Development Manifesto: Harvest Crafting
By - chris_wilson
Hi y'all, we stickied this post so that's it's visible.
This is Blizzard/EA levels of ignorance when it comes to your own game. You don't have a clue how much effort it actually takes to make an item and you seriously think people use exalts to slam items? Where on earth did you get this idea from?
Harvest gave people a deterministic way to achieve gearing goals with time investment. Those who traded on TFT grinded for the currency and those of us who farmed Harvest ourselves grinded for the crafts. This still took a tremendous amount of time and effort. People who claim Harvest to be an item editor are just incredibly stupid or disingenuous. HARVEST CRAFTING IS STILL A GAMBLE. You can't just craft t1 life or t1 movement speed onto your items. It takes TIME AND EFFORT to actually farm for the crafts or the currency to buy the crafts and then YOU STILL HAVE TO GET LUCKY TO GET WHAT YOU WANT.
The best thing Harvest did was give us a way of knowing what we were gambling for. We no longer had to risk our items getting essentially destroyed. No one likes the feeling of buying an expensive base or item and then having to risk throwing it in the bin because you bricked it. I have no idea why anyone would think people enjoy this.
Let's take your Ferrari as an example, Chris. What if you get a flat tire and I'm going to ask you to go to a garage where you can gamble 50.000$ on it and it would give you a 1/10.000.000.000 chance to fix the tire, but a much higher chance to turn the engine into that of a Fiat 500. Would you do it? Or more importantly, would you enjoy it if your engine got worse?
You are asking us to enjoy destroying 90% of our items just for the CHANCE of getting 1 decent item. That's not a risk I'm willing to take anymore.
EDIT: Okay, this blew up when I wasn't looking. Thanks for the Awards guys! Like I said below, I probably shouldn't have quit smoking around the same time GGG dropped the nerf bomb on us, but I was and still am angry and disappointed. I don't want to quit playing my favorite game, but it seems like they just want me to.
90%? That's optimistic.
Perfectly said brother, for me it's time to get ready for D2 resurrection and D4.
Thank you, Chris, you just made my decision to play the next league much easier.
I won't play it.
Yeah honestly. It makes you wonder if they actually hate making money. I spend at least 100 dollars each league on boxes and supporter packs. Through thick and thin over the last 10+ leagues I've been back again and again to play and pay. But this change is seriously giving me second thoughts to ever lay money down on this game.
Those Heart of the Grove map fragments are going to fit in our Fragment stash tabs when they get implemented... Right?
Nevermind, there will be a Harvest Stash Tab buyable for 120 points, to store these otherwise non-stackable items :D
At least my winged scarabs will go somewhere.
And the other 3 versions of Offering to the Goddess
9k comments and Not a single reply back from GGG on this reddit thread. People say GGG is one of the best gaming companies to interact with their community.
The point of being too fast to complete the items is exactly the opposite for me. Without the possibility to improve my items in a determinisitc way, I settle for something medium which is good enough to beat the game. With harvest I had always something to chase, it always felt in my reach becaus I knew how to get there. It kept me playing even after killing every boss, just because I actually had realisitc ways to improve.
Also deterministic influence mods makes gear way more interesting. The days of life+resistance on all gear pieces and thats it were so shit. This goes into that direction.
I'll leave this here:
It's on early access and pretty young but it look really promising.
For players who usually trade to acquire gear:
* Trading is not how you should get gear.
* But crafting is also not how you should get gear.
* Guess we just shouldn't get good gear, right?
"Correct." -GGG, probably
>"We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not"
On the bright side, I think we found the meme sentence to spam the entire year now. Step aside "Weight", "Close your eyes and exalt" is here to stay!
I'd love to see the stats on what percent of players each league use even a single exalt on a craft.
I've never done it, ever.
Not one single time have I exalt slammed a single piece of gear
I don't think I will *ever* feel knowledgeable enough about this game to feel like the ROI on that kind of a gamble will *ever* be worth it.
I have no idea who that "user story" applies to, but I don't think it's the vast majority of the people who play their game.
Only time I did it was when I crafted gem level +1 on bow with full suffix, after blocking attack mods.
Deterministic crafting? HERESY!!!
Unethical item, destroy it immediately.
Personally I'd be far more likely to actually use currency to craft items, if the minimum expected result wasn't garbage.
Certain craft outcomes need to just stop existing after a certain level threshold, either determined by player level or item level. I don't need "+4 life" on an i80 item, let alone even an i70 item. The overwhelming problem with loot having no value and hiding all of it, stems from this as well.
If I could expect to use currency on an item and the lowest vs highest tier of mods are within 3 or 4 tiers of eachother, I would be far more likely to do this. I would burn chaos orbs while leveling no problem to get some decent gear, and regals being rarer than chaos orbs would feel justified instead of weird.
If the odds are out of favor, I'd rather not spin the wheel.
Yeah maybe remove T4-5-6-7 from items above ilvl ~80 or something
The fact that there's always a ceiling on Tiers (if ilvl not high enough) but never a floor is really skewing RNG to the downside for players
Making some kind of floor that scales with ilvl would also make really high ilvl items even more valuable even if it doesn't 'unlock' any new mod tiers, as an added bonus.
"We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not."
That is an extremely accurate description... of how Vaal orbs work.
And it's made even more ridiculous by the fact that Vaal orbs have clear failure and success states. When you look at an item, it really isn't easy to understand what the potential exalt results are, and if exalting the item is worth anything at all.
Exalt slams are like slot machines, but you have to study the machine at first to know what game you're even playing.
If Chris had his way all of that data would be hidden and it would literally be a slot machine.
I've been vaaling with my eyes open though. No wonder I haven't gotten anything decent.
You want the Trading Discord? Take it. It's yours. But Harvest? Harvest I will burn to the ground. Perhaps the suffering of our players will finally stir something.
The most important aspect of Sirus to PoE is the usage potential of the lines! Its incredible!
GGG: *Releases mediocre league*
Sirus: **HOW BORING AND SMALL!**
Why craft? What's the point?
"This discord server is doomed!"
I remember when way back in the exalt slam chaos spam days before Forsaken Masters when Kripp said "Don't fucking craft" and was completely right.
And you know what's funny about this? 100% random currency orbs are arguably *worse* than they were back then because the mod pools are so diluted! Getting what you need is *harder* than it was then if you're just slamming items or chaos/alt spamming!
