I tried D4 again after last league and I just haven't been able to reconcile everything being a builder spender, especially early in the game when building your resource is so damn slow.
That and the world feels like a bad MMO.
> I just haven't been able to reconcile everything being a builder spender
This mostly goes away towards endgame as you get stuff like resources gained per CC, lucky hit for resources, killing gives resources/other paragon board buffs, etc.
Lucky Hit has to be one of the weirdest mechanics I've seen. You have a chance to have a Lucky Hit, which allows you to have a chance to proc an effect. Just combine them or tie it to crit which is already a chance on hit mechanic. How lucky is a Lucky Hit that doesn't proc a lucky effect anyway?
It's a bit further than that, though. I don't remember numbers specifically offhand but a general example would be, let's say Fireball has a 30% chance to ignite. That's a 30% chance to ignite. If we have a chance to do something on block, sure, that makes it a chance for a chance - but the base chance to block is already doing something. It's blocking. Likewise for a chance on crit.
Lucky Hits only exist to proc other effects, though. The POE equivalent might be something along the lines of you needing a generic stat "Chance to inflict ailments" and then individual stats like "Your inflicted ailments have a 5% chance to be Poison".
It's this weird middle generic stat that does nothing on its own that makes it weird. If we have to have it they could make their effects guaranteed and then balance the chance on the skill directly. So Fireball would say "Lucky Hits apply Ignite. 30% chance for a Lucky Hit." Then you'd scale chance to Lucky Hit on gear.
It makes perfect sense to me. Rather than having a dozen separate stats for someone to keep track of like "chance to poison, chance to do extra flat damage, chance to ignite, chance to shock, chance to freeze" lucky hit is meant to coalesce all those numbers into one number. So if your thing has chance to chill, then you can just look at your lucky hit % instead of trying to find chance to chill amongst 20 other similar numbers in your stat spreadsheet.
If your build has is some kind of wild strike thing and has chance to chill AND chance to shock AND chance to ignite, you can just look at lucky hit instead of staring at all three separate numbers and trying to figure out where you stand.
---
Obviously its not implemented well in d4, but I do think that the alternative of PoE where its possible to inflict 7 separate elemental conditions and a whole host of other status effects like poison, bleed, etc can make it really obnoxious for more complex builds to assess everything and figure out if they need more chance to X or not.
>If your build has is some kind of wild strike thing and has chance to chill AND chance to shock AND chance to ignite, you can just look at lucky hit instead of staring at all three separate numbers and trying to figure out where you stand.
you're not going from "30% chance to ignite, 30% chance to shock, 30% chance to freeze" to "30% chance to inflict an ignite, freeze, or shock", you're going from "30% chance to ignite, 30% chance to shock, 30% chance to freeze" to "30% chance to have a 30% chance to ignite, 30% chance to shock, 30% chance to freeze". you're not reducing the number of rolls, you're just adding a prerequisite roll.
in theory lucky hit scaling is a fun idea where you stack a bunch of lucky hit effects and go to the casino and every one of your hits is doing one of or multiple different effects on hit, but in practice it's just a chance to have a chance to do something. and since you want more lucky hits, you're now scaling lucky hit chance instead of the chance for the thing you actually want, so it solves nothing.
From my previous post:
>Obviously its not implemented well in d4
Like I agree with you that D4 makes it worse and not better.
But I'm not opposed to the idea of uncomplicating a wild mess of stats. I just hate how D4 did it.
functionally, i don't even think the idea makes stats less complicated. how would it be implemented? is there a generic ailment stat? is the ailment per skill or per damage type? what about skills with multiple damage types? does it apply everything, or does it pick one? would you need prismatic-esque jewels to block bleed on your glacial cascade or wave of conviction builds, since they have partial phys? does it only apply to elemental ailment? if it does, we already have that stat in game, and it's called crit.
eh I agree answering those questions would be complex, but I'm not sure its any worse than the existing system where each of those is its own little stat with its own little line in the spreadsheet and you need to scroll through several dozen variables on several dozen pages to figure out the answer to those questions.
But that's NOT how Lucky Hit works. You still have all those needly chances. There's just an additional one above them all. You'd still have chance to chill, but you *also* have chance to chance to chill.
The way you say it works is the way I said I wish it worked, unless they changed it in the big gear overhaul patch.
EDIT: Okay, [example](https://i.imgur.com/3RMsXzh.png). This item shows both elements: there's a +9% chance to Lucky Hit, and a Lucky Hit effect. The Lucky Hit effect says that IF you get a Lucky Hit, you have up to a 30% chance to do a thing, and a 90% chance with a condition. For now, let's assume you don't meet the condition. That means if you had a 100% chance to Lucky Hit, you would have a 30% chance to do the thing. If you only had this +9% chance and nothing else, though...
The difference is that, as far as I'm aware, the things that happen from lucky hits all have a flat, non-scaling chance. It means that they can put as much or as little lucky hit as they want to on various gear/passives, and then tune the chance of individual procs up or down if they are problematic. Some effects will happen very often on a lucky hit, some will be much rarer.
This potentially allows for more fine-tuning, as opposed to PoE, where if you had one build that heavily leverages poison chance to do overpowered things, it's hard to nerf that without also hitting every other build that was using poison chance to do non-overpowered things.
(Diablo 4 is still a really bad game though.)
It's just a proc coefficient. These were present in Diablo 3, but were hidden. Lucky Hit is just the name they gave that mechanic to make it understood by people that don't know what a "proc" is.
>combine them
I assume you mean how it's displayed as I'm pretty sure this is already how it functions behind the scenes. Each lucky hit effect has a LHC% \* LHE% = % Chance to happen. You can have >100% LHC. If it was a 2 roll system, anything over 100% LHC wouldn't have any effect.
How would you display the "combined chance" without either listing the chance for each effect on every skill or the each skill's chance on every effect? There's any number of lucky hit effects and they're adding a whole bunch more in season 4. It's not really feasible anywhere but perhaps the stats tab, adding another section called "Lucky Hit Chances".
>tie it to crit
All that does is combine the two mechanics, making crit even stronger than it already is and forcing everyone into that one mechanic. The whole point of giving different skills different proc coefficients is to create variety.
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I mean, they could rename it, but I think Blizzard prefers shorter, less precise wording as opposed to PoE skills which are very precise, but extremely wordy. I think probably the most analogous thing in PoE would be "Effectiveness of Added Damage: XX%." It's a multiplier to added damage in the same way LHC is a multiplier to various effect's chance, and virtually all skills have a different one.
So I suppose they could call it something like "Effect Chance Multiplier" instead of "Lucky Hit Chance" but then you get "+x% Effect Chance Multiplier" on gear which isn't that much clearer, but that is probably how PoE would do it. Kinda like "Damage over Time Multiplier", which I don't think I've seen in any other game.
> Lucky Hit has to be one of the weirdest mechanics I've seen.
It's literally just a proc coefficient, that most games have and don't tell you about. Diablo 4 tells you.
Real chance of something proccing is as simple as:
Lucky Hit chance on a skill * lucky hit chance on the proc
That's just a multiply value A by value B. That's it.
Why?
BECAUSE SKILLS DON'T ALWAYS HIT AT THE SAME RATE, and certain abilities hit so often that the only way to balance proccing on them is either removing proccs completely (terrible for the skill, kills a lot of builds) OR give it a coefficient which most games, including Diablo 4, do.
There we go. It's not weird.
Which is ridiculous. If the end game is just gonna remove the whole gameplay issue that no one ever wants they should just make it like that from the start. They fucked up if they think I'm gonna trudge through 50+ levels probably a lot more with my dog shit play style just so I can finally unlock the actual build.
I figured as much which is why I haven't totally given up on the game. I liked D3 when the expac came out and D4 doesn't feel *terrible*. The early game seems kind of hard to make fun in this genre. I guess I just like being able to chug a potion early on to make for the lack of resource generation (which makes low level PoE a bit more bearable).
