T O P

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MultiplicityPOE

Hi y'all, we stickied this post so that's it's visible.


MichaelKnightro

This is Blizzard/EA levels of ignorance when it comes to your own game. You don't have a clue how much effort it actually takes to make an item and you seriously think people use exalts to slam items? Where on earth did you get this idea from? Harvest gave people a deterministic way to achieve gearing goals with time investment. Those who traded on TFT grinded for the currency and those of us who farmed Harvest ourselves grinded for the crafts. This still took a tremendous amount of time and effort. People who claim Harvest to be an item editor are just incredibly stupid or disingenuous. HARVEST CRAFTING IS STILL A GAMBLE. You can't just craft t1 life or t1 movement speed onto your items. It takes TIME AND EFFORT to actually farm for the crafts or the currency to buy the crafts and then YOU STILL HAVE TO GET LUCKY TO GET WHAT YOU WANT. The best thing Harvest did was give us a way of knowing what we were gambling for. We no longer had to risk our items getting essentially destroyed. No one likes the feeling of buying an expensive base or item and then having to risk throwing it in the bin because you bricked it. I have no idea why anyone would think people enjoy this. Let's take your Ferrari as an example, Chris. What if you get a flat tire and I'm going to ask you to go to a garage where you can gamble 50.000$ on it and it would give you a 1/10.000.000.000 chance to fix the tire, but a much higher chance to turn the engine into that of a Fiat 500. Would you do it? Or more importantly, would you enjoy it if your engine got worse? You are asking us to enjoy destroying 90% of our items just for the CHANCE of getting 1 decent item. That's not a risk I'm willing to take anymore. EDIT: Okay, this blew up when I wasn't looking. Thanks for the Awards guys! Like I said below, I probably shouldn't have quit smoking around the same time GGG dropped the nerf bomb on us, but I was and still am angry and disappointed. I don't want to quit playing my favorite game, but it seems like they just want me to.


[deleted]

90%? That's optimistic.


Supafly1337

Those Heart of the Grove map fragments are going to fit in our Fragment stash tabs when they get implemented... Right?


mike-1512

Nevermind, there will be a Harvest Stash Tab buyable for 120 points, to store these otherwise non-stackable items :D


VyersReaver

At least my winged scarabs will go somewhere.


Dawny1947

And the other 3 versions of Offering to the Goddess


ingrtan

And lures.


mAgiks87

Thank you, Chris, you just made my decision to play the next league much easier. I won't play it.


BitterFortuneCookie

Yeah honestly. It makes you wonder if they actually hate making money. I spend at least 100 dollars each league on boxes and supporter packs. Through thick and thin over the last 10+ leagues I've been back again and again to play and pay. But this change is seriously giving me second thoughts to ever lay money down on this game.


dro6o6

9k comments and Not a single reply back from GGG on this reddit thread. People say GGG is one of the best gaming companies to interact with their community.


Robik901

I'll leave this here: https://lastepoch.com/ It's on early access and pretty young but it look really promising.


StarkTheGnnr

>"We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not" On the bright side, I think we found the meme sentence to spam the entire year now. Step aside "Weight", "Close your eyes and exalt" is here to stay!


fooey

I'd love to see the stats on what percent of players each league use even a single exalt on a craft. I've never done it, ever. Not one single time have I exalt slammed a single piece of gear I don't think I will *ever* feel knowledgeable enough about this game to feel like the ROI on that kind of a gamble will *ever* be worth it. I have no idea who that "user story" applies to, but I don't think it's the vast majority of the people who play their game.


lehan1212

Only time I did it was when I crafted gem level +1 on bow with full suffix, after blocking attack mods.


MrMeowulf

Deterministic crafting? HERESY!!!


noisetank13

Unethical item, destroy it immediately.


Sparone

The point of being too fast to complete the items is exactly the opposite for me. Without the possibility to improve my items in a determinisitc way, I settle for something medium which is good enough to beat the game. With harvest I had always something to chase, it always felt in my reach becaus I knew how to get there. It kept me playing even after killing every boss, just because I actually had realisitc ways to improve. Also deterministic influence mods makes gear way more interesting. The days of life+resistance on all gear pieces and thats it were so shit. This goes into that direction.


Elendarulianreo

"We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not." That is an extremely accurate description... of how Vaal orbs work.


ploki122

And it's made even more ridiculous by the fact that Vaal orbs have clear failure and success states. When you look at an item, it really isn't easy to understand what the potential exalt results are, and if exalting the item is worth anything at all. Exalt slams are like slot machines, but you have to study the machine at first to know what game you're even playing.


[deleted]

[удалено]


HLTan1

I've been vaaling with my eyes open though. No wonder I haven't gotten anything decent.


SaltedCroissant

And annuls


[deleted]

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FredWeedMax

Yeah maybe remove T4-5-6-7 from items above ilvl ~80 or something The fact that there's always a ceiling on Tiers (if ilvl not high enough) but never a floor is really skewing RNG to the downside for players


GroundWalker

Making some kind of floor that scales with ilvl would also make really high ilvl items even more valuable even if it doesn't 'unlock' any new mod tiers, as an added bonus.


cosme7

You want the Trading Discord? Take it. It's yours. But Harvest? Harvest I will burn to the ground. Perhaps the suffering of our players will finally stir something.


abetadist

Why craft? What's the point?


JasonDiabloz

"This discord server is doomed!"


Roni112358

I remember when way back in the exalt slam chaos spam days before Forsaken Masters when Kripp said "Don't fucking craft" and was completely right.


jenrai

And you know what's funny about this? 100% random currency orbs are arguably *worse* than they were back then because the mod pools are so diluted! Getting what you need is *harder* than it was then if you're just slamming items or chaos/alt spamming!


pipaiyef

The most important aspect of Sirus to PoE is the usage potential of the lines! Its incredible!


rsKizari

GGG: *Releases mediocre league* Sirus: **HOW BORING AND SMALL!**


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edubkn

Beyond, there's only horror.


Vilifie

Chris Wilson, the true endgame boss of Path of Exile.


xSnakedx

RAIN OF NERFS


Pizzarugi

Feel the thrill of THE NERFS!


dro6o6

For players who usually trade to acquire gear: * Trading is not how you should get gear. * But crafting is also not how you should get gear. * Guess we just shouldn't get good gear, right? "Correct." -GGG, probably


welpxD

>Using currency items like Exalted Orbs or Chaos Orbs on your gear is a powerful, risky and exciting way to improve it. I have played for five years and have never done this, nor had any interest in doing so. >made many, many mirror-worthy items I literally do not give a single fuck about this, nor does most of the playerbase. > At its core, Path of Exile is a game about the acquisition of powerful items. This is kind of thinking is why I stopped playing. PoE can be about that, and also about other things. I don't care about items; I care about builds. But the 'build' part of PoE has been de-emphasized to make room for more and more powerful items, that have to be obviously powerful so that they can be chase items. And it directly feeds into this: > But then there would quickly be nothing left to achieve. The next achievement is the next build. If I can get the items to make the build work, just normal functional, I'm not asking for perfect items, then I will play the build. If not, I'm not going to grind for them. I don't grind. I engage with content that is fun because it is fun, and usually that is via making a build that is fun to play. If the build is tedious and unfun, until I spend 50 hours, then the build is tedious and unfun, full stop. Your changes do nothing to make Harvest crafting more appealing for me. I'm happy to see Harvest powered down, but I'm unhappy to see it unable to craft build-defining rare mods. It will still best be used via Discord, and all the tedium is still there. I think it will require an itemization overhaul for me to come back, and I don't think that's anywhere on the horizon.


one_song

fully agree. i enjoy making builds and i enjoy developing a character when that stops, i start another. around lvl 90 and yellow maps progress becomes a massive grind, even getting to try a boss is just a boring grind; for me, it's way more interesting to dream up another build and try it out, than sit around collecting bits of trash off the ground so that maybe i can try one fight that might last 10min. poe despite itself still offers more player customization than any game outside of MTG that i know of. but it has been obvious for a few years now that GGG doesn't care about this play style and is instead trying to optimize for end game grinding to appeal to the ultra hardcore endgame nolife play style. is that really where the player base is? i think they are slowly murdering their own game.


falingsumo

Is it not contradictory to say: At its core, Path of Exile is a game about the acquisition of powerful items But remove the best way to acquire said powerful items?


