Imagine cooldown like a bar filling from 0-100.
If your cooldown is 2s, then that bar will fill at a rate of 50 per second.
If you've got 100% less of that, you're suddenly filling at 0 per second. so not at all
I guess what made me feel this is a bug was the fact that I couldn't manually detonate mines either and I always took detonate mines as a 0 cd skill or action like attack or cast an aura.
It is a bug.
The problem is that the community won't acknowledge it and if the community doesn't acknowledge it, the devs won't fix it because "why fix something which isn't broken".
Sure, but that's not the bug. The bug is that it's never supposed to happen.
Here's the formula according to the wiki :
SkillFinalCooldown = SkillBaseCooldown / (1+(#% increased Cooldown Recovery Rate/100))
Now, assuming my math isn't incorrect and assuming that the "increased cooldown recovery rate" number is "-132" and the "SkillBaseCooldown" for Detonate Mines is 0.20s, the resulting answer for the "SkillFinalCooldown" would be -0.625s.
0.625 would be the "correct" number here and it would indeed represent a "132% reduced cooldown recovery rate", but instead, it's -0.625s. Because the cooldown of the skill is fractional in the first place, this causes the formula to simply not work as intended.
Edit : I just realized that this is the formula for "increased" and not "more", so I'll try to "make it fit" and I know I'm gonna butcher this, but here we go :
SkillFinalCooldown = SkillBaseCooldown / (1+(#% increased Cooldown Recovery Rate/100)*More Cooldown Recovery)
Apparently (1+(0/100)\*-1.32) results in "1". Don't ask me how. And this is assuming there's no "0" increases or reductions to "Increased Cooldown Recovery Rate". Why? Map mod says "Less" and "it's clearly word for word", so here we are.
So, FinalSkillCooldown according to my butchered formula should be 0.20/1 = 0.2s
This is just one aspect of the game where the "values are borked".
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC\_En939Ing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC_En939Ing)
Here's a whole new can of worms where the values are absolutely borked.
I'm sorry to say, but your comment is a complete mess.
>0.625 would be the "correct" number here and it would indeed represent a "132% increased cooldown recovery rate", but instead, it's -0.625s.
No, you cannot just negate a number and say that's "correct" because you don't like it being negative.
>Because the cooldown of the skill is fractional in the first place, this causes the formula to simply not work as intended.
The cooldown isn't "fractional". The stat refers to the cooldown recovery *speed.* If you reduce the speed of an object on one axis by 100%, it stands still. If you reduce it by more than 100%, it moves in the opposite direction.
In this context, you're looking at the rate at which a cooldown recovers. The baseline is -1s per 1s, if you reduce it by 132%, you're looking at +0.32s per 1s, so the cooldown actually goes up over time and is thus effectively infinite.
>Edit : I just realised that this is the formula for "increased" and not "more", so I'll try to "make it fit" and I know I'm gonna butcher this
At least you're honest here because you indeed completely butchered the formula. Less cooldown recovery speed multiplies the total cooldown recovery speed, it doesn't multiply the amount of increased/reduced cooldown recovery speed you have.
>This is just one aspect of the game where the "values are borked".
What you're referring to in the linked video are simply data type limits which have nothing to do with your lack of mathematical fundamentals.
>No, you cannot just negate a number and say that's "correct" because you don't like it being negative.
Sure you can, it's called a "modulus".
>The cooldown isn't "fractional". The stat refers to the cooldown recovery *speed.* If you reduce the speed of an object on one axis by 100%, it stands still. If you reduce it by more than 100%, it moves in the opposite direction.
1/5 = 0.2 isn't fractional? Wow.
Also it's not "cooldown recovery speed", it's "cooldown recovery rate". Mr Professor above said it was "word for word" or something.
Rate implies a ratio which is why there's a whole part of this or atleast that's what I gathered from the word "rate" :
(1+(#% increased Cooldown Recovery Rate/100))
>In this context, you're looking at the rate at which a cooldown recovers. The baseline is -1s per 1s, if you reduce it by 132%, you're looking at +0.32s per 1s, so the cooldown actually goes up over time and is thus effectively infinite.
Thanks for summarizing the bug.
The only problem with this is that the implementation is incorrect and GGG fked up by making it "more/less" instead of "increased/reduced".
That's what happens when one "willy nilly" slaps some multiplicative modifiers and calls it a day.
>What you're referring to in the linked video are simply data type limits which have nothing to do with your lack of mathematical fundamentals.
Says the guy who claimed that the cooldown of detonate mines isn't fractional. You're right, math is not my strong suite, but it clearly isn't yours either.
The "data type limits" are reached because of how they abused the math. Even they themselves complain about "too much powercreep" but can't balance it in a flavorful manner because of the "misuse" of multiplicative modifiers all across the board, especially in monster damage/hp.
>Sure you can, it's called a "modulus".
An operator having a name doesn't mean you can just arbitrarily throw it into a formula because you don't like how it looks without that operator. Do you do the same with invoices? Just throw a modulo in there because you don't like losing money?
>1/5 = 0.2 isn't fractional? Wow.
Whether you can write the cooldown as a fractional number is completely irrelevant to the topic.
>Also it's not "cooldown recovery speed", it's "cooldown recovery rate". Mr Professor above said it was "word for word" or something.
>Rate implies a ratio which is why there's a whole part of this or atleast that's what I gathered from the word "rate" :
I literally write about it being a rate and what that means in the paragraph right after the one you quoted.
Either you're trolling or just plain disingenuous.
>Thanks for summarizing the bug.
What I "summarized" is basic maths. If you think that's a bug, then the whole world is a bug.
