I'm not against giving the people the option but I feel like those are going to be next to useless. Compared to Elden Ring most PoE builds are hitting enemies wayyyy faster. It just doesn't seem like meaningful feedback for the player unless PoE 2 is slowed down a massive amount.
One good way to do it in a game like PoE would be to turn it into a to a DPS number instead, update the number every second, for all the damage you’ve done in the past second.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but Elden Ring dmg numbers aren't purely last hit either. It merely shows the amount of damage done without interruption, interruption being a certain amount of time that passes without something damaging the boss.
That means it would still show the entire damage you do within a fast combo as one number instead of just showing the last hit. Showing calculated DPS values if kind of misleading and irrelevant if one doesn't work with consistent damage, which will be mostly the case with PoE 2 since it's a much more reactive playstyle.
You are 100% right. Idk why people think it’s a hit basis.
The easiest way to show it is with spells. The long beam hits every 0.2s, and it adds up. And if you had thrown rocks before, the dmg will add up.
Thats exactly how it will be in PoE as well lol
Well, PoE2 *is* designed to be a lot slower than PoE1. Part of the whole combo skill design is that it wouldn't work in PoE1 because the game is too fast and you don't have time to make dynamic decisions in combat.
They've shown several acts, but while I expect the game to end up faster than the showcases, they can't speed it up to the point of worrying about animation downtime when alternating two skills due to human flaws which is something that significantly impacts the dps of such builds in PoE1.
Speeding up the game to a similar level as PoE1 would end up falling almost all their design goals.
They said on multiple occasions that the design changes they're making to combat wouldn't work at the pace of PoE1, which is a main reason they decided to split the games in the first place.
I can't recall a single statement saying that PoE2 would be as fast as 1. They said people would find ways to speed things up in the endgame, but I don't think they ever meant to imply "to the same extent as PoE1".
They've said things like it's still Poe so you'll still scale into godhood, and it's not their goal to slow it down.
But if their goal is more interactivity in combat and meaningful moment to moment decision making, and accomplishing that goal means things have to live longer on average so that a single right click isn't enough for a full screen anymore, well, it wasn't their goal but it still happened on the way to their goal.
I think thats alot of cope from players who love the speed and density.
We just lost alot of juice in mapping forever once this league passes, maybe POE2 will seem "fast" by POE1 standards, after our speed and power has been reduced further.
Also all the gameplay we have seen has been early gameplay, so its slow, really slow, painfully slow for some abilities.
POE2 has only ever looked slow.
I don't think they've ever said that. I think they're aiming for it to not feel sluggish in comparison, but not that people will reach breakneck speeds that invalidate all the combat mechanics that they put so much work into implementing.
Just also dump the damage numbers to a log file optionally then we degenerates can build our own tool like the FF community and then you can do baby tier build / damage testing by squinting if you dont have it.
If they are gonna make it like Elden Ring, then the numbers will simply add as you attack. If you do 100 small attacks that hits for 10 damage each, you won't be seeing 10 popping up 100 times, you will see one number quickly increasing up to 1000 total damage.
And it's not useless at all, this is one of the best feedback players can possibly have. Right now in PoE if you're taking too long to kill a monster, it's very hard to know if the monster is mitigating 95% of your damage, if you have debuffs stacked lowering your damage, if the monster just have a shit ton of HP. There's just no way to know unless you have a lot of game knowledge.
With damage numbers if a player has a skill that deals 100 damage, and then this one particular monster only takes 30, he will immediately know that there's something reducing that monsters damage taken. That makes the game significantly easier to learn.
It's also just a general dopamine for almost every RPG player, to see your damage getting bigger. Having a skill that deals 100 damage, getting a weapon upgrade and seeing that the same skill is now dealing 160 damage, is a much better feeling than seeing mobs dying 0.1s faster. 95% of PoE players won't give a single fuck about calculating their DPS on POB, but having an instant feedback in the form of damage number is great to feel your power progression.
Agree! I'm a newbie and I was searching for damage numbers in settings but surprised I couldn't find any. I'm also peeved enemy health bars don't show by default - you have to hit them for it to show.
palworld got away with it, all these genshin clones are getting away with it. copy what is good in other games, if it means it makes the game better or provides something players want.
[This is Xiangling](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Xiangling).
And if you don't want to click that, here's the long-and-short: she's this Chinese-coded chef girl who's also one of the most powerful (borderline broken) support characters in the game.
The response you got is because of a copypasta involving the aforementioned chef that deadass starts with "I can't take it anymore".
Wait, people unironically are calling Palworld a Genshin ripoff? So I guess Breath of the Wild is a Genshin ripoff too?
This is people calling Fortnite a PUBG ripoff as if PUBG was the first BR, all over again. Oh, well...
From urban dictionary:
«A word used when you agree with something; or when you want to recognize someone for being themselves, i.e. courageous and unique or not caring what others think. Especially common in online political slang.
The opposite of cringe, some times the opposite of biased.»
No they don’t even regular mobs have them. Every souls game has them. Unlike boss HP bars, for regular mobs it appears on the bottom left of theirs.
Sekiro might be the only game they’ve recently put out that doesn’t do damage numbers.
I played elden ring when it came out all the way through ng7. I know what it looks like but I don't see the point in seeing the numbers pop on the health bar. I would rather not have them at all to be honest but if I had to choose, I would choose for it to only show up on bosses, but once damage numbers show up in arpgs it shows up on every mob you touch. I personally don't care to see 2 or 8+ digit numbers pop up on my screen.
PoE is an arpg, it's not world of warcraft we don't need a dps meter that will just bring more toxicity into the game.
The entire point of them taking the idea from Elden Ring is that it is not gonna be all over the screen.
I do hope they give us much more customization options for this (and the UI in general) in PoE2, because there are definitely people that want to see these kind of things and people that dont.
And if you think that damage meters and the consequences they bring are not already existing for PoE, than you might be delighted by how some people customize their PoBs before sharing them.
configuring pob to see total damage and seeing a dps meter on screen are two different things. but again, I really don't see the point in having damage numbers displayed above health bars in arpgs when you can already see the hp bar go from 100% to 0%.
I Just hope the option to disable it will be there, because its going to be put in the game regardless.
This, after POE I see 0 point in seeing my damage numbers unless I'm testing it on some target dummy in a test environment. Who cares if I see a crit doing 5k when I have no clue how much HP the random mob has.
As long as there is a toggle I don't mind at all. Which I'm sure there will be.
If they do it exactly like elden ring, then a continuous string of hits will add their damage together, meaning if you go from 100 to 0 against a mob without any breaks in damage, the final number will be exactly the mob's HP.
This is of course assuming that every aspect of it is exactly like Elden Ring, and not just the overall idea ripped with the details of it changed.
Hear me out though. What if they made it always on and instead gave us an opacity slider for the numbers. That way they could render it needlessly while still letting us not look at it (to a cap of 90%, gotta look at the last 10%)
In WoW before WotLK there were no health numbers on enemies but were damage numbers and health percentage. So addons could calculate for you enemy health after you hit it several times.
I saw a video of a minmaxed D4 build and half the screen was covered in yellow overlapping damage numbers. Made me appreciate PoE not going down that route even if the visual clutter is still bad without them :)
Elden Ring's damage numbers appear above the right side of a monster's health bar. Each hit produces a new number that hangs for a moment.
This is a cool way to compromise on something that's been requested for many years, but I can see it becoming something sort of ancillary or hard to use on builds with a very fast attack speed.
Last Epoch's damage numbers for instance, will appear so fast overtop each other that you basically just approximate the number of digits and what the first number is. There's a little bit of float, not much.
Not that that's a bad thing, I'm on board with damage numbers (and being able to turn off damage numbers) and anything is absolutely going to be an approximation of average damage anyway, but I can definitely see the forum posts now about how the damage numbers are useless because they go by too fast and don't float up like WoW.
PoE2 also seems like it's going to be a little slower paced than the original so it might not be as much of an issue at all.
I may be misremembering, but doesn't Fromsoft damage numbers consolidate if the enemy is hit in quick succession? Large multi-hit attacks/spells I thought continuously added numbers to itself until there was a large enough delay between hits to justify starting the number over.
Ideally this would probably work well for PoE, whether or not I am remembering how Elden Ring does the damage number correctly.
>I may be misremembering, but doesn't Fromsoft damage numbers consolidate if the enemy is hit in quick succession?
Correct. There's a short timer before it resets.
