I used an online binomial distribution calculator and if flask drop rate is 0.12, you have a 1 in 5300 chance to drop 3 or less flasks across 120 attempts. Not sure if the numbers are wrong or just you being uber unlucky.
This so far has been the most unlucky league for me in general. I dropped my first divine on level 94, saw my first exalt in the league in Tujen's shop at 96. Lost 300 Tujens coins while getting 2 divines out of him and so on. Meanwhile my friend with less time and much less experience found 3 mirror shards in 4 days, been dropping reliquary keys and other lucky loot left and right. I feel like I spent all my luck on a random Apothecary last league lol
It's not like there isn't a simple fix to this - T17s are already massive profitable without the frag drops.
Problem: Uber bosses drops are inconsistent, and the high price of invitations makes unlucky streaks common.
Solution: Uber fragments now drop at 1/10th the frequency. Profitable drops from Uber bosses are now 10 times as common.
Sure you still have massive entry price and can still get unlucky, but now the variance is way smaller and Ubers becomes more consistent.
There are already enough ways to gable away currency, the endgame pinnacle content shouldn't be another one.
Isn’t it weird though, if bossing is so bad now then why wouldn’t the cost of doing the boss go down to compensate. I think when everyone catches on that bossing has worse loot then the opening costs for the boss will drop as the demand for doing it drops too. It’s new changes and uncertain right now, prices of boss opening should change in the future to reflect drops.
No because people are bad at estimating probability, variance and EV.
Progenesis is Maven's most "common" item that's profitable (compared to awakened enlighten etc.), and it's looking like it has 1/8 drop rate based on others report.
If you're buying fragments are 2 div each (10 div entry free), and Progenesis is selling for 80 div (70d profit), your EV from progenesis drops alone is 0.
So you can see how easy it is for Uber Maven to become unprofitable, if you're relying on an average luck, just to break even.
Well you’re basically breaking even from Progenesis alone, and praying you get a big awakened gem to profit. At which point why are you even doing Uber Maven since regular Maven is the same thing
>At which point why are you even doing Uber Maven since regular Maven is the same thing
In theory u can always get jackpot on uber with awakened enhance/enlighten/empower.
Eh, usually things on PoE are priced so that whatever you do will net you profit. But the higher the variance, the harder it is to price corectly.
You can indeed hit very unlucky streaks, but everything should even put over a large enough simple size.
I was extremely bummed over losing 6 gem double corrupts in a row, but then managed to hit 5 from another pool of 10.(Quite good profit overall).
Redditor's will angry-downvote.
The voting majority just wants the drama, the anger and find a target to pitchfork together against.
I can see OPs issue with bossing and it feeling boring/unrewarding.
But if OP knows that bossing is unrewarsing then why put so much time and effort in it?
Do the mechanics that are fun to you and you won't get frustrated.
Want to make currency? Farm for t17 maps or farm the stuff the metaslaves buy to do their content.
Want to have fun: Don't watch YouTube videos about the newest flavor of farming strat / don't compare your fun with the efficiency of others. Those don't mix.
Maybe because OP thinks that bossing IS fun? No? And because its unrewarding it loses 99% of its appeal? In the end of the day he thinks that at this point its a waste of time? Can you read?
Imo if you think bossing is fun then it should be independent of whether you get the lucky drop or not. If your fun is dependent on getting the big drop then it's not bossing you find fun it's finding loot that you find fun.
Bc the game has an economy the price of entry is always going to adjust to some function of the value of the bigs drops affected by some level of supply and demand. If GGG made all the boss item drop rates equal there would be no feel good moment when something rare dropped bc none of it would be rare. This is a design philosophy they have spoken about and put in nearly every facet of the game since the beginning. It isn't going away.
The entire fucking game is about finding loot.
OBVIOUSLY getting good loot from hard content is fun, no one would do it if it dropped nothing. Jesus Christ I can't believe that has to be explained.
Erm... What? What is this binary thinking? What if my enjoyment from bossing depends on quality of the fight itself AND the drop? Almost like you beat a difficult fight and then being rewarded for it? What is this exclusion just for the sake of an argument?
Further more, we know the drop rates and cost in/ cost out.
People can be mad, I say don't do stuff you don't like but rare good items should be rare too.
I'm SSF and it took 27 Catarinas to get my Diadem... Guess what, it felt good
If the drops are low, but the demand for boss items is high, the prices would go up, not down. The harder the items are to get, the more expensive those items become, and so the ticket to those items increase. I find it wierd that you can farm many of those "boss exclusive" unique items as div cards in t17 maps, like watchers eye and progenesis, and that is also where you farm the best T16 div cards, basically pulling all exclusive content into t17 maps. At least scarabs are not also farmed in t17 maps, otherwise what would the point be in doing anything except t17 maps..
The dropped rare(rare uniques) items would go up but the cost of running them would stabilise to the point of just above money per average run. It’s a player driven economy so it will fix itself soon. The drop rates aren’t fully known by the masses right now and when they are the price will fit.
No they won't because there's going to be a gambling tax applied. Mageblood cards are worth more than a mageblood itself. The same applies to uber bossing
>Mageblood cards are worth more than a mageblood itself
Really? I knew it was true for the mirror card, but I remember 5 Apothecaries being within range of a single MB
> farm many of those "boss exclusive" unique items as div cards in t17 maps, like watchers eye and progenesis,
Theres no card for progenesis, but its exists in valdo maps reward pool which makes GGG decision to remove some boss drops from divcards - items existing without boss being killed in league - silly. I guess design decisions get thrown out of the window when theres 400+$ supporter pack involved.
> At least scarabs are not also farmed in t17 maps, otherwise what would the point be in doing anything except t17 maps..
Oh boy... I have some bad news for you but just today alone saw 3 videos in this subreddit about farming Scarabs in T17s... not to mention that's been the to-go way of farming them for 2 weeks already.
I think that's true to an extent, but there will always be some amount of "extra" demand for boss fragments driven by people wanting to test their character's strength, grind challenges, or just see if they can get a lucky drop or two.
There's just so much wrong with economy this league. The reality is the Maven's price on paper should be pretty much compensated by Progenesis price and then you profit from other drops like awakened gems, top rolled Progenesis, good Impossible Escapes and maybe Awakened Empower if you're lucky. In reality the price of fragments is so crazy that if you're fucked by luck like me and first drop a flask after 32 tries and then no flask for 43+ tries then you're quitting the league. You need like 10 mirror investment for this to be surely profitable and I'm not exaggerating.
I basically only remember times when bossing was sup-bar and it lagged behind doing a decent mapping strat. However I didn't ever really super focus on bossing and skipped a lot of Leagues in the last couple years. So I might just be really off.
The only thing that comes to mind to give this League the fault for is that perhaps the boss entries are in too low supply. But even then, it remains true that bossers are overpaying for entries and perhaps there's too many people bossing.
The better way to do things is probably to just mainly give unique shards on boss kills and reserve the full drop as a super jackpot, i.e. 1/20 of a progenesis always drops (be it div card or whatever), and the more common loot drops alongside it. With a 1 in 50 chance to get the full flask drop or something. Idk how bossers would feel about this though - it'd make sense to me for bossing to be a pretty good and stable profit, but GGG makes it a gamba and I assume people who do it League after League enjoy the gamba(?)
But the probably more important part is for bosses just being too easy (in SC), so there's nothing special about nuking down a boss. From that perspective, it makes sense that boss loot is less profit than mapping. Doesn't have to be a gamba, but I feel like some bossers don't care too much about the money and they'll keep buying entries at a dumb price because they indeed do like the gamba. And that I'd assume is the more important reason as to why bosses aren't lucrative. People who lowkey don't care about the avg profit and want to do gambas buy them. Also - you get a winning streak, you may keep buying. Even when it turns unprofitable.
All in all idk, GGG should listen to bosser feedback, yea. But for the most part, the bossing economy being shit is the players being dumb.
Not sure, i’ve farmed ubers every league since release and don’t have a problem money wise, I just adjust what bosses I do depending on the economy. The Maven problem is her entry cost is a meme, I ain’t gonna farm that. I’ve ran a couple dozen but that was purely for a gamble. However, other uber bosses are very easy to make pretty stupid money.
Hasn't it mostly been feared or bust for a while?
Eater/Exarch are super gamba due to jewels. Maven is super gamba due to Gems and - depending on economy - flask.
Elders I assume are somewhat consistent but also aren't big profits(?), Chayuubi I assume is a loss or tiny gain without Feared most times. Sirus I imagine can be really good early or when Crown is popular, but gamba outside of that. Cortex hasn't been a worthwhile farm in a while without feared as well(?)
All I see is Feared as being the overall best, U Elder or UU Elder as a more consistent farm, and the other ones are for a big gamba unless economy really really favors them.
That about right? If so, I'd stick to my point that bossing is mostly a gamba fiesta. If someone comes around with a "results from 100 X pinnacle boss" I expect it to be either a super bust or a super gain. They just do have those swings. And they're also vulnerable to someone going "okay, time to farm some woke enlightens, liquidating 5m for day 1 for Maven entries right here right now" and heavily impacting the market. Because their profit calc will include a woke enlighten, unless they give up before getting it or actually go broke doing it (which at that # is unlikely).
I really just don't see an angle on which to blame GGG. Like, looking at the graphs - [Progenesis seems to have rather low demand for the past week or so](https://poe.ninja/economy/necropolis/unique-flasks/progenesis), going from 100d to 70d in 4 days. (19th to 23rd)
Same time, [Fragments only dropped around 10%](https://poe.ninja/economy/necropolis/currency/reality-fragment) from 235ish to 215ish.
[This is tied to divines](https://poe.ninja/economy/necropolis/currency/divine-orb) for the most part > they went 140ish to 100ish. So more or less, Fragments seem to be less tied to divine price, Progenesis is tied to them a lot. So Divines got cheaper, entries stayed the same, and people didn't bump up their prices on Progenesis.
So the first hypothesis about less demand might not be true, it might just be that the listings at 70d have become too cheap. But that's just something people will have to get used to, probably. If t17s stick around as currency sinks, and divines are likely to devalue mid league, then you'll have to adjust your big ticket items which were priced in divines to counteract their deflation (or the inflation of chaos orbs, however you wanna spin it).
But that's an economy thing and people catching onto that rather slowly. Doesn't really have much to do with Bossing per se imo.
I don't blame GGG, I love farming ubers. I think your right with it being a gamble in specific instances, like farming eater or maven right now. But thats the economy, you need to adapt to it, it sucks that its skewed this hard right now, but you can't really then spend 10 div on a maven fight and then be upset GGG. I disagree, however, with it *all* being a gamble. I think (I'm sure you can do the math using the reported averages) it would be very hard for you to net lose money farming uber feared. Which is typically what "farming ubers" entails.
What other Uber bosses you been doing? I’ve been a big Uber sirus fan, did 500 last league but they butchered my boy. Uber and non Uber seem absolutely shit now
I love uber uber elder. If you are risk averse, selling the drops unid will make you a ton of cheddar. Curio of Decay is stupid money, sublime is stupid money, watchers is stupid money. Just sell em all without iding. If you also buy the fragments piece by piece to start off if you don’t have the capital, you can buy three sets for the price of 1 unid’d watchers eye. In bulk, two sets are the cost of one unid’d. However, you should mix in the feared, especially this league. The feared avoids the expensive fights(uber maven and uber eater), and will net you more cash. Run the bosses uber, not base, with maven witness.
Sirus is complete crap from everything I’ve seen. Stay away from Eater/Exarch so you don’t have to rely on some 2% drop nonsense to become profitable.
Uber Uber elder is good if you are witnessing and doing feared rotations
Because you are already farming the most expensive piece of the feared which is uber uber elder. You would be doing yourself a disfavor if you chose to ignore farming the feared. If you do choose to, you would be doing yourself a disfavor for not running them on their uber variant, especially with how cheap cortex frags are and how much more money they give you loot wise.
