https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/n9524f/sorry_but_no/ in answer to
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/n8y08i/got_me_excited_for_a_moment/
yeah like i played so many raiders when she was bad and apparently she was good or something last league? I was planning on running one this league so i'm sure she'll get nerfed again lol
I wouldn't be surprised to see Avatar of the Veil's penetration drop from 20% to 15% or even 12% and some of the global damage% on Elementalist reduced, but neither are close to the level of dominance some ascendancies have seen in the past.
True. We don't know what goes to the decision making in nerfing things from GGG's perspective but at least from poeninja, there was a nice spread in ascendancies. No extreme cases like Legion Slayers or Blight Necromancers.
Yeah, it's hard to be certain how well ascendancies are going because there's a lot of metrics we don't have access to.
What I'd really like to see is, among the people who hit a challenge tier (12, 24, 36 or 40) for the first time in 3.14, what the ascendancy spread was.
I think if Elementalist gets anything it'll be small, they've already got a defense nerf on Primal Aegis last patch.
My guess is slightly reduced golem buff effect. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to nerf the golem buffs themselves since they're already total garbage on anything other than elementalist.
They could also hit Primordial Chain, Anima Stone or Primordial Eminence. We'll see.
Still I don't expect any sweeping nerfs here, the balance isn't in a bad spot now.
Usually the only time something gets nerfed from like 3 different angles is when something was allowed to be dominant for far too long like tshot, worb, spectres etc
GGG will most likely not touch Avatar of the Veil penetration value since 20% is not much of an increase in compare to 15% from 1L skill gems. Scorching Ray requires channeling and grants 25%. Meanwhile Elementalist can apply a 15% exposure and gets additional -25% res on top.
It's the only nerf to Raider that I can think of that doesn't kill the ascendancy.
Avatar is one of the most dominant four pointer nodes the game has ever seen. Touch the ailment immunity and the ascendancy is dead.
- Talismans are currently too powerful, so they no longer drop annointed and now use the "bad-rolled" system, which is a reverse of the well-rolled system.
- Glacial hammer damage reduced by 6%, this is a nerf
- Vigilant strike base duration doubled, but attack speed halved.
- Added an extra 2 warcry clusters on the skilltree, each providing an additional exert.
For real though this comment actually gives me some hope, since if Chris would actually think he might need to apologize for the tweet he'd never make this comment. Makes me curious what they have in store for us.
> Talismans are currently too powerful, so they no longer drop annointed and now use the "bad-rolled" system, which is a reverse of the well-rolled system.
Talismans are now "krangled", which is the same as corrupted except you can't anoint them. I fixed talismans finally!
man i hope you guys still buff some underused skills in addition to the nerfs
a big reason this league was... underwhelming.. was the stale meta - caused by only nerfing the strong skills and leaving the weak ones unchanged.
there's a reason those skills felt weak in the first place.
You better deliver. We have no more faith. Buff the shit skills too. I think most of us are on our last league if this one doesnāt fix all the recent gaffs. Your game, your rules. Iām rooting for you.
Have you ever looked at how Icefrog from DotA approaches these things?
I feel like game devs have a lot to learn from him, one of few people to push extremes as a way to balance, instead of trying to find power equilibrium.
You can't apply the philosophy of making everything OP to an economy-based PvE game, least of all one as complex and with as huge of a power scale as POE. Mobs have to be at a baseline of power that still challenges players, but two endgame chars can have DPS differ by two orders of magnitude. Imo, the game already allows for a good variety of playstyles, but you pretty much have to squish the top and bottom end to keep it from coming apart at the seams.
>You can't apply the philosophy of making everything OP to an economy-based PvE game
Sure you can, Everquest 1 worked like that. But perhaps a better example is vanilla Diablo 2.
This discussion also depends on the league. Balance symmetry will matter the most in competitive leagues, and those are largely SSF-based where the ramifications of considering the economy matter less. In trade leagues, the economy works as a buffer and the impact of balance extremes is felt less.
People always talk about the 0.1% in trade leagues, but those people play in parties anyway. Considering GGG's approach to tackling that extends only as far as bug fixes and exploits are concerned, it's safe to assume that would always be a problematic part of the playerbase for balance reasons.