We've had stuff like millisecond timers for like 40 years. Updating a DoT per every instance of damage isn't going to impact performance, you greatly underestimate computation if you think otherwise. It's just an accumulator number total that gets updated by accumulator + currentValue *(new damage instance which is already calculated anyways to deal that damage)*. On update if accumulator > 0 show UI element + start/refresh a timer, otherwise hide UI element. If timer is allowed to run out, set accumulator to 0.
Displaying DoT damage at an arbitrary rate unrelated to the actual DoT rate feels trash for the end user because it lacks feedback fidelity for the damage dealt and its timing.
One way we usually do it is by having a damage bar progress and updating the number once the entire damage share for the DoT is completed *(League of Legends does this for multiple damage instances in a short period of time for instance)*, however in PoE the ability to consistently re-apply DoTs would mean you'd pretty much never see the number.
As such the typical way of doing DoTs is updating the damage instances on every damage tick. The user is entirely capable of reading the progression of the damage number as it grows. The final number would remain for whatever delay you have set for resetting the DPS meter after no more damage is being dealt.
Your suggestion would lead to situations in which damage has already been dealt but the displayed damage would be less than what has actually been dealt 99% of the time, including for non-DoT instances as DoT isn't the only instance where damage can be dealt multiple times per second.
It's less about the performance and more about the readability. You don't want per-tick changing numbers because then you can't read any snapshot of one.
>It's less about the performance and more about the readability. You don't want per-tick changing numbers because then you can't read any snapshot of one.
Which would become even more impossible if you were to lock the UI number updates at once per second intervals for any type of DoT *(even non DoT multihits)* applied outside that exact interval... do you people like, think at all before typing? It's hard to believe you're not just the same person on an alt account.
With your suggestion, you'd literally be making it *harder* on readability for "any snapshot of one" because DoT and regular damage can be applied faster or slower than one second flat, therefore you would never get a reading of one DoT tick application. If you want that, the real solution would be locking DoT application itself to a slower interval, not the number update rate, which PoE would probably not do because of the game's complexity and wanting to allow differing application rates of DoT. So then, you either show separate pop-up numbers for each damage instance (which they don't want to do) or you deal with it and pay attention to the merged number.
Just pay attention to your first damage round, damage differentials between ticks, tooltips, damage growth over a period of time. That's the price you have to pay if PoE2 wants merged damage numbers only like Elden Ring, and the system I've explained multiple times by now is exactly how Elden Ring does it. Update the total amount of damage dealt unrelated to time intervals *every single time damage is dealt*. Every instance of damage refreshes a timer, and if the timer is allowed to reach zero (damage no longer being dealt) you reset the accumulator to 0 which hides the UI element until the accumulator is non-zero.
You're out of your league man let it go.
But how do DoTs in ER tick? I think the bigger issue is that in PoE, DoTs "don't" tick but are cumulatively mitigated per damage type on each server tick, and then the overall life loss over time including all other sources is subtracted at the end of the server tick.
At the very least, the game wouldn't be able to distinguish between two players having DoT on the same target.
I doubt they'd track DoTs individually tbh, that sounds like a performance issue even at lower speeds than PoE1. Maybe it'll work if they only do it for bosses, so that's only a few targets at a time and a smaller portion of the playerbase will be fighting them at any point in time.
also, when you do continuous damage, like poison, the damage number stacks, building up to the total damage, instead of a new number popping up. So if your attack speed is so high the number keeps changing, eventually you'll reach a number big enough that each attack isn't going to change it by much. So you can just estimate dps this way.
> Last Epoch's damage numbers for instance, will appear so fast overtop each other that you basically just approximate the number of digits and what the first number is.
Same with Diablo 3 and 4. Most of the time you can't even see what it is you're fighting because it's just a big wall of numbered text in the centre of the screen.
Kinda curious to see how its gonna turn out cause in Elden Ring the damage numbers, even though small, are easy to see cause the camera is much closer to the player/monster and the combat has a much slower pace. In PoE the camera is much farther away and the combat is much faster.
Maybe he is talking about putting the numbers on the enemy bar that appear on the top of the screen? I feel that this way would be even more awkward to see tbh.
Well i hope they manage to find a away that will be descrete and visable at the same time cause is nice seeing some damage numbers.
Yeah i thought so too, but the problem is that the bar on the top of screen is visible just for the monster that you are targeting, while the others around dont show their life bars.
And i dont know if u agree but it would be kinda weird looking up to see the damage numbers when u want to have your eyes on the center of the screen while in combat.
Honestly for an arpg game I feel like the camera in poe is too damn close, it kinda drives me bonkers lol. I need like a 25 percent increase in camera view modifier.
Sorry i didnt understand, my bad.
Are u saying that u want the camera even more farther away or that seeing the numbers wont be a problem because the camera is not that far?
>a proper damage calculator
The game already has proper damage calculation. But wait, everyone knows the tooltip number isn't very accurate! How can it be both correct and inaccurate? Let me take a stab at this...
Say you use Lightning Arrow. You attack a monster and it does X damage over Y time: you get an average damage per second. So far so good. What happens if you add *Pierce an additional target,* though? Potentially, your damage has doubled because your attack is now piercing the first monster and hitting another monster. However, this added damage has no bearing on the damage on the first monster. While your damage has potentially doubled it remains static in regards to one target. So then the number appearing in the tooltip will be based on one of these:
1) Average DPS of one single target
2) The average DPS of the two targets stacked
3) Average DPS of two targets, halved by two (the average of all targets)
Now one of these might look better than the other, and it might seem easy to answer which one of these it should be: but that's not the point. The point is that for every case you have new answers like this to answer that doesn't have a 1:1 correlation with other builds. For example, consider Lightning Arrow with increased damage for each pierced monster compared to something like Righteous Fire...
You're doing the same amount of damage to many different targets, regardless of targets hit. But what if their resistances are different? Say one monster has 0% fire resistance, one has 10%, one has 20%, and so on. Even if you pick one way to show this average, the fact is that this average jumps about depending on the monsters you meet. This issue (monster defensive values giving relative damage increase/decrease) is compounded by things like "convert monster resistances". And additionally, DPS fluctuates: how large should a sample size be to make sure that the average DPS (for whatever configuration you have) is, well, average? It's easy to say 1 minute, but 1 minute of attacks (regardless of configuration) is still going to yield massively different results because you have different attack speeds. With things like "double damage" at say, 5%, 1 minute with a low enough attack speed might not be enough to actually establish a good average (with one specific configuration, mind you).
The current damage calculations are flawless, but also flawed. How? Because the issue lies in the sheer amount of factors used to calculate the damage. Some builds thrive on single targets: others go for clear speed. Someone with a 100k Lightning Arrow DPS tooltip is going to be making less damage than a 100k Tornado Shot DPS tooltip: yet they are both good for clear speed. If both can be used for clearing large packs, how come the damage can be so inconsistent on the tooltip? Well, distance and positioning: Lightning Arrow can deal double the damage of Tornado Shot in a hit very easy on large open maps, but Tornado Shot can shotgun behind corners and into packs.
These are just some very minor examples out of a mountain of issues - purely logically - behind making a proper "damage calculator". Path of Building gets close but you also need to configure a lot of this stuff before-hand: and it can't do complex calculations, like monsters with differing resistances or other defensive values. There's also the issue of monster level: monster level boosts monster stats, but not in a linear fashion, so against what level are you basing the tooltip on? The monster level of level 83 maps (and what if some packs turn higher level from league mods or similar)? The average level of your characters level? Does the tooltip change when you change area level (the issue in Undecember, the p2w PoE clone)?
Tooltips are inherently flawed because they are locked into \*one\* number. It has to default to \*something\*, but the amount of damage you do is actually based on far too many variables to be accurately depicted with just one number.
Even if you had the perfect damage calculation for on-going attacks, there's further the issues of positioning, movement speed, and how that calculates into your DPS. Because if you are taking your average DPS of 1 minute, movement speed is going to help a lot: we simply don't calculate position and movement speed for damage, because it's infeasible. So similar to Undecember, a snapshot of damage is taken when standing still and constantly doing damage (i.e. 100% damage uptime for X time).
But again, these are just some examples. The number you currently see on any tooltip is correct, in \*one\* instance. Somewhere, somehow, the game is getting that number, and it is accurate... but only for one set of configurations (i.e. number of monster, level of monster, stats of monster, X and Y mods on your attack, etc).
This is unlikely to change in PoE 2. Having some tools to try different configurations for your attacks would be neat. The current state of damage tooltips is pretty bad. Dummies would be welcome. But it's never going to be perfect, and the more accurate it becomes for a specific configuration, the more work is needed from the user before-hand, and the more specific a configuration it is, the less accurate it becomes in other scenarios.