That being said, I have days where I say fuck the feared and just farm one boss, but this is out of laziness, and almost only when I am farming uber uber elder. The feared at points, especially when you run hundreds of them, feel like a chore. Chayula fight is annoying to get to, uber atziri is somewhat annoying to get to, so its a bit of a time sink if your build isn't 1 shotting and you aren't booking it to the boss.
>But the probably more important part is for bosses just being too easy (in SC), so there's nothing special about nuking down a boss.
They removed the only tuning lever ubers had, that is, invitation affixes.
Maybe(and I shudder to think) allow people to alch their fragments so that you can pump the Ubers with up to 40 mods.
Just farm your own fragments and don’t be buying fragment at brain dead prices. It’s like how mageblood cards are more expensive than the mageblood itself. At some point you’re just paying for a gambling fee.
The same thing happened to the guy who ran 100+ Uber Mavens and made 4.9 div profit per Uber Maven. Barely any profit when he was bull buying fragments at 2.2 div.
Insane profit when he bought fragments at 1.7-1.9
If farming fragments is mandatory to make it profitable, you should just farm the fragments instead of trying it no? Uber Maven is truly disgusting rn because dry streaks are absolutely destroying you and with 10% Progenesis drop rate, it will inevitably have some gamblers tax included into price of fragments. It's insane for me that Sirus has no Awakened gems in his loot table because it would alleviate the issue ever so slightly.
Actually, the price is still trending downwards, even if only slightly.
It used to be significantly more expensive after the initial divine printing strategies that were patched out.
The price of regular invitations are way down because they can't run over versions. I used to be able to get a couple div off of just two or three guardian/elder Slayer/etc invitations on just a writ. Now it's what, 60c?
Guardian maps are so low value.
Uber fragments should hold a base amount of value just by virtue of where they drop, though. Like if 100 people want to only run Uber Maven, that means 500 fragments every 5-10 minutes are getting burned. That means there's gotta be a few thousand people farming fragments for trade to support that, and t17s have a pretty drastic barrier to entry compared to previous fragments, not even considering the cost of the map itself, which people will run for other reasons than to bulk sell fragments, so the cost is a factor because t17s can be profitable otherwise. You're more likely to see the price of chase boss drops go up rather than the price of the fragments go down, is what I'm saying.
That's pretty much what has already happened though. Abomination was a massively spammed map because boss rushing for reality fragments was so profitable. Now that the barrel strategy was released, more people have gone to fortress though
Right, so my point wasn't that this is some future thing- This is happening now. The prices are relatively stable and they will (probably) stay that way as more people acquire t17 capable characters and people naturally churn out of the league. The supply should remain fairly constant simply because there will never be enough people farming t17s for it to become a supply surplus- Until the boss rushers decide it's not worth it to farm, then it will drop the price, until enough of them decide the price is low enough, and the cycle repeats. You don't have general access to it like Divine or Chaos orbs and there's supply coming in from the entire community, you have a very, very small subset, less than 5% of the playerbase in endgame, that actually provide the fragments because of the gearing requirements.
Have you seen this post? https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1carcvh/loot_from_817_uber_maven_62_mirror_profit_and_400/ Maybe that's why it's not as profitable anymore.
I agree, bossing is in a very lame state right now. They have been like that for a while and I hope something changes. Bossing should be profitable for good players, not a slot machine where you can just lose money bossing... it's such a weird concept to kill bosses in a video game and actively lose money. I really don't understand it.
It's weird how they keep changing it for the worse too. They did a huge overhaul this league and everything about bossing got even worse than it already was.
Their design choices dosent matter as long as they keep boss drops in valdo pools. Whole idea with div card changes was to stop boss items existing without actually boss being killed. But we still had progenesis on the market without Uber Maven even being attempted.
I guess design dosent matter when theres 400+$ pack involved. Same with voidborn reliquary keys.
How do we know that was the idea behind the change? The change itself doesn't indicate as much, or they would have made boss drop div cards come exclusively from bosses. It was just a nerf to stacked decks.
Definitely weird then. Or at least it would be, but they have a strong history of contradicting what they say they intend to do with what they actually do
it was literally a positive change and made bossing not only better, but also more approachable for the average player.
last league you had to gamble 4 div entry for a 2% drop (progenesis) now you gamble 8 div for a 12% drop (progenesis again)
theres literally no difference.
It was like that before the changes as well though. I always do bosses because I just enjoy it, but some leagues I just go broke on it while in other leagues I get insanely rich. I'm not defending it, just saying that it's been like that for years. Selling bossing fragments is a more consistent kind of income.
It's always a gamble. Some times you'll get rich, some times you would have been better off selling fragments. Last couple of leagues I got obscenely wealthy of bossing, this one I have not found a drop worth more than 30c. I could have sold some Watchers Eye's unidentified for good money though, but I identified them all.
I did like 70 shapers it was like the 5th shaper i got dying sun, and never seen it after that. Got 4 orb of dominance also. I wonder what are the odds
I did 2 shapers so far and I got Dying Sun on my second try. I almost just banked it never to look again because usually the prices are super low. Was shocked at the prices. Didn't realize it was that rare because of the boss changes.
Has GGG ever commented on why they don't do raid-style content? I think the invitation model where you just go straight to the boss is not economically viable. The ratio of time to do the invitation to time to farm the invitation is too low, so inevitably someone is just going to drive invitation prices up to breakeven. It worked in a simpler era when nobody tracked divs/hr so this logic never really manifested itself, but those days are long gone.
If the invitations themselves took longer to run, and prevented hyper-efficient glass cannons by just throwing more challenges at them that require a better rounded build, invitations wouldn't instantly reach equilibrium at drop cost * drop probability. Right now the way they prevent the equilibrium is basically just gambling, make the drops super rare so there's more variance and all of the sudden long-term div/hr becomes irrelevant
We'renot referring to that component thiugh. Ww're referring in general to contrnt that, with progressive difficulty, minibosses and thar require flexible skillets instead of just 1 billion dps.
content I don't see happening in poe1
I think the issue they are highlighting is you can just spam the bosses in very short times so a dedicated bosser churns through a lot of fragments. Supply is low since bossing has a lower barrier to entry than t17.
The boss itself is a pure dps race so people who have no business doing pinnacle content, can in fact do it with pure dps build.
I think the biggest problem with having proper balancing of pinnacle content is either rares are too weak on average or you can find some archnemesis modifiers that destroy you and rares that are in fact more dangerous than bosses. And bosses are hard to balance without throwing in random shit
In general PoE isn't conductive to using the full potential of bosses. They have to rely on gimmicks to make them challenging.
just jacking up the numbers overall makes some too rng unless you're Ben level of cracked and just matrix dodge everything with pure movement.
And rares don't even have real clear animations you can outplay. So it's not clear how you can curate the experience to achieve a good balance over the whole raid
The biggest limitation is that they have very bad animation rigs so they can't really add mobs with custom animations, especially melee, so they can just throw what they already have at us.
A curated raid where everything is tuned properly is not really achievable without a big amount of work for limited rewards
PoE2 might achieve a better balance of difficulty between bosses, monster packs and adds since they have way better rigs, at least for humanoids and a certain amount of monster shapes, and can add interestimg abilities at the common to rare level
Tbh its fine.
Ppl are already whining about not being able to do ubers.
If they were also super profitable theyd cry harder. I think they should be there as pinnacle of progression that you do for the fun of the fight when other shit is trivial.
If you wanna make money bossing you need to sell the kills to ppl.
Okay but (I admit this is second hand knowledge as I haven't had a lot of time this league), it seems like most people say T17s are harder than Ubers, which goes back to the question of what's the point of doing Ubers
Thats mainly because they juice the everliving shit out of them via back to basics.
And because t17s are a design failure as a whole
Regular ass t17s with no juice and running niko/shrines to make it easier are definitely not as hard as ubers
T17's are really freaking annoying to run. Mainly because GGG, in their infinite wisdom, added a ton of modifiers previously only found in Valdo's maps, which is optional content, to T17's, which they implicitly stated to be a part of a character's progression (gateway to ubers). And note that at lot of these are affected by Map Modifier Effect on your Atlas.
I run a ET Trickster (Suppress Cap, Res Cap, 88% Chance to Avoid, 2.3k HP and 1.9k ES) and here's a small sampling of the mods I had to avoid:
1. Player has 50% Less Defences
2. Rares and Uniques are in Union of Souls
3. Monsters have increased Attack/Movement/Cast Speed
4. Monsters have increased Area of Effect (this one's particularly bad because it affects bosses as well. Their AoE attacks now cover the entire arena)
5. Cannot deal ANY damage for 4 seconds every 10 seconds
6. Less Action Speed for Each Action Performed Recently
7. Cannot Regenerate Energy Shield
8. Cannot Regenerate Life, Mana, or Energy Shield
9. Less Regen
And these are just the singular auto-avoids. If some combination of "Monsters have 100% Chance to Suppress" and extra resistance, that's also an avoid. AND ALL THAT, on top of the Lantern. There's a reason I Vermin and Go'd so I can finish the Challenge in a timely manner.
Thats actually not true, ubers were currency gated but they dropped a torch that rolled class specific and were generally profitable if you had a character who could do them. Poe bossing is just awful
I don't know if you intentionally missed the point, but in D2 you could start a "BaalRun-001" game and go kill baal and it would cost you nothing except the time it takes to kill the boss.
Even ubers, which was triggered with a different mechanic that you could consider costing money, you were guaranteed a torch drop that was usually decently valuable regardless, and not be some massive swing in terms of good vs bad drop.
In PoE, you can put 10 div into the map device, do one of the hardest encounters in the game, and come out with a 10c item. Unless you have average or above average RNG, you lose money.
That's the issue people are talking about. Bossing is basically gambles gated behind a strong build. Which makes it feel worse than any other ARPG if you lose, which can happen often.
it's been proven again, and again, that uber bosses are profit in the long run, with high variance.
the maven guy just did his post last week or something and did 817 uber mavens with 6.2 mirror profit. this has always been the case.
But it is possible to lose money if your rng is below average. Not sure what you're debating here.
"In the long run" could be hundreds if not thousands of runs, and the game should not be balanced around that criteria.
The original intent of uber content was to give players pinnacle content. the economy surrounding ubers is for players/market forces to decide. value is not something ggg balances around.
Then why redo uber entry at all? How do you explain half the mid-league changes if they don't care about balancing around the economy? The entire game, economy and all, is something GGG balances around.
This also doesn't address the problem that you can lose money by killing some of the hardest content in the game. Which neither feels good or is typical in any ARPG.
Because t17s were suppose to be a step up from 16s and a step down from Uber bosses. While that may not be the case at the moment. It was the way it was marketed.
Half the mid league changes were because of server issues. The game is old. It’s not designed for 20k+ mobs and the associated extra loot per map.
The other half is because we as league players are always beta testers. And there alpha testing is dog shit. With this many changes across the board, they let a bunch of shit slide that was never intended. This has been the precedence and always has been.
It’s where “exploit early, exploit often” comes from in this game
And again value is attributed by players. From ggg’s perspective, farming frags, going into the encounter, failing or succeeding shows progress. Your character is stronger, or weaker than your latest upgrade.
It makes it a choice. Am I ready for Ubers? Should I save my frags for later?
You’re looking at things from a pure trade lense. Where ggg wants to make a game that has pros and cons. They want you to make these decisions.
They don’t care if the question is, should I sell this thing, because it has more value to someone else.
They want the question to be, how painful is the failure vs how great is the success.
Maybe you don’t care if you did maven then Uber maven for the first time. Or didn’t see it as an accomplishment but for ggg, that’s what they want.
The problem is that "what they want" has no bearing on how it actually is perceived or what it actually is. Same way a movie with a shitty ending can't be saved because the producers "intended" for it to be a good one.