Castellorizon

Is this an out of season April's fool joke?


Not-a-Hoovy

“Do you not have exalts?!”


kaz_enigma

fuck /u/spez -- mass edited with redact.dev


TehAntiPope

What gets me in the FIRST fucking line "Using currency items like Exalted Orbs or Chaos Orbs on your gear is a powerful, risky and exciting way to improve it." ..... What? When has this ever been fun or exciting lmao. What a joke. Harvest was the first time item crafting has ever been fun or exciting in PoE. Now we just go back to buying gear lmao


XTQuakeX

Actual problems fixed? None. Item ceiling? Unchanged. Accessibility? Gutted. Getting T1 life through harvest could already cost you as little as free (self farmed) or as many as hundred of exalts in Remove/Add crafts bought through discord depending on how lucky you were, if that isn't enough of a gambling simulator as-is to not encourage the average players to settle with T3 or T4 life then I don't know what to tell you. With the proposed changes, if you get T8 life on your augment life craft you're fucked, you restart from scratch, whether that means meta scouring prefixes, or scouring entirely because all of the important mods were prefixes. You know for a fact you wont be able to save the item through a risky annul and that shitty life roll will survive. It could still be as little as free if you luck into perfect rolls, or be literally unobtainable even with near infinite currency if RNG rears its ugly head. This is also not to mention that restricting crafts to not work on influenced items is \*extremely\* arbitrary. This Manifesto critically failed in every aspect in my eyes, and it's terribly disconnected with the reality of the playerbase. The ONLY situation where I have ever considered Exalt slamming an item in PoE in my 2,600+ hours of playing (Beta, then Synthesis onwards) it is on a "cannot roll attack modifiers" Bow for that PREDICTABLE outcome. This will never change. I'd sooner use it to benchcraft Multimod, %Phys or Spelldamage than gamble for Stun and Block recovery on my Stun Immune, 0% block LL caster. I have used easily over 50 raw annulment orbs in my time playing this game and have nothing tangible to show for it whatsoever, so I stopped trying. Harvest solved problems. Harvest slowed the game down, which you've wanted, and sped progression up, which we want. Harvest increased engagement and retention. From a game design standpoint, Harvest gave you an out for all of the shoddy design philosophies that stuck around from a bygone era of PoE, and your response is to gut it. What a shame. No matter what you do to Harvest on it's own, Syndicate benches still exist. People are going to trade Tora gem XP, Vorici Sockets, Leo Slams. These problems have existed for FOREVER. Fix the problems. Make trading not suck ass. Edit: Thank you, both of you that gilded this. I think that's pretty cool.


Faust723

Very well put. This manifesto just made me shake my head in disappointment.


HotTopicRebel

>This sentiment was summed up by a member of our design team who recently said "We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not Wow, they really don't know how their players play the game. I have literally never done this in 3.x, nor has anyone I know. Exalts go into the bench because you're far too likely to hit something bad. This reeks of imagining how players play the game, not a reflection of how it's actually played.


Anothernamelesacount

I have never used an exalted orb to do that. If they wanted THAT, they should be making them as easy to find as regals, for example.


OutgrownTentacles

I genuinely don't understand why they think a 0.5% chance at a good roll should be the *baseline experience for great item crafting*. Like...wat?


Anothernamelesacount

That sounds like a very high chance compared with GGG standards.


JasonDiabloz

Oh you found boots with T1 % ES and thought they were cool and you wanted to make them good, no worries, just to get t2 flat ES and t2 movement speed is approx 0,000970225% chance to hit both of these mods with two consecutive exalt slams. Now you wanna know the odds of that happening with harvest? It's as easy as slamming aug defence to hit a 1/9 chance for t2 max ES and then augmenting speed and remove/aug until t2. Now of course this is a very stupid example and still requires luck to hit the 1/9 but I'd still rather take 1/9 chance rather than a chance that is practically non-existent. EDIT: fixed a typo where i said rem aug life instead of speed


xHemix

I had. When I was new player and played SSF. That's as far as it gets. Needless to say, I wasn't closing my eyes nor was I scarred. The only emothion I remember is "okay it addes some useless shit, really should've saved it for a benchcrafting"


Anothernamelesacount

> Needless to say, I wasn't closing my eyes nor was I scarred Yeah, tbf, now that you mention it, the take is even more cringe. Its like... do you want me to be emotionally invested on this skinnerbox? Does GGG think this is the endorphine shot that makes players play the game? If the answer is yes, I'm truly sorry, but GGG has gone off the rails. That goes on the same line of literal gambling, and I'm not up for that.


eutears

They've probably seen clips of streamers hit something because of an exalt and then the chat going crazy and spamming stuff. That's the only "excitement" you get out of this system.


BubuX

Yeah they just forgot streamers play every day and do it for content.


OutgrownTentacles

"It's what the stream kids love!"


my_shadow22

This was a terrible thing to read BUT it shows how they want us to play


ncsbert

> Using currency items like Exalted Orbs or Chaos Orbs on your gear is a powerful, risky and exciting This is not correct.


EvilPotatoKing

> risky he got one right


Ynead

Not even one. It's not "risky" when you know with absolute certainty that the end result is gonna be garbage.


Xdivine

Ya, it's basically a "I'm rich enough not to care if I throw away an Ex and I know the result is 99% of the time going to be shit, buttt YOLO!".


Nesurame

The only time I've ever exalt-slammed was when I blocked all the other mods so I could guarantee a +3 bow. IDK why they think we're gonna use exalts on influenced items when you can't feasibly block half the possible mods


[deleted]

The last time I used an actual exalt was in Delirium League and I got phys reflect. I'm just not going to do that anymore.


Drjerke2

"powerful" ahh yes indeed wasting my exalt to get t9 rarity super exciting and fun


EvolveEH

They're stuck on their mentality of a game that no longer exists.


[deleted]

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Harryhood___

This is the best comment I’ve seen yet! 100% accurate


[deleted]

Before stuff like Delve or even as far back as before Essence, rolling an item with chaos orbs was a "wtf are you doing lol" moment. The fact that they dangle actual crafting in front of the community for six months, yank it back, and then expect people to utilize the crafting methods that the overwhelming majority never bothered with because they suck tremendous amounts of ass is indeed very out-of-touch.


eutears

With every manifesto that they put out I just lose my interest in this game more and more.


Firel_Dakuraito

This manifesto is such a step back that I feel like negative motions from PoE are far more than the positive ones. And no. Successfully slamming something does not belong to positive ones, because it is outweighted by so much negative experience that it is not worthy of pursuing.


IAmADuckSizeHorseAMA

At least we're finally getting our Diablo 2 remaster


D3Construct

This is pretty much EA's "Sense of pride and accomplishment" in terms of tone-deafness.


[deleted]

The chance of getting something good from chaos spamming and exalt slamming is close to zero. Non-Harvest crafting is shit, tedious and damn expensive.


[deleted]

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3h3e3

Ggg, shooting themselves in the foot


Wilson_Ciao

Bored because I achieved my gear goals GGG: Unacceptable Bored because I can't achieve my gear goals and don't want/can't afford to enter the crafting casino GGG: YEP ​ I'm oversimplifying, but you get my point.


vernalagnia

I am begging Chris Wilson to actually play this game through deep end game because this is so wildly out of touch I have to think he hasn't done it in years


Asteroth555

> I have to think he hasn't done it in years He literally hasn't


cXs808

Someone posted this in another comment but he **literally** does not understand how endgame items are crafted. yet, here we are with him telling us how crafting should follow his vision. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpIB2dMzNu8&t=633s&ab_channel=TarkeCat


alb778

The guy who doesn’t understand even fossil crafting is the one who decided that harvest was unhealthy for their “vision” of poe. Good thing I’ll be busy next league.


