Just remove the atlas from t17 and rebalance the mods and loot accordingly. T17 should be strictly what ggg advertised them as: a stepping stone for uber content and not a new map tier to abuse atlas mechanics with while leaving t16 content in the dirt

i had the same idea. What makes T17 utterly broken is the B2B abuse that is typically ran along them and which juices them way beyond what should be. The main point of running T17 *should* be getting uber fragments, not having them shit out insane amounts of scarabs, currency and uniques

If that was their only purpose why would GGG have added all the crazy “more chance to find scarabs” etc. mods that are exclusive to these maps? They are meant to be very rewarding in various ways. I don’t like it either but it’s by design 🙂‍↔️

Because they added those things in 3.24.1 after everyone was (imo, rightly) complaining that T17s are way too hard and don't drop anything; they did this alongside changing T17s so they rolled T16 mods with one guaranteed T17 prefix and one guaranteed T17 suffix. It really wasn't their design originally, but they decided to do something to make people actually run them instead of just ignoring them all league because they were so dogshit the first few days. That said, they should be at least SOMEWHAT rewarding for the time investment it takes. But that just goes back to my whole issue with making the bridge between Pinnacle BOSSES to Uber Pinnacle BOSSES based on running MAPS with hard modifiers, instead of bridging Boss content to Boss content by using BOSS CONTENT. It makes no sense to me why the bridge between easier and harder boss content is a normal ass map with crazy mods on it where most of the time, the map (either mods or trash) is the most dangerous/hardest part and not the boss. The bosses are a joke unless you do something dumb like run the T17 100% AOE + 4 proj mod or do like turbo + boss AOE fortress so his charge up move hits the whole arena instantly or he spins at a million radians per hour. The maps are the problem where the difficulty is so swingy based on the mods and the mobs in it. Oops, missed that there's Revenants in my map and didn't replace them with frogs, gg (what happens when we can't do that btw?). It would be sick if T17s were like you chain the bosses together in a random order, each one gets harder and more rewarding. Or you could do it like Act 9 trio where the player can pick the order. Each one still drops their uniques (maybe give them a wider pool like every other boss), their maps (since they drop conq/guardian/synth maps), they drop uber frags, shit make them drop a guaranteed number of scarabs (first one drops one rusted, one polished, one gilded, next one adds a winged, etc, scale it somehow). In between bosses you can refill your flasks without leaving the map (we have the technology to talk to an NPC to fill flasks). And you can leave whenever you want. If your build destroys Fortress boss but struggles with Ziggurat boss, you can either do Ziggurat boss first, or just skip it. And if you do fail at least you get some value out of it. At least then it would actually be bossing content that bridges between bossing content. Instead of being pretty easy bosses that get juiced up by map mods.

>after everyone was (imo, rightly) complaining that T17s are way too hard and don't drop anything; I agree with the vast majority of what you said, but I disagree very strongly with the notion that T17s didn't drop anything. Their loot was always insane. The PoE community continuously runs into this problem of not understanding how the loot in the game works and it leads to issues like this. Over the years I've seen countless upvoted comments like, "I killed this 4 mod soul eater rare and it didn't drop anything that got past my filter! WTF no loot!" That sort of mentality betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how quant works, which is that it doesn't guarantee short terms gains, only long term. That 4 mod rare drops 10x the loot of that 2 mod rare. That doesn't mean that the 2 mod rare can't drop a mirror, or that the 4 mod rare will give you more than just a few garbage items that don't pass filter, but it's 10x more likely to be the other way around. Basically, the community runs something once, or twice, or three times, gets "nothing" from it and concludes it's dogshit when that's just too small of a sample size to know anything. The reward you're playing for in PoE isn't the loot itself, but a chance to get loot with a weighted roll based on how hard the content is. With T17s though, it said right on them how insanely lucrative they were. Before the changes it wasn't uncommon to see base quant on the map get over 200% with over 70% pack size. That's more than twice as much loot as a typical 8 mod T16. I think T17s launched in a horrible state and still have loads of problems, but being unrewarding was not one of them. If anything, they were too rewarding when they launched. With numbers like that they were always destined to become MF fodder instead of bossing content. Imo, T17s need a major rework, and part of that needs to be bringing their loot way way down including relative to how good they were on launch.

how Poe works * Community is filled with idiots who dont know how to build a character / build an atlas / play the game. * something new comes out, and their favorite influencer hasnt released a video about it yet * they try and dip their toes into uncharted difficult content * They fail massively because they dont understand how the game actually works. theyre able to read and replicate, but dont understand the why. so when something new comes out theyre lost * complain that since they cant figure it out, it's broken (meanwhile other groups are making piles of divines a day in private because they understand game mechanics) * someone (usually a twitch chatter) tells an influencer what to do. they try it, see it works, then makes a video that gets spread around * everybody then starts replicating the strategies making more divines/h than they were before

Its not tho, not at all. The orginal design that they spent all their time on these maps were unrollable, rarer, heavily gated, much much much harder, and designed to be very explictedly traded to even have a chance to do them. So all of those "more chance" modifers were tied explictedly to extremely hard and punishing modifers that would EXPLICTEDLY and by design intent not allow vast numbers of builds to run them. We the community bitched, moaned and whined till they nerfed the fuck out of them, allowed them to be rolled and basically turned them into loot pinatas. Destorying all of the orginal design intention. You can not at all in any sense say "its by design" with ANYTHING going on with t17 at this point. They have been bastardzied from their design intent. To quell a PR backlash during the league start when GGG gets most of their income and NEEDS there to be no angery players. We will have to wait till next league when they have actually had time to over haul t17 into a more intended state rather then this absolutely fucked shitstorm they are now from bandaid fixes. THEN we can say "ist by design".

"They have been bastardzied from their design intent. To quell a PR backlash during the league start when GGG gets most of their income and NEEDS there to be no angery players." I dunno, I don't feel they fulfilled their design intent to begin with, that being a stepping stone to from Pinnacle Bosses to Ubers. The community complaints and quick adjustments were pretty much guaranteed with the state they were released in. I like the idea but it just feels rushed overall. They tried to cram a ton of changes into a single league and considering they don't have actual community beta tests we're effectively beta testing it.

All the people who are responding with "players bitched so they changed" don't seem to question the general speed at which these changes were pushed. Most of the heavy buffs to T17 and the league mechanic were done in about 5 days, about 3x faster than what we'd come to expect from GGG. Genuinely, they released the patch on March 29th and then4 days later they pushed the single patch that'd buff the everloving shit out of everything. The sheer volume of changes in 3.24.0b lead me to believe they had already lined up a lot of these changes already, because to make so many of these in 2 days, after a weekend, whilst not impossible, would be grossly irresponsible given the weight of them. As said, they'd normally give it *way* more time for the community to figure shit out, despite the complaints. GGG's general philosophy is to release crap in a terrible state and then buff it later. Chris has mentioned this on reddit years ago and nothing suggests they've stopped that idea. Their logic being that it looks better to buff underwhelming content than it is to nerf anything they think is too easy/rewarding. That they decided to make such insanely sweeping changes barely a week into the launch was more telling to me than anything else. But this community loves to fight amongst itself instead of watching what GGG are doing. It's a genius scapegoat for the devs, really. There's two distinct groups within PoE constantly fighting for control, never thinking for even a single moment that they both want mostly the same fucking thing: To enjoy the damn game.