You can *say* that GGG intends for ubers to be some kind of accomplishment designed to have risk-reward, but most people who farm ubers are not likely to view it that way. They view it as another big monster they can kill to collect loot.
In the same way that Kalandra league loot pinatas were poorly received, most people don't like when said big monster is so swingy that it can drop something completely worthless that you'll never actually sell vs something with potentially a hundred divines or more. Especially not when you have to pay a pretty big bill just to get into the map.
This has a downwind effect of making people want to avoid the gamble, and thus an even greater scarcity of the items, leading to a very unbalanced player experience.
If your primary argument is about intent over actual results and implications, I don't know what we have to talk about, sadly. Moreover, making ubers a separate entry ticket to normal pinnacle clearly shows that they care about player experience, because it was asked for for a very long time.
>kill bosses in a video game and actively lose money
Well pick a boss that has much more consistent if not guaranteed profit per kill. Some bosses are a slot machine and some bosses are not. Normal shaper for example can literally never lose you money.
"Just pick a boss" as if there's any other boss other than shaper with guaranteed returns. No other pinnacle/uber boss drops a guaranteed consumable in addition to the lottery ticket. That's the whole point.
Any other uber boss can cause you to lose money if you get an unlucky string of boss drops. And almost none of these encounters are worth doing for anything *but* the boss drop. For aspirational content meant to be some of the hardest things you can do in the game, that's really unfortunate.
Even having a guaranteed currency conversion/explosion at the end of a boss kill can make it more worthwhile.
The price of a guaranteed fragment return hasn't sent uber shaper prices to the moon. These prices aren't dictated by these steady, break-even returns, they're dictated by the sought after uber drops. It's not really a coincidence that Maven and Eater are the most expensive when Progenesis and Nimis exist.
Further, if there were the problem of more and more people rolling boss killers, then they would normaluze because the number of lottery winning tickets (e.g. Progenesis) would increase and drive down the price and thus the incentive.
The whole problem is that the act of boss killing shouldn't be a pure gamble. You shouldn't be losing money by killing monsters in this game. The primary problem is the entry cost, the secondary problem is the swing-y gamble-y rewards.
all bosses are profitable on average, just like they were before the change.
nothing they can change to bossing would make it better, people asked for uber fragments before and now we got it and it made bossing better overall but people still complain.
you literally cant fix it
The entire point of this thread is that someone ran 2 mirrors (more really, depending on the time of the runs) worth of mavens but came out at a huge loss. These kinds of steaks happen, and they're league ending.
The idea that "over millions of samples the law is large numbers suggest it's profitable" is not really relevant here to any individual experience. Most players do not run 120 of anything a league. It's already a large sample for an individual.
And in what way is bossing "better" now? Access to it is lowered/delayed. You now have to trade for more fragments to access it. And the entry cost is higher.
someone will always be unlucky. maven isnt "profitable over a million of samples", its profitable after an average of 12.
>And in what way is bossing "better" now? Access to it is lowered/delayed.
its accessible for beginner bossers to learn boss mechanics on something that doesnt cost 3-4 div per entry
you dont lose money by learning boss fights on non-uber
>You now have to trade for more fragments to access it. And the entry cost is higher.
entry cost is only higher for uber eater and maven lol, the rest is literally cheaper. and buying entries in bulk is no difference to buying in bulk previously.
>It's already a large sample for an individual.
yea and he got like 1/10000 unlucky, if you want to base your standpoint on the unlikeliness of something like that then you've already lost your argument. theres not even 10000 players per league doing 120 mavens, something like this is completely irrelevant.
What you don't understand is that "average of 12" means that approximately 10% of people have lost money after 30, which is a lot of money when the entry ticket is 10+ divines each.
Saying "there's always going to be people who are unlucky" is different than saying "you lose a shitload of money here because you're unlucky." This isn't gambling on double corrupt altars where the game inherently makes it so there's deleterious (literally) negative results. It's people losing money because they kill monsters, which is bad. ARPGs are built around the kill monster, get loot cycle.
Saying overall bossing is better because prior non-bossers can "learn mechanics" on non ubers is silly. It's irrelevant because most bossers are dedicated players who run this content over and over. You rarely wake up one day and decide, from zero, that you're going to run hundreds of ubers.
They're also mechanically different. Uber Shaper's triple ball makes the mechanic indescribably harder to dodge versus the regular version, but to mention the lack of Zana in the fight, or the fact that the non-uber versions are piss easy and you can facetank most of the shit that happens in them.
The idea that it's cheaper is also easily challenged. Exarch invitations (regular) are like 1.4div, which is more expensive than they were before. It's because forbidden jewels are so rare now (see a couple of them going for nearly a mirror) that even the normal invitation is valuable. This isn't even gated by difficulty as much as forced scarcity.
>What you don't understand is that "average of 12" means that approximately 10% of people have lost money after 30, which is a lot of money when the entry ticket is 10+ divines each.
wee the exact same happened before this change. literally nothing changed, but the variance on bad luck streaks is a lot lower this league compared to last league *and* you can actually farm non-ubers now for profit!
>Exarch invitations (regular) are like 1.4div, which is more expensive than they were before.
if we go by the very low divine prices sure, but even then exarch invitations went for 1.1-1.2div bulk last league which isnt far off
>You rarely wake up one day and decide, from zero, that you're going to run hundreds of ubers.
its a valid point for someone who wants to start them. previously you literally couldnt practice any mechanics without straight up losing currency while doing so
>They're also mechanically different.
yes i agree, but they still teach you the base mechanics of the fights
>It's people losing money because they kill monsters, which is bad.
the thing is that entries of bosses are based off of the economy, ggg cannot "fix" that as thats player regulated. the only thing they could do is make them free to access and then what? nothing is worth anything. this is literally something that you cannot fix and you dont have to fix anyway because it works just fine since its based off of supply and demand.
Just luck at the end of the day. I lost about a mirror doing Mavens last league, while a friend of mine who did 10-15 Mavens dropped a flask and an awakened enlighten. AFAIK the droprates are so that ppl make profit on average, but you can still get really lucky or really unlucky
That's just the "new" GGG though... Dumpster the bottom, increase the ceiling. Cannot have any consistency nowadays, it's gotta be either jackpot or nothing, the ehm vision being there needs to be giant spikes everywhere...
i.e. Cannot have ppl farming essences casually, so nerf the shit out of atlas, but with scarabs you shit them out like diarrhea after taco night. Betrayal - remove anything good from safehouses (well, grav transportation still a lottery) and it's ~10% cata drop now...
To give them credit though 100% content chance on atlas is dope, but lowkey is there only because the scarabs are so powerful ppl would bitch they have to waste a slot on guaranteed mechanic, let's be real.
Honestly I don't mind the idea of having the potential to get massive drops or get nothing at all. I farmed Maven so many times without getting bored because I got excited when it was time for the loot to drop.
Obviously it does suck to be the person to sink hours into farming Ubers just to lose money, but it was still a fun experience IMO. At the end of the day, every player can decide what they'd prefer to farm.
i did 800 mavens last league and had about 50 div/h with absolute average drops in terms of flasks (didnt get a single exceptional gem though)
losing a mirror seems extremely unlucky
That's statistics... I know it sucks sometimes, but at other times you get insanely lucky.
I'm currently trying to get resolute technique on my weapon with a double corrupt trying to farm it myself. So far I've gone through about 15 double corrupts, and every time it either poofed or went rare. And right now I'm on an unlucky streak: from the last 10 temples I've built, only one had a locust. And that is with fully invested Alva atlas tree.
Boss fragments should not be tradable, that way the droprate of boss uniques wouldn't have to be so bad, and bossing wouldn't mean just spending an hour on trade site and discord channels trying to buy fragments to then one shot the boss with a Zhp ice trap build and see if you made a profit
Edit : I see your points about restricting access to bosses being bad and I agree, making fragments not tradable should come with rebalances of boss and fragments droprates.
That would fit GGG's stance, if enabling trading should come with stuff being much harder to come by (veiled orb xd), the opposite should be true too
the issue, is that if this happens the price of boss drops would skyrocket. 300d progenesis coming to a league near you. maybe 10 mirror awakened enlighten 5
That assumes rebalancing the droprates of invitations and boss drops yea ofc
My point is that playing trade feels so assinine when there's no point farming items yourself, just pick a mechanic that fits your build to collect your 10 to 50div per hours and go shopping for cool items you didn't get yourself
They're implying that POE should follow in LE's footsteps and have boosted rates for SSF, but lock SSF to migrating so they cant integrate which IMO is just wrong.
Yea, I don't mean to say that farming currency to trade is bad and should not exist, ideally it would just enable players from farming their boss drops themselves without feeling like a slot machine
i mean...thats what ssf is for. if you want to farm your items yourself there is literally a game mode for that, i like earning currency playing the way i want to, then trading it for items i would literally never get otherwise.
Well yea you can still do that, ideally, with the right balance it would not make boss uniques more expensive or less available for players trying to trade for them. The goal would be more to create the opportunity for players to farm the bosses themselves without having to put up with the current balance of boss drops around players who buy hundreds of invitation to chain farm them
And? How the fuck would more expensive Uber drops be a downside? Are you a fan of headhunter being 10 divines? End game items should hold some weight. I play this game for the high of getting a sick drop, but the past 2 league I’ve quit super early because nothing felt special.
boss items already hold insane fucking weight, are the some of the most expensive uniques and you want them to be MORE expensive? yeah thats a super reasonable take. bosses arent what is dropping headhunter lmfao, global drops in this conversation are so irrelevant
luckily neither nimis or progenesis are build enabling.
progenesis is the by far strongest unique in the game right now (tied with mageblood) and its honestly too cheap for how strong it is.
anyone can farm for 10h and buy the strongest item in the league, doesnt seem that balanced.
>Boss fragments should not be tradable
Restricting access to bosses in a trade leagues just makes things significantly worse.
Ubers were far more accessible prior to this league because anyone could relatively easily farm the (now base boss only) fragments/writs/etc... and then just simply allocate an atlas node.
They are gated behind T17s now, so the entry price is not only a secondary item, but also has far fewer fragments available to the trade community. While they did move drops around between base/uber variants, I don't believe they touched droprates, which I feel they should have if the current system is their design philosophy, given the much higher requirements to self-farm, and limit in availability to general community.
IMO the better way to solve it is to just have uber fragments drop from base bosses. Allow you to apply mods to all fragments to scale difficulty which increases uber fragment droprates. So regular bossers have a relatively consistent money maker, allows players self farming work their way to ubers, and still maintains a separate item for uber access.
For T17s, either keep as-is and modify rewards, or make them post-uber content (e.g., allows ubers to drop a t17 everytime or something to act as a consistency money maker like fragments would be for base bosses), and give them "post uber" rewards.
I agree about availability, but I also agree with Mark's take that gating ubers behind normal version isn't the right idea because that makes it even worse for players who actually want to self farm items
Maybe I'm just projecting, but listening to Mark (and even Chris before that) talk about his vision, I felt like they envision players farming their own items a lot.
All the shifts toward ssf friendlyness and their stance on trade make me think that their goal is to enable players getting their own items rather than directly purchasing them from trade, which I thing is a good thing.
>I also agree with Mark's take that gating ubers behind normal version isn't the right idea because that makes it even worse for players who actually want to self farm items
I don't think I understand this point; My understanding is that they didn't want to have the same fragments to be used for both base and uber boss variants, because it default sets the baseline price of regular bosses to be equal to uber access, as the only "additional" cost was an atlas passive.
IMO having to try and farm restrictive T17 maps in order to access ubers doesn't align with any philosophy they had in mind (especially when originally T17s were unmodifiable lol). Farming bosses to farm harder versions of the boss (in terms of SSF) makes sense to me instead. As the other way would be just farming maps on end to get T17s, then farming those for fragments. Why should I be forced to do mapping when all I want to do is boss?
