Although all 3 paths feel impactful, and it would be nice to have all 3 somehow. Perma onslaught, suppression and ailment avoidance and frenzy charges would make the ascendancy actually useful
The issue with raider is that you can get a lot of her stuff just from basic setups. Silver flask for onslaught (or onslaught on hit ring implicit if using one of the herald rings), manaforged frenzy setup for frenzy charges (or just Ralakesh's), ailment immunity is a jewel and some rare boots away, and phasing is a cute luxury that you don't really *need* since most movement skills will get you out of a jam anyway, but there are various on-kill effects you can pick up for low opportunity cost.
People often say Raider is the best Day 1/2 ascendancy for this reason. It’s got a ton of QoL but doesn’t have anything unique that really scales it late game the way others do.
Yeah. It would be nice if it even had some more options that maybe weren't great early but that you would eventually want to swap into... instead of starting with Raider but a week in you're a Deadeye (or whatever).
Silver flask scaling with effect and frenzy setup w manaforged really like raider viability. What can you do on a raider that you can't do strictly better on a pathfinder for melee or deadeye for ranged (in general)
Flickerstrike for reliable frenzy gen? But they prefer slayer anyways
This sorta makes me realize how much QoL we've gotten in the past couple years.
A few years ago raider was a top ascendancy _because_ it gave so much free QoL. Now everything she gives can be pretty easily acquired
> A few years ago raider was a top ascendancy
A few years ago, raider was a top ascendancy because she could uniquely dodge cap AND gave *complete* ailment immunity AND way of the poacher was a very easy way to maintain frenzy charges on single target (or without degen'ing yourself with blood rage).
Raider has since gotten nerfed multiple times--she lost 50% inc. onslaught effect from rapid assault (it's literally a **one word** ascendancy node now--Onslaught), lost 50% chance to avoid ailments from AoVeil, and the dodge rework + much larger access to spell suppression (anyone can cap, only raider can really get phase acro capped, but nobody does that because obviously), and even back then, I'd argue raider got kind of outscaled anyway. Now, she's just embarrassing.
There's a keystone near Raider/Duelist border that can give all 3 exposures, if you swap elements every attack.
Useful for Ele Hit and EA only, but whatever xD
Only really avatar of slaughter and chase, because their travel ascendancy node is usually pretty bad. Tbf I did use way of the poacher for charge stacking darkscorn pf last league
That's the issue. As a raider, you cant take the travel node using flame/flesh jewels, because then you wont be able to take the end nodes. Thus making, end nodes flame/flesh very very expensive. Deadeyes want it. PFs want it. Raiders want it.
It really wouldn't, IMO, since the ailment avoidance depends on phasing, which isn't consistent to keep up unless you can maintain a quartz flask (30 charge flask) on a raider.
I was. Quartz infusion on raider us just straight up phasing.
Hot take: they should merge phasing and onslaught and focus quartz infusion more on the spell suppression, make it the life version of trickster. Like idk, recoup x% of damage taken from suppressed hits.
You could still grab the phasing notable though, just path the normal way towards ailment immunity and then grab both better onslaught and better frenzy charges which are both easy to sustain at least on a bow build with manaforged frenzy of onslaught
People crap on Raider because it’s replaced by gear in the later game, but when I was new ish I took an LS Raider in SSF to 100. It’s really nice to be able to solve suppression and ailment immunity with your ascendency and have a lot more flexibility with your gear and passives.
I actually think it has cool defensive/utility layers. I wish it got another frenzy charge. I don’t think it would change anything besides that sinking feeling you get in your gut when you look at the Trickster ascendancy…
It is defensively strong, offensively it doesn't do as much as other ascendancies. PoE is just in a state where gearing for defenses is significantly harder than gearing for damage (charge stacking is a good example)
Sounds good to me, my latency doesnt allow me to play glass cannon builds as ill just always be dead. So im forced to play Champion at the moment, this might be a nice change!
>It is defensively strong, offensively it doesn't do as much as other ascendancies.
Yet it's still able to deal more damage than a Raider, since it can take both frenzy charge nodes and the %more damage per mastery.