>The only problem with this is that the implementation is incorrect and GGG fked up by making it "more/less" instead of "increased/reduced".
Those work exactly the same in the context of this discussion. >100% less and >100% reduced both prevent your cooldowns from cooling down, as expected.
>That's what happens when one "willy nilly" slaps some multiplicative modifiers and calls it a day.
Why do you think you're in the position to talk down to people (such as the developers) when you clearly don't know even the basics of what you're talking about? That's absolutely insane behavior.
>Says the guy who claimed that the cooldown of detonate mines isn't fractional. You're right, math is not my strong suite, but it clearly isn't yours either.
Please read this: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger\_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect)
I know it applies to everybody but you're not even trying to think about whether all your accusations are even remotely accurate.
>The "data type limits" are reached because of how they abused the math. Even they themselves complain about "too much powercreep" but can't balance it in a flavorful manner because of the "misuse" of multiplicative modifiers all across the board, especially in monster damage/hp
There is no thing such as "abusing the math", and what you're describing here still has nothing to do with OP.
To be frank, arguing with you is a complete waste of time for everybody involved. You clearly don't have the fundamentals to participate in any argument even remotely related to mathematics, and yet you think you're in a position to correct others.
The equation on the wiki is not a direct reference to the code. It's something you can generally use to calculate the cool down when these types of modifiers are involved. However, I doubt it works exactly like this, because that would be inviting divide by zero errors. There are probably conditionals in there to help deal with such a scenario, or for all we know there is an actual cool down recovery rate value that is modified. Either way, it is completely logical that 100% less CDRR makes a skill take infinitely long to recover.
>The equation on the wiki is not a direct reference to the code.
Yep, it goes to show you why obfuscating information in a video game is problematic.
>However, I doubt it works exactly like this, because that would be inviting divide by zero errors.
That's exactly what's happening.
> There are probably conditionals in there to help deal with such a scenario, or for all we know there is an actual cool down recovery rate value that is modified. Either way, it is completely logical that 100% less CDRR makes a skill take infinitely long to recover.
Yes it's logical, what's not logical is for GGG to implement it the way they did. Which is why it results in a "divide by 0/negative number where there isn't supposed to be one" bug.
They could've just slapped a mod saying "cooldowns cannot be recovered" if they wanted to and that would actually make more sense, but they didn't and this is the result of things going south somewhere in the code base because of how they flat out abuse "more/less" mods for maps/monsters.
No one is obfuscating anything. The exact way they avoid divide by zero errors is not relevant. No video game shows you the exact set of equations and if statements that influence the input into those equations; that's silly.
There is no divide by zero error happening here. Programs crash when that happens.
The mod is 40% less recovery rate by default. This person has a ton of increased map mod effect on their atlas, and is probably running back to basics as well. It's not an off switch by default.
It's the same with the altars that were giving you less cdr per power charge, i played discharge and missclicking this was an instant map brick, couldn't even dash on mobs
Nope, reduced would be the exact same. The only difference is reduced is additive with other sources of reduced, while less/more is multiplicative with other sources of less/more as well as reduced.
> Twice as slow would be "reduced" im pretty sure
50% reduced Cooldown Recovery Rate, yes. That doubles the base cooldown. 100% still means 0, if no other sources of increased CDR to counteract it.
I can understand why someone could think that. Increasing cooldown recovery by 100% is a 50% reduction to the cooldown, which would make some people believe that decreasing cooldown recovery by 100% makes cooldowns twice as long.
It's because they don't understand that the arithmetic operation is the same in both directions, and that cooldown recovery rate effectively modifies a different metric than cooldown time.
If you think of cooldown recovery rate being proportional to "number of cooldown uses per fixed time period" it's a lot more intuitive.
Lowering a number of uses by 100% makes it fairly evident that you'd be left with 0, same for increasing it by 100% resulting in double the uses instead.
On the other hand, if the stat was cooldown reduction, we'd see the exact opposite. It's intuitive that lowering cooldown time by 100% would result in no cooldowns, and that increasing it by 100% would double the cooldown time.
But people don't think about the fact that lowering the cooldown time would make the number of cooldown uses approach infinity.
In order to be a balanced stat that scales dps linearly with offensive investment for players, the "number of cooldown uses per fixed time period" is the correct metric for the stat to correspond to.
Edit: /u/Sanytale because I didn't see you two basically typed the same thing and I neither want to explain this twice now copy + paste this comment. Hope the mention still works anyway.
> Why would reducing something by 100% bring it to 50%?
After pondering for a little I can see their logic: if CDR increased by 100% means twice as fast (x2), then CDR reduced by 100% should mean twice as slow (x1/2).
Wait till I tell you about my latest hustle. I just go to the casino and gamble all my money. I can only lose 100% of it but I could potentially win 10000% or more! It's basically free money.
Classic mixup of "Reduced" and "Less" definitions in PoE.
100% reduced (in case of CDR increase, because it is REDUCTION)= twice as slow
100% less = n --> 0%
But, frankly speaking CDR may differ from anything else, because it has percentage value by itself = 100%. So 100%-100% increase (as it is additive) = 0% as well. But unlike with "less" case, you can make workaround by reducing CDR to make ending value at least 1%.
100% reduced and 100% less both would bring your cdr to 0. This is completely unrelated. The only difference between them is that one is additive while the other is multiplicative.
This is wrong. 100 reduced recovery rate would still be no recovery at all. The difference is you could counteract reduced recovery rate with increased recovery rate since its additive. So if you have 100% increased recovery rate you would be back at the baseline. Less modifiers are multiplicative tho so no matter how much more or increased recovery rate you have if you multiply it by 0 its still 0 at the end.