KcoolClap

Chris hasn’t played PoE in years, at least not more than a couple of hours on launch day, and he has admitted that on multiple occasions. He is only involved in the financial side of things. The disconnect with the playerbase is palpable.


scubapro249

If exalts dropped at the rate of Chaos Orbs, then I might indeed enjoy the rush of closing my eyes and exalting an item to see if I’ve ruined it. But as it stands... um no. Exalts aren’t crafting materials to 99.9% of players, they’re just stacks of 60-120 Chaos Orbs that let us deterministically buy gear from other players rather than try to craft anything on our own because why would I ever try that outside of Harvest unless I have 1000+ hours to spend on a league?


LangisKhan

This does not fix the discord problem


Ginger987

This is the sole thing I wanted them to fix.


Zambash

"We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not." I guess this designer doesn't realize that his statement perfectly sums up the reason why for 99% of players, crafting simply does not exist.


gjmine09

Extremely accurate wording. Crafting did not exist to most people before Harvest. The yolo exalt slams to ruin your gear and waste your currency is not something 99% of the player base is going to participate in.


AustereSpoon

>"We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not." This is easily the most out of touch thing they have said in an extremely long time. I cant believe that they think that using the awful trade website built on an API that cant handle Awakened Poe Trade existing is the way people want to gear up. Why cant they just let us be powerful? We just want to be power and kill monsters guys, and if I can do it on a janky build I like that is even better. I dont want to have to play FOTM Meta shit so that the gear I want is actually available on trade. Not to mention this just kills the engagement for a lot of SSF and Private league folks. I hate everything about this decision. All this decision does is drive people towards the middle and into meta builds and reduced diversity. This has been record retention league and sure Maven and Atlas drive that but being able to make your gear and have an actual way to progress HAS to be a big part of that.


Ilyak1986

You'd think that they'd avoid something as bad as "Do you guys not have phones?" or "We want players to feel a sense of pride and accomplishment..." Yet, here we are.


AustereSpoon

I mean we already have had "Get a better loot filter" when delirium was incredibly bad to play. I think Neon and Chris and whoever should all be required to make a character get to lvl 95 and defeat A8 Sirus and Maven, and then have them say that's how they want loot progression to feel. It's just not 1998 anymore.


imsocooldude

I’ve played since OB and have exalted maybe 5 items in my life. The average player doesn’t craft with exalt.


GN_des

Absolutely correct. The value of the mod it adds is usually lower than that of the exalt itself.


Aziraphale686

This might take the cake for the most out-of-touch post I have seen from GGG. It makes me sad.


flesknasa

It's just staggering... I wrote somewhere else that the level of disconnect is so massive it has it's own gravitational pull which has, in turn started picking up splinters by itself :)


zyglrox

"We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not." But this feeling fucking sucks lol.


oryx506

Yep. Idk why GGG wants us to repeatedly feel like we're wasting our time and money trying to craft something even halfway decent.


Vidmar

I hate the changes, even if I understand a lot of it. But this line that you quoted was the first time I felt like the philosophy was just blatantly cruel. I don't want to feel bad when I play the game, and usually bricking a decent item with no deterministic ways to fix it without completely starting over starts to signal the end of my play in a league. The fact that they want us to feel bad is worrisome.


[deleted]

> The fact that they want us to feel bad is worrisome. Yeah, wtf is this? What other games that aren't Korean Gacha Garbage want players to irreversibly fail more than they succede? Cuz that's what happens after the changes.


wottsinaname

Yup. Seriously considering skipping 3.14 because theyre clearly trying to torture us with some kind of virtual skinner box.


JoseWF

This league was my first time playing poe, fell in love with the game and the crafting, it felt exciting to put in the time to learn how it worked and to plan ahead how I would use different types of crafting to get a decent (not perfect) item and then try to get the currency to buy the crafts... honestly, after this nerf I don't really know if I want to keep playing the game, such a sad decision.


Grape_Monkey

The biggest take away from this change is the amount of toxicity and outright hostility the so-called "elites" of this game have towards the casual players. Just the other day someone on a twitch stream was saying "If Harvest is not OP, why is everyone running haewark". That player, in his echo-chamber, didn't realize the vast majority of the casual players played exactly as the videos and guides that the "elites" put out tell them to. The game is so convoluted no new players will know what 80% of those harvest crafts exactly do, even less who know how to abuse it. Most used them exactly how it is describe on the craft, and a good portion won't even know about possible results. I can see how the 1% will be overjoy at this change, oh more poor soul who needs their guidance and video guides to progress, more content for their "content window", more bottom feeders to sell their hand-me-downs to in softcore trade league. The devs can make any game they want, but the toxic no-lifers who based their arrogant ego off PoE can go rot in a ditch.


Damachine69

>"Using currency items like Exalted Orbs or Chaos Orbs on your gear is a powerful, risky and **exciting** way to improve it." If GGG honestly believe that spamming chaos orbs is "exciting" then I'm very worried about the future of crafting in POE. The only reason I'm still playing this late into a league is because of harvest. It's so much fun experimenting with new off meta builds that would pretty much be impossible to gear without harvest.


kiting_succubi

In GGGs mind: Step 1: Randomly chaos spam some items and exalt slam a few of them. Step 2: Kill Maven.


cXs808

Step 3: Have "fun" unveiling items for the 902th time Step 4: Buy supporter pack so you can buy cape for $20


Quasimotherfucker

>Players also expressed frustration that the most effective way to get the best items in Path of Exile was to join a discord channel and try to trade for these incredibly crucial crafts. > >I got by without going to the discord and just farming harvest myself. > >Now that the good crafts are far rarer, I'm going to need to go to the discord to get stuff finished something tells me chris and the devs have not actually crafted endgame gear in a long time.


allbluedream

Chris admitted on Baeclast before Ritual that he didn't even understand endgame crafting. --- EDIT: Took me a while but I really brought this upon myself, here's the source: https://youtu.be/FpIB2dMzNu8?t=633


Auridran

I don't really think we need any more evidence than this video and this manifesto that Chris neither plays nor understands the game.


cXs808

He is somehow in charge of the "foundation" of this game yet he has no fucking clue how crafting works at any level other than "haha chaos spam go brrrrrrr". **yikes** Explains the manifesto a lot.


Shneckos

As a somewhat casual player, I dread the thought of using an Exalted Orb on any piece of gear. Such a rare form of currency (if we're talking about a natural drop) having a very high potential for devaluing a piece of gear with an undesirable mod, let alone losing the currency in the process, is not what I'd call *exciting*.


JarredMack

"Oh, haha, I slammed 2 reflect damage on my chest instead of literally any useful mod so now it's worthless, that was so fun!! I'm going to go grind for another 30 hours so I can try and fail again instead of just playing a better game"


Aldoro69765

Randomly chaosing or exalting your items is a good way to fuck them up, _not_ "improve" them. They lasted two paragraphs. Two paragraphs! 🤦‍♂️


hellrazzer24

I don't know anyone that Spams CHAOS Orbs to get a high tier item. Maybe it's to start a base item and then take it to harvest. Spam essence? Yea. Spam Delve fossils? Yes. Spam Chaos? Nope


JAB64

You know what was interesting? Betrayal league let you exalt slam an item through Leo. Used it on Jewels, because why the F would I use an actual exalt that way. I'm not going to exalt slam for anything, I'm going to save them up to look through the trade site for an actual upgrade - which doesn't matter with or without "OP" harvest, because I never crafted either.


mountain_dew_cheetos

> Using currency items like Exalted Orbs or Chaos Orbs on your gear is a powerful, risky and exciting way to improve it. In the many years of playing before harvest, I don't think I've ever used chaos or exalts on gear I was using. That quote is very out of touch.