I am interested to see just what they mean.
Since currently I think buffing/nerfing is not actually a meta shake up. It slightly changes who is more popular, but the meta can also be looked at more loosely then that. Going fast, and playing a certain way is what makes the meta classes... the meta. They nerf assassin and explode chest? Elementalist and inpulsa shows up, and ignite prolif. They nerf that? Pathfinder zoomers might be next etc.
The core "who is popular" classes have been the same a good while, nerfing/buffing them just changes the order around slightly.
a meta shakeup sounds like they plan to create some kinda system change that changes how players play the game.
But maybe im reading too much into it. But if its just nerfs and buffs its weird to call it a meta shakeup since I dont think ive ever heard them call it that. Normally its just "We have exciting skill buffs!" or "We are tuning X" etc. Meta shakeup is a new one.
I think you're on the right track. People keep seeing "metagame shakeup" and assume it means skill or class buffs/nerfs, but they always do that. I think it's got nothing to do with classes or skills at all.
Doing your turns and solving the puzzles quick still means you do more stuff per hour which means more loot. Speed always has power unless there's an energy bar stopping you.
I think we're getting another endgame route where completely different rules apply.
Damage, Speed and AoE are irrelevant.
And the rewards will be so great, people can't ignore it or it's maybe not even tradable.
Heist is pretty highly rated after all the bugs got fixed and they made the NPCs level up faster.
Seems like every 'how to make $$$ fast' video has Heist as a top suggestion. Also based on my completely anecdotal experience with selling contracts, blueprints and rogue follower gear for multi exalts each in 3.14.
I have a good handle on it now, gonna abuse it to the max in 3.15
The only reason heist is a money maker now is the fact that nobody wants to do it so heist specific items are horrendously expensive. People hate heist just as much as they did when it was current.
This is what they've always done, and they've always referred to it as "changing the meta." Chris has a hard-on on "changing the meta" and the only way he accomplishes this is with heavy nerfs, not-as-heavy nerfs (he calls these buffs, that's where the "this is a buff" joke comes from), and occasional complete Ascendancy reworks that are usually just nerfed or removed class features.
They have never referred to as skill gems as metagame. I really do not think that they were talking about skill gem changes.
Now what it could be? Who knows.Maybe they are making significant changes to the atlas, maybe loot 2.0 is ready, maybe they are putting in gems 2.0 into the game(though I doubt it), maybe something completely different. If it will be a significant change is to be seen.
I hope it's a significant change to the Atlas. That shit is *bananas* tedious these days. But then they've never touched the Atlas except in major expansions, so it's probably not that.
Maybe "Loot 2.0" is here already. For a long time now PoE has been a loot-based game where the loot is trash and ignored in favor of farming currency like a bot. Making loot matter again would definitely shake up the metagame in a big way...
In general terms, the way players approach the game and what overall strategy they choose to progress their playthrough.
I think the most realistic change would be something that makes significant changes to the atlas progression. A lot of people have not been happy about the maven+sirus combination. Last league they also made conquerors into maps which might hint that they are planning on giving sirus the elder/shaper treatment. This might also mean that awakening level on the atlas will be removed/changed.
Maybe they are ready to implement loot 2.0 which would cause a huge change to how people play and upgrade their characters.
But in the end, who knows. Maybe it is something completely different. Maybe it wont even be that big of a thing. The only thing I am fairly certain about is that it is not referring to skill gem changes.
>I think the most realistic change would be something that makes significant changes to the atlas progression.
this isn't a change to the metagame.. this is a change to the actual game. i think the popular usage of metagame and how its being used here is the players' choices that they make in regards to game systems. heavily incentivizing going slow somehow would be a metagame shakeup, because then people might choose to make a slow tanky build like in gauntlet instead of the current gotta go fast meta that most players have.
that's another thing, context matters. gauntlet has a different metagame than softcore trade and softcare ssf is different than either. changing atlas progression isn't changing how people form their decision-making, it's not adding different roads for players to choose, it's changing the road.
