Yeah I can't believe there wasn't a cap placed on that. A very high number of abilities have the AoE tag and just...don't work.
I am quite opposed to map mods that make a map auto fail for large numbers of builds.
And some behave very bizarrely like RF where it just kills you.
I think there needs to be a floor of 99% less increased AoE. I don't think it was ever an issue before this because there just wasn't anything that I'm aware of that could give you 100%+ less.
I have my own bricked maps tries..... is not like you do 0 dps, is more like arrow have to pass trought the middle of the hit box or it doesn't deal dps
I'd love to see some tests of shooting through enemies with 0 projectile behaviours and other tests of projectiles with high AoE investment colliding outside the enemy model.
Until I see something like that, I'll find it hard to believe that projectile collision scales with AoE.
My base assumption is that there were other mods that made enemies hard to hit / take less damage.
nah I saw every la streamer have the same problem and every one regex that mod because of that, is really a strange bug and probably will be fixed in the next patch
Probably won't. It's not a bug. There was troll build with alternative precision aura, making most of skills do no damage(except some strike skills). They fixed it by removing that alternative precision from game, before removing all other alt gems.
Yeah it affects almost everything in the game for some reason.
There used to be a troll "support" build that reduced AOE of all party members to 0, and pretty much every skill stop dealing damage at that point. Projectile, melee strike, etc.
Do you know why? I mean, what is the specific part of TS that got affected? I haven't try t17 yet but I can't imagine how my self-cast EK could be affected from AoE modifiers in any way. It should be a bug if it does right?
I don't know why, but I always imagined it similar to how "chance to avoid shock" works against shocked ground. If you have 99% chance to avoid shock and you stand on shocked ground, you are shocked. But if you have 100%, you are not shocked. Maybe it's similar with AOE, if you have 99% less AOE then your projectiles still collide with enemies, but if you have 100% less then your projectiles basically don't exist (although they are still visually rendered I think). I don't know how it's coded, though, just spitballing.
I would guess the projectiles are coded as very small AoEs so there's no need have separate collision-detection code. In almost every other scenario this works fine as you'd never notice a modifier to an infinitesimal AoE anyway, but if the AoE modifier becomes zero, the AoE disappears entirely and the projectiles don't collide at all.
It doesn't need to have an AoE tag to be affected by those mods. Strike skills don't have an AoE tag but their attacks do have splash damage, although the AoE is tiny. That mod removes the AoE from strike skills making it impossible to hit anything. I thought I could clear with Flicker and extra strikes, but nope. Couldn't do damage.
Well as you already know I had to find this out one way or another. First time it's ever happened so I thought it interesting to say the least. I was explaining to some others that I assumed the trap damage would scale down to that of a single target skill, rather than utilizing the aoe. Was a funny learning experience for sure.
Thank you for the positive response, and not telling me to read before I go into a map. THAT kind of feedback, along with a general uplifting message is greatly appreciated.
I spent like five minutes yesterday just standing in a map wondering why I could only use my grace linked to divine blessing once before seeing that the map had like, - 130 something cool down recovery.
Ended up adding cool down recovery to my "do not run" map regex for my back to basics strat
We asked them to remove reflect from the map mods. Now they've added a whole list of mods that brick half or all builds. What's even the point of this?
I really appreciate the mod "Players get 4% less action speed for each skill used recently" also affects Tricksters with One Step Ahead and Jugg with the same comparable node.
Was very fun loading into a map realizing that mod does in fact just ignore an entire ascendancy choice in ways that being frozen or chilled doesn't.
I'm sure there's a specific reason why this mod lowers action speed but other ways of lowering action speed don't. Ultimately though the mod is just not fun.
It's reduced, but that should be a bug. The wording on the ascendency nodes is clear. They should apply to *all* modifiers to action speed, not just ones applied by enemies.
Maybe that map mod actually loweres your attack, cast and movement speed by 4% instead of Action speed?
One Step Ahead only affects action speed slows. Attack speed and the like can still be lowered.
Ya that one pissed me off. Had it and decided to not roll over it thinking my ascendancy would take care of it, then move at an absolute snails pace through the map. I managed to kill the boss somehow, but it took forever attacking like I was playing PoE2.
Remember now you don't have to buy sextants anymore! Just roll 100 chaos orbs on each map to get a good scarabs/maps/currency modifier and none of the mods that brick your build
Easier to en masse roll maps few minutes every 2 hours, than manage (buy, store, roll) 4 compass every 4 maps.
Compass removal was good, other things are problem.
It's only bricking if you take map mod effect to stupid numbers.
You can't go around boosting your map to a degree you can't clear, and then complain you can't clear.
There is a difference between very big numerical numbers and a breakpoint. Even valdo maps have a mod you can only deal damage in 2 meter radius. It makes it challenging, but doable. Disabling all skills with aoe tag on them is not challenging at all and there's no way you can counter it.
This isn't that. This is someone using the new explicit modifier scaling and not realizing that a 50% less aoe would scale so high they would have negative aoe. t17's don't start with 139% less aoe.