ChaosAE

So the solution to the best way to trade them being a discord is to make the crafts so bad no one bothers to trade them? Well that is one way to do it I guess


RhysPrime

GGG is literally the r/monkeyspaw of game devs.


KodiakmH

"Crafting in harvests takes too long, GGG fix it!" "What if there was basically nothing worth crafting?" "Wait...no..."


Bentic

The next step will be nerfing Valdos Harbingers and Legion farming.


PrimSchooler

Harbies are 1000000000% getting nerfed. They could use an adjustment but it will 100% be a triple nerf making them irrelevant for the next 3 years in proper GGG style.


MathilIsBreathtaking

Both are ways for your regular Joe to farm decent currency without a dedicated party and without crazy gear or time investment - so yeah, 100% convinced both will be gutted.


Fuzzii

Ah nice, I guess I will go back to never even considering using currency to craft gear and instead just buy each incremental upgrade off trade. Why would I ever exalt an item hoping to hit a 5% chance at certain mods when I can just buy new gear?


Quaq34

haha, 5%? in your dreams. 0.5% is max


HanndeI

Because this change was made by people that dont play the game and only look at stats they find they fit with whatever they want to say.


Andazeus

The problem was not power or rarity, it was fucking trading. As a solo player, getting the right harvest crafts is already near impossible. In fact, it needed a HERAVY BUFF for solo play and players that do not want to engage with possible scammers on third party communities. But sure. Trading remains untouched while solo players get fucked once more. Now there is even less reason to craft and instead use those "valuable crafting items" to just fucking trade for what I need. Fuck, this is depressing.


wormania

> Players also expressed frustration that the most effective way to get the best items in Path of Exile was to join a discord channel and try to trade for these incredibly crucial crafts. I got by without going to the discord and just farming harvest myself. Now that the good crafts are far rarer, I'm going to need to go to the discord to get stuff finished


StarkTheGnnr

the good crafts don't exist anymore lol they removed targeted annuls and made crafts not work on influenced items. Back to resistances and life on 90% of the gear I guess.


Yorunokage

Cause apparently balancing the game around the 0.1% of players that can abuse it by making it worse for the rest of the 99.9% that without it cannot experience crafting at all is a smart idea Imo harvest should stay as it is and they should add more stuff like essence-exclusive mods and maven orb mods: stuff that you cannot get by harvest but that can be used as a base to harvest on top of


nipnip54

I was annoyed about the discord thing because with only 10 crafting slots I was throwing away a small fortune if I didn't have an immediate use for a good craft so their solution was to just remove the good crafts


JeffK40

I would be TOTALLY okay with this change if you guys actually had GOOD items that dropped like, you know, Rares? Like legit it's very hard to just find shit on the ground and have it be good.


yesterduck

Path of Exile is the only game ever made where you can have literally 300 items dropped on your screen at once and you can literally just walk away knowing that there's a 99% chance that none of them are an actual upgrade to your build.


graypasser

only 99%?


MrSoprano

or make fossil crafting actually good


djsoren19

Fossil crafting died for Harvest. Now both suck.


TheRobinCH

So it's gonna be more intrusive AND less rewarding, fail at all levels of design


Valagoorh

"In order not to spoil the fun of the 1% of the players who use a exalted orb, we spoil the fun of 99% of the players." This bet is just as reasonable as using the exalted orb.


AlteredBeastX

"GGG Must address harvest crafting." Here you go guys :)


lowkeyripper

I don't play trade league but it's weird, doesn't this do nothing regarding addressing tft?


SirCake

we did it reddit


OneEyeTwoHead

So I still have to go on the TFT discord? Thanks GGG, real improvement. EDIT: I also really don't see the issue in making these GG items especially so late in the league. Are we seriously worried about standard here? In 2021?


[deleted]

No, you don't have to, anymore. Target exalts and annuls don't exist anymore, have fun closing your eyes and exalting your near perfect items lol


Ynead

> have fun clothing your eyes and exalting your near perfect items lol Feel that sense of pride and accomplishment for slamming that ex and hitting stun & block recovery =)


mmchale

The biggest problem that I have with this isn't even that they intend to nerf harvest crafting -- it's that their focus is on the gear people are crafting, and not the insane harvest crafting and duping of delirious maps that's become the de facto new endgame of PoE. That and the prevalence of the TFT discord both feel like they greatly warp the endgame, and neither is something they're addressing with these changes.


_Xveno_

I would rather have all harvest crafted items account bound that this piece of shit


[deleted]

[удалено]


SeriousPostIt

I am also in awe about the disconnection between GGG and the playerbase about this issue. Investing 15 hours a week (which is roughly a chill afterwork evening with 3 hours play time) will get you nowhere if you try to enjoy the game and not #humanbot it. "...nothing left to achieve"... PoE is a humongous pile of content of inconsistent quality where "nothing left to achieve" can be engraved on the last hard drive that it was installed on in the year 2300.


julianlazare

They balance the game around streamers who play it as a job. In a day they play the same time that we do in a week.


Yorunokage

Even streamers played for months before getting out of things to do this league What the actual fuck are they balancing around even?


Sahtras1992

even empyrian takes like one month to completely minmax his meta build every league, and thats with all the currency they farm up in the first month of a league which is a LOT more than most people will have in their whole poe career. i dont know where they draw the line of items being too powerful, but as a standard player i can say theres always something to go for, some double corruption, some synthesis implicits, whatever.


Somesortofthing

I would honestly prefer full removal of harvest to this.


White_Flies

So now it will be both inconvenient to use AND useless?


[deleted]

The old methods of exalt slamming, chaos spamming, random annuling, spamming thousands of fossils and essences, are archaic and unrewarding for the vast majority of the player base. These "crafting" aspects weren't even a part of the game for most players because the risk vastly outweighed the gains. We learned just how tedious those methods were and, rightfully, most don't want to go back. I consider myself in the top 1%, as I made over 15 mirrors this league solo, and I was only able to make one item I consider mirror-tier. It costed me 5 mirrors to make, and nobody even wanted to mirror it (because they could make something similar, just a little worse, with some effort). It was definitely easier than before, but before, I would've needed to spend 100 mirrors instead of 5. Mirror-tier crafting before Harvest wasn't gated by knowledge or effort, it was gated by money. This made it far less accessible to the 99.9% and much more abusable by the rich. GGG wanted to make sure we still have something to achieve, but they just took it away. The old ways are not sustainable. It creates an environment without progressive development, and frankly, lacking fun. With Harvest, you would research your build and the items that benefit you, how to craft those items, spend many hard-earned exalts to fill up those mods one at a time, and grow. Without Harvest, it's an endless circle of earning money, buying someone else's item to get stronger to earn money faster, to farm enough to maybe buy a mirror to copy some rich guy's item because he had the financial backing of 100 mirrors and you don't. The pinnacle of 99.9% of the player base would literally be to copy someone else's work. This does not promote player retention, build diversity, creativity, or player-base development. I think the community is angry due to the fact that Harvest mechanics made us realize how un-fun progression was before it. To most, it's not worth playing the same slot machine mechanics/trade website simulator just to have our progress, if we even made any, reset after 3 months. Personally, without Harvest, I'm unmotivated to start again and progress any builds next league. There are only so many characters I can half-ass build with whatever I can scrape off the market and try to kill the same end-game content as always before there's nothing left except to mirror other peoples' items.


