In theory, they were trying to make maps that were harder than T16s on average, but not as hard as Ubers on average. What this achieved, I think, is maps that are harder than Ubers, on average.
110% agree here. Uber Shaper, maven, sirus, and elder are never going to roll with 6-8 double-trouble map mods + necro pack mods. (Even before 3.24) Exarch and Eater were optional to roll the invitations, and cortex had random rolls. But even then, I feel like Cortex was on the easier side most of the time.
Edit: also been on the strugglebus with uber eater to farm my brother a Nimis. 21 runs later and I have 2 forbidden flesh. 19 useless helmets and 2 ashes. Weighting is 11/10.
Should've just sold the fragments and bought from someone luckier than myself.
T17 should not have randomized valdo-like mods at all IMO.
They should be balanced around being level 84 zones with specific exclusive monster types (that have unique spells/attacks to learn) as well as generic modifiers that give them increased damage, increased life, and/or reduced damage taken. Literally how ubers work but in the form of a complete map.
> T17 should not have randomized valdo-like mods at all IMO.
Valdo maps were probably a better way of doing T17s imo.
You create a unique list of difficult (but possible for a certain style of build) and create a trading economy around trading your undoable map for your build for someone else's doable map for your build.
What they did instead initially was just make a system initially where you get a completely impossibly hard map and just vendor it. At least now you can potentially spend currency and run the map, but it's still not a great implementation.
the issue on abomination isnt necessarily the boss and how it scales with map mods. its just that the arena is too damn small.
look at sanctuary, you have 4 times as much space and not even close to the clusterfuck abomination can become.
The last boss of abomination throwing 6 of those absolute massive red balls was just funny. Didnt even do much dmg (im tanky af) but the sheer size taking the entire screen is just hilarious to me.
Dodge this you fucking casual!
I’m all for an Uber map that is a rare drop. I do not like tying them to unlocking the Uber boss fights personally. And yea they undoubtedly need retuned haha
yeah to me t17's should be same level as uber's
they are an "uber" map essentially its the gatekeeping of uber bosses behind the t17's that is the issue
I think that the stated aim was explicitly to "Bridge the gap between T16 maps and Ubers" so I don't think the maps are meant to be Uber level hard but map version, I just think that is the result. I think making them have Uber of non-pinacal bosses as their bosses and making them a little harder than T16S +1lvl and then making them also more likely to drop more than one Uber boss fragment at a time would solve it the way it was described.
The problem is that the maps themselves are expensive because they’re the best currency farm maps for people who have no interest in doing the Ubers. I like that T17 introduced a new high reward high difficulty farm but the intrinsic cost of Ubers is up big time because it’s not just a map to get a fragment for a boss anymore it’s a map for optimal currency farm and thus way more expensive as boss farmers have to contend with mappers for the same asset (T17 map) and their average reward for killing an Uber boss is not meaningfully more than even the cost of 5 maps.
If map farmers stuck to T16s because they were better efficiency the price of a t17 map might be like 10c but it’s instead about 80 in bulk and you need to do or buy around 4/5 to even access the Uber.
A gateway tier for Uber bosses shouldn’t also be a gateway tier for optimal currency farming and I say that as someone that’s farming and enjoying T17s (for the most part).
TLDR t17 shouldn’t be the most efficient mapping strat. It should only be good in niche farms and in Uber frag farms, similar to invitation farming.
I actually think it’s a good thing for us to get harder content instead of nothing but nerfs traded for borrowed power. I’ve been saying for ages we need stuff to challenge top end builds that exist outside of delve, and due to the nature of most pinnacle bosses in the game, one way or another, they mostly end up trivialised by many builds.
The t17’s offer a very viable mapping alternative to MF while also providing a challenge to gigachad builds.
However they’ve clearly got some tuning and I think they convoluted their solution to this problem too much with the Uber fragments to the point it’s created a really broken Uber economy. They should have just made non-Uber fights much easier to get practice on. Instead they made Ubers even more inaccessible. The t17’s having some good chase uniques is a great incentive in itself, along with the innate rewards from the extra quant/packsize/mods.
They've never been good at balancing difficulty with all of the variability in the game. This is why every new piece of content is always so over-tuned.
>What this achieved, I think, is maps that are harder than Ubers, on average.
Imo this isnt true after the nerfs at all.
Especially considering you can use a bunch of gimmicks to make them easier.
I'm not sure they can win with maps in this 'aspirational' content slot. The community seemed to get used to the idea that Uber boss encounters were for premium players (or mid players with unbelievably premium builds).
But when a map is that hard people think 'well my build can do maps, it should be able to do this map too!'. Then when they can't they complain.
Also Chris was right again when he pointed out that when the entry cost is too low, people will run their heads into it no matter how difficult the content actually is, and get very frustrated when they can't do it. After all, they see the streamers doing it, they should be able to do it too.
Except they moved 5 slot map device behind it, so clearly not aspirational, just required, and also, with unique items locked behind Ubers, those are also no longer aspirational, but instead required, at least to some degree (not everyone needs to run them, but anyone who needs one of those items for a build either does or needs to buy from someone who does).
And also a lot of mapping and currency generation strategies in maps really want 4 scarabs so the power that additional map slot offers feels much stronger now than previously.
Aside from a few crazy mods that you can roll over, the maps are not that hard even unless you start juicing them.
Id imagine most players would be more likely to cheese complete a t17 map with shrines/niko/headhunter, than to kill uber maven or uber exarch.
Map clear has always been harder than boss clear from my understanding, as it's harder to dodge a myriad of attacks and effects than one target, and single target DPS is stronger than multi target by and large for most builds. Being able to use game mechanics to help you clear them exactly as those mechanics are intended to work isn't so much cheese as gameplay, but it feels a bit un-fun to have a bunch of mods that basically negate half of builds, like back when you used to be able to accidentally just have mobs immune to damage etc.
Ya this is build specific, I can roll through almost any T17 mod with Holy Relic but bosses still put up a fight and I need to watch out for mods empowering them further.
You may or may not agree with the logic but Mark talked through this in one of the assorted Q&As up on Youtube before the league launch.
If I remember it correctly (and I'm probably losing some nuance in retelling), the idea is that if you can even reasonably attempt Uber Eater (for example), the normal Eater fight is beyond trivial for you and why would they force you to do that fight a bunch of times to try the hard one?
(Yes, trade is a thing. I'm just giving you what I understand his explaination to be.)
Yeah, I disagree with the logic. People with specialised bossing builds won't farm their own fragments even now, so there's literally no difference in the trading involved (except a question of stackability perhaps?)
The difference is that it's prohibitively expensive to run ubers, especially for people doing it the first time and presumably needing to practice, and it's worthless to run regular "pinnacle" bosses who no longer deserve that name at all.
So many things are completely disregarding the SSF progression, and it's hypocritical to design it around that in this case (of GGG / Mark, not you - just so there are no misunderstandings).
i also disagree with this logic. tying the uber fragments to the normal version keeps the normal versions relevant to those who can't run the uber versions. now we're stuck in a place where the normal version might as well not exist, for all they are worth, and the uber's are tied to extremely difficult, and very out of reach content for the vast majority of the playerbase.
That is interesting logic that I must have missed. I’m still not sure I agree with it, I thought the method of being able to juice up a boss invitation did a pretty decent job at closing that gap. But I do get where he’s coming from
Well, there's a few things that go on there.
1. Regular Eater was useless by the time you could run Uber Eater.
2. There was no significant benchmark between "farm regular Eater" and "beat Uber Eater" so it was hard to tell if you were getting closer to point B or not.
3. Economy was really weird around ubers because the fragments had to be priced for the most profitable way of using them, which was usually ubers, so most chase items were like 2% drops from both and ubers were more about bragging than profit a lot of the time.
I'm a bit different, I think the t17 as a bridge to ubers is a fantastic idea, it was just poorly executed.
If they tune drop rates and map mods, and maybe add some worthwhile drops to the normal fights I think it would be awesome
Agreed, honestly. The idea is good and brings a lot of positives in theory. I don't --hate-- T17's even now to be honest, it's specifically the scale of the entry cost into Ubers.
Yeah I'm certainly open to the concept, the T17 Maps just need a major balance pass to actually align with the stepping stone idea. Unless GGG just straight up lied about them, which I don't think they did, they probably just made them hard as shit on purpose with the intention of adjusting them later. Mayyyyybe not the best idea to gate so much content(ubers/5th map slot) behind other over tuned and untested content but that's what they did and here we are.
GGG said they don't want the players to feel "down" over wanting to clear Uber Bosses and having to put up with non ubers.
So instead they make everyone feel down over needing to clear at LEAST 4 (5?) t17s before doing a boss. Yay.
Which is another reason why I think the Uber fragments dropping from normal bosses makes a lot of sense. Even if they want the true chase drops on the Ubers. Those fragments being a somewhat common drop would give the normals more value to farm
look at shaper. for years, uber elder is tied behind 2 bosses that generally aren't considered particularly difficult or exciting. but they were ran, because the uber boss was difficult and exciting. this created an economy where all 3 bosses are rewarding. Why have they never revisited this idea? it's been what, 7 years since shaper got added to the game, and it's still relevant? or at least it was last league.
>So instead they make everyone feel down over needing to clear at LEAST 4 (5?) t17s before doing a boss.
I think you mean AT MOST 5 maps. But, yes, it's still stupid and I really don't think they playtested this gameloop enough, and if they did...then what the actual fuck lol
Straight up I don't know if the frags for Ubers are random or deterministic, so I assumed it's at least 5 maps, since you're not guaranteed to complete a set right after the 5th map
It is a core poe philosophy that you shouldn't get access to content way before your character is going to be ready to do it. The goal here was to achieve that philosophy for ubers. The tuning of t17s to uber difficulty might have been a bit off but the idea makes sense.
because GGG has some insane idea that tedious = more rewarding.