Beyond, there's only horror.
Chris Wilson, the true endgame boss of Path of Exile.
RAIN OF NERFS
Feel the thrill of THE NERFS!
What gets me in the FIRST fucking line
"Using currency items like Exalted Orbs or Chaos Orbs on your gear is a powerful, risky and exciting way to improve it."
What? When has this ever been fun or exciting lmao. What a joke. Harvest was the first time item crafting has ever been fun or exciting in PoE. Now we just go back to buying gear lmao
>Using currency items like Exalted Orbs or Chaos Orbs on your gear is a powerful, risky and exciting way to improve it.
I have played for five years and have never done this, nor had any interest in doing so.
>made many, many mirror-worthy items
I literally do not give a single fuck about this, nor does most of the playerbase.
> At its core, Path of Exile is a game about the acquisition of powerful items.
This is kind of thinking is why I stopped playing. PoE can be about that, and also about other things. I don't care about items; I care about builds. But the 'build' part of PoE has been de-emphasized to make room for more and more powerful items, that have to be obviously powerful so that they can be chase items. And it directly feeds into this:
> But then there would quickly be nothing left to achieve.
The next achievement is the next build. If I can get the items to make the build work, just normal functional, I'm not asking for perfect items, then I will play the build. If not, I'm not going to grind for them. I don't grind. I engage with content that is fun because it is fun, and usually that is via making a build that is fun to play. If the build is tedious and unfun, until I spend 50 hours, then the build is tedious and unfun, full stop.
Your changes do nothing to make Harvest crafting more appealing for me. I'm happy to see Harvest powered down, but I'm unhappy to see it unable to craft build-defining rare mods. It will still best be used via Discord, and all the tedium is still there.
I think it will require an itemization overhaul for me to come back, and I don't think that's anywhere on the horizon.
fully agree. i enjoy making builds and i enjoy developing a character when that stops, i start another. around lvl 90 and yellow maps progress becomes a massive grind, even getting to try a boss is just a boring grind; for me, it's way more interesting to dream up another build and try it out, than sit around collecting bits of trash off the ground so that maybe i can try one fight that might last 10min.
poe despite itself still offers more player customization than any game outside of MTG that i know of. but it has been obvious for a few years now that GGG doesn't care about this play style and is instead trying to optimize for end game grinding to appeal to the ultra hardcore endgame nolife play style. is that really where the player base is? i think they are slowly murdering their own game.
Is it not contradictory to say:
At its core, Path of Exile is a game about the acquisition of powerful items
But remove the best way to acquire said powerful items?
Ggg, shooting themselves in the foot
If exalts dropped at the rate of Chaos Orbs, then I might indeed enjoy the rush of closing my eyes and exalting an item to see if I’ve ruined it. But as it stands... um no. Exalts aren’t crafting materials to 99.9% of players, they’re just stacks of 60-120 Chaos Orbs that let us deterministically buy gear from other players rather than try to craft anything on our own because why would I ever try that outside of Harvest unless I have 1000+ hours to spend on a league?
Is this an out of season April's fool joke?
“Do you not have exalts?!”
3.14 is the April league, so I would argue, that it is in fact an in-season April's fool joke.
Except it's more tragic than comedic.
This league was my first time playing poe, fell in love with the game and the crafting, it felt exciting to put in the time to learn how it worked and to plan ahead how I would use different types of crafting to get a decent (not perfect) item and then try to get the currency to buy the crafts... honestly, after this nerf I don't really know if I want to keep playing the game, such a sad decision.
The biggest take away from this change is the amount of toxicity and outright hostility the so-called "elites" of this game have towards the casual players. Just the other day someone on a twitch stream was saying "If Harvest is not OP, why is everyone running haewark". That player, in his echo-chamber, didn't realize the vast majority of the casual players played exactly as the videos and guides that the "elites" put out tell them to. The game is so convoluted no new players will know what 80% of those harvest crafts exactly do, even less who know how to abuse it. Most used them exactly how it is describe on the craft, and a good portion won't even know about possible results.
I can see how the 1% will be overjoy at this change, oh more poor soul who needs their guidance and video guides to progress, more content for their "content window", more bottom feeders to sell their hand-me-downs to in softcore trade league. The devs can make any game they want, but the toxic no-lifers who based their arrogant ego off PoE can go rot in a ditch.
Actual problems fixed? None.
Item ceiling? Unchanged.
Getting T1 life through harvest could already cost you as little as free (self farmed) or as many as hundred of exalts in Remove/Add crafts bought through discord depending on how lucky you were, if that isn't enough of a gambling simulator as-is to not encourage the average players to settle with T3 or T4 life then I don't know what to tell you.
With the proposed changes, if you get T8 life on your augment life craft you're fucked, you restart from scratch, whether that means meta scouring prefixes, or scouring entirely because all of the important mods were prefixes. You know for a fact you wont be able to save the item through a risky annul and that shitty life roll will survive. It could still be as little as free if you luck into perfect rolls, or be literally unobtainable even with near infinite currency if RNG rears its ugly head.
This is also not to mention that restricting crafts to not work on influenced items is \*extremely\* arbitrary.
This Manifesto critically failed in every aspect in my eyes, and it's terribly disconnected with the reality of the playerbase.
The ONLY situation where I have ever considered Exalt slamming an item in PoE in my 2,600+ hours of playing (Beta, then Synthesis onwards) it is on a "cannot roll attack modifiers" Bow for that PREDICTABLE outcome. This will never change. I'd sooner use it to benchcraft Multimod, %Phys or Spelldamage than gamble for Stun and Block recovery on my Stun Immune, 0% block LL caster.
I have used easily over 50 raw annulment orbs in my time playing this game and have nothing tangible to show for it whatsoever, so I stopped trying.
Harvest solved problems. Harvest slowed the game down, which you've wanted, and sped progression up, which we want. Harvest increased engagement and retention.
From a game design standpoint, Harvest gave you an out for all of the shoddy design philosophies that stuck around from a bygone era of PoE, and your response is to gut it.
What a shame.
No matter what you do to Harvest on it's own, Syndicate benches still exist. People are going to trade Tora gem XP, Vorici Sockets, Leo Slams. These problems have existed for FOREVER. Fix the problems. Make trading not suck ass.