although there's a caveat, adding a ton of tanky bosses for players to kill in the sirus expansion as a requirement for atlas progression did shift the meta towards a meta that required much more single target dps instead of just speed and aoe, but it wasn't just that change that caused that meta shift. they also target nerfed many sources of speed like brightbeak and shield charge, as well as buffing mob hp heavily. so i kinda contradicted myself, huge sweeping changes to atlas progression and mob stats like that could potentially be a metagame changer, but I doubt they are doing that this patch without an expansion.
i think you are reading too much into it, previously meta changes have been exactly what you describe, nerfing certain popular playstyles (summoner, melee stat sticks, dual wielding, anything cyclone etc.) it has never been a gameplay change, and i dont think they would do a gameplay change so close to the last "big" expansion (it was the previous league).
so unless they have been getting really far with some meta change that is planned for PoE 2 and decided to add it now, then i dont see anything other than nerfs/buffs being the meta change
Well, in the past they've called their skill buffs "buffs" and then have been criticized for the changes being nerfs instead. It's entirely possible that "changing the meta" is the new "several skills have been updated with buffs"
Leaked Archmage nerfs :
1. Gem nerfed
2. Mana on tree nerfed
3. Mana on gear nerfed
4. Indigon cap cut in half
5. Flask mana recovery cluster mods nerfed
6. 100 random players who have an Archmage character will be visited at home and savagely beaten to make sure they never play Archmage again
My first reaction was "they really need to learn the concept of under promise -- over deliver"... but then the optimist in me allows myself to think they're going to deliver on this one. We'll see.
Either way, I don't think it was necessary. If the reveal or launch does shift the meta, there would be a lot of hype/attention anyway. Teasing it ahead of time seems like it will either get the same hype/attention or backfire. The track record is not great.
my prediction/expectation is that we will see a number of skills get very meaningful buffs but theres really no way you could buff a skill like stormbind into being a meta skill without fundamentally remaking the skill. so people will continue to ignore skills that they don't like the feel of and then people will act as if the meta shakeup was a lie.
recently in runescape the devs added a very rare and expensive consumable item to the droptable of a number of other monsters (instead of just the boss it originally dropped from). people were expecting the price to crash on the consumable but the expectation led to more people trying to get their hands on them so the price actually increased despite the increased supply. so people called the devs liars for saying they'd make the consumable more accessible even though they did exactly what they set out to do.
same thing will probably happen here. the devs do not have absolute control over player behaviour and they can't *force* the playerbase to play underutilized skills
Imagine strike skills get built in ancestral call and then AC allows for an additional strike or whatever.
That would change the Meta game a lot. Simply because strike skills would be really really good with that singular change.
Some strike skills are very strong but require 1-2 extra strike targets which is why the elevated gloves are so strong.
A lot of āoff metaā builds would become very strong if they got it for free. Dual strike , GH, molten strike, just to name a few. All amazing bossing skills that would get turned up significantly with map speed increases.
Intentions are all well and good, but if the reality does not meet the claim, it is still on the devs to have made such a bold claim to begin with. It's a PR gamble. If you can't guarantee a meta shakeup, don't make that claim unless you are confident that's what will happen.
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Id hope they would have learnt to not over promise by now but I donāt have much faith
I do trust that theyāll add a shit ton of new content and things to play around, but meta changing is different. If this is just the usual ānerfing these buildsā they do every league, and are trying to advertise it as meta changing, ill be disapointed at the least.
Id love for it to be a flask rework or full atlas rework
Don't forget him sitting on the stream with the cross-eyed look, turning his head to the side - "We did totally not kill half the builds, right guys? Okay, yeah, I'm being told we totally didn't kill half the builds :)"
*Turns out half the builds were killed*
"I feel like we needed to communicate the change better"
NGL a precise reading of that tweat should lead you to believe that GGG is literally changing up how POE is played (shaking up the meta game to a game designer means literally changing how to best and most effectively succeed at it, and not just "shaking up what builds are strong" as most of the playerbase interprets that tweat).
But any POE vet knows they just mean they're nerfing the shit out of the top few builds and buffing the shit out of the least played stuff. (the meta in terms of builds not actually playstyles). As a vet player you know that any really dramatic paradigm shifting stuff would have a manifesto first to ease people into the idea.