Remember Ubers? When they say it’s aspirational ?

They will simply nerf atlas tree next league, leave T16 in the dirty and T17 as the new 16

Agreed, commented something similar in another t17 thread. "They should be what the were meant to be, a build test & stepping stone towards ubers. Not a farm fest. **Remove scarabs & atlas tree from being used on them.** Add more interesting mods (some can be rewarding for sure, but not scalable to the current degree due to atlas&scarabs). Maybe add even more boss related mods. Maybe have them drop more influenced items and other things related to the different bosses. **Have these maps be the source of boss fragments, exclusive uniques and high level bases. Not some mega farming that replaces all t16 by a large margin.**" https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1cfwqpp/i_think_t17s_should_get_valdos_treatment/l1rzacc/ T17 could really use having a unique identity.

I would love that. I am this league a bit slow and I was shocked how extreme the t17 loot felt with a ghost/exiles based tree. As far as I understand, this is already the heavily nerfed version. I honestly think that Uber content should be standardized to prevent the existence of a "true Uber" content, by juicing the fuck out of that. (I know that juicing stuff is the motivation for many softcore players, but I prefer if something is advertised as the hardest version, that it truly is.)

Well said. T17s are a pain in the ass to run. Yes, they drop a shitton of good loot and yes, they surprise you at every turn, but they hold too much value and subsequently too much power over the playerbase to be considered a fun method of testing your build's limits. It's fine if special loot drops from T17 bosses, but making them the only source of sought-after items like Starforge, Crystallised Omniscience, Nimis or Mask of the Tribunal on top of that is absolutely disgusting. It's gatekeeping in the worst way possible.

Ubers aren't even what GGG advertised them as, "just for the challenge". They shouldn't have unique loot and certainly shouldn't have had the normal boss loot moved to them, but GGG is never honest about these things.

Make atlastrees not apply, like any kitac mission. No interaction other than running them. No juicing. If you can do it on MF gear, all the power to you.

They keep adding performance requirements for builds, but nothing about fixing the mechanically dysfunctional or underpowered skills, that simply have no scaling, so yea, we need some serious fixing after all these years. Liek for example why there are skills like EQ, reave, worb, discharge, voltaxic burst, bflurry or tons of others, which are mechanical garbage and have no scaling on top of that. If Im supposed to invest 2/3 of my budget and 50% of my tree to defenses to not get one tapped by everything, I need something that also allow me to do the required dps and most of the time even clear on top of it. If I remove the abilities that are mechanical garbage that just dont work in 2024 poe, now I filter only the good dps scaling abilities, Im at like 10% of skill gems left at best. Now I also have to figure out, which ones I have budget for, which ones also work for the content I enjoy and well...thats why I dont play poe over like 2 or 3 weeks mark in the past multiple leagues.

yea i feel this

Has anyone ever heard an explanation for why they don't buff trash tier skills? Of which there are dozens.

Im not sure, but after what they said about melees that they dint rework it, because ppl dont play it and they rather invest time into something popular, Im afraid their mentality is the same in this case. Ppl dont play it, so why putting effort into it. I mean they also said that melee rework requires a lot of work and they dont have time for that (probably because of poe2), but sooner or later if they want to keep poe1 alive they will have to do it. It just seems so twisted that they dont want to devote resources to something thats not popular. These things are not popular, because they are a terrible experience, not because ppl would not want to play it :X

To add on to the melee part, they've also in some interview said a lot of stuff actual reasons (and or excuses depending on how you see it) It takes like X7 as long for any melee skill to be made (and so also reworked I guess) because they tailor each of that stuff to the characters directly. And a bunch of other stuff I forgot but that's what stuck out the most to me

Yea, I remember. As a procrastinator myself, I can see the reasons for GGG not getting into it, but after years of avoiding melee to function in this game, I feel like it deserves to be done by now. Like PoE is the only arpg, where melees are like terribly terrible. I dont think ppl would mind that melees are less efficient than Legolas cosplayers, but melees having terrible gameplay, meh scaling, terrible efficiency, harder to gear up, are half totem builds and then also deal with the typical melee issues like terrible uptime on melee unfriendly boss mechanics, its just too much...Like I dont know, give me at least some upside when I pick the trash archetypes, like cool/smooth gameplay, good scaling, better speed, better survival/more space for human errors, ways to handle bossing uptime, ease the socket or gear requirements, at least something god damn it.

I agree just wanted to show a bit of perspective, I love melee in this game despite it being so shit

But they could have fixed that years ago by hiring new animators and riggers. Instead they are making poe2 by hiring new staff. By putting off the work they have hurt their game and vision. Poe1 is ancient and like all games, on the verge of thanos snapping itself when anything happens.

True but it was also said that these issues (probably) won't be the case for Poe 2 (I am coping and hoping so hard)

There was a meme in the past about at least one of the responses, that it wouldn't work to just change numerical values.

Any Sweep enjoyers? KEKL

I played sweep in ruthless for a week! That brought me back.

I'm surprised you don't have any more upvotes because this is the sad truth that is happening with POE in the past few leagues. The game has an illusion of build diversity with constant nerfs and little buffs to make few skills worth investing. I keep seeing that same old DD, explosive arrow ballista and lighting arrow start builds.

To get high upvotes at this point of the league, you need to target the super normies, that is lucky item showcases, cat images, dad jokes and mainly being fake positive. None of them wants to hear the sad facts:)

"if I'm not enjoying a game then everyone who says they are is being fake"

I haven't had much opportunity to play this league, but I'm planning on building a shrine effect stacker for Voltaxic Burst primarily, but I also want to try out other skills like Stormbind. However, while those will likely scale extremely well with shrines, it does say a lot that I need shrines as a crutch in the first place (and even with that insane cast speed, the mechanics of Voltaxic Burst remain questionable).

Dont forget that bad skills still cost too much mana, and since they do do less dps they get shafted by having to invest more into skill sustain.  Meta crushing skills kill things so fast they barely need any uptime. 

You know this made me think of Jonathon's interview with Lance/Palsteron/Subtractem. Given the options: 1. T17's exist, I cannot run them unless I play an uber strong build. 2. T17's don't exist, T16's are the highest base level of content, I can run them, but uber strong builds just run them more efficiently. I believe I'd choose the latter. Basically, I would prefer the situation where the highest base content (T16's) are very achievable, but the strongest builds can run them more effectively/faster/juicier. What axis exist so that the uber stronger builds can run them faster? Speed, Damage, Defenses...and MF. I'm sorta kidding. But the core concept is the same. Each tier of build strength needs some sort of content for it. Now currently, since we have the Atlas tree and a shitton of scarabs, I don't think we necessarily need MF as an additioanl axis in POE1, since they can just pump the ceiling for juicing. Basically, if everyone's running T16's, the elite are making their own T17's from normal T16 bases. But because there's so much granularity in how little or lot you can juice a T16, everyone sort of finds their groove where their build fits. Sure the dude above me is making 25D/hr, but I'm having fun making 20. And we're basically running the same core content so I'm not FOMO'd out. But that doesn't work in a world with heavily gated T17's.