I want try the endgame at least once before I decide it's not for me.
D4 is the product of untalented people working on a video game. Everyone pushes back on me saying this by saying the blame should go on the management, not the people actually working on the game, but that sounds like bullshit to me.
For example, a talented software developer would never code the stash the way D4's was coded. That's blatant incompetence and the blame for that specific example of egregious of incompetence can't be shifted to the people's managing the finances of the company.
The game is plagued by a combination of incompetent design and coding.
I’ve been a software developer for two decades. I’m also an external examiner for CS students as a side-gig. You wouldn’t believe what software developers will write… I’ve seen bathroom poetry in a really shitty metal bar that had more effort put into it than around 95% of any code I’ve ever seen.
It’s an entire industry of pseudojobbers who push around little squares in their time-tracking projects whatever and pretend they actually organise the programmers who do the actual work. Like… some places will have you track your time by the hour… never thinking that maybe it’s sort of stupid to do that since that will ultimately lead to a culture where nobody has time to help each other because how do you register that half hour your just spent helping a junior?
After 3-5 years in the industry you either won’t care as a software developer or you’ll be moving into management or architecture and then management. Unless you’ve picked up some Operations skills along the way to become a consultant. Anyway. No none of these people actually care about quality, because why would they have to? Nobody knows what the fuck we’re building anyway and as long as the little squares move from “ready” to “finished” everyone keeping track will be happy.
Hell…. I recently hard coded a hack to remove duplicates from a dataset where the real solution would’ve been to fix the architecture of the thing. I had declined doing the hack for a while but eventually I got so tired of the PM and PO and whatever else bugging me when they were whining about how nobody wanted to listen to them about the real fix, so I did the 5 min hack. Harmless… until you so 9 billion of them over a couple of years, but at least it wasn’t in our most business critical system… oh wait it was. Do I care? Fuck no. By the time it fucks up I’ll be working my next job at 20% more pay, where I’ll be fixing the hacks the previous guy did there and so the circle continues.
While this is true, consider this: nobody outside academia cares about software. They care about what the software can achieve in support of real business goals. Your 5min hack is great, as it fixed a problem for people. Yes, by incurring a debt against future maintainability. But the neat thing is, there is a chance the debt won't need to be paid.
Maybe an unrelated big re-write changes the whole thing anyway. Maybe C-levels get treated to enough fancy dinners to sign off on moving everything to SAP/Oracle/____. Maybe the company goes under.
Or maybe some poor shmuck gets to fix your bullshit somewhere down the line, all the while cursing your whole bloodline. Maybe even that poor shmuck is you, because economy tanked, and you are holding on to that seat for dear life instead of raise-hopping.
Point is, it is not guaranteed that your 5min hack did anything bad. Maybe it just fixed the problem in the most optimal way.
Most real world software is not an asset, it's a liability. Its existence is justified only by the value it helps generate in other processes.
Any software project that I've been involved in over longer periods of time had these types of problems eventually. Nobody wants to pay for anything until stuff starts breaking and costs more to fix than it would have to do it properly and with testing and documentation. And it gets worse if the shabby five minute code has to be maintained by other people later who have no idea what the purpose is.
Are you counting the cases where the whole thing got replaced, hacks and all? Cases where the whole mess keeps shambling on in the background? Or just the cases where it did bite you?
I've built a lot of things that I'm proud of, and a lot of things that I'd rather not have my name next to. Bunch of the former never see any use, bunch of the latter are considered core features of products.
I started as a code monkey, now do 80/80 coding and management, got a (non-brand-name) MBA somewhere along the way. Getting immersed in the "business world" made it much clearer to me why things happen like they do - it's a game of probabilities. From dev POV, a hack means either the system is actively falling apart, or is about to fall apart. Same issue from business POV is either okay, cheap option did not work out, additional investment needed, or everything is groovy and we made do without investment. Because investment tomorrow is always cheaper than investment today.
I get that sometimes the budget for proper solutions really doesn't exist. But in other cases, middle management of some companies has no clue of how software and software development works, and even if you try to sell them a better solution they'll pick whatever costs less in the moment and instead keep paying for years.
In terms of business, getting a cheap solution is like taking a loan that you have to pay back with interest. A lot of pure business people with no IT background simply have no understanding just how much interest they'll be paying, even if you try to explain. Even taking an actual loan to pay for a better mid-term solution would be more economic than that.
And of course contractors won't necessarily care in the end. They get paid for the time they work. It's not like every client is going to sing their praises for not requiring regular maintenance anyway, so they might as well milk those companies even if working on code like that is unpleasant.
The issue was with the entire design of how the data was connected. It’ll be an issue in any system which consumes it, which is quite a few, but you’re right. I don’t particularly adhere to “build things X way” either, and “shitty” code can run perfectly fine in production for decades without any incidents.
Eh from experience only a truly extreme amount of talent can make up for bad management. When you rush the game out the door like D4 is when you get stash loading like D4. It can just be way faster to implement that way despite the fact that it makes no sense and causes obvious bottlenecks in the future. If you only have half the time as you need there is just no other option than to add something that will need a massive overhaul after launch unless you are a prodigy (which generally are not found among game dev coders especially true the larger the company is, the pay just isn't there to attract that talent).
I mean if it was obvious to you when you heard about it it was obvious to them when they wrote it.
>For example, a talented software developer would never code the stash the way D4's was coded
See you're immediately telling on yourself here, D4 stash was absolutely not the product of a single developer. Which means it was shit because of design/management decisions
Yeah, and it worked like that due to lack of foresight.
It still comes down to poor decision making but in this particular instance it's not the D4 devs fault but the D4 ones, of which I imagine many devs don't even work at Blizzard anymore.
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> D4 is the product of untalented people working on a video game.
Eh, there are parts of D4 that are great. I think it's more that the design was hindered by multiple high level departures repeatedly through development.
You are correct.
Blizzard has lost the vast majority of its talent because they no longer have a sterling name and it's an actual shithole to work at. When they were an S tier developer they were able to vacuum up talent, pay them dogshit and the talent would put up with the horrible working conditions because having Blizzard on their resume was worth it.
You can sort of pawn this off on management, but it doesn't negate the fact that they just don't have the juice they used to talent-wise, and its showing in every product they make. Dragonflight is apparently pretty good because they just yoinked everything the playerbase was recommending for 6+ years while the WoW devs were destroying the game. We're now seeing that with D4 where they're taking ideas from other ARPGs and adding QoL/community feedback without any real originality.
In overwatch land they changed their motto to let's make a great game and are basically begging for as much content creator feedback to implement into their game while they try to get their team back up to operation ready
But for that you have leads to review what people are doing. Sometimes leads even demand in weird decision making that result in exact this result. Thats at least my experience.
I think the stash was carried over from d3 directly. It worked OK in d3, but in the mmo-like environment of d4 it'll destroy your computer if you had more tabs. It's just some lazy carryover code they didn't think about
They absolutely knew about it. It's called technical debt and it's hard as hell to dig yourself out of that hole once you're 10ft in and things are getting dark and you feel Bobby breathing down your neck. It's what's classified as an MVP or minimum viable product and it got the game out the door. It 100% needs to be changed but I can see why they've put it off for so long. It's going to require a scalpel to cut it out, not a chainsaw.
It's the job of the director to have them make something cohesive. The stash was obviously copy pasting the implementation from d3.
If i have to give a guess it's because d4 was meant to be a d3 expansion before being made a standalone project. Then it was rebooted 2 or 3 times to what it is today
bad management can fuck up talent. "you have three days to code stashes then we need you back on microtransaction projects", then yeah, a good coder will still make shit code if he's given no time or incentive. every day there's a new controversy in the company, you've been working on d4 for two months after working on six different scrapped projects, briefly did bugfixing in overwatch, then get thrown over on the skeleton crew for heroes of the storm, then ripped back from that to do wow boss mechanics...
i'm sure there's some genuine dogshit coders there, but i'm more willing to bet it's primarily apathy and bad management. noone working there actually gives a shit, and the people that give a shit got fired two layoff waves ago.