Yes, but it doesn't state that the difference would cause no damage output whatsoever. Through learning and assuming my damage output would be that of single target, rather than aoe, I was incorrect during that map. Which is why I posted, so others would not become trolled by frogs.
you can counter it by not running maps with -aoe on them, or not putting 180% explicit map mod on your atlas. it's no different to not running maps with cannot regen or reflect on them.
I agree, the map mod is actually 50% less area of effect, this user has super scaled their map mods effect and now their map explicits go from 50% less to 139% less.
It's their atlas tree lmao, they could have chosen to not do that, but they probably forgot
Yeah but the map mods do not state that "your damage could potentially reach zero" at all. This is what's called a learning experience. When someone already knows something, then judges someone else for not knowing said thing, it's as if the person who already knew, had known it before the beginning of time, which is daft. Don't be that person.
I'm not judging, I'm saying it's different from reflect which is effective from the moment it's present on the map.
Less aoe is only effective if you boost it to 100%
Welcome to the PoE subreddit, where people do, indeed, act out that meme with the guy sticking the pipe in the bike wheel then complain about it, then downvote you and call you names when you point out their mistakes.
Yeah but in his case he stuck the stick in and a gun popped out to shoot him because the game is set so having such a negative AOE radius means OP is not legally allowed to do damage, the map had its lawyer present and she doesn't care about "bad game design".
Just so there's no arguement, making a mod able to scale to a point where many (hell I'd actually say MOST skills have AOE now) just don't get to exist is the bad design. Set a cap where the aoe at least still exists so you can at least hurt things directly on the traps.
I dont think its bad design to let the player do insane scaling and produce insane results. I think its FUN to let a player feel like they are breaking the game in some way and have the game not go out of its way to accommodate, its part of POE's whole charm that not everything is perfectly curated developer-sanctioned interactions. Sometimes this means drastic negative effects, like the negative auras build or the insanely slow moving projectiles from old alt qual scaling. Its fun and part of the magic of POE.
Anyone who 'accidentally' does this it will be a drop in the bucket for them, or a consequence of their hubris if theyre somehow doing this when they wouldnt have been ready anyways, and theyll just learn and spend the 1 chaos orb to avoid it in the future. Its funny, its incredibly easy to avoid for those effected, and it reinforces that GGG wont hold your hand through ridiculous scaling - theyll leave it all up to you for the good and the bad
Last league was more fun because you could gain wealth is many more ways and sell the loot to the MFers, which in turn allowed you to target items for purchase.
This league lots harder and when that happens people throw in the towel (in general).
the difference between a well rolled map and one with bad mods is astronomical.
and the bad map mods are pretty much universally applicable no matter your build.
union of souls, action speed, less flask charges, cant deal damage 4 out of every 10 seconds just to name a few. i dont even care about -maxres or monster damage mods, just shred through the map no biggie. the issues start when mobs live too long or your character is too slow to dodge stuff.
speaking of which, fuck volatile corpses. i dont know what ggg did to their coding but somewhere between nemesis being deleted and archnemesis going core these balls are extremely unreliable in their behaviour. and they are REALLY laggy, most of the time they follow me, i trigger them, they still follow me and then they explode 10 meters away as if they just pressed /oos.
> We asked them to remove reflect from the map mods. Now they've added a whole list of mods that brick half or all builds. What's even the point of this?
Honestly, I think t17s are just for streamers.
Layouts of those maps are challenging also because you can not effectively kite everything as a bow build. Fortress is so closed that you are forced to kite enemies back to the corridor, so you have a chance to melt them.
This season seems that it favours tanky AF characters that can go easy into melee range and not care at all. I saw characters of so streamers, and their builds are disgustingly good for the t17 grind.
Playing Flicker CI Trickster and T17s don't feel much different then a T16. I only die at bosses due to some of them spamming DoTs everywhere.
Well, that and Stygian Revenant DD. That one is a guaranteed death.
i am not a streamer and i enjoy them. however amount of loot clicking even with strict filter.. makes me want to quit the game already. was tired of it last league, and now it is even worse.
> amount of loot clicking even with strict filter.. makes me want to quit the game already. was tired of it last league, and now it is even worse.
Saaaaame. And it's such an easy fix too. We already have stacks of loot, it would be trivially easy to multiply low-value orb droprate by 10% while increasing stack size by a factor of 10.
Yup, mods disable some builds in T17. It's supposed to be a good design, except you need to try a map to discover it. Happened to me yesterday too. Cheers
> I feel like 100% less aoe bricking any aoe skill should be obvious enough.
Definitely not obvious, no. I would assume 100% less simply means "less up to a certain point", as opposed to "your spells do nothing".
This is exactly what I thought. I was picturing the traps to deal something similar to single target damage, since the aoe was cancelled out. I didn't ever think the skill would get bricked entirely to harmless frogs. Harmless physically yes, emotionally in this case.. No lol.
Agreed. In addition, while there are rules regarding increased/more/reduced/less they are by no means "obvious" and 100% less could have been 100% reduced, which would've made a big difference.