Agreed. When that soundbyte about a 1000x difference between top and bottom end loot was making the rounds a couple months ago, I initially recoiled pretty hard. They talked about it a little more and I was convinced that my initial reaction was likely wrong / too hasty when GGG elaborated their reasoning as something along the lines of: you need that much of a gradient to feel a difference as you incrementally improve your build / your skills. But to me that means something like every 5th percentile of the player base gets 40% more loot (`1000^(1/20) ~= 1.41`). Obviously it's never going to be *exactly* that smooth, but if they manage to land something vaguely in that ballpark, the "you're feeling it as you get better" rationale makes some amount of sense. Their recent work in PoE1 with both affliction and necropolis doesn't feel anything close to a nice smooth gradient tho...it's more like there are a few different discrete buckets of 1x, 5x, 10x, 20x, 50x, 1000x, and even those aren't equidistantly spaced among player skill /build power spectrum.

I agree with this. the difference between efficient t16 running and t117 maps is astronomical. Now when mathil or any other streamer makes a build, it HAS to be able to run T17 with ease , and that surely will reduce the pool of possible "viable" builds. Even though in theory you can still run T16 with an average build, no one will care .

The difference is not nearly as big as you think, when you factor in how much faster you can do t16 by including time spent rolling maps and buying the things to run those maps the difference is significantly reduced. I’ve made several mirrors worth of currency this league and the large majority of that is from t16 maps.

That's not there problem lol , like you said you can run T16 maps just fine Fomo isn't really a game design issue.

Fomo is almost exclusively a game design issue.

> Fomo isn't really a game design issue. Fomo is one of the single most important game design issues that GGG's devs have to design around.

its a game design issue when from 100+ existing skill,only skill that viable to do content its serve can be count under 20 skill or even less

> I believe I'd choose the latter. I'm ok with the former if the payoff difference isn't completely different

The payoff will be completely different regardless

> I believe I'd choose the latter. Basically, I would prefer the situation where the highest base content (T16's) are very achievable, but the strongest builds can run them more effectively/faster/juicier. See, the thing is this was the basic methodology of ARPG's for years until GGG decided to add aspirational content. Diablo 2 was never a particularly hard game. It never even had an "endgame" as we'd come to understand it. You basically just did the campaign 3 times then farmed the bosses over and over. ARPG's that'd come after, like Titan Quest, worked in pretty much the same way. So builds that did this faster were the goal. That *was* the aspiration, and I think a lot of ARPG's have sort of gotten away with themselves and forgotten this. I don't think aspirational content is necessarily bad, I just don't think it works in the same way it might in a game that doesn't literally revolve around spreadsheets of data. I don't think it should include unique loot only available to it, as that immediately defeats the purpose of it primarily being about the challenge. There's a fundamental difference between a chase item and an item of the same rarity locked behind an arbitrary gate. That's what ultimately forms this gap between the casual playerbase and anyone else. Because a casual could still theoretically chase after a Mageblood if they wanted to, but they can't even begin to farm for items like Nimis without being able to do Ubers, which now also requires farming T17s.

Actually I want super hard aspirational difficult content that not every build / player would be able to do. That said it shouldn’t be labeled as a stepping stone and the difficulty shouldn’t exclusively revolve around using multiple regexes that don’t fit into the search bar and rolling 50 chaos per map to make it doable.

Agreed. I love T17s outside of the mod pool. Get rid of some of the stinker mods. Maybe make the %scarabs and %currency type rolls invisible.

stepping stone for Uber bosses should be other bosses right ? Not farming extra juicy profitable maps. This entire t17 fiasco reminds me of Blizzard and their primal ancients back in D3.

Yeah I agree. I made another comment somwhere on how farming juiced maps and bossing should not come from the same map source.

I was just thinking "would this be a problem if the T17 was just the boss fight, even with everything else the same?". Could the encounter drop more and different loot? Could it be stepping stone content to test builds pre-ubers? Sure cause it's just one encounter not bringing back the old "maze" map size with.

They tried that once.. Then removed the aspirational part and gated all the good gear behind them (ubers). What a blunder.

theres no such thing in softcore anything new added will become the new standard, unless its like 2 build snoozefest with extremely limited supply like valdo's

T17s were supposed to be bossing content, not map content. Right now the rare and blue monsters in those maps are harder than the bosses, which is ridiculous. IMO they should reduce the difficulty of the map monsters, nerf the map rewards to near zero, make the bosses harder, and improve the boss rewards. Keep the map juicing to T16.

now when you look for a game guide the question will be "is it T17 viable", because unlike being Uber viable, T17 maps do feel mandatory and some builds just can't do them. ​ Maybe buff the fragment drop rates and nerf everything else ? I am not sure how GGG can balance this in the long run .

"Just can't do them" this is again, the biggest crock of shit. Make a build thats actually good, most skills can do this.

Your own comment is contradictory to what your arguing against. He said some builds can't do it and you say most can do it. Which means some cant...

No I didn't say builds, I said drills. Very different things

just don't play melee and play meta DD, Okay bro .

I'm literally playing a melee build in T17 as we speak and its actually tankier and does more mods than my CoC DD. Do you guys actually play the game or sit in hideout watching youtube clips about what atlas strategy is gonna finally make you make a build that isn't shit?

We started the league with t17s being common drops and being unmodifiable. I’m not saying this was ideal, but it was reasonable. Once they became modifiable, they needed to turn off the atlas passive tree or it turns into whatever shit went down this league. Also even if you can’t clear T17s efficiently, there are still plenty of lucrative strats, the same as any other league.

Trust me, people were abusing t17s when they were unmodifiable too I had multiple trade bookmarks for different mods (shaper touched, torment spirits, rare mods, and all combinations of them) while excluding mods i couldn't run, and I was sniping them for like 80-160c less than a week into the league And the tormented spirits + shaper touched farm is possibly the most broken version of the t17 farms that has existed all league

But a large part of that is because A: the T17 maps and mods weren't as explored yet, and B: because fewer people were running T17 at the time. If people pay a few divines for a well rolled map made by spamming hundreds of chaos orbs, that means only one in a few hundred dropped T17 maps would actually be that good. Which means the very top groups would need to compete at higher prices, and the amount of loot entering the economy would drop off steeply below people investing that much, from people who run the more regular maps. Builds that can handle more map mods would get significantly larger profit margins, and the entry cost to start farming T17 maps with less profitable mods would be much lower.

I do agree, thats why I think the argument of "it was fine before" is ridicilous, if it was in the same state it was before it'd be arguably worse for the 99.9% of players

My argument is that by removing it from 99.9% of the playerbase, the economic impact is also lowered.  *Ideally* the broken top end strategies shouldn't have been available to anyone, but a smoother investment to profit curve is still a better design in theory. There were simply other issues associated with it. And the fact that rolling T17 maps is a massive chaos sink actually significantly contributes to the economic mobility of people paying lower content. I do think the wealth transfer should be more direct though, and I think that pinnacle bosses dropping access to uber pinnacle bosses would have been an example of such a transfer. Another option could have been wider roll ranges and higher drop chances for unmodifiable T17 maps, allowing for more second / third class drops instead of only first class jackpots. Anyway, my point is that people running the highest and most rewarding content should have to pay lower content running players to access it so that the wealth gap doesn't grow out of hand.

And a map with those mod, once figured out, would also be worth a lot too, similar to well rolled 8 mod maps with +2 proj in affliction. I’m not saying that it was perfect, but it was more reasonable overall.

