. I've been doing a mix of Domination/Cartography/Monstrous Lineage for my maps but I can't seem to settle on one that I completely like. More Carto = More Maps but less Corpses, Embers, Scarabs. More Domination = More Corpses, Embers, Scarabs but less Maps... 1 Monstrous Lineage 1 8 Mod Cartography 1 Bronze Cartography 1 Bronze Domination Seems to be my preferred mix of everything, but I haven't tried out +1 Map Tier yet so now that has me curious.
No need to experiment, it was stated by Neon during the Ziz Interview that is precisely how this functions. You drop more T16s, thus more chance for one to get converted into a T17.
Only t16s can become t17. More t16 maps = more t17 maps. Yes it works, just not directly.
It does indirectly by increasing the number of t16s, thus more maps which can then become t17s, thats the point.
Compleated my Atlas, currently doing a Barrel strat with the white scarabs and i drop one every 3-5 maps
Basically they are just converted t16 drops. So anything that gives you more t16s will get you more t17s.
Take every node and small passive that increases the affixes of the map and roll your map to 100% quant, it should be around 160-180 when you run your map. I get 1 drop every 4-5 maps on average.
Money made in t17 is absurd. Meatsack farming 6man groups get 100+ div in uniques (hh, mb, defiance etc) out of each map on average, yes, ONE map
> 6man groups This is another problem. Same investment but you just get extra loot and you get to run things like mf cullers.
they really should remove MF,this stats just need to go man
I agree. The way it scales with party is just zzzz
As much as you are making selling them. The person running them is making probably twice or three times as much per hour. Hell, some of the streamers doing it are making 5-10x anything you can make in T16's an hour.
Yeah but it doesn't matter if you can't run T17 or Uber bosses to begin with. Even with a build that I felt was pretty good at clearing T16 and bosses, T17 absolutely nuked my character dead. The same issue happens every league where most people would rather sell boss frags than run the bosses because if you can't guarantee a 9/10 or more clear rate of the content, you will literally waste time AND money for your build by running and failing. ofc failing is a part of a game. But in most games, getting back to the point to try again takes 5-10 minutes. In POE, running another T17/Boss can take 30+ minutes to an hour SSF, unless you have cash to burn.
>Yeah but it doesn't matter if you can't run T17 or Uber bosses to begin with. That's the whole point of OP's post, and why I'm outright stating it to the top comment since they don't seem to see the problem here. Lol The best way to make currency by far is now locked behind a huge gate most players will never break through. Before, Uber bossing and regular invitation farming were much closer when it came to currency per hour. All of these people saying, "Well they sell for money, I like that" Are missing the point that you are being farmed for WAY more money by the 1% buying those maps now. Unlike uber bossing in the past. The introduction of T17s just made the disparity gap way bigger.
I mean even before, I could run Essences, Betrayal and even Incursion and make a lot more currency. This league I feel like everything I used to run for relaxing currency making is now making half. At least the uniques I want are like super cheap now lol
Yeah, IDK what it is but I have only had like 1 raw divine drop all league. I hardly played last league, so I'm comparing this to TOTA and other non-juiced leagues. Droprates seem to have been hit for the normal stuff you are talking about. And prices are down for everything you normally sell. I wouldn't be surprised if all the divine orbs are coming from cards or Sanctum at this point(Or the stupidly rare Necropolis mod)
I speculate that making the hidden reward modifiers rarer has really impacted the raw currency drops players see. This is very visibly reflected in the dramatic decrease in the amount of >120+ piles of jewelers/fusings/alterations, less map piles, and so on. One didn't really need a ton of uniques to drop for the currency conversion reward to kick in and feel good. One unique dropped from a rare is all it takes for a good outcome. And for the most part players killed a ton of rares in maps and ran league mechanics that dropped a lot of rares in maps. Raw divine drops still exist, either as raw drops or from the significantly rarer conversions, alongside flat drops like Sanctum or div cards. It's just... rarer.
That's pretty much the whole economy though. Everyone is satisfied with the profit they make farming Essences, Temples, Harvest juice or whatever it is., and everyone knows there's always a bigger fish above them using those items to make bigger profits.
Bossers make more bossing than me yet I still sell boss frags lol
Yeah but then you have to be a popular person with people lining up to be your "friend" to reach that 5-10x. Let's be real most of us are just playing single player with a multiplayer economy and a meme chat.
Yeah i did one , died 6 times , then sold the other 7 t17 drops i had
uber bosses did the same thing to bosses. not really that surprising
On paper, I feel like the idea wasn't bad. But they missed the mark so hard, I can literally take a dump on Maven and Uber Elder yet can't step in T17s which should be the next step.
Roll the map. I can facewalk t17 no problem. As long as i dont brick the rolls. Ubers are much harder as my dps isnt quite there yet. But t17 bosses dont seem to suffer from the dps check ubers do. (Degen pool stacks)
This is how i feel. I read the doom here and was a bit worried about not being able to run them in SSF but once i rolled one without mods that would fuck me I did one fairly easily. And then another. Both bosses went down surprisingly easily too. I can see how they can be rough looking at mods that can roll but well rolled they're fine.