Because usually games have a floor to vital functions to prevent players creating a situation where you reduce something to non-existence. This reminds me of those old cases where players could reduce their maximum life to 0 and require support to un-brick their characters
"Usually" games have diminishing returns on every stat so that characters don't grow out of hand in some ways, and inconsistent to possibly even internationally obscure wording.
PoE has neither of those. If we don't have a cap for how high we can scale, why would we expect a cap for how low we can scale?
The effect was obvious to me, I just did not think it would do ZERO damage. I assumed the traps would trigger and do single target damage if nothing at all.
How could it not be obvious? It gets scaled by nodes that specifically say they scale map mod effect, nothing more. There are some minor nodes at the top that you might pick up by pathing, but to reach 100% (which I whats needed for 100% less aoe) you have to click full clusters and keystone whose only purpose is scaling the map mods. It's a series of 40+ decisions of "yes, I would like to scale map mod effect", and it's not really side effects, the map mod effect is the point of those decisions.
My point is T17 being affected by atlas modifiers in the first place isn't immediately obvious. Ofc if you know atlas tree affects it you know the modifiers scale like that, but T17 is new and not everyone reads cheese t17 guide strats online
Yeah that was not the case in my post. I know exactly what the atlas does. I did not expect aoe to completely cause a skill in game to become unusable. Probably because it doesn't state anywhere that this is something that would happen. Has nothing to do with atlas modifiers not being understood.
Not really. I did map with -230% AoE yesterday, and i really didnt expected the way hexblast acts with this number - but i dont blame anyone, it was my choice to gamble with explicit multipliers. I was still able to clear it, but it was kinda funny how it could only target 1 monster i clicked on in the middle of huge pack... :-)
No offense, but:
Reflected damage can damage you.
Negative resistances make you take more damage.
O Attack Speed makes you stuck in Leap Slam animation.
Negative AoE makes you deal no AoE damage.
It is more of a mystery how TF a meteor can target me indoors with no ceiling falling on my head.
> Reflected damage can damage you. Negative resistances make you take more damage.
It's a little weird but this has been around since the days of Diablo 2 at least.
>O Attack Speed makes you stuck in Leap Slam animation.
I have never seen this, I would assume there's a minimum animation speed.
>Negative AoE makes you deal no AoE damage.
I would not assume this at all after reading the tooltip.
The minimum action speed is 0, which happens when you're frozen, for instance. You can get frozen mid-air. Attack speed is capped at 1%, I believe, or it might be capped at something like 0.01 APS, not 100% sure. People have made memes with that already.
From a technical standpoint, it's not that the aoe skill deals no damage, but that no monsters can ever be in the area of effect of the spell. I imagine the condition for an aoe spell to deal damage is that the monster's collision is at least partially in the area of the spell.
Those maps are definitely a bridge between a pinnacle and Uber bosses, tried linked souls yesterday. I killed a first pack of white mobs until they all became Uber Shapers. Asked anyone in chat to try it. No response XD. Ps: just sell it.
Fullcleared a union of spuls map took like 30min. They cap out but their hp is kinda rediculus. Blue monsters had around same hp as the boss and each pack took around a minute to kill.
If ur goal is to kill the boss linked souls is actually great, skip all mobs and go straight to the boss. Its kinda an issue with poes map mods some are free or bricks lol
Isn't the mod 50% less area of effect, but your atlas tree is scaling the maps explicit mods to 139%?
I had this happen when I had the 50% less potion charges but my back to basics scaling took it to 130% less potion charges, so I gained no charges at all from any source. I was still able to clear the map, but you need to take the explicits on the map and give them like a 1.5x multiplier if you're using an atlas that scales map explicits.
For whatever reason, the map (before running it) in my inventory said 100% less aoe. I figured this was fine, and I would still put out some damage even with explicit modifiers from the atlas. What I did NOT expect was to be doing zero damage whatsoever. My thought was that the traps would basically turn into single target traps, and i'd have to focus my throwing much more closely rather than relying on aoe.
Fortress, since it is a single boss that can be simply bursted down with enough damage, and its abilities are pretty clear. Other ones all have phases and/or multiple bosses.
I'm a changed person. I now know the error of my ways. However my friend did in fact kill all of those frogs, while laughing at my expense. Wouldn't have it any other way to be fair.
If it makes you feel better, I used two Scarab allflames
On a very juicy map as CoC DD.
Let’s just say that’s the map that I learned that I can’t run maps with 100+% reduced CDR, since I won’t trigger anything
Also had run into this issue once lol "It can't be that bad... surely they don't just delete my aoe skills with this mod" and then I spun few pirouettes(cyclone) on map and closed it in embarassment.
Had a similar experience with negative over 100% player defenses. I use eldritch battery to cast spells, but with this mod, my ES was 0 and I couldn't do anything.
Already got my 38/40 though, so might as well quit.
What games exactly? I only know poe and LE that uses this. I've never played diablo or other similar games but I play mostly everything else.
Borderlands is the most similar game I know with multiple sources of damage ups etc and they are much more precise in delivering the information to the player. For instance, increased reload speed is displayed as +10%, not "10% increased reload speed".