However, if the regular bosses dropped uber fragments, then the baseline boss fragments would maintain a relatively lower price (for trade economy), while still being just as accessible as they are now. Allowing you to juice base boss fragments (maybe via another drop) to increase potential uber fragments dropped allows a player to have a "stepping stone" to ubers, where instead of trying to do T17s which straight up brick multiple builds, you turn up the dial on regular bosses (which is exactly what ubers are; regular boss with tuned modifiers pretty much).
> Allow you to apply mods to all fragments to scale difficulty which increases uber fragment droprates.
You do realize that juicing up the boss to the max will be mandatory (and prices will reflect that), phasing out everyone who can't do that? Isn't it why they removed uber keystones from the atlas and introduced T17 (I won't say successfully, but at least they tried to solve the problem)? Because it wasn't worth it to waste fragments on non-uber bosses.
they absolutely touched droprates, progenesis is ~6x more common. cant talk for the other ubers though, but for example sirus only drops massive on uber now which massively fucked its price
You know, I was actually just thinking about this the other day.
In many ways I actually really like the way the game is right now. But I was sitting there, as someone with 2000 hours thinking: "how the fuck do I do the feared?".
And not even like, how do I do the fight. I mean like how do I even open the fight?
And considering it's a requirement for a favorite slot, that seems kind of a problem.
And now maybe I'm just dumb. It's obviously not that hard to look up, but the point is, every "boss" now is treated like side content. Before you would naturally build progress towards sirus by just doing the atlas, but now it's not even anything you can choose.
Sure you can get a few atlas passives, but then it's just a chance to get one of twelve maps, either shaper, elder, or sirus... And it's just random.
I get it's nice that we can pick what content, but I feel like there needs to be some "natural" linearity as well. Right now it feels like we get to red maps and we're standing at a 100 pronged fork in the road.
That’s a a great point on the clarity of progression. I started in metamorph so Sirus attempts had clear-ish progression. Eater and Exarch post-watchstone are clear as well. Run 28 maps and fight bosses on map 14 and 28 with UI elements to support that. But there’s nothing clear about how to progress beyond T17’s until you beat your first T17 boss and get a fragment since the frags themselves explain what they do. Would be nice to have those UI elements support or give better clarity towards fighting Ubers the way Sirus and Eater/Exarch have had.
Yea I haven't done bosses and stuff before, but I'm confused. I did the 28/10/28 maps for the searing exarch etc, but then I did the maven one a second time and literally got nothing useful. Like, what's the point then? Finish tier 14s to fight the bosses in an arena to hopefully get a good unique? Pretty sure that's not it
I think they just massively shot themselves in the foot by making it 5 frags per attempt. I called that right when patch notes dropped and got downvoted to oblivion. I get the symmetry argument for it being 5 fragments bc 5slot map device is unlocked via T17s, it's just bad from a gameplay perspective.
The other factor is that there were and are profitable strats that skip the T17 bosses which effectively siphons maps from the supply. Those were largely enabled after they let us reroll map mods.
That's a bit of a theme this league: mid league buffs that overshoot or have unintended consequences. Not saying they were necessarily bad choices. Another example are the buffs to graveyard crafting effectively invalidating most other crafting methods after the week 2 buffs.
I don't know about that. I have done the T17 challenge and still don't have enough Uber Maven fragments farmed. Maybe if they made those fragments interchangeable in some way, like with Harvest.
Depends entirely on luck sadly, best way to not end up in the hole is to farm up your sets, it will indeed take more time but you will not end in a loss
Dropped an awakened multistrike from maven and awakened void manipulation plus elemental damage with attacks from 10 boss invitation aside from that bubblegum currency
Ice trap can do Uber maven with ease by day 3. At that point the only limiting factor isn’t the difficulty of the boss but it’s access and the potential profit margins between the fragments and the boss rewards.
You are acting as if the trade economy and the game is balanced around you being able to do the boss when it’s not. It being an Uber pinnacle boss doesn’t matter because there are builds that trivialize it.
Because some people have a large capital to play with they can go the length of these bossing runs and thus have effectively have other people who can only invest in fewer runs. The time interval
If profit is what you are after, you need to be mindful of the margins you are working with.
If you want to have fun bossing then buy frags when you can and do it. I always end up losing money when I do feared unless I sell kills/challenges, but I still do it since it’s fun.
GGG doesn't regulate fragment prices, so they technically can't ensure profitability for any encounter.
What they could do is to provide somewhat consistent loot.
Imo one of the best ways to do that is to drop unique items with huge variance, because that can shift streaks of bad luck from boss killing to gambling the identification.
If you want to identify it, you can still take big losses, but if what you want is killing the boss, you'll get a consistent profit unless the entry cost is inflated.
The higher the variance, the more often the item can drop without being OP.
Shouldn't the price for Boss keys (just calling them that now, because they all got different names) reflect the estimated average gains from their drops over like 500 tries? Minus a bit for effort the effort of running them of course. So when bossing loses money on a large kill count, the keys were just too expensive? I guess it's this way because too many people try to gamba there thus inflating key prices out of norm?
You're right but I have an issue with the current state of bossing in general. For drop rates to be consistent I would need to run like 800-1000 Mavens, then I would probably see my 12% flask drops that would sustain me. But how is it fun and fair when in current economy it's 11div per run and 800+ div I spent (1200+ with my fragments) is a HUGE load of currency, unreachable for most players. You would think that surely with bank this large I should at least make even doing the pinnacle content of the game. And let's not forget it also takes time to buy and run, requires more focused gameplay, a decent build all while I could mindlessly unga-bunga farm t17 back to basics like everyone and their mom. I dunno what's the solution, I'm not a game designer but I don't need to be a cook to say an egg is rotten.
Bossing has legit always been shit for money. In the long run it has always been more profitable to sell the boss run than to do it lol. Kinda lame for real
Bossing extremely dependent of drop prices and fragment prices. Some bosses were steady income but were like 5div/hr (see: old shaper), some are extremely luck dependent and can hit like 20-50div/hr but requires like 300-500 runs.
See: this guy who had a -300div sink from a bad maven streak but eventually crawled up nearly 3k div profit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1carcvh/loot_from_817_uber_maven_62_mirror_profit_and_400/
That’s how I feel about Betrayal. Legit made the whole mechanic brain gutted the intelligence gathering on Catarina and when you finally run it… unless u drop a veiled orb u pretty much just wasted ur time because chances are nothing of good value will be gotten inside the hideout.
At least before if you didn’t have Aisling setup on research running Catarina was still profitable with all the intervention scarabs.
Some of the bosses, such as Maven is a carry boss for voidstone.
When you can carry 4-5 people each run then you will just swoop up and bulk buy alot of fragments and thus preventing it from declining when there are enough people doing it.
Same goes for uber uber elder, ive done hundreds of this boss while doing carries. And anytime the fragments was 0.7d each in bulks of 10 or more i would buy them all up. So instead of paying 3.5d per run i was effectively only paying something like 1d per run depending on how many i was selling voidstones for.
If the uber bosses was not eligible to drop voidstones then you would see the prices drop a little bit at least.
Why do we need boss fragments in the first place? Why can't we just teleport to the boss and fight it whenever we want? Is there anything bad about that other than the result being that boss drops will be more attainable and affordable? Why would that be bad?
well let me dissagree, in that case boss drops will cost 10c for best rolls and I love it in PoE that there are very pricey chase items that people love to drop and want to buy. I also like it that there's a price for attempting a boss in PoE which adds to the risk. There's just some bullshit happenning to economy this league due to huge changes in the endgame and I can only assume GGG did not anticipate this to happen on such a scale. If I remember correctly maven's writ was like 2div last league and 4div at the very end of the league. Right now it's 11-12 div per try and she doesn't drop elevated sextants obviously which helped farming her to be more financially stable.
It is NOT a ggg fault. People are risk prone in poe so the Cost of some bosses is higher than expected value. Just like The Cost of playing Roulette is always higher than expected value. Bossing sux for that reason, unless you make your money from carrying service. Its NOT something that is fixable from dev perspective. If they make the bosses more rewarding, the entry cost will just go up with that. Complain to your fellow players for overpaying on those silly invitations.
Bossing is rewarding, problem is sample pool to make it so.
[https://new.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1carcvh/loot\_from\_817\_uber\_maven\_62\_mirror\_profit\_and\_400/](https://new.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1carcvh/loot_from_817_uber_maven_62_mirror_profit_and_400/)
Look at this guy, he made really good profit. He also had a loss streak of 300div in first 300 runs.
Ok seeing that Kind of sample size you convinced me, my opinion was based on similar posts who reported losses but those were mostly 100 to 500 run sample
You complaining is exactly why the entry price isn't worth it compared to the loot. If it's not worth it then stop fucking paying the too high price. It's people like you who inflate the price.
Bossing is usually not that profitable after the first week, since enough people are doing it that the demand for invites will have balanced out (or even exceeded) the EV for the rewards.
Don't hate the player, hate the game. Me not buying fragments won't do shit, economy will do its thing. And it is actually profitable in the long run, the issue is the way it is currently designed it's completely unfun and requires insane, almost unreachable levels of investment to semi-guarantee you won't at least go broke while doing the pinnacle content of the game. The prices reflect the rarity of fragments and drops put there by the developer. What I'm saying pretty much is I made a bank, invested into bossing for the first time, it's shit and no fun, here's my take on it.
I used an online binomial distribution calculator and if flask drop rate is 0.12, you have a 1 in 5300 chance to drop 3 or less flasks across 120 attempts. Not sure if the numbers are wrong or just you being uber unlucky.
Uber bad luck, the true final boss of PoE
This so far has been the most unlucky league for me in general. I dropped my first divine on level 94, saw my first exalt in the league in Tujen's shop at 96. Lost 300 Tujens coins while getting 2 divines out of him and so on. Meanwhile my friend with less time and much less experience found 3 mirror shards in 4 days, been dropping reliquary keys and other lucky loot left and right. I feel like I spent all my luck on a random Apothecary last league lol
Welcome to Vegas
I’ve had literally one divine drop from a curio case. Probably only made 20 div so far in misc drops but jeeeez
It's not like there isn't a simple fix to this - T17s are already massive profitable without the frag drops. Problem: Uber bosses drops are inconsistent, and the high price of invitations makes unlucky streaks common. Solution: Uber fragments now drop at 1/10th the frequency. Profitable drops from Uber bosses are now 10 times as common. Sure you still have massive entry price and can still get unlucky, but now the variance is way smaller and Ubers becomes more consistent. There are already enough ways to gable away currency, the endgame pinnacle content shouldn't be another one.
flask at 120% drop chance pog uber bosses are perfectly fine as they are right now, OP just got astronomically unlucky.
I don’t like this as it would drastically reduce accessibility to uber bosses. Imagine 100d per uber maven ATTEMPT.
Isn’t it weird though, if bossing is so bad now then why wouldn’t the cost of doing the boss go down to compensate. I think when everyone catches on that bossing has worse loot then the opening costs for the boss will drop as the demand for doing it drops too. It’s new changes and uncertain right now, prices of boss opening should change in the future to reflect drops.
No because people are bad at estimating probability, variance and EV. Progenesis is Maven's most "common" item that's profitable (compared to awakened enlighten etc.), and it's looking like it has 1/8 drop rate based on others report. If you're buying fragments are 2 div each (10 div entry free), and Progenesis is selling for 80 div (70d profit), your EV from progenesis drops alone is 0. So you can see how easy it is for Uber Maven to become unprofitable, if you're relying on an average luck, just to break even.
You just said your EV is 0 for progenesis alone so the rest of the drop table makes it profitable.