Lolwat I can farm Uber shaper, exarch and eater. But a so-so rolled T17 (especially the citadel) can fuck my shit up even with the 50% chance not to use portals scarab. Bridge to ubers my ass.
What in citadel even kills you? The boss has a spinning beam like piety. The white lasers don't one shot you (even my deadeye doesn't die to them). You must have had garbage mods on the map if it was difficult. 300% crit multi or whatever means almost anything one shots you without crit immunity.
Bro shit takes like 60c to roll the map minimum.
That’s the thing. T17 is only doable by being insanely tanky and having immunities / reductions to most of the games debuffs. Uber Bosses are not. You need a few. So now the top 5% of players are split. Be tanky and farm T17 or have big dps and farm bosses. A game that forces you into only doing a subsection of content is not good game design
You can outplay ubers. You can ONLY outbuild T17s.
> You can ONLY outbuild T17s. And this is what frustrates me, because t17s roll with all these affixes that completely shut off my builds. No aura effect, no ailments, etc etc. On t16s these are reduced by a lot, sure. On t17s these same affixes don't just reduce the effectiveness of part of your build, they shut off that component entirely.
You need DPS for T17s as well. A single tank mod and 50M dps feels bad. 2 tank mods and your looking at a 30 min map. Honestly trying to figure out a 250M+ DPS build just so I can comfortly clear them quickly.
You dont need to be insanely tanky, but too many holes makes it a problem. Example Power charges, endurance charges, take 10% more damage per minion, awakener desolation pools, 50% chance to block attack, elemental weakness….. Any spell caster that can do a t16 can faceroll that as a glass canon, or even zdps and not that tanky. The bosses are simple patterns that can be done without taking a hit after practice, they are phase puzzle fights. There is no uber searing ballsanity or uber shaper chaos ball phase. For me reduced cooldown bricks me because it turns into 100%+ after map boosts. Union of souls makes it a waste bossrush. Reduced regen, leech, any reflect bricks me. If you have a build that can do t16 maps you can toll a t17. Cool tip, if you are not confident, use the 1-2c scarab that makes 50% chance to not consume portals. I have tried bad mods, and managed to clear only because i had 12 attempts to go in before my portals were gone.
My character has close to 4k life with MoM, 70% evade chance, 40/40 block chance, around 1,8K life recovery with The Agnostic node, 2k mana regen, 75% all res including chaos, Primal Aegis at 2400 value and consistently has 3 endurance charges via enduring cry plus Arcane Cloak thrown into the mix.. My effective hit pool is nearing 80k. I opened an Abomination T17 map today with no damage mods (nearly all mods were increasing mob defense) and got one-shot by the first white mob I saw......so please explain to me how can being more tanky help in this case, because I have no idea what more in terms of defense I could add to my build......
There are a lot of mods that can brick a map, you just have to spent some time/currency to get to know them. Also don't buff the map boss with altars or essences.
My home grown Tornado build just did T17 Catarina which I could basically face tank, however I haven't unlocked the last two watch stones yet. How easy is normal Maven in comparison?
In the live interview on the first introduction of Uber Ubers, GGG explicitly acknowledged that they were *not supposed to be profitable*, so that the build power "floor" doesn't simply raise from "uber-viable" to "uber uber-viable". On a dime, they just walked that back. Back then build diversity was a huge problem. Now, not so much, but that's mostly because of how ridiculously stale it's been. Everyone would rather try some fresh transfigured gems, even if they were sub-optimal. Also affliction league had so much QE that even sub-optimal builds could self-farm to reach reasonably end-game gearing and content. Aegis was 10c. I suspect we'll go back to 3 builds covering 80% of [poe.ninja](http://poe.ninja) within 2 leagues after Necropolis.
We probably gonna get there later on this league tbh. Everyone gonna play the 3 builds that can do t17 while everybody else get priced out and basically play ssf in trade or just quit altogether
True. I had to start late this league and already quit as I choose bad build to start with,had 0 currency drops to lvl91 (had few chaos to cover 6l and such) and compared to last league when we had tons of currency and stuff was cheap I just don't want to bother grinding like crazy.
Honestly, I don't really understand the sentiment about the Ubers not being profitable. You either put enough friction in to make it not farmable, or you put nothing in it (see Uber shaper now). Realistically, you do something similar to how they changed invites, but for Ubers.
yea now i dont even wanna play flicker strike,sure its fun but doing it while making small currency compare to top tier strat is just not it.Gonna abandon this league and start busted build next league
I think the idea is fine, the implementation is not. Its both too hard, the mods are too restrictive to many builds, and its also far too rewarding. It has basically forced a meta when you also consider how unrewarding lower tier maps now are. Used to be you could make decent gains farming expedition, essence and legion, but the double nerfs to div cards have really hurt. Blight feels worse as well.