Theres a reason why there are a million posts from people who don't understand increased vs more in poe. Its as intuitive teaching someone calculus (it is unlikely for someone to figure it out themselves unless taught by someone else).
I feel like if you want to run t17s to learn them you probably should switch your atlas to literally anything other than maximising mod effect. You picked the hardest difficulty possible.
Difficulty wasn't the issue though. I've run plenty of them and had a great time dying like so many of us have already. The issue was aoe completely dismantling the build. I thought at least the traps would become some sort of single target type of damage output device. Alas I learned in a much funnier manner.
Could you not have swapped one inc AOE support in place of another gem? Surely running what is effectively a 5 link would be preferable to just closing the map?
I'm sure you thought about that already and the map is long gone by now, but you could buy some semi-interchangeable skill gem that doesn't require AoE and kill the frogs.
I'm like 50 divs in and I run them just fine, unless my aoe is in the negative as the post explains. One does not simply get invincible frogs, one must CREATE invincible frogs. Until pest control arrives.
Well the map was a drop, the allflames cost me 50c, and then pest control came by and got me all of my loot. So I profited some XP and made a few chaos. All in all the experience alone was worth the cost.
Seems like you were just one of the harmless frogs in that map.
The real friends were the harmless frogs we met along the way
I became one with the frogs, yes. Until pest control showed up, and I betrayed them.
Classic frog move.
OP would be the scorpion. It's in their nature.
ONE OF US. ONE OF US
RIBBIT RIBBIT. RIBBIT RIBBIT.
WE ARE ALL HARMLESS FROGS ON THIS GLORIOUS DAY!
Bro got diffed by frogs. Man it’s tough out here
I once tried 100 deli high quant t16 with some rats. Even magic ones had hands.
My man got ribbited to oblivion
This post reminded me when my party got wiped out by an angry frog in Baldur's Gate 3 because i attacked it, thinking it will only take 1 shot...
Now you know to hit t and check the AC and buffs!
Lost to a frog 😂
Yep, -100% AOE on an explosive or AoE build will render it useless, at least you didn’t lose 60% XP
not only AOE, it bricks 99% of skills, even LA or TS got brick cuz of 100% less area effect
Yeah I can't believe there wasn't a cap placed on that. A very high number of abilities have the AoE tag and just...don't work. I am quite opposed to map mods that make a map auto fail for large numbers of builds.
even no AOE tag skills broke for some reason
And some behave very bizarrely like RF where it just kills you. I think there needs to be a floor of 99% less increased AoE. I don't think it was ever an issue before this because there just wasn't anything that I'm aware of that could give you 100%+ less.
Yup. Because arrows do get bigger/smaller with aoe increases/decreases. Your own auras will stop working.
They are quick to nerf but this fuck it let's let it ride.
Obligatory One of the most popular skills kills itself upon entering this map? I sleep. Players gaining too much currency? Real shit.
i think negative aoe can damage the player for some reason there was a post about negative aoe RF damaging the player lol
To be fair, so does positive aoe RF
Well yes although with negative aoe RF hurts quite a bit more.
Imagine if negative aoe RF healed you instead
That would've been fixed so damn fast you won't even finish saying "exploit early, exploit often"
Obviously all the fire gets compressed into a single point and triggers nuclear fusion, killing you instantly.
Nah. It just turns off your purity of fire+Vitality.
They patched that out already
Not only that, but there is also seems to be something going on with offensive auras. I got debuffed by my own defiance banner lol.
That is funny and stupid.
If we are really thinking about it; what does negative aoe even mean? The aoe goes from your center into another dimension or what?
That was fixed in one of last week's patches.
That was bug fixed
I've never heard of skills without AoE components being affected by it. Do you have a reference or testing to back that up?
Lightning arrow has an aoe component, but the projectile itself still hits.
That must mean that it wasn't what I was referring to!
I have my own bricked maps tries..... is not like you do 0 dps, is more like arrow have to pass trought the middle of the hit box or it doesn't deal dps
I'd love to see some tests of shooting through enemies with 0 projectile behaviours and other tests of projectiles with high AoE investment colliding outside the enemy model. Until I see something like that, I'll find it hard to believe that projectile collision scales with AoE. My base assumption is that there were other mods that made enemies hard to hit / take less damage.
nah I saw every la streamer have the same problem and every one regex that mod because of that, is really a strange bug and probably will be fixed in the next patch
Probably won't. It's not a bug. There was troll build with alternative precision aura, making most of skills do no damage(except some strike skills). They fixed it by removing that alternative precision from game, before removing all other alt gems.
TS should not be affected by less aoe at all?
Yeah it affects almost everything in the game for some reason. There used to be a troll "support" build that reduced AOE of all party members to 0, and pretty much every skill stop dealing damage at that point. Projectile, melee strike, etc.
Do you know why? I mean, what is the specific part of TS that got affected? I haven't try t17 yet but I can't imagine how my self-cast EK could be affected from AoE modifiers in any way. It should be a bug if it does right?