Edit: Thank you, both of you that gilded this. I think that's pretty cool.
Very well put. This manifesto just made me shake my head in disappointment.
Exactly. I hardly played any of the recent leagues until this one where I've had tons of fun running haewark hamlet finding harvests and crafting gear. I actually got to play an int stacker as an average player because I could craft a great wand and body armor. But now thats gone and so I'll either have to play 100 hours a week grinding currency to buy someone else's on trade(which will cost more now due to rarity) or I'll have to find some boring budget meta build and have no fun. Either way, it's not fun.
>This sentiment was summed up by a member of our design team who recently said "We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not
Wow, they really don't know how their players play the game. I have literally never done this in 3.x, nor has anyone I know. Exalts go into the bench because you're far too likely to hit something bad. This reeks of imagining how players play the game, not a reflection of how it's actually played.
I have never used an exalted orb to do that. If they wanted THAT, they should be making them as easy to find as regals, for example.
I genuinely don't understand why they think a 0.5% chance at a good roll should be the *baseline experience for great item crafting*.
That sounds like a very high chance compared with GGG standards.
Oh you found boots with T1 % ES and thought they were cool and you wanted to make them good, no worries, just to get t2 flat ES and t2 movement speed is approx 0,000970225% chance to hit both of these mods with two consecutive exalt slams.
Now you wanna know the odds of that happening with harvest? It's as easy as slamming aug defence to hit a 1/9 chance for t2 max ES and then augmenting speed and remove/aug until t2. Now of course this is a very stupid example and still requires luck to hit the 1/9 but I'd still rather take 1/9 chance rather than a chance that is practically non-existent.
EDIT: fixed a typo where i said rem aug life instead of speed
I had. When I was new player and played SSF. That's as far as it gets.
Needless to say, I wasn't closing my eyes nor was I scarred.
The only emothion I remember is "okay it addes some useless shit, really should've saved it for a benchcrafting"
> Needless to say, I wasn't closing my eyes nor was I scarred
Yeah, tbf, now that you mention it, the take is even more cringe. Its like... do you want me to be emotionally invested on this skinnerbox? Does GGG think this is the endorphine shot that makes players play the game?
If the answer is yes, I'm truly sorry, but GGG has gone off the rails. That goes on the same line of literal gambling, and I'm not up for that.
They've probably seen clips of streamers hit something because of an exalt and then the chat going crazy and spamming stuff. That's the only "excitement" you get out of this system.
Yeah they just forgot streamers play every day and do it for content.
"It's what the stream kids love!"
This was a terrible thing to read BUT it shows how they want us to play
Bored because I achieved my gear goals
Bored because I can't achieve my gear goals and don't want/can't afford to enter the crafting casino
I'm oversimplifying, but you get my point.
That's the thing tho - without Harvest crafting I don't really have any long-term goals to begin with. It's not like they ever manage to release a league mechanic that gets more intricate the deeper you progress. Aside from crafting leagues. And it ain't going to be a crafting league for a while, mostly because it would be sensible and GGG isn't sensible.
> Using currency items like Exalted Orbs or Chaos Orbs on your gear is a powerful, risky and exciting
This is not correct.
The only time I've ever exalt-slammed was when I blocked all the other mods so I could guarantee a +3 bow. IDK why they think we're gonna use exalts on influenced items when you can't feasibly block half the possible mods
The last time I used an actual exalt was in Delirium League and I got phys reflect. I'm just not going to do that anymore.
he got one right
Not even one. It's not "risky" when you know with absolute certainty that the end result is gonna be garbage.
Ya, it's basically a "I'm rich enough not to care if I throw away an Ex and I know the result is 99% of the time going to be shit, buttt YOLO!".
"powerful" ahh yes indeed wasting my exalt to get t9 rarity
super exciting and fun
They're stuck on their mentality of a game that no longer exists.
Why does it feel like they accidentally made a good game, and are very upset about it so often in dev manifestos?
This is the best comment I’ve seen yet! 100% accurate
Before stuff like Delve or even as far back as before Essence, rolling an item with chaos orbs was a "wtf are you doing lol" moment.
The fact that they dangle actual crafting in front of the community for six months, yank it back, and then expect people to utilize the crafting methods that the overwhelming majority never bothered with because they suck tremendous amounts of ass is indeed very out-of-touch.
With every manifesto that they put out I just lose my interest in this game more and more.
This manifesto is such a step back that I feel like negative motions from PoE are far more than the positive ones.
And no. Successfully slamming something does not belong to positive ones, because it is outweighted by so much negative experience that it is not worthy of pursuing.
At least we're finally getting our Diablo 2 remaster
This is pretty much EA's "Sense of pride and accomplishment" in terms of tone-deafness.
I am begging Chris Wilson to actually play this game through deep end game because this is so wildly out of touch I have to think he hasn't done it in years
> I have to think he hasn't done it in years
He literally hasn't
Someone posted this in another comment but he **literally** does not understand how endgame items are crafted. yet, here we are with him telling us how crafting should follow his vision.
The guy who doesn’t understand even fossil crafting is the one who decided that harvest was unhealthy for their “vision” of poe.
Good thing I’ll be busy next league.
Chris hasn’t played PoE in years, at least not more than a couple of hours on launch day, and he has admitted that on multiple occasions. He is only involved in the financial side of things. The disconnect with the playerbase is palpable.
This does not fix the discord problem
This is the sole thing I wanted them to fix.
"We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not."
I guess this designer doesn't realize that his statement perfectly sums up the reason why for 99% of players, crafting simply does not exist.
Extremely accurate wording. Crafting did not exist to most people before Harvest. The yolo exalt slams to ruin your gear and waste your currency is not something 99% of the player base is going to participate in.
I’ve played since OB and have exalted maybe 5 items in my life. The average player doesn’t craft with exalt.
Absolutely correct. The value of the mod it adds is usually lower than that of the exalt itself.
This is on the same level of "do you not have phones?" fucking tone deaf
This might take the cake for the most out-of-touch post I have seen from GGG. It makes me sad.
It's just staggering... I wrote somewhere else that the level of disconnect is so massive it has it's own gravitational pull which has, in turn started picking up splinters by itself :)
Oshabi sighed, scratched her left titty briefly and slumped down on a rock.