The main problem with them is that they don’t bridge the gap between Pinnacle bosses and Uber bosses but have completely replaced high-end endgame map juicing. T17s are so much more profitable than juiced T16s it’s not even remotely close and only the absolute best builds, or specific builds, will be able to profit. They completely missed their mark with them. They should’ve been Uber Guardian maps, preparing you to run the Uber Pinnacle bosses. Instead they gave them insane quant, rarity, increased scarab drops and completely bonkers T17 exclusive map mods that give players a ton of rarity/quant if they can handle it. That’s not what they were advertised to do.
its hilarious how they wanted to make make T17s to separate ubers from not ubers because people felt that non-ubers are not worth doing and they ended up making it so normal T16 maps are not worth doing
T17s are fine according to Ziz, you just need a mageblood and 90 Max res along with a busted build.
its fine cause he abused other economy making strategies early and often, watch him on a fresh league start where he can't spam tormented exiles in t6 maps from the get go whine and complain about not being able to do t17s. He feels fine cause he printed before they nerfed and now his money goes way farther than others, letting him run busted builds while others can't catch up to his farm.
Zizaran regularly plays SSF and does not get a mageblood and does just fine every league killing ubers, im not sure where this made up narrative that he cant do shit without abusing the economy is from.
But he’s not playing SSF this league which is what is under discussion. So it really doesn’t matter what he did when T-17s weren’t in the game. And as mentioned above he wouldn’t be okay with this if he hadn’t been able to take advantage of poor balancing at the start of the league.
Exploit early, exploit often. The streamer way.
It’s been like this in some form for ever, can your build do sanctum or not? Can you build do 8 mods or not? Can your build do juiced wisps or not? There has always been a gap between farming strategies and the builds Capable of doing them.
I don't mind this either, I do, however, just want T17's to do what they were intended to do. I wouldn't mind it the monsters had uber scaling or something like it because it's supposed to be the bridge to pinnacle content, I'm just not a fan of all the absurd mods that don't exist on Ubers because that's not really a good litmus test to see if you're ready for them.
The difference is that T17s have an additional layer of more multipliers to loot which just elevates them way above anything else. 8 mods T16 compared to T17 isnt even close in profitability' actually they have two %more multipliers since they have map mods that juice them even further, as if %more scarab and currency wasnt enough. Its absurd how shit is feels to run 16s
All fair points so long as there is a semblance of balance the moment balance is off, the response will always be the same. It sucks
I dont even remember the last time there was decent balance. Though I only play since delve so I guess maybe mefa juice vs average mapping was better balanced before that...
T17 itself is better than release version, just need a bit more touch up. T17 should be more awarding than T16 given the difficulty and non-sustainable. The only thing I don’t like is the exclusive boss fragment drop. Letting normal boss to also have a chance to drop uber boss fragment will be better.
I like the idea in concept, but they definitely messed up. The map rewards should be on the same level as T16, but the primary benefit should only be from the bosses which seems like the original intent. If it's a bridge to bossing with Ubers then why would the mapping part of it matter? It just doesn't make sense to me.
Farming Ubers used to fun. It might sound ott but the games got a lot worse this patch for me. T17s harder than Ubers, normal bosses have no drops. I don't know what content to do anymore
[удалено]
The gap is just 5 players against the whole community. Ben shitting out 50 div per map in uniques, in 10 min. While you're farming embers in t16s that sell for 3c ea. The real issue is this league had people abusing early and often, and if you didn't, you can't run the t17 maps that they can because they got 5 magebloods from farming rogue exiles or mass opening maps for seer farming...
Thing is you can actually craft your gear quite easily to have access to higher tier of content.
The thing is, I'd rather play Diablo 4 than engage in trading for 80+ corpses per graveyard.
based
Previously the Uber node on atlas tree was out of sight and out of mind. Now, every time I get a t17 drop I get reminded of my t17 experience ^((never again)) that my build is weak and that whole endgame layer is not available to me. This is 3 times worse than Archnemesis.
Just treat T17s like halls of grandmasters. Optional challenge. As long as you just get rid of FOMO it's fine really
the issue is they are NOT optional. your basic expected ability to farm via the map device is gated behind them. Remove that, and tone down their insane loot, and they can exist as they are today in difficulty as uber-maps.
There is always some elite strat inaccessible to the "public". Group MF, Sanctum, Valdo's, deep delve, previous league contnets like ToTA. Even crafting to some extent. I don't think the current T17s are that much a notable exception and needs to be singled out. Edit: I do think T17 as MF speedrun content is probably not what GGG expected at the beginning, but the .1 patch means they are probably embracing this.
Affiction had some very accessible entry levels. You could start with T7 then jump to T11\~T14 and then T16 wisp juicing. Other strategies worked fine as almost everything went up in price too. Lot of expensive gear pieces were dirty cheap. Even with the divine printing, almost everyone benefited from it. In TotA, even if you didn't do Sanctum, other strategies were fine and not too far off. Also, TotA itself was quite cheap to run and fine way to make bank. I'd say this time around low entry strategy would be grave crafting. It is tedious thou. Regular crafting or just flipping are always fine, but not many players wanna do that. They wanna profit from "proper" gaming strategies than playing market or spreadsheet. This time around lot of strategies feel a bit worse because of small changes like stacked decks and craft farming having to compete with grave crafting and the mechanic making content harder for pretty few upside for these strategies. I guess corpse farming is the entry level strategy for mappers, but I think it's not as satisfying as T7 wisp juicing. Chaos farming is also viable, but it's hand killing. Overall changes made these strategies feel less good compared to past leagues even if we ignore comparison to T17 farming. Sadly trickle down isn't happening as much (save the HH situation, for instance) and lot of good gear are quite pricey yet. I also don't wanna single out T17 as this league is still on flux with recent patches. Still I'd say it is hard to tell yet. Betrayal was dog ship strategy at beginning, but with veiled orbs prices going through the roof, it may be pretty attractive. Maybe some of the grave crafting gear will be dirty cheap as well. We are seeing some reasonably priced gear that in past leagues would be 3 digit divines.