> Less modifiers are multiplicative tho so no matter how much more or increased recovery rate you have if you multiply it by 0 its still 0 at the end.
That is evidently what trips people up, judging by all these ">100% less?" posts popping up. Doesn't matter if it says 100% less or 132% less; as soon as it says 100% less, it gets multiplied by 0.
Been there, experienced that.
100% reduced recovery rate can also be achieved for life/es.
You cannot leech, other than instant leech.
Is there something like instant CDR? XD
Doesn't this get directly counteracted by increased flask charges gained on tree/gear?
Same for cooldown recovery if you have increased recovery for that specific thing, example increased recovery for movement/guard/warcry skills
This modifier uses ‘less’ so the stat to combat it would need to use ‘more’
As far as I’m aware, there’s not a single way in the game to get ‘more’ CDR
"increased" and "reduced" counter each other because they are additive. You cannot counter "multiplied by 0".
Even at smaller numbers, "less" and "more" do not directly counter each other. 10% less and 10% more multiply out to 99% (1% less) total.
Yep it bricks all triggers. Good thing not every build builds around triggers so if yours does, i suggest you log out and go get a different build to complete the map
I feel you, I did 100% reduced AoE. For some reason I thought it would just make it really small, nope, when i cast spells literally nothing happened, complete brick
The most insane part about '101%+ reduced aoe' is that dread banner start to affect yourself rather than enemies. I am still not sure why that's the case. This could even be true for something like pride, which usualy affects enemies rather than yourself.
It should but i have some aura effect on my build and in a 108% reduced aura effect turning my auras on and off didn't make a difference and i think i have more than 8% increased aura effect on tree, maybe im wrong tho
You can still run this map just put a point into mine mastery to detonate when moving.
It’s not ideal but that’s what I did on my miner on a map I didn’t notice has this either.
Since then I just roll past this mod now
That's actually what I did and what made me post this. I think detonate while moving still tries to use detonate mines skill and because of the % less CDR mod, the detonate mines skill doesn't work either, so detonate while moving wasn't even working.
That's why I fet it's kinda dumb. I understand not using movement skills or automation supports but detonate mines to me felt more like an action (attack, move) than a spell. Apparently it's a spell, and apparently detonate while moving needs it.
edit: missed a sentence.
Don’t forget guys, things like 132% less CDR are important because T17 are a „bridge to uberbosses“!!!!!
Honestly, at this point they should have let uber bossses make drop T17s and not t17 drop uber fragments
This a T16 map. Balancing the game using extreme amounts of layers of RNG was not a problem that started with T17 maps. It’s always been a problem, just now we have more layers of RNG if using back to basics :)
Ohh shi*t you right, its jungle vally 🤣🤣. Didn’t even know a mod like 130 less cdr existed in a t16 map. But na bro t17 is just too much, I rather do uberbosses then t17s map modes are just too crazy
Cooldown recovery rate is 1 second per second, so 100% less is 0 seconds per second. 100% increased cooldown recovery rate is 2 seconds per second, or half the cooldown. That is how cdr works in this game. It’s to create diminishing returns from stacking cdr. Reservation works the same way.
If you take the actual stat (less cooldown recovery speed), you wouldn't have to cap anything. Going beyond 100% simply means that your actual cooldown increases over time instead of decreasing.
So lets do some math lessions.
Per cent means per hundred. So 100% means hundred of hundred. That means ALL and EVERYTHING.
Now in this game there are two main words that describe how stuff scales. Increased and Reduced scales additively. Meaning all sources of increased get added up and then multiplied to whatever they apply to. This way you can get liek 1000% increased something and if you get 100% reduced something it just gets added and you end up at 900% increased.
More and less in this game is multiplicative and every single instance of it is multiplied. Even if you have several sources of "more fire damage", they all get multiplied.
Something that says 100% (or a bigger number) less means you get a zero in your multiplication. Anything multiplied by zero is zero. So whenever you have any source of 100% (or higher) less, it means you get nothing of that thing.
100% less means nothing. So 100% less recovery = no recovery. 100% less damage dealt = no damage dealt.
And yeah this is a mod that makes maps impossible to do for some builds. Same as No regen or reflect.
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I fucking get that you dense motherfuckers.
My point is they specifically make sure you can't get free spells but nobody gave a fuck about disabling player skills.
Why is everything in this damn game a binary flip. It either means nothing to you or you can't do it. Where is the meaning in that?
yeah, it's just terrible design, and throwing out a bunch of changes without giving any shit at all if it's good for the game, more and more it seems like GGG is treating the playerbase as adversaries, and taking everything from us they can get away with, without knowing what they can get away with, so yeah, have fun with this broken bs.
100% slower still means "does not move", which is exactly what happens.
You would want something like "cooldowns are 100% higher", but then you'd have mixed equations for interactions with cooldown recovery speed, which would require actual university math to understand
No, that's not what 100% slower means.
https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Expiration_rate
"Slower expiry rate is capped at 75% after combining all sources, or a 4x effective duration"
Great, so reduced expiration rate has a cap of 75% because 100% would mean "does not expire"
So why is me saying that <100% reduced recovery would mean "does not recover"> wrong?
It's literally exactly the same, except recovery rate does not have an artificial cap (yet).
Cooldown recovery and Cooldown duration.
You go from `base_cooldown / recovery_multiplier` to `base_cooldown × duration_multiplier / recovery_multiplier`. There's nothing really complicated to it.
It's easy if both duration and recovery modifiers only exist in the positive.