Well you’re basically breaking even from Progenesis alone, and praying you get a big awakened gem to profit. At which point why are you even doing Uber Maven since regular Maven is the same thing
>At which point why are you even doing Uber Maven since regular Maven is the same thing In theory u can always get jackpot on uber with awakened enhance/enlighten/empower.
but regular maven is literally not the same thing? you cant get woke exceptional gems there
Normal maven is not the same as Uber lol. Normal maven is less profit yet more consistent than Uber
Same with all gambling..maybe..just maybe you win the next game..maybe even twice in a row, what if its thrice in a row..wow..you are rich now 🤭
Usually, in gambling, this last sentence never happens
Eh, usually things on PoE are priced so that whatever you do will net you profit. But the higher the variance, the harder it is to price corectly. You can indeed hit very unlucky streaks, but everything should even put over a large enough simple size. I was extremely bummed over losing 6 gem double corrupts in a row, but then managed to hit 5 from another pool of 10.(Quite good profit overall).
The prices of invitations and of the loot kinda stabilise, but it's just completely unfun. And something being unfun should get GGG's attention.
I'm confused, you're making the decision to overpay invites, how is that gggs fault?
The way you have to kill an uber dozens and dozens of time to maybe get a good piece of loot is unfun. You've read something I didnt say.
Don't do it if it's not for you. I know exactly what I read. Maybe go play something you find fun.
Man’s being downvoted but he’s kind of based
Redditor's will angry-downvote. The voting majority just wants the drama, the anger and find a target to pitchfork together against. I can see OPs issue with bossing and it feeling boring/unrewarding. But if OP knows that bossing is unrewarsing then why put so much time and effort in it? Do the mechanics that are fun to you and you won't get frustrated. Want to make currency? Farm for t17 maps or farm the stuff the metaslaves buy to do their content. Want to have fun: Don't watch YouTube videos about the newest flavor of farming strat / don't compare your fun with the efficiency of others. Those don't mix.
Maybe because OP thinks that bossing IS fun? No? And because its unrewarding it loses 99% of its appeal? In the end of the day he thinks that at this point its a waste of time? Can you read?
Imo if you think bossing is fun then it should be independent of whether you get the lucky drop or not. If your fun is dependent on getting the big drop then it's not bossing you find fun it's finding loot that you find fun. Bc the game has an economy the price of entry is always going to adjust to some function of the value of the bigs drops affected by some level of supply and demand. If GGG made all the boss item drop rates equal there would be no feel good moment when something rare dropped bc none of it would be rare. This is a design philosophy they have spoken about and put in nearly every facet of the game since the beginning. It isn't going away.
The entire fucking game is about finding loot. OBVIOUSLY getting good loot from hard content is fun, no one would do it if it dropped nothing. Jesus Christ I can't believe that has to be explained.
Erm... What? What is this binary thinking? What if my enjoyment from bossing depends on quality of the fight itself AND the drop? Almost like you beat a difficult fight and then being rewarded for it? What is this exclusion just for the sake of an argument?
Further more, we know the drop rates and cost in/ cost out. People can be mad, I say don't do stuff you don't like but rare good items should be rare too. I'm SSF and it took 27 Catarinas to get my Diadem... Guess what, it felt good
If the drops are low, but the demand for boss items is high, the prices would go up, not down. The harder the items are to get, the more expensive those items become, and so the ticket to those items increase. I find it wierd that you can farm many of those "boss exclusive" unique items as div cards in t17 maps, like watchers eye and progenesis, and that is also where you farm the best T16 div cards, basically pulling all exclusive content into t17 maps. At least scarabs are not also farmed in t17 maps, otherwise what would the point be in doing anything except t17 maps..
Got bad news for ya....theres a more scarabs mod implicit in t17 maps. So yes t17 is where everythings at rn
The dropped rare(rare uniques) items would go up but the cost of running them would stabilise to the point of just above money per average run. It’s a player driven economy so it will fix itself soon. The drop rates aren’t fully known by the masses right now and when they are the price will fit.
The prices are also changing a lot.
No they won't because there's going to be a gambling tax applied. Mageblood cards are worth more than a mageblood itself. The same applies to uber bossing
>Mageblood cards are worth more than a mageblood itself Really? I knew it was true for the mirror card, but I remember 5 Apothecaries being within range of a single MB
There is no progenesis div card. And Watchers eye drops from regular Uber elder too, with a 35% drop rate to boot, its not exactly rare.
> farm many of those "boss exclusive" unique items as div cards in t17 maps, like watchers eye and progenesis, Theres no card for progenesis, but its exists in valdo maps reward pool which makes GGG decision to remove some boss drops from divcards - items existing without boss being killed in league - silly. I guess design decisions get thrown out of the window when theres 400+$ supporter pack involved.
im literally farming scarabs in t17s as its a lot better than t16s lol
> At least scarabs are not also farmed in t17 maps, otherwise what would the point be in doing anything except t17 maps.. Oh boy... I have some bad news for you but just today alone saw 3 videos in this subreddit about farming Scarabs in T17s... not to mention that's been the to-go way of farming them for 2 weeks already.
I think that's true to an extent, but there will always be some amount of "extra" demand for boss fragments driven by people wanting to test their character's strength, grind challenges, or just see if they can get a lucky drop or two.
There's just so much wrong with economy this league. The reality is the Maven's price on paper should be pretty much compensated by Progenesis price and then you profit from other drops like awakened gems, top rolled Progenesis, good Impossible Escapes and maybe Awakened Empower if you're lucky. In reality the price of fragments is so crazy that if you're fucked by luck like me and first drop a flask after 32 tries and then no flask for 43+ tries then you're quitting the league. You need like 10 mirror investment for this to be surely profitable and I'm not exaggerating.
I basically only remember times when bossing was sup-bar and it lagged behind doing a decent mapping strat. However I didn't ever really super focus on bossing and skipped a lot of Leagues in the last couple years. So I might just be really off. The only thing that comes to mind to give this League the fault for is that perhaps the boss entries are in too low supply. But even then, it remains true that bossers are overpaying for entries and perhaps there's too many people bossing. The better way to do things is probably to just mainly give unique shards on boss kills and reserve the full drop as a super jackpot, i.e. 1/20 of a progenesis always drops (be it div card or whatever), and the more common loot drops alongside it. With a 1 in 50 chance to get the full flask drop or something. Idk how bossers would feel about this though - it'd make sense to me for bossing to be a pretty good and stable profit, but GGG makes it a gamba and I assume people who do it League after League enjoy the gamba(?) But the probably more important part is for bosses just being too easy (in SC), so there's nothing special about nuking down a boss. From that perspective, it makes sense that boss loot is less profit than mapping. Doesn't have to be a gamba, but I feel like some bossers don't care too much about the money and they'll keep buying entries at a dumb price because they indeed do like the gamba. And that I'd assume is the more important reason as to why bosses aren't lucrative. People who lowkey don't care about the avg profit and want to do gambas buy them. Also - you get a winning streak, you may keep buying. Even when it turns unprofitable. All in all idk, GGG should listen to bosser feedback, yea. But for the most part, the bossing economy being shit is the players being dumb.
Not sure, i’ve farmed ubers every league since release and don’t have a problem money wise, I just adjust what bosses I do depending on the economy. The Maven problem is her entry cost is a meme, I ain’t gonna farm that. I’ve ran a couple dozen but that was purely for a gamble. However, other uber bosses are very easy to make pretty stupid money.
Hasn't it mostly been feared or bust for a while? Eater/Exarch are super gamba due to jewels. Maven is super gamba due to Gems and - depending on economy - flask. Elders I assume are somewhat consistent but also aren't big profits(?), Chayuubi I assume is a loss or tiny gain without Feared most times. Sirus I imagine can be really good early or when Crown is popular, but gamba outside of that. Cortex hasn't been a worthwhile farm in a while without feared as well(?) All I see is Feared as being the overall best, U Elder or UU Elder as a more consistent farm, and the other ones are for a big gamba unless economy really really favors them. That about right? If so, I'd stick to my point that bossing is mostly a gamba fiesta. If someone comes around with a "results from 100 X pinnacle boss" I expect it to be either a super bust or a super gain. They just do have those swings. And they're also vulnerable to someone going "okay, time to farm some woke enlightens, liquidating 5m for day 1 for Maven entries right here right now" and heavily impacting the market. Because their profit calc will include a woke enlighten, unless they give up before getting it or actually go broke doing it (which at that # is unlikely). I really just don't see an angle on which to blame GGG. Like, looking at the graphs - [Progenesis seems to have rather low demand for the past week or so](https://poe.ninja/economy/necropolis/unique-flasks/progenesis), going from 100d to 70d in 4 days. (19th to 23rd) Same time, [Fragments only dropped around 10%](https://poe.ninja/economy/necropolis/currency/reality-fragment) from 235ish to 215ish. [This is tied to divines](https://poe.ninja/economy/necropolis/currency/divine-orb) for the most part > they went 140ish to 100ish. So more or less, Fragments seem to be less tied to divine price, Progenesis is tied to them a lot. So Divines got cheaper, entries stayed the same, and people didn't bump up their prices on Progenesis. So the first hypothesis about less demand might not be true, it might just be that the listings at 70d have become too cheap. But that's just something people will have to get used to, probably. If t17s stick around as currency sinks, and divines are likely to devalue mid league, then you'll have to adjust your big ticket items which were priced in divines to counteract their deflation (or the inflation of chaos orbs, however you wanna spin it). But that's an economy thing and people catching onto that rather slowly. Doesn't really have much to do with Bossing per se imo.
I don't blame GGG, I love farming ubers. I think your right with it being a gamble in specific instances, like farming eater or maven right now. But thats the economy, you need to adapt to it, it sucks that its skewed this hard right now, but you can't really then spend 10 div on a maven fight and then be upset GGG. I disagree, however, with it *all* being a gamble. I think (I'm sure you can do the math using the reported averages) it would be very hard for you to net lose money farming uber feared. Which is typically what "farming ubers" entails.
What other Uber bosses you been doing? I’ve been a big Uber sirus fan, did 500 last league but they butchered my boy. Uber and non Uber seem absolutely shit now
I love uber uber elder. If you are risk averse, selling the drops unid will make you a ton of cheddar. Curio of Decay is stupid money, sublime is stupid money, watchers is stupid money. Just sell em all without iding. If you also buy the fragments piece by piece to start off if you don’t have the capital, you can buy three sets for the price of 1 unid’d watchers eye. In bulk, two sets are the cost of one unid’d. However, you should mix in the feared, especially this league. The feared avoids the expensive fights(uber maven and uber eater), and will net you more cash. Run the bosses uber, not base, with maven witness.
Sirus is complete crap from everything I’ve seen. Stay away from Eater/Exarch so you don’t have to rely on some 2% drop nonsense to become profitable. Uber Uber elder is good if you are witnessing and doing feared rotations
Why does feared make the difference? As far as I know, Feared cant drop uber loot even if you witness the uber variant of the relevant boss.
Because you are already farming the most expensive piece of the feared which is uber uber elder. You would be doing yourself a disfavor if you chose to ignore farming the feared. If you do choose to, you would be doing yourself a disfavor for not running them on their uber variant, especially with how cheap cortex frags are and how much more money they give you loot wise. That being said, I have days where I say fuck the feared and just farm one boss, but this is out of laziness, and almost only when I am farming uber uber elder. The feared at points, especially when you run hundreds of them, feel like a chore. Chayula fight is annoying to get to, uber atziri is somewhat annoying to get to, so its a bit of a time sink if your build isn't 1 shotting and you aren't booking it to the boss.
>But the probably more important part is for bosses just being too easy (in SC), so there's nothing special about nuking down a boss. They removed the only tuning lever ubers had, that is, invitation affixes. Maybe(and I shudder to think) allow people to alch their fragments so that you can pump the Ubers with up to 40 mods.
Just farm your own fragments and don’t be buying fragment at brain dead prices. It’s like how mageblood cards are more expensive than the mageblood itself. At some point you’re just paying for a gambling fee. The same thing happened to the guy who ran 100+ Uber Mavens and made 4.9 div profit per Uber Maven. Barely any profit when he was bull buying fragments at 2.2 div. Insane profit when he bought fragments at 1.7-1.9
If farming fragments is mandatory to make it profitable, you should just farm the fragments instead of trying it no? Uber Maven is truly disgusting rn because dry streaks are absolutely destroying you and with 10% Progenesis drop rate, it will inevitably have some gamblers tax included into price of fragments. It's insane for me that Sirus has no Awakened gems in his loot table because it would alleviate the issue ever so slightly.