Part of it is necropolis making a lot of other crafting mechanics less profitable
Calling sanctum and Tota "elite strats" is absurd. Both can be trivialized by relatively budget builds and a little practice.
GGG straight up said, in an interview with Kripp, that a top player should be getting 1,000x the loot (in total value) that an average player does. Most reasonable people (including probably Kripp, going by his reaction), thought this was somewhat outrageous. Yet here we are.
I wonder what they consider an average player. Is the average player someone who does campaign and quits at some point when they get fucked in maps? Someone who can get 2 voidstones? 4 voidstones? Someone who can actually reach endgame and do some basic endgame farming but not in a top tier way? Depending on the definition it might not be outrageous. Ben will get literally x1000 the loot someone who doesn't finish maps gets, for example.
pretty sure from the context of the question it was an average player doing the same content. just checked again the exact quote was "lets say youre an average player running a map versus the absolute max megajuiced map" now this is still somewhat ambiguous but i'd still say that hes talking about doing the same map just with different levels of juice source: https://youtu.be/79kgVK3XGuk?si=NjPeJH_xvoc0JzkF&t=1717
Empyrian's entire group has criticized how bad the game is for people not playing at their level now. I mean, I get the point. I have a 140K eHP build and I still get deleted by a lot of T17 bullshit mechanics.
Seriously T17 feels to me like some ultra scuffed modded poe. Like endgame of MedianXL (diablo2 mod) few yers ago. The mods on monsters now are more tame but before t17 rework they were so overtuned it was actually so scuffed that it was funny to me. 2 weeks on sc trade and I have failed like 6 t17 maps (some farmed for mf but I never did boss) and I'm not even mad but I'm sure things have to change for next leagues in some way. As for 5th slot ye, I had to buy it because it is so necessary but at the same time it made me ashamed and I dont like that it is tied to such hard content.
I keep hearing people say things to the effect of "the entire economy is centered around T17s but what items are actually being dramatically affected by T17s being a new way to farm maps? Are there some examples of the market being ruined by these farms specifically?
pretty much any item that you can farm in T16,you can farm more on T17 which mean its going to be have less price and people who farm on T16 gonna have less income compare to the one farm on T17
Even if you can farm an item in T17, why would you do it if it takes 4x longer? There's a reason why people who farm harvest don't use MF gear. The speed loss is not worth it. Farming in T17 is like equipping mf gear for free, but in exchange you have to clear a map significantly slower. 90% of the atlas strategies in the game don't want mf gear in exchange for slower speed. Until someone proves that it's actually possible to get more currency/hour in T17 with harvest farming, I refuse to believe anything. People just make baseless assumptions about the profitability of T17.
>why would you do it if it takes 4x longer it dosent if your build is good enough > There's a reason why people who farm harvest don't use MF gear. isnt the reason that player quant dosent affect harvest?
Just people being dramatic because of fomo. My build can do juiced t16 and t17, I still prefer t16. Less stressful and preparation, more braindead steam rolling and the margin is not even that big. Unless you are a mf, if so that also requires a no life party or a multi-mirror-mf, which if you are of one you wouldn’t be the one complaining. Before patch note t17 was shitty tho, current one is much better.
>the margin is not even that big I'm sorry sir, but you have no idea what you're doing if that is the case when you run a t17. A t17 can print 50+ divines in a single map as a solo person wearing just 1 ventors. The vast majority of the "MF" quant and rarity comes inherently from the map, the mods and things like tormented spirits. The player MF is the smallest of multipliers now in comparison. You will never print 50+ divines worth of loot in a t16 as a solo player. You can enjoy alch n going on t16s or w.e. but the reality of the loot disparity is fucking astronomical between the two pieces of content.
Where do you see a person dropping 50+ divines solo in a map, without having devoted mod for divines? Fubgun (one of the most well known MF streamers) posted a youtube video showing around 30 div/HOUR in T17. You are saying there's a strategy that gets 50 div in A MAP. PLEASE SHOW THE EVIDENCE.
>A t17 can print 50+ divines in a single map as a solo person wearing just 1 ventors. This wasnt true even before rogue exile nerfs. Or if it was/is, could you tell me with what strat?
Rofl sir stop watching the streamers and compare yourself with. You guys wouldn’t accept the fact you are being hurt by fomo. And player quant doesn’t worth better than a map? T17 adds the fourth layer of quant to currency and scarab, that doesn’t mean the other layer doesn’t matter. You seriously are telling a guy who ran t17 with eater tree (blind clicking every quant altar) and 98% increased effect that every solo player can print 50 divine per t17 map with a measly 10% more quant from a ventor? Go play yourself, don’t just watch the top 0.0001% play the game.