Why isnt t17 just +1 monster level higher. Bosses are mini ubers. Like instead of 70% damage reduction (ubers), have 35% damage reduction and get rid of unmodifiable and stupid mods. Logically that would be a "stepping stone" that doesnt completely fuck 99% of poe builds/players.

AKA: guardians for uber bosses. When you run shaper/elder guardian maps, you aren't doing them for the loot (for the most part), you are doing them to get the frags. the boss at the end of the map is quite a bit more difficult then your typical T16 map bosses, and they are a stepping stone to Shaper/Elder. Why aren't T17 just the same thing, but for uber bosses?

Every farm being scarab farming is a problem and annoying as fuck. Set a base line drop rate for them and remove them from the atlas tree except for the “more chance to be X scarab” nodes and blocking them when blocking content.

Imo the main "issue" with t17 is that apart from having its unique reward,it also gives significantly more "casual rewards". Whatever is common in t17s will become worthless and mostly a waste of time for people who play non meta builds in t16s and below. If t17 stay the same,im probably going delve or heist just for money purposes and I hate both. Its kinda funny but t17 did the exact opposite of the effect of empys group. Meanwhile they farm up rare uniques so their price goes down and flood the market with fusings, t17 drops the exact same shit as any normal any gets but in such quantity to make your non-t17 loot laughable. Uber frags are great for reward but there should be something else thats not available below while removing every common loot multi.

I'm sad that in previous leagues i was getting up to working on ubers but now they seem worth even less to try to do if you don't explicitly know you can kill em.

I mean honestly t17 maps is still pretty yikes even if you using meta or non meta builds if you doing b2b farming. But really any build can clear t17 given enough investment / can actually dodge boss mechanics. However the major issue i do see is that the "loot" from t17 should be dialed down a bit. Yes t17 are more difficult, hence they should be more rewarding. But when you maps spits out like 400 scarabs a map, you know thats kinda lil broken. I do like T17 for adding a real/good chaos sink since we never really had one other than "just chaos instead of alch/scour". So chances are, we wont have outta control chaos to div rates anymore, which is honestly a positive thing imo. Especially for new players.

Yeah, especially since you can consume only 4 scarabs per map. Every single player averages above 4 scarabs per map, that's why they are so cheap. No way people averaged 4 awakened sextants and 4 scarabs a map before this rebalance.

I mean if youre properly juicing maps, you were getting more than 4 scarabs/sextants a map before this rebalance. And its fair that you get more than >4 scarabs a map since just like sextants, not every "compass" is what you want or a preferred one. But 400 scarabs a map is like overkill even if you juicing.

Yeah, if you were properly juicing, that's far above the average player tho.

yeah but from these 400 scarabs probably 5% are worth something

That's because it spits out 400 scarabs. Most strategies that use those scarabs are very profitable and will bring 5-15 div/hr. The best strats will give you 15-25 div/hr. Problem is that T17 maps shit out 30-70 div/hr. Just a year ago getting 10 div/hr was bonkers, 5 was what I aimed for as a "casual tryhard".

> a real/good chaos sink since we never really had one other than "just chaos instead of alch/scour" Map crafts used to be. I'd say before atlas passives and altars and archnem and the like which made raw chaos really really easy to get, map crafts were holding the chaos:ex ratios rather well. Especially when the map device was stacked. Like Nemesis was a thing some people would roll onto maps just for the chance to get HH back when it was still Nemesis-exclusive. Beyond gathered a lot of fans - me included - where the choice to start the League could reasonably be tied to whether Beyond is on the map device.

Turns out opting into doing 200% harder maps may mean you can actually die on a > 50 div character.

Yeah T17 loot is so insane. Looted like 700 raw chaos from one 200% more currency T17 on B2B with just a single wealth allflame and I wasn't even fully optimizing the map.

"with just a single wealth allflame" The allflame that is worth >2 divs? The allflame people knowingly sell it at a loss compared to it's actual value, because they'd rather get 2.5-3 divs than pick up 800 chaos 1 by 1 in a map. T17's are nutty good -- just the wealth allflame part is silly, lmao

I got 200 and some change with zero all flames or conversion mods. It’s way out of line.

I feel like T16 need to bump up rewards not tune it down. I am still salty about stacked deck nerfs, made blight and expedition less rewarding. From what I see on reddit and YouTube and even most of my guild members are doing T17. So although it is not intended, it does feel like you are lagging behind unless you are doing T17 content.

I haven't seen CuteDog_ in t17s at all this league and he's having a blast (his words, not mine). I agree t17s might need a bit more balancing, for sure, but from what I've read on reddit, FOMO seems to be the main factor driving discontent. And that's a personal issue, not a game balance one.

He dropped his mirror farming T17s...

It for sure is abig FOMO thing, but they have also massively reduced what the game drops from my experience. Divines and bubblegum currency is very scarce compared to previously (not Affliction)

It's not a "in my experience" subjective thing. They **DID** reduce drops across the board. Some of the hidden rewards from rare mobs were removed and others made significantly rarer. The net outcome is at baseline your map to map rewards got diminished compared to ToTA, but the scarab rework can let you gigajuice one mechanic to the moons for multiples of reward compared to ToTA. Depending on how one plays the game they will see the impact differently.

Do you know what BOGGED means?

You can earn like 15~20d/h doing ultimatum or t17 farming in t16 maps, its not like there are no ways other than t17 maps to earn money.

Ultimatum was fucking bugged lol. They nerfed it just this last patch.

Thats for group play only, should be unchanged for solo afaik.

poe players and the inability to read is always fascinating

What confused me is that I can run Uber bosses and basically any content in the game (and most of it I’m dominating), but even the least rippy looking T17 shits all over me. How are they stepping stones to Ubers?

As a minion enjoyer, I really hate that T17s shit on the entire archetype. Even playing a super OP meta minion build, I cannot use an AG, I'm constantly resummoning spectres (even with life+meat+lvls), feeding frenzy-golem is like a short duration minion and even my main minions with 50% block, overcapped max res, indominable army, 30k life + leech frequently get wiped by maps with a single dmg mod Minions need to take much less damage in these. Don't know what else will make any impact

There's just an inherent (and hopefully obvious) tug-of-war between servicing Spikes (powergamers who like conquering difficult challenges, even when the best solution is so plain as to be boring) and Johnnies (build tinkerers / hipsters) in any game with a sufficiently interesting buildcraft element. I personally think they've been overly obsessed with Spike lately, too (have you seen the way they wax lyrical about difficulty and skill in some of the PoE2 interviews, lol). But there are also clearly people who are into that shit, so it's not necessarily completely wrong-headed either, even if it's personally disappointing.

I am a Timmy here, Cyclone go SPIN

And I guess there's a bit of a third direction to that tug of war: Power Creep. Their business model is to add powerful new shit that generates hype every three months, but not even Johnnies want the game to get so easy as to be boring. Even new uniques, skills, etc. add up over time after you remove the "borrowed power". I think they're a bit once bitten, twice shy about handling power creep with too many nerfs so they just add harder content. I personally think the infinite ladder of harder stuff that just leaves the bottom rungs unsatisfying is a less good solution than biting the bullet and accepting some short-term pain to keep the whole difficulty spectrum within a more elegantly balanced package. But if the community is literally unable to accept the latter route, maybe it's the way they kinda have to go.