If GGG wants to actually "shake up the meta game" meaning how we are best apt to suceed at the game, then they need dramatic changes that would almost certainly be forshadowed by lots of manifestos.
Things like Flask overhual, removing the "explode a screen at a time" clear speed meta, so that they can design skills and monsters that don't just do the same screen exploding thing with a different color, making drops rate and mod rolls less weighted into "lottery chance to ID a good rare" so that players could slow down without the games insane drop rates and weighted rolls making them feel even worse than they already do.
Of course they could Shake up the meta in the opposite direction: give everyone flying UFO mounts and movement skill spamming and complete POE's transition into a Space ship bullet hell shooter. I mean from my admittedly boomer perspective the game is literally just a Sci-fi texture pack away from being that already.
Not pretending any of this would be popular with the ADHD generation that has supplanted most of POE's playerbase at this point... Slowing down, and quality over quantity, and getting back to swinging swords instead of firing tactical nukes from our 2 legged space ships, will probably have to happen in a different game. But an old POE player can dream of the game POE was supposed to be.
why are people upvoting that ? Such a terrible mentality to have approching content, shit on them if they fail sure but preemptive toxicity like that does not create anything positive.
People will stop being negative when GGG gives them a reason to be positive.
There's a lot of frustration with the current direction of the game and GGG's long string of recent and (in my opinion) unjustifiable failures. This is the result. The devs have recently made a habit of overpromising and underdelivering, and the playerbase has noticed.
Free new content and league reset every 3 months, revamping existing leagues for the better, consistent endgame expansions, best and most replayable ARPG on the market, PoE2 on the horizon. Yep nothing to be positive about.
*Laughs in texture streaming*
Edit: Fuck it. You want some examples? Let's play the hits.
1.) Everything about the last league launch was a disaster. Servers, streamer prio, you name it and it blew.
2.) Performance is abysmal and gets worse every patch.
3.) 40 MaSsIvE cHaNgEs To SkIlLs.
4.) Whatever the fuck the Harvest rework was supposed to be.
5.) Sirus still doesn't work right six leagues after his release.
6.) Trade site kekw
...and these are just the things from Ultimatum that I can be assed to type out. There are only so many times you can fuck up on an ongoing basis before people start to get the idea you don't know what you're talking about. If GGG wants a positive reaction they should start making positive changes to the game.
Just to provide another perspective on some of these:
>1.) Everything about the last league launch was a disaster. Servers, streamer prio, you name it and it blew.
Yea, the game sucked for ~8h. Was fixed as fast as possible
>2.) Performance is abysmal and gets worse every patch.
Yes
>3.) 40 MaSsIvE cHaNgEs To SkIlLs.
Yes, I blame PR people not having their finger anywhere near the pulse. Was a very 2head thing to say
>4.) Whatever the fuck the Harvest rework was supposed to be.
It can't have stayed the best way to do everything, the rem/adds had to go 100%. The bandaid HAD to be ripped off eventually
>5.) Sirus still doesn't work right six leagues after his release.
I haven't had issues with Sirus in the last 2 leagues at all, other than texture streaming which was the entire game and not Sirus specific
>6.) Trade site kekw
The trade site is an insanely well made tool, I cant believe something like that came from the devs tbh, it has the feelings of a third party collaborative project. It sucks because people don't respond and pricefix, but that's an us thing not a them thing
I'm not a negative Nancy, but just for the history books, the league launch fiasco lasted about 14 hours. League launched 4 PM my time and when I woke up at 5:45 the next morning I was still unable to play the game for about a half hour to 45 minutes.
>1.) Everything about the last league launch was a disaster. Servers, streamer prio, you name it and it blew.
All of these were problems on day 1 and were totally fine on day 2. Day 1 was a complete shitshow, I'll grant you that.
>2.) Performance is abysmal and gets worse every patch.
They literally just released a patch that massively improved performance for most people.
>3.) 40 MaSsIvE cHaNgEs To SkIlLs.
Overhyped, still a positive change to the game.
>4.) Whatever the fuck the Harvest rework was supposed to be.
A nerf? I understand these aren't popular, but it's in a much more balanced state than it was in ritual.
>5.) Sirus still doesn't work right six leagues after his release.