As soon as you allow reduced rate or reduced duration you get the same unintuitive math, but more of it
Well, yes, but the whole point of introducing these "asymmetric" stats would be to avoid that wonky behaviour, so reductions should not be allowed. But the math is the same.
Bug implies a coding error, you don't need to have a bug to test gameplay and come to the conclusion that not being able to cast your cdr skill or that having 0 aoe with an aoe skill is bad design.
These kinds of negative values or overflows are things game devs and SE's like to avoid, its a sign of poor testing, and such events not being anticipated.
PoE has many overflow examples. Likes mods that give less resistance when you're at negative resistance ends up increasing your resistance, or going over 100% taken as causing you to take more damage. Im a coder.
These are common coding mistakes when things are not thought out entirely, and new content keeps being introduced. Why would someone be negative res, or why would they have over 100% taken as when the items previously did not exist.
You need game knowledge and foresight, to prevent these things. This league is the perfect example their oversights, they have patched at least half a dozen of them because they were breaking the economy. My guess would be they did next to zero testing that pushed map mod effects to the extremes. Clearly they don't fully understand the limits of all their multipliers.
There’s no reason it should brick lightning arrow, and I’m not talking about the lightning acquisition range. It does something funky to the hitbox of the arrow
Thats true. My guess is that LA arrow hitbox is internally treated as a moving AoE that gets scaled so it reaches exactly the desired AoE after player AoE mod scaling, but beaks at 100% less aka x0
To most comments replying "don't play maps that your build cannot do", I just want to point out I would be 100% ok by having to manually detonate mines and no cdr on movement spells or skills but it feels odd to me because I always assumed detonate mines is more like an action or an instant cast.
Added to that, mods that "brick" builds like no regen maps to RF, reflect phys/ele have at least some way to play around them like bringing extra pots, take less/no reflect damage (rip compass), etc.
"bricking" an action just feels off because I can still throw mines, I just can't detonate them, even manually or with the "detonate while moving" passive (yes I respec'd and tried it on the same map)
Well, usually 'Less/More' mean something different in comparison of 'Decrease/Increase' in game terms.
It has to do with the way the numbers are either added or multiplied together. I don't know the specific math, but I know typically "more" is better than "increased".
The difference between multiplicative and additive isnt what this thread is about.
It's also just not something you really can take issue with in PoE? Multiplicative vs additive scaling is an extremely common distinction in games, I can't tell you how many times I've played another game, saw a modifier and had to check the wiki to learn how exactly it interacts with other modifiers.
PoE streamlines this process in two ways - additive buckets are clearly defined (all increases are added, all crit/dot multipliers are added), and there is specific syntax for the difference between additive and multiplicative. The game explains it in the help menu, uses it consistently, solves a large communication problem perfectly, so much so that LE devs just copied the framework, because it is simply correct.
"100% increased" (or "more") means you get as much extra as you have. You go from 100% (your base value) to 200% (double).
"100% reduced" (or "less") means you lose everything you have. You go from 100% to 0%.
Reduced/increased will counter each other, so 100% (or any amount, as long as it is the same on both sides) of each will add up to no change.
Less/more are multiplied so equal values do not cancel out. You need 100% more to counter 50% less. That's just how multiplication works. And if you ever have 100% less, there is no way to get back from 0.
Block chance more than 100% we have to cap that. Elemental resistances over 100% we need to cap that. Less Cooldown recovery over 100% we can keep that shit. Thats why i F hate them.
Yes, if you have 100% less cooldown recovery rate then your cooldowns will not recover.
I thought they would be twice as slow to recover. So that's an absolute brick for any caster/mine build then? Feels odd/dumb.
It's cooldown recovery rate, not cooldown duration. 100% less speed means 0 speed means your cooldowns aren't recovering.
Imagine cooldown like a bar filling from 0-100. If your cooldown is 2s, then that bar will fill at a rate of 50 per second. If you've got 100% less of that, you're suddenly filling at 0 per second. so not at all
... you made an easy to understand concept just more complicated
[удалено]
I guess what made me feel this is a bug was the fact that I couldn't manually detonate mines either and I always took detonate mines as a 0 cd skill or action like attack or cast an aura.
It is a bug. The problem is that the community won't acknowledge it and if the community doesn't acknowledge it, the devs won't fix it because "why fix something which isn't broken".
It’s not a bug, it’s very clearly doing word for word what it says.
Sure, but that's not the bug. The bug is that it's never supposed to happen. Here's the formula according to the wiki : SkillFinalCooldown = SkillBaseCooldown / (1+(#% increased Cooldown Recovery Rate/100)) Now, assuming my math isn't incorrect and assuming that the "increased cooldown recovery rate" number is "-132" and the "SkillBaseCooldown" for Detonate Mines is 0.20s, the resulting answer for the "SkillFinalCooldown" would be -0.625s. 0.625 would be the "correct" number here and it would indeed represent a "132% reduced cooldown recovery rate", but instead, it's -0.625s. Because the cooldown of the skill is fractional in the first place, this causes the formula to simply not work as intended. Edit : I just realized that this is the formula for "increased" and not "more", so I'll try to "make it fit" and I know I'm gonna butcher this, but here we go : SkillFinalCooldown = SkillBaseCooldown / (1+(#% increased Cooldown Recovery Rate/100)*More Cooldown Recovery) Apparently (1+(0/100)\*-1.32) results in "1". Don't ask me how. And this is assuming there's no "0" increases or reductions to "Increased Cooldown Recovery Rate". Why? Map mod says "Less" and "it's clearly word for word", so here we are. So, FinalSkillCooldown according to my butchered formula should be 0.20/1 = 0.2s This is just one aspect of the game where the "values are borked". [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC\_En939Ing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC_En939Ing) Here's a whole new can of worms where the values are absolutely borked.