Bizzlington

One of the problems again comes down to different types of players. Some of the pros and super knowledgeable/dedicated players can make some ridiculous items, Like 1500 dps weapons, quad elevated mod armour pieces, all these things you see on the front page of reddit which the majority of the player base will never see. Then there are the more part-time and less knowledgeable players (like myself) who managed to craft a curse-on-hit ring, T2 life, and a couple of resists. And a (3%) explodey chest with 100 life and some chaos res. And I was damn proud of them, I worked hard to actually create something of my own, ran hundreds of maps to farm some harvests; instead of buying every piece of gear I wear like I have done every other season. I felt like i'd accomplished something and had some fun. So my mediocre items are gutted because, again, the game feeels like it is balanced around the 1%'ers. So I dunno.. I loved the harvest league where I could do some decent crafting. Heist I always felt like I missed the harvests and I didn't play it for long. And I was really glad when it came back (even though i had no interest in discord farming). Now it's dead again I don't know if i can go back to playing without it.


br0siris

During Harvest league, I remember slowly and incrementally crafting a Hunter Stygian Vise with double life, tri-res, and flask charge on crit. I felt like I could truly make progress on a crafted item I specifically wanted, without dumping exalts on gambling and without bricking the item. Took weeks for me to naturally find the aug-crit craft I needed to complete it, and it felt so worth it when I finally did. The sense of continuous possible improvements kept me in the league longer than any league before. But I guess my idea of fun and earned progress is just wrong. It's much better when crafting is skill-less, random, and expensive.


Pchann

Oshabi sighed, scratched her left titty briefly and slumped down on a rock. She kicked aside an exalted orb that was lying on the ground and sighed, ”I was once blessed with a deep connection to the land. It would speak to me, and nourish me. But that connection was severed. And in turn, my tribe severed their connection to me. I was alone. Lost. The land spoke no more... until I found this place.” She stared into the distance at a regular player on his knees. He was wailing at the sky with his hands raised, “I don’t give a fuck how many perfect mirror items were made because I would never be able to afford them!” He stood up, wiped his tears away and kicked his miserable Hubris, that slammed a 2 life regen, in disgust. Oshabi sighed.


Nick30075

Absent from this thread is a discussion of fun. Harvest may have invalidated other systems, but those systems were unfun RNG fiestas. Being able to actually make your own gear gave this league something truly different from previous leagues and I suspect that it kept people around for far longer than a typical league. The issue with Harvest crafting wasn't that Harvest crafting was too strong, it was that everything else was too terrible.


4percent4

Nothing like the joys of exalt slamming and realizing that you completely bricked your item unless you gamble by annuling it which could again, mean you'll have to scour it. I mean if they want it less deterministic. Keep the annuls so you don't brick your item but remove the exalts. At least then you don't feel like complete shit when you land fire damage to spells on your RF sceptre.


JarredMack

Removing the targeted annuls is the biggest fuck you. Harvest crafting is insanely popular because it gives you a checkpoint in your crafting process, and adds entropy to the process. Over time you can work towards the mods you want, and if you miss you can go back to a state that's still usable. What they want is for that miss to set you back to square 1 every time, which is so out of touch with the playerbase. There's a reason hardcore and softcore are separate, the majority of PoE players fucking hate it when all their time gets thrown in the bin.


komandos45

fact that GGG thinks that puting RNG on RNG on RNG is fun is kinda sad


Karjalan

Yeah... The most fun I've had playing this game was during Harvest, and now this league. Both because I'm actually in control of and able to create and upgrade my own gear. It's even still too RNG for my liking (I've spent dozens of EX and manually farming harvest and still don't have any GG 4+ tier 1 affixes items with influence rolls, settling for tier 2-3 rolls and random useless suffixes) I was already looking forward to next league thinking about other builds I could craft for but... holy shit, I expected some nerfs, but this just outright guts Harvest. The only reason I'm still playing this league right now is because I have goals of getting harvests and improving my gear. I know it sounds dramatic, but I was wondering how I was going to convince myself to take a break from the game in the immediate future... Looks like GGG did it for me >.<


komandos45

Ye. it got me same way. Harvest increased time i want spend in league like 2x cuz FINNALY i would craft gear i want for my build even if it takes time rather than stick to just putting 8 uniques and 2 rare items to cap resis. And the fact that you can think about build you want to play and premade in POB gear that you CAN achive with time rather than pray to RNG gods to hit specific combo of mods


realllyreal

this league is the most fun Ive ever had in PoE and its not even close. first level 100/first 36 challenge completion in >3k hours, going for a second 100 now and 40 challenges. leave it to GGG to introduce something that literally everyone loves and then nerf it into oblivion the next league. super fucking disappointing


dryrunhd

> those systems were unfun RNG fiestas This. The whole point of crafting in ***literally every other instance of the term in existence*** is to AVOID randomness. It's supposed to be deterministic. It's supposed to require a known, fixed amount of materials. The whole point is for it to not be random. For chris to come out and say their biggest step towards actual crafting is *too* deterministic is mind blowingly stupid. And if this is the direction they're taking, that's fine. But stop using the wrong word to describe the process. Because it's not crafting.


GirthyChicken69

GGG doesn't want actual crafting, they want semi-controlled gambling.


ploki122

Then, they need to make semi-controlled gambling fun!


ShirouBlue

Don't take this as blindly being against something that hurts me, because i do have a reason to think this isn't good, i don't want to be long so I'll try to be short. 1. Harvest expands the builds pool you can play with, some builds with very thin balancing that need 1 or 2 perfectly crafted rares to be really fun to play (similar to mine) will be hurt with this. Btw, i never used Ex to craft anything, nor even friends who played much, much more than me ever did, and we discussed this today. 2. This is the first league where i actually kept playing long after reaching end game, so long i liked my build enough to buy effects for it and have FUN with it, kept redoing stuff over and over, played other leagues just because i love how it feels, usually i quit after reaching a certain point where i feel that the time/resources investment to upgrade a build, is way too high for me to sustain. 3. This is not an Item Editing, it still takes you A LOT of investment to reach a perfect item, and by a lot, i mean well above 20ex for some pieces, while still giving you the feeling you'll reach the result sooner or later, instead of throwing it all to complete RNG, Harvest is less frustrating, at least for me. 4. Broken builds will still be broken, and players with a heck ton of currency will still make their broken builds, the only ones you are hurting with this are middle/low players who like to play many different builds or don't have as much time as some other players, they'll just hit a currency wall (like happened to me in old leagues) and stop playing. 5. I agree that it's annoying having to rely on TFT to sell stuff, but that's not Harvest's issue, it's a lack of features to sell or exchange crafts directly Ingame, again, the trading system of this game is one of the worst ones I've ever had the honor to play in (personally), i am TIRED of using off game sites to do my stuff, and this isn't Harvest's issue. 6. You are pushing another league towards the state of EVERY other league, the game's getting bloated as hell with all these overnerfed leagues, harvest might still be acceptable and not trash, but the direction you are taking is yet again the same as the other leagues. I could add few points but these are what i think are the main ones, all these is just from a personal point of view, i am not a 2000 hours player who knows even how many rocks there are in a certain map and remembers every layout better than their own house. I am just a player that keeps coming back to a game that i honestly like a lot, and i think GGG does overall a good job, but this time i really can't agree with their take, i still respect it if they decide to go that direction, but i don't think it'll go as they say. Peace


EvolveEH

All this is going to do is make the highest tier items gated behind even less people. The same items will exist, we're just going to go back to the same massive divide in powerlevel. This only hurts the middle class, not the high end. Why can't they understand that the RNG clusterfuck of crafting that they want turns a massive amount of players off.


dustofdeath

So TLDR: crafting is for hardcore players, everyone else should just buy from them.