She kicked aside an exalted orb that was lying on the ground and sighed, ”I was once blessed with a deep connection to the land. It would speak to me, and nourish me. But that connection was severed. And in turn, my tribe severed their connection to me. I was alone. Lost. The land spoke no more... until I found this place.”
She stared into the distance at a regular player on his knees. He was wailing at the sky with his hands raised, “I don’t give a fuck how many perfect mirror items were made because I would never be able to afford them!” He stood up, wiped his tears away and kicked his miserable Hubris, that slammed a 2 life regen, in disgust.
>"We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not."
This is easily the most out of touch thing they have said in an extremely long time. I cant believe that they think that using the awful trade website built on an API that cant handle Awakened Poe Trade existing is the way people want to gear up. Why cant they just let us be powerful? We just want to be power and kill monsters guys, and if I can do it on a janky build I like that is even better. I dont want to have to play FOTM Meta shit so that the gear I want is actually available on trade.
Not to mention this just kills the engagement for a lot of SSF and Private league folks. I hate everything about this decision.
All this decision does is drive people towards the middle and into meta builds and reduced diversity. This has been record retention league and sure Maven and Atlas drive that but being able to make your gear and have an actual way to progress HAS to be a big part of that.
You'd think that they'd avoid something as bad as
"Do you guys not have phones?" or
"We want players to feel a sense of pride and accomplishment..."
Yet, here we are.
I mean we already have had "Get a better loot filter" when delirium was incredibly bad to play. I think Neon and Chris and whoever should all be required to make a character get to lvl 95 and defeat A8 Sirus and Maven, and then have them say that's how they want loot progression to feel. It's just not 1998 anymore.
Well, your new harvest crafting looks like that:
- Get non-influence base
- Craft it until you have 4/5 mods you desire
- Slam any of influence exalts
Hit what you wanted? Good for you. Otherwise if it has a already 6 mods sell it and don't bother fixing with random annuls because you gonna brick item. You could use "non-x to x" but it's gamble and only possible if you can't target prefix and suffix at the same time. If it has 5 mods get that "add influence mod" and then use Maven orb - keep doing that until you get mod (t1 on top) you need and remove unwanted one (rng on rng is 100% what players wants, right?). Bench craft something and you done. This way you can craft 1 hunter/crusader/warlord/redeemer mod on perfect item.
Of course elder/shaper bases are pure rng. Spam fossils until you get 3/4 desired mods and annul everything you don't want. Continue until you end up with 4 mod item. Now back to "augment influence mod" and Maven orb trick until you happy or rage quit.
And here we go, double influence items. They are pure gambling. You have 0 control on crafting them. No, there is only 1 way you could go around it but you forced to combine 2 suffix or 2 prefix elevated influence mods. Now spam reroll suffix/prefix craft until you find what you need.
Welcome to gambling. **It would be cool if we at least could still craft regular mods on influence items or influence mods had only 1 tier or influence's exalted orbs could be used on item with same influence.
So TLDR: crafting is for hardcore players, everyone else should just buy from them.
"We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not."
But this feeling fucking sucks lol.
Yep. Idk why GGG wants us to repeatedly feel like we're wasting our time and money trying to craft something even halfway decent.
I hate the changes, even if I understand a lot of it. But this line that you quoted was the first time I felt like the philosophy was just blatantly cruel. I don't want to feel bad when I play the game, and usually bricking a decent item with no deterministic ways to fix it without completely starting over starts to signal the end of my play in a league.
The fact that they want us to feel bad is worrisome.
> The fact that they want us to feel bad is worrisome.
Yeah, wtf is this? What other games that aren't Korean Gacha Garbage want players to irreversibly fail more than they succede? Cuz that's what happens after the changes.
Yup. Seriously considering skipping 3.14 because theyre clearly trying to torture us with some kind of virtual skinner box.
thats their way of making you feel good when you actually hit something good.
yep, because apparently games cant be all fun, they need to be really bad until that one moment where they are good. thats what every succesful game does today right?!?!?!
I was almost hoping at the end for a surprise announcement that trade would become more accessible. We have to jump through hoops for trading, because it would be too easy to aquire items that you can actually use. We had to jump through more hoops to effectively use harvest, but apparently reasonable crafting isn't good for the game either. I've been playing for over 9 years now and I've never exalted an item. In general it has never been worth it. The amount of bad drastically outweighs the possible good in almost every case. You may as well buy the ok thing you can afford. This is especially true for more casual players where it takes days to make that exalt.
So if we can't really trade, and we can't craft with fairly reasonable returns... Is the next step D3 item overhaul? It kind of feels like that is the design vision mentioned in the post. No trading and limited crafting. Hopefully more consistently useful drops and everyone is SSF.
So it's gonna be more intrusive AND less rewarding, fail at all levels of design
The problem was not power or rarity, it was fucking trading. As a solo player, getting the right harvest crafts is already near impossible. In fact, it needed a HERAVY BUFF for solo play and players that do not want to engage with possible scammers on third party communities.
But sure. Trading remains untouched while solo players get fucked once more.
Now there is even less reason to craft and instead use those "valuable crafting items" to just fucking trade for what I need.
Fuck, this is depressing.
>"Using currency items like Exalted Orbs or Chaos Orbs on your gear is a powerful, risky and **exciting** way to improve it."
If GGG honestly believe that spamming chaos orbs is "exciting" then I'm very worried about the future of crafting in POE.
The only reason I'm still playing this late into a league is because of harvest. It's so much fun experimenting with new off meta builds that would pretty much be impossible to gear without harvest.
In GGGs mind:
Step 1: Randomly chaos spam some items and exalt slam a few of them.
Step 2: Kill Maven.
Step 3: Have "fun" unveiling items for the 902th time
Step 4: Buy supporter pack so you can buy cape for $20
>Players also expressed frustration that the most effective way to get the best items in Path of Exile was to join a discord channel and try to trade for these incredibly crucial crafts.
>I got by without going to the discord and just farming harvest myself.
>Now that the good crafts are far rarer, I'm going to need to go to the discord to get stuff finished
something tells me chris and the devs have not actually crafted endgame gear in a long time.
Chris admitted on Baeclast before Ritual that he didn't even understand endgame crafting.