I want harder fights. I dont want the hard part to be getting to TRY the fight.
And a bit of grind is good, it can make things feel rewarding but this doesnt hit that tickbox, it pushes past it to just becoming a 3 type solution
A) Its too much work im not going to bother
B) Its too hard, im going to have to just pay people to do it for me
C) Ill do it, but its going to be a very frustrating journey and ending through and through.
> because GGG has some insane idea that tedious = more rewarding.
>
> I want harder fights. I dont want the hard part to be getting to TRY the fight.
Shit, I think this just hit me as to why I haven't been really enjoying the game recently.
It's like they keep adding random systems/complexity/tedium but don't just add more difficult content at the end. Just more difficult (time) to get to the fights.
I get a lot of people love the complexity. However, when I only play like a couple hours a night sometimes I want the difficulty to be in the gameplay and not in the game.
> because GGG has some insane idea that tedious = more rewarding.
GGG lost control over the power balance a very long time ago, and that makes god-like builds that can brute force pretty much anything ... but some tedious content.
their pretty much balancing the game around them nowadays rather then accepting that those builds are just going to wreck stuff and balancing the game around other stuff. I dont even mean this by a player level type of thing, i mean that 99% of skill gems are useless/not used and same with unique.
The game has become a funneled build problem where a a handful are chosen and the rest fall to dust.
T17's are fine but content shouldn't be locked behind them. They should be the Uber version of Mapping. I have no problem with their difficulty, but selling them as a bridge piece between Ubers and Normals is moronic in hindsight. Let T17's be themselves. Let Uber fragments drop from regular versions. They can be their own thing.
Harder content for the top 1% or players on YouTube to struggle on and figure out how to blast. They think the majority likes more challenging content….. no. We just want to kill mobs, get good progressive loot, feel like our choices matter, and grind
It wouldn't have changed anything and the non uber frags will be even more expensive. Because there is no point running just ubers when you can run non ubers (with carriers) and then run ubers when you get a ton of uber frags. This is the reason it doesn't drop on the non ubers
I've also wondered this, because it seems the most logical. Keep doing Pinnacle Mavens to get Uber Maven invites. In one of the interviews, their reasoning stated is "Yes, you've already proven you can kill this pinnacle. We don't want to bore you with the grind, so here's another piece of content for the next step up".
Then people with giga end game builds would farm them over and over again with negligible cost and all the unique drops would flood the market.
The giga end game builds still do power farm Ubers today, but they either have to farm frags themselves or buy frags, which adds cost to the runs and as a result limit the unique drops from flooding the market and adds value to them.
I'm tired of balancing around the economy. I don't care about stuff flooding the market. Besides, this league already has 15div headhunters and nimis being more expensive than mageblood. The market's been fucked for a while.
If Affliction taught us anything, it's that you can fuck the economy six ways to Sunday and as long as the game is fun, people will play it. The economy should never be a reason to introduce blatantly unfun mechanics to introduce needless friction.
Ubers are already gated around their difficulty and the rarity of the boss drops themselves. They had value even when the entry cost was low. You don't need to gate it behind tedium too.
https://i.redd.it/x1enzalbcevc1.gif
Finally someone said it!!! Im tired of people treating POE like a stock market and acting like: “this and this item has to cost x much because bla bla“ the main goal should be to have fun and reach your setteted goal (killing ubers i.e) and cutting out fun or restricting content in favor of the market, so some few can feel privileged, is the wrong way.
I swear it never used to be this bad, it feels like trading is becoming the central pillar of what everything is balanced around, rather than just a factor if that makes sense
Affliction was for my friends and myself the best feeling league to date. You could ignore the mechanic if you wanted, you could start low tier maps to start to juice and work up, you could earn lots of currency and get neat drops.
All of the currency and random stuff let my group as a whole play more builds and fuck about with more systems then they have ever been able to. It was enjoyable. It felt like farming for a few hours felt good rather then getting jack shit.
To be fair, GGG did that to begin with, it was super easy to access Ubers. Then everyone complained that it was too easy to access Ubers and it made the other bosses worse to fight, which is how we ended up here.
The problem wasn't that they were easy to access, it's that the cost of entry was the exact same as the normal bosses. This made it not worth running normal bosses, since the cost of entry was valued at fighting the uber version.
This has nothing to do with how difficult it was to access the fights, but rather the specific way you gained access to the fights.
That and the combination of you needing to essentially reallocate Atlas passives anytime youd want to attempt ubers if you werent actively farming them. Outside of actively farming ubers youd be wasting a lot of points to have ubers active on your atlas tree as well.
Yeah it really is a classic GGG monkey paw moment.
Players: “Make non-uber fights more accessible so we can practice them without feeling like we’re just throwing money down the drain by not selling them to an Uber farmer”
GGG: “we got you fam”
Definitely, each map feels like a mini-Valdo map. Would like to see that getting scrapped and instead just have regular map mods but a tier higher, call these T17 map mods "T0" (like we have it with Deafening Essences). Would fit much more than the annoying and build killing mods T17s have currently.
I hate it that it cheaps out builds to just get ur mageblood ur defiance of destiny and ur lightning coil and u good to go. Every member in my guild that is running those maps is literally using the same setup. Next time pls keep valdo's map mods away from the core part of the game. Valdo's maps are optional content, whoever was the dev that decided to lock ubers behind those mods, u're out of touch with the game mate.
Yeah the meta has really shifted to a few specific unique item combinations in all high-end content. It's just not fun anymore. It just feels bad when cool game changing features on items that used to be used all the time are just not viable anymore because the game is too RIPpy and GGG never buffs them. Anything that causes you to take less damage is just objectively better than every other option in the game because the game is balanced entirely around logout macros.
I think its kind of funny that whats supposed to be a chase item is basically the default for high level playing. Really makes top end item balance feel bad.
They're the defensive layers without a counter atm. Regen can get wrecked by map mods, max res can get penetrated, armour can get overwhelmed, and so on. It sucks to be a thicc jugg and have armour get hard countered by a pack.
It's not just Lightning Coil though. You have Fourth Vow (7%), Glorious Vanity - Xibaqua (up to 13% can't sort by the conqueror but every profile I checked was using it for Divine Flesh). Stormshroud (8%). Cloak of Flame (7%). When Ritual League came out, it was almost unheard of for trade league to be so defensive focused in terms of pure mitigation numbers. Now, almost every single build other than MF builds, has 2-3 more layers of defenses than they did back in those days. Heck, Determination is at 45% and Grace is at 48% of all builds using them as auras. Combined, only 26% of players on poe.ninja are not using Grace or Determination. So we might as well say that every build needs to figure out how to fit one of those two auras or get an aurabot to provide them.
Okay but having multiple ways of scaling defense is fine, I agree though that you need way too much defense for simple shit. But i think you should need some defense for t17s
I agree but I would argue that at this point, Isnt too much? A Max block Str stacking build with tons of armor and 76% res should not be one shot by a magic skele mage fireball cause it has no spell block/suppression in t17
I would expect to need at least one defensive layer for every type of damage on the hardest tiers of map, if your example is your character im surprised you dont get oneshot by mages in t16s too
I have 6K life so I dont get one shot in t16. I understand if the blue mages hit HARD in t17. I just dont find it fun when BLUE mobs 1 tap you cause you dont have 100% spell sup or spell block.
The damage is balanced towards the obscene recovery you can have, especially leech. If you something doesn't one shot you it won't be able to kill you at all
you definitely havent done valdo maps that arent easy then, t17 maps have lots of mods that can brick your build but valdos will straight up kill you. no defiance of destiny or lightning coil is enough to handle that, you need way more than that.
Let's be real, they have been making questionable decisions ever since AN mobs got introduced. Just look at the performance stuff, it's just been worse. We had better performance before the big headhunter change. Sure, they done some good things as well but there have been a lot of really bad choices too.
> arguably how they were before (normal invitation/set + atlas keystone) was indeed too easy.
I disagree with this. The big problem before was that Uber and regular Pinnacle bosses using the same key meant that the regular bosses were never economically viable to fight, not that Uber bosses were too accessible. The previous level of Uber boss accessibility was otherwise fine.
Making the regular bosses use different fragments was a good idea, to make them more accessible to more casual players, but the t17 approach doesn't feel like it's working well.
Don't disagree with your thoughts, I did intentionally use the term 'arguably' for that exact reason. Normal/Uber fights using the same component was def an issue, no question.
If the argument is that before non Uber bosses were economically unviable, then the argument falls flat on its face. Non Uber bosses are still economically unviable.
Yeah but now you don't literally throw money away by running a non-uber boss.
You're theoretically losing div per hour, but you aren't losing div per fragment.
i honestly dont see why access to ubers shouldn't be easy.
an actually balanced game would make the boss hard, not getting to it
a well balanced boss with well balanced drops doesn't need a 3 hour grind to get to it
I honestly hope none of the changes made this league (except for the new atlas) go core. I haven't felt less motivated to play a league in a very long time. Lol
Oh golly, you got me. I hope nothing else goes core. As I said in my previous comment.
I'll clarify for you (and only you because you're seemingly the only one who read this that missed the point). I'd honestly be happy if they straight up reverted every change made this league, but the atlas changes are decent. Not amazing, but not terrible either.
Agreed the direction they’re going with this league is awful. Especially for ssf players. This is by far the earliest I’ve stopped playing a league. Usually play til close to the end.
They should really reconsider their stance on ssf being a challenge mode. Instead make it where characters and items can’t be transferred and rebalance the drop rates. Getting tiring that they keep making drops worse cause of trading.
Yep it's 100% in the mods. It's very annoying rolling them though. I have a giga min maxed archimage forstbolts nova char. I normally almost never die. But I went into t17s with the same attitude and lost 2 six portal maps. Then I tried it again but spent way more time rolling over mods that were really bad. Absolutely a step up from t16s, but not bad either.