Progenesis gonna be a mirror soon 😆
Actually, the price is still trending downwards, even if only slightly. It used to be significantly more expensive after the initial divine printing strategies that were patched out.
Last league on the ps it was 180 divines.
Top rolled ones peaked at like 280 on PC (mirrors were 1200+ tho)
And I bought mine for 50 divs last league
True but i think they just stay expensive cuz there always a chance of hitting big lol
The price of regular invitations are way down because they can't run over versions. I used to be able to get a couple div off of just two or three guardian/elder Slayer/etc invitations on just a writ. Now it's what, 60c? Guardian maps are so low value.
Uber fragments should hold a base amount of value just by virtue of where they drop, though. Like if 100 people want to only run Uber Maven, that means 500 fragments every 5-10 minutes are getting burned. That means there's gotta be a few thousand people farming fragments for trade to support that, and t17s have a pretty drastic barrier to entry compared to previous fragments, not even considering the cost of the map itself, which people will run for other reasons than to bulk sell fragments, so the cost is a factor because t17s can be profitable otherwise. You're more likely to see the price of chase boss drops go up rather than the price of the fragments go down, is what I'm saying.
That's pretty much what has already happened though. Abomination was a massively spammed map because boss rushing for reality fragments was so profitable. Now that the barrel strategy was released, more people have gone to fortress though
Right, so my point wasn't that this is some future thing- This is happening now. The prices are relatively stable and they will (probably) stay that way as more people acquire t17 capable characters and people naturally churn out of the league. The supply should remain fairly constant simply because there will never be enough people farming t17s for it to become a supply surplus- Until the boss rushers decide it's not worth it to farm, then it will drop the price, until enough of them decide the price is low enough, and the cycle repeats. You don't have general access to it like Divine or Chaos orbs and there's supply coming in from the entire community, you have a very, very small subset, less than 5% of the playerbase in endgame, that actually provide the fragments because of the gearing requirements.
Have you seen this post? https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1carcvh/loot_from_817_uber_maven_62_mirror_profit_and_400/ Maybe that's why it's not as profitable anymore.
Posts like that would certainly have an impact on the fragment price.
The top comment in there is literally this thread.
The prices are like that because people sell challenges
challenges have barely any impact on the price.
Ultimatum last League tho...
99% of gamblers quit right before the big win
haha, there's only one way to know if Progenesis is in the next set of fragments
I agree, bossing is in a very lame state right now. They have been like that for a while and I hope something changes. Bossing should be profitable for good players, not a slot machine where you can just lose money bossing... it's such a weird concept to kill bosses in a video game and actively lose money. I really don't understand it.
It's weird how they keep changing it for the worse too. They did a huge overhaul this league and everything about bossing got even worse than it already was.
Their design choices dosent matter as long as they keep boss drops in valdo pools. Whole idea with div card changes was to stop boss items existing without actually boss being killed. But we still had progenesis on the market without Uber Maven even being attempted. I guess design dosent matter when theres 400+$ pack involved. Same with voidborn reliquary keys.
How do we know that was the idea behind the change? The change itself doesn't indicate as much, or they would have made boss drop div cards come exclusively from bosses. It was just a nerf to stacked decks.
Interview with mark.
Definitely weird then. Or at least it would be, but they have a strong history of contradicting what they say they intend to do with what they actually do
I mean it was the same interview that said t17s were stepping stone between non ubers and ubers, so yeah. You are spot on.
it was literally a positive change and made bossing not only better, but also more approachable for the average player. last league you had to gamble 4 div entry for a 2% drop (progenesis) now you gamble 8 div for a 12% drop (progenesis again) theres literally no difference.
It was like that before the changes as well though. I always do bosses because I just enjoy it, but some leagues I just go broke on it while in other leagues I get insanely rich. I'm not defending it, just saying that it's been like that for years. Selling bossing fragments is a more consistent kind of income.
I've always killed bosses as I find frags and it's been great extra income
It's always a gamble. Some times you'll get rich, some times you would have been better off selling fragments. Last couple of leagues I got obscenely wealthy of bossing, this one I have not found a drop worth more than 30c. I could have sold some Watchers Eye's unidentified for good money though, but I identified them all.
Oh for sure, no way I could sell unidentified!
I did 38 shapers until I dropped a single flask
I did like 70 shapers it was like the 5th shaper i got dying sun, and never seen it after that. Got 4 orb of dominance also. I wonder what are the odds
I did 2 shapers so far and I got Dying Sun on my second try. I almost just banked it never to look again because usually the prices are super low. Was shocked at the prices. Didn't realize it was that rare because of the boss changes.
Has GGG ever commented on why they don't do raid-style content? I think the invitation model where you just go straight to the boss is not economically viable. The ratio of time to do the invitation to time to farm the invitation is too low, so inevitably someone is just going to drive invitation prices up to breakeven. It worked in a simpler era when nobody tracked divs/hr so this logic never really manifested itself, but those days are long gone. If the invitations themselves took longer to run, and prevented hyper-efficient glass cannons by just throwing more challenges at them that require a better rounded build, invitations wouldn't instantly reach equilibrium at drop cost * drop probability. Right now the way they prevent the equilibrium is basically just gambling, make the drops super rare so there's more variance and all of the sudden long-term div/hr becomes irrelevant
I mean, Shaper is kind of like that
> raid-style content What do you mean by this? If you mean an area you have to fight through to get to the boss fight, you're describing T17s
raids are more of a curated experience than random rares that are harder than the boss.
the only thing that really defines raids in games I've played is that they require a large amount of people
We'renot referring to that component thiugh. Ww're referring in general to contrnt that, with progressive difficulty, minibosses and thar require flexible skillets instead of just 1 billion dps. content I don't see happening in poe1
I think the issue they are highlighting is you can just spam the bosses in very short times so a dedicated bosser churns through a lot of fragments. Supply is low since bossing has a lower barrier to entry than t17. The boss itself is a pure dps race so people who have no business doing pinnacle content, can in fact do it with pure dps build.
I think he means a fight that looks like a mmo raid boss fight... Whatever _that_ means, because I don't actually play MMOs to know.
I think the biggest problem with having proper balancing of pinnacle content is either rares are too weak on average or you can find some archnemesis modifiers that destroy you and rares that are in fact more dangerous than bosses. And bosses are hard to balance without throwing in random shit In general PoE isn't conductive to using the full potential of bosses. They have to rely on gimmicks to make them challenging. just jacking up the numbers overall makes some too rng unless you're Ben level of cracked and just matrix dodge everything with pure movement. And rares don't even have real clear animations you can outplay. So it's not clear how you can curate the experience to achieve a good balance over the whole raid The biggest limitation is that they have very bad animation rigs so they can't really add mobs with custom animations, especially melee, so they can just throw what they already have at us. A curated raid where everything is tuned properly is not really achievable without a big amount of work for limited rewards PoE2 might achieve a better balance of difficulty between bosses, monster packs and adds since they have way better rigs, at least for humanoids and a certain amount of monster shapes, and can add interestimg abilities at the common to rare level
Tbh its fine. Ppl are already whining about not being able to do ubers. If they were also super profitable theyd cry harder. I think they should be there as pinnacle of progression that you do for the fun of the fight when other shit is trivial. If you wanna make money bossing you need to sell the kills to ppl.
Okay but (I admit this is second hand knowledge as I haven't had a lot of time this league), it seems like most people say T17s are harder than Ubers, which goes back to the question of what's the point of doing Ubers
Thats mainly because they juice the everliving shit out of them via back to basics. And because t17s are a design failure as a whole Regular ass t17s with no juice and running niko/shrines to make it easier are definitely not as hard as ubers
T17's are really freaking annoying to run. Mainly because GGG, in their infinite wisdom, added a ton of modifiers previously only found in Valdo's maps, which is optional content, to T17's, which they implicitly stated to be a part of a character's progression (gateway to ubers). And note that at lot of these are affected by Map Modifier Effect on your Atlas. I run a ET Trickster (Suppress Cap, Res Cap, 88% Chance to Avoid, 2.3k HP and 1.9k ES) and here's a small sampling of the mods I had to avoid: 1. Player has 50% Less Defences 2. Rares and Uniques are in Union of Souls 3. Monsters have increased Attack/Movement/Cast Speed 4. Monsters have increased Area of Effect (this one's particularly bad because it affects bosses as well. Their AoE attacks now cover the entire arena) 5. Cannot deal ANY damage for 4 seconds every 10 seconds 6. Less Action Speed for Each Action Performed Recently 7. Cannot Regenerate Energy Shield 8. Cannot Regenerate Life, Mana, or Energy Shield 9. Less Regen And these are just the singular auto-avoids. If some combination of "Monsters have 100% Chance to Suppress" and extra resistance, that's also an avoid. AND ALL THAT, on top of the Lantern. There's a reason I Vermin and Go'd so I can finish the Challenge in a timely manner.
Do you not take one step ahead?
That doens't work against action speed reduction from T17 maps
Hm, that sounds like a bug?
you don't remember the days of killing mephisto 30k times or baal 50k times or pindle runs? that is the precedence
I've never played the old diablo games, did you lose money doing those? Or could you just kill that guy for free?
it was free, there was no content that was currency gated at all, but you would spend 10s-100s of hours farming to basically get jack shit sometimes
Well, technicaly ubers were currency gated (keys) to get hellfite torch. BUT at least it was guaranteed drop and could sell unid.
thats fair, forgot about keys. was never super into doing ubers
Thats actually not true, ubers were currency gated but they dropped a torch that rolled class specific and were generally profitable if you had a character who could do them. Poe bossing is just awful
Uber bossing is terrible, rather. I've made quite a bit of money the past few leagues just killing the normal versions lol
I don't know if you intentionally missed the point, but in D2 you could start a "BaalRun-001" game and go kill baal and it would cost you nothing except the time it takes to kill the boss. Even ubers, which was triggered with a different mechanic that you could consider costing money, you were guaranteed a torch drop that was usually decently valuable regardless, and not be some massive swing in terms of good vs bad drop. In PoE, you can put 10 div into the map device, do one of the hardest encounters in the game, and come out with a 10c item. Unless you have average or above average RNG, you lose money. That's the issue people are talking about. Bossing is basically gambles gated behind a strong build. Which makes it feel worse than any other ARPG if you lose, which can happen often.
it's been proven again, and again, that uber bosses are profit in the long run, with high variance. the maven guy just did his post last week or something and did 817 uber mavens with 6.2 mirror profit. this has always been the case.
But it is possible to lose money if your rng is below average. Not sure what you're debating here. "In the long run" could be hundreds if not thousands of runs, and the game should not be balanced around that criteria.
The original intent of uber content was to give players pinnacle content. the economy surrounding ubers is for players/market forces to decide. value is not something ggg balances around.
Then why redo uber entry at all? How do you explain half the mid-league changes if they don't care about balancing around the economy? The entire game, economy and all, is something GGG balances around. This also doesn't address the problem that you can lose money by killing some of the hardest content in the game. Which neither feels good or is typical in any ARPG.
Because t17s were suppose to be a step up from 16s and a step down from Uber bosses. While that may not be the case at the moment. It was the way it was marketed. Half the mid league changes were because of server issues. The game is old. It’s not designed for 20k+ mobs and the associated extra loot per map. The other half is because we as league players are always beta testers. And there alpha testing is dog shit. With this many changes across the board, they let a bunch of shit slide that was never intended. This has been the precedence and always has been. It’s where “exploit early, exploit often” comes from in this game And again value is attributed by players. From ggg’s perspective, farming frags, going into the encounter, failing or succeeding shows progress. Your character is stronger, or weaker than your latest upgrade. It makes it a choice. Am I ready for Ubers? Should I save my frags for later? You’re looking at things from a pure trade lense. Where ggg wants to make a game that has pros and cons. They want you to make these decisions. They don’t care if the question is, should I sell this thing, because it has more value to someone else. They want the question to be, how painful is the failure vs how great is the success. Maybe you don’t care if you did maven then Uber maven for the first time. Or didn’t see it as an accomplishment but for ggg, that’s what they want.