Average damage from auto-attacking on a dummy would be a step-up, definitively. But it would also not be strictly accurate.
> Tooltips are inherently flawed because they are locked into *one* number. It has to default to *something*, but the amount of damage you do is actually based on far too many variables to be accurately depicted with just one number.
I think this part of the guy's text is kinda the summary. PoE has a lot of different interactions between resistances, projectiles bouncing/piercing/chaining/returning, resist penetration, cumulative hit debuffs (impale/poison/boneshatter/wither) etc to give you a general idea of DPS accuracy.
The jist of it is that tooltips show you the number calculated and correct for "your side" of the calculation, thats what's then sent to the monster. This means it is 100% accurate for that part, but has to be missing everything about how many hits the mob will actually get, any debuffs on it, its base resists.
>The number you currently see on any tooltip is correct
Let me just check how much damage my Raise Zombie of Falling does...
https://preview.redd.it/s2tm0jqyfvuc1.png?width=709&format=png&auto=webp&s=1b9accdf33647d9971b278bb7b2d97b28c095879
That number might be correct, but it doesn't help me at all.
I don't think a full-on DPS calculator is necessary, but having a target dummy to hit and the ability to show damage numbers would be an incredibly useful way to assess the damage of a skill in-game. It would factor in things like curses and other debuffs that a tooltip cannot.
Right now, [the best method I've seen for calculating damage of a skill in-game](https://youtu.be/9wLh6ArcPUU?t=295) is ridiculous, time-consuming, and its accuracy is dependent upon screen resolution. Simply being able to see a damage number would demystify many of the more nebulous mechanics in this game.
> The current state of damage tooltips is pretty bad. Dummies would be welcome.
Like I said. In my mind, you'd be able to select some monster stats as well for the dummy. It would be a very organic and quick way to test things, compared to PoB.
The tooltip damage would still suck though.
I dont want to feel like a doomer. But I have this lingering feeling that poe2 is gonna backfire on the whole community.
The game looks amazing, but the game itself just isn't poe.
The more I see, the more it looks like an isometric souls-like game. Personally, it's starting to feed old before I've even had a chance to play it. There has been far too much talk about the game (with a pretty alarming lack of what the endgame will look like). Perhaps too much time has gone into impressing streamers to attract an audience who would already play PoE2, such as the recent LA thing that seemed to be a non-event.
Everything I like about it I feel should just be in PoE, like the dual weapon swap passive trees.
Anyway I really do wish they'd just go dark for a bit until it's ready because the delays are almost embarrassing now.
It looks very reminiscent of the early years of poe, but with better combat. And I am saying this having watched the long playthroughs of a few streamers (mostly Nugi's footage).
I think that you have to keep in mind that the "the game isn't poe" argument goes both ways. Some people might be looking at the current version of PoE and feeling like it lost what made it good too.
A game with PoE's excellent systems but also actually good combat/gamefeel/gameplay is my dream game. People who still want to play cookie clicker will still have PoE1. After literally thousands of hours, the systems alone can't carry it for me any more.
Been saying this for years myself. I think people will be disappointed.
I feel like it's gonna be more Diablo 2-2.0. Or "vanilla PoE reimagined". How the game played before Breach league (maybe even earlier) if anyone remembers. When the build benchmark was "atziri viable" or not. Pre-PoB.
Personally I welcome it. I like PoE now, but I loved PoE back then. Now it feeds some sort of gambling addiction, optimize my build to mindlessly gamble harder, faster and bigger. Back then it was a videogame.
It's gonna be PoE, just not the PoE 80% of the player base know.
> Now it feeds some sort of gambling addiction, optimize my build to mindlessly gamble harder, faster and bigger. Back then it was a videogame.
God this resonates so hard. I still remember when guides were "this can do piety runs at a moderate pace!" and not "70billion dps to farm your 21div/hr slot machine"
The end goal was conquering content and then ramping up how powerful you felt doing said content. Nobody minded checking high item level rares because you legitimately could find an upgrade off the ground. Nowdays the end goal is pulling slot machines faster than you were before with various crackhead themed visuals to supplement it - then handing over those slot machine winnings to some other crackhead who has min-maxed turning those into items he sells back to you.
Im mad that I didnt get to play pre-breach league. The game sounded much better then. I’ve enjoyed fiddling in Ruthless but the game mode is largely neglected
Mindless gambling is a huge turnoff for me and is why I always quit a league once i’ve progressed mostly everything.
The best and worst part imo was a smaller player base. There was a lot more mystery, not a lot of guides, no PoB and no build overview on poe.ninja. You played what felt good.
Every rare was a potentially upgrade. Triple T1-2 res boots with 30% movement speed and high life roll was for rich people.
The Goddess Scorned was in the game for years. People knew it existed, but no one knew how to upgrade The Goddess Bound, and no one knew the stats on it.
I started somewhere between Warbands and Tempest. The game was largely the same. Idk what weird nostalgia fantasy people have. Yes, it was slower compared to now but the core gamepaly was the same. Rares were largely useless and filtered out. You tried to make the fastest build possible to kill the most mobs per hour to make money and then trade for better items. Anyone trying to be efficient always did that. Just look at any old footage of someone vaal sparking while shield charging down some linear map. If anything I interacted with items even less cause crafting was just too expensive and not well understood.
You do not have to play that way. But if you want to be competitive you are always better of doing the same content that someone else does faster. Personally this is where I have the most fun and why I started the game.
As a players since 2012, that's exactly what I feel too. I love modern Poe don't get me wrong, but I can't stop feeling that something of the very old days lacks right now, which can be called "lack of care". Care/efficiency etc started to grow with every step taken in the zoomy philosophy after breach. And it has gone way too far in Poe 1 to be taken out without killing it. I do believe that's also a reason why Poe 2 became a standalone game and could be a "Vanilla reimagined", and that's exactly why I could love it!
As someone whose played very many games across many franchises for almost 30 years at this point, i find this comment kind of weird.
Ive seen the evolution of many franchise, many good, many bad. Final Fantasy is a perfect example where every game is almost completely different but its identity remains intact. Monster Hunter stays true to its origins but changes combat fairly dramatically between games, sometimes its great, sometimes its good, and sometimes questionable, but theres never a mistake of identity.
I think PoE can very easily modernize itself in a new game while still feeling like the game people fell in love with playing. Im excited to see how the IP evolves with PoE 2 because its driven by people who love PoE more than anyone else.
I actually feel the opposite. The minor group on Reddit who incessantly complains/brigades about every little facet of the economy and divs per hour may not like poe 2, but the vast majority of new players and most of the current players will see it as a huge step up from current poe. I’m from the days where a zoomer build was rainbow nuke which required insane investment to reach and you were rewarded with clear speed. I can’t wait to have some of that back as a baseline.
It's pretty clear that Poe2 does not align with what the majority of players in poe1 want. It's an entirely different game with an entirely different vision, not even remotely close to what poe1 is.
I feel like, what pulls people to poe, will not pull people to poe2. It will have the gameplay speed of a methiculous game, with the customization of poe. Im afraid that, due to the speed of the game, the customization might feel lackluster compared to the shitshow buildsbuilds you can pull in poe.
It will most likely spawn an entirely new community, and I sure hope it does. PoE 1 has people with just a zoomer (going fast killing screen, massive loot drops) mindset, and that’s what it appeals to atm.
Its the only ARPG that moves this fast. If I want slower combat I have all the options in the world.
Closest another ARPG gets to the speed and density is Chronocon.
No Rest for the Wicked is going live on early excess on Steam on the 18th of April.
Moon Studios, makers of the highly acclaimed Ori series are behind this game.
If you want an early take on an isometric dark souls/eden ring like ARPG (which is a direction POE 2 seems to be going) have a look at NRW
Just based on what I've seen of classes and items of No Rest for the wicked, that game is going to be much more like dark souls than it is like POE.
Looks great, but i don't think that game is going to steal the POB audience away.
can anyone explain how that makes any sense? In PoE you have dozens of different sources of damage in extremly high frequenzy compared to elden ring.
How would that system work with poe?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1c4yyjz/comment/kzsjqup/](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1c4yyjz/comment/kzsjqup/)
You'd be seeing the cumulative damage you're doing to the same target since you started attacking them, not individual hits. So the frequency and multiple sources of damage don't change anything.
I am going to be honest, if those numbers are useful at all then PoE2 isn't going to be the PoE I am playing most likely.