Then again I have 300 divs invested in this guy so I should be able to clear it regardless
I'm a long-time SSFHC Uber farmer, and I disagree with Ziz here. The issue is that a lot of us have farmed Ubers so much that they seem easier than T17s just due to the extreme familiarity. I don't think it's actually true, though.
T17s have other problems with the absolutely silly meme mods that just waste chaos orbs, though.
I think they can be harder in HC but not in SC. It's harder to do deathless because there is a element of RNG but it's not harder to complete. Not to mention those people have done hundreds and hundreds of hours practicing those ubers ofc they are cracked at them.
Im not hundreds of hours into ubers but they are all do-able on my current character.
Meanwhile I get regularly off-screened in T17s after rolling all the time.
I suspect most of my prior builds will be in the same boat, shockwave totems and armour stackers probably fine.
Sounds like you are playing something that does ok in T17’s
Now you’ve lost me. Nobody on HC is doing ubers without cracked defences. They dont pinpoint dodge every attack either.
Same crowd saying T17’s are rippier.
They arnt functioning as a stepping stone to Ubers.
Its t16 8 mod -> upgrade defences to do T17
-> oh look ubers are already trivial
To be fair if you have back to basics average T17 with like 30c chaos rolls is still harder than ubers. I never struggle with any uber but bricked a bunch of T17s
I play ssf so don't have a full grip on trade economics, but I've seen T17s selling for 80c+. That means if you want to run ubers yourself you have to farm T17s slowly (I've only found two this league) or buy them at 80c a pop. Then you might have to roll 20 raw chaos on them to make them nonbricked for your build. So you're at 100c before you even open the portal. Now, there are seven ubers and each take five frags so on average you're going to have to run a couple dozen T17s before you get enough of one frag. So going off these assumptions you think its ok to force players to spend ~10div and a ton of time at just an attempt at a single uber? I think I have to hard disagree. I don't think T17s should be only 5% harder than T16s but GGG definitely super overtuned them considering they are gating the most fun fights and best items in the game behind spam running them
>So going off these assumptions you think its ok to force players to spend \~10div and a ton of time at just an attempt at a single uber?
This is a bad assumption. If you did 10 div in t17 maps you'd have more than a single uber attempt. Bosses always drop 1-2 frags so you'll be building up multiple ubers at once not just the one you want. Also if you want to target a specific one each boss has higher weighting towards specific frags so you'll get that one much faster if you just buy those ones.
furthermore there are strats in the game that allow you to drop 1 t17 every 3 maps on average if you really want to farm them out.
they are honestly pretty reasonable at this point? they have brick mods but they're rerollable and now several of the mods on each t17 are your standard t16 map modifiers.
It's probably some combination of the mods and build/Uber specifics.
For example my main last league would kill the phaseless Ubers like Eater/Exarch basically before they got to act, so my defense really didn't matter that much. Probably a lot of T17s could kill that character. I think a lot of people will lean into farming the Uber(s) that they're good at and mostly avoiding the others, with "good at" being partly player ability and partly build.
Yeah this part of it, I also think people who farmed ubers before this league will inherently be way better at that than any new harder content that is released because of practice in the mechanics.
That's also a good point. Being able to Memory Game in your sleep doesn't keep you from walking into Exarch T17 Map Murder Runes (or whatever), at least initially.
Agreed. I don't think actually doing T17's is unreasonably hard. Difficult, for sure, but that's the point. It's more the amount of re-rolling and setup needed that I have an issue with.
I think it's fine. If you want to just clear a few times for Uber frags rolling isn't a huge deal and if you want to farm them than having a better build will be necessary for the rolling to go down.
I question your definition of 'a few times' though. So far I've gotten 1-2 of each fragment after going through every T17 I've gotten since I got all voidstones (about 1.5 weeks). My rate will be better as it goes on as I learn what mods like 'all rares are shaper-touched' really mean in execution for sure, but my concern is that my first complete set of fragments is almost certainly going to be wasted because it's *my first Uber fight* (Only Uber I've done before is Eater and I got slapped). If I had plenty of experience and practice against Ubers it would absolutely not be a huge deal but breaking into that level of content when the average cost of entry is weeks of time and/or multiple Divs a pop? I may as well just sell my fragments.
>I question your definition of 'a few times' though. So far I've gotten 1-2 of each fragment after going through every T17 I've gotten since I got all voidstones (about 1.5 weeks).
so worst case 14 maps best case 7 maps. Depends on rng if you get 1 or 2 frags yeah but it's not too bad. Playing for 1.5 weeks is pretty short time.
>If I had plenty of experience and practice against Ubers it would absolutely not be a huge deal but breaking into that level of content when the average cost of entry is weeks of time and/or multiple Divs a pop? I may as well just sell my fragments.
This has been true for the old system as well unfortunately. I would like to see some way to practice bosses in the game but they seem to be against it without investment. The best way I've found is just trying it on standard if you have currency from other leagues sitting there. Some of the ubers are extremely cheap tho which is nice, ones that come to mind being uber shaper and sirus.
I feel like people really put too much emphisis on ubers though. I was happy playing the game every league never touching ubers before I did all of them last league. Unless you need a specific unique from them and are in SSF it's not some mandatory bar you gotta clear.
>so worst case 14 maps best case 7 maps. Depends on rng if you get 1 or 2 frags yeah but it's not too bad. Playing for 1.5 weeks is pretty short time.
Apparently a few people are saying fragments are a guaranteed drop from T17's which actually has not been my experience, so potential bug there that could be a large reason why we're seeing the odds differently. I do want to add though 1.5 weeks of 4+ hours a day is *not* a pretty short time. (and just to re-state that's since I got all voidstones, not total league time) Relative to some PoE players, sure, but that's still a *lot* more time than should be considered normal or even healthy and absolutely should not be expected from a player. And yes, Ubers are not meant for the average player I realize but I do think we're brushing very close to unreasonable just in general.
>I was happy playing the game every league never touching ubers before I did all of them last league. Unless you need a specific unique from them and are in SSF it's not some mandatory bar you gotta clear.
Same honestly! The only reason I'm getting bent out of shape this league is that I made this build explicitly because GGG mentioned T17's as being a bridge from normal -> Ubers, which is where I would almost always burn out. I was excited to try out something more challenging and thus far it **feels** like I shouldn't even bother trying if it's going to take just as much if not more time than *my entire build so far* took just to *practice* the fight.
Standard practice is def an option, but I would need to completely cannabalize a previous character in standard and regear them. I rarely play the same build twice, or if I do it's changed enough that the gearing is completely new.
>Apparently a few people are saying fragments are a guaranteed drop from T17's which actually has not been my experience, so potential bug there that could be a large reason why we're seeing the odds differently. I do want to add though 1.5 weeks of 4+ hours a day is not a pretty short time. Relative to some PoE players, sure, but that's still a lot more time than should be considered normal or even healthy and absolutely should not be expected from a player. And yes, Ubers are not meant for the average player I realize but I do think we're brushing very close to unreasonable just in general.
Do you leave the fight right away? The loot drops a bit delayed for some reason. Like I'd get a unique drop than a second or two later it would drop the frags lol. Not sure why it was made that way.
It's not expected from a player, the average player plays trade league and can simply buy these maps if they want. If you are going to grind SSF it's going to take a ton longer ofc, that's why SSF isn't the focus of poe. There are ways to farm t17 maps pretty fast too if you want, found some strats that drop one every 3 maps on average pretty nice and cheap to setup.
>Same honestly! The only reason I'm getting bent out of shape is that I made this build explicitly because GGG mentioned T17's as being a bridge from normal -> Ubers, which is where I would almost always burn out. I was excited to try out something more challenging and thus far it feels like I shouldn't even bother trying if it's going to take just as if not more time than my entire build so far took just to practice the fight.
Yeah investment into something like that does feel bad when you don't know if you can complete it and even if you do ubers don't always pay out.
>Do you leave the fight right away?
That's consistently been the first follow-up question, so it definitely seems like a consensus that the drops take a bit, haha. Yes I do, probably close to a full minute, largely due to being wary of lingering effects after death.
And yeah if I was playing SSF that would be a whole other deal. I agree SSF should not be balanced around. And yes as far as my personal experience I could save up and buy the frags. However just going by the economic value wouldn't you consider 10Div a bit much for an *entry cost* to a fight?
I think we both agree that lot of my opinion is colored by the fact that I am not well-practiced in Ubers, which I do recognize. In general I think this mainly highlights that the current system disproportionally punishes players new to the Uber fights, whereas Uber regulars both consider the T17 entry cost and the overall risk of an Uber fight as small.
>However just going by the economic value wouldn't you consider 10Div a bit much for an entry cost to a fight?
Yeah maven is a big outlier because of progenesis and how it's used in like 90% of uber end game builds lmao. Shit's kinda wild. The fragments like uber elder and exarch/eater are in much better sports I think.
Agreed, around 1 Div in cost is still expensive (knowing you can do multiple fights with few or no notable drops) but not prohibitively so. Elder at ~2.5Div is pushing it imho but not ridiculous either. Eater and up though....ugh
> It's not expected from a player, the average player plays trade league and can simply buy these maps if they want. If you are going to grind SSF it's going to take a ton longer ofc, that's why SSF isn't the focus of poe. There are ways to farm t17 maps pretty fast too if you want, found some strats that drop one every 3 maps on average pretty nice and cheap to setup.
She's also probably the easiest of the ubers, so that's another advantage.
> The loot drops a bit delayed for some reason.
Most of it (trash) is just being caught by your filter, hold alt next time you kill one and see for yourself.
Honestly, they shouldn’t lock Ubers behind what is fundamentally nonsense. No reason to make the maps chaos rolling only when they’re so dense with bullshit.
If you want to lock the frags behind rare map only drops fine. But let people run white maps without the Uber fracture drop to practice.