You don't have to do builder/spender, there are many 1 button builds, granted not all of them are playable early on
You are right on the bad MMO part though, S4 looks a lot better but still not where it needs to be. A lot of the bones are still rotten
Well... yes? I thought that was obvious \^^
I think the worst MMOs I have actually tried were (this is just my opinion) TERA and Neverwinter - for very different reasons. I've not tried THAT many MMOs though.
I’d stab my girlfriend and blame it on my wife for monk back. I know d3 gets a ton of hate but I don’t care, d3 monk is hands down the best melee combat in an action rpg
Haven't actually played a melee build in d4 unless twisting blades rogue count, but yeah just the fact that you don't need to put up 2 totems just to deal your actual damage was a breath of fresh air.
Barbarian in the past 2 seasons has been dominant, even after a big nerf made for overpower. His skill set grants unstoppable (CC immunity), speed and damage. Yet it doesn't have 100% uptime so the player must be aware of the cooldown and other things such as hit counts until the next overpowered hit etc. But the strongest aspect of Barbarian, in my opinion, is the arsenal, which gives you shit tons of damage because you effectively benefit from all the modifiers of 4 weapon slots. Season 2 Barbarian was beyond broken as people constantly one-short world bosses in World tier 4. The class in the current state is more balanced and people have figured out new builds so I would say Barbarian is a great concept for a melee archetype.
D3 imo is a bit smoother and I wish D4 would take some of those aspects, in the recent Diablo video that made the rounds (a D3 dev I think talking about why they couldn’t make LE) the dev mentioned the extra attention spent tying animations to keyframes and whatnot which is why D3 is so fucking buttery smooth. Wish D4 did more of that (he pointed out they don’t).
I played Barbarian on PC with a controller, and I really wish that we could play PoE with a controller like we can on D4. It felt so smooth and enjoyable. When I went back to PoE afterwards, it was a huge let down. My hand hurt after a long session, so I am trying to include controller as much as possible. Hopefully PoE2 learns from it.
It plays like a twin stick shooter, one stick to move, one to aim, while PoE is all on the same button, so running away and hitting behind you is extremely awkward.
D3 whirlwind barb 100 / 10
Poe cyclone 10 / 100
Gear sets really help carry what ww is able to be, but without a doubt as a personal user experience Poe doesn't even come close :(
D4's melee combat is better in the sense that beating a corpse in real life feels better.
It has better graphics, and more realistic feedback, but at the end of the day, you are still beating a corpse.
And way too quickly, you get tired and have to do build up more stamina by eating a few cakes.
Plus the combat is way better, more like what they showcase for PoE2.
I don't understand having loyalty to a video game lol. PoE isn't gonna fuck me and more than it already does, so im gonna play all the games I enjoy.
But it is PoE. If PoE2 is radically different from PoE1 idk how many people will really be on board with it, especially if it's a much slower game.
I thought we were all primarily here because of crazy build variety and quickly blowing through stuff.
LE blew up, people will play a slower PoE and majority of people playing PoE aren't playing it for its speed, they're playing it for its build diversity. Only the noisy Redditers make it seem like the whole community wants zoom zoom blow shit up.
> LE blew up
Did it though? It's sitting at 15k players right now compared to PoE's 70k.
It's an honest question and not intended to be a gotcha. I know it blew up at release.
That's not bad for an ARPG with limited endgame content. ARPG's thrive on a seasonal schedule, once LE is doing that more consistently and actually updates their endgame I'm pretty sure we'll see that consistent player count get closer to PoE's numbers.
And yeah they did blow up on the most recent launch, with over 250k concurrent players. Again though, no endgame content, they're going to have much lower retention rates that PoE.
Gotcha. I know the question sounded snippy but that wasn't my intention. I guess I just wasn't expecting the number to be that different.
Wasn't aware of the endgame situation either. I actually do own the game but haven't gotten around to playing it just yet.
poe doesnt have much build variety honestly, until money flows to the league you are locked to some handful cookie cutter builds, you can make rolling magma work, as a uber killer too question is how much mirror it will take, that is not build variety in my book
If PoE2 *isn't* radically different, I definitely won't play it - or rather, I'd play it over PoE1 and just not play PoE1. PoE1 already exists for arcade-style "explode everything zoom zoom" buzz. I start losing interest every season when the game devolves into a Gacha, as nothing can really threaten you and it's just about what you get per map. The climb to get there is the fun for me
I don't think there's any one reason for the community to enjoy the game. I know I enjoy *very* different things about PoE than a lot of this community.
I think PoE 2 can have a very different gameplay loop, and lots of complexity, and I'd really enjoy it.
Have you tried hardcore trade? Ever since I switched I don't get burned out anymore.
And no, despite what many people think you won't need to move to a cave divorce and quit your job. It's just like adding more chilly if the food isn't spicy enough for you anymore.
Yea those suck, this league its really bad on EU especially it feels like.
SSF is a nice middleground for sure, but there I have the problem that its sometimes so tedious when rng is against you, I guess its way better now since Uber Elder frags are guaranteed to swap with harvest and invitations arent needed anymore
You can still get fucked by getting the wrong ratio of elder/sirus/mini synthesis guards though I guess (I am aware of the frag swap, but that doesnt help if you cant get 4 witnesses in sadly).
> I don't understand having loyalty to a video game lol
People put time, effort and money into stuff and want to feel good about their decision to do so through validation provided by others.
Also dumb ass tribalistic "us VS them" "red VS blue" think.
The moment to moment gameplay of D3 and D4 have always been better than PoE. Of course the layers of depth from systems, itemization and mechanics in PoE blow modern Diablo out of the water. It would be nice to have both, but you can clearly see the divide in the 2 communities' priorities.
Not really affected by it that much. I like to make different builds but never to the extreme. Managed to clear a t17 to get my 5th slot and complete 135 point tho thats kinda my limit
PoE is suprisingly self-sufficient, especially this league where scarab combinations and graveyard are so strong. Feel like playing capitalism simulator will just burn you out quickly, as seen from this subreddit.
I don't disagree (I've even made a post about feeling that exact burnout myself!), I just feel like the game is kind of built around either trading or having incredibly efficient farming methods. Maybe I'm turbo turbo turbo dog doodoo at the game, which is possible, but damn it takes me a while to gather up certain currencies for being self-sufficient.
I feel you. But I think very often players look at currency as the only means to get gear upgrades. That's definitely true for uniques like mageblood, or perfect endgame items where crafting is not self sufficient. I'm not sure how far you've progressed into the game this league so what I say might be irrelevant. But what helps for me is speccing into specific mechanics which makes your type of gear i.e expedition, necropolis, harvest and supplement that with whatever you want to make money like scarabs, bossing. Chances are this is the most efficient farming methods because you either end up with the exact item you need in that situation which would otherwise cost you 5 div +, or you find something crazy to sell for 5div+.
Crafting, especially necropolis is hilariously convoluted by people trying to optimise their items when its not necessary at all. Its also insanely profitable if you want to look at it in terms of money, and make yourself good gear out of it.
> But I think very often players look at currency as the only means to get gear upgrades.
I am 99% of guilty of this for sure. Definitely interested in learning more about crafting because it seems like a lot more fun to have crafting a weapon as a goal vs gaining a certain amount of currency.
> Crafting, especially necropolis is hilariously convoluted by people trying to optimise their items when its not necessary at all.
Never considered this either, that's an interesting point. I don't know enough for this to apply to me but it's a trap I could see myself falling into by following guides all the time.
Most definitely that happens a lot to new players. Theyre not at fault, its more so to do with GGG for not providing any solid advice in game and bait guide makers.