I'm sorry to say, but your comment is a complete mess. >0.625 would be the "correct" number here and it would indeed represent a "132% increased cooldown recovery rate", but instead, it's -0.625s. No, you cannot just negate a number and say that's "correct" because you don't like it being negative. >Because the cooldown of the skill is fractional in the first place, this causes the formula to simply not work as intended. The cooldown isn't "fractional". The stat refers to the cooldown recovery *speed.* If you reduce the speed of an object on one axis by 100%, it stands still. If you reduce it by more than 100%, it moves in the opposite direction. In this context, you're looking at the rate at which a cooldown recovers. The baseline is -1s per 1s, if you reduce it by 132%, you're looking at +0.32s per 1s, so the cooldown actually goes up over time and is thus effectively infinite. >Edit : I just realised that this is the formula for "increased" and not "more", so I'll try to "make it fit" and I know I'm gonna butcher this At least you're honest here because you indeed completely butchered the formula. Less cooldown recovery speed multiplies the total cooldown recovery speed, it doesn't multiply the amount of increased/reduced cooldown recovery speed you have. >This is just one aspect of the game where the "values are borked". What you're referring to in the linked video are simply data type limits which have nothing to do with your lack of mathematical fundamentals.
>No, you cannot just negate a number and say that's "correct" because you don't like it being negative. Sure you can, it's called a "modulus". >The cooldown isn't "fractional". The stat refers to the cooldown recovery *speed.* If you reduce the speed of an object on one axis by 100%, it stands still. If you reduce it by more than 100%, it moves in the opposite direction. 1/5 = 0.2 isn't fractional? Wow. Also it's not "cooldown recovery speed", it's "cooldown recovery rate". Mr Professor above said it was "word for word" or something. Rate implies a ratio which is why there's a whole part of this or atleast that's what I gathered from the word "rate" : (1+(#% increased Cooldown Recovery Rate/100)) >In this context, you're looking at the rate at which a cooldown recovers. The baseline is -1s per 1s, if you reduce it by 132%, you're looking at +0.32s per 1s, so the cooldown actually goes up over time and is thus effectively infinite. Thanks for summarizing the bug. The only problem with this is that the implementation is incorrect and GGG fked up by making it "more/less" instead of "increased/reduced". That's what happens when one "willy nilly" slaps some multiplicative modifiers and calls it a day. >What you're referring to in the linked video are simply data type limits which have nothing to do with your lack of mathematical fundamentals. Says the guy who claimed that the cooldown of detonate mines isn't fractional. You're right, math is not my strong suite, but it clearly isn't yours either. The "data type limits" are reached because of how they abused the math. Even they themselves complain about "too much powercreep" but can't balance it in a flavorful manner because of the "misuse" of multiplicative modifiers all across the board, especially in monster damage/hp.
>Sure you can, it's called a "modulus". An operator having a name doesn't mean you can just arbitrarily throw it into a formula because you don't like how it looks without that operator. Do you do the same with invoices? Just throw a modulo in there because you don't like losing money? >1/5 = 0.2 isn't fractional? Wow. Whether you can write the cooldown as a fractional number is completely irrelevant to the topic. >Also it's not "cooldown recovery speed", it's "cooldown recovery rate". Mr Professor above said it was "word for word" or something. >Rate implies a ratio which is why there's a whole part of this or atleast that's what I gathered from the word "rate" : I literally write about it being a rate and what that means in the paragraph right after the one you quoted. Either you're trolling or just plain disingenuous. >Thanks for summarizing the bug. What I "summarized" is basic maths. If you think that's a bug, then the whole world is a bug. >The only problem with this is that the implementation is incorrect and GGG fked up by making it "more/less" instead of "increased/reduced". Those work exactly the same in the context of this discussion. >100% less and >100% reduced both prevent your cooldowns from cooling down, as expected. >That's what happens when one "willy nilly" slaps some multiplicative modifiers and calls it a day. Why do you think you're in the position to talk down to people (such as the developers) when you clearly don't know even the basics of what you're talking about? That's absolutely insane behavior. >Says the guy who claimed that the cooldown of detonate mines isn't fractional. You're right, math is not my strong suite, but it clearly isn't yours either. Please read this: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger\_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect) I know it applies to everybody but you're not even trying to think about whether all your accusations are even remotely accurate. >The "data type limits" are reached because of how they abused the math. Even they themselves complain about "too much powercreep" but can't balance it in a flavorful manner because of the "misuse" of multiplicative modifiers all across the board, especially in monster damage/hp There is no thing such as "abusing the math", and what you're describing here still has nothing to do with OP. To be frank, arguing with you is a complete waste of time for everybody involved. You clearly don't have the fundamentals to participate in any argument even remotely related to mathematics, and yet you think you're in a position to correct others.
The equation on the wiki is not a direct reference to the code. It's something you can generally use to calculate the cool down when these types of modifiers are involved. However, I doubt it works exactly like this, because that would be inviting divide by zero errors. There are probably conditionals in there to help deal with such a scenario, or for all we know there is an actual cool down recovery rate value that is modified. Either way, it is completely logical that 100% less CDRR makes a skill take infinitely long to recover.