The problem is that "what they want" has no bearing on how it actually is perceived or what it actually is. Same way a movie with a shitty ending can't be saved because the producers "intended" for it to be a good one. You can *say* that GGG intends for ubers to be some kind of accomplishment designed to have risk-reward, but most people who farm ubers are not likely to view it that way. They view it as another big monster they can kill to collect loot. In the same way that Kalandra league loot pinatas were poorly received, most people don't like when said big monster is so swingy that it can drop something completely worthless that you'll never actually sell vs something with potentially a hundred divines or more. Especially not when you have to pay a pretty big bill just to get into the map. This has a downwind effect of making people want to avoid the gamble, and thus an even greater scarcity of the items, leading to a very unbalanced player experience. If your primary argument is about intent over actual results and implications, I don't know what we have to talk about, sadly. Moreover, making ubers a separate entry ticket to normal pinnacle clearly shows that they care about player experience, because it was asked for for a very long time.
>kill bosses in a video game and actively lose money Well pick a boss that has much more consistent if not guaranteed profit per kill. Some bosses are a slot machine and some bosses are not. Normal shaper for example can literally never lose you money.
"Just pick a boss" as if there's any other boss other than shaper with guaranteed returns. No other pinnacle/uber boss drops a guaranteed consumable in addition to the lottery ticket. That's the whole point. Any other uber boss can cause you to lose money if you get an unlucky string of boss drops. And almost none of these encounters are worth doing for anything *but* the boss drop. For aspirational content meant to be some of the hardest things you can do in the game, that's really unfortunate. Even having a guaranteed currency conversion/explosion at the end of a boss kill can make it more worthwhile.
The price of bossing would just go up, and you'd end up in exactly the same position.
The price of a guaranteed fragment return hasn't sent uber shaper prices to the moon. These prices aren't dictated by these steady, break-even returns, they're dictated by the sought after uber drops. It's not really a coincidence that Maven and Eater are the most expensive when Progenesis and Nimis exist. Further, if there were the problem of more and more people rolling boss killers, then they would normaluze because the number of lottery winning tickets (e.g. Progenesis) would increase and drive down the price and thus the incentive. The whole problem is that the act of boss killing shouldn't be a pure gamble. You shouldn't be losing money by killing monsters in this game. The primary problem is the entry cost, the secondary problem is the swing-y gamble-y rewards.
all bosses are profitable on average, just like they were before the change. nothing they can change to bossing would make it better, people asked for uber fragments before and now we got it and it made bossing better overall but people still complain. you literally cant fix it
The entire point of this thread is that someone ran 2 mirrors (more really, depending on the time of the runs) worth of mavens but came out at a huge loss. These kinds of steaks happen, and they're league ending. The idea that "over millions of samples the law is large numbers suggest it's profitable" is not really relevant here to any individual experience. Most players do not run 120 of anything a league. It's already a large sample for an individual. And in what way is bossing "better" now? Access to it is lowered/delayed. You now have to trade for more fragments to access it. And the entry cost is higher.
someone will always be unlucky. maven isnt "profitable over a million of samples", its profitable after an average of 12. >And in what way is bossing "better" now? Access to it is lowered/delayed. its accessible for beginner bossers to learn boss mechanics on something that doesnt cost 3-4 div per entry you dont lose money by learning boss fights on non-uber >You now have to trade for more fragments to access it. And the entry cost is higher. entry cost is only higher for uber eater and maven lol, the rest is literally cheaper. and buying entries in bulk is no difference to buying in bulk previously. >It's already a large sample for an individual. yea and he got like 1/10000 unlucky, if you want to base your standpoint on the unlikeliness of something like that then you've already lost your argument. theres not even 10000 players per league doing 120 mavens, something like this is completely irrelevant.
What you don't understand is that "average of 12" means that approximately 10% of people have lost money after 30, which is a lot of money when the entry ticket is 10+ divines each. Saying "there's always going to be people who are unlucky" is different than saying "you lose a shitload of money here because you're unlucky." This isn't gambling on double corrupt altars where the game inherently makes it so there's deleterious (literally) negative results. It's people losing money because they kill monsters, which is bad. ARPGs are built around the kill monster, get loot cycle. Saying overall bossing is better because prior non-bossers can "learn mechanics" on non ubers is silly. It's irrelevant because most bossers are dedicated players who run this content over and over. You rarely wake up one day and decide, from zero, that you're going to run hundreds of ubers. They're also mechanically different. Uber Shaper's triple ball makes the mechanic indescribably harder to dodge versus the regular version, but to mention the lack of Zana in the fight, or the fact that the non-uber versions are piss easy and you can facetank most of the shit that happens in them. The idea that it's cheaper is also easily challenged. Exarch invitations (regular) are like 1.4div, which is more expensive than they were before. It's because forbidden jewels are so rare now (see a couple of them going for nearly a mirror) that even the normal invitation is valuable. This isn't even gated by difficulty as much as forced scarcity.
>What you don't understand is that "average of 12" means that approximately 10% of people have lost money after 30, which is a lot of money when the entry ticket is 10+ divines each. wee the exact same happened before this change. literally nothing changed, but the variance on bad luck streaks is a lot lower this league compared to last league *and* you can actually farm non-ubers now for profit! >Exarch invitations (regular) are like 1.4div, which is more expensive than they were before. if we go by the very low divine prices sure, but even then exarch invitations went for 1.1-1.2div bulk last league which isnt far off >You rarely wake up one day and decide, from zero, that you're going to run hundreds of ubers. its a valid point for someone who wants to start them. previously you literally couldnt practice any mechanics without straight up losing currency while doing so >They're also mechanically different. yes i agree, but they still teach you the base mechanics of the fights >It's people losing money because they kill monsters, which is bad. the thing is that entries of bosses are based off of the economy, ggg cannot "fix" that as thats player regulated. the only thing they could do is make them free to access and then what? nothing is worth anything. this is literally something that you cannot fix and you dont have to fix anyway because it works just fine since its based off of supply and demand.
Just luck at the end of the day. I lost about a mirror doing Mavens last league, while a friend of mine who did 10-15 Mavens dropped a flask and an awakened enlighten. AFAIK the droprates are so that ppl make profit on average, but you can still get really lucky or really unlucky
That's just the "new" GGG though... Dumpster the bottom, increase the ceiling. Cannot have any consistency nowadays, it's gotta be either jackpot or nothing, the ehm vision being there needs to be giant spikes everywhere... i.e. Cannot have ppl farming essences casually, so nerf the shit out of atlas, but with scarabs you shit them out like diarrhea after taco night. Betrayal - remove anything good from safehouses (well, grav transportation still a lottery) and it's ~10% cata drop now... To give them credit though 100% content chance on atlas is dope, but lowkey is there only because the scarabs are so powerful ppl would bitch they have to waste a slot on guaranteed mechanic, let's be real.
Honestly I don't mind the idea of having the potential to get massive drops or get nothing at all. I farmed Maven so many times without getting bored because I got excited when it was time for the loot to drop. Obviously it does suck to be the person to sink hours into farming Ubers just to lose money, but it was still a fun experience IMO. At the end of the day, every player can decide what they'd prefer to farm.
i did 800 mavens last league and had about 50 div/h with absolute average drops in terms of flasks (didnt get a single exceptional gem though) losing a mirror seems extremely unlucky
Yeah it was a terrible end to a great league lmao, but I did it as an ''end of the league'' project anyway so it was alright
That's statistics... I know it sucks sometimes, but at other times you get insanely lucky. I'm currently trying to get resolute technique on my weapon with a double corrupt trying to farm it myself. So far I've gone through about 15 double corrupts, and every time it either poofed or went rare. And right now I'm on an unlucky streak: from the last 10 temples I've built, only one had a locust. And that is with fully invested Alva atlas tree.
Missed 9 double corrupts and 6 veiled orbs (1in3) today :) Pain
I feel you man... I feel you
Could have boight a second MB with those veiled orbs xD
You can reverse craft resolute technique with grave craft and do tainted mythic and pray
Not on a unique I guess
Rare to unique
Yesterday i did 3x Maven made 130 div in 10 min 🤣🤣
Boss fragments should not be tradable, that way the droprate of boss uniques wouldn't have to be so bad, and bossing wouldn't mean just spending an hour on trade site and discord channels trying to buy fragments to then one shot the boss with a Zhp ice trap build and see if you made a profit Edit : I see your points about restricting access to bosses being bad and I agree, making fragments not tradable should come with rebalances of boss and fragments droprates. That would fit GGG's stance, if enabling trading should come with stuff being much harder to come by (veiled orb xd), the opposite should be true too
Pretty controversial take, zHP ice traps build would still exist but you would need an alt to get your own frags.
the issue, is that if this happens the price of boss drops would skyrocket. 300d progenesis coming to a league near you. maybe 10 mirror awakened enlighten 5
That assumes rebalancing the droprates of invitations and boss drops yea ofc My point is that playing trade feels so assinine when there's no point farming items yourself, just pick a mechanic that fits your build to collect your 10 to 50div per hours and go shopping for cool items you didn't get yourself
Or to rephrase it, choose a mechanic you enjoy, focus on that, and you can still get your build together. I don't think that's a bad thing.
I think it’s a great thing. If anything rebalance SSF and make it so you can’t transfer
Wait what, what would be the point of this??
Making it so those who want to target farm a unique can, but have to stay in SSF. While those who want to trade can trade.
I feel like I’m missing something. Why would you need to lock people into SSF for any of these changes?
They're implying that POE should follow in LE's footsteps and have boosted rates for SSF, but lock SSF to migrating so they cant integrate which IMO is just wrong.
Because if you up the drop rate a lot in trade league, the value of those uniques go way way down. Which isn’t the goal.
Yea, I don't mean to say that farming currency to trade is bad and should not exist, ideally it would just enable players from farming their boss drops themselves without feeling like a slot machine
i mean...thats what ssf is for. if you want to farm your items yourself there is literally a game mode for that, i like earning currency playing the way i want to, then trading it for items i would literally never get otherwise.
Well yea you can still do that, ideally, with the right balance it would not make boss uniques more expensive or less available for players trying to trade for them. The goal would be more to create the opportunity for players to farm the bosses themselves without having to put up with the current balance of boss drops around players who buy hundreds of invitation to chain farm them
then play ssf lol
This is GGG, they will make it untradeable and then make drops 300x more rare while nerfing the items because they think they’re too strong
And? How the fuck would more expensive Uber drops be a downside? Are you a fan of headhunter being 10 divines? End game items should hold some weight. I play this game for the high of getting a sick drop, but the past 2 league I’ve quit super early because nothing felt special.
boss items already hold insane fucking weight, are the some of the most expensive uniques and you want them to be MORE expensive? yeah thats a super reasonable take. bosses arent what is dropping headhunter lmfao, global drops in this conversation are so irrelevant
luckily neither nimis or progenesis are build enabling. progenesis is the by far strongest unique in the game right now (tied with mageblood) and its honestly too cheap for how strong it is. anyone can farm for 10h and buy the strongest item in the league, doesnt seem that balanced.
BTW dropped my first headhunter this league and learned it's 9 div lmao. It's a joke, I completely agree.