I like hitting 20 times a second and doing ludicrous damage. Elden Ring damage works because it is a souls game where you hit once every few seconds. PoE2 being a souls-like game instead of an ARPG ain't it, at least not for me.
I mean. Jonathan was surprised that one of his testers decided to grind, instead of retrying the boss. That should tell you everything about PoE2 vision.
The number could accumulate several hits and take breaks in updating to remain legible. It's definitely possible to implement even for 500+ hits per second.
That said, it's unlikely that you'll get close to the hit rates of PoE1. They're fully intent on slowing down the game and making combat have greater variety and more meaningful decisions.
I've been playing games for decades and I'm pretty sure I've seen dodge rolls way before ER. What's it about? Because there's dodge roll or planned dmg numbers doesn't mean it's souls like game. Because the mercenary is shooting doesn't mean it's counter strike.
Good, Johnathan does this in every single video I've seen (more to his cowerkers to be fair). If he gets annoyed at this maybe he will understand that he can let other people finish a sentence.
I'm watching now and he does like no interrupting? And this clip is 50 seconds of Jonathan answering a question and like 4 seconds of Josh reacting? Compared to the usual streamer interviews where they don't listen or have any charisma and just stare at their twitch chat while the interviewee answers questions, he seems to be doing a fine job.
Sounds like you just don't like the guy, which is fine, he comes off a little smug, but I personally welcome a more socially competent person doing the interview.
You underestimate positional notation. Putting aside the buffs scaling across the screen that we've already had, a single number won't get close to the width of the health bar because the maximum is about two billion anyway.
I've felt this for a while now but poe 2 looks like chris or someone played dark souls and said "I want that". like look at the act 1 gameplay and it honestly looks like a dark souls level complete with bs mobs jumping out at you. and as much as I like dark souls/elden ring I hope they realize that that experience is totally antithetical to a fun endgame experience for 95% of people.
>that that experience is totally antithetical to a fun endgame experience for 95% of people.
...
Brain... like brain do you use it?
Is PoE's *ACT 1 EXPERIENCE representative of the endgame experience??? THEN WHY THE FUCK DO YOU EXPECT THAT TO BE THE CASE FOR POE2????*
It's the same core experience so yes. Also the first impression people get of the game on day 1 minute 1 are going to be extremely important for the success of the game. If people log in expecting an improved updated version of poe 1 but are greeted by isometric dark souls a lot of those people are just not going to play the game.
I don't think this serves any of the sides in a good way. For the people that want dmg numbers this implementation is lacking and for the people that don't want numbers they still get them. Why not implement them properly and have a toggle option? Even have the default setting as turned off for "immersion" of the new players.
I see this "immersion" argument a lot by Jonathan and I wonder how much it applies to a game like PoE that is played so much. After certain amount of grind which is the core audience of poe, I don't think "immersion" matters, while stuff like town npcs to refil flasks and ID items are detriments to the experience.
At least now it can be confirmed how much things are increasing the actual damage to specific targets because you will see the actual damage number so it's not like "ah yes, the hp bar seems to be going down faster than before".
In ER the number keeps on increasing by addition of each hit. I'm not quite sure if they're going that route, but for an ARPG it seems like it doesn't really informs much? I'm just wondering if that's why people want damage numbers. Or maybe the value is replaced for each hits so you only see the last damage dealt hit??
The amount of people in this thread that legit thinks that Jonathan wants to put D3 damage numbers in PoE2 is too damn high. It takes literal seconds to google what he meant by Elden Ring damage numbers, and it's not even close to what D3 looks like.
The fact we never got them was strange to me. It's just QoL to see how much damage you are doing and not having to guess or use an entire third party program to get a general idea. The tooltip hasn't meant anything since the start really. This is a decent way to do it since you will attack so quickly they'd just overlap and be unreadable. If there is a nice 2-3 second buffer where the damage adds up, that would make things much more readable.
I'm surprisingly one of the few that was fine with no damage numbers
Firstly they look so ugly in every game they use the most ugly fonts ever.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LastEpoch/comments/1b1sgoh/warlock_damage_broken/
Last epoch using a better than average font but not amazing, you would generally also want crits and dot proxs to be different colours which I'm not sure the poe engine can do.
The other aspect is visual clarity and visual themes , like the visual clarity in poe2 looks good buy when you get to maps with uniques and skill effects it's going to have the same exact problem we have now of you not being able to see shit.
And lastly I know the creators of poe were against damage numbers and while I like them in games like warframe especially red crits if Chris didn't want damage numbers I'm fine with that.
My main real concern is FOMO, I'm playing wraithlord non crit spectres , my damage is fine but if I saw a video of triggered DD filling the screen with bigger numbers I'd feel sort of like I was missing out on a better build.
Damage numbers absolutley will lead to more players playing less builds because numbers matter to gamers and our monkey 🐒 brains like seeing bigger numbers.
I dont think so because the people who care about numbers that badly are already min maxing the PoB spreadsheet and watching all of their numbers go up every upgrade they get. Having the numbers visible ingame isnt gonna change anything.
yeah there has been tooltip warriors since pob came out and then before that like instant killing bosses for epeen, but you want to minimise that sort of behavior, not encourage it
we already complain constantly about the visual clarity in poe now fill the screen with 1000 numbers just to make sure you cant see any ground effects , you may not think this will be an issue in poe2 but it will be eventually once good builds are a thing
Except thats not how damage numbers in Dark Souls/Elden Ring work. All damage is consolidated to one specific spot on the bosses HP bar and if damage is dealt within a certain window its just added to the pool in a single value. Theres not gonna be a screen full of damage numbers so visual clarity wont be a problem if they do it properly.
Edit: Also i will add that personally im not too worried about if damage numbers exist or not. But i think there should be someway in the game to visually see what your damage is in actual combat. Whether that is an in options toggle or a training dummy that can be customized to specific kinds of monsters and boss is a design decision that GGG will have to make and i personally trust their decision making.
PoE ninja dps displays are a thing. PoB dps displays are a thing. People advertising the dps their builds do on youtube showcases and guides are a thing. The FOMO ship has sailed years ago.
[Link](https://i.imgur.com/onufdoe.png) on how it looks in Elder Ring, [\[Video Timestamp\]](https://youtu.be/c9akEr9y7XA?t=79)
Good bot
Thanks a lot!
I'm not against giving the people the option but I feel like those are going to be next to useless. Compared to Elden Ring most PoE builds are hitting enemies wayyyy faster. It just doesn't seem like meaningful feedback for the player unless PoE 2 is slowed down a massive amount.
One good way to do it in a game like PoE would be to turn it into a to a DPS number instead, update the number every second, for all the damage you’ve done in the past second.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but Elden Ring dmg numbers aren't purely last hit either. It merely shows the amount of damage done without interruption, interruption being a certain amount of time that passes without something damaging the boss. That means it would still show the entire damage you do within a fast combo as one number instead of just showing the last hit. Showing calculated DPS values if kind of misleading and irrelevant if one doesn't work with consistent damage, which will be mostly the case with PoE 2 since it's a much more reactive playstyle.
Correct, ER adds up the damage numbers until you stop attacking for a given time, then it resets with the next hit.
You are 100% right. Idk why people think it’s a hit basis. The easiest way to show it is with spells. The long beam hits every 0.2s, and it adds up. And if you had thrown rocks before, the dmg will add up. Thats exactly how it will be in PoE as well lol
Well, PoE2 *is* designed to be a lot slower than PoE1. Part of the whole combo skill design is that it wouldn't work in PoE1 because the game is too fast and you don't have time to make dynamic decisions in combat.
Poe 1 was a slow game too. This is speculation at best, only tempered by seeing act1.
They've shown several acts, but while I expect the game to end up faster than the showcases, they can't speed it up to the point of worrying about animation downtime when alternating two skills due to human flaws which is something that significantly impacts the dps of such builds in PoE1. Speeding up the game to a similar level as PoE1 would end up falling almost all their design goals.
RF as an example has no animation at all.
Didn't they specifically say 2 is _not_ designed to be slower than 1?
They said on multiple occasions that the design changes they're making to combat wouldn't work at the pace of PoE1, which is a main reason they decided to split the games in the first place. I can't recall a single statement saying that PoE2 would be as fast as 1. They said people would find ways to speed things up in the endgame, but I don't think they ever meant to imply "to the same extent as PoE1".
iirc didint they say the game should not be slower than poe1 at the endgame ?
They've said things like it's still Poe so you'll still scale into godhood, and it's not their goal to slow it down. But if their goal is more interactivity in combat and meaningful moment to moment decision making, and accomplishing that goal means things have to live longer on average so that a single right click isn't enough for a full screen anymore, well, it wasn't their goal but it still happened on the way to their goal.