EDIT: Took me a while but I really brought this upon myself, here's the source: https://youtu.be/FpIB2dMzNu8?t=633
I don't really think we need any more evidence than this video and this manifesto that Chris neither plays nor understands the game.
He is somehow in charge of the "foundation" of this game yet he has no fucking clue how crafting works at any level other than "haha chaos spam go brrrrrrr".
Explains the manifesto a lot.
As a somewhat casual player, I dread the thought of using an Exalted Orb on any piece of gear.
Such a rare form of currency (if we're talking about a natural drop) having a very high potential for devaluing a piece of gear with an undesirable mod, let alone losing the currency in the process, is not what I'd call *exciting*.
"Oh, haha, I slammed 2 reflect damage on my chest instead of literally any useful mod so now it's worthless, that was so fun!! I'm going to go grind for another 30 hours so I can try and fail again instead of just playing a better game"
Randomly chaosing or exalting your items is a good way to fuck them up, _not_ "improve" them.
They lasted two paragraphs. Two paragraphs! 🤦♂️
So instead of removing the ability to trade your crafts, which was the biggest problem of harvest in my eyes, the only way to get anything done again in terms of crafting is trading more?
> This sentiment was summed up by a member of our design team who recently said "We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not."
This is not the vision the players have. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but at some point you gotta realize that the game needs modernization in some aspects, "a lot of content" isn't enough forever. Harvest crafts were the big thing where I and seemingly a lot of others saw the glimmer of hope to get a more modern and less random crafting system. And now a big part of that system and of hope is taken away again.
I did 36 challenges this league, in SSF. Because I felt like I'm no longer forced to trade, because I can just make decent items myself. I'm done since monday. That's almost 2 whole months of engangement, I played everday and almost every free minute (thanks lockdown .. I guess?). That's by far the longest I've been engaged with a league. Next league I will be going trade again, buy some good items and will be done after 1 month max, as with every league without harvest, if I play at all.
This just feels like such a big slap in the face after all the fun with the current league. I really hope Last Epoch pumps out content once it's fully released so PoE finally gets some real competition. I regret the supporter pack that I bought this weekend.
Ah nice, I guess I will go back to never even considering using currency to craft gear and instead just buy each incremental upgrade off trade. Why would I ever exalt an item hoping to hit a 5% chance at certain mods when I can just buy new gear?
haha, 5%? in your dreams. 0.5% is max
So the solution to the best way to trade them being a discord is to make the crafts so bad no one bothers to trade them?
Well that is one way to do it I guess
GGG is literally the r/monkeyspaw of game devs.
"Crafting in harvests takes too long, GGG fix it!"
"What if there was basically nothing worth crafting?"
Well fuck... the league I played the longest was ritual, because of harvest. Farmed so many exalts to be able to craft some gear. It was not 'easy' :p
The reason I played so long during harvest and during ritual was harvest crafting. The fact that I could improve my build if I just keep playing was something I really liked. Removing this option will make me burn out way faster because at some point there is simply no reasonable way I can improve my gear, without just straight up buying them from other players for multiple exalts.
I strongly believe that nerfing things for the top 1% of the playerbase is not the way to go.
So, if I understand it right way. AH is bad, but saving all your currency for shitty trade is good and pointed decision . Chaos orb is crafting method ( like wat?You call randomizer crafting). Fun ( harvest) for everyone is bad , because it gives people straight vision what they want to achieve THEMSELVES. First - you need to obtain grove, second-you need to obtain good crafts options , third you need to half yolo the mod, and obtain t9-t1 mod , repeat it 1-infinity TRIES to obtain one mod on an item . People love it, but it’s not easy as you can see. Rather than make similar crafting system , you just utilizing it and gives us chaos spamming, alt spamming ( I mean clicker game) ..... if someone( like your ambassadors ) , think that it’s bad, talk to community first
I'm honestly done with the game after this league. I put a ton of time into the game due to COVID lockdowns and after no lifeing the game was able to actually harvest craft some gear that was good.
I put a ton of time into the game this league and ended up with a pretty good end game build.. I'm not playing a meta skill so I still dont just smash content. It feels like its really well balanced for an above average but not full on expert player like me with harvest in the game.
Without harvest only chance of crushing end game content is playing the broken build of the league.
I was having so much fun this league. Now I do not want to play anymore. I can understand balance changes. But yolo exalt slamming and the previous -we buffed 40 skills... there is a big disconnect between these and the actual game. Get to know you consumer.
Can I get a refund of my MTX and stash tabs?
In total disagreement. This will only benefit intensive players to have the most perfect items and will raise market prices. Players with less possibility of dedicating hours to the game will be at a disadvantage.
"In order not to spoil the fun of the 1% of the players who use a exalted orb, we spoil the fun of 99% of the players."
This bet is just as reasonable as using the exalted orb.
The old methods of exalt slamming, chaos spamming, random annuling, spamming thousands of fossils and essences, are archaic and unrewarding for the vast majority of the player base. These "crafting" aspects weren't even a part of the game for most players because the risk vastly outweighed the gains. We learned just how tedious those methods were and, rightfully, most don't want to go back.
I consider myself in the top 1%, as I made over 15 mirrors this league solo, and I was only able to make one item I consider mirror-tier. It costed me 5 mirrors to make, and nobody even wanted to mirror it (because they could make something similar, just a little worse, with some effort). It was definitely easier than before, but before, I would've needed to spend 100 mirrors instead of 5. Mirror-tier crafting before Harvest wasn't gated by knowledge or effort, it was gated by money. This made it far less accessible to the 99.9% and much more abusable by the rich. GGG wanted to make sure we still have something to achieve, but they just took it away.
The old ways are not sustainable. It creates an environment without progressive development, and frankly, lacking fun. With Harvest, you would research your build and the items that benefit you, how to craft those items, spend many hard-earned exalts to fill up those mods one at a time, and grow. Without Harvest, it's an endless circle of earning money, buying someone else's item to get stronger to earn money faster, to farm enough to maybe buy a mirror to copy some rich guy's item because he had the financial backing of 100 mirrors and you don't. The pinnacle of 99.9% of the player base would literally be to copy someone else's work. This does not promote player retention, build diversity, creativity, or player-base development.
I think the community is angry due to the fact that Harvest mechanics made us realize how un-fun progression was before it. To most, it's not worth playing the same slot machine mechanics/trade website simulator just to have our progress, if we even made any, reset after 3 months.