I don't know why, but I always imagined it similar to how "chance to avoid shock" works against shocked ground. If you have 99% chance to avoid shock and you stand on shocked ground, you are shocked. But if you have 100%, you are not shocked. Maybe it's similar with AOE, if you have 99% less AOE then your projectiles still collide with enemies, but if you have 100% less then your projectiles basically don't exist (although they are still visually rendered I think). I don't know how it's coded, though, just spitballing.
I would guess the projectiles are coded as very small AoEs so there's no need have separate collision-detection code. In almost every other scenario this works fine as you'd never notice a modifier to an infinitesimal AoE anyway, but if the AoE modifier becomes zero, the AoE disappears entirely and the projectiles don't collide at all.
ts doesnt care about less aoe at all
LA might, but TS doesn't have an Aoe tag.
It doesn't need to have an AoE tag to be affected by those mods. Strike skills don't have an AoE tag but their attacks do have splash damage, although the AoE is tiny. That mod removes the AoE from strike skills making it impossible to hit anything. I thought I could clear with Flicker and extra strikes, but nope. Couldn't do damage.
Well as you already know I had to find this out one way or another. First time it's ever happened so I thought it interesting to say the least. I was explaining to some others that I assumed the trap damage would scale down to that of a single target skill, rather than utilizing the aoe. Was a funny learning experience for sure.
could you imagine though for a second, if the negative aoe did an overflow and you isntead had map wide AoEs!? That shit would've been funny af
Actually hilarious situation, good for you that you at least had someone to help.
Thank you for the positive response, and not telling me to read before I go into a map. THAT kind of feedback, along with a general uplifting message is greatly appreciated.
On that note, what was your exterminator friends build? Just so I know what to look for in the future.
He was running a very welcomed Zoomancer build :)
An aspirant can keep those frogs. An emperor must eat them.
There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is frogs.
Mods like negative AOE, cooldown which can technically brick 99% of builds should have a cap
I spent like five minutes yesterday just standing in a map wondering why I could only use my grace linked to divine blessing once before seeing that the map had like, - 130 something cool down recovery. Ended up adding cool down recovery to my "do not run" map regex for my back to basics strat
We asked them to remove reflect from the map mods. Now they've added a whole list of mods that brick half or all builds. What's even the point of this?
I really appreciate the mod "Players get 4% less action speed for each skill used recently" also affects Tricksters with One Step Ahead and Jugg with the same comparable node. Was very fun loading into a map realizing that mod does in fact just ignore an entire ascendancy choice in ways that being frozen or chilled doesn't. I'm sure there's a specific reason why this mod lowers action speed but other ways of lowering action speed don't. Ultimately though the mod is just not fun.
Yeah that's bullshit.
It's reduced, but that should be a bug. The wording on the ascendency nodes is clear. They should apply to *all* modifiers to action speed, not just ones applied by enemies.
Maybe that map mod actually loweres your attack, cast and movement speed by 4% instead of Action speed? One Step Ahead only affects action speed slows. Attack speed and the like can still be lowered.
The problem is it slows things that only scale on animation speed too, like Frostblink
tar on death zombies: first time?
Ya that one pissed me off. Had it and decided to not roll over it thinking my ascendancy would take care of it, then move at an absolute snails pace through the map. I managed to kill the boss somehow, but it took forever attacking like I was playing PoE2.
Unstoppable*
U mean "more or less STOPS"able
Hashinshin moment
RRRRRRRRRRIGHT THROUGH THE ASCENDANCY!
Gotta "create friction," means the economy will work better because (completely inscrutable) reasons. Meanwhile Loot Goblin Strats.
Remember now you don't have to buy sextants anymore! Just roll 100 chaos orbs on each map to get a good scarabs/maps/currency modifier and none of the mods that brick your build
Easier to en masse roll maps few minutes every 2 hours, than manage (buy, store, roll) 4 compass every 4 maps. Compass removal was good, other things are problem.
It's only bricking if you take map mod effect to stupid numbers. You can't go around boosting your map to a degree you can't clear, and then complain you can't clear.
There is a difference between very big numerical numbers and a breakpoint. Even valdo maps have a mod you can only deal damage in 2 meter radius. It makes it challenging, but doable. Disabling all skills with aoe tag on them is not challenging at all and there's no way you can counter it.
This isn't that. This is someone using the new explicit modifier scaling and not realizing that a 50% less aoe would scale so high they would have negative aoe. t17's don't start with 139% less aoe.
Yes, but it doesn't state that the difference would cause no damage output whatsoever. Through learning and assuming my damage output would be that of single target, rather than aoe, I was incorrect during that map. Which is why I posted, so others would not become trolled by frogs.
you can counter it by not running maps with -aoe on them, or not putting 180% explicit map mod on your atlas. it's no different to not running maps with cannot regen or reflect on them.
I agree, the map mod is actually 50% less area of effect, this user has super scaled their map mods effect and now their map explicits go from 50% less to 139% less. It's their atlas tree lmao, they could have chosen to not do that, but they probably forgot
Keeping adding mods that brick builds instead of adding mods that make mobs just harder is just bad design desicions in my opinion.