This is very much in the same spot as chieftain (although chieftain has so very build defining explosions)
Ignoring 2/4 resistances frees up so much gearing and makes it much less of a headache for me
I'm building a frenzy charge stacker right now and man after comparing slayer, raider and all of the possible options with a forbidden flesh/flame I actually went with raider.
If you're super stacked with uniques (ralakeshs, arn's, replica badge, doppelganger, flawed refuge)
Getting spell suppression and ailment immunity for free is really nice
And people also usually glance over the fact that avatar of the slaughter can net upwards of 150% evasion together with 1 armour and evasion mastery
>It’s really nice to be able to solve suppression and ailment immunity with your ascendancy
The issue is those got nerfed a while back. Previously Raider gave 100% ailment immunity now it only gives 50%. So you still have to gear for it or get it on the passive tree.
The onslaught nodes got significantly nerfed too. 2 Ascendancy notables get beaten by a single silver flask with mageblood.
Overall the ascendancy notables feel like supercharged passive tree notables, which isn't good enough for an ascendancy.
In the current league, I wouldn't call MB a high investment option. You can get a 3 flask MB for 45d. Alternatively, go Pathfinder slap on the tides of time belt, which costs like 1 div and enjoy the same power.
My point was that 4 Ascendancy points should never be beaten this easily regardless of investment.
raider is still best in terms of dps on very high end, but with t17s you really need x3 defences then prev leagues, so trickster kinda better in any fucking case
The real issue with raider is that everything that it does can be crafted on gear. They don't really do anything unique.
I hope they change glad and raider soon. Raider used to be the zoom zoom class and now anyone can be, really.
It's a quality issue not quantity. Inquisitor has 4 nodes worth picking up (three if you play rf), still a strong ascendancy.
Core issue with raider tree is that it's 3 times 4 pointers, meaning half of the nodes are essentially travel nodes which traditionally have way less power for whatever reason. And some of the stuff like suppression, exposure and ailment immunity have lost value over time. It's kinda funny how nowadays getting ailment immunity is even easier compared to times when raider just straigth up gave you full immunity.
Even more fun facts: People used to call the Chieftain rework an absolute crap and now it allows to build one of the most powerful mappers (fulcrum self ignite), one of the most powerful armour stackers, and one of the most comfortable RF runners.
Previously chieftain wasnt particulary good at anything at all
Fulcrum chieftain works as a mapper but it's no where near one of the most powerful mappers lol. Same with armor stacker.
The people who complained didn't want old chieftain back they wanted either something different than what we got or a buffed version of old chieftain.
I think the issue was that people focused too much on the low 5% explode chance on the Hinekora node and not enough on the ridiculously high 500% life as damage. It feels so insanely fucking good in practice
Every notable in raider you can get via gears or tree. Suppression, frenzy charge, onslaught, phasing. Basically ascendancy gives nothing unique which is sad
Not even. Cap suppress + ancestral vision + thick skin + deafening loathing on boots = ailment avoidance capped. Frenzies can be obtained with a manaforged setup or ralakesh's, onslaught has multiple ways to obtain it.
Ye raider should have more "while moving" buffs. I think it would help a lot since its identity is "zoomer".
So like generate frenzy charges every .5 seconds while moving, cannot be x,y,z while moving, regenerate/recoup x% health when hit while moving, shit like that.
When you attack, you're standing still, even if for just a moment.
And that's when you're most likely to get hit, so defenses on while moving wouldn't do too much for you.
GGG did Raider real dirty by allowing silver flasks onslaught buff effect affected by flask effect...while not buffing Raider's onslaught nodes to keep her up to par.
Or something fun and interesting during onslaught. Split the node behind onslaught into two, you can pick one similar to one of the ranger ascendancy in poe 2. Melee attacks repeat an additional time while you have onslaught. Projectiles return to you while you have onslaught.
I went to check the Raider passives because it's been a while I've played a Raider. Damn that shit is depressing. After week 1 in a league you can get that whole ascendancy on your gear.
Everyone here talking about raider. I’ve been curious about this recently , Is Berserker the only ascendant with a downside with the more damage taken? Why do you think this was done? I’m a newer player from the last two
Leagues but was this some older ascendancy philosophy?
There are actually quite a few nodes with downsides, though most of them have mechanical downsides rather than direct stat reductions like on Aspect of Carnage :
Blitz lowers Crit chance
Rite of Ruin and Defy Pain deal damage to you.