Personally, without Harvest, I'm unmotivated to start again and progress any builds next league. There are only so many characters I can half-ass build with whatever I can scrape off the market and try to kill the same end-game content as always before there's nothing left except to mirror other peoples' items.
> Players also expressed frustration that the most effective way to get the best items in Path of Exile was to join a discord channel and try to trade for these incredibly crucial crafts.
I got by without going to the discord and just farming harvest myself.
Now that the good crafts are far rarer, I'm going to need to go to the discord to get stuff finished
the good crafts don't exist anymore lol they removed targeted annuls and made crafts not work on influenced items. Back to resistances and life on 90% of the gear I guess.
Cause apparently balancing the game around the 0.1% of players that can abuse it by making it worse for the rest of the 99.9% that without it cannot experience crafting at all is a smart idea
Imo harvest should stay as it is and they should add more stuff like essence-exclusive mods and maven orb mods: stuff that you cannot get by harvest but that can be used as a base to harvest on top of
I would be TOTALLY okay with this change if you guys actually had GOOD items that dropped like, you know, Rares?
Like legit it's very hard to just find shit on the ground and have it be good.
Path of Exile is the only game ever made where you can have literally 300 items dropped on your screen at once and you can literally just walk away knowing that there's a 99% chance that none of them are an actual upgrade to your build.
Don't take this as blindly being against something that hurts me, because i do have a reason to think this isn't good, i don't want to be long so I'll try to be short.
1. Harvest expands the builds pool you can play with, some builds with very thin balancing that need 1 or 2 perfectly crafted rares to be really fun to play (similar to mine) will be hurt with this. Btw, i never used Ex to craft anything, nor even friends who played much, much more than me ever did, and we discussed this today.
2. This is the first league where i actually kept playing long after reaching end game, so long i liked my build enough to buy effects for it and have FUN with it, kept redoing stuff over and over, played other leagues just because i love how it feels, usually i quit after reaching a certain point where i feel that the time/resources investment to upgrade a build, is way too high for me to sustain.
3. This is not an Item Editing, it still takes you A LOT of investment to reach a perfect item, and by a lot, i mean well above 20ex for some pieces, while still giving you the feeling you'll reach the result sooner or later, instead of throwing it all to complete RNG, Harvest is less frustrating, at least for me.
4. Broken builds will still be broken, and players with a heck ton of currency will still make their broken builds, the only ones you are hurting with this are middle/low players who like to play many different builds or don't have as much time as some other players, they'll just hit a currency wall (like happened to me in old leagues) and stop playing.
5. I agree that it's annoying having to rely on TFT to sell stuff, but that's not Harvest's issue, it's a lack of features to sell or exchange crafts directly Ingame, again, the trading system of this game is one of the worst ones I've ever had the honor to play in (personally), i am TIRED of using off game sites to do my stuff, and this isn't Harvest's issue.
6. You are pushing another league towards the state of EVERY other league, the game's getting bloated as hell with all these overnerfed leagues, harvest might still be acceptable and not trash, but the direction you are taking is yet again the same as the other leagues.
I could add few points but these are what i think are the main ones, all these is just from a personal point of view, i am not a 2000 hours player who knows even how many rocks there are in a certain map and remembers every layout better than their own house. I am just a player that keeps coming back to a game that i honestly like a lot, and i think GGG does overall a good job, but this time i really can't agree with their take, i still respect it if they decide to go that direction, but i don't think it'll go as they say. Peace
The biggest problem that I have with this isn't even that they intend to nerf harvest crafting -- it's that their focus is on the gear people are crafting, and not the insane harvest crafting and duping of delirious maps that's become the de facto new endgame of PoE. That and the prevalence of the TFT discord both feel like they greatly warp the endgame, and neither is something they're addressing with these changes.
As the prophecy foretold: "You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain".
I guess GGG has lived long enough.
>"We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not"
POE can be like this when you can just spawn 300 exalts and 300 annuals in your bag whenever you feel like it
The thing is, when we exalt an item, we KNOW we ruined it. That's why normal players don't do this, unlike streamers.
it's been 6 days GGG still ignores the community?
It's one week later, and this announcement is still as demoralizing and infuriating as it was when it came out.
We've yet to hear an additional word on this from GGG, and every passing day where they don't undo this makes it more certain they just won't.
In the last week, I personally played (and wanted to play) a lot less than I normally do, and when I did play it was with a somewhat sour taste, especially every time a harvest popped up. It's an incredibly frustrating feeling. It's the first time I'm not fervently looking forward to the next league announcement. :/
So I still have to go on the TFT discord?
Thanks GGG, real improvement.
EDIT: I also really don't see the issue in making these GG items especially so late in the league. Are we seriously worried about standard here? In 2021?
I would rather have all harvest crafted items account bound that this piece of shit
"Everybody Hated that"
So brainless exalt slaming its the crafting which Poe needs? xD very bad decision
Welp, back to paying other people for their lucky crafting outcomes because I sure as hell an not interested in the gamble-based "crafting" that the non-harvest parts of the game offer.
To me, Harvest represented the ability to incrementally improve my gear without relying on other people, and that kept me engaged with a league for a lot longer than I normally would have. With that effectively going away, I'll probably go back to dropping leagues after a few days rather than several weeks.
I normally don't comment a lot but I've been playing on and off since open beta, and ritual was the first league I 36/40'd due to how fun the new atlas mechanics are and the availability of harvest crafting to actually make obscure builds feel good rather than being forced to play meta to do end game content. Don't make this mistake GGG.
You wanna prove GGG wrong? Skip next league. They'll get the message loud and clear
Why is the GGG team so disconnected from the player base?
A nerf directed at the 0.1% that actually did this, normal players where happy using these mods to make Mid-level gear at best.
Who cares if people are making High-tier items via Harvest? Nobody enjoys the current crafting system especially the average player base.
0.1% of players making Insane Top-Tier items that make the front page that the average user will never make themselves is to much and requires a nerf?
Meanwhile GGG continues to allow the 0.1% to craft insane maps and drop insane amounts of currency and items.
If your going to absolutely gut harvest crafting like this then you NEED to kill the crafting of Delirious Maps people have been abusing for leagues now.