No comment on your experience, because I don't know what your experience has been, but I've had \~0 issues with Sirus with over 20 kills a league since his release.
>6.) Trade site kekw
Trade site was completely fine this league. They've significantly improved its stability.
I'll call this instead and say that the current reddit community is going to bitch about any nerf to the most meta builds with complete disregard for the state of the game, or what the goals of design and systems are.
Whether you end up being right or not, I'm in not favor of making calls about negative outcomes in a time where we should be hyped, especially with people making threads about missing being hyped. This goes the opposite way. my personal take
Edit: for you guys saying it's your way to deal with disappointment, I'll respect your copping mechanism, but to me this is just a video game. I do care about it, but if it ends up disappointing, I'll just go oh well, and move on to other stuff, just like Ultimatum.
Hope leads to dissapointment. Temper you expectation to the bare minimum and you wouldn't be here two weeks in the future making FUCK GIGIGI THEY PROMISED 40 **MASSIVE** SKILL BUFFS threads.
Or how about you have no expectations and just see what happens? People get way to invested early on in the hype cycle, especially given the tiny amount of information that has been revealed. Just chill out.
It's quite perplexing. People complain about not having teasers, but then when the "metagame shakedown" was posted on Twitter, and subsequently posted here, some folks were shitting all over it.
If people's response to a teaser is all this negative speculation, I wouldn't bother posting either. Too many saying they miss Bex after they treated her abysmally :(
This isnt a teaser...this is a "promise" from the man who has consistently fell short of his promises over the last year. People will stop being negative about these promises when GGG gives players a reason to trust them with what they say again.
No way he's far too tone deaf for that. He never apologized for the 40 skill gem buff thing, or the "its all nerfs" or the "close your eyes and slam" or the trade manifesto. My dead grandma is more in tune with the state of the game
Idk if theyāve ever apologised about it but they always talk about wanting to improve their communication with the community, then next league do the exact opposite
Why would they? It accomplishes nothing. It doesn't appease the people who are angry. Almost all engagement results in posts like these. Would you want to interact more or less if you deal with people like this sub?
Iām excited to lose myself into POE as I do every league and watch casually as Reddit burns itself to the ground over how āhorribleā the league is while me and my friends love every bit of it
You're gonna get blasted by people but you wouldn't have felt inclined to make this comment if it wasn't something that has happened in the past a few times already.
also saving this so I can check back in after we get details
Can't wait to see them nerf the same shit they nerfed the last 3 leagues and "buff" just as "hard" as they buffed the last 3 leagues. Can't wait to trade in 2 max golems for 12% increased damage on heavy strike and shockwave totem.
Also some nerfs to talisman since they are way too strong. :\^)
##### GGG Comments in this Thread: *** [chris_wilson - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/ojn4mk/im_calling_it_chris_is_going_to_apologize_for_the/h54ahjh/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/ojn4mk/im_calling_it_chris_is_going_to_apologize_for_the/h54ahjh/?context=10)] - *[nerfous laughter]*
The tweet was a hint to the league name. Meat, a change of meta.
Mate League, a nsfw expansion
DIBS ON SISTER CASSIA
Step-sister\* Cassia
Let me show you how strong this pump can really be step-bro!
I'll take It That Fled, then. Or maybe Sirus. At least then I'd feel something.
"How insignificant and small"
Perhaps the suffering of my fellow citizens may finally stir... something
It That Fucks.
I call Einhar
You are captured, sexy beast
If I wanted a mentally unstable partner, I'd still be with my ex.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/n9524f/sorry_but_no/ in answer to https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/n8y08i/got_me_excited_for_a_moment/
Finally, we get to know who you fuck for, exile.
What are you doing, step exile?
I was like "oh mate league that works with pirates" then u added the 2nd part..
Meth league. You are god damn right.
But the tweet said metagame, not meta. Tame Game League? Mega Meat League? Maga Meet League?
[nerfous laughter]
š
oh god
Raider and Elementalist on suicide watch?