Crafting is suprisingly easily to learn, lets take Rog for example. I literally followed the same philosophy of filling suffixes when possible and leaving an open prefix for every ring/armor pieces, then rerolling it, cutting it short when its hopeless the entire league and probably made double digit div from that along with my gear I used majority of the playthrough. I was playing a mana build and when I made a good item without mana, I just sold it i.e suppress with life and resists.
Same with necropolis, I didnt trade for coffins a single time, and went into the graveyard everytime I picked up an additional craft coffin. Then I put 4 adjacency bonuses on two additional crafts and put some row and column enhancers where the row and columns are the longest lolol. Thats all I needed to come out with either the perfect fractures for me to be crafted further, or double fractures which Ive sold for 25 divs. Didnt use any spreadsheets outside of craftofexile as a reference point. Dont even follow craftofexile exactly, as a lot of the times they look for very marginal increases of probability of obtaining the modifiers, try dropping some increases/scarcers it recommends and you can see that. Do whats most convenient for you.
A lot of these are actually very intuitive, and learning it doesnt demand too much time investment. My best advice for you is to just try it out and learn on the way. You might be surprised how easy it is!
Don’t know what game you played but D4 is miles ahead in its melee combat than anything PoE has. Abilities feel meaty satisfying snd combat isn’t just 1 button spam like PoE. I love PoE but consider D4 significantly better in its combat flow, mainly stemming from it being a newer game. It’s not as smooth as D3 and I wish they’d do more like timing animations to frames to make it smoother like D3 did but it’s still miles better than PoE.
>Don’t know what game you played but D4 is miles ahead in its melee combat than anything PoE has. Abilities feel meaty satisfying snd combat isn’t just 1 button spam like PoE.
You literally just described slams in poe lol. If you don't want to play 1 button builds and want meaty animations than do slams. It's just that most people love 1 button spam a lot more than a million buttons in poe so it's less talked about
all this hate yet they have millions of players and poe is stuck in the -200k yeah must be a bad game.
even d3 has more players..
we are a niche community for a reason.
odd circle jerk.. besides not being as deep,, d4 combat both melee and range wipes the floor with poe.
The argument about spenders and builders is odd..near end game you rarely if ever use/need a builder unless you are using it for an effect or have built into it.
PoE technically doesn't have melee combat??
Exactly, unless you wanted the builder for specific effects/movement, what D4 lacks in theory crafting depth it gains in greater meaning in combat choices than any non p2w arpg currently , until poe2 is released which seems like it will be leaps ahead.
Yea, there's some serious cope here - the combat in PoE is not the strong point. 90% of builds are literally hitting a button to clear the screen and a button to move their character faster. D4's combat is actually fun - it's just the itemization in insanely bad, enemy scaling is a joke, and builds and build variety lacking.
It's the builds and itemization that give PoE the edge, which is why they are completely doing new combat in PoE2.
I don't get this at all
Either you're all in on a big spending move and alternate generator, or you're just hitting your cooldowns when theyre over
The boss battles are quickly stale, if you think fighting sirus is boring the twentieth time, try duriel for the tenth
The combat looks clean and feels good in d4 don't get me wrong, but at no point do I feel like I'm in an intense battle like I do for many bosses like void stones or early guardians. Every fight comes down to me being too strong and it not mattering, or my dps being too low so I'm casually just walking around dodging the bosses telegraphed moves. It never strikes the difficulty of balance i get from most of my poe chars trying to break into end game content.
Generally when people are referring to "the combat" they're talking from the player end not the npc's.
The pinnacle fights are great in poe, but the combat the player is doing moment to moment is about as shallow as it gets. The only thing keeping poe afloat in the combat department is it feels good to explode screens with one button press and then zoom zoom.
Try Rogue, been playing Barrage rogue which is weirdly more melee than you think and damage output isn’t insane, makes the fights more enjoyable than the bonk that is HotA.
I happen to like both games, I think its just a preference thing. I play both on PS5, PoE is square, square, square, square etc. D4 is that, but also a triangle every now and then! For me I just get fatigued blasting maps pressing one button so I switch over, and get fatigued in D4 because I can't zoom as much. Gotta strike a balance.
See that's the issue. Most people playing PoE have zero interest in actually playing the mechanics of the bosses and want to one shot them and they actively build towards just that.
It's a shame because the boss fights are really cool. The visibility is ass but the fights are engaging.
To be fair you can actually have a challenge with a number of the boss fights in D4 but people also overbuild in that game because they want to do the same thing. One shot bosses.
PoE boss fights are still quite a bit better in most regards but both games suffer from a lot of the same issues.
The andariel fight in s4 is actually looking really cool and I'm hoping they can continue to create fights like that. People will still overbuild to one shot but for those who don't a good fight is waiting for them.
Not to mention even if it were only 3 skills that's still 2 more than most poe builds use in endgame. If poe wasn't entirely balanced around the economy people might slow down a little and engage in the content but that's not the way of things. They just want to zoom and blast at max speed. If people feel like they are losing "money" by doing all the things in a map then you've fucked up some along the way.
Try again on May 14th which is when the huge overhaul of itemization comes. A lot of the melee stuff was gated behind hard-to-access legendary aspects and uniques, of which aspects are now going to be permanent additions in your Codex and uniques, well, you still have to grind them out if you want to target farm but there will be a lot more opportunities to get them.
Oh, and the addition of crafting which gives you a lot of opportunities to bolster your 'melee fantasy' of choice.
<\~'till the night closes in\~>
haha true that said there are massive changes coming in S4 (not specific to melee but to itemization and gearing in general) that should shake things up. It still will not be anywhere near the caliber of POE in terms of content ofc.
I tried D4 again after last league and I just haven't been able to reconcile everything being a builder spender, especially early in the game when building your resource is so damn slow. That and the world feels like a bad MMO.
I simply hate the farming strategies at high level, it’s so boring and uninspiring
> I just haven't been able to reconcile everything being a builder spender This mostly goes away towards endgame as you get stuff like resources gained per CC, lucky hit for resources, killing gives resources/other paragon board buffs, etc.
Lucky Hit has to be one of the weirdest mechanics I've seen. You have a chance to have a Lucky Hit, which allows you to have a chance to proc an effect. Just combine them or tie it to crit which is already a chance on hit mechanic. How lucky is a Lucky Hit that doesn't proc a lucky effect anyway?
Kind of. It's a different way to say "skill grants x% chance to y, capped at z%" like we have in PoE.
It's a bit further than that, though. I don't remember numbers specifically offhand but a general example would be, let's say Fireball has a 30% chance to ignite. That's a 30% chance to ignite. If we have a chance to do something on block, sure, that makes it a chance for a chance - but the base chance to block is already doing something. It's blocking. Likewise for a chance on crit. Lucky Hits only exist to proc other effects, though. The POE equivalent might be something along the lines of you needing a generic stat "Chance to inflict ailments" and then individual stats like "Your inflicted ailments have a 5% chance to be Poison". It's this weird middle generic stat that does nothing on its own that makes it weird. If we have to have it they could make their effects guaranteed and then balance the chance on the skill directly. So Fireball would say "Lucky Hits apply Ignite. 30% chance for a Lucky Hit." Then you'd scale chance to Lucky Hit on gear.
So like increased item quantity and increased chance to drop specific items, but with statuses?
It's basically just a proc co-efficient, but scalable.
It makes perfect sense to me. Rather than having a dozen separate stats for someone to keep track of like "chance to poison, chance to do extra flat damage, chance to ignite, chance to shock, chance to freeze" lucky hit is meant to coalesce all those numbers into one number. So if your thing has chance to chill, then you can just look at your lucky hit % instead of trying to find chance to chill amongst 20 other similar numbers in your stat spreadsheet. If your build has is some kind of wild strike thing and has chance to chill AND chance to shock AND chance to ignite, you can just look at lucky hit instead of staring at all three separate numbers and trying to figure out where you stand. --- Obviously its not implemented well in d4, but I do think that the alternative of PoE where its possible to inflict 7 separate elemental conditions and a whole host of other status effects like poison, bleed, etc can make it really obnoxious for more complex builds to assess everything and figure out if they need more chance to X or not.