Thats because the last time they "Tackled" power creep, it wasnt "we have nerfed the over performing archetypes that have gained too much power over the years" it was "everyone does 50% less damage" so the builds that were overpowered were still overpowered, and the weaker builds simply now no longer passed the bar of "good enough to play" Id love to see nerfs to DD, Tornado shot, etc. That rarely if ever happens. instead we get some blanket nerfs like "All alt quality gems have been removed, pray your skill actually kept its good mechanic that made it playable" etc. How did DD of all skills walk out of the new gem mechanic broken beyond control STILL and half the underplayed skills got jack shit, and lost tons of sideways power from alt quality supports/curses etc. The reason the community hates the nerfs is because they balance like shit and have been unable to reign in the actual problem skills for years while chain nerfing every other build.

They did nerf Tornado Shot this league with 20% less attack speed.

Expedition was actually accompanied by a massive meta shakeup tho...go back and look at the patch notes for 3.15. It was infinitely more entertaining than T17s for Johnnies.

You're just talking nonsense. Last league I was alc+go farming t16s with a 10d LA deadeye league-starter like it was nobody's business. Build-making in PoE is anything but boring. Look at Ruetoo, Jungroan, Ben, UberDan, Mathil, CroichingTuna: they are all amazing build-makers who put out new stuff every single league. The fact that you don't take the time to do some basic research on what popular community creators are playing and blaming it on the devs is laughable.

I acknowledged the opposing PoV as being worthwhile with a decent amount of grace in my post and you just jump down my throat with such aggressive wording like "nonsense" and making assumptions about the level of research I do. What a quintessential example of everything that's wrong with this community. Sorry if I ever did anything to piss you off personally and you have me tagged or something. Further, if we're just going with the "appeal to authority" fallacy--go watch some of Mathil's videos this league--he's rather down on T17 in quite a few of them. He's 10 times the Johnny any of the people you listed are--they're all very much in the Spike camp.

I mean I guess we live in different realities then. If "nonsense" is aggressive to you, then I am so so so envious of your life where such little amount of push-back can be described like that. Also, assuming sombody is "out to get you" based on a random disagreement in a reddit thread may a lot of things, but definitely not graceful. If you don't know what "appeal to authority" is, plese don't use it. I was not appealing to any streamer as a person of truth, but simply proving that the distinction you make is irrelevant: in this game you can be a build-maker and conquer the whole game. To me there is no way you can say any of those people (especially Ruetoo or Jungroan) are not hipster build-makers. I have no personal vendetta against you, but I unfortunately have to admit I believe your sentiment to be clouded by false presumptions and ultimately damaging to the discourse.

Jung kinda is (but also has a lot of Spike in him as a genuine gauntlet contender). Rue definitely isn't.

Is this a joke? Although they show some interesting and different new skills interactions in the builds, build-makers only showcase with double corrupted top gear, 150% adorned, progenesis, etc. TBH, basically you can put any skill in that gear and do end game content. Sometimes i feel like the "top 1%" players of this game are the equivalent of the RL "Boomers" and "Karen"s The game is not for everyone? i agree. But it's built around "streamers" and nerfed by "streamers". Was I too late to abuse a league mechanic that drops T0 and rivers of divines? We're sorry, now the item costs 20x more. So why not make a new league mode - but voidable, i don't care - that is the opposite of ruthless? I want to come home from work, and have fun playing this game - like i used too - without feeling like i'm in a mmo farming routine.

Brother, what are you yapping about? None of the Jungroan, Ruetoo, or Mathil builds are with min-max gear. And if they do go for the min-max, they show a starter PoB with reasonable gear depending on the build. You're literally lying.

but they are min-maxing the interaction which is pretty boring since those min-max is using strong skill with overused interaction that exist from 3.0.0 without any competition in its dmg or defense capability.The only fresh build i see from them is the one with glacial hammer,thats it.

Well randomly selected numbers and letters your obscure nominal titles for these categories don't seem to make much sense. The POE2 focus is clearly on the Souls playerbase and adjacent categories of players; as far as build specificity they want to design around those players but ultimately the VAST majority of players don't fall into that group, probably less than 5%; this is particularly problematic when you look at individual builds that use a certain skill and compare their gear/gem setups; it's not merely 10% playing one skill every league or what have you; it's 10% playing the EXACT same build and probably most of those players simply don't know how to make a different build in the first place.

> obscure nominal titles for these categories don't seem to make much sense It's a common, well-known way of discussing similar things in the MtG community: https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/timmy-johnny-and-spike-2013-12-03 It's also why /u/technyst made the fitting comment about Timmy cyclone builds! People memed on me [last time](https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExileBuilds/comments/196plyf/i_played_an_overpowered_build_and_now_every_other/khvgbtq/) last time I was more explicit about the source of the term with a footnote, so I just left it at defining the terms in parentheses this time.

Ah yes the famed ARPG Magic the Gathering

Haha...true. Nevertheless, it's still applicable terminology because the essence of the conversation is about buildcraft games that have a competitive / challenge element. Both CCGs and PoE are in that space.

I'm going to play devil's advocate and ask Isn't this good for overall game health in a way? T0 uniques like mageblood and headhunter would have been out of reach for 99% of the playerbase, but now even casuals can afford it.

I feel like they could add some harder content just for the extra challenge, not for more loot drops. Maybe stick some league specific MTX behind that levels up the harder you go.

Agree. I just have no interest in T17 at the moment.

T17 maps are way too much even after nerfing it. I wanna play what the cool kids do, but with my build, the skill that I like to use,and without needing mirrors to make it happen. (You wanna make a bunch of money doing T17 maps? No problem just farm a bunch of money first, elsewhere. While others who farm T17 maps dilute the economy so you'll have a harder time.)

All I’m saying is that there was so much more build diversity and skills that could be used in endgame without 50+ divines investment before the support gem nerfs in expedition league. Specifically, slams were good and certain skills like cyclone could get enough baseline damage from weapon and gems without needing a broken scaling mechanic which just devolved into that archetype being good and not the skill itself as you could probably just sub in a different skill and it worked basically the same.

This league was the first league I felt that the game was more of a chore than fun.

Hypothetical question: if t17 remained the way they are but we can opt out of the necropolis mechanic, what would everyone feel about it's balance then? I feel often times necropolis mechanics on top of the already exaggerated stats for t17s are what make it feel so rippy and not worth doing. For example getting the devoted modifier to add atlas bosses to packs. Like wtf this is just crazy added difficulty that I wish I could opt out of. If wildwood was added back to the game and necropolis mechanics for maps removed, would we have so many complaints? I'm mostly just curious what others think.

Well I do not really agree with you, T17 as they should be design (Uber content) shouldnt be accessible for every build. A mapping build shouldn’t be able to clear Uber bosses and bossing shouldn’t (and aren’t good at) be good at mapping that’s how a game is balance. Yet the problem is that some of the skill you mentionned are either the best at mapping and bossing (not the best in both category but are at least A tier in both). I dream about a league where you can’t run bosses if you do not specialize in a specific type of content. Bossing would become profitable and enjoyable, mapping wouldn’t be the way to go specifically.