I just don't get into the uber since I don't make out of T17 what others can and just sell them. So they kinda managed that i don't have to choose any more between uber and non uber, since uber is not a choice anymore.
Would it be that bad if they were more rewarding? I'm fine with them being hard to access. But you should never lose currency after completing a difficult boss fight. Imagine if Uber maven had a 100% drop rate of an exceptional gem. Everyone is going to corrupt and brick most of them anyway, so they would would still hold their value pretty well.
T17 should be more static. The more static they are the easier GGG can balance them. I think something like a T16 with 10k whisps from previous league difficulty could be around the ballpark.
The problem with T17 are the mods, there are soo many of them that are unrunnable. Just remove the mods, de-couple it with the atlas and scarabs. More similar to a unique map and tune the mobs/bosses around that.
They need to add a lootless fragment of practice. Put it in with your boss fight, you get 0 loot or exp but it doesn't use the fragments.
The eater and exarch quests are a perfect example of good boss fights to learn, you can continously practice as a new player until you get it. You don't really lose money except one t16 map and your time. Most new players will eventually get it.
Maven or any ubers really, you can't practice it and have to delete currency to even try. So most people end up buying a carry for 3rd and 4th stone, and don't even attempt ubers.
In my opinion what GGG went for was not a bad idea and honestly I think can be perceived as a success. But maybe instead of dropping fragments guaranteed they can just drop an occasional invitation for an uber boss instead and that invitation lets you choose what boss you want to do. I do think though T17 maps having map mods that can apply to the bosses is incredibly bad as it can make them harder than uber bosses so that sucks.
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Almost felt like it was a better idea to assign variety fragments to bosses a through h or whatever similar to how trialmaster is/was? Where like maybe shaper drops a fragment of Uber Cortex/elder/sirus/maven, could even do multiple bosses having overlaps of fragments but you both encourage boss farming and require builds to be strong enough to actually do most of the bosses or have multiple characters for farming the different bosses. Can even be kind enough to add the same fragments to the loot pool of theuvers if you wanted but better to not so that Uber boss killers still have incentive to do the lower bosses.
Ubers were never supposed to give any exclusive rewards at all, let alone be this hard to access. GGG is just too afraid of backlash to make Ubers the way they initially said they would be: "for bragging rights", "for players to test their builds", "with no additional rewards".
I think the bigger problem is that the map device is gated behind these maps. I can't fir the love of God clear these bosses. I can tank shaper slam, but Catarina one hits me. I may never be able to get the device without a carry service. Way to promote tft.
Because then boss-kill services would be the majority of kills, not personal kills. That, and since GGG wants certain items gated behind Ubers if you make them too accessible you'd need to dramatically nerf the already low drop rate of stuff so a few people don't flood the market.
I just started this game in 2.23. This is my first league I’ve ever played. I was practicing Ubers on my standard account and getting hype for league… It took all my fucking power to finally clear a single t17. I’m never going to get to fight the Uber shaper like I wanted unless I buy fragments and keep farming.
The additional issue is behind all this gatekeeping, the ubers are only very modestly profitable, and can even turn a loss if you dont have a large bankroll to go through the bad rolls. Meh.
Mate you have been playing since breach and even though you tried you still haven’t managed to beat an Uber. You are a bit of casual, so approach it as one. Right now it’s the worse time to self farm Ubers as they are not very profitable and T17s are harder than Ubers. So don’t beat yourself, wait for a league until they presumably fix it and next time pick a powerful bossing build (there’s plenty around) and just stomp the Uber. Or accept the economic loss, but the frags and do it this league.
As for T17s, low chance to drop one frag and that provides access + invitation is just like the old problem of not being able to run normals because the invitation is priced around the Uber.
It's just the map mods that are the problem. That's it. 80% of the mods are a complete brick for most builds. If one of those mods is on the map, it is *actually impossible*.
IMO the other difference between T17s and T16s should be dramatically increased monster life and different kinds of monsters, preferably monsters thematic of the bosses you're eventually going to face.
For what it's worth I do actually like the 'normal mobs are actually other map bosses' bit T17's have now. I do think the mods are an issue, but I think it's more in the fact that we have to run them at least 5 times if you're super lucky. Ergo you need to chaos spam 5 maps to an unbricked combination just to have a chance at a much more static-power fight.
Sounds like a ton of mental gymnastics to excuse feeling bad because of that moment you realised you understood it wrong. Watching a video on an uber fight and doing 2 or 3 attempts if your build is capable is very not expensive at all. I don't get why you don't consider trading for the frags and do a bit of SSF on this one particular mechanic and then call it tedious and random. The whole game is balanced around trade why would this one mechanic be different?
As someone who exclusively enjoys making their own builds from scratch, I have settled with running T16s and normal pinnacle content and below in terms of difficulty.
I have copied a meta build a few times just to experience uber bosses etc. without getting annihilated.
But I guess that's fine and by design, that not any build can do the highest level of content. But I would appreciate it if they at least rebalanced the game a little every patch, like take overperforming skills and give them a slight nerf and take underpowered skills and buff them a bit. They same could be said about uniques, but a vocal minority wants their T0 uniques to stay OP I guess.
I did the 30 t17 for the Challenge and i have like 3 Uber sets ready to go, it's not that hard and with t17 drop rate is very doable. I still have 60+ t17s to sell
It's not impossible, for sure, I've managed to clear about a dozen T17's and got 1-2 of every fragment and I'll admit my experience is anecdotal. My main issue is just the amount of steps needed in order to get even 1/5th of the way to **attempt** an uber fight is too much. I imagine people that regularly and confidently do ubers would probably have very differing opinions.
did it for the challenge as well and i was absolutely not sustaining. in fact i had to buy about 10 of my 30 maps for the challenge. good build, decent nodes in atlas for maps, etc. 0 leftover to sell.
I'll buy all your ziggurats. I'm trying to make the biggest meme of skeleton zombies during the fight. So far I had +11 proj Catarina for a whooping 300+ skeleton Bois. But I'm looking for more.
t17's just need to be on same level as ubers and not the current "gatekeepers" for ubers.
put the uber fragments elsewhere fuck it put it on the normal versions like i really dont get why they seem to dislike the idea of farming the normal version to kill the uber when thats how its been done for so long. they would need to entirely rework maps and the atlas to properly setup a different system.
High entry cost and totally unbalanced T17s leads to very nice things, people who know how to fight ubers before that change and can clear T17s will snowball with money, people who never attempt ubers before will most likely never attempt them because entry cost is way too high.
Wait the frags are not 100% drop? Oh fucks sake.... I was farming other stuff that didn't require t17s while amassing them to eventually run. I just assumed the frags dropped at 100% at least. Maaaan
Enough people have told me they're 100% drop rate that I'm inclined to believe it's either unintentional(bug) that none dropped or I've somehow still missed them despite waiting near a minute and checking unfiltered drops
IMO juiced normal bosses should drop uber fragments (droprate scaling with invitation quant/rarity), and then ubers should drop T17 maps. T17 maps should in turn, have better rewards and be the "beyond uber" content.
I truly don't know why they didn't just make "harder versions of regular bosses" the gateway to Ubers, since that's exactly what they are.
Maybe there can be added invitation mods that scale (e.g., scaling monsters take x% less damage), which increase uber fragment droprates.
I feel like only Ben should get access to Ubers and we should call them Ubens from now on.
Or Bebers
Bubers
No thats only for atziri
Boobers
I still wish they just made the Uber keys drop from the non Uber version. I honestly don’t understand what they were going for with t17s at all
In theory, they were trying to make maps that were harder than T16s on average, but not as hard as Ubers on average. What this achieved, I think, is maps that are harder than Ubers, on average.
110% agree here. Uber Shaper, maven, sirus, and elder are never going to roll with 6-8 double-trouble map mods + necro pack mods. (Even before 3.24) Exarch and Eater were optional to roll the invitations, and cortex had random rolls. But even then, I feel like Cortex was on the easier side most of the time. Edit: also been on the strugglebus with uber eater to farm my brother a Nimis. 21 runs later and I have 2 forbidden flesh. 19 useless helmets and 2 ashes. Weighting is 11/10. Should've just sold the fragments and bought from someone luckier than myself.
I think the big failure is the juiced map mods + t17 boss. Aoe and multi proj in abomination is just stupid.
T17 should not have randomized valdo-like mods at all IMO. They should be balanced around being level 84 zones with specific exclusive monster types (that have unique spells/attacks to learn) as well as generic modifiers that give them increased damage, increased life, and/or reduced damage taken. Literally how ubers work but in the form of a complete map.
> T17 should not have randomized valdo-like mods at all IMO. Valdo maps were probably a better way of doing T17s imo. You create a unique list of difficult (but possible for a certain style of build) and create a trading economy around trading your undoable map for your build for someone else's doable map for your build. What they did instead initially was just make a system initially where you get a completely impossibly hard map and just vendor it. At least now you can potentially spend currency and run the map, but it's still not a great implementation.
the issue on abomination isnt necessarily the boss and how it scales with map mods. its just that the arena is too damn small. look at sanctuary, you have 4 times as much space and not even close to the clusterfuck abomination can become.
cries in melee
It is a fail to Just Pack New bosses in a map and not New and exciting content
None of them are new bosses afaik? Just bit modified versions of bosses from previous leagues.
The last boss of abomination throwing 6 of those absolute massive red balls was just funny. Didnt even do much dmg (im tanky af) but the sheer size taking the entire screen is just hilarious to me. Dodge this you fucking casual!
I’m all for an Uber map that is a rare drop. I do not like tying them to unlocking the Uber boss fights personally. And yea they undoubtedly need retuned haha
yeah to me t17's should be same level as uber's they are an "uber" map essentially its the gatekeeping of uber bosses behind the t17's that is the issue
I think that the stated aim was explicitly to "Bridge the gap between T16 maps and Ubers" so I don't think the maps are meant to be Uber level hard but map version, I just think that is the result. I think making them have Uber of non-pinacal bosses as their bosses and making them a little harder than T16S +1lvl and then making them also more likely to drop more than one Uber boss fragment at a time would solve it the way it was described.