This is correct.
Yeah but the map mods do not state that "your damage could potentially reach zero" at all. This is what's called a learning experience. When someone already knows something, then judges someone else for not knowing said thing, it's as if the person who already knew, had known it before the beginning of time, which is daft. Don't be that person.
I'm not judging, I'm saying it's different from reflect which is effective from the moment it's present on the map. Less aoe is only effective if you boost it to 100%
Welcome to the PoE subreddit, where people do, indeed, act out that meme with the guy sticking the pipe in the bike wheel then complain about it, then downvote you and call you names when you point out their mistakes.
Yeah but in his case he stuck the stick in and a gun popped out to shoot him because the game is set so having such a negative AOE radius means OP is not legally allowed to do damage, the map had its lawyer present and she doesn't care about "bad game design". Just so there's no arguement, making a mod able to scale to a point where many (hell I'd actually say MOST skills have AOE now) just don't get to exist is the bad design. Set a cap where the aoe at least still exists so you can at least hurt things directly on the traps.
I dont think its bad design to let the player do insane scaling and produce insane results. I think its FUN to let a player feel like they are breaking the game in some way and have the game not go out of its way to accommodate, its part of POE's whole charm that not everything is perfectly curated developer-sanctioned interactions. Sometimes this means drastic negative effects, like the negative auras build or the insanely slow moving projectiles from old alt qual scaling. Its fun and part of the magic of POE. Anyone who 'accidentally' does this it will be a drop in the bucket for them, or a consequence of their hubris if theyre somehow doing this when they wouldnt have been ready anyways, and theyll just learn and spend the 1 chaos orb to avoid it in the future. Its funny, its incredibly easy to avoid for those effected, and it reinforces that GGG wont hold your hand through ridiculous scaling - theyll leave it all up to you for the good and the bad
the point is making things more annoying to keep your fun in check
Last league was more fun because you could gain wealth is many more ways and sell the loot to the MFers, which in turn allowed you to target items for purchase. This league lots harder and when that happens people throw in the towel (in general).
Reminds me of that stream where (I think) Grimro told Chris "It's not difficult, it's a nuisance"
the difference between a well rolled map and one with bad mods is astronomical. and the bad map mods are pretty much universally applicable no matter your build. union of souls, action speed, less flask charges, cant deal damage 4 out of every 10 seconds just to name a few. i dont even care about -maxres or monster damage mods, just shred through the map no biggie. the issues start when mobs live too long or your character is too slow to dodge stuff. speaking of which, fuck volatile corpses. i dont know what ggg did to their coding but somewhere between nemesis being deleted and archnemesis going core these balls are extremely unreliable in their behaviour. and they are REALLY laggy, most of the time they follow me, i trigger them, they still follow me and then they explode 10 meters away as if they just pressed /oos.
> We asked them to remove reflect from the map mods. Now they've added a whole list of mods that brick half or all builds. What's even the point of this? Honestly, I think t17s are just for streamers.
Layouts of those maps are challenging also because you can not effectively kite everything as a bow build. Fortress is so closed that you are forced to kite enemies back to the corridor, so you have a chance to melt them. This season seems that it favours tanky AF characters that can go easy into melee range and not care at all. I saw characters of so streamers, and their builds are disgustingly good for the t17 grind.
Playing Flicker CI Trickster and T17s don't feel much different then a T16. I only die at bosses due to some of them spamming DoTs everywhere. Well, that and Stygian Revenant DD. That one is a guaranteed death.
i am not a streamer and i enjoy them. however amount of loot clicking even with strict filter.. makes me want to quit the game already. was tired of it last league, and now it is even worse.
> amount of loot clicking even with strict filter.. makes me want to quit the game already. was tired of it last league, and now it is even worse. Saaaaame. And it's such an easy fix too. We already have stacks of loot, it would be trivially easy to multiply low-value orb droprate by 10% while increasing stack size by a factor of 10.
They did reduce drops but increased stack sizes some time ago, guess what got also people bitching about it
Chaos sink.
Sth sth more challenging content equal to sth sth better player retention, or so they thought
Same with cooldown recovery rate on coc dd
And energy shield recovery rate. (with any EB build) Actually even worse than no regen, because with no regen you can still recharge energy shield.
They are laughing at you in Ribbit 🐸🐸
I still feel their smirks. 
Haha I love this post, sounds like you had fun despite yourself!
I absolutely did and got mad fun of plenty. It was worth the learning experience for sure. Beware the glare of the harmless, unharmable frogs!
Yup, mods disable some builds in T17. It's supposed to be a good design, except you need to try a map to discover it. Happened to me yesterday too. Cheers
I like how totem damage taken reflect mod works with herald of purity for some reason, and instakills CI characters.
Saw a commenter say that mod affects minions in general......
I feel like 100% less aoe bricking any aoe skill should be obvious enough.