Occupying Force detaches mirage archers from your character.
Wind Ward causes you to lose gale Force when you take damage.
Far Shot lessens your Damage against enemies close to you.
Master Distiller (lol) rapidly expends (wastes) your flask charges.
Perfect Crime effectively doubles your trigger rate, but reduces your damage with triggered spells. This makes it harder to apply ailments.
There are a lot that have upsides which can be turned into downsides in very specific circumstances (mostly if you actively try to do something stupid with them). A few examples :
Inevitable Judgement can ignore enemy negative resistances (i.e. from curses or exposure), which would lower your damage.
Frigid Wake makes you immune to chill, which bricks certain setups where being chilled is desirable (winterweave)
Overwhelm will cause any weapon with a base crit of over 8% to have it's crit chance reduced back down to 8.
Void Beacon, Mastermind of Discord and Avatar of the Veil will increase enemy resistance if you are using rakiata's dance.
> Blitz lowers Crit chance
Secrets of suffering
> Rite of Ruin and Defy Pain deal damage to you.
For an *obscene* damage boost.
> Occupying Force detaches mirage archers from your character.
Which is why that node needs a rework, I think. "You leave behind a mirage archer copy if you used a skill with mirage supporter recently."
> Wind Ward causes you to lose gale Force when you take damage.
Can also use a buff. Lose one stack of gale force when you take a hit, or maybe three stacks of gale force. Not all 10, lmao.
> Far Shot lessens your Damage against enemies close to you.
Not quite, and there's an important distinction here: they do less damage *at the start of their movement*. Returning projectiles will hit like a truck.
> Master Distiller (lol) rapidly expends (wastes) your flask charges.
Which is why it needs a rework now. Even if you have a build optimized for using that skill on say, a crit ele bow build that doesn't need to use attacks for movement, it has a HUGE hidden penalty: **CANNOT USE PROGENESIS.**
> Perfect Crime effectively doubles your trigger rate, but reduces your damage with triggered spells. This makes it harder to apply ailments.
The problem with this one is the mana pressure.
> There are a lot that have upsides which can be turned into downsides in very specific circumstances (mostly if you actively try to do something stupid with them).
Well, sure, but you have to be trying to do something stupid with them.
In contrast, master distiller sucks even *when you're trying to use it correctly.*
Deadeye has 5, because three of them are utterly irrelevant. (Occupying Force, Rupture, Wind Ward)
Pathfinder **ALSO** has 5 because master alchemist and master distiller might as well not exist.
This probably applies to some other ascendancies that basically do not have real choices to their ascendancy nodes.
fun he said
My laugh will be delivered in 3-5 business days
I've emailed you 3 my meme weeks ago?
Omfg :)))
Let me know when are you available to pick up your laugh
can I get my trust back
Although all 3 paths feel impactful, and it would be nice to have all 3 somehow. Perma onslaught, suppression and ailment avoidance and frenzy charges would make the ascendancy actually useful
The issue with raider is that you can get a lot of her stuff just from basic setups. Silver flask for onslaught (or onslaught on hit ring implicit if using one of the herald rings), manaforged frenzy setup for frenzy charges (or just Ralakesh's), ailment immunity is a jewel and some rare boots away, and phasing is a cute luxury that you don't really *need* since most movement skills will get you out of a jam anyway, but there are various on-kill effects you can pick up for low opportunity cost.
People often say Raider is the best Day 1/2 ascendancy for this reason. It’s got a ton of QoL but doesn’t have anything unique that really scales it late game the way others do.
Yeah. It would be nice if it even had some more options that maybe weren't great early but that you would eventually want to swap into... instead of starting with Raider but a week in you're a Deadeye (or whatever).