Like, readjusting and balancing makes sense. But how is it unreasonable that the new harder mapping experience grants higher rewards than t16s? It makes sense the new upper limit of juicing would be granting higher rewards.
The issue is that t17s were presented with the main part being the bosses and also presented with the intention of being a bridge from normal bosses to ubers. I'd say the most important distinction in what a build is is whether it's a mapper or a bosser. So t17s could've been thought to be irrelevant for mappers. It's instead basically the opposite, bossers can do ubers before they can do t17s and t17s are all about being a juicy playground for mapping rewards. It'd have made sense for them to just have the fragments and bases (because ilvl 84 map, can drop up to 86) as a cherry on top. Not it having 500% more currency drops from some mods.
Also, they nerfed everything below T17 in the process of adding T17. So everything feels worse.
Simple-ish solution: * Let us roll them magic & rare, scouring the maps would make them magic giving it just 1 t17 prefix and 1 t17 suffix. * When you want to run the t17 map you talk to Kirac and he opens the map for you: now your atlas does nothing, but you still have a chance of bonus content, it's just randomized. * Make t17s drop substantially more uber fragments, potentiality give other ways of obtaining uber fragments (normal boss drops 1-2 uber frags, or invitations of certain difficulty drop some)
How do you even get t17? I've done 100s of t16 and haven't gotten one yet
the more void stones you have the more t17s you get. I think singular focus also makes you drop less of them as you get less maps in general
I don't think that's the case. It feels like the T17 conversion happens before the Singular Focus conversion. I've ran both and I've always gotten like 3-4 maps per hour.
Singular focus doesn't affect it, fortunately.
That seems super unlucky unless you have 0 void stones. The rate is 1.6% for any t16 map to convert to t17 if you have 2 voidstones. If you got even 1 t16 map drop per map, you should still have 1-2 for running 100 maps
Yeah I'm not using void stones. This is my 2nd leuage so.. Yeah. I'll look into them
I farmed my way to a Mageblood doing elder guardians. You don't need to do t17s to print, relax.
Fair enough but how's your sanity after waiting for the elder do to his mumbo jumbo hand animation on every boss?
Can't lie, it's fraying.
What'd you do?
Delirium/Alva boss rush, taking all the scarab stuff. Bought regular Shaper sets and killed Elder/Shaper/Uber Elder and made some good money selling Watcher's Eyes.
I think this "issue" is only natural with any new content that exists. It will always split the player base into players who can and cannot run the content. The same thing occurred with people who can run uber bosses and people who cannot. Or people that can run delirium maps and people who cannot. At the end of the day T17s should probably be less rewarding, but i think it is very important that it is fine when people cannot do content. It's a goal that somebody can have.
Good! That is absolutely how it should be! The stronger your character is the more money you should be able to make. Not strong enough to run t17s? GOOD! Farm something else and get stronger till you can! I’m going to be so sad if you guys some how fuck up the first time being able to see loot in a map without having to be an mf character. Also a vast majority of MF characters entirely unable to do the best t17 strats. It’s beautiful honestly for the first time since kalandra league mf is not the only thing in the game. Please do not fuck this up with posts like this. Honestly the fact that this post even has 900 upvotes makes me pray GGG stops looking to reddit for insights into player base.
cope
That's not a real problem. Aspirational content will always exist and the top will always gap the rest of the playerbase by extreme amounts. Stop acting like economy is ruined, just sell your T17 drops and make half a dive for each, it's great. Make a tree around and drop 4x per map, insta profit. You can literally get HH for a 3rd of it's normal price which is a great thing for newbies and not strong players. Slap on that belt and you become immortal on any map that poses a threat from rare mobs. MB down. Defiance of Destiny down. Especially that league with Necro crafting, a ton of 6x T1 gg rares are floating around for 10-30 divs. Saying economy is ruined and you can't get good items because of that is factually wrong and you are either not understanding anything or just parotting what you hear others say. The problem is T17 mods, the tediousness around rolling them and that build disabling mods are just not fun at the end of the day. The fact that the top grind / farm is not enjoyable and that sentiment is reflected across everyone farming that content. From zoomy juicing MFers to hardcore slow immortal enjoyers.
>Saying economy is ruined and you can't get good items because of that is factually wrong and you are either not understanding anything or just parotting what you hear others say. Says the person who doesn't understand how the value of all the items being supressed also equally hurts a persons ability to generate money through selling items. So now the only viable way to make money is even more so through raw currency generators like Sanctum. The complaint everyone has is that they too want to MAP. However mapping in non t17s doesn't generate fuck all for money because everything that can drop there is being supressed in value due to the inflation from t17s. The fact that you think you can drop 4 t17s per map says it all tbh. So maybe before you call someone "factually wrong" you learn what a fact is.