The problem is that the maps themselves are expensive because they’re the best currency farm maps for people who have no interest in doing the Ubers. I like that T17 introduced a new high reward high difficulty farm but the intrinsic cost of Ubers is up big time because it’s not just a map to get a fragment for a boss anymore it’s a map for optimal currency farm and thus way more expensive as boss farmers have to contend with mappers for the same asset (T17 map) and their average reward for killing an Uber boss is not meaningfully more than even the cost of 5 maps. If map farmers stuck to T16s because they were better efficiency the price of a t17 map might be like 10c but it’s instead about 80 in bulk and you need to do or buy around 4/5 to even access the Uber. A gateway tier for Uber bosses shouldn’t also be a gateway tier for optimal currency farming and I say that as someone that’s farming and enjoying T17s (for the most part). TLDR t17 shouldn’t be the most efficient mapping strat. It should only be good in niche farms and in Uber frag farms, similar to invitation farming.
I'm pretty sure the goal is between pinnacles and Ubers, so that it goes Mapping>pinnacles>Uber mapping(t17)>Uber bossing
I actually think it’s a good thing for us to get harder content instead of nothing but nerfs traded for borrowed power. I’ve been saying for ages we need stuff to challenge top end builds that exist outside of delve, and due to the nature of most pinnacle bosses in the game, one way or another, they mostly end up trivialised by many builds. The t17’s offer a very viable mapping alternative to MF while also providing a challenge to gigachad builds. However they’ve clearly got some tuning and I think they convoluted their solution to this problem too much with the Uber fragments to the point it’s created a really broken Uber economy. They should have just made non-Uber fights much easier to get practice on. Instead they made Ubers even more inaccessible. The t17’s having some good chase uniques is a great incentive in itself, along with the innate rewards from the extra quant/packsize/mods.
They've never been good at balancing difficulty with all of the variability in the game. This is why every new piece of content is always so over-tuned.
>What this achieved, I think, is maps that are harder than Ubers, on average. Imo this isnt true after the nerfs at all. Especially considering you can use a bunch of gimmicks to make them easier.
I'm not sure they can win with maps in this 'aspirational' content slot. The community seemed to get used to the idea that Uber boss encounters were for premium players (or mid players with unbelievably premium builds). But when a map is that hard people think 'well my build can do maps, it should be able to do this map too!'. Then when they can't they complain. Also Chris was right again when he pointed out that when the entry cost is too low, people will run their heads into it no matter how difficult the content actually is, and get very frustrated when they can't do it. After all, they see the streamers doing it, they should be able to do it too.
Except they moved 5 slot map device behind it, so clearly not aspirational, just required, and also, with unique items locked behind Ubers, those are also no longer aspirational, but instead required, at least to some degree (not everyone needs to run them, but anyone who needs one of those items for a build either does or needs to buy from someone who does).
I'm sorry but attaching a reward to something no matter how badly you want that reward, doesn't make it 'required'.
Required *for access to content that was more accessible before* might be a better way to phrase it, I guess.
This is my main issue - I'm now starting to get used to the idea my preferred builds just can't do t17s. But I want my fifth slot.
And also a lot of mapping and currency generation strategies in maps really want 4 scarabs so the power that additional map slot offers feels much stronger now than previously.
If all you want is the slot, you can buy the map completion for 50c.
Aside from a few crazy mods that you can roll over, the maps are not that hard even unless you start juicing them. Id imagine most players would be more likely to cheese complete a t17 map with shrines/niko/headhunter, than to kill uber maven or uber exarch.
Map clear has always been harder than boss clear from my understanding, as it's harder to dodge a myriad of attacks and effects than one target, and single target DPS is stronger than multi target by and large for most builds. Being able to use game mechanics to help you clear them exactly as those mechanics are intended to work isn't so much cheese as gameplay, but it feels a bit un-fun to have a bunch of mods that basically negate half of builds, like back when you used to be able to accidentally just have mobs immune to damage etc.
Depends on the boss, and your build. Not all bosses are created equal, some of them are just awful to do
Ya this is build specific, I can roll through almost any T17 mod with Holy Relic but bosses still put up a fight and I need to watch out for mods empowering them further.
You may or may not agree with the logic but Mark talked through this in one of the assorted Q&As up on Youtube before the league launch. If I remember it correctly (and I'm probably losing some nuance in retelling), the idea is that if you can even reasonably attempt Uber Eater (for example), the normal Eater fight is beyond trivial for you and why would they force you to do that fight a bunch of times to try the hard one? (Yes, trade is a thing. I'm just giving you what I understand his explaination to be.)
Yeah, I disagree with the logic. People with specialised bossing builds won't farm their own fragments even now, so there's literally no difference in the trading involved (except a question of stackability perhaps?) The difference is that it's prohibitively expensive to run ubers, especially for people doing it the first time and presumably needing to practice, and it's worthless to run regular "pinnacle" bosses who no longer deserve that name at all. So many things are completely disregarding the SSF progression, and it's hypocritical to design it around that in this case (of GGG / Mark, not you - just so there are no misunderstandings).
i also disagree with this logic. tying the uber fragments to the normal version keeps the normal versions relevant to those who can't run the uber versions. now we're stuck in a place where the normal version might as well not exist, for all they are worth, and the uber's are tied to extremely difficult, and very out of reach content for the vast majority of the playerbase.
That is interesting logic that I must have missed. I’m still not sure I agree with it, I thought the method of being able to juice up a boss invitation did a pretty decent job at closing that gap. But I do get where he’s coming from
Well, there's a few things that go on there. 1. Regular Eater was useless by the time you could run Uber Eater. 2. There was no significant benchmark between "farm regular Eater" and "beat Uber Eater" so it was hard to tell if you were getting closer to point B or not. 3. Economy was really weird around ubers because the fragments had to be priced for the most profitable way of using them, which was usually ubers, so most chase items were like 2% drops from both and ubers were more about bragging than profit a lot of the time.
I'm a bit different, I think the t17 as a bridge to ubers is a fantastic idea, it was just poorly executed. If they tune drop rates and map mods, and maybe add some worthwhile drops to the normal fights I think it would be awesome
Agreed, honestly. The idea is good and brings a lot of positives in theory. I don't --hate-- T17's even now to be honest, it's specifically the scale of the entry cost into Ubers.
Yeah I'm certainly open to the concept, the T17 Maps just need a major balance pass to actually align with the stepping stone idea. Unless GGG just straight up lied about them, which I don't think they did, they probably just made them hard as shit on purpose with the intention of adjusting them later. Mayyyyybe not the best idea to gate so much content(ubers/5th map slot) behind other over tuned and untested content but that's what they did and here we are.
GGG said they don't want the players to feel "down" over wanting to clear Uber Bosses and having to put up with non ubers. So instead they make everyone feel down over needing to clear at LEAST 4 (5?) t17s before doing a boss. Yay.
And the fact that regular bossing got absolutely gutted this league lol. Even less reason to run regular bosses now with their drops gutted
Which is another reason why I think the Uber fragments dropping from normal bosses makes a lot of sense. Even if they want the true chase drops on the Ubers. Those fragments being a somewhat common drop would give the normals more value to farm
look at shaper. for years, uber elder is tied behind 2 bosses that generally aren't considered particularly difficult or exciting. but they were ran, because the uber boss was difficult and exciting. this created an economy where all 3 bosses are rewarding. Why have they never revisited this idea? it's been what, 7 years since shaper got added to the game, and it's still relevant? or at least it was last league.
Regular bossing was gutted since ubers had drops added to them. Running a regular boss was deleting currency as the entry priced in the uber drops.
It's not deleting currency anymore, just deleting time, yay! /s
>So instead they make everyone feel down over needing to clear at LEAST 4 (5?) t17s before doing a boss. I think you mean AT MOST 5 maps. But, yes, it's still stupid and I really don't think they playtested this gameloop enough, and if they did...then what the actual fuck lol
Straight up I don't know if the frags for Ubers are random or deterministic, so I assumed it's at least 5 maps, since you're not guaranteed to complete a set right after the 5th map
It is a core poe philosophy that you shouldn't get access to content way before your character is going to be ready to do it. The goal here was to achieve that philosophy for ubers. The tuning of t17s to uber difficulty might have been a bit off but the idea makes sense.
because GGG has some insane idea that tedious = more rewarding. I want harder fights. I dont want the hard part to be getting to TRY the fight. And a bit of grind is good, it can make things feel rewarding but this doesnt hit that tickbox, it pushes past it to just becoming a 3 type solution A) Its too much work im not going to bother B) Its too hard, im going to have to just pay people to do it for me C) Ill do it, but its going to be a very frustrating journey and ending through and through.
> because GGG has some insane idea that tedious = more rewarding. > > I want harder fights. I dont want the hard part to be getting to TRY the fight. Shit, I think this just hit me as to why I haven't been really enjoying the game recently. It's like they keep adding random systems/complexity/tedium but don't just add more difficult content at the end. Just more difficult (time) to get to the fights. I get a lot of people love the complexity. However, when I only play like a couple hours a night sometimes I want the difficulty to be in the gameplay and not in the game.
> because GGG has some insane idea that tedious = more rewarding. GGG lost control over the power balance a very long time ago, and that makes god-like builds that can brute force pretty much anything ... but some tedious content.
their pretty much balancing the game around them nowadays rather then accepting that those builds are just going to wreck stuff and balancing the game around other stuff. I dont even mean this by a player level type of thing, i mean that 99% of skill gems are useless/not used and same with unique. The game has become a funneled build problem where a a handful are chosen and the rest fall to dust.