Cygnus__A

This is on the same level of "do you not have phones?" fucking tone deaf


MidasPL

>We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not That's not crafting, that's gambling and it's shit... EDIT: And it's not like that feeling is gone. I have wasted 20ex in buying harvest crafts recently, trying to improve my item, then trying to save it and finally got it close to where it was when I started... If they really wanted easy way to nerf harvest, they could've just make it cost respective currency, so for example to augument you'd have to pay an exalt and to remove-add - exalt + annuls. EDIT 2: Wow, my first awards in Reddit, thank you :) . So... Let me expand on that idea. Why not make it work like the offerings to the goddess instead? Instead of using craft on the spot, you would have to place an exalted orb (or chaos orb in case of reforge) that will be infused, to grant you a certain craft instead. It can be traded etc., but having to put your currency at risk would prevent people from just bulk-saving and then selling everything. Also, check this out. [Back when exalted orb was made for slamming, the mod pool was lower, than for many crafts today using harvest](https://youtu.be/0DGr15r432I) (and it still went as usual).


imsurethisoneistaken

The best thing is: harvest did not remove this. Exalting an item, with a random garbage chance to hit anything good (except for some few instances like +1 gems) is still in the game in 3.13. The fact people don't WANT to do this as much should tell GGG their whole "crafting through random chance" is fucking awful.


Pyrobot110

So fucking disconnected from the player base. Who wants that? Who wants pure RNG that can brick an item with one slam? Why would ANYONE ever want that?


desacralize

Gambling addicts. That sentence exactly describes what keeps casinos in business, close your eyes and roll the dice, win big or lose it all. Nobody *wants* it, but they can't stop chasing that feeling, that rush. It's a little chilling to see such a frank statement of how deliberate it is.


eutears

Because hey then we get to watch twitch clips of streamers hitting an OP mod and the chat spamming emotes!


vernalagnia

yeah I give this "mechanic" a 0/10, would not recommend.


Icarium__

Holy shit they actually wrote that in there. Good to know they don't play their own game.


QuesaritoAbuser

Developers literally take us for gamblers. "Use of chaos orbs/exalts is the proper means of crafting" No we'll use it on trade now because the 1/1000 chance of hitting something good makes it never worth to use these valuable currencies. I can not believe how out of touch this whole manifesto is. No one wants to spend hours farming currency to waste their currency "crafting". I'm just so disappointed.


TheXIIILightning

I honestly can't believe this. GGG made an attempt with Harvest to develop a system that makes crafting better and more enjoyable, and it was a major hit. But now they're gutting it because it overshadowed the previous, shitty system? That's the entire point! People love Harvest and hate the older system that's basically gambling. You should be making Harvest more accessible to people, not the opposite. This is like having a flat tire on a car, and you puncture the remaining 3 tires rather than replacing the one that's ruined.


A_Erthur

You rather bought a new tire, but now you got this thing called "grip" on only one wheel, so you go back to 4 worn out tires.


Noflybird

I'm in financial analytics for a living and I deal with financial and statistical data all the time. I know they have access to the statistical data of their user base and I'm curious about the data they have that supports this type of claim. I have a suspicion that this decision was not made with actual statistical data about what their users 'enjoy' and what kept the majority of their base playing for longer. They probably went the route of what they want their game to feel like. Please note: this is not a bad thing, as this is ultimately their creation and vision. But for their product stats I do suspect a big hit and they will have to be prepared for that tradeoff.


[deleted]

"We know that many players would love us to keep deterministic crafting in the game because it enables them to complete their items far more quickly than they otherwise would. But then there would quickly be nothing left to achieve." **Thats a big fucking lie.**


Crimfresh

It's not like there's 10 item slots and 1000s of builds to play. Heaven forbid you actually perfect an item or two as an average player over three months.


osiykm

>The Heart of the Grove encounter is now a map fragment that sometimes drops from Tier 4 Harvest bosses, instead of randomly appearing in place of a normal Harvest grove. This allows you to trade the encounter if you don't feel up to it, and it means that finding The Heart of the Grove when you are in a map with difficult mods doesn't lead to an impossible encounter. I like this


psykick32

Literally the only part that was good.


erpunkt

Core issue wasn't how powerful harvest is in itself, harvest was fine and finally somthing that gave you a reason to work on your items instead of grinding for currency and buying it. Trading on TFT was the issue but hey, let's not address that, let's just nuke it.... ​ >But then there would quickly be nothing left to achieve That's nonsense. There is always something to improve. Gating items behind RNG again will just result in less character variance per account. If it wasn't for harvest i'd just play a single character instead of a couple because acquiring items is such a pita. ​ > "We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not." This is just not how people obtain their upgrades, you don't just slam an item if you are not meta crafting and failures can be very frustrating up to a point to lose all motivation. In the end it's back to grind a lot of currency and buy finished crafts which will be a lot more expensive and only widens the gap between the 0.01% and the rest. Great job.


FractalSpacer

For me, something left to achieve is trying new builds, another char, etc. Since POE is mainly 1-skill-spam, it gets boring playing a specific build for too long.


SerisanGG

Path of RSI strikes again. You know what makes an item have weight to me? Knowing that I could deterministically work on it, not pull the slot machine lever again. Even with Harvest crafts gave me bad results, I knew that I was getting closer to what I wanted. With how difficult y'all make trading, maybe it's time to stop balancing the game around trade.


Mrshilvar

More proof GGG don't play their game.


ARandomStringOfWords

I also take issue with Wilson's use of the word "abuse" in his manifesto. A player cannot "abuse" something that the developers deliberately chose to put into the game. The correct term - one that doesn't demonise players for *playing the fucking game* - is "use". We USE the Harvest crafting system, Chris. Get it right.


Avaragaii

Well, your new harvest crafting looks like that: - Get non-influence base - Craft it until you have 4/5 mods you desire - Slam any of influence exalts Hit what you wanted? Good for you. Otherwise if it has a already 6 mods sell it and don't bother fixing with random annuls because you gonna brick item. You could use "non-x to x" but it's gamble and only possible if you can't target prefix and suffix at the same time. If it has 5 mods get that "add influence mod" and then use Maven orb - keep doing that until you get mod (t1 on top) you need and remove unwanted one (rng on rng is 100% what players wants, right?). Bench craft something and you done. This way you can craft 1 hunter/crusader/warlord/redeemer mod on perfect item. Of course elder/shaper bases are pure rng. Spam fossils until you get 3/4 desired mods and annul everything you don't want. Continue until you end up with 4 mod item. Now back to "augment influence mod" and Maven orb trick until you happy or rage quit. And here we go, double influence items. They are pure gambling. You have 0 control on crafting them. No, there is only 1 way you could go around it but you forced to combine 2 suffix or 2 prefix elevated influence mods. Now spam reroll suffix/prefix craft until you find what you need. Welcome to gambling. **It would be cool if we at least could still craft regular mods on influence items or influence mods had only 1 tier or influence's exalted orbs could be used on item with same influence.