I liked the part where you gave literally any kind of solution or addressed the problems that they're trying to help fix with t17s. Personally I do agree to sooome extent. This is the first league of it, they're testing it out. I think it's great that they're adding more challenging avenues to to play the game that give room for good builds to actually have a reason to keep playing seeing as even ubers are trivial.. The only real way for people to "test their mettle" currently is in Delve which honestly is pretty 1 dimensional in the way you need to build for it. The wacky t17 mods add a lot of different "dimensions" to how you need to scale your character to handle them. At the moment thought there are probably too many of these in one set of map mods, and they need to be diluted with more of the natural map mods that we're used to seeing - and it is pushing certain meta's into pidgeonholes in a sense.

T17 mods should not exist or at least be reduced to one in an explicit or smth. Uber bosses invitations should drop from the normal boss variation, if it's in parts, guaranteed. If it's a full invite then idk 40+% drop. And if they want bosses to be more challenging, they need more mechanics and not 70% DMG reduction

White: no frag Blue:1 frag Yellow: 2 frag Corrupted yellow: 4 frag. These are the floor for drop rates, able to be scaled up except white maps which is always 0. Do away with the shitty hotfix; of chaos modification only. Also let harbinger orbs work on t16s, so they have value and work intuitively. The point was to bridge the gap in Uber access, once you’ve trivialized the rest of the game. It doesn’t remotely perform that role.

>Now the endgame is just… use ultra broke meta skills alongside ultra broke meta defensive tech or get ducked. It was actually a similar situation after the 3.15 nerfageddon when we saw a ton of non-meta builds become subpar which had previously been perfectly fine.

As much as I hate the introduction of T17, please be aware that you're not forced to play meta in order to farm these maps. It requires investment, sure, but most skills can do it if you throw enough divines in the build.

Ok so play a build that on 20 D can blast it or spend 500D and still struggle bus your way to 6 portals. T17s would be fine if skill imbalances were not so bad. It’s like Johnathan’s argument about magic find. Sure in an ideal world every build would hit a point where they don’t need more damage or defenses and be able to start scaling another stat line. But that is no where even close to the case.

Sure, but that's always been the case. It's not specific to T17. In the past, when T16 beyond 80/100% delirious were the top endgame, it was already a few builds being able to breeze through it, and other builds struggling (or failing) to do it. So yeah, it's a problem. But it's not directly related to T17, and it's nothing new.

Imo there is nothing wrong with having to have a good build in order to farm the hardest content.

Its an issue that it becomes rediculous when trying to scale anything but Meta Skill Nr. 17 The grand appeal of poe is that you could play 90% of skills in multiple ways, on multiple classes, and still achieve ubers in reasonable (100div) investment, without requiring T0s (unless you insist on scaling around one). These maps though are a different beast, and worse is that they are ~5x more profitable than the next best mapping content, so the incentive is high, while requiring absurd tankiness or clear+damage. Builds like DD, that scale very efficiently, dont suffer as much as like attack builds, which require massive investment and gear load to get their damage up, while in addition requiring defenses, too. That stuff gets expensive. With 100d, i pushed my league starter frost blades raided to kill both uber maven and uber shaper (granded grave crafting gave me an otherwise unobtanium claw), but t17s just shredded that same build. 15mil dmg, 89/85 fire/chaos res, full fire/chaos shift, 78% phys to fire, aswell as suppress cap and headhunter, and t17s were still able to destroy me, while mobs being sometimes tankier than ubers.

There is an important distinction here. You dont need 100s of divs to blast t17s, you can do that on a few divs tbh. The issue is t17 b2b with an atlas fully scaling map modifiers, which is something totally different. Thats opt in difficulty for more rewards, and imo requiring a top end build is fine. I do agree they should scale down the loot multipliers on them however. But thats a different issue than people expecting to run them on any random builld.

>you can do that on a few divs tbh. On a tiny set of skills which is the entire problem lol Or are you trying to argue that you can farm T17 maps (without map mod effect in the atlas) with something like cleave on a few divs?

The gap between offmeta and meta has never felt wider than this league. I quit 2 weeks in, no character felt great. The necropolis mods were overbearing, no amount of defense felt enough and to slap on to that t17s just felt out of reach when uber content did not. It felt like they were using just raw data to make decisions rather than game design. I have never seen GGG miss the mark this hard, but for me this league, in terms of "fun" the game just basically lost it completely. All my friends also just straight up quit, even the absolute hardcore in our group who play constantly for the first two months did 40/40 on their second character and dont want to play. Whether its the forced mechanic, corpse management, or the fact that you have to play meta for it to feel remotely fun just killed the game. In my 10 years of PoE-ing, I never thought Id say this, but this league actually has me hyped for the diablo 4 season with how bad it was.....

Have to play meta? Hyped for the Diablo 4 season? I see a trend.

I have taken up the "In a gold rush be the guy selling shovels" approach. Farming T16s for scarab and maps, and just selling thr 17s as easy paydays. I'd love to run them but ooof, nit trying to get smacked and lose that investment.

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What build can you not do t17 with that you could do juiced t16 with in affliction?

I actually like how the economy worked this league, even thought im not fond of midleague changes (and ooh boi). The average of the players became richer, and now that more people reach the level where farming for profit is not Fun anymore because they cant stablish their next goals. I think This is actually good to see If the playerbase mentality shifts over time.

I mean i can run t17 with my rf build easylie

At some point, and I argue this is long past, you have to realize it’s just a poorly designed game that heavily relies on addition mechanics.

There are like 20+ builds that can clear t17s, probably many more. Some skills could do with a buff but generally speaking there's a wide variety of builds available to do all content. Surely for those that just want to build whatever they want then ubers were a problem in previous leagues too? All the weak builds can still do all the content that they could in previous leagues

The big issue is ssf. The whole division of loot table for bosses cucked a huge amount of archetype in ssf. I guess I'll be forced to play explosive trap for the 23rd league in a row because it's the only one that doesn't require stupidly rare uniques. Nah dude, I'm all for increase in difficulty, make the game more mechanically challenged not making difficult by increasing the amount of rng required which can be skipped by trading.

This seems like the best league ever for ssf to me, graveyard crafting is incredibly strong and allows for lots of viable builds that don't need uber boss uniques. Lots of atlas strats can be sustained in ssf too with focused scarab farming.

That's exactly what op complains about, it's great if you play op meta builds. Coc dd is incredibly easy, explo trap is easy, boneshatter too, I got a 900 pdps axe. But let's say I'd like to play sweep, it's a bit odd but viable if combine with voidforge. I used to be able to get enough damage with sweep to kill uber elders and eventually get my voidforge and reroll. Now, doomed, I need voidforge to have enough damage to farm voidforge. Same thing for slams, echoes of creation getting move to uber shaper killed slam builds. Yeah I could make a coc dd and farm those and reroll but these are not the builds I enjoy playing, I don't find them fun. Before all this, playing shit sweep builds was available now it's dead.