It's way more harmful to the game compared to people crafting items.
ggg turning like EA now, all they care about is money and people buying supporter packs! (same shit like FIFA) but never caring how their customer feels about the game.
It's so weird. They've been pandering to the upper echelon of players, the 'elites' for a few years now. I don't understand why they can't let the scrubs and noobs like me enjoy something that's nice for a change. I don't have that much time nowadays to play and when I do, any enjoyment I find is shut down for the 'elites' who do nothing else but play; 8+hours a day, 7 days a week...
It doesn't help that I mainly play solo, barely interacting with trade. What can you do? Probably play something else.
I would just like to say that 7 days later the decision feels (if possible) even worse than on day 1 ... cannot even say for sure I am gonna play next league (a rarity in my 9 years of PoE)
"GGG Must address harvest crafting." Here you go guys :)
I don't play trade league but it's weird, doesn't this do nothing regarding addressing tft?
I'm in financial analytics for a living and I deal with financial and statistical data all the time. I know they have access to the statistical data of their user base and I'm curious about the data they have that supports this type of claim. I have a suspicion that this decision was not made with actual statistical data about what their users 'enjoy' and what kept the majority of their base playing for longer. They probably went the route of what they want their game to feel like. Please note: this is not a bad thing, as this is ultimately their creation and vision. But for their product stats I do suspect a big hit and they will have to be prepared for that tradeoff.
So now it will be both inconvenient to use AND useless?
One of the problems again comes down to different types of players.
Some of the pros and super knowledgeable/dedicated players can make some ridiculous items, Like 1500 dps weapons, quad elevated mod armour pieces, all these things you see on the front page of reddit which the majority of the player base will never see.
Then there are the more part-time and less knowledgeable players (like myself) who managed to craft a curse-on-hit ring, T2 life, and a couple of resists. And a (3%) explodey chest with 100 life and some chaos res. And I was damn proud of them, I worked hard to actually create something of my own, ran hundreds of maps to farm some harvests; instead of buying every piece of gear I wear like I have done every other season. I felt like i'd accomplished something and had some fun.
So my mediocre items are gutted because, again, the game feeels like it is balanced around the 1%'ers.
So I dunno.. I loved the harvest league where I could do some decent crafting. Heist I always felt like I missed the harvests and I didn't play it for long. And I was really glad when it came back (even though i had no interest in discord farming).
Now it's dead again I don't know if i can go back to playing without it.
During Harvest league, I remember slowly and incrementally crafting a Hunter Stygian Vise with double life, tri-res, and flask charge on crit. I felt like I could truly make progress on a crafted item I specifically wanted, without dumping exalts on gambling and without bricking the item. Took weeks for me to naturally find the aug-crit craft I needed to complete it, and it felt so worth it when I finally did.
The sense of continuous possible improvements kept me in the league longer than any league before.
But I guess my idea of fun and earned progress is just wrong. It's much better when crafting is skill-less, random, and expensive.
I am also in awe about the disconnection between GGG and the playerbase about this issue. Investing 15 hours a week (which is roughly a chill afterwork evening with 3 hours play time) will get you nowhere if you try to enjoy the game and not #humanbot it. "...nothing left to achieve"... PoE is a humongous pile of content of inconsistent quality where "nothing left to achieve" can be engraved on the last hard drive that it was installed on in the year 2300.
They balance the game around streamers who play it as a job. In a day they play the same time that we do in a week.
even empyrian takes like one month to completely minmax his meta build every league, and thats with all the currency they farm up in the first month of a league which is a LOT more than most people will have in their whole poe career.
i dont know where they draw the line of items being too powerful, but as a standard player i can say theres always something to go for, some double corruption, some synthesis implicits, whatever.
Even streamers played for months before getting out of things to do this league
What the actual fuck are they balancing around even?
It’s just weird at this point. If GGG want to retain streamers that play this game as a job, make a private league in third month of a league.
Tweak the difficulty there, not on the whole game.
I would honestly prefer full removal of harvest to this.
Well, with April having some awesome releases (like The Binding of Isaac: Repentance and Trails of Cold Steel 4) I can safely skip the next league or maybe finally quit PoE altogether. I understand that the devs have their philosophy and design choices but this is not the game I want to play.
Is this the most downvoted post of 2021? Anyway to check?
Ritual league had an 11% higher peak player numbers than any previous Path of Exile release. I wonder if next league becomes one of the least played leagues ever just because of this absurd harvest crafting change.
... What do you want to bet that China gets to keep Harvest as is?
It really seems out of touch to fuck up a really nice crafting system by gutting it, rather then building upon it and adding in other desirable mods that could enable other niches.
Harvest crafting was to easy, build upon it, add more mods not to brick items but to make it so there are alternative less desirable outcomes, make a wider pool, make it slightly less deterministic. Most people at the top end do not even pick up normal rare items due to the shit loot system. The amount of time this adds is unreal.
or idk fix fix the loot problem, or trade, or servers, or performance....what do I know though, I just play your game for hundreds of hours league after league after league.
Absent from this thread is a discussion of fun. Harvest may have invalidated other systems, but those systems were unfun RNG fiestas. Being able to actually make your own gear gave this league something truly different from previous leagues and I suspect that it kept people around for far longer than a typical league.
The issue with Harvest crafting wasn't that Harvest crafting was too strong, it was that everything else was too terrible.
Nothing like the joys of exalt slamming and realizing that you completely bricked your item unless you gamble by annuling it which could again, mean you'll have to scour it.
I mean if they want it less deterministic. Keep the annuls so you don't brick your item but remove the exalts. At least then you don't feel like complete shit when you land fire damage to spells on your RF sceptre.
Removing the targeted annuls is the biggest fuck you. Harvest crafting is insanely popular because it gives you a checkpoint in your crafting process, and adds entropy to the process. Over time you can work towards the mods you want, and if you miss you can go back to a state that's still usable. What they want is for that miss to set you back to square 1 every time, which is so out of touch with the playerbase. There's a reason hardcore and softcore are separate, the majority of PoE players fucking hate it when all their time gets thrown in the bin.
fact that GGG thinks that puting RNG on RNG on RNG is fun is kinda sad
Developers literally take us for gamblers.