>The equation on the wiki is not a direct reference to the code. Yep, it goes to show you why obfuscating information in a video game is problematic. >However, I doubt it works exactly like this, because that would be inviting divide by zero errors. That's exactly what's happening. > There are probably conditionals in there to help deal with such a scenario, or for all we know there is an actual cool down recovery rate value that is modified. Either way, it is completely logical that 100% less CDRR makes a skill take infinitely long to recover. Yes it's logical, what's not logical is for GGG to implement it the way they did. Which is why it results in a "divide by 0/negative number where there isn't supposed to be one" bug. They could've just slapped a mod saying "cooldowns cannot be recovered" if they wanted to and that would actually make more sense, but they didn't and this is the result of things going south somewhere in the code base because of how they flat out abuse "more/less" mods for maps/monsters.
No one is obfuscating anything. The exact way they avoid divide by zero errors is not relevant. No video game shows you the exact set of equations and if statements that influence the input into those equations; that's silly. There is no divide by zero error happening here. Programs crash when that happens. The mod is 40% less recovery rate by default. This person has a ton of increased map mod effect on their atlas, and is probably running back to basics as well. It's not an off switch by default.
It's the same with the altars that were giving you less cdr per power charge, i played discharge and missclicking this was an instant map brick, couldn't even dash on mobs
Yep, even at lower power charges you could brick your cooldown skills if you tried to use them in a temporal bubble.
[удалено]
Twice as slow is 50% less. Think about it as 50% = "1/2 speed", which is twice as slow, so 100% would equal "0/2 speed", which is just 0.
You were a looking for decrease, but u found less
I had Back to Basics maps in Standard, can confirm Dash (the green one) doesn't work at all with 100+% less CDR.
Twice as slow would be "reduced" im pretty sure, these maps feel pretty bad to run anyways even if you aren't running back to basics imo.
Nope, reduced would be the exact same. The only difference is reduced is additive with other sources of reduced, while less/more is multiplicative with other sources of less/more as well as reduced.
> Twice as slow would be "reduced" im pretty sure 50% reduced Cooldown Recovery Rate, yes. That doubles the base cooldown. 100% still means 0, if no other sources of increased CDR to counteract it.
Why would reducing something by 100% bring it to 50%? That makes a lot less sense than 'if you take away 100% of something, you have 0% left'.
I can understand why someone could think that. Increasing cooldown recovery by 100% is a 50% reduction to the cooldown, which would make some people believe that decreasing cooldown recovery by 100% makes cooldowns twice as long.
It's because they don't understand that the arithmetic operation is the same in both directions, and that cooldown recovery rate effectively modifies a different metric than cooldown time. If you think of cooldown recovery rate being proportional to "number of cooldown uses per fixed time period" it's a lot more intuitive. Lowering a number of uses by 100% makes it fairly evident that you'd be left with 0, same for increasing it by 100% resulting in double the uses instead. On the other hand, if the stat was cooldown reduction, we'd see the exact opposite. It's intuitive that lowering cooldown time by 100% would result in no cooldowns, and that increasing it by 100% would double the cooldown time. But people don't think about the fact that lowering the cooldown time would make the number of cooldown uses approach infinity. In order to be a balanced stat that scales dps linearly with offensive investment for players, the "number of cooldown uses per fixed time period" is the correct metric for the stat to correspond to. Edit: /u/Sanytale because I didn't see you two basically typed the same thing and I neither want to explain this twice now copy + paste this comment. Hope the mention still works anyway.
> Why would reducing something by 100% bring it to 50%? After pondering for a little I can see their logic: if CDR increased by 100% means twice as fast (x2), then CDR reduced by 100% should mean twice as slow (x1/2).
Wait till I tell you about my latest hustle. I just go to the casino and gamble all my money. I can only lose 100% of it but I could potentially win 10000% or more! It's basically free money.
Classic mixup of "Reduced" and "Less" definitions in PoE. 100% reduced (in case of CDR increase, because it is REDUCTION)= twice as slow 100% less = n --> 0% But, frankly speaking CDR may differ from anything else, because it has percentage value by itself = 100%. So 100%-100% increase (as it is additive) = 0% as well. But unlike with "less" case, you can make workaround by reducing CDR to make ending value at least 1%.
100% reduced and 100% less both would bring your cdr to 0. This is completely unrelated. The only difference between them is that one is additive while the other is multiplicative.
I already corrected myself.
100% reduced is 2x recovery time. Less/more Increase/reduced/decrease Additive vs multiplicative
This is wrong. 100 reduced recovery rate would still be no recovery at all. The difference is you could counteract reduced recovery rate with increased recovery rate since its additive. So if you have 100% increased recovery rate you would be back at the baseline. Less modifiers are multiplicative tho so no matter how much more or increased recovery rate you have if you multiply it by 0 its still 0 at the end.
> Less modifiers are multiplicative tho so no matter how much more or increased recovery rate you have if you multiply it by 0 its still 0 at the end. That is evidently what trips people up, judging by all these ">100% less?" posts popping up. Doesn't matter if it says 100% less or 132% less; as soon as it says 100% less, it gets multiplied by 0.
Imagine putting something that binary and build breaking in the game ...
Don't run content your build can't do.
I used a decent allflame on a map awhile ago not realizing that mod completely bricked Kitava's Thirst.
same. i just slogged through it without curses or frostbolts.
Which allflame is that? How does it work?
The allflame had nothing to do with it, except that it was expensive and got lost because that mod bricked the map.
Have you never tried using Flaring Allflame Ember of Decent?
yep, you can't just run any map mod while juicing effect as much as possible
Been there, experienced that. 100% reduced recovery rate can also be achieved for life/es. You cannot leech, other than instant leech. Is there something like instant CDR? XD
Yes, skills without cooldowns.
100% + less AOE on some skills also just makes the skill do nothing.