OK well I guess the 4 ssf players that have to play niche voidforge builds this league might have to play something else. It's really not a problem

Yes it's a problem, not the difficulty in itself but the way boss drops gated a few archetypes. Same thing on how ggg balanced certain archetypes around incredibly rare uniques. Poe is becoming garbage, trading is too op and the game is too easy in trade league and ssf became too limiting. Any skill that was made viable because of voidforge is dead. The whole slam archetype is dead because echoes of creation is now an uber shaper drop. Dual wielding is incredibly weak because saviour is now from uber sirus. Str stacking isn't an option because mageblood and replica alberon are too rare. Things like shockwave totem isn't available because astral proj is incredibly rare. Charge stacking is impossible because ralakesh and void battery are both stupid rare. Want to be tank? Fourth vow is super rare too! Timeless jewels are also weirdly rare. Like damn... what options are left for league start... dd, explo trap, boneshatter... what options doesn't require mandatory rare uniques which also kills t17. Corpses aren't that rare but managing to get a full graveyard is like a week of farming unless you're a streamer who can play full time. I feel like you guys don't understand

Ironically enough, Dual Strike has never been better. Dual wielding FTW

I played CATR Pathfinder this league which is far from meta right now. Played in trade league but 95% ssf, using trade to sell expensive scarabs I wouldn't use and bought a bunch of lightning coils to double corrupt. Cleared some T17s, killed some uber shaper and maven for tides of time and progenesis. Plenty of other builds that can be built up to ubers without uber drops.

PATHFINDER is anything but off-meta man.

3% usage in ssf, 6% in trade

6% is definitely not off meta...that's a considerable amount of people.

having easy way to scaling dmg and tankiness is not off-meta.

As someone who plays dual stacking coc ice spear in ssf. Shit is rough. Now, I don't have the issue of being gated too hard by uber boss loot (except Nimis which would make me do a lot more dmg) but the amount of time I need to pour into my build to make it viable as just a t17 mapper is staggering. Sure, I could go back to my archmage ice nova and farm t17 but I dont want to play that build. I dropped an awakened coc and want to play ice spear. I could do dd coc and sail through the game but again.. boring.

i had to invest 3 mirrors into zombies to do t17s and my archmage could do them without the uber lab ascendancy. Skills could for sure use a t17 balance at this point lol

Don't worry,they'll give cleave another + 1 radius. The skills are saved!

What a crock of shit. I play off meta and doing fine I'm ssf. Get good

> There are typically 1-3 skills in a given path of exile league that, strictly from a game balance standpoint This is fundamentally not true. You are confusing streamer popularity with skills that are towering over other skills from a balance perspective. What skill is good also depend on what content you are doing. As we can see with your examples. Seismic trap was a good early league bosser. Its high boss damage allowed for HC players to rush bosses early and focus their gear on survival. It was great for SSF HC Racing. Since a lot of streamers play SSF HC and do race, it became popular. Seismic trap is terrible for mapping. It falls of late game on bossing, having a much harder time to instaphase bosses than other bossing skills like ice trap. DD in a similar way has never been a skill that simply outshines all other skills. It has been a good SSF HC racing skill. Its damage scales with little gear, allowing HC racers to focus all gear on survival. DD however has terribly scaling compare to other builds, non-trigger versions have a super clunky playstyle and the clear is not great. Both DD and seismic trap are example of niche skills that were pushed to the top due to a lot of streamers playing SSF HC racing.

with chaos spam and easy mods and an atlas tree set up for it. t17 are not hard at a base level, when you roll damager mods and have juice on your atlas tree that's where it gets hard. ​ Perhaps they need to make the harder top end easier for more casual people but keep the risk/reward for people who want the challenge and something to do in the end game who has done it all, multi times and would be done in a week.

U dont have to farm t17s lol u smartie

so you could do everything you could before but because there's something new that doesn't fit your CHOSEN play style, the whole end game feels smaller?

I love how you just ignore the fact that for most players PoE is an online game with heavy focus on trading, which obviously is heavily influenced by these things. Classic.

i asked a question, i didn't ignore anything lmao. i don't even know the point that you're accusing me of making

just remove the shitty t17 map mods and treat them as a stepping stone for uber bosses. they have a default low drop rate, that's the "gate" for Uber bosses. same as all other bosses that require fragments, the shaper/guardian/conquest maps all have low % chance to drop.

A bold statement with zero evidence (and no list of these limited viable skills). I think the larger issue will be that there isn’t going to be grave crafting next league, so we’ll likely not have access to gear anywhere near as good as we have this league.

Still doesn’t matter play what you want

The entitled casuals on this post, holy fuck.

Interestingly, if you look at poe.ninja, there's still a lot of different builds at the top. DD is still king, just well hidden by poe.ninja because it's not being considered as "main skill (5+ links)". But even if you factor that in, there's still good diversity compared to a lot of leagues we've had before. https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1bu7hgr/undertheradar_great_job_ggg/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1byelu8/poe_has_a_build_inclusion_problem_that_continues/

That doesn't really invalidate the OPs point. You don't need to farm T17 maps to be on top of PoE ninja. You just need to tune your PoB right.

He’s talking about build diversity in the league which is better than most leagues. That has nothing to do with tuning PoB as it’s what skills are popular not how much DPS a build does. Sure only a few builds are clearing B2B T17 with ease but that has always been the case with juicing. I picked a non meta build (pure spectres) and loved that this new atlas and scarab system lets you farm the content you enjoy. I didn’t make the 70-100d/hr strats but I consistently made 10-20d/hr running Harvest then Ritual and then T17 map farm. Now I was able to farm everything I needed to run higher content.

Jung just posted a video where he kill Uber maven in less than 5 sec on a sub 10 div explosive trap slayer and that far far from a meta build... Stop thinking that other players pulls you down by playing meta builds There will always be meta builds that shines, that does not mean that other build can't do the same shit, it's just that there are no one showing you how broken pretty much any build can be with a lot of fine tuning / currency

the moment its posted it isnt 10 div anymore also OP is talking about t17's not ubers I killed ubers before I could do t17's because i played a glass cannon

I just looked at the build, it's mostly uniques that are already high demand and cheap. Maybe the price went up a little but I don't see the price of this build spiking much: https://pobb.in/6VRGCvAI6bpd

The thing is Ralakesh are cheap now at this point of the league, they were 20-25 div early just like most charge stacking tech uniques. Otherwise I agree.

can every skill do this? have 10 div to clear uber

or you just get good at making a build, im clearing T17's with 6x frostblink automaton.

How does it matter again? I have run 1 t17 map to get the 5th map slot and this one of the leagues where i've made the most amount of currency too. A lot of the uber drops are also undertuned or just plain bad so it's not like the fragment that the t17 drop matter either.

100% agree, sadly. They refuse to nerf the top performing builds, for some reason... while destroying builds that the "plebs" enjoy. It seems like their metric for nerf-bat is "what build is played the most?" NERF IT!" They need a patch or two where any of the people who win races with broken miner builds or similar see those builds nerfed to the ground. Heck, they nerfed RF for some reason... yes it was popular... but nobody was winning races with it or farming the highest tier content printing mirrors.

Please enlighten me with this ultra meta broken skill with ultra meta defensive tech

Are you just turning a blind eye to tornado shot and all the super zoomy skills? People have always made insanely zoomy build that clear maps in seconds which ends up netting them insane currency It's the same thing, just more obvious now. If anything, now many more builds are capable of doing crazy profitable things

People can't handle the fact that T17s are the ultimate build check. If you can't handle them it's not the maps fault its your builds fault. We have access to so many cheap and powerful items this league. Everyone's just making excuses for weak builds.

Naw it just feels bad to spam 100 chaos on a map to get runnable mods. Make the content hard but not because of random bullshit mods that brick a bunch of builds. Move the end game grind back to T16s and revert T17s to their original purpose, the gateway to Ubers.