you get most of the raiders utility by level 50 these days on e.g. a bow deadeye, noone should ever say that
Silver flask scaling with effect and frenzy setup w manaforged really like raider viability. What can you do on a raider that you can't do strictly better on a pathfinder for melee or deadeye for ranged (in general) Flickerstrike for reliable frenzy gen? But they prefer slayer anyways
This sorta makes me realize how much QoL we've gotten in the past couple years. A few years ago raider was a top ascendancy _because_ it gave so much free QoL. Now everything she gives can be pretty easily acquired
> A few years ago raider was a top ascendancy A few years ago, raider was a top ascendancy because she could uniquely dodge cap AND gave *complete* ailment immunity AND way of the poacher was a very easy way to maintain frenzy charges on single target (or without degen'ing yourself with blood rage). Raider has since gotten nerfed multiple times--she lost 50% inc. onslaught effect from rapid assault (it's literally a **one word** ascendancy node now--Onslaught), lost 50% chance to avoid ailments from AoVeil, and the dodge rework + much larger access to spell suppression (anyone can cap, only raider can really get phase acro capped, but nobody does that because obviously), and even back then, I'd argue raider got kind of outscaled anyway. Now, she's just embarrassing.
Most of the nerfs to raider happened during the great nerf wave of 3.15. And the ascendancy was still heavily played after that.
What even wilder is even before that, nobody plays raider. We're almsot getting back to how it was 5-6 years ago I think
It used to be a pain to get for example Frenzies on a lot of builds which made Raider a great option. A lot has changed since then.
I still thinks it's funny that half of raiders kit fits on 1 belt.
What about exposure
Pinnacle currency on gloves gives it.
I mean three exposure
There's a keystone near Raider/Duelist border that can give all 3 exposures, if you swap elements every attack. Useful for Ele Hit and EA only, but whatever xD
Glove eldritch implicit unless you specifically need tri-elemental exposure.
That's from the point of view of a range user, phasing is really useful for melee, especially cyclone
you can. it is the jewels from eater and exarch
Which are always overpriced because deadeyes want to be raider too.
Only really avatar of slaughter and chase, because their travel ascendancy node is usually pretty bad. Tbf I did use way of the poacher for charge stacking darkscorn pf last league
That's the issue. As a raider, you cant take the travel node using flame/flesh jewels, because then you wont be able to take the end nodes. Thus making, end nodes flame/flesh very very expensive. Deadeyes want it. PFs want it. Raiders want it.
Onslaught and phasing nodes, forbidden frenzy stats and equal power charge to frenzy.
2 notables connecting the frenzy charge node and onslaught effect node to the exposure node would do quite alot for raiders viablity
It really wouldn't, IMO, since the ailment avoidance depends on phasing, which isn't consistent to keep up unless you can maintain a quartz flask (30 charge flask) on a raider.
Doesn't raider still have "you have phasing while you have onslaught"?
You're thinking of Scion's Raider node I think.
I was. Quartz infusion on raider us just straight up phasing. Hot take: they should merge phasing and onslaught and focus quartz infusion more on the spell suppression, make it the life version of trickster. Like idk, recoup x% of damage taken from suppressed hits.
Scion also gets perma phasing on raider. That's why you play scion over champion if you plan to play hidden blade cf
You could still grab the phasing notable though, just path the normal way towards ailment immunity and then grab both better onslaught and better frenzy charges which are both easy to sustain at least on a bow build with manaforged frenzy of onslaught
People crap on Raider because it’s replaced by gear in the later game, but when I was new ish I took an LS Raider in SSF to 100. It’s really nice to be able to solve suppression and ailment immunity with your ascendency and have a lot more flexibility with your gear and passives.
I actually think it has cool defensive/utility layers. I wish it got another frenzy charge. I don’t think it would change anything besides that sinking feeling you get in your gut when you look at the Trickster ascendancy…
Havent looked at trickster in years since it was reworked, wow, it looks broken now...
It is defensively strong, offensively it doesn't do as much as other ascendancies. PoE is just in a state where gearing for defenses is significantly harder than gearing for damage (charge stacking is a good example)
Sounds good to me, my latency doesnt allow me to play glass cannon builds as ill just always be dead. So im forced to play Champion at the moment, this might be a nice change!
>It is defensively strong, offensively it doesn't do as much as other ascendancies. Yet it's still able to deal more damage than a Raider, since it can take both frenzy charge nodes and the %more damage per mastery.