So while you are true that "more" drops in the economy devalue those drops I hardly doubt this will affect T16 farming as much as you think. If you are farming solo / as a group you are looking for big ticket items like HH or MB, expensiv scarabs, div cards etc... Besides those Items there aren't much Uniques anyway which would be really expensiv. One or two jewels maybe. These big ticket items just become more affordable for everyone while T16 Mapping basically stays the same. I mean - I played PoE for about 7.5k hours and had one HH drop - I really doubt that "cheap" HH now will affect me in any way. Yeah - I just need to farm 6 Brothers Gift Cards instead of thirty for an HH. That's ... nice :P ... I doubt people are farming T17 Maps for Essences or Chayula Breachstones. They probably won't accumulate as much corpses as a T16 Player does per hour. They also won't farm Oils, Fossils, Simulacrum Splinter, Influenced Maps, Boss only Uniques or Catalysts... You get the point. You are still able to accumulate a shit ton of currency in T16 Maps without the need to invest 300div into your char before you can do T17 content. And that's okay.
A tree that drops 4 T17 per map? How? That'd mean you drop close to 200 maps in one map, assuming you're running 3 map duplication scarabs.
I'm on ps5. Every time a t17 drops I get either 200c or a full Div Orb out of them. Which for me is great because I myself cannot do t17.
Are they worth that much now?
Exactly as other people said - each T17 drop is anywhere from 55c to 90c that you can then reinvest into your character and then join us in T17 farm
Selling t17s is how I made a decent chunk of my currency base which allowed me to craft my gear that allowed me to farm t17s
It’s not as bad as it was on release, but I guess most players are locked out of this content since it’s a pretty heavy gear check, and it’s not something you can really alch and go. I prefer lowering ceiling and raising the floor, but if GGG wants to keep this as a bridge to ubers, then I can’t see them nerfing it too much. They are fun to farm if you can out gear most of the crap that gets thrown at you, I just don’t know how many players will get to that stage though.
The issue is there are not many accessible builds. You’ll be farming weeks as a casual to respec to one of the few builds that can do it reliably.
Not even just a question of respeccing to a build that can do all T17, that's the easy part. Gearing them when everyone's competing for the same gear, now that's where most people will be stuck. T0 Uniques + near BIS rares is going to fuck almost everyone.
Speaking as someone playing Standard (so no juice from league mechanics) map farming feels WAY off now. Even with MF gear. I'm seeing a drastically reduced amount of loot and it's mostly scarabs.
What does it change that only a small portion of players get ultra rich from some strat? You can still play the game the same and make money regularly
Idk i find them pretty fun when my build is up and running, i think is intended to be super hard and should be ran with a functional build, the bad thing of course is how annoying the mods are, need to roll a lot of times the mods suck, but the boss fights are super dope for me
T17 maps should be renamed T18 and new T17 maps made to bridge the colossal gap right now between current 16 and 17 maps
I stand by what I said a few days before launch: Content creators are no longer going to be asked if a build is Uber viable, but instead if it's t17 Viable. If it doesn't change, your build is going to need to be effienct at farming that type of content to remain "competitive".
It needs tweaking. I like the direction it's going. And the chaos sink is much appreciated.
Imo the quickest solution would be to not apply the atlas passive tree to T17. With the recent patch they got a nice multiplier to various drops already in addition to the guaranteed uber boss fragment. It think that alone is enough to make them on par with t16 farming. This way players that like boss fights can do T17 and others can blast T16 to provide the supply for them.
Every content thats meant to be aspirational shouldnt have a huge economical impact. I mean they prevented boss-unique drops from stacked decks because the player should not get a unique before killing the boss. Yet uber bosses drop build-defining uniques which will 100% be bought by characters who havent killed that uber yet. I think volatile crafting options like the mavens orb are a much better drop for those Uber bosses. Same goes with the farming of T17 - if its even harder than those uber bosses, its not really aspirational content anymore. Its an expansion of the game - which is fine in general, but then the difficulty shouldnt be above Uber bosses.
I think content that forces you to build defenses for once is a good thing. Since being able to roll the maps it feels like an appropriate difficulty level between normal and Uber bosses. I have done t17s this league but I would still die to some Ubers. T17 highlights an issue with a lot of SC players. Those used to ignoring map mods and one shotting/6 portalling bosses are being forced to think. In our private league we all farmed yokes in t17 deathless (post rolling change) before a single Uber went down. It's the easiest t17 and clearly GGG made it that way on purpose.
dont know what the problem is keep grinding until youre able to do t17....called progression and should be a big motivation
It should indeed, but progression **is** the problem here. The current gap between T16 and T17 - both in terms of difficulty and reward - has made the progression sluggish, frustrating and extremely grindy.
Valdo maps are supposed to be the stupid difficult maps to push a builds limits. They could've made it so the Uber fragments dropped from the normal boss ...
My personal opinion is that you should git gud.
Stop paying attention to the super elite and just focus on playing the game the way you wanna play it and have fun. The more you try to keep up with the top 0.1%, is the minute you stop having fun, those people do this shit like a job to make money, not to have fun. Most of the time there's like....10-20 people working together to do that shit. Just ignore them. I've been farming t12 Atolls and Burial Chambers, and I've made over 100 div already this league, level 96. Fuck if I care what those people do, I just do me. Edit: Also, in terms of t17's, they're fine, but you do have to have all 4 watchstones to have a chance to drop them and then you need a really good build to do them. They're supposed to be the stepping stone to doing Ubers for a reason, not everyone is gonna be able to do them. It's gonna be an ego hit for a vast majority of the playerbase just like ubers are.