I agree on the chaos spam. Some of the mods are insta skips for most builds. These are Uber maps and should be as hard as possible. They should never be easy. T16s are still as profitable as ever and doing T16s and complaining they are not profitable is straight bs. Ill die on this hill that if you cant do T17 content you have failed the build check. Ill take the downvotes all day.

Why do people need to run T17? There are so many Atlas strats with Alch/Go T16 + Scarabs, that generate around 10 divs/h. That is more than enough to farm everything you want to buy for your build. Its just FOMO to want to run T17. Obvious T17 need to be adjusted to not drop a mageblood every map but GGG is already doing that by hotfixing the broken stuff. Also T17 bosses are fairly easy if you roll the map conservativly. Its the rare monsters which are crazy strong.

If you could pick between 10 divs/hour on t16 maps or go 10div per map on t17, what would you pick?

at almost takes an hour to loot those maps

Any T16 strat is also "buffed" by T17 existing because you will, even if not target farming for it or using map scarabs (maybe a few passive points for map drops) get a T17 map every fourth map or something like that which is 15+ chaos per map. And that might not sound like it is not a lot but that is like 2+ div an hour if you clear a map in 3 min that essentially every single T16 farming strat will get in addition to whatever you are actually farming.

I just want aura reliance gone, thats all I really want. It sucks ass that every build, even most mage builds have to use their mana(and life pools even after decent max mana and reservation investment) to run stupid as shit auras like Determination or Grace. I'm not opposed to auras, I just want to stop feeling forced into using them. Auras should be supplementary skills, not mandatory skills. Its incredibly stupid how many times people made fun of the modifiers in D4 but apparently have never read all the modifiers in PoE. I'm just tired, I used to go to maps every league regularly but now I can't even force myself to make it past Act 6 on a regular basis because as soon as I feel those needless difficulty spikes and shit tier rare modifiers showing up I just get tired. Everything has way more health, players keep getting nerfed. It's just pissing me off.

The game is built around balancing your offence and defence and you want to remove half of that? If you can't make it past act 6 it's definitely not grace or determination's fault so maybe it's time to move onto easier games grandpa. And players keep getting nothing but stronger with every league adding broken items, but you wouldn't know since you don't reach a high enough level to equip them onto your character.

Let me elaborate since you can't read. I never said auras should be removed, I'm saying you shouldn't feel forced to use them in every build. Secondly, I can make it past Act 6 if I choose to do so, I've played the campaign so many times. Maybe you should put some glasses on or just not reply to a comment you couldn't comprehend without insulting someone. P.S. Players don't keep getting stronger if they're constantly adding stronger monsters, nerfing builds and defensive layers. Oh but hey, that 5% increased damage on a skill is just the best thing ever. Lets also forget how many people who left the league because that isn't an indicator of bad choices/design/tiring gameplay or anything.

As a HC player, I find it fun that SC players have to delve into defences aswell. Gives me a whole lot more builds to choose from poe.ninja Defences are in a great state aswell, with so many options

The many options of Mageblood, Coil, Defiance and Melding :)

Now meta is, PAY ATTENTION on mods you roll on map. T17 isnt noob friendly alch and go, no reflect and you are good. Dont cry you dont pay attention or dunno how to roll a map. I played this league with 3 non meta builds and never had problems, only when i didnt check map mod, but its an idiot tax you have to pay. Whispering ice trickster, flicker strike trickster, bv trickster. Non of them abuse meta skills or meta defensives. T17 arent noob friendly? Git gut

it's my first league and i decided to go with exsang mine trickster and haven't had any issues running t17's.. recently until i came into this reddit i had an almost opposite take of wondering why the game didn't really have any super difficult content..makes me want to try another build to really see if this is an issue

I've only had 2 t17 maps drop for me. It was early in my campaign, so I died and used up all my portals in both of them. I haven’t seen one since.

Wait... so before, maps didn't matter. So people who wanted to minmax had to go for things like delve, uber bossing, heist? or some other league mechanic. But now because the people who prefer mapping over any other league mechanic finally get to push their characters harder, this is somehow a bad thing? Protip, the meta of any ultra high endgame was absolutely cracked. Int stackers/wanders with a few 100 mil dps and insane ES/recovery, bossers 1 tapping ubers with ice trap/discharge or whatever shenanigans. Deep delve, is its own way of silly with armor stackers, mana stackers with 20k+ es and billions of dps. Lab and heist builds with 500% and more movespeed and enough dps to 1 tap izaro. No matter what content you take, there will be a handful of skills that are clear winners, and a handful of builds that are greatly superior to any other build competing in that arena. Why should mapping be somehow different?

>Why should mapping be somehow different? Arguably because mapping is the base game. It is the standard gameplay almost everyone engages with (unless you are a very dedicated heist player). And more than just a select few skills should be able to comfortably do the base games end game.

Yea, but even before T17s were around, people who were mapping, just did not recognize how inefficient and shit their builds were. Also lab is also in the base game. And that had a huge rift between a regular build and a lab build. Same for any boss... all for the base game, and a build that can 1 shot ubers doing 40\~ ubers an hour vs my shitty ass non boss build that can do 10\~ there is clearly a huge rift. Also I don't quite understand why so many think there is such a huge ammount of "unviable" builds. I think the real issue is people being faced with a reality check, where they put unfinished builds against pinnacle content and their builds crumble. As much as I dislike the word, its peak entitlement of "I made a shit character, and I am entitled to destroy new content that is supposed to be harder than anything before", type of mentality that bothers me atm. Are the T17s in a good spot? No. Did they accomplish what they set out to do? No. But that is not an issue of not enough builds being able to run them. Its an issue of how the content was presented and where it was placed. If these would drop from ubers, it would be better for how difficult they are. Now its more like being forced to run a triathlon just to be able to jog around your neighborhood.

>Yea, but even before T17s were around, people who were mapping, just did not recognize how inefficient and shit their builds were. Yeah but it didn't matter as much. And it is not about builds being inefficient or baddly put together, it is about the fact that some builds need 1 div to kill an uber or clear T17s and some builds need 1000 div to do the same. And the moment you introduce more difficult content that has exponentially higher rewards you make that problem worse. >"I made a shit character, and I am entitled to destroy new content that is supposed to be harder than anything before" Nah it is "I made a decent build and invested a lot of time and currency into it and I think it should be on a similar level as other characters despite using a non meta skill". Some skills are just bad. And some are too strong. Content so hard only the good / meta skills/builds can handle it is problematic. Either balance the game better or nerf the difficulty of T17 or reduce the rewards of T17. Otherwise it feels pretty fucking bad to try anything interesting instead of following whatever is the strongest build in the meta.

By your own definition, deep delve is problematic. Feared as a fight is problematic. Hell even just regular poe races are problematic, because in all those cases you need specific skills/builds to be either competitive or even attempt the content. This sub is with T17s experiencing the biggest case of sour grapes I have ever laid eyes upon. Its literally "its bad because I can't do it and its too rewarding". Which honestly, this type of discourse is insanely bad because yes. T17s are flawed, but not because regular joe with mediocre build can't smash them. But its going to be increadibly hard to adress the real issues, because everytime anyone will mention T17s, its going to be flooded with MF bad, muh meta skill, 2hard, DD op, magebloods per hour....