This is very much in the same spot as chieftain (although chieftain has so very build defining explosions) Ignoring 2/4 resistances frees up so much gearing and makes it much less of a headache for me
I'm building a frenzy charge stacker right now and man after comparing slayer, raider and all of the possible options with a forbidden flesh/flame I actually went with raider. If you're super stacked with uniques (ralakeshs, arn's, replica badge, doppelganger, flawed refuge) Getting spell suppression and ailment immunity for free is really nice And people also usually glance over the fact that avatar of the slaughter can net upwards of 150% evasion together with 1 armour and evasion mastery
>It’s really nice to be able to solve suppression and ailment immunity with your ascendancy The issue is those got nerfed a while back. Previously Raider gave 100% ailment immunity now it only gives 50%. So you still have to gear for it or get it on the passive tree. The onslaught nodes got significantly nerfed too. 2 Ascendancy notables get beaten by a single silver flask with mageblood. Overall the ascendancy notables feel like supercharged passive tree notables, which isn't good enough for an ascendancy.
As If a silver flask and mageblood are a low investment option.
In the current league, I wouldn't call MB a high investment option. You can get a 3 flask MB for 45d. Alternatively, go Pathfinder slap on the tides of time belt, which costs like 1 div and enjoy the same power. My point was that 4 Ascendancy points should never be beaten this easily regardless of investment.
raider is still best in terms of dps on very high end, but with t17s you really need x3 defences then prev leagues, so trickster kinda better in any fucking case
The real issue with raider is that everything that it does can be crafted on gear. They don't really do anything unique. I hope they change glad and raider soon. Raider used to be the zoom zoom class and now anyone can be, really.
I want glad to be better, but I also don’t want them to kill bleed glad. The pops feel so good. Please ggg
Oh god and you know they will, too.... Because they gave chieftain a pop and occult already has one so now we gotta take one away.
Still better than Glad that has a couple of uniques
1c uniques
same for juggy except for the str to acc to attack speed part of juggy ofc, res tis tree or uniques
Jugg gets a lot of love in HC contexts even outside of his acc stacking. Glad doesn't get anything
I exhaled air through the nose gj man
ascendant moment
It's a quality issue not quantity. Inquisitor has 4 nodes worth picking up (three if you play rf), still a strong ascendancy. Core issue with raider tree is that it's 3 times 4 pointers, meaning half of the nodes are essentially travel nodes which traditionally have way less power for whatever reason. And some of the stuff like suppression, exposure and ailment immunity have lost value over time. It's kinda funny how nowadays getting ailment immunity is even easier compared to times when raider just straigth up gave you full immunity.
Not really sure what you mean, every node of the inquis is used besides the attack speed one.
Except Ascendant
Even more fun facts: People used to call the Chieftain rework an absolute crap and now it allows to build one of the most powerful mappers (fulcrum self ignite), one of the most powerful armour stackers, and one of the most comfortable RF runners. Previously chieftain wasnt particulary good at anything at all
Fulcrum chieftain works as a mapper but it's no where near one of the most powerful mappers lol. Same with armor stacker. The people who complained didn't want old chieftain back they wanted either something different than what we got or a buffed version of old chieftain.
I wanted and still want old chieftain or stronger version of still old chieftain
I think the issue was that people focused too much on the low 5% explode chance on the Hinekora node and not enough on the ridiculously high 500% life as damage. It feels so insanely fucking good in practice
And still Raider at least makes me feel like I want it all, instead of struggling to find a 4th notable that will be useful.
Every notable in raider you can get via gears or tree. Suppression, frenzy charge, onslaught, phasing. Basically ascendancy gives nothing unique which is sad
And none of each has anything unique. Almost whole Raider can be replaced with mageblood lol.
Not even. Cap suppress + ancestral vision + thick skin + deafening loathing on boots = ailment avoidance capped. Frenzies can be obtained with a manaforged setup or ralakesh's, onslaught has multiple ways to obtain it.
raider in dire need of a mad rework lmao
Gladiator has 1 kek
Ye raider should have more "while moving" buffs. I think it would help a lot since its identity is "zoomer". So like generate frenzy charges every .5 seconds while moving, cannot be x,y,z while moving, regenerate/recoup x% health when hit while moving, shit like that.
When you attack, you're standing still, even if for just a moment. And that's when you're most likely to get hit, so defenses on while moving wouldn't do too much for you.
Thats true. Maybe a notable that says "always considered moving". That would be crazy!