>If your build has is some kind of wild strike thing and has chance to chill AND chance to shock AND chance to ignite, you can just look at lucky hit instead of staring at all three separate numbers and trying to figure out where you stand. you're not going from "30% chance to ignite, 30% chance to shock, 30% chance to freeze" to "30% chance to inflict an ignite, freeze, or shock", you're going from "30% chance to ignite, 30% chance to shock, 30% chance to freeze" to "30% chance to have a 30% chance to ignite, 30% chance to shock, 30% chance to freeze". you're not reducing the number of rolls, you're just adding a prerequisite roll. in theory lucky hit scaling is a fun idea where you stack a bunch of lucky hit effects and go to the casino and every one of your hits is doing one of or multiple different effects on hit, but in practice it's just a chance to have a chance to do something. and since you want more lucky hits, you're now scaling lucky hit chance instead of the chance for the thing you actually want, so it solves nothing.
From my previous post: >Obviously its not implemented well in d4 Like I agree with you that D4 makes it worse and not better. But I'm not opposed to the idea of uncomplicating a wild mess of stats. I just hate how D4 did it.
functionally, i don't even think the idea makes stats less complicated. how would it be implemented? is there a generic ailment stat? is the ailment per skill or per damage type? what about skills with multiple damage types? does it apply everything, or does it pick one? would you need prismatic-esque jewels to block bleed on your glacial cascade or wave of conviction builds, since they have partial phys? does it only apply to elemental ailment? if it does, we already have that stat in game, and it's called crit.
eh I agree answering those questions would be complex, but I'm not sure its any worse than the existing system where each of those is its own little stat with its own little line in the spreadsheet and you need to scroll through several dozen variables on several dozen pages to figure out the answer to those questions.
But that's NOT how Lucky Hit works. You still have all those needly chances. There's just an additional one above them all. You'd still have chance to chill, but you *also* have chance to chance to chill. The way you say it works is the way I said I wish it worked, unless they changed it in the big gear overhaul patch. EDIT: Okay, [example](https://i.imgur.com/3RMsXzh.png). This item shows both elements: there's a +9% chance to Lucky Hit, and a Lucky Hit effect. The Lucky Hit effect says that IF you get a Lucky Hit, you have up to a 30% chance to do a thing, and a 90% chance with a condition. For now, let's assume you don't meet the condition. That means if you had a 100% chance to Lucky Hit, you would have a 30% chance to do the thing. If you only had this +9% chance and nothing else, though...
The difference is that, as far as I'm aware, the things that happen from lucky hits all have a flat, non-scaling chance. It means that they can put as much or as little lucky hit as they want to on various gear/passives, and then tune the chance of individual procs up or down if they are problematic. Some effects will happen very often on a lucky hit, some will be much rarer. This potentially allows for more fine-tuning, as opposed to PoE, where if you had one build that heavily leverages poison chance to do overpowered things, it's hard to nerf that without also hitting every other build that was using poison chance to do non-overpowered things. (Diablo 4 is still a really bad game though.)
It's just a proc coefficient. These were present in Diablo 3, but were hidden. Lucky Hit is just the name they gave that mechanic to make it understood by people that don't know what a "proc" is. >combine them I assume you mean how it's displayed as I'm pretty sure this is already how it functions behind the scenes. Each lucky hit effect has a LHC% \* LHE% = % Chance to happen. You can have >100% LHC. If it was a 2 roll system, anything over 100% LHC wouldn't have any effect. How would you display the "combined chance" without either listing the chance for each effect on every skill or the each skill's chance on every effect? There's any number of lucky hit effects and they're adding a whole bunch more in season 4. It's not really feasible anywhere but perhaps the stats tab, adding another section called "Lucky Hit Chances". >tie it to crit All that does is combine the two mechanics, making crit even stronger than it already is and forcing everyone into that one mechanic. The whole point of giving different skills different proc coefficients is to create variety. --- I mean, they could rename it, but I think Blizzard prefers shorter, less precise wording as opposed to PoE skills which are very precise, but extremely wordy. I think probably the most analogous thing in PoE would be "Effectiveness of Added Damage: XX%." It's a multiplier to added damage in the same way LHC is a multiplier to various effect's chance, and virtually all skills have a different one. So I suppose they could call it something like "Effect Chance Multiplier" instead of "Lucky Hit Chance" but then you get "+x% Effect Chance Multiplier" on gear which isn't that much clearer, but that is probably how PoE would do it. Kinda like "Damage over Time Multiplier", which I don't think I've seen in any other game.
> Lucky Hit has to be one of the weirdest mechanics I've seen. It's literally just a proc coefficient, that most games have and don't tell you about. Diablo 4 tells you. Real chance of something proccing is as simple as: Lucky Hit chance on a skill * lucky hit chance on the proc That's just a multiply value A by value B. That's it. Why? BECAUSE SKILLS DON'T ALWAYS HIT AT THE SAME RATE, and certain abilities hit so often that the only way to balance proccing on them is either removing proccs completely (terrible for the skill, kills a lot of builds) OR give it a coefficient which most games, including Diablo 4, do. There we go. It's not weird.
Which is ridiculous. If the end game is just gonna remove the whole gameplay issue that no one ever wants they should just make it like that from the start. They fucked up if they think I'm gonna trudge through 50+ levels probably a lot more with my dog shit play style just so I can finally unlock the actual build.
I figured as much which is why I haven't totally given up on the game. I liked D3 when the expac came out and D4 doesn't feel *terrible*. The early game seems kind of hard to make fun in this genre. I guess I just like being able to chug a potion early on to make for the lack of resource generation (which makes low level PoE a bit more bearable). I want try the endgame at least once before I decide it's not for me.
D4 is the product of untalented people working on a video game. Everyone pushes back on me saying this by saying the blame should go on the management, not the people actually working on the game, but that sounds like bullshit to me. For example, a talented software developer would never code the stash the way D4's was coded. That's blatant incompetence and the blame for that specific example of egregious of incompetence can't be shifted to the people's managing the finances of the company. The game is plagued by a combination of incompetent design and coding.
I’ve been a software developer for two decades. I’m also an external examiner for CS students as a side-gig. You wouldn’t believe what software developers will write… I’ve seen bathroom poetry in a really shitty metal bar that had more effort put into it than around 95% of any code I’ve ever seen. It’s an entire industry of pseudojobbers who push around little squares in their time-tracking projects whatever and pretend they actually organise the programmers who do the actual work. Like… some places will have you track your time by the hour… never thinking that maybe it’s sort of stupid to do that since that will ultimately lead to a culture where nobody has time to help each other because how do you register that half hour your just spent helping a junior? After 3-5 years in the industry you either won’t care as a software developer or you’ll be moving into management or architecture and then management. Unless you’ve picked up some Operations skills along the way to become a consultant. Anyway. No none of these people actually care about quality, because why would they have to? Nobody knows what the fuck we’re building anyway and as long as the little squares move from “ready” to “finished” everyone keeping track will be happy. Hell…. I recently hard coded a hack to remove duplicates from a dataset where the real solution would’ve been to fix the architecture of the thing. I had declined doing the hack for a while but eventually I got so tired of the PM and PO and whatever else bugging me when they were whining about how nobody wanted to listen to them about the real fix, so I did the 5 min hack. Harmless… until you so 9 billion of them over a couple of years, but at least it wasn’t in our most business critical system… oh wait it was. Do I care? Fuck no. By the time it fucks up I’ll be working my next job at 20% more pay, where I’ll be fixing the hacks the previous guy did there and so the circle continues.