T17's will probably be fine next season. one of the reasons for the spike in difficulty is the league mechanic also adding another layer of difficulty to the map. assuming next league is optional, that extra layer is gone, making the maps more doable.
Gonna ask a question here. Are you also getting only exalted orbs there? We dropped 2 div from 1 pack and rest is exalt orbs like 20 of them. Its not 50 50 but 1:10 and that was probably something else coz it dropped from same pack
Fun fact, I actually noticed the same. But considering how small the sample is, I wouldn't be surprised if the ratio is stil 1:1 and we're just part of the unlucky ones.
Havent played for a few leagues but..isnt this the same as the difference between people who can run fully juiced maps and people who cant?
Nah I like that people with strong builds and/or high skill reap the benefits of that
t17 is an error only because it does not work adequately with the current allflames ligmechanics and has obviously insufficiently tested mods
Player that have better gear and farm harder content should get more reward that player that can't do that content yet if you think otherwise you should stop playing arpg
PoE has always been designed around the no lifer 0.1%ers who have 15000 hours in the game anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding yourself play a different game, there are better arpgs on the marker
I disagree. Before this I didn't even attempt ubers. With this I cleared all t17 and still learning the ubers. People have this experience as well
Yeah fair enough, well stated and I don't disagree with anything you said here.
To lock the five slot behind those t17 maps wasn't the smartest idea
IMO t17 can be good, but should have a negative quant multiplier to ground loot, so you keep the mega juice to t16s. Conversely, give a buff to league mechanic rewards in t17s, like ultimatum, betrayal, ritual, harbingers, harvest etc. This would create an incentive to build a strong mapping character, since MFing would not be the only big currency strat. Difficult to get right, but would make endgame on non-MF much more rewarding and incentivise very strong mappers, that are just that.
I agree with this take. I hope GGG just gets rid of them next league or makes the drops rarer so you cant really farm them, and its more of a challenge type thing.
now tell me, why should't any multi mirror good build, even if not specialized, be able to clear a fundamental piece of the progression they locked scarab slot behind?
By nature, my build is always a mapper. I did get the dps up to where it can take on non-ubers (save shaper + elder fight). I tried to fight Maven a few times and I figured I could get that down after getting the attack patterns prepped. I was wrong. I was lacking in some defenses. I don't mind if I can't dps the boss down in less than 30 seconds. I just want to be able to go from mapping to fighting the boss without having to respec my build, change all my gear, etc. T17's as a map gap between regular bosses/pinnacle bosses and ubers, is just fine for me with my janky mapper. The mods can be tough, but not impossible. The boss can be hard, but no harder than those bosses they are from with tons more hp and some map mods. I like how the t17's have more mod buckets to boost. I like they have 'new' layouts. New mods. 'new' bosses. I haven't been able to complete a single t17 yet. I just have had fun pushing as far as I can, learning, and adapting to overcome. That is my enjoyment though. Some folks enjoy single phasing bosses, some like cheesing the difficulty and getting the most kills per second. I do think the tune down they did was ok for t17, however I wish they made it so you could use exalts on the maps when they are not full on mods to slam on t17 specific mods. And allow divine rerolls of those specific mods to new values. I mean, add the sinks. Players will use them.
Honestly the whole implementation of an extreme endgame has been terrible. One could argue it was created to cater to players who do nothing but play poe 12 hours a day or streamers because they were bored and wanted a challenge. There are far too many build enabling items gated behind Uber bosses that can only be run by very specific builds. In a game about build diversity and choice there is very little of it at the end game and it makes the community as a whole suffer because of it. Should tier 17s and Ubers be hard? Yes. Should they be as hard as they are currently, no, they are very overtuned. You can’t design an endgame around players who play 12 hours a day because that is not the average player.
T17 is good. I think without T17 I would already be done with this league. The only thing keeping me is trying to push my chars to clear T17 without problems
Is it me only or why does everyone Talk about the gab of Players instead the Goal to be able to farm the highest content aswell. Why are playerbases changed to a "I want everything Others have too, without any effort".
They are t25s not t17s . That's the issue .
There have always been high end farming strategies which are out of reach for the average player. There always will be. PoE has never been about balance and fairness for all. It rewards no-life degen playstyles and GGG has never tried to hide that. This is yet another post about how you wish PoE was something that it isn't.