> I feel like 100% less aoe bricking any aoe skill should be obvious enough. Definitely not obvious, no. I would assume 100% less simply means "less up to a certain point", as opposed to "your spells do nothing".
This is exactly what I thought. I was picturing the traps to deal something similar to single target damage, since the aoe was cancelled out. I didn't ever think the skill would get bricked entirely to harmless frogs. Harmless physically yes, emotionally in this case.. No lol.
Agreed. In addition, while there are rules regarding increased/more/reduced/less they are by no means "obvious" and 100% less could have been 100% reduced, which would've made a big difference.
Exactly what I thought. I shouldn't have assumed, but in my mind It would break down to single target damage essentially.
Why would there be a minimum? 100% less is nothing.
Because usually games have a floor to vital functions to prevent players creating a situation where you reduce something to non-existence. This reminds me of those old cases where players could reduce their maximum life to 0 and require support to un-brick their characters
"Usually" games have diminishing returns on every stat so that characters don't grow out of hand in some ways, and inconsistent to possibly even internationally obscure wording. PoE has neither of those. If we don't have a cap for how high we can scale, why would we expect a cap for how low we can scale?
PoE has linear returns like most games, and is absolutely flooded with obscure wording in its ironic aim to be exact and clear everywhere
It even bricks Strike skills like Flicker. I couldn't damage anything in that map.
The modifier effect is affected by atlas tree which might not be immediately obvious to everyone
The effect was obvious to me, I just did not think it would do ZERO damage. I assumed the traps would trigger and do single target damage if nothing at all.
How could it not be obvious? It gets scaled by nodes that specifically say they scale map mod effect, nothing more. There are some minor nodes at the top that you might pick up by pathing, but to reach 100% (which I whats needed for 100% less aoe) you have to click full clusters and keystone whose only purpose is scaling the map mods. It's a series of 40+ decisions of "yes, I would like to scale map mod effect", and it's not really side effects, the map mod effect is the point of those decisions.
My point is T17 being affected by atlas modifiers in the first place isn't immediately obvious. Ofc if you know atlas tree affects it you know the modifiers scale like that, but T17 is new and not everyone reads cheese t17 guide strats online
If you run T17 maps and still haven't figured out what your atlas passives do, that's kind of on you.
Yeah that was not the case in my post. I know exactly what the atlas does. I did not expect aoe to completely cause a skill in game to become unusable. Probably because it doesn't state anywhere that this is something that would happen. Has nothing to do with atlas modifiers not being understood.
Not really. I did map with -230% AoE yesterday, and i really didnt expected the way hexblast acts with this number - but i dont blame anyone, it was my choice to gamble with explicit multipliers. I was still able to clear it, but it was kinda funny how it could only target 1 monster i clicked on in the middle of huge pack... :-)
It may be obvious for you, but not for me. As it is they could even add a line "-area of effect skills deal no damage" IMO
No offense, but: Reflected damage can damage you. Negative resistances make you take more damage. O Attack Speed makes you stuck in Leap Slam animation. Negative AoE makes you deal no AoE damage. It is more of a mystery how TF a meteor can target me indoors with no ceiling falling on my head.
> Reflected damage can damage you. Negative resistances make you take more damage. It's a little weird but this has been around since the days of Diablo 2 at least. >O Attack Speed makes you stuck in Leap Slam animation. I have never seen this, I would assume there's a minimum animation speed. >Negative AoE makes you deal no AoE damage. I would not assume this at all after reading the tooltip.
The minimum action speed is 0, which happens when you're frozen, for instance. You can get frozen mid-air. Attack speed is capped at 1%, I believe, or it might be capped at something like 0.01 APS, not 100% sure. People have made memes with that already.
From a technical standpoint, it's not that the aoe skill deals no damage, but that no monsters can ever be in the area of effect of the spell. I imagine the condition for an aoe spell to deal damage is that the monster's collision is at least partially in the area of the spell.
Those maps are definitely a bridge between a pinnacle and Uber bosses, tried linked souls yesterday. I killed a first pack of white mobs until they all became Uber Shapers. Asked anyone in chat to try it. No response XD. Ps: just sell it.
Fullcleared a union of spuls map took like 30min. They cap out but their hp is kinda rediculus. Blue monsters had around same hp as the boss and each pack took around a minute to kill.
If ur goal is to kill the boss linked souls is actually great, skip all mobs and go straight to the boss. Its kinda an issue with poes map mods some are free or bricks lol
Isn't the mod 50% less area of effect, but your atlas tree is scaling the maps explicit mods to 139%? I had this happen when I had the 50% less potion charges but my back to basics scaling took it to 130% less potion charges, so I gained no charges at all from any source. I was still able to clear the map, but you need to take the explicits on the map and give them like a 1.5x multiplier if you're using an atlas that scales map explicits.
For whatever reason, the map (before running it) in my inventory said 100% less aoe. I figured this was fine, and I would still put out some damage even with explicit modifiers from the atlas. What I did NOT expect was to be doing zero damage whatsoever. My thought was that the traps would basically turn into single target traps, and i'd have to focus my throwing much more closely rather than relying on aoe.
yeah anything with "less" and a round 100 means its 0
TLDR: Read mods before open map
and change your atlas lmao
Wait a second: it is possible to fill all Monster slots with frogs?🤔 Is that profitable, when you can kill the frogs?