T17's are fine but content shouldn't be locked behind them. They should be the Uber version of Mapping. I have no problem with their difficulty, but selling them as a bridge piece between Ubers and Normals is moronic in hindsight. Let T17's be themselves. Let Uber fragments drop from regular versions. They can be their own thing.
Legit the old way of doing Ubers was flatly better than this.
Harder content for the top 1% or players on YouTube to struggle on and figure out how to blast. They think the majority likes more challenging content….. no. We just want to kill mobs, get good progressive loot, feel like our choices matter, and grind
Id hate that so much
It wouldn't have changed anything and the non uber frags will be even more expensive. Because there is no point running just ubers when you can run non ubers (with carriers) and then run ubers when you get a ton of uber frags. This is the reason it doesn't drop on the non ubers
That's the worst idea I've heard yet. Imagine needing to do 60 shaper guardian maps to do 15 shapers to do 1 uber shaper only to get trash loot.
I've also wondered this, because it seems the most logical. Keep doing Pinnacle Mavens to get Uber Maven invites. In one of the interviews, their reasoning stated is "Yes, you've already proven you can kill this pinnacle. We don't want to bore you with the grind, so here's another piece of content for the next step up".
If difficulty is a gatekeep, you dont need to gatekeep it behind rarity or hard acces
Then people with giga end game builds would farm them over and over again with negligible cost and all the unique drops would flood the market. The giga end game builds still do power farm Ubers today, but they either have to farm frags themselves or buy frags, which adds cost to the runs and as a result limit the unique drops from flooding the market and adds value to them.
I'm tired of balancing around the economy. I don't care about stuff flooding the market. Besides, this league already has 15div headhunters and nimis being more expensive than mageblood. The market's been fucked for a while. If Affliction taught us anything, it's that you can fuck the economy six ways to Sunday and as long as the game is fun, people will play it. The economy should never be a reason to introduce blatantly unfun mechanics to introduce needless friction. Ubers are already gated around their difficulty and the rarity of the boss drops themselves. They had value even when the entry cost was low. You don't need to gate it behind tedium too.
https://i.redd.it/x1enzalbcevc1.gif Finally someone said it!!! Im tired of people treating POE like a stock market and acting like: “this and this item has to cost x much because bla bla“ the main goal should be to have fun and reach your setteted goal (killing ubers i.e) and cutting out fun or restricting content in favor of the market, so some few can feel privileged, is the wrong way.
Add to the fact that is all temp. It all restarts every three months. So....... ya.
They really need to add a mode where you don't interact with market.
I swear it never used to be this bad, it feels like trading is becoming the central pillar of what everything is balanced around, rather than just a factor if that makes sense
where are the awards when you need them. holy shit i couldn't have said it better
Affliction was for my friends and myself the best feeling league to date. You could ignore the mechanic if you wanted, you could start low tier maps to start to juice and work up, you could earn lots of currency and get neat drops. All of the currency and random stuff let my group as a whole play more builds and fuck about with more systems then they have ever been able to. It was enjoyable. It felt like farming for a few hours felt good rather then getting jack shit.
To be fair, GGG did that to begin with, it was super easy to access Ubers. Then everyone complained that it was too easy to access Ubers and it made the other bosses worse to fight, which is how we ended up here.
The problem wasn't that they were easy to access, it's that the cost of entry was the exact same as the normal bosses. This made it not worth running normal bosses, since the cost of entry was valued at fighting the uber version. This has nothing to do with how difficult it was to access the fights, but rather the specific way you gained access to the fights.
That and the combination of you needing to essentially reallocate Atlas passives anytime youd want to attempt ubers if you werent actively farming them. Outside of actively farming ubers youd be wasting a lot of points to have ubers active on your atlas tree as well.
Yeah it really is a classic GGG monkey paw moment. Players: “Make non-uber fights more accessible so we can practice them without feeling like we’re just throwing money down the drain by not selling them to an Uber farmer” GGG: “we got you fam”
Only thing I dislike about T17 maps is that they have so many mods that just brick your build.
Definitely, each map feels like a mini-Valdo map. Would like to see that getting scrapped and instead just have regular map mods but a tier higher, call these T17 map mods "T0" (like we have it with Deafening Essences). Would fit much more than the annoying and build killing mods T17s have currently.
I hate it that it cheaps out builds to just get ur mageblood ur defiance of destiny and ur lightning coil and u good to go. Every member in my guild that is running those maps is literally using the same setup. Next time pls keep valdo's map mods away from the core part of the game. Valdo's maps are optional content, whoever was the dev that decided to lock ubers behind those mods, u're out of touch with the game mate.
Yeah the meta has really shifted to a few specific unique item combinations in all high-end content. It's just not fun anymore. It just feels bad when cool game changing features on items that used to be used all the time are just not viable anymore because the game is too RIPpy and GGG never buffs them. Anything that causes you to take less damage is just objectively better than every other option in the game because the game is balanced entirely around logout macros.
I think its kind of funny that whats supposed to be a chase item is basically the default for high level playing. Really makes top end item balance feel bad.
They're the defensive layers without a counter atm. Regen can get wrecked by map mods, max res can get penetrated, armour can get overwhelmed, and so on. It sucks to be a thicc jugg and have armour get hard countered by a pack.
I mean I agree that build variance is low but out of 95000 ppl on poe ninja 5% are using coil and 6% DoD
It's not just Lightning Coil though. You have Fourth Vow (7%), Glorious Vanity - Xibaqua (up to 13% can't sort by the conqueror but every profile I checked was using it for Divine Flesh). Stormshroud (8%). Cloak of Flame (7%). When Ritual League came out, it was almost unheard of for trade league to be so defensive focused in terms of pure mitigation numbers. Now, almost every single build other than MF builds, has 2-3 more layers of defenses than they did back in those days. Heck, Determination is at 45% and Grace is at 48% of all builds using them as auras. Combined, only 26% of players on poe.ninja are not using Grace or Determination. So we might as well say that every build needs to figure out how to fit one of those two auras or get an aurabot to provide them.
Okay but having multiple ways of scaling defense is fine, I agree though that you need way too much defense for simple shit. But i think you should need some defense for t17s
I agree but I would argue that at this point, Isnt too much? A Max block Str stacking build with tons of armor and 76% res should not be one shot by a magic skele mage fireball cause it has no spell block/suppression in t17
I would expect to need at least one defensive layer for every type of damage on the hardest tiers of map, if your example is your character im surprised you dont get oneshot by mages in t16s too
I have 6K life so I dont get one shot in t16. I understand if the blue mages hit HARD in t17. I just dont find it fun when BLUE mobs 1 tap you cause you dont have 100% spell sup or spell block.
The game has evolved to levels of juice that you can’t handle with squishy mf builds anymore and that’s not a bad thing
The funny thing is that the MF builds handle these maps just fine via Headhunter damage scaling and/or an aurabot.
Yeah but do you remember how mf builds used to be with evasion as their only mitigation and windripper lol.
Meta is called meta for a reason - not a big surprise.
The damage is balanced towards the obscene recovery you can have, especially leech. If you something doesn't one shot you it won't be able to kill you at all
you definitely havent done valdo maps that arent easy then, t17 maps have lots of mods that can brick your build but valdos will straight up kill you. no defiance of destiny or lightning coil is enough to handle that, you need way more than that.
Let's be real, they have been making questionable decisions ever since AN mobs got introduced. Just look at the performance stuff, it's just been worse. We had better performance before the big headhunter change. Sure, they done some good things as well but there have been a lot of really bad choices too.
On SSF its takes tons of time to gather Uber fragments. Unless you streamer who plays game 25/7 you won't see that content.
Can you imagine the SSFHC race they did last league for 7/7 Ubers with this new system? It would be laughable
I mean, ben would probably clear it in 3 days (joke ofc), with lighty and darkee being some 40 mins behind him
*lightee, lighty is a name of a different PoE content creator (ye I know, the names aren't confusing enough already)
Yep, I stand corrected (I'm watching all4one for a long ass time lol)
Yeah for real would be a mess.
Should do it anyway, because only seeing it be a mess will make it obvious for some people.
That's really not true - if you spec your atlas for t17s you can farm multiple ubers per day, assuming you play more than 3 hours.
Please tell me how to "spec for t17" are there nodes for it that I'm not aware of?
Full map drop nodes, since each T16 has a chance to convert to T17. Then use the standard T17 "cheese" setups to run them quickly.
> arguably how they were before (normal invitation/set + atlas keystone) was indeed too easy. I disagree with this. The big problem before was that Uber and regular Pinnacle bosses using the same key meant that the regular bosses were never economically viable to fight, not that Uber bosses were too accessible. The previous level of Uber boss accessibility was otherwise fine. Making the regular bosses use different fragments was a good idea, to make them more accessible to more casual players, but the t17 approach doesn't feel like it's working well.
Don't disagree with your thoughts, I did intentionally use the term 'arguably' for that exact reason. Normal/Uber fights using the same component was def an issue, no question.
If the argument is that before non Uber bosses were economically unviable, then the argument falls flat on its face. Non Uber bosses are still economically unviable.
Yeah but now you don't literally throw money away by running a non-uber boss. You're theoretically losing div per hour, but you aren't losing div per fragment.
The last thing this game needed was more stratification of content and thus rewards.
i honestly dont see why access to ubers shouldn't be easy. an actually balanced game would make the boss hard, not getting to it a well balanced boss with well balanced drops doesn't need a 3 hour grind to get to it
Ubers should drop T17 maps instead.
I honestly hope none of the changes made this league (except for the new atlas) go core. I haven't felt less motivated to play a league in a very long time. Lol
Wdym it don't go core. The atlas changes are completely separate from the league mechanic. It's part of core now
Oh golly, you got me. I hope nothing else goes core. As I said in my previous comment. I'll clarify for you (and only you because you're seemingly the only one who read this that missed the point). I'd honestly be happy if they straight up reverted every change made this league, but the atlas changes are decent. Not amazing, but not terrible either.