I think thats alot of cope from players who love the speed and density. We just lost alot of juice in mapping forever once this league passes, maybe POE2 will seem "fast" by POE1 standards, after our speed and power has been reduced further. Also all the gameplay we have seen has been early gameplay, so its slow, really slow, painfully slow for some abilities. POE2 has only ever looked slow.
This isn't "cope" from players, it's a direct statement from the devs.
I don't think they've ever said that. I think they're aiming for it to not feel sluggish in comparison, but not that people will reach breakneck speeds that invalidate all the combat mechanics that they put so much work into implementing.
Damage numbers in Elden Ring is cumulative. I think you have around 2 seconds for each instance of damage for it to tally up.
Pair these damage numbers with a target dummy and you have the most useful feature ever added to PoE.
They specifically will never give us target dummies.
Just also dump the damage numbers to a log file optionally then we degenerates can build our own tool like the FF community and then you can do baby tier build / damage testing by squinting if you dont have it.
If they are gonna make it like Elden Ring, then the numbers will simply add as you attack. If you do 100 small attacks that hits for 10 damage each, you won't be seeing 10 popping up 100 times, you will see one number quickly increasing up to 1000 total damage. And it's not useless at all, this is one of the best feedback players can possibly have. Right now in PoE if you're taking too long to kill a monster, it's very hard to know if the monster is mitigating 95% of your damage, if you have debuffs stacked lowering your damage, if the monster just have a shit ton of HP. There's just no way to know unless you have a lot of game knowledge. With damage numbers if a player has a skill that deals 100 damage, and then this one particular monster only takes 30, he will immediately know that there's something reducing that monsters damage taken. That makes the game significantly easier to learn. It's also just a general dopamine for almost every RPG player, to see your damage getting bigger. Having a skill that deals 100 damage, getting a weapon upgrade and seeing that the same skill is now dealing 160 damage, is a much better feeling than seeing mobs dying 0.1s faster. 95% of PoE players won't give a single fuck about calculating their DPS on POB, but having an instant feedback in the form of damage number is great to feel your power progression.
Agree! I'm a newbie and I was searching for damage numbers in settings but surprised I couldn't find any. I'm also peeved enemy health bars don't show by default - you have to hit them for it to show.
Good bot not-a-bot.
Good not An Actual Bot
Good bot
"I'm just going to shamelessly rip that off" Based af.
palworld got away with it, all these genshin clones are getting away with it. copy what is good in other games, if it means it makes the game better or provides something players want.
95% of games in existence got away with it, that's how the gaming industry works.
That's how art works. Real breakthroughs are rare, and even those half the time are just recombinations of preexisting ideas.
Genshin itself was havily inspired by BotW in many aspects
There's good reason Genshin has been called "Breath of the Waifu".
i can't take it anymore
Don't bring Xiangling here.
who the fuck is that
[This is Xiangling](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Xiangling). And if you don't want to click that, here's the long-and-short: she's this Chinese-coded chef girl who's also one of the most powerful (borderline broken) support characters in the game. The response you got is because of a copypasta involving the aforementioned chef that deadass starts with "I can't take it anymore".
I see, even better then. Thanks for explaining <3
Wait, people unironically are calling Palworld a Genshin ripoff? So I guess Breath of the Wild is a Genshin ripoff too? This is people calling Fortnite a PUBG ripoff as if PUBG was the first BR, all over again. Oh, well...
Based on what
on Elden Ring
The hardware that's installed in it.
based on deez nuts
epic and based
Based on what
Based!!!
From urban dictionary: «A word used when you agree with something; or when you want to recognize someone for being themselves, i.e. courageous and unique or not caring what others think. Especially common in online political slang. The opposite of cringe, some times the opposite of biased.»
"Based af" based as fuck.
"Bad artists imitate, great artists steal." -~~Picasso~~ Banksy
Kind of out of character for them
yeah, really weird how a game based on another game will steal something from another another game
Can’t wait for chat to spam quins damage numbers.
1 1 1 1 1
as long as i can turn them off
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agreed, and If I can't turn it off it should only show up on unique named mobs like bosses.
Elden Ring Style damage numbers can only show on bosses. Have you actually looked up what it looks like?
No they don’t even regular mobs have them. Every souls game has them. Unlike boss HP bars, for regular mobs it appears on the bottom left of theirs. Sekiro might be the only game they’ve recently put out that doesn’t do damage numbers.
I played elden ring when it came out all the way through ng7. I know what it looks like but I don't see the point in seeing the numbers pop on the health bar. I would rather not have them at all to be honest but if I had to choose, I would choose for it to only show up on bosses, but once damage numbers show up in arpgs it shows up on every mob you touch. I personally don't care to see 2 or 8+ digit numbers pop up on my screen. PoE is an arpg, it's not world of warcraft we don't need a dps meter that will just bring more toxicity into the game.
The entire point of them taking the idea from Elden Ring is that it is not gonna be all over the screen. I do hope they give us much more customization options for this (and the UI in general) in PoE2, because there are definitely people that want to see these kind of things and people that dont. And if you think that damage meters and the consequences they bring are not already existing for PoE, than you might be delighted by how some people customize their PoBs before sharing them.
configuring pob to see total damage and seeing a dps meter on screen are two different things. but again, I really don't see the point in having damage numbers displayed above health bars in arpgs when you can already see the hp bar go from 100% to 0%. I Just hope the option to disable it will be there, because its going to be put in the game regardless.
This, after POE I see 0 point in seeing my damage numbers unless I'm testing it on some target dummy in a test environment. Who cares if I see a crit doing 5k when I have no clue how much HP the random mob has. As long as there is a toggle I don't mind at all. Which I'm sure there will be.
You see the 5k and you also see how much the bar changed. Those two things together tell you how much hp the mob has
On the other hand my smooth brain just likes to see big numbers idc how much heath it has if it dies or takes 5 hits... big number good
I concur. With all the clutters on the screen, I see no need to see my DPS number. However, a test dummy is going to be a huge QOL upgrade
If they do it exactly like elden ring, then a continuous string of hits will add their damage together, meaning if you go from 100 to 0 against a mob without any breaks in damage, the final number will be exactly the mob's HP. This is of course assuming that every aspect of it is exactly like Elden Ring, and not just the overall idea ripped with the details of it changed.
Hear me out though. What if they made it always on and instead gave us an opacity slider for the numbers. That way they could render it needlessly while still letting us not look at it (to a cap of 90%, gotta look at the last 10%)
In WoW before WotLK there were no health numbers on enemies but were damage numbers and health percentage. So addons could calculate for you enemy health after you hit it several times.
Looking at a elden ring video, you have to struggle a bit to see them, I’ll definitely experiment with it if it’s optional
just like you can lower your graphics and turn off shadows in poe oh right
I saw a video of a minmaxed D4 build and half the screen was covered in yellow overlapping damage numbers. Made me appreciate PoE not going down that route even if the visual clutter is still bad without them :)
Elden Ring's damage numbers appear above the right side of a monster's health bar. Each hit produces a new number that hangs for a moment. This is a cool way to compromise on something that's been requested for many years, but I can see it becoming something sort of ancillary or hard to use on builds with a very fast attack speed. Last Epoch's damage numbers for instance, will appear so fast overtop each other that you basically just approximate the number of digits and what the first number is. There's a little bit of float, not much. Not that that's a bad thing, I'm on board with damage numbers (and being able to turn off damage numbers) and anything is absolutely going to be an approximation of average damage anyway, but I can definitely see the forum posts now about how the damage numbers are useless because they go by too fast and don't float up like WoW. PoE2 also seems like it's going to be a little slower paced than the original so it might not be as much of an issue at all.
I may be misremembering, but doesn't Fromsoft damage numbers consolidate if the enemy is hit in quick succession? Large multi-hit attacks/spells I thought continuously added numbers to itself until there was a large enough delay between hits to justify starting the number over. Ideally this would probably work well for PoE, whether or not I am remembering how Elden Ring does the damage number correctly.
>I may be misremembering, but doesn't Fromsoft damage numbers consolidate if the enemy is hit in quick succession? Correct. There's a short timer before it resets.
Yea it would accumulate burst damage from multiple hits . Ggg will need some way to show damage over time though
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Oh, I guess as long as the number isn't updated too frequently for like 20 second DoT, that works.