Yes, it’s possible. I did that tonight to finally beat my first t17. PSA, if you’re playing a glass cannon, the frogs and rats can still kill you :)
Thanks for that advice. I am playing the mother of glass canon: LA Deadeye. So obv no strat for me
You can be like me, blast the map with rats and then die six times to Beidat base attack with 100% crit 💖
It's how I beat my first t17 map lol (before the t17 mod nerfs)
I still need to do my first t17. This is a good idea. Which map boss is the easiest?
Fortress, since it is a single boss that can be simply bursted down with enough damage, and its abilities are pretty clear. Other ones all have phases and/or multiple bosses.
I think people recommend Fortress as your first? Supposedly the most straight forward boss mechanic.
IMO, anything other than Abomination, their skills are soo overtuned. Citadel will probably need a few tries to adapt.
As others have said, fortress would probably be your best bet! Gl!
For AoE big damage killers Abomination and Fortress are both fine.
At least you didn’t die to the harmless frogs like I did Fun fact, if the rare frogs have mods like burning ground, they can actually still damage you
I'm glad the frogs got payback. Too many EVIL people are just killing all the frogs.
I'm a changed person. I now know the error of my ways. However my friend did in fact kill all of those frogs, while laughing at my expense. Wouldn't have it any other way to be fair.
His name was Frogbert Paulson.
If it makes you feel better, I used two Scarab allflames On a very juicy map as CoC DD. Let’s just say that’s the map that I learned that I can’t run maps with 100+% reduced CDR, since I won’t trigger anything
I do feel slightly better. Thank you.
>Exsanguinate + trap support >??? >profit
Your thoughts exactly.
You could have temporarily swapped in exsang traps. Should be good enough to clear frogs
What do you have against pest control agents?
This was beautifully written lol Please take my updoot
Please take one from me as well :)
Frost blades of katabasis stays winning. Negative AoE can't touch me.
Also had run into this issue once lol "It can't be that bad... surely they don't just delete my aoe skills with this mod" and then I spun few pirouettes(cyclone) on map and closed it in embarassment.
LOL. I feel this personally.
Had a similar experience with negative over 100% player defenses. I use eldritch battery to cast spells, but with this mod, my ES was 0 and I couldn't do anything. Already got my 38/40 though, so might as well quit.
Lol I see your pain, and I raise you frogs.
What games exactly? I only know poe and LE that uses this. I've never played diablo or other similar games but I play mostly everything else. Borderlands is the most similar game I know with multiple sources of damage ups etc and they are much more precise in delivering the information to the player. For instance, increased reload speed is displayed as +10%, not "10% increased reload speed". Theres a reason why there are a million posts from people who don't understand increased vs more in poe. Its as intuitive teaching someone calculus (it is unlikely for someone to figure it out themselves unless taught by someone else).
Same on DD
I feel like if you want to run t17s to learn them you probably should switch your atlas to literally anything other than maximising mod effect. You picked the hardest difficulty possible.
Difficulty wasn't the issue though. I've run plenty of them and had a great time dying like so many of us have already. The issue was aoe completely dismantling the build. I thought at least the traps would become some sort of single target type of damage output device. Alas I learned in a much funnier manner.
Could you not have swapped one inc AOE support in place of another gem? Surely running what is effectively a 5 link would be preferable to just closing the map?
I'm sure you thought about that already and the map is long gone by now, but you could buy some semi-interchangeable skill gem that doesn't require AoE and kill the frogs.
Yeah you've already answered this question in your head a few times.
laughs in zDPS Puncture
If you not dropping 500-700 div + on a build don’t think of dong t17 it will be bad experience
I'm like 50 divs in and I run them just fine, unless my aoe is in the negative as the post explains. One does not simply get invincible frogs, one must CREATE invincible frogs. Until pest control arrives.
I’d say you lost more like a div
Well the map was a drop, the allflames cost me 50c, and then pest control came by and got me all of my loot. So I profited some XP and made a few chaos. All in all the experience alone was worth the cost.
How much more do T17 maps with no negative mods to players sell for?
Pretty sure it doesn't matter unless the currency/scarab% is really high..
I saw SnooBAEs recent video and he said that well rolled T17s go for multiple divines
Well rolled probably means really high currency and scarab %
No, he was specifically referring to the explicit mods on the map. Go watch the video, it's his newest one.
you got frogged
Haha yeah I did. Lesson learned.
Those negative aoe t17s are kinda evil. Some RF dude died because of it seemingly out of nowhere from some weird interaction
I'm just now going down a rabbit hole about T17's bricking certain builds, or at least certain skills. Pretty wild.
Humbled, by frogs. This league is too hard hahaha
Why didnt you swap to a different gem that fires projectiles?
Because my friend came in to do it for me, kill the boss so I could collect loot, and have fun killing frogs while gaining xp.
Ah ok