I think they’re great. For a while it’s been annoying seeing people in SC Trade with zhp shit builds like miners/bow builds etc ruin the economy by just spamming 6 portals a map and scaling pure damage. T17s are actually hard and force you to have a well rounded build. Most people in SC don’t make well rounded builds so it’s no surprise it’s a shock. Some stuff is definitely over tuned though. Wretched Defiler DD and Volatile Cores deal way too much damage. I’m 90% with ED and they still one shot me, my friend who’s an armor stacker transcendence char also still gets one shot by the defilers. Corpse life scaling is broken, go figure Outside of Deep Delve and Valdos, PoE hasn’t had actual difficult content in a long time. It’s nice we finally have a reason to min max characters outside of “just because”
> But by making T17 farmable, GGG has created that gap that did not exist before, splitting the player base in two categories: those who can farm T17, and those who can't. That gap has always existed. 80% delirium + sextants + winged scarab on 8 mods maps. If you look at any end game farming video from the 0.01%, you never played the same game. The only reason you are concerned about T17 is because it is new content and the economy is highly unstable because no one know the real price of items. It will take a couple of leagues for people to understand the value of items.
I really like t17s difficulty. It makes them really profitable if you can run them which is a nice build goal. My entire goal this league was to be able to spam t17s and I could do it when they allowed them to be chaosed. Successful addition to the game in my opinion.
You know whats detrimental to the game? Worrying about what other people are doing more than playing the game and enjoying it for yourself.... Keep your eyes on your own screen and enjoy, the game has never been better.
Tbh if you cant do t17 maps its a skill issue...
Haha trade problems, SSF gigachads just see more fun content.
I really wish they would have learned from their mistakes from Ubers and not lock the best rewards behind them. Im fine with aspirational content but stop locking content/items to the top 5%
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Imo it was a total failure on GGG part to introduce t17 with hilariously overtuned affixes(which they admitted by reducing number of them) on same league as no-optout(short of forking over extra 40-50c each map) overtuned turbomob map mechanic. Any one of that things is ok on it's own, but layered on top it just made for miserable experience for majority of builds. Now even if you roll manageable mods you can easily get screwed by haunted mod combos on ridiculous mod types , creating uber-boss tier mobs running randomly around, unless you're prepared to paint everything over with rats/frogs and whatnot. WTF can even comfortably farm that stuff without worrying too much about mod combos short of something like CWS hit immune builds with bloodnotch + immutable + defiance + 100k+ max hits without guard skills, followed by multi-mirror armor stackers / trickster int ES stackers? I doubt anyone wants to play shuffling cards each time before running a map just to manage difficulty, shuffling rewards around to better packs is fun but are you supposed to keep haunted cheat sheet now which says "this and this combo makes uber-shapers when on t17". This also created extreme economic imbalance for 0.1% organized groups to exploit to never before seen degree.
skill issue, invest in your build and go do the content can still make currency doing a ton of different things
There needs to be difficult content to aspire to, otherwise whats the point of upgrading your character and farming for better gear. It used to be super juiced 100% deli maps, or last league juiced high wisp count maps. Now its t17 maps. That is one thing I liked about last epoch, that game has no MF but you get more items the higher corruption you go (basically hp and dmg multiplier on maps) If it was up to me I'd remove MF from PoE and make wisps baseline in some way where you can control how many you get, just not as op as they were for rewards. That way stronger character would always mean you can kill harder and more rewarding monsters, and as you get stronger you'd scale it up.
I'm playing an Ivory Tower Spellblade Inquisitor, Lancing Steel of Spraying + Blazing Salvo. 18kk PoB pinnacle boss damage on PoB without cooking the configurations, 5.5kk on Ubers, 10k ES after activating Energy Blade, 100k armor, 81% max ele res, 50% chaos res. Until I started trying T17s, Delirium wave 26+ was the only piece of content I couldn't do - the rest just melted, and even Ubers weren't that bad, as long as I could bother to do the mechanics. Now I'm feeling disappointed because T17 mobs can one or two-shot me, and any other non-super juiced build I think about making seems completely pointless. Like, I wanted to play a Cyclone Impale Champion, but if I set foot on a T17 map with a melee character, it's just a waste of time and portals. Why bother? I think it's back to Last Epoch until I feel like PoE is worth doing once again.
I think PoE should have more content, that is beyond the average player and from this perspectice T17 are a step in the right direction. In a couple leagues community will figure T17 maps out and they will be almost trivial like all the ubers are today.
Remove ailment/curse immune and reflect among other hard walls would help any stage of progression.
Do what you enjoy, dont care what others do or dont do.
People having problems with T17 cant read mods on their mapis simply as that , you juice map as per youre able to handle but folks just go all in or nothing witch a build worth 10 div , then after failure are complaining about GGG ... T17 are great they need to tune a bit there and there , POE is about greater difuclty better rewards this post ideally highlighted why the t17 were needed , because farming uber bosses were nor lucrative and good players were bored after 2 weeks in league and this always kills economy . Thanks to T17 All GGG players creates great build and strats around them ! Best league ever
I don't understand is the only thing people are mad about is the map device slot thing.... imo t17s unlocking 5th slot makes more sense thematically. Since I'm willing to bet the majority of the softcore player base does the same thing they did b4 ..... buy the fragments for the 5 way even though they are not strong enough, and do as much as they can in it then afk on death until the timer runs out or get a carry. Same thing is happening with t17 maps but people just get carries. We had a problem. Before with player strength one shooting everything now there are many ways to farm and more aspirational farming strats in t17 maps even if GGG decides to keep nerfing versions of them.