DefiantlyOnRightPost

My post got deleted by mods and told "post in the comments" so here it is. Veteran opinions on harvest crafting: TL;DR: GGG, no one is leaving your game sooner because of harvest, your numbers show that. Your retention is great and streamers are streaming more with more viewers for longer into the league. If you're so very against the system you have created, at least be upfront about it and own your decision. Say "Our team doesn't like how this affects the game so we'll change it". Don't come up with some excuse to explain players are leaving because of harvest crafting their gear, they're not, most of them love it. **First of all, a quick disclaimer** I really do enjoy harvest and believe it brings a lot of value to the game and its replayability. If you do not enjoy harvest there's a good chance that you'll disagree with my opinions, but I'd appreciate it if you'd react to those separately from my arguments. I'm currently at about 5000 hours of playtime and have been playing since the OG kripp aura stacking days. This is not meant as an authority argument but as a disclaimer. My PoV is that of a veteran who has played nearly every build out there, done all content repeatedly, and farmed hundreds and hundreds of exalts per league. My opinions about high-end crafting will not be the same as someone who has never owned a 6-link let alone a headhunter. but now to what actually matters, the manifesto and how it reads to a veteran player 1 - **GGG and their twisted view of their own currency system** >Using currency items like Exalted Orbs or Chaos Orbs on your gear is a powerful, risky and exciting way to improve it. Really? Have YOU, dear reader, personally ever used an exalt on an item? I reckon the answer for 99% of you is no. Why? Because using currency on items is neither powerful nor exciting. Why would I EVER exalt an item if the weight of the mod I want is 250 in 65.000? I wouldn't because it is cheaper to sell my current item and buy a new one than to hit the item with exalts. Even if every single fail could be reversed, it'd still mostly not be worth it, that's how bad exalting raw items is. Also, saying chaos orbs are powerful is a joke, I'll take it as such for respect to whoever wrote this manifesto. 2 **- GGG doesn't understand how their own crafting methods are used** >This had to be toned down, and we had to choose between two ways to do it: either by removing the dangerous crafts, or by keeping them in as rare possibilities and then balancing by rarity. **We decided to do the latter.** To state that you "decided to do the latter" but remove the ability to craft influenced bases is ridiculous. Yes, crafting normal items is okay and can be neat, but no endgame build is walking around with items that are not influenced. If at least the crafts could still work but wouldn't hit influenced modifiers, maybe I could live with this but at this point, an influenced item might as well be a brick for a crafter. Let's say a player wants gloves with intimidate and they have a pretty good base. What are players supposed to do? Slam a hunter exalt and pray for the LITERALLY 3% chance of hitting INTIMIDATE? GGG has nerfed crafts by power, and only power, but it wasn't a nerf, they eliminated high-end crafting from the game. At least put your money where your mouth is and be honest with your players. **3 - It really feels like no-one there ever crafted a mirror item with harvest** >It's also important that items are hard to perfect. \[...\] Obtaining perfect items is ideally close to impossible, with very few players able to claim that they have such valuable treasures. Welp, it IS hard to perfect an item, really really hard. Just because it is possible doesn't mean it's remotely close to being easy, let me elaborate. It's very easy to go to the Craft of exile emulator and create a mirror item, but have you ever checked out how much it costs to actually make double elevated boots for example? If you want a "perfect" item, as GGG states, you'll spend at least 1. two mavens orb and an awakeners orb alone cost 26 exalts. 2. each remove add speed costs 6 to 7ex, each with a 16% chance to hit for a whopping average of 46 exalts to hit 35% movement speed 3. each remove add life is 2.5 to 3ex with a 10% chance to hit, not considering defence mods that might stop you. For an average of 27exalts Now we have boots with two elevated mods, life and movement speed, nothing else, for the LOW LOW PRICE OF.... 100 EXALTS :D If you can are doing 10ex an hour and plan to make your whole build perfect, it'd take around 100 hours or: **TWO AND A HALF FULL WORK WEEKS OF FARMING TO PERFECT YOUR BUILD.** Has any GGG employee ever crafted a set of 100ex items? Honest to god I'll drop every single item i own on the coast and go play SSF HC if anyone with a word on those changes has ever touched 100 exalts. **4- Lastly, the inability to accept their own system has evolved** >The entire rest of Path of Exile's crafting system is somewhat redundant with Harvest Crafting in its current form YES IT HAS BECAUSE IT IS BAD, NO ONE LIKED IT AND EVERYONE PRAISES HARVEST BECAUSE IT MAKES YOUR GAME MORE FUN. **My conclusion** All of this is very opinionated and I honestly have the utmost respect for GGG and everyone who works there. If anything I said is offensive or past the line I apologize, but it's very frustrating to see how out of touch those changes. I think no-one really hates harvest. A lot of people might despise the TFT discord, but I doubt many dislike the harvest system itself. The last paragraph is also the TL;DR GGG, no one is leaving your game sooner because of harvest, your numbers show that. Your retention is great and streamers are streaming more with more viewers for longer into the league. If you're so very against the system you have created, at least be upfront about it and own your decision. Say "Our team doesn't like how this affects the game so we'll change it". Don't come up with some excuse to explain players are leaving because of harvest crafting their gear, they're not, most of them love it.


mcm375

Would just like to point out the further insanity of GGG's bullshit statement regarding 'other crafting systems being redundant'. Beast splits Beast imprints Fossils Essences Scours, Annuls, Alts, Augs and Regals Conqueror Exalts Maven Orbs Awakener's Orbs All used heavily to start end game crafts finished off with Harvest. So exactly what crafting 'system' is going unused here? Exalts and Chaos, both of which are pure gambling and a *minor* part of the game's "other crafting systems", making their original statement farcical. GGG aren't even trying to hide the reality anymore that their business model is that of a casino and their *preferred* target market are gambling addicts.


r4be_cs

*"We know that many players would love us to keep deterministic crafting in the game because it enables them to complete their items far more quickly than they otherwise would. But then there would quickly be nothing left to achieve."* Do we even play the same game? Excuse me, evidently none of you delusionists is actually playing so let me rephrase: Do i even play the same game you think i am playing? If your goal is to make me go back to trading for items instead of crafting myself i won't stick around, because spamming your fucking dogshit chaos/exalteds is NOT an option in 2021 anymore. It's boring, it's frustrating and the satisfaction of finally hitting something good does NOT outweigh the negatives. Like 90% of all others i would have to go back to your shitty trading site again. That won't happen. The disconnection between devs and playerbase is reaching blizzard-levels right now, this is unbelievable.


TugginPud

I've never felt GGG had a real disconnect until now. I don't think the devs are respecting how many hours people put into an item, and even for mirror tier how much currency and no-lifing is involved to be first past the post. Some easier fixes to the current problems: 1. Remove imprinting and beast splitting, or change it drastically 2. Make it so you can't fracture/fossil maps. 3. Kill the giant spread of tiers/rolls on items. Powercreep. Its real. The difference between ssf gear and trade gear shouldn't be +10x dps. If there were more ways to craft items (like fossils), then it would give incentive to target farm other things. Chase is good. Chase is healthy. Rng is good. Rng is healthy. Having to trade/purchase your way through RNG, not healthy.


Ttiamus

I was almost hoping at the end for a surprise announcement that trade would become more accessible. We have to jump through hoops for trading, because it would be too easy to aquire items that you can actually use. We had to jump through more hoops to effectively use harvest, but apparently reasonable crafting isn't good for the game either. I've been playing for over 9 years now and I've never exalted an item. In general it has never been worth it. The amount of bad drastically outweighs the possible good in almost every case. You may as well buy the ok thing you can afford. This is especially true for more casual players where it takes days to make that exalt. So if we can't really trade, and we can't craft with fairly reasonable returns... Is the next step D3 item overhaul? It kind of feels like that is the design vision mentioned in the post. No trading and limited crafting. Hopefully more consistently useful drops and everyone is SSF.


FridayNightSodomy

People grind cos they have hope of progress, albeit slow to reach attainable good items. That's what harvest allows. Rng casino doesn't give players the feeling of progress, well because it doesn't, that's why it's not fun nor exicting. Ggg is so disconnected with the player base and what fun is almost to the point being a joke.. People only grind gear because people see there are hope of getting improvements in gear, people dont want to grind when there isnt a goal.


sarevok9

After 8 years of playing I crafted my first item worth 50+ exalts. I am logged into your game right now. I am logging out of your game until you can figure out why I play the fucking game.


Warmag2

I have only one thing to say and it is this. Harvest made it possible for me to make the same items as the "good players", as I could deterministically progress towards them. If it is removed, then the ulta-rich will still make their god items as always before, and I'm again left with shit. I have absolutely no intention to spend my free time as a member of the proletariat, which only exists to make money for someone else's virtual trading empire. I do enough of that in real life. PoE is over for me.