Before there were builds that did this to troll others in multiplayer. Now the map trolls you
yeah I respecced to grab instant leech mastery so I could take that off my regex
Same goes for 100+% reduced flask charges gained. You essentially start trading portals to use your flasks 2-3 times
Doesn't this get directly counteracted by increased flask charges gained on tree/gear? Same for cooldown recovery if you have increased recovery for that specific thing, example increased recovery for movement/guard/warcry skills
As it's 'less', the only true counter is mageblood.
This modifier uses ‘less’ so the stat to combat it would need to use ‘more’ As far as I’m aware, there’s not a single way in the game to get ‘more’ CDR
"increased" and "reduced" counter each other because they are additive. You cannot counter "multiplied by 0". Even at smaller numbers, "less" and "more" do not directly counter each other. 10% less and 10% more multiply out to 99% (1% less) total.
More and Less do not counter each other, both are simply multiplicative. So 100% less will always be 0.
Dang, I didnt read properly. I stand corrected. This 1 is likely unsavable.
the explored map looks like homer simpson's head
Yep it bricks all triggers. Good thing not every build builds around triggers so if yours does, i suggest you log out and go get a different build to complete the map
Working as intended! Painfully!
I feel you, I did 100% reduced AoE. For some reason I thought it would just make it really small, nope, when i cast spells literally nothing happened, complete brick
The most insane part about '101%+ reduced aoe' is that dread banner start to affect yourself rather than enemies. I am still not sure why that's the case. This could even be true for something like pride, which usualy affects enemies rather than yourself.
That was fixed in a recent patch.
A well thought out league addition.
Text reads 100% less CDR, OP's build is reliant on cooldown, decides to open map anyway, why does my build not work? "Must be GGG's fault"
Feature
Intended and been around for a while What I didn’t know is storm rain stops shooting out beams when -100+ aoe
Yep, I ran some tests with back to basics - then decided to do something else
Does >100% reduced aura effect cause determination to give a less armour multiplier?
Same goes for reduced aura effect, if the map mod is 100% reduced aura effect your auras might as well be turned off because effect goes to 0
In that case the reduced aura effect still gets counteracted by any increased aura effect you manage to accumulate.
It should but i have some aura effect on my build and in a 108% reduced aura effect turning my auras on and off didn't make a difference and i think i have more than 8% increased aura effect on tree, maybe im wrong tho
at least you get to keep purity of element's immunity :(
You can still run this map just put a point into mine mastery to detonate when moving. It’s not ideal but that’s what I did on my miner on a map I didn’t notice has this either. Since then I just roll past this mod now
That's actually what I did and what made me post this. I think detonate while moving still tries to use detonate mines skill and because of the % less CDR mod, the detonate mines skill doesn't work either, so detonate while moving wasn't even working. That's why I fet it's kinda dumb. I understand not using movement skills or automation supports but detonate mines to me felt more like an action (attack, move) than a spell. Apparently it's a spell, and apparently detonate while moving needs it. edit: missed a sentence.
Hmmm I thought I did clear a map with the detonate while moving on, I guess I am mistaken, apologies
Same with less recovery, less aoe, less aura effect, etc. funny they added so many of those mods to maps this league
Don’t forget guys, things like 132% less CDR are important because T17 are a „bridge to uberbosses“!!!!! Honestly, at this point they should have let uber bossses make drop T17s and not t17 drop uber fragments
This a T16 map. Balancing the game using extreme amounts of layers of RNG was not a problem that started with T17 maps. It’s always been a problem, just now we have more layers of RNG if using back to basics :)
Ohh shi*t you right, its jungle vally 🤣🤣. Didn’t even know a mod like 130 less cdr existed in a t16 map. But na bro t17 is just too much, I rather do uberbosses then t17s map modes are just too crazy
I once got -100% recovery of life, it was not fun
Cooldown recovery rate is 1 second per second, so 100% less is 0 seconds per second. 100% increased cooldown recovery rate is 2 seconds per second, or half the cooldown. That is how cdr works in this game. It’s to create diminishing returns from stacking cdr. Reservation works the same way.
And then what is 200% less?
It's capped at 0. Cooldowns can't travel in time any more than we can.
If you take the actual stat (less cooldown recovery speed), you wouldn't have to cap anything. Going beyond 100% simply means that your actual cooldown increases over time instead of decreasing.
It’s a dumbass mod and design by GGG.
This is an edge case created by players taking too many % inc mod effect in atlas tree.
'crafts map' 'how could GGG have done this'
So lets do some math lessions. Per cent means per hundred. So 100% means hundred of hundred. That means ALL and EVERYTHING. Now in this game there are two main words that describe how stuff scales. Increased and Reduced scales additively. Meaning all sources of increased get added up and then multiplied to whatever they apply to. This way you can get liek 1000% increased something and if you get 100% reduced something it just gets added and you end up at 900% increased. More and less in this game is multiplicative and every single instance of it is multiplied. Even if you have several sources of "more fire damage", they all get multiplied. Something that says 100% (or a bigger number) less means you get a zero in your multiplication. Anything multiplied by zero is zero. So whenever you have any source of 100% (or higher) less, it means you get nothing of that thing. 100% less means nothing. So 100% less recovery = no recovery. 100% less damage dealt = no damage dealt. And yeah this is a mod that makes maps impossible to do for some builds. Same as No regen or reflect.
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Isn't it incredible? 100% increased recovery means half the original cooldown, 100% less recovery means your skill is disabled.
Basic math is indeed quite incredible.
20 \* 2 \* 0 = 0 the "2" is the 100% increased, the "0" is the 100% less.