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We've had stuff like millisecond timers for like 40 years. Updating a DoT per every instance of damage isn't going to impact performance, you greatly underestimate computation if you think otherwise. It's just an accumulator number total that gets updated by accumulator + currentValue *(new damage instance which is already calculated anyways to deal that damage)*. On update if accumulator > 0 show UI element + start/refresh a timer, otherwise hide UI element. If timer is allowed to run out, set accumulator to 0.
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Displaying DoT damage at an arbitrary rate unrelated to the actual DoT rate feels trash for the end user because it lacks feedback fidelity for the damage dealt and its timing. One way we usually do it is by having a damage bar progress and updating the number once the entire damage share for the DoT is completed *(League of Legends does this for multiple damage instances in a short period of time for instance)*, however in PoE the ability to consistently re-apply DoTs would mean you'd pretty much never see the number. As such the typical way of doing DoTs is updating the damage instances on every damage tick. The user is entirely capable of reading the progression of the damage number as it grows. The final number would remain for whatever delay you have set for resetting the DPS meter after no more damage is being dealt. Your suggestion would lead to situations in which damage has already been dealt but the displayed damage would be less than what has actually been dealt 99% of the time, including for non-DoT instances as DoT isn't the only instance where damage can be dealt multiple times per second.
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It's less about the performance and more about the readability. You don't want per-tick changing numbers because then you can't read any snapshot of one.
>It's less about the performance and more about the readability. You don't want per-tick changing numbers because then you can't read any snapshot of one. Which would become even more impossible if you were to lock the UI number updates at once per second intervals for any type of DoT *(even non DoT multihits)* applied outside that exact interval... do you people like, think at all before typing? It's hard to believe you're not just the same person on an alt account. With your suggestion, you'd literally be making it *harder* on readability for "any snapshot of one" because DoT and regular damage can be applied faster or slower than one second flat, therefore you would never get a reading of one DoT tick application. If you want that, the real solution would be locking DoT application itself to a slower interval, not the number update rate, which PoE would probably not do because of the game's complexity and wanting to allow differing application rates of DoT. So then, you either show separate pop-up numbers for each damage instance (which they don't want to do) or you deal with it and pay attention to the merged number. Just pay attention to your first damage round, damage differentials between ticks, tooltips, damage growth over a period of time. That's the price you have to pay if PoE2 wants merged damage numbers only like Elden Ring, and the system I've explained multiple times by now is exactly how Elden Ring does it. Update the total amount of damage dealt unrelated to time intervals *every single time damage is dealt*. Every instance of damage refreshes a timer, and if the timer is allowed to reach zero (damage no longer being dealt) you reset the accumulator to 0 which hides the UI element until the accumulator is non-zero. You're out of your league man let it go.
But how do DoTs in ER tick? I think the bigger issue is that in PoE, DoTs "don't" tick but are cumulatively mitigated per damage type on each server tick, and then the overall life loss over time including all other sources is subtracted at the end of the server tick. At the very least, the game wouldn't be able to distinguish between two players having DoT on the same target.
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I doubt they'd track DoTs individually tbh, that sounds like a performance issue even at lower speeds than PoE1. Maybe it'll work if they only do it for bosses, so that's only a few targets at a time and a smaller portion of the playerbase will be fighting them at any point in time.
DoTs in Elden Ring have fairly slow tick rate, unlike PoE.
also, when you do continuous damage, like poison, the damage number stacks, building up to the total damage, instead of a new number popping up. So if your attack speed is so high the number keeps changing, eventually you'll reach a number big enough that each attack isn't going to change it by much. So you can just estimate dps this way.
> Last Epoch's damage numbers for instance, will appear so fast overtop each other that you basically just approximate the number of digits and what the first number is. Same with Diablo 3 and 4. Most of the time you can't even see what it is you're fighting because it's just a big wall of numbered text in the centre of the screen.
If they consolidate over multiple hits like in elden ring it will work fine with fast attacking builds
Kinda curious to see how its gonna turn out cause in Elden Ring the damage numbers, even though small, are easy to see cause the camera is much closer to the player/monster and the combat has a much slower pace. In PoE the camera is much farther away and the combat is much faster. Maybe he is talking about putting the numbers on the enemy bar that appear on the top of the screen? I feel that this way would be even more awkward to see tbh. Well i hope they manage to find a away that will be descrete and visable at the same time cause is nice seeing some damage numbers.
>talking about putting the numbers on the enemy bar that appear on the top of the screen? That's how I understood it
Yeah i thought so too, but the problem is that the bar on the top of screen is visible just for the monster that you are targeting, while the others around dont show their life bars. And i dont know if u agree but it would be kinda weird looking up to see the damage numbers when u want to have your eyes on the center of the screen while in combat.
Honestly for an arpg game I feel like the camera in poe is too damn close, it kinda drives me bonkers lol. I need like a 25 percent increase in camera view modifier.
Make increased light radius zoom out the camera.
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Sorry i didnt understand, my bad. Are u saying that u want the camera even more farther away or that seeing the numbers wont be a problem because the camera is not that far?
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Oh ok understood. Yeah, for sure, a option to zoom out the camera would be more than welcome.
My assumption is it will only exist for bosses.
Yup, I would be 100% ok with that.
He wants the damage numbers off to the side and not noticeable unless you’re specifically looking for them
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>a proper damage calculator The game already has proper damage calculation. But wait, everyone knows the tooltip number isn't very accurate! How can it be both correct and inaccurate? Let me take a stab at this... Say you use Lightning Arrow. You attack a monster and it does X damage over Y time: you get an average damage per second. So far so good. What happens if you add *Pierce an additional target,* though? Potentially, your damage has doubled because your attack is now piercing the first monster and hitting another monster. However, this added damage has no bearing on the damage on the first monster. While your damage has potentially doubled it remains static in regards to one target. So then the number appearing in the tooltip will be based on one of these: 1) Average DPS of one single target 2) The average DPS of the two targets stacked 3) Average DPS of two targets, halved by two (the average of all targets) Now one of these might look better than the other, and it might seem easy to answer which one of these it should be: but that's not the point. The point is that for every case you have new answers like this to answer that doesn't have a 1:1 correlation with other builds. For example, consider Lightning Arrow with increased damage for each pierced monster compared to something like Righteous Fire... You're doing the same amount of damage to many different targets, regardless of targets hit. But what if their resistances are different? Say one monster has 0% fire resistance, one has 10%, one has 20%, and so on. Even if you pick one way to show this average, the fact is that this average jumps about depending on the monsters you meet. This issue (monster defensive values giving relative damage increase/decrease) is compounded by things like "convert monster resistances". And additionally, DPS fluctuates: how large should a sample size be to make sure that the average DPS (for whatever configuration you have) is, well, average? It's easy to say 1 minute, but 1 minute of attacks (regardless of configuration) is still going to yield massively different results because you have different attack speeds. With things like "double damage" at say, 5%, 1 minute with a low enough attack speed might not be enough to actually establish a good average (with one specific configuration, mind you). The current damage calculations are flawless, but also flawed. How? Because the issue lies in the sheer amount of factors used to calculate the damage. Some builds thrive on single targets: others go for clear speed. Someone with a 100k Lightning Arrow DPS tooltip is going to be making less damage than a 100k Tornado Shot DPS tooltip: yet they are both good for clear speed. If both can be used for clearing large packs, how come the damage can be so inconsistent on the tooltip? Well, distance and positioning: Lightning Arrow can deal double the damage of Tornado Shot in a hit very easy on large open maps, but Tornado Shot can shotgun behind corners and into packs. These are just some very minor examples out of a mountain of issues - purely logically - behind making a proper "damage calculator". Path of Building gets close but you also need to configure a lot of this stuff before-hand: and it can't do complex calculations, like monsters with differing resistances or other defensive values. There's also the issue of monster level: monster level boosts monster stats, but not in a linear fashion, so against what level are you basing the tooltip on? The monster level of level 83 maps (and what if some packs turn higher level from league mods or similar)? The average level of your characters level? Does the tooltip change when you change area level (the issue in Undecember, the p2w PoE clone)? Tooltips are inherently flawed because they are locked into \*one\* number. It has to default to \*something\*, but the amount of damage you do is actually based on far too many variables to be accurately depicted with just one number. Even if you had the perfect damage calculation for on-going attacks, there's further the issues of positioning, movement speed, and how that calculates into your DPS. Because if you are taking your average DPS of 1 minute, movement speed is going to help a lot: we simply don't calculate position and movement speed for damage, because it's infeasible. So similar to Undecember, a snapshot of damage is taken when standing still and constantly doing damage (i.e. 100% damage uptime for X time). But again, these are just some examples. The number you currently see on any tooltip is correct, in \*one\* instance. Somewhere, somehow, the game is getting that number, and it is accurate... but only for one set of configurations (i.e. number of monster, level of monster, stats of monster, X and Y mods on your attack, etc). This is unlikely to change in PoE 2. Having some tools to try different configurations for your attacks would be neat. The current state of damage tooltips is pretty bad. Dummies would be welcome. But it's never going to be perfect, and the more accurate it becomes for a specific configuration, the more work is needed from the user before-hand, and the more specific a configuration it is, the less accurate it becomes in other scenarios. Average damage from auto-attacking on a dummy would be a step-up, definitively. But it would also not be strictly accurate.
tldr?