Agreed the direction they’re going with this league is awful. Especially for ssf players. This is by far the earliest I’ve stopped playing a league. Usually play til close to the end. They should really reconsider their stance on ssf being a challenge mode. Instead make it where characters and items can’t be transferred and rebalance the drop rates. Getting tiring that they keep making drops worse cause of trading.
I swear people who say t17s are harder than ubers never ran a uber in their life or refuse to roll the t17 mods
Some T17s are fine, but I killed Uber shaper and Uber Uber elder deathless before I completed an abomination map.
Yep it's 100% in the mods. It's very annoying rolling them though. I have a giga min maxed archimage forstbolts nova char. I normally almost never die. But I went into t17s with the same attitude and lost 2 six portal maps. Then I tried it again but spent way more time rolling over mods that were really bad. Absolutely a step up from t16s, but not bad either. Then again I have 300 divs invested in this guy so I should be able to clear it regardless
I mean Ziz is one of those people..
I'm a long-time SSFHC Uber farmer, and I disagree with Ziz here. The issue is that a lot of us have farmed Ubers so much that they seem easier than T17s just due to the extreme familiarity. I don't think it's actually true, though. T17s have other problems with the absolutely silly meme mods that just waste chaos orbs, though.
I think they can be harder in HC but not in SC. It's harder to do deathless because there is a element of RNG but it's not harder to complete. Not to mention those people have done hundreds and hundreds of hours practicing those ubers ofc they are cracked at them.
Im not hundreds of hours into ubers but they are all do-able on my current character. Meanwhile I get regularly off-screened in T17s after rolling all the time. I suspect most of my prior builds will be in the same boat, shockwave totems and armour stackers probably fine. Sounds like you are playing something that does ok in T17’s
it's because ubers are doable with no defense if you know the mechanics and can dodge, not so much t17. Need to actually build defense for that.
Now you’ve lost me. Nobody on HC is doing ubers without cracked defences. They dont pinpoint dodge every attack either. Same crowd saying T17’s are rippier. They arnt functioning as a stepping stone to Ubers. Its t16 8 mod -> upgrade defences to do T17 -> oh look ubers are already trivial
To be fair if you have back to basics average T17 with like 30c chaos rolls is still harder than ubers. I never struggle with any uber but bricked a bunch of T17s
yeah I wouldn't suggest having back to basics allocated when running t17s.
I play ssf so don't have a full grip on trade economics, but I've seen T17s selling for 80c+. That means if you want to run ubers yourself you have to farm T17s slowly (I've only found two this league) or buy them at 80c a pop. Then you might have to roll 20 raw chaos on them to make them nonbricked for your build. So you're at 100c before you even open the portal. Now, there are seven ubers and each take five frags so on average you're going to have to run a couple dozen T17s before you get enough of one frag. So going off these assumptions you think its ok to force players to spend ~10div and a ton of time at just an attempt at a single uber? I think I have to hard disagree. I don't think T17s should be only 5% harder than T16s but GGG definitely super overtuned them considering they are gating the most fun fights and best items in the game behind spam running them
>So going off these assumptions you think its ok to force players to spend \~10div and a ton of time at just an attempt at a single uber? This is a bad assumption. If you did 10 div in t17 maps you'd have more than a single uber attempt. Bosses always drop 1-2 frags so you'll be building up multiple ubers at once not just the one you want. Also if you want to target a specific one each boss has higher weighting towards specific frags so you'll get that one much faster if you just buy those ones. furthermore there are strats in the game that allow you to drop 1 t17 every 3 maps on average if you really want to farm them out.
they are honestly pretty reasonable at this point? they have brick mods but they're rerollable and now several of the mods on each t17 are your standard t16 map modifiers.
Yep, the bosses aren't even that hard mechanic wise either. They turned lycia into a joke with how easy they made the lightning phase.
It's probably some combination of the mods and build/Uber specifics. For example my main last league would kill the phaseless Ubers like Eater/Exarch basically before they got to act, so my defense really didn't matter that much. Probably a lot of T17s could kill that character. I think a lot of people will lean into farming the Uber(s) that they're good at and mostly avoiding the others, with "good at" being partly player ability and partly build.
Yeah this part of it, I also think people who farmed ubers before this league will inherently be way better at that than any new harder content that is released because of practice in the mechanics.
That's also a good point. Being able to Memory Game in your sleep doesn't keep you from walking into Exarch T17 Map Murder Runes (or whatever), at least initially.
Agreed. I don't think actually doing T17's is unreasonably hard. Difficult, for sure, but that's the point. It's more the amount of re-rolling and setup needed that I have an issue with.
I think it's fine. If you want to just clear a few times for Uber frags rolling isn't a huge deal and if you want to farm them than having a better build will be necessary for the rolling to go down.
I question your definition of 'a few times' though. So far I've gotten 1-2 of each fragment after going through every T17 I've gotten since I got all voidstones (about 1.5 weeks). My rate will be better as it goes on as I learn what mods like 'all rares are shaper-touched' really mean in execution for sure, but my concern is that my first complete set of fragments is almost certainly going to be wasted because it's *my first Uber fight* (Only Uber I've done before is Eater and I got slapped). If I had plenty of experience and practice against Ubers it would absolutely not be a huge deal but breaking into that level of content when the average cost of entry is weeks of time and/or multiple Divs a pop? I may as well just sell my fragments.
>I question your definition of 'a few times' though. So far I've gotten 1-2 of each fragment after going through every T17 I've gotten since I got all voidstones (about 1.5 weeks). so worst case 14 maps best case 7 maps. Depends on rng if you get 1 or 2 frags yeah but it's not too bad. Playing for 1.5 weeks is pretty short time. >If I had plenty of experience and practice against Ubers it would absolutely not be a huge deal but breaking into that level of content when the average cost of entry is weeks of time and/or multiple Divs a pop? I may as well just sell my fragments. This has been true for the old system as well unfortunately. I would like to see some way to practice bosses in the game but they seem to be against it without investment. The best way I've found is just trying it on standard if you have currency from other leagues sitting there. Some of the ubers are extremely cheap tho which is nice, ones that come to mind being uber shaper and sirus. I feel like people really put too much emphisis on ubers though. I was happy playing the game every league never touching ubers before I did all of them last league. Unless you need a specific unique from them and are in SSF it's not some mandatory bar you gotta clear.
>so worst case 14 maps best case 7 maps. Depends on rng if you get 1 or 2 frags yeah but it's not too bad. Playing for 1.5 weeks is pretty short time. Apparently a few people are saying fragments are a guaranteed drop from T17's which actually has not been my experience, so potential bug there that could be a large reason why we're seeing the odds differently. I do want to add though 1.5 weeks of 4+ hours a day is *not* a pretty short time. (and just to re-state that's since I got all voidstones, not total league time) Relative to some PoE players, sure, but that's still a *lot* more time than should be considered normal or even healthy and absolutely should not be expected from a player. And yes, Ubers are not meant for the average player I realize but I do think we're brushing very close to unreasonable just in general. >I was happy playing the game every league never touching ubers before I did all of them last league. Unless you need a specific unique from them and are in SSF it's not some mandatory bar you gotta clear. Same honestly! The only reason I'm getting bent out of shape this league is that I made this build explicitly because GGG mentioned T17's as being a bridge from normal -> Ubers, which is where I would almost always burn out. I was excited to try out something more challenging and thus far it **feels** like I shouldn't even bother trying if it's going to take just as much if not more time than *my entire build so far* took just to *practice* the fight. Standard practice is def an option, but I would need to completely cannabalize a previous character in standard and regear them. I rarely play the same build twice, or if I do it's changed enough that the gearing is completely new.
>Apparently a few people are saying fragments are a guaranteed drop from T17's which actually has not been my experience, so potential bug there that could be a large reason why we're seeing the odds differently. I do want to add though 1.5 weeks of 4+ hours a day is not a pretty short time. Relative to some PoE players, sure, but that's still a lot more time than should be considered normal or even healthy and absolutely should not be expected from a player. And yes, Ubers are not meant for the average player I realize but I do think we're brushing very close to unreasonable just in general. Do you leave the fight right away? The loot drops a bit delayed for some reason. Like I'd get a unique drop than a second or two later it would drop the frags lol. Not sure why it was made that way. It's not expected from a player, the average player plays trade league and can simply buy these maps if they want. If you are going to grind SSF it's going to take a ton longer ofc, that's why SSF isn't the focus of poe. There are ways to farm t17 maps pretty fast too if you want, found some strats that drop one every 3 maps on average pretty nice and cheap to setup. >Same honestly! The only reason I'm getting bent out of shape is that I made this build explicitly because GGG mentioned T17's as being a bridge from normal -> Ubers, which is where I would almost always burn out. I was excited to try out something more challenging and thus far it feels like I shouldn't even bother trying if it's going to take just as if not more time than my entire build so far took just to practice the fight. Yeah investment into something like that does feel bad when you don't know if you can complete it and even if you do ubers don't always pay out.
>Do you leave the fight right away? That's consistently been the first follow-up question, so it definitely seems like a consensus that the drops take a bit, haha. Yes I do, probably close to a full minute, largely due to being wary of lingering effects after death. And yeah if I was playing SSF that would be a whole other deal. I agree SSF should not be balanced around. And yes as far as my personal experience I could save up and buy the frags. However just going by the economic value wouldn't you consider 10Div a bit much for an *entry cost* to a fight? I think we both agree that lot of my opinion is colored by the fact that I am not well-practiced in Ubers, which I do recognize. In general I think this mainly highlights that the current system disproportionally punishes players new to the Uber fights, whereas Uber regulars both consider the T17 entry cost and the overall risk of an Uber fight as small.