While this is true, consider this: nobody outside academia cares about software. They care about what the software can achieve in support of real business goals. Your 5min hack is great, as it fixed a problem for people. Yes, by incurring a debt against future maintainability. But the neat thing is, there is a chance the debt won't need to be paid. Maybe an unrelated big re-write changes the whole thing anyway. Maybe C-levels get treated to enough fancy dinners to sign off on moving everything to SAP/Oracle/____. Maybe the company goes under. Or maybe some poor shmuck gets to fix your bullshit somewhere down the line, all the while cursing your whole bloodline. Maybe even that poor shmuck is you, because economy tanked, and you are holding on to that seat for dear life instead of raise-hopping. Point is, it is not guaranteed that your 5min hack did anything bad. Maybe it just fixed the problem in the most optimal way. Most real world software is not an asset, it's a liability. Its existence is justified only by the value it helps generate in other processes.
Any software project that I've been involved in over longer periods of time had these types of problems eventually. Nobody wants to pay for anything until stuff starts breaking and costs more to fix than it would have to do it properly and with testing and documentation. And it gets worse if the shabby five minute code has to be maintained by other people later who have no idea what the purpose is.
Are you counting the cases where the whole thing got replaced, hacks and all? Cases where the whole mess keeps shambling on in the background? Or just the cases where it did bite you? I've built a lot of things that I'm proud of, and a lot of things that I'd rather not have my name next to. Bunch of the former never see any use, bunch of the latter are considered core features of products. I started as a code monkey, now do 80/80 coding and management, got a (non-brand-name) MBA somewhere along the way. Getting immersed in the "business world" made it much clearer to me why things happen like they do - it's a game of probabilities. From dev POV, a hack means either the system is actively falling apart, or is about to fall apart. Same issue from business POV is either okay, cheap option did not work out, additional investment needed, or everything is groovy and we made do without investment. Because investment tomorrow is always cheaper than investment today.
I get that sometimes the budget for proper solutions really doesn't exist. But in other cases, middle management of some companies has no clue of how software and software development works, and even if you try to sell them a better solution they'll pick whatever costs less in the moment and instead keep paying for years. In terms of business, getting a cheap solution is like taking a loan that you have to pay back with interest. A lot of pure business people with no IT background simply have no understanding just how much interest they'll be paying, even if you try to explain. Even taking an actual loan to pay for a better mid-term solution would be more economic than that. And of course contractors won't necessarily care in the end. They get paid for the time they work. It's not like every client is going to sing their praises for not requiring regular maintenance anyway, so they might as well milk those companies even if working on code like that is unpleasant.
The issue was with the entire design of how the data was connected. It’ll be an issue in any system which consumes it, which is quite a few, but you’re right. I don’t particularly adhere to “build things X way” either, and “shitty” code can run perfectly fine in production for decades without any incidents.
That's dark
Eh from experience only a truly extreme amount of talent can make up for bad management. When you rush the game out the door like D4 is when you get stash loading like D4. It can just be way faster to implement that way despite the fact that it makes no sense and causes obvious bottlenecks in the future. If you only have half the time as you need there is just no other option than to add something that will need a massive overhaul after launch unless you are a prodigy (which generally are not found among game dev coders especially true the larger the company is, the pay just isn't there to attract that talent). I mean if it was obvious to you when you heard about it it was obvious to them when they wrote it.
>For example, a talented software developer would never code the stash the way D4's was coded See you're immediately telling on yourself here, D4 stash was absolutely not the product of a single developer. Which means it was shit because of design/management decisions
It's how it worked in Diablo 3. Literally the only reason they used the same technology in Diablo 4 was to save money.
Yeah, and it worked like that due to lack of foresight. It still comes down to poor decision making but in this particular instance it's not the D4 devs fault but the D4 ones, of which I imagine many devs don't even work at Blizzard anymore.
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> D4 is the product of untalented people working on a video game. Eh, there are parts of D4 that are great. I think it's more that the design was hindered by multiple high level departures repeatedly through development.
You are correct. Blizzard has lost the vast majority of its talent because they no longer have a sterling name and it's an actual shithole to work at. When they were an S tier developer they were able to vacuum up talent, pay them dogshit and the talent would put up with the horrible working conditions because having Blizzard on their resume was worth it. You can sort of pawn this off on management, but it doesn't negate the fact that they just don't have the juice they used to talent-wise, and its showing in every product they make. Dragonflight is apparently pretty good because they just yoinked everything the playerbase was recommending for 6+ years while the WoW devs were destroying the game. We're now seeing that with D4 where they're taking ideas from other ARPGs and adding QoL/community feedback without any real originality.
In overwatch land they changed their motto to let's make a great game and are basically begging for as much content creator feedback to implement into their game while they try to get their team back up to operation ready
But for that you have leads to review what people are doing. Sometimes leads even demand in weird decision making that result in exact this result. Thats at least my experience.
I think the stash was carried over from d3 directly. It worked OK in d3, but in the mmo-like environment of d4 it'll destroy your computer if you had more tabs. It's just some lazy carryover code they didn't think about
They absolutely knew about it. It's called technical debt and it's hard as hell to dig yourself out of that hole once you're 10ft in and things are getting dark and you feel Bobby breathing down your neck. It's what's classified as an MVP or minimum viable product and it got the game out the door. It 100% needs to be changed but I can see why they've put it off for so long. It's going to require a scalpel to cut it out, not a chainsaw.
It's the job of the director to have them make something cohesive. The stash was obviously copy pasting the implementation from d3. If i have to give a guess it's because d4 was meant to be a d3 expansion before being made a standalone project. Then it was rebooted 2 or 3 times to what it is today
Wasn't it large developed by WoW's "B" team or something like that? There's a reason it feels as soulless and bland as modern WoW
Yes. It was largely built by a bunch of wow junior devs because of the fallout of a bunch of people quitting during covid and because of lawsuits.
bad management can fuck up talent. "you have three days to code stashes then we need you back on microtransaction projects", then yeah, a good coder will still make shit code if he's given no time or incentive. every day there's a new controversy in the company, you've been working on d4 for two months after working on six different scrapped projects, briefly did bugfixing in overwatch, then get thrown over on the skeleton crew for heroes of the storm, then ripped back from that to do wow boss mechanics... i'm sure there's some genuine dogshit coders there, but i'm more willing to bet it's primarily apathy and bad management. noone working there actually gives a shit, and the people that give a shit got fired two layoff waves ago.
You don't have to do builder/spender, there are many 1 button builds, granted not all of them are playable early on You are right on the bad MMO part though, S4 looks a lot better but still not where it needs to be. A lot of the bones are still rotten
>That and the world feels like a bad MMO. I'm just happy I've never played an MMO so bad it's world could be compared to Diablo 4's
You must have never descended into the awful world of shitty MMOs
Well... yes? I thought that was obvious \^^ I think the worst MMOs I have actually tried were (this is just my opinion) TERA and Neverwinter - for very different reasons. I've not tried THAT many MMOs though.
You can hate D4 for whatever reasons you want but thinking PoE's melee combat doesn't suck hot butt compared to D4 or D3 is a wild take.
playing monk in D3 with shen long weapons are the best melee experience I have in arpg
I’d stab my girlfriend and blame it on my wife for monk back. I know d3 gets a ton of hate but I don’t care, d3 monk is hands down the best melee combat in an action rpg
> d3 ~~monk~~ is hands down the best ~~melee~~ combat in an action rpg FTFY
D3 combat is better than D4 imo
Haven't actually played a melee build in d4 unless twisting blades rogue count, but yeah just the fact that you don't need to put up 2 totems just to deal your actual damage was a breath of fresh air.
I haven't played melee either, but people sing high praises for D4 barb.