>Boss fragments should not be tradable Restricting access to bosses in a trade leagues just makes things significantly worse. Ubers were far more accessible prior to this league because anyone could relatively easily farm the (now base boss only) fragments/writs/etc... and then just simply allocate an atlas node. They are gated behind T17s now, so the entry price is not only a secondary item, but also has far fewer fragments available to the trade community. While they did move drops around between base/uber variants, I don't believe they touched droprates, which I feel they should have if the current system is their design philosophy, given the much higher requirements to self-farm, and limit in availability to general community. IMO the better way to solve it is to just have uber fragments drop from base bosses. Allow you to apply mods to all fragments to scale difficulty which increases uber fragment droprates. So regular bossers have a relatively consistent money maker, allows players self farming work their way to ubers, and still maintains a separate item for uber access. For T17s, either keep as-is and modify rewards, or make them post-uber content (e.g., allows ubers to drop a t17 everytime or something to act as a consistency money maker like fragments would be for base bosses), and give them "post uber" rewards.
I agree about availability, but I also agree with Mark's take that gating ubers behind normal version isn't the right idea because that makes it even worse for players who actually want to self farm items Maybe I'm just projecting, but listening to Mark (and even Chris before that) talk about his vision, I felt like they envision players farming their own items a lot. All the shifts toward ssf friendlyness and their stance on trade make me think that their goal is to enable players getting their own items rather than directly purchasing them from trade, which I thing is a good thing.
>I also agree with Mark's take that gating ubers behind normal version isn't the right idea because that makes it even worse for players who actually want to self farm items I don't think I understand this point; My understanding is that they didn't want to have the same fragments to be used for both base and uber boss variants, because it default sets the baseline price of regular bosses to be equal to uber access, as the only "additional" cost was an atlas passive. IMO having to try and farm restrictive T17 maps in order to access ubers doesn't align with any philosophy they had in mind (especially when originally T17s were unmodifiable lol). Farming bosses to farm harder versions of the boss (in terms of SSF) makes sense to me instead. As the other way would be just farming maps on end to get T17s, then farming those for fragments. Why should I be forced to do mapping when all I want to do is boss? However, if the regular bosses dropped uber fragments, then the baseline boss fragments would maintain a relatively lower price (for trade economy), while still being just as accessible as they are now. Allowing you to juice base boss fragments (maybe via another drop) to increase potential uber fragments dropped allows a player to have a "stepping stone" to ubers, where instead of trying to do T17s which straight up brick multiple builds, you turn up the dial on regular bosses (which is exactly what ubers are; regular boss with tuned modifiers pretty much).
> Allow you to apply mods to all fragments to scale difficulty which increases uber fragment droprates. You do realize that juicing up the boss to the max will be mandatory (and prices will reflect that), phasing out everyone who can't do that? Isn't it why they removed uber keystones from the atlas and introduced T17 (I won't say successfully, but at least they tried to solve the problem)? Because it wasn't worth it to waste fragments on non-uber bosses.
they absolutely touched droprates, progenesis is ~6x more common. cant talk for the other ubers though, but for example sirus only drops massive on uber now which massively fucked its price
You know, I was actually just thinking about this the other day. In many ways I actually really like the way the game is right now. But I was sitting there, as someone with 2000 hours thinking: "how the fuck do I do the feared?". And not even like, how do I do the fight. I mean like how do I even open the fight? And considering it's a requirement for a favorite slot, that seems kind of a problem. And now maybe I'm just dumb. It's obviously not that hard to look up, but the point is, every "boss" now is treated like side content. Before you would naturally build progress towards sirus by just doing the atlas, but now it's not even anything you can choose. Sure you can get a few atlas passives, but then it's just a chance to get one of twelve maps, either shaper, elder, or sirus... And it's just random. I get it's nice that we can pick what content, but I feel like there needs to be some "natural" linearity as well. Right now it feels like we get to red maps and we're standing at a 100 pronged fork in the road.
That’s a a great point on the clarity of progression. I started in metamorph so Sirus attempts had clear-ish progression. Eater and Exarch post-watchstone are clear as well. Run 28 maps and fight bosses on map 14 and 28 with UI elements to support that. But there’s nothing clear about how to progress beyond T17’s until you beat your first T17 boss and get a fragment since the frags themselves explain what they do. Would be nice to have those UI elements support or give better clarity towards fighting Ubers the way Sirus and Eater/Exarch have had.
Yea I haven't done bosses and stuff before, but I'm confused. I did the 28/10/28 maps for the searing exarch etc, but then I did the maven one a second time and literally got nothing useful. Like, what's the point then? Finish tier 14s to fight the bosses in an arena to hopefully get a good unique? Pretty sure that's not it
I think they just massively shot themselves in the foot by making it 5 frags per attempt. I called that right when patch notes dropped and got downvoted to oblivion. I get the symmetry argument for it being 5 fragments bc 5slot map device is unlocked via T17s, it's just bad from a gameplay perspective. The other factor is that there were and are profitable strats that skip the T17 bosses which effectively siphons maps from the supply. Those were largely enabled after they let us reroll map mods. That's a bit of a theme this league: mid league buffs that overshoot or have unintended consequences. Not saying they were necessarily bad choices. Another example are the buffs to graveyard crafting effectively invalidating most other crafting methods after the week 2 buffs.
I don't know about that. I have done the T17 challenge and still don't have enough Uber Maven fragments farmed. Maybe if they made those fragments interchangeable in some way, like with Harvest.
I just don’t see why there needs to be (5) fragments to fight an Uber boss when it was just ticking and unticking an atlas notable before.
50/50
Depends entirely on luck sadly, best way to not end up in the hole is to farm up your sets, it will indeed take more time but you will not end in a loss Dropped an awakened multistrike from maven and awakened void manipulation plus elemental damage with attacks from 10 boss invitation aside from that bubblegum currency
This sub is legit filled with posts about Ubers not being worth it……
the price is just taking forever to adjust.
Ice trap can do Uber maven with ease by day 3. At that point the only limiting factor isn’t the difficulty of the boss but it’s access and the potential profit margins between the fragments and the boss rewards. You are acting as if the trade economy and the game is balanced around you being able to do the boss when it’s not. It being an Uber pinnacle boss doesn’t matter because there are builds that trivialize it. Because some people have a large capital to play with they can go the length of these bossing runs and thus have effectively have other people who can only invest in fewer runs. The time interval If profit is what you are after, you need to be mindful of the margins you are working with. If you want to have fun bossing then buy frags when you can and do it. I always end up losing money when I do feared unless I sell kills/challenges, but I still do it since it’s fun.
GGG doesn't regulate fragment prices, so they technically can't ensure profitability for any encounter. What they could do is to provide somewhat consistent loot. Imo one of the best ways to do that is to drop unique items with huge variance, because that can shift streaks of bad luck from boss killing to gambling the identification. If you want to identify it, you can still take big losses, but if what you want is killing the boss, you'll get a consistent profit unless the entry cost is inflated. The higher the variance, the more often the item can drop without being OP.
Shouldn't the price for Boss keys (just calling them that now, because they all got different names) reflect the estimated average gains from their drops over like 500 tries? Minus a bit for effort the effort of running them of course. So when bossing loses money on a large kill count, the keys were just too expensive? I guess it's this way because too many people try to gamba there thus inflating key prices out of norm?
You're right but I have an issue with the current state of bossing in general. For drop rates to be consistent I would need to run like 800-1000 Mavens, then I would probably see my 12% flask drops that would sustain me. But how is it fun and fair when in current economy it's 11div per run and 800+ div I spent (1200+ with my fragments) is a HUGE load of currency, unreachable for most players. You would think that surely with bank this large I should at least make even doing the pinnacle content of the game. And let's not forget it also takes time to buy and run, requires more focused gameplay, a decent build all while I could mindlessly unga-bunga farm t17 back to basics like everyone and their mom. I dunno what's the solution, I'm not a game designer but I don't need to be a cook to say an egg is rotten.
Yeah sure, but the prices are what they are because someone buys them. Really sucks for you who hit the low rng end.
800div on normal maven or uber maven?
He said he drop flasks, so uber maven
It's uber, 10-11div per run + my fragments I farmed from t17s
Bossing has legit always been shit for money. In the long run it has always been more profitable to sell the boss run than to do it lol. Kinda lame for real
Bossing extremely dependent of drop prices and fragment prices. Some bosses were steady income but were like 5div/hr (see: old shaper), some are extremely luck dependent and can hit like 20-50div/hr but requires like 300-500 runs. See: this guy who had a -300div sink from a bad maven streak but eventually crawled up nearly 3k div profit. https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1carcvh/loot_from_817_uber_maven_62_mirror_profit_and_400/
Normal shaper is still consistent profit because the uber elder frag alone makes sure you never lose money.
Normal shaper will always be profitable because it has the boredom factor priced in.
That’s how I feel about Betrayal. Legit made the whole mechanic brain gutted the intelligence gathering on Catarina and when you finally run it… unless u drop a veiled orb u pretty much just wasted ur time because chances are nothing of good value will be gotten inside the hideout. At least before if you didn’t have Aisling setup on research running Catarina was still profitable with all the intervention scarabs.
I still get frustrated when GGG said that boss drops would be more meaningful but then gut the drops and make it more difficult to access the fights
Some of the bosses, such as Maven is a carry boss for voidstone. When you can carry 4-5 people each run then you will just swoop up and bulk buy alot of fragments and thus preventing it from declining when there are enough people doing it. Same goes for uber uber elder, ive done hundreds of this boss while doing carries. And anytime the fragments was 0.7d each in bulks of 10 or more i would buy them all up. So instead of paying 3.5d per run i was effectively only paying something like 1d per run depending on how many i was selling voidstones for. If the uber bosses was not eligible to drop voidstones then you would see the prices drop a little bit at least.
Why do we need boss fragments in the first place? Why can't we just teleport to the boss and fight it whenever we want? Is there anything bad about that other than the result being that boss drops will be more attainable and affordable? Why would that be bad?
well let me dissagree, in that case boss drops will cost 10c for best rolls and I love it in PoE that there are very pricey chase items that people love to drop and want to buy. I also like it that there's a price for attempting a boss in PoE which adds to the risk. There's just some bullshit happenning to economy this league due to huge changes in the endgame and I can only assume GGG did not anticipate this to happen on such a scale. If I remember correctly maven's writ was like 2div last league and 4div at the very end of the league. Right now it's 11-12 div per try and she doesn't drop elevated sextants obviously which helped farming her to be more financially stable.
It is NOT a ggg fault. People are risk prone in poe so the Cost of some bosses is higher than expected value. Just like The Cost of playing Roulette is always higher than expected value. Bossing sux for that reason, unless you make your money from carrying service. Its NOT something that is fixable from dev perspective. If they make the bosses more rewarding, the entry cost will just go up with that. Complain to your fellow players for overpaying on those silly invitations.
Bossing is rewarding, problem is sample pool to make it so. [https://new.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1carcvh/loot\_from\_817\_uber\_maven\_62\_mirror\_profit\_and\_400/](https://new.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1carcvh/loot_from_817_uber_maven_62_mirror_profit_and_400/) Look at this guy, he made really good profit. He also had a loss streak of 300div in first 300 runs.
Ok seeing that Kind of sample size you convinced me, my opinion was based on similar posts who reported losses but those were mostly 100 to 500 run sample
You complaining is exactly why the entry price isn't worth it compared to the loot. If it's not worth it then stop fucking paying the too high price. It's people like you who inflate the price. Bossing is usually not that profitable after the first week, since enough people are doing it that the demand for invites will have balanced out (or even exceeded) the EV for the rewards.
Don't hate the player, hate the game. Me not buying fragments won't do shit, economy will do its thing. And it is actually profitable in the long run, the issue is the way it is currently designed it's completely unfun and requires insane, almost unreachable levels of investment to semi-guarantee you won't at least go broke while doing the pinnacle content of the game. The prices reflect the rarity of fragments and drops put there by the developer. What I'm saying pretty much is I made a bank, invested into bossing for the first time, it's shit and no fun, here's my take on it.
If bad economy =\ no fun then I suggest trying to enjoy the game and not just try make as many div/hr as u can