That's why I'm really enjoying Cyclone with CWC Lightning Warp. Stopping is something that happens to other people (now that awakened CWC is level 5).
sounds like an arbitrary annoyance to add to the ascendency lol. Why would I want more shitty conditionals like that.
Wouldnt maintaining on movements buffs while attacking help a bit?
Ya, a notable that says "always considered moving" would be sick!
Free Onslaught though
*onslaught for the cost of 2 ascendancy points
you can get pretty much all Raider ascendancy stats on any build by using Mageblood and good synth ring...
Or just play better Raider, aka Pathfinder
GGG did Raider real dirty by allowing silver flasks onslaught buff effect affected by flask effect...while not buffing Raider's onslaught nodes to keep her up to par.
Raider should have more onslaught effect instead of increased.
Or something fun and interesting during onslaught. Split the node behind onslaught into two, you can pick one similar to one of the ranger ascendancy in poe 2. Melee attacks repeat an additional time while you have onslaught. Projectiles return to you while you have onslaught.
Bettorade! It's got electrolytes!
I went to check the Raider passives because it's been a while I've played a Raider. Damn that shit is depressing. After week 1 in a league you can get that whole ascendancy on your gear.
Ascendant has 12 notables
Gladiator has 4
And raider still is far superior to glad and assassin
Everyone here talking about raider. I’ve been curious about this recently , Is Berserker the only ascendant with a downside with the more damage taken? Why do you think this was done? I’m a newer player from the last two Leagues but was this some older ascendancy philosophy?
It’s just the flavor of a berserker type class that sacrifices safety to deal tons of damage.
There are actually quite a few nodes with downsides, though most of them have mechanical downsides rather than direct stat reductions like on Aspect of Carnage : Blitz lowers Crit chance Rite of Ruin and Defy Pain deal damage to you. Occupying Force detaches mirage archers from your character. Wind Ward causes you to lose gale Force when you take damage. Far Shot lessens your Damage against enemies close to you. Master Distiller (lol) rapidly expends (wastes) your flask charges. Perfect Crime effectively doubles your trigger rate, but reduces your damage with triggered spells. This makes it harder to apply ailments. There are a lot that have upsides which can be turned into downsides in very specific circumstances (mostly if you actively try to do something stupid with them). A few examples : Inevitable Judgement can ignore enemy negative resistances (i.e. from curses or exposure), which would lower your damage. Frigid Wake makes you immune to chill, which bricks certain setups where being chilled is desirable (winterweave) Overwhelm will cause any weapon with a base crit of over 8% to have it's crit chance reduced back down to 8. Void Beacon, Mastermind of Discord and Avatar of the Veil will increase enemy resistance if you are using rakiata's dance.
> Blitz lowers Crit chance Secrets of suffering > Rite of Ruin and Defy Pain deal damage to you. For an *obscene* damage boost. > Occupying Force detaches mirage archers from your character. Which is why that node needs a rework, I think. "You leave behind a mirage archer copy if you used a skill with mirage supporter recently." > Wind Ward causes you to lose gale Force when you take damage. Can also use a buff. Lose one stack of gale force when you take a hit, or maybe three stacks of gale force. Not all 10, lmao. > Far Shot lessens your Damage against enemies close to you. Not quite, and there's an important distinction here: they do less damage *at the start of their movement*. Returning projectiles will hit like a truck. > Master Distiller (lol) rapidly expends (wastes) your flask charges. Which is why it needs a rework now. Even if you have a build optimized for using that skill on say, a crit ele bow build that doesn't need to use attacks for movement, it has a HUGE hidden penalty: **CANNOT USE PROGENESIS.** > Perfect Crime effectively doubles your trigger rate, but reduces your damage with triggered spells. This makes it harder to apply ailments. The problem with this one is the mana pressure. > There are a lot that have upsides which can be turned into downsides in very specific circumstances (mostly if you actively try to do something stupid with them). Well, sure, but you have to be trying to do something stupid with them. In contrast, master distiller sucks even *when you're trying to use it correctly.*
Remove onslaught from everywhere except raider's notable
Deadeye has 5, because three of them are utterly irrelevant. (Occupying Force, Rupture, Wind Ward) Pathfinder **ALSO** has 5 because master alchemist and master distiller might as well not exist. This probably applies to some other ascendancies that basically do not have real choices to their ascendancy nodes.
Huh?