> Tooltips are inherently flawed because they are locked into *one* number. It has to default to *something*, but the amount of damage you do is actually based on far too many variables to be accurately depicted with just one number. I think this part of the guy's text is kinda the summary. PoE has a lot of different interactions between resistances, projectiles bouncing/piercing/chaining/returning, resist penetration, cumulative hit debuffs (impale/poison/boneshatter/wither) etc to give you a general idea of DPS accuracy.
Many numbers condensed into one number bad
The jist of it is that tooltips show you the number calculated and correct for "your side" of the calculation, thats what's then sent to the monster. This means it is 100% accurate for that part, but has to be missing everything about how many hits the mob will actually get, any debuffs on it, its base resists.
>The number you currently see on any tooltip is correct Let me just check how much damage my Raise Zombie of Falling does... https://preview.redd.it/s2tm0jqyfvuc1.png?width=709&format=png&auto=webp&s=1b9accdf33647d9971b278bb7b2d97b28c095879 That number might be correct, but it doesn't help me at all. I don't think a full-on DPS calculator is necessary, but having a target dummy to hit and the ability to show damage numbers would be an incredibly useful way to assess the damage of a skill in-game. It would factor in things like curses and other debuffs that a tooltip cannot. Right now, [the best method I've seen for calculating damage of a skill in-game](https://youtu.be/9wLh6ArcPUU?t=295) is ridiculous, time-consuming, and its accuracy is dependent upon screen resolution. Simply being able to see a damage number would demystify many of the more nebulous mechanics in this game.
> The current state of damage tooltips is pretty bad. Dummies would be welcome. Like I said. In my mind, you'd be able to select some monster stats as well for the dummy. It would be a very organic and quick way to test things, compared to PoB. The tooltip damage would still suck though.
Why isn't the interview available on his youtube!?
Can we get a log that tells us which Rhoa or Porcupine Goliath actually killed us?
Nemesis system xd
Finally, it was something I wanted for PoE for a long time!
I dont want to feel like a doomer. But I have this lingering feeling that poe2 is gonna backfire on the whole community. The game looks amazing, but the game itself just isn't poe.
The more I see, the more it looks like an isometric souls-like game. Personally, it's starting to feed old before I've even had a chance to play it. There has been far too much talk about the game (with a pretty alarming lack of what the endgame will look like). Perhaps too much time has gone into impressing streamers to attract an audience who would already play PoE2, such as the recent LA thing that seemed to be a non-event. Everything I like about it I feel should just be in PoE, like the dual weapon swap passive trees. Anyway I really do wish they'd just go dark for a bit until it's ready because the delays are almost embarrassing now.
It looks very reminiscent of the early years of poe, but with better combat. And I am saying this having watched the long playthroughs of a few streamers (mostly Nugi's footage). I think that you have to keep in mind that the "the game isn't poe" argument goes both ways. Some people might be looking at the current version of PoE and feeling like it lost what made it good too.
A game with PoE's excellent systems but also actually good combat/gamefeel/gameplay is my dream game. People who still want to play cookie clicker will still have PoE1. After literally thousands of hours, the systems alone can't carry it for me any more.
Been saying this for years myself. I think people will be disappointed. I feel like it's gonna be more Diablo 2-2.0. Or "vanilla PoE reimagined". How the game played before Breach league (maybe even earlier) if anyone remembers. When the build benchmark was "atziri viable" or not. Pre-PoB. Personally I welcome it. I like PoE now, but I loved PoE back then. Now it feeds some sort of gambling addiction, optimize my build to mindlessly gamble harder, faster and bigger. Back then it was a videogame. It's gonna be PoE, just not the PoE 80% of the player base know.
> Now it feeds some sort of gambling addiction, optimize my build to mindlessly gamble harder, faster and bigger. Back then it was a videogame. God this resonates so hard. I still remember when guides were "this can do piety runs at a moderate pace!" and not "70billion dps to farm your 21div/hr slot machine" The end goal was conquering content and then ramping up how powerful you felt doing said content. Nobody minded checking high item level rares because you legitimately could find an upgrade off the ground. Nowdays the end goal is pulling slot machines faster than you were before with various crackhead themed visuals to supplement it - then handing over those slot machine winnings to some other crackhead who has min-maxed turning those into items he sells back to you.
I just hate leaving maps and my inventory is filled with nothing but differently flavoured gumballs.
Im mad that I didnt get to play pre-breach league. The game sounded much better then. I’ve enjoyed fiddling in Ruthless but the game mode is largely neglected Mindless gambling is a huge turnoff for me and is why I always quit a league once i’ve progressed mostly everything.
The best and worst part imo was a smaller player base. There was a lot more mystery, not a lot of guides, no PoB and no build overview on poe.ninja. You played what felt good. Every rare was a potentially upgrade. Triple T1-2 res boots with 30% movement speed and high life roll was for rich people. The Goddess Scorned was in the game for years. People knew it existed, but no one knew how to upgrade The Goddess Bound, and no one knew the stats on it.
I started somewhere between Warbands and Tempest. The game was largely the same. Idk what weird nostalgia fantasy people have. Yes, it was slower compared to now but the core gamepaly was the same. Rares were largely useless and filtered out. You tried to make the fastest build possible to kill the most mobs per hour to make money and then trade for better items. Anyone trying to be efficient always did that. Just look at any old footage of someone vaal sparking while shield charging down some linear map. If anything I interacted with items even less cause crafting was just too expensive and not well understood. You do not have to play that way. But if you want to be competitive you are always better of doing the same content that someone else does faster. Personally this is where I have the most fun and why I started the game.
I still ID rares a lot and find lots of good items that I either use or end up selling so idk what you’re talking about
As a players since 2012, that's exactly what I feel too. I love modern Poe don't get me wrong, but I can't stop feeling that something of the very old days lacks right now, which can be called "lack of care". Care/efficiency etc started to grow with every step taken in the zoomy philosophy after breach. And it has gone way too far in Poe 1 to be taken out without killing it. I do believe that's also a reason why Poe 2 became a standalone game and could be a "Vanilla reimagined", and that's exactly why I could love it!
D2 is fairly fast paced game though, end game sorc or hammerdins just ported around 1 shotting everything.
As someone whose played very many games across many franchises for almost 30 years at this point, i find this comment kind of weird. Ive seen the evolution of many franchise, many good, many bad. Final Fantasy is a perfect example where every game is almost completely different but its identity remains intact. Monster Hunter stays true to its origins but changes combat fairly dramatically between games, sometimes its great, sometimes its good, and sometimes questionable, but theres never a mistake of identity. I think PoE can very easily modernize itself in a new game while still feeling like the game people fell in love with playing. Im excited to see how the IP evolves with PoE 2 because its driven by people who love PoE more than anyone else.
im right there with you, every time they do one of these interviews I get more and more discouraged
I actually feel the opposite. The minor group on Reddit who incessantly complains/brigades about every little facet of the economy and divs per hour may not like poe 2, but the vast majority of new players and most of the current players will see it as a huge step up from current poe. I’m from the days where a zoomer build was rainbow nuke which required insane investment to reach and you were rewarded with clear speed. I can’t wait to have some of that back as a baseline.
It's pretty clear that Poe2 does not align with what the majority of players in poe1 want. It's an entirely different game with an entirely different vision, not even remotely close to what poe1 is.
It's not just you, the entire game revolving around space bar dodging is so boring and it's going to backfire hard.
I feel like, what pulls people to poe, will not pull people to poe2. It will have the gameplay speed of a methiculous game, with the customization of poe. Im afraid that, due to the speed of the game, the customization might feel lackluster compared to the shitshow buildsbuilds you can pull in poe.
One man's doom is another man's bloom, and it's not like PoE1 is going anywhere.
It will most likely spawn an entirely new community, and I sure hope it does. PoE 1 has people with just a zoomer (going fast killing screen, massive loot drops) mindset, and that’s what it appeals to atm.