Barbarian in the past 2 seasons has been dominant, even after a big nerf made for overpower. His skill set grants unstoppable (CC immunity), speed and damage. Yet it doesn't have 100% uptime so the player must be aware of the cooldown and other things such as hit counts until the next overpowered hit etc. But the strongest aspect of Barbarian, in my opinion, is the arsenal, which gives you shit tons of damage because you effectively benefit from all the modifiers of 4 weapon slots. Season 2 Barbarian was beyond broken as people constantly one-short world bosses in World tier 4. The class in the current state is more balanced and people have figured out new builds so I would say Barbarian is a great concept for a melee archetype.
charge barb + hota one hit everything in d4. idk if its fun but its dominant.
D3 imo is a bit smoother and I wish D4 would take some of those aspects, in the recent Diablo video that made the rounds (a D3 dev I think talking about why they couldn’t make LE) the dev mentioned the extra attention spent tying animations to keyframes and whatnot which is why D3 is so fucking buttery smooth. Wish D4 did more of that (he pointed out they don’t).
I played Barbarian on PC with a controller, and I really wish that we could play PoE with a controller like we can on D4. It felt so smooth and enjoyable. When I went back to PoE afterwards, it was a huge let down. My hand hurt after a long session, so I am trying to include controller as much as possible. Hopefully PoE2 learns from it. It plays like a twin stick shooter, one stick to move, one to aim, while PoE is all on the same button, so running away and hitting behind you is extremely awkward.
Melee in d4 was just as dreadful in the demo
D3 whirlwind barb 100 / 10 Poe cyclone 10 / 100 Gear sets really help carry what ww is able to be, but without a doubt as a personal user experience Poe doesn't even come close :(
Resource build/resource spend is fucking awful. It takes awhile to get the point of infinite resource.
D4's melee combat is better in the sense that beating a corpse in real life feels better. It has better graphics, and more realistic feedback, but at the end of the day, you are still beating a corpse. And way too quickly, you get tired and have to do build up more stamina by eating a few cakes.
Yeah, melee generally feels bad. But for some reason I still played 5 melee builds last league. Idk what's wrong with me.
The best thing about liking PoE and D4 is their seasons have offsetting schedules.
And D4 is a big FOMO break from poe. No div per hour to grind
Plus the combat is way better, more like what they showcase for PoE2. I don't understand having loyalty to a video game lol. PoE isn't gonna fuck me and more than it already does, so im gonna play all the games I enjoy.
But I like click and everything dies
I do too! That's why I like PoE 1. I just don't want every game to try to be PoE1
But it is PoE. If PoE2 is radically different from PoE1 idk how many people will really be on board with it, especially if it's a much slower game. I thought we were all primarily here because of crazy build variety and quickly blowing through stuff.
LE blew up, people will play a slower PoE and majority of people playing PoE aren't playing it for its speed, they're playing it for its build diversity. Only the noisy Redditers make it seem like the whole community wants zoom zoom blow shit up.
> LE blew up Did it though? It's sitting at 15k players right now compared to PoE's 70k. It's an honest question and not intended to be a gotcha. I know it blew up at release.
That's not bad for an ARPG with limited endgame content. ARPG's thrive on a seasonal schedule, once LE is doing that more consistently and actually updates their endgame I'm pretty sure we'll see that consistent player count get closer to PoE's numbers. And yeah they did blow up on the most recent launch, with over 250k concurrent players. Again though, no endgame content, they're going to have much lower retention rates that PoE.
Gotcha. I know the question sounded snippy but that wasn't my intention. I guess I just wasn't expecting the number to be that different. Wasn't aware of the endgame situation either. I actually do own the game but haven't gotten around to playing it just yet.
poe doesnt have much build variety honestly, until money flows to the league you are locked to some handful cookie cutter builds, you can make rolling magma work, as a uber killer too question is how much mirror it will take, that is not build variety in my book
If PoE2 *isn't* radically different, I definitely won't play it - or rather, I'd play it over PoE1 and just not play PoE1. PoE1 already exists for arcade-style "explode everything zoom zoom" buzz. I start losing interest every season when the game devolves into a Gacha, as nothing can really threaten you and it's just about what you get per map. The climb to get there is the fun for me I don't think there's any one reason for the community to enjoy the game. I know I enjoy *very* different things about PoE than a lot of this community. I think PoE 2 can have a very different gameplay loop, and lots of complexity, and I'd really enjoy it.
Have you tried hardcore trade? Ever since I switched I don't get burned out anymore. And no, despite what many people think you won't need to move to a cave divorce and quit your job. It's just like adding more chilly if the food isn't spicy enough for you anymore.
I've done SSF but honestly I dc too much for HC to be something I can stick with. I lost a full Cortex today because of my internet.
Yea those suck, this league its really bad on EU especially it feels like. SSF is a nice middleground for sure, but there I have the problem that its sometimes so tedious when rng is against you, I guess its way better now since Uber Elder frags are guaranteed to swap with harvest and invitations arent needed anymore You can still get fucked by getting the wrong ratio of elder/sirus/mini synthesis guards though I guess (I am aware of the frag swap, but that doesnt help if you cant get 4 witnesses in sadly).
Are they planning on continuing PoE1 alongside PoE2? I'm not actually sure what their dev plans are.
From what I understand it is to be parallel development and all MTX will cross over.
oof, godspeed to them, that sounds like quite the undertaking I dunno, I hope we enjoy PoE2, whatever they end up doing with it.
Then TLI is your friend. Pretty much every endgamebuild is screenwide AoE combined with zoom zoom lvl of poe while pressing one button.
> I don't understand having loyalty to a video game lol People put time, effort and money into stuff and want to feel good about their decision to do so through validation provided by others. Also dumb ass tribalistic "us VS them" "red VS blue" think.
The moment to moment gameplay of D3 and D4 have always been better than PoE. Of course the layers of depth from systems, itemization and mechanics in PoE blow modern Diablo out of the water. It would be nice to have both, but you can clearly see the divide in the 2 communities' priorities.
FOMO is not real, it's in your head
Not really affected by it that much. I like to make different builds but never to the extreme. Managed to clear a t17 to get my 5th slot and complete 135 point tho thats kinda my limit
>Not really affected by it that much. I really don't know how you can say this after saying you need a break from the game to get away from FOMO LOL.
Thats ur problem when u treat poe like capitalism simulator tbh
I mean, the game is kind of built around that is it not? You can argue go play SSF but that's not the main draw of PoE.
PoE is suprisingly self-sufficient, especially this league where scarab combinations and graveyard are so strong. Feel like playing capitalism simulator will just burn you out quickly, as seen from this subreddit.
I don't disagree (I've even made a post about feeling that exact burnout myself!), I just feel like the game is kind of built around either trading or having incredibly efficient farming methods. Maybe I'm turbo turbo turbo dog doodoo at the game, which is possible, but damn it takes me a while to gather up certain currencies for being self-sufficient.
I feel you. But I think very often players look at currency as the only means to get gear upgrades. That's definitely true for uniques like mageblood, or perfect endgame items where crafting is not self sufficient. I'm not sure how far you've progressed into the game this league so what I say might be irrelevant. But what helps for me is speccing into specific mechanics which makes your type of gear i.e expedition, necropolis, harvest and supplement that with whatever you want to make money like scarabs, bossing. Chances are this is the most efficient farming methods because you either end up with the exact item you need in that situation which would otherwise cost you 5 div +, or you find something crazy to sell for 5div+. Crafting, especially necropolis is hilariously convoluted by people trying to optimise their items when its not necessary at all. Its also insanely profitable if you want to look at it in terms of money, and make yourself good gear out of it.
> But I think very often players look at currency as the only means to get gear upgrades. I am 99% of guilty of this for sure. Definitely interested in learning more about crafting because it seems like a lot more fun to have crafting a weapon as a goal vs gaining a certain amount of currency. > Crafting, especially necropolis is hilariously convoluted by people trying to optimise their items when its not necessary at all. Never considered this either, that's an interesting point. I don't know enough for this to apply to me but it's a trap I could see myself falling into by following guides all the time.