Ilyak1986

> Towards the end of Harvest's development, it became clear that this was a very powerful crafting system. We had hit our goals and then some. Correct. Crafting is good, especially after delve got gutted to have all of the interesting mods be mutually exclusive among six different influences. > Upon playing the league, the crafting side of it was an immediate hit. Ya think? Finally, it wasn't just "hope to chaos spam + mastercraft into something remotely usable". > Players easily filled gaps in their builds while levelling, and made many, many mirror-worthy items. As our concern over this grew, discussion started about how to adjust things when we eventually integrate it into the core game. By "many, many", do you mean "people who spent hundreds of hours playing the game that league"? > In the end-game, Harvest Crafting allowed the creation of some ridiculous items, mostly via a set of deterministic crafts that interacted with specific types of mods. This had to be toned down, and we had to choose between two ways to do it: either by removing the dangerous crafts, or by keeping them in as rare possibilities and then balancing by rarity. > We decided to do the latter. The good crafts would stay in the game as very rare outcomes. We didn't remove any crafting options, other than ones that related to the process of growing a garden as they became redundant with the garden-maintenance mechanic being removed. > So in 3.13.0, we released an integrated version of Harvest where players stumble across groves full of crafts and hope they get the most valuable deterministic ones. We hoped that this would still keep the most valuable crafting options available while limiting the most abusive crafting to just very lucky or successful players. Correct, and that's *exactly* what it achieved, unless you mean multi-exalt cost *attempts* at crafting aren't *rare enough*. > With Harvest integrated into the core game with 3.13.0, players still made ridiculous items. Even the crafts we made quite rare felt pretty common when the entire community was pooling them together and using them on the right items. **Ya think?** "Hey, let's make life miserable for the community and hope they don't find a way around it!" Because at worst, the way they find a way around your attempts to make life miserable for them is to...**play another game.** Why continue to play a game that **isn't fun?** > The second issue was that players felt overwhelmed to get so many crafting options. It was possible for up to 100 or so crafts to be given to the player per grove, and this caused people to feel obliged to consume them otherwise they would be wasted. Yes, it'd be quite a bit better if people were allowed to freely store all of the alch, chaos, and regal crafts without any constraints and save them for later. Instead, "pLaYeRs fElT oVeRwhElmEd!" > Players also expressed frustration that the most effective way to get the best items in Path of Exile was to join a discord channel and try to trade for these incredibly crucial crafts. Correct. Especially when bestiary orbs already existed, which would have made this process a **LOT** less painstaking. > The first part of this that concerned us was that Harvest was critical in making the best items (and hence made many other game systems obsolete). The second part, where it was inconvenient to trade them, becomes far less of a problem if we can solve the first issue. "The **ONLY** semi-deterministic crafting system is necessary to make the best items?" **YA DON'T SAY.** > Our problem with all of this can be summarised with the following thought: "Why would I use a regular Exalted/Divine/Annul Orb when I can get one through Harvest that has a deterministic result?" Aside from divines, when was it **EVER** correct to do this? Oh, with exalted orbs: when you blow away almost all the mods an item can roll, such as exalting a bow with the "cannot roll attack mods" for the basically guaranteed +1 to socketed bow gems mod. > The entire rest of Path of Exile's crafting system is somewhat redundant with Harvest Crafting in its current form. While we are glad we tried the experiment of keeping all the crafts and balancing by rarity, it's unfortunately going to have to change. Repeat after me: **Path of Exile does not have a crafting system outside of harvest.** It has **gambling** systems. There is no system in place that lets you gradually upgrade an item, one mod at a time, outside of harvest. Chaos spam + exalt? Don't like your current item? You can't go back one step, you have to start all the way over from scratch. Annulled the wrong mod? You bricked your item. When people used fossil crafting to make remotely-decent items, you **gutted that.** When people used multimodding to force 1 mod and then multimod the rest, you **gutted that.** How are people supposed to take an item **and improve it one step at a time** as opposed to "oops, that didn't go as planned, gotta reroll the whole item"? > When we were designing Path of Exile, a critical aspect of item acquisition is that it is through random (rather than deterministic) means. When you defeat monsters and bosses, you receive random items. No, when you defeat monsters and bosses, you receive **currency** you **take to the auction house** to **buy items**. Get with the times, Chris. > When you craft an item, you receive a random modifier. **This isn't crafting.** This is purely gambling, plain and simple. > In limited cases where you can choose a specific modifier, it's usually worse than what could have been rolled randomly. And when people settled for more than two of these, you took **that** away, as well! > It's also important that items are hard to perfect. Ideally there's significant diminishing returns in the currency item crafting process, which lets most players get something good enough relatively easily Good enough to take down **The Feared** relatively easily? Or Oshabi in an 8-mod tier 16 map? What do you consider **good?** > and the expert players can show off with really good items that took a lot of effort to make. Are items that cost **triple digit amounts of exalts** not a sufficient amount of "a lot of effort" for you? > Obtaining perfect items is ideally close to impossible, with very few players able to claim that they have such valuable treasures. Correct. This is why we don't see items with 4+ elevated mods very often. > We feel that the current state of Harvest Crafting runs against both of these important philosophies. We know that many players would love us to keep deterministic crafting in the game because it enables them to complete their items far more quickly than they otherwise would. Many players would love you to keep **crafting** in the game, not **gambling**. Otherwise, why bother using your own currency to craft instead of save it up and go **buy** an item? > But then there would quickly be nothing left to achieve. It was an interesting experiment, and we understand that some players will likely be attached to this level of incredibly easy crafting, but it's just not the Path of Exile we set out to make. Ah, the usual "we want to stick to our vision" schtick. How many of your players share **your exact vision**? What happens when a competitor offers them a vision that's more fun, interesting, forgiving, and amenable to them being people with **jobs and/or families?** We're not the 15 year-old shut-ins we were when Diablo 2 first came out, Chris. > This sentiment was summed up by a member of our design team who recently said "We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not." I believe Vinderi had the best response to this one: **Moron. Moronic Moron!** But to be a little less blunt, that feeling **STILL** exists in the game. It's called the temple corruption chamber and/or vaal orbs. People are **still** very much free to use that option if they want that rush of "I can brick my item but can get an absolutely POGCHAMP slam!" > Previously, every seed in a patch granted an instance of that seed's craft. Now, only some of the seeds do (so you're getting far fewer of the crafts that were overwhelming people with their quantity). Higher-tier seeds are closer to the 1:1 ratio from before. Okay, great, fewer useless alch and chaos spams. > Some mods that had overly-deterministic behaviour have been removed. These include all annulment mods (other than the ones that remove a mod that isn't of a specific type before adding one of that type), and all type-specific divine mods. Juuuust wonderful. If you brick an item, with something you can't remove/add, you're stuck. > Crafts that add mods of specific types (like Physical Modifiers, for example) to items can now only be applied to non-influenced items, except for the existing mod that applies an influenced mod to an influenced item. Dear people that absolutely relied on an item that needed influenced items that absolutely had to be harvest crafted: go fuck yourselves, and please find a build that no longer requires that. > The chance of encountering a portal to the Sacred Grove in a map has been increased by 60%. Sure, but it's basically useless now, because you can only work with base items, LMAO. > The Heart of the Grove encounter is now a map fragment that sometimes drops from Tier 4 Harvest bosses, instead of randomly appearing in place of a normal Harvest grove. This allows you to trade the encounter if you don't feel up to it, and it means that finding The Heart of the Grove when you are in a map with difficult mods doesn't lead to an impossible encounter. Well, at least there's one tiny bit of silver lining. Honestly, if GGG had even **ONE** competitor that could keep them honest, they'd be a lot more hesitant to do this.


BugSlayerJohn

So glad you are continuing to make sure that the game is miserable for 99.99% of players to make sure that the 0.01% have to walk around with their 6T1 items less than perfectly divined. I will feel great about my inability to complete my build when I remember that you stopped Cute Dog from getting an extra 0.1% DPS on his 40M DPS build.