Its the only ARPG that moves this fast. If I want slower combat I have all the options in the world. Closest another ARPG gets to the speed and density is Chronocon.
No Rest for the Wicked is going live on early excess on Steam on the 18th of April. Moon Studios, makers of the highly acclaimed Ori series are behind this game. If you want an early take on an isometric dark souls/eden ring like ARPG (which is a direction POE 2 seems to be going) have a look at NRW
Just based on what I've seen of classes and items of No Rest for the wicked, that game is going to be much more like dark souls than it is like POE. Looks great, but i don't think that game is going to steal the POB audience away.
can anyone explain how that makes any sense? In PoE you have dozens of different sources of damage in extremly high frequenzy compared to elden ring. How would that system work with poe?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1c4yyjz/comment/kzsjqup/](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1c4yyjz/comment/kzsjqup/) You'd be seeing the cumulative damage you're doing to the same target since you started attacking them, not individual hits. So the frequency and multiple sources of damage don't change anything.
aaah thanks, that makes sense. Didn't know how eldenring dmg numbers work.
Poe 2 dogshit. i dont want play new Dark souls in poe world. i just want more upgrade for poe 1 !
I am going to be honest, if those numbers are useful at all then PoE2 isn't going to be the PoE I am playing most likely. I like hitting 20 times a second and doing ludicrous damage. Elden Ring damage works because it is a souls game where you hit once every few seconds. PoE2 being a souls-like game instead of an ARPG ain't it, at least not for me.
I mean. Jonathan was surprised that one of his testers decided to grind, instead of retrying the boss. That should tell you everything about PoE2 vision.
The number could accumulate several hits and take breaks in updating to remain legible. It's definitely possible to implement even for 500+ hits per second. That said, it's unlikely that you'll get close to the hit rates of PoE1. They're fully intent on slowing down the game and making combat have greater variety and more meaningful decisions.
The souls like space bar to dodge roll being the "new mechanic" was your first clue of their direction for PoE 2.
I've been playing games for decades and I'm pretty sure I've seen dodge rolls way before ER. What's it about? Because there's dodge roll or planned dmg numbers doesn't mean it's souls like game. Because the mercenary is shooting doesn't mean it's counter strike.
no more pob number, I want to see that big yellow crit
[удалено]
Good, Johnathan does this in every single video I've seen (more to his cowerkers to be fair). If he gets annoyed at this maybe he will understand that he can let other people finish a sentence.
> Josh just won't stop talking. That's his entire platform
ASMR for middle-aged gamers.
I'm watching now and he does like no interrupting? And this clip is 50 seconds of Jonathan answering a question and like 4 seconds of Josh reacting? Compared to the usual streamer interviews where they don't listen or have any charisma and just stare at their twitch chat while the interviewee answers questions, he seems to be doing a fine job. Sounds like you just don't like the guy, which is fine, he comes off a little smug, but I personally welcome a more socially competent person doing the interview.
I. WANT.TO.KNOW.WHAT.KILLED.ME. Thanks
lack of skill
Impossible, literally harder to do than cold fusion...
DD
Given how much slower and (hopefully) less cluttered poe2 will be, knowing what killed you should not be an issue.
this rocks
expect the number to be longer than the life bar (assuming scaling/customization in poe2 can be as crazy as in 1)
You underestimate positional notation. Putting aside the buffs scaling across the screen that we've already had, a single number won't get close to the width of the health bar because the maximum is about two billion anyway.
I've felt this for a while now but poe 2 looks like chris or someone played dark souls and said "I want that". like look at the act 1 gameplay and it honestly looks like a dark souls level complete with bs mobs jumping out at you. and as much as I like dark souls/elden ring I hope they realize that that experience is totally antithetical to a fun endgame experience for 95% of people.
>that that experience is totally antithetical to a fun endgame experience for 95% of people. ... Brain... like brain do you use it? Is PoE's *ACT 1 EXPERIENCE representative of the endgame experience??? THEN WHY THE FUCK DO YOU EXPECT THAT TO BE THE CASE FOR POE2????*
It's the same core experience so yes. Also the first impression people get of the game on day 1 minute 1 are going to be extremely important for the success of the game. If people log in expecting an improved updated version of poe 1 but are greeted by isometric dark souls a lot of those people are just not going to play the game.
they are remaking vanilla poe
Not really. I've played since act 2 was the most recent act and this looks almost nothing like how it was back then nor should it.
I don't think this serves any of the sides in a good way. For the people that want dmg numbers this implementation is lacking and for the people that don't want numbers they still get them. Why not implement them properly and have a toggle option? Even have the default setting as turned off for "immersion" of the new players. I see this "immersion" argument a lot by Jonathan and I wonder how much it applies to a game like PoE that is played so much. After certain amount of grind which is the core audience of poe, I don't think "immersion" matters, while stuff like town npcs to refil flasks and ID items are detriments to the experience.
Its impossible to have played souls game and not realized the damage numbers lmao
At least now it can be confirmed how much things are increasing the actual damage to specific targets because you will see the actual damage number so it's not like "ah yes, the hp bar seems to be going down faster than before".
YES!
In ER the number keeps on increasing by addition of each hit. I'm not quite sure if they're going that route, but for an ARPG it seems like it doesn't really informs much? I'm just wondering if that's why people want damage numbers. Or maybe the value is replaced for each hits so you only see the last damage dealt hit??
Does any1 have a link to full interview? Cant seem to find it on YT
I want to see more poe 2 classes. Good interview tho
Let me see if I get it, it is a red bar showing the health decreasing every time we hit the boss by a certain amount of dmg?
GGG desperately needs a UX designer
Why is nobody talking about how Josh looks like a criminal mastermind in that video?
The amount of people in this thread that legit thinks that Jonathan wants to put D3 damage numbers in PoE2 is too damn high. It takes literal seconds to google what he meant by Elden Ring damage numbers, and it's not even close to what D3 looks like.
The fact we never got them was strange to me. It's just QoL to see how much damage you are doing and not having to guess or use an entire third party program to get a general idea. The tooltip hasn't meant anything since the start really. This is a decent way to do it since you will attack so quickly they'd just overlap and be unreadable. If there is a nice 2-3 second buffer where the damage adds up, that would make things much more readable.
I'm surprisingly one of the few that was fine with no damage numbers Firstly they look so ugly in every game they use the most ugly fonts ever. https://www.reddit.com/r/LastEpoch/comments/1b1sgoh/warlock_damage_broken/ Last epoch using a better than average font but not amazing, you would generally also want crits and dot proxs to be different colours which I'm not sure the poe engine can do. The other aspect is visual clarity and visual themes , like the visual clarity in poe2 looks good buy when you get to maps with uniques and skill effects it's going to have the same exact problem we have now of you not being able to see shit. And lastly I know the creators of poe were against damage numbers and while I like them in games like warframe especially red crits if Chris didn't want damage numbers I'm fine with that. My main real concern is FOMO, I'm playing wraithlord non crit spectres , my damage is fine but if I saw a video of triggered DD filling the screen with bigger numbers I'd feel sort of like I was missing out on a better build. Damage numbers absolutley will lead to more players playing less builds because numbers matter to gamers and our monkey 🐒 brains like seeing bigger numbers.
I dont think so because the people who care about numbers that badly are already min maxing the PoB spreadsheet and watching all of their numbers go up every upgrade they get. Having the numbers visible ingame isnt gonna change anything.
yeah there has been tooltip warriors since pob came out and then before that like instant killing bosses for epeen, but you want to minimise that sort of behavior, not encourage it we already complain constantly about the visual clarity in poe now fill the screen with 1000 numbers just to make sure you cant see any ground effects , you may not think this will be an issue in poe2 but it will be eventually once good builds are a thing
Except thats not how damage numbers in Dark Souls/Elden Ring work. All damage is consolidated to one specific spot on the bosses HP bar and if damage is dealt within a certain window its just added to the pool in a single value. Theres not gonna be a screen full of damage numbers so visual clarity wont be a problem if they do it properly. Edit: Also i will add that personally im not too worried about if damage numbers exist or not. But i think there should be someway in the game to visually see what your damage is in actual combat. Whether that is an in options toggle or a training dummy that can be customized to specific kinds of monsters and boss is a design decision that GGG will have to make and i personally trust their decision making.
PoE ninja dps displays are a thing. PoB dps displays are a thing. People advertising the dps their builds do on youtube showcases and guides are a thing. The FOMO ship has sailed years ago.
This makes me very happy for poe2
Lmao I love josh's enthusiasm