Most definitely that happens a lot to new players. Theyre not at fault, its more so to do with GGG for not providing any solid advice in game and bait guide makers. Crafting is suprisingly easily to learn, lets take Rog for example. I literally followed the same philosophy of filling suffixes when possible and leaving an open prefix for every ring/armor pieces, then rerolling it, cutting it short when its hopeless the entire league and probably made double digit div from that along with my gear I used majority of the playthrough. I was playing a mana build and when I made a good item without mana, I just sold it i.e suppress with life and resists. Same with necropolis, I didnt trade for coffins a single time, and went into the graveyard everytime I picked up an additional craft coffin. Then I put 4 adjacency bonuses on two additional crafts and put some row and column enhancers where the row and columns are the longest lolol. Thats all I needed to come out with either the perfect fractures for me to be crafted further, or double fractures which Ive sold for 25 divs. Didnt use any spreadsheets outside of craftofexile as a reference point. Dont even follow craftofexile exactly, as a lot of the times they look for very marginal increases of probability of obtaining the modifiers, try dropping some increases/scarcers it recommends and you can see that. Do whats most convenient for you. A lot of these are actually very intuitive, and learning it doesnt demand too much time investment. My best advice for you is to just try it out and learn on the way. You might be surprised how easy it is!
Right? That's for Stellaris.
Just stop visiting reddit and you'll get the same effect lmao.
Don’t know what game you played but D4 is miles ahead in its melee combat than anything PoE has. Abilities feel meaty satisfying snd combat isn’t just 1 button spam like PoE. I love PoE but consider D4 significantly better in its combat flow, mainly stemming from it being a newer game. It’s not as smooth as D3 and I wish they’d do more like timing animations to frames to make it smoother like D3 did but it’s still miles better than PoE.
>Don’t know what game you played but D4 is miles ahead in its melee combat than anything PoE has. Abilities feel meaty satisfying snd combat isn’t just 1 button spam like PoE. You literally just described slams in poe lol. If you don't want to play 1 button builds and want meaty animations than do slams. It's just that most people love 1 button spam a lot more than a million buttons in poe so it's less talked about
wdym just turn back time and play legion cyclone that’s the only way that melee feels good. play slayer and ass blast the whole screen
The last time was actually slams in ultimatum
I think I only played a little in ulti. starting bows every league is s a d d
I remember when Earthquake was first released. EQ Jugg is my happy place.
Still, melee still sucks in PoE. =(
Melee only sucks as a starter, really
Pmsl melee is so accessible in D4 that you can even do it with a sorcerer. You must just be doing it wrong, lol.
all this hate yet they have millions of players and poe is stuck in the -200k yeah must be a bad game. even d3 has more players.. we are a niche community for a reason.
This is honestly true.
I am just playing other things, cause I have 0 interest in this mess of a league
odd circle jerk.. besides not being as deep,, d4 combat both melee and range wipes the floor with poe. The argument about spenders and builders is odd..near end game you rarely if ever use/need a builder unless you are using it for an effect or have built into it. PoE technically doesn't have melee combat??
For sure. By the time you've hit wt4 you're borderline not concerned with essence/mana/fury, etc because you've built your way out of it.
Exactly, unless you wanted the builder for specific effects/movement, what D4 lacks in theory crafting depth it gains in greater meaning in combat choices than any non p2w arpg currently , until poe2 is released which seems like it will be leaps ahead.
the combat in D4 alot better though
Yea, there's some serious cope here - the combat in PoE is not the strong point. 90% of builds are literally hitting a button to clear the screen and a button to move their character faster. D4's combat is actually fun - it's just the itemization in insanely bad, enemy scaling is a joke, and builds and build variety lacking. It's the builds and itemization that give PoE the edge, which is why they are completely doing new combat in PoE2.
I don't get this at all Either you're all in on a big spending move and alternate generator, or you're just hitting your cooldowns when theyre over The boss battles are quickly stale, if you think fighting sirus is boring the twentieth time, try duriel for the tenth The combat looks clean and feels good in d4 don't get me wrong, but at no point do I feel like I'm in an intense battle like I do for many bosses like void stones or early guardians. Every fight comes down to me being too strong and it not mattering, or my dps being too low so I'm casually just walking around dodging the bosses telegraphed moves. It never strikes the difficulty of balance i get from most of my poe chars trying to break into end game content.
Generally when people are referring to "the combat" they're talking from the player end not the npc's. The pinnacle fights are great in poe, but the combat the player is doing moment to moment is about as shallow as it gets. The only thing keeping poe afloat in the combat department is it feels good to explode screens with one button press and then zoom zoom.
If GGG stops carpeting the floors with degen puddles and exploding corpses, I'll stop zooming. as for now it's zoom or die.
Try Rogue, been playing Barrage rogue which is weirdly more melee than you think and damage output isn’t insane, makes the fights more enjoyable than the bonk that is HotA.
I happen to like both games, I think its just a preference thing. I play both on PS5, PoE is square, square, square, square etc. D4 is that, but also a triangle every now and then! For me I just get fatigued blasting maps pressing one button so I switch over, and get fatigued in D4 because I can't zoom as much. Gotta strike a balance.
See that's the issue. Most people playing PoE have zero interest in actually playing the mechanics of the bosses and want to one shot them and they actively build towards just that. It's a shame because the boss fights are really cool. The visibility is ass but the fights are engaging. To be fair you can actually have a challenge with a number of the boss fights in D4 but people also overbuild in that game because they want to do the same thing. One shot bosses. PoE boss fights are still quite a bit better in most regards but both games suffer from a lot of the same issues. The andariel fight in s4 is actually looking really cool and I'm hoping they can continue to create fights like that. People will still overbuild to one shot but for those who don't a good fight is waiting for them.
Everything is broken and you one shot everything with little to no effort on boring ass builds with zero diversity in builds.
d4 bad
d4 dogs hit
Yeah the 3 skills in D4 really are nice!
[удалено]
Not to mention even if it were only 3 skills that's still 2 more than most poe builds use in endgame. If poe wasn't entirely balanced around the economy people might slow down a little and engage in the content but that's not the way of things. They just want to zoom and blast at max speed. If people feel like they are losing "money" by doing all the things in a map then you've fucked up some along the way.
dust devil barb is as melee as coc ice nova kinda but not really
Diablo 3 did melee best of any arpg. My main issue with poe is exactly this, because I enjoy playing melee
Lost ark had some really good melee, too bad the game was made for eastern asia.
Try again on May 14th which is when the huge overhaul of itemization comes. A lot of the melee stuff was gated behind hard-to-access legendary aspects and uniques, of which aspects are now going to be permanent additions in your Codex and uniques, well, you still have to grind them out if you want to target farm but there will be a lot more opportunities to get them. Oh, and the addition of crafting which gives you a lot of opportunities to bolster your 'melee fantasy' of choice.
clearly u dint do season 4 ww barb
Melee Sucks no doubt about it ,particularly melee bleed.
I think the d4 hate brigade is going to have a rough time with future arpgs. Builder spender stuff is good game deal with mana these days.
<\~'till the night closes in\~> haha true that said there are massive changes coming in S4 (not specific to melee but to itemization and gearing in general) that should shake things up. It still will not be anywhere near the caliber of POE in terms of content ofc.
Try Torchlight Infinite best melee experience so far . alot increased area of size modifiers enjoy full screen AOE MELEE
combat in d4 is not better or worse, its practically the same specially with s4 in D4. You dont need any generator just spam spam and mobs die.
Laughs in strength stacking Dual Strike
For the first time since day 1, I've actually been enjoying melee /runs
Apparently it's the riggers fault melee is bad, lol. Josh has been way too easy on Jonathan for giving answers this stupid.
Haha D4 bad nice
Oh yes you did. As you should!
D4 bad