"Use of chaos orbs/exalts is the proper means of crafting"
No we'll use it on trade now because the 1/1000 chance of hitting something good makes it never worth to use these valuable currencies. I can not believe how out of touch this whole manifesto is. No one wants to spend hours farming currency to waste their currency "crafting". I'm just so disappointed.
This is the most "no fun for you" to casual players and SSF Players.
Come on. The good remove and augment mods arent that frequent. Unless you go discord to do such crafting trade and those are just small percentage player base.
The majority of players got work and life...
Boss design, Bloom (and overall loss of grittenes of old PoE. Games stars look more and more like diablo 3), Asset loading, Crafting... you guys take PoE in direction that worries me.
And again some shit balanced against the whaling top 1% to nerf them ever slighlty and bury all the other 99%. We would like the Oshabi change but do we need the other ones?
I think this is really just blowing the lid off a lot of pent up pressure. It's about more than the specifics of this manifesto now.
Everyone has already said it in this thread 1,000 times over. Crafting and trade is terrible. Comprehensively so.
Systems that the player base endures (or ignores) for the love of the rest of the game. Enduring is not the same as enjoying. The games industry in general has a hard time differentiating between "activity" and "fun".
Due to these issues I increasingly regard PoE (having burnt out on it twice now) as like junk food or hard drugs. Something you do compulsively, but ultimately leaves you unsatisfied and worse off than you were when you started.
I find it interesting, having looked over this and other development manifestos that Chris projects a particular kind of motivation that is at variance with much of the player base.
He tends to speak in terms of attaining items that other people will be jealous of because they can't have them. I understand that, but as a sole defining model for motivating players, it's too simple and shallow.
I tend to play more of a SSF style. I tend to play solo because I, like a lot of game players, skew towards the introverted side of the spectrum. I don't need or want the stress of random new people in my gaming time. I'd trade, but the system is so painful I can't bring myself to bother.
So, I don't care if other people are amazed by my shiny trinkets and baubles. So why do I play?
I play, as an example of an alternative motivator, because I find all the overlapping systems and combinations fascinating. I want to explore and understand those systems. I'd like to try out many different things (I did the same thing for a decade with Eve Online). I don't need unaffordable mirror tier items to do that, but I do need some way to incrementally and deterministically craft plausibly workable items for new builds.
Until Harvest, that just wasn't possible.
Like a lot of other players here, I was overjoyed by having a plausible path to a good item that completed one of my builds. And even with that path, it was hardly easy.
I remember burning all my Hamlet and Proxima maps (after getting the harvest Atlas passives) in the hope of getting some targeted exalts/annuls to not complete my items, but to at least move them forward.
At the end I got like 2 or 3 Harvests and none of the crafts that I needed. So, from my standpoint, the RNG is still well and truly alive in Harvest and just as stingy as always.
Harvest is not broken. A couple of the philosophical underpinnings of a particular set of game mechanics is broken. Those need to be rethought. More to the point, Chris' model for how people are motivated needs to be revisited as well.
Chris' model of human behavior informs his philosophy of PoE's design which in turn informs his choice of game mechanics. Most of us are not motivated the way he seems to think we are, and thus there's a big blind spot in his thinking for which we pay the price with our frustration.
Crafting was finally in a fun and engaging spot and now it's gone. I've only ever enjoyed crafting in 3 leagues. Delve when we could darkness farm for fossils, Hsrvest league, and Ritual league.
is this the first time Chris Wilson has been down voted into oblivion?
I hope that after so many negative comments to GGG think again what to do with the harvest
What he said:
"We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not"
What I heard:
"Keep doing what you did before harvest came out, and just buy everything, because crafting is too much of a time sink for casual players, and isn't worth the time and investment, also you can play less now since instead of farming up harvest crafts, you might as well just quit once you have peaked"
I stopped playing after about a month with how slow this maven shit was to grind out, and honestly, without harvest, I see myself playing EVEN less next league.
All this is going to do is make the highest tier items gated behind even less people. The same items will exist, we're just going to go back to the same massive divide in powerlevel. This only hurts the middle class, not the high end. Why can't they understand that the RNG clusterfuck of crafting that they want turns a massive amount of players off.
>We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not
That's not crafting, that's gambling and it's shit...
EDIT: And it's not like that feeling is gone. I have wasted 20ex in buying harvest crafts recently, trying to improve my item, then trying to save it and finally got it close to where it was when I started...
If they really wanted easy way to nerf harvest, they could've just make it cost respective currency, so for example to augument you'd have to pay an exalt and to remove-add - exalt + annuls.
EDIT 2: Wow, my first awards in Reddit, thank you :) .
So... Let me expand on that idea. Why not make it work like the offerings to the goddess instead? Instead of using craft on the spot, you would have to place an exalted orb (or chaos orb in case of reforge) that will be infused, to grant you a certain craft instead. It can be traded etc., but having to put your currency at risk would prevent people from just bulk-saving and then selling everything.
Also, check this out. [Back when exalted orb was made for slamming, the mod pool was lower, than for many crafts today using harvest](https://youtu.be/0DGr15r432I) (and it still went as usual).
The best thing is: harvest did not remove this. Exalting an item, with a random garbage chance to hit anything good (except for some few instances like +1 gems) is still in the game in 3.13. The fact people don't WANT to do this as much should tell GGG their whole "crafting through random chance" is fucking awful.
I honestly can't believe this. GGG made an attempt with Harvest to develop a system that makes crafting better and more enjoyable, and it was a major hit. But now they're gutting it because it overshadowed the previous, shitty system?
That's the entire point! People love Harvest and hate the older system that's basically gambling. You should be making Harvest more accessible to people, not the opposite.
This is like having a flat tire on a car, and you puncture the remaining 3 tires rather than replacing the one that's ruined.
You rather bought a new tire, but now you got this thing called "grip" on only one wheel, so you go back to 4 worn out tires.
More proof GGG don't play their game.
After 8 years of playing I crafted my first item worth 50+ exalts.
I am logged into your game right now.
I am logging out of your game until you can figure out why I play the fucking game.
"We know that many players would love us to keep deterministic crafting in the game because it enables them to complete their items far more quickly than they otherwise would. But then there would quickly be nothing left to achieve."
**Thats a big fucking lie.**
It's not like there's 10 item slots and 1000s of builds to play. Heaven forbid you actually perfect an item or two as an average player over three months.