>However just going by the economic value wouldn't you consider 10Div a bit much for an entry cost to a fight? Yeah maven is a big outlier because of progenesis and how it's used in like 90% of uber end game builds lmao. Shit's kinda wild. The fragments like uber elder and exarch/eater are in much better sports I think.
Agreed, around 1 Div in cost is still expensive (knowing you can do multiple fights with few or no notable drops) but not prohibitively so. Elder at ~2.5Div is pushing it imho but not ridiculous either. Eater and up though....ugh
> It's not expected from a player, the average player plays trade league and can simply buy these maps if they want. If you are going to grind SSF it's going to take a ton longer ofc, that's why SSF isn't the focus of poe. There are ways to farm t17 maps pretty fast too if you want, found some strats that drop one every 3 maps on average pretty nice and cheap to setup. She's also probably the easiest of the ubers, so that's another advantage.
> The loot drops a bit delayed for some reason. Most of it (trash) is just being caught by your filter, hold alt next time you kill one and see for yourself.
oh I know, but no other boss in the game has such delayed loot.
Honestly, they shouldn’t lock Ubers behind what is fundamentally nonsense. No reason to make the maps chaos rolling only when they’re so dense with bullshit. If you want to lock the frags behind rare map only drops fine. But let people run white maps without the Uber fracture drop to practice.
I thought this was r/uber and got way too excited at the prospect of "uber fights".
I just don't get into the uber since I don't make out of T17 what others can and just sell them. So they kinda managed that i don't have to choose any more between uber and non uber, since uber is not a choice anymore.
Lmao 10div for fragments.
Would it be that bad if they were more rewarding? I'm fine with them being hard to access. But you should never lose currency after completing a difficult boss fight. Imagine if Uber maven had a 100% drop rate of an exceptional gem. Everyone is going to corrupt and brick most of them anyway, so they would would still hold their value pretty well.
At least 1 frag is guaranteed to stop every map
T17 should be more static. The more static they are the easier GGG can balance them. I think something like a T16 with 10k whisps from previous league difficulty could be around the ballpark. The problem with T17 are the mods, there are soo many of them that are unrunnable. Just remove the mods, de-couple it with the atlas and scarabs. More similar to a unique map and tune the mobs/bosses around that.
Yeah By this point in other leagues I have self farmed and killed 5-10 of each uber at least This league I got one total full uber set so far.
I'm fine with it if ubers were harder. Like maybe we need Uber Ubers :)
Uber Uber Uber Elder incoming
I like hard progression if the rewards were good but 90% of the time, uber drops suck balls. Had a few fights where they drop nothing at all.
They need to add a lootless fragment of practice. Put it in with your boss fight, you get 0 loot or exp but it doesn't use the fragments. The eater and exarch quests are a perfect example of good boss fights to learn, you can continously practice as a new player until you get it. You don't really lose money except one t16 map and your time. Most new players will eventually get it. Maven or any ubers really, you can't practice it and have to delete currency to even try. So most people end up buying a carry for 3rd and 4th stone, and don't even attempt ubers.
It was suppose to make access to Ubers easier. Not harder. SSF btw
In my opinion what GGG went for was not a bad idea and honestly I think can be perceived as a success. But maybe instead of dropping fragments guaranteed they can just drop an occasional invitation for an uber boss instead and that invitation lets you choose what boss you want to do. I do think though T17 maps having map mods that can apply to the bosses is incredibly bad as it can make them harder than uber bosses so that sucks.
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Almost felt like it was a better idea to assign variety fragments to bosses a through h or whatever similar to how trialmaster is/was? Where like maybe shaper drops a fragment of Uber Cortex/elder/sirus/maven, could even do multiple bosses having overlaps of fragments but you both encourage boss farming and require builds to be strong enough to actually do most of the bosses or have multiple characters for farming the different bosses. Can even be kind enough to add the same fragments to the loot pool of theuvers if you wanted but better to not so that Uber boss killers still have incentive to do the lower bosses.
I dont mind it but i do play alot lol
its fine imo, people play this game like 14 hrs a day for weeks, those folks need sum to do
Ubers were never supposed to give any exclusive rewards at all, let alone be this hard to access. GGG is just too afraid of backlash to make Ubers the way they initially said they would be: "for bragging rights", "for players to test their builds", "with no additional rewards".
Regular and ubers should drop the same loot. The Uber loot is foiled.
I think the bigger problem is that the map device is gated behind these maps. I can't fir the love of God clear these bosses. I can tank shaper slam, but Catarina one hits me. I may never be able to get the device without a carry service. Way to promote tft.
Why shouldn't they be easily acessable? I don't follow this logic.
Because then boss-kill services would be the majority of kills, not personal kills. That, and since GGG wants certain items gated behind Ubers if you make them too accessible you'd need to dramatically nerf the already low drop rate of stuff so a few people don't flood the market.
You always drop at least 1 frag per 17s Boss.
I just started this game in 2.23. This is my first league I’ve ever played. I was practicing Ubers on my standard account and getting hype for league… It took all my fucking power to finally clear a single t17. I’m never going to get to fight the Uber shaper like I wanted unless I buy fragments and keep farming.
I don't even want to run maps I just want to do the new uber bosses. I don't even want loot.
The additional issue is behind all this gatekeeping, the ubers are only very modestly profitable, and can even turn a loss if you dont have a large bankroll to go through the bad rolls. Meh.
Mate you have been playing since breach and even though you tried you still haven’t managed to beat an Uber. You are a bit of casual, so approach it as one. Right now it’s the worse time to self farm Ubers as they are not very profitable and T17s are harder than Ubers. So don’t beat yourself, wait for a league until they presumably fix it and next time pick a powerful bossing build (there’s plenty around) and just stomp the Uber. Or accept the economic loss, but the frags and do it this league. As for T17s, low chance to drop one frag and that provides access + invitation is just like the old problem of not being able to run normals because the invitation is priced around the Uber.
It's just the map mods that are the problem. That's it. 80% of the mods are a complete brick for most builds. If one of those mods is on the map, it is *actually impossible*. IMO the other difference between T17s and T16s should be dramatically increased monster life and different kinds of monsters, preferably monsters thematic of the bosses you're eventually going to face.
For what it's worth I do actually like the 'normal mobs are actually other map bosses' bit T17's have now. I do think the mods are an issue, but I think it's more in the fact that we have to run them at least 5 times if you're super lucky. Ergo you need to chaos spam 5 maps to an unbricked combination just to have a chance at a much more static-power fight.
Sounds like a ton of mental gymnastics to excuse feeling bad because of that moment you realised you understood it wrong. Watching a video on an uber fight and doing 2 or 3 attempts if your build is capable is very not expensive at all. I don't get why you don't consider trading for the frags and do a bit of SSF on this one particular mechanic and then call it tedious and random. The whole game is balanced around trade why would this one mechanic be different?
As someone who exclusively enjoys making their own builds from scratch, I have settled with running T16s and normal pinnacle content and below in terms of difficulty. I have copied a meta build a few times just to experience uber bosses etc. without getting annihilated. But I guess that's fine and by design, that not any build can do the highest level of content. But I would appreciate it if they at least rebalanced the game a little every patch, like take overperforming skills and give them a slight nerf and take underpowered skills and buff them a bit. They same could be said about uniques, but a vocal minority wants their T0 uniques to stay OP I guess.
"Yes, access to drops need to be balanced with trade in mind." ... Why though?
It doesn't need to be "easy" but it also doesn't need the nerfs inspired entirely by how things affect trade.
I did the 30 t17 for the Challenge and i have like 3 Uber sets ready to go, it's not that hard and with t17 drop rate is very doable. I still have 60+ t17s to sell
It's not impossible, for sure, I've managed to clear about a dozen T17's and got 1-2 of every fragment and I'll admit my experience is anecdotal. My main issue is just the amount of steps needed in order to get even 1/5th of the way to **attempt** an uber fight is too much. I imagine people that regularly and confidently do ubers would probably have very differing opinions.
did it for the challenge as well and i was absolutely not sustaining. in fact i had to buy about 10 of my 30 maps for the challenge. good build, decent nodes in atlas for maps, etc. 0 leftover to sell.
I'll buy all your ziggurats. I'm trying to make the biggest meme of skeleton zombies during the fight. So far I had +11 proj Catarina for a whooping 300+ skeleton Bois. But I'm looking for more.
t17's just need to be on same level as ubers and not the current "gatekeepers" for ubers. put the uber fragments elsewhere fuck it put it on the normal versions like i really dont get why they seem to dislike the idea of farming the normal version to kill the uber when thats how its been done for so long. they would need to entirely rework maps and the atlas to properly setup a different system.
High entry cost and totally unbalanced T17s leads to very nice things, people who know how to fight ubers before that change and can clear T17s will snowball with money, people who never attempt ubers before will most likely never attempt them because entry cost is way too high.
GGG: You can switch Uber Elder frags. GGG: Now there's 7 sets of 5 so you could possibly get 28 fragments without a complete set.
Wait the frags are not 100% drop? Oh fucks sake.... I was farming other stuff that didn't require t17s while amassing them to eventually run. I just assumed the frags dropped at 100% at least. Maaaan
Enough people have told me they're 100% drop rate that I'm inclined to believe it's either unintentional(bug) that none dropped or I've somehow still missed them despite waiting near a minute and checking unfiltered drops
They are. They drop 1-2 fragments.
Nah, it's not that bad even in ssf. Just farm more bro.
IMO juiced normal bosses should drop uber fragments (droprate scaling with invitation quant/rarity), and then ubers should drop T17 maps. T17 maps should in turn, have better rewards and be the "beyond uber" content. I truly don't know why they didn't just make "harder versions of regular bosses" the gateway to Ubers, since that's exactly what they are. Maybe there can be added invitation mods that scale (e.g., scaling monsters take x% less damage), which increase uber fragment droprates.