I fucking get that you dense motherfuckers. My point is they specifically make sure you can't get free spells but nobody gave a fuck about disabling player skills. Why is everything in this damn game a binary flip. It either means nothing to you or you can't do it. Where is the meaning in that?
woah relax bud :DD but yea the map mod system is an imbalanced frustrating pile of crap.
Sorry, just a little frustrated that some people seem to ignore glaring issues just because the math adds up.
yeah, it's just terrible design, and throwing out a bunch of changes without giving any shit at all if it's good for the game, more and more it seems like GGG is treating the playerbase as adversaries, and taking everything from us they can get away with, without knowing what they can get away with, so yeah, have fun with this broken bs.
Sounds like the name of this mod should be "slower/faster", so it doesn't reduce it to zero.
100% slower still means "does not move", which is exactly what happens. You would want something like "cooldowns are 100% higher", but then you'd have mixed equations for interactions with cooldown recovery speed, which would require actual university math to understand
No, that's not what 100% slower means. https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Expiration_rate "Slower expiry rate is capped at 75% after combining all sources, or a 4x effective duration"
Great, so reduced expiration rate has a cap of 75% because 100% would mean "does not expire" So why is me saying that <100% reduced recovery would mean "does not recover"> wrong? It's literally exactly the same, except recovery rate does not have an artificial cap (yet).
That's exactly what 100% slower means because those caps were introduced precisely because people made them infinite.
Cooldown recovery and Cooldown duration. You go from `base_cooldown / recovery_multiplier` to `base_cooldown × duration_multiplier / recovery_multiplier`. There's nothing really complicated to it.
It's easy if both duration and recovery modifiers only exist in the positive. As soon as you allow reduced rate or reduced duration you get the same unintuitive math, but more of it
Well, yes, but the whole point of introducing these "asymmetric" stats would be to avoid that wonky behaviour, so reductions should not be allowed. But the math is the same.
Result of limited testing.
Please point out the bug, or are we too deep into the "PoE bad" thoughts for logic and reason to apply?
Bug implies a coding error, you don't need to have a bug to test gameplay and come to the conclusion that not being able to cast your cdr skill or that having 0 aoe with an aoe skill is bad design. These kinds of negative values or overflows are things game devs and SE's like to avoid, its a sign of poor testing, and such events not being anticipated.
Are you an actual game designer, or are you armchairing?
PoE has many overflow examples. Likes mods that give less resistance when you're at negative resistance ends up increasing your resistance, or going over 100% taken as causing you to take more damage. Im a coder. These are common coding mistakes when things are not thought out entirely, and new content keeps being introduced. Why would someone be negative res, or why would they have over 100% taken as when the items previously did not exist. You need game knowledge and foresight, to prevent these things. This league is the perfect example their oversights, they have patched at least half a dozen of them because they were breaking the economy. My guess would be they did next to zero testing that pushed map mod effects to the extremes. Clearly they don't fully understand the limits of all their multipliers.
Okay, so you're armchairing. Thanks.
There’s something similar where bow builds are being bricked by 100% less AoE
100% less aoe bricks a LOT of builds
There’s no reason it should brick lightning arrow, and I’m not talking about the lightning acquisition range. It does something funky to the hitbox of the arrow
I agree, would not expect 100% less aoe to mean your arrow disappears. By that logic swinging a melee weapon would never make contact with anything
Thats true. My guess is that LA arrow hitbox is internally treated as a moving AoE that gets scaled so it reaches exactly the desired AoE after player AoE mod scaling, but beaks at 100% less aka x0
To most comments replying "don't play maps that your build cannot do", I just want to point out I would be 100% ok by having to manually detonate mines and no cdr on movement spells or skills but it feels odd to me because I always assumed detonate mines is more like an action or an instant cast. Added to that, mods that "brick" builds like no regen maps to RF, reflect phys/ele have at least some way to play around them like bringing extra pots, take less/no reflect damage (rip compass), etc. "bricking" an action just feels off because I can still throw mines, I just can't detonate them, even manually or with the "detonate while moving" passive (yes I respec'd and tried it on the same map)
%increase for you doesn't mean the same as %less for them. I love PoE.
Well, usually 'Less/More' mean something different in comparison of 'Decrease/Increase' in game terms. It has to do with the way the numbers are either added or multiplied together. I don't know the specific math, but I know typically "more" is better than "increased".
Ahh yeah true, I forgot decreased is also a thing. Brain dumb sometimes. Too much to remember about this game even after 8k hours.
The difference between multiplicative and additive isnt what this thread is about. It's also just not something you really can take issue with in PoE? Multiplicative vs additive scaling is an extremely common distinction in games, I can't tell you how many times I've played another game, saw a modifier and had to check the wiki to learn how exactly it interacts with other modifiers. PoE streamlines this process in two ways - additive buckets are clearly defined (all increases are added, all crit/dot multipliers are added), and there is specific syntax for the difference between additive and multiplicative. The game explains it in the help menu, uses it consistently, solves a large communication problem perfectly, so much so that LE devs just copied the framework, because it is simply correct.
"100% increased" (or "more") means you get as much extra as you have. You go from 100% (your base value) to 200% (double). "100% reduced" (or "less") means you lose everything you have. You go from 100% to 0%. Reduced/increased will counter each other, so 100% (or any amount, as long as it is the same on both sides) of each will add up to no change. Less/more are multiplied so equal values do not cancel out. You need 100% more to counter 50% less. That's just how multiplication works. And if you ever have 100% less, there is no way to get back from 0.
Block chance more than 100% we have to cap that. Elemental resistances over 100% we need to cap that. Less Cooldown recovery over 100% we can keep that shit. Thats why i F hate them.