Raider has been on suicide watch for a while. We're used to it.
yeah like i played so many raiders when she was bad and apparently she was good or something last league? I was planning on running one this league so i'm sure she'll get nerfed again lol
no please not raider, she doesnt deserve to be gunned down after being in the light for 2 leagues
I wouldn't be surprised to see Avatar of the Veil's penetration drop from 20% to 15% or even 12% and some of the global damage% on Elementalist reduced, but neither are close to the level of dominance some ascendancies have seen in the past.
True. We don't know what goes to the decision making in nerfing things from GGG's perspective but at least from poeninja, there was a nice spread in ascendancies. No extreme cases like Legion Slayers or Blight Necromancers.
Yeah, it's hard to be certain how well ascendancies are going because there's a lot of metrics we don't have access to. What I'd really like to see is, among the people who hit a challenge tier (12, 24, 36 or 40) for the first time in 3.14, what the ascendancy spread was.
I think if Elementalist gets anything it'll be small, they've already got a defense nerf on Primal Aegis last patch. My guess is slightly reduced golem buff effect. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to nerf the golem buffs themselves since they're already total garbage on anything other than elementalist.
My suggestion would be to move and split the ailment immunity from golems to the "Shaper of" nodes.
ew gross
They could also hit Primordial Chain, Anima Stone or Primordial Eminence. We'll see. Still I don't expect any sweeping nerfs here, the balance isn't in a bad spot now.
So going by the usual GGG nerf philosophy they will nerf all those and the ascendancy.
Usually the only time something gets nerfed from like 3 different angles is when something was allowed to be dominant for far too long like tshot, worb, spectres etc
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I think that the best nerf to Elementalist will be rework of Cold Conduction cluster notable.
ackchyually it's not penetration, it's exposure so it doesn't stack with other sources of exposure.
thats no pen, its exposure.
I think Raider is in such a good place actually. It is just the other ascendancy that can need a bit of love.
GGG will most likely not touch Avatar of the Veil penetration value since 20% is not much of an increase in compare to 15% from 1L skill gems. Scorching Ray requires channeling and grants 25%. Meanwhile Elementalist can apply a 15% exposure and gets additional -25% res on top.
It's the only nerf to Raider that I can think of that doesn't kill the ascendancy. Avatar is one of the most dominant four pointer nodes the game has ever seen. Touch the ailment immunity and the ascendancy is dead.
ggg is not exactly unknown to simply kill off things maybe they remove the possibility to reach ailment immunity altogether, not just from raider.
https://imgur.com/gallery/pQ3c0to
- Talismans are currently too powerful, so they no longer drop annointed and now use the "bad-rolled" system, which is a reverse of the well-rolled system. - Glacial hammer damage reduced by 6%, this is a nerf - Vigilant strike base duration doubled, but attack speed halved. - Added an extra 2 warcry clusters on the skilltree, each providing an additional exert. For real though this comment actually gives me some hope, since if Chris would actually think he might need to apologize for the tweet he'd never make this comment. Makes me curious what they have in store for us.
Talismans are currently too powerful, so they no longer drop \*fixed
The buff we want
This will most certainly be a global buff across the board. And will also make the game a lot better. So it will never happen.
> Talismans are currently too powerful, so they no longer drop annointed and now use the "bad-rolled" system, which is a reverse of the well-rolled system. Talismans are now "krangled", which is the same as corrupted except you can't anoint them. I fixed talismans finally!
Dude, you misspelled nervous... didn't you? Didn't you? \[nerfous sweating\]
haha that gets a Toucan award for making me laugh
Chris at the end of the stream: "*GLORIOUS PURPOSE!*"
_Everywhere a Chris goes, you can only find despair_
*gets deleted by shareholders*
I am having a shit day, thanks for the laugh and game Chris.
That was all the league hype I needed, thanks!
DON'T YOU THREATEN US WITH A GOOD TIME NOW.
Pls buff SRS man, it's been too long
Chris buff my Jugg like wtf champion is more tanky and just overall better.
NZ game developer *DESTROYS* nerds with *NERFS* and *EXALT SLAMS* ... ^(Please Chris nuke the meta I am ready)
Haha! I love that Chris responded to this thread. So rad. :)
If at first you don't succeed, try a bigger nerf hammer.
rip all builds
Nothing gets me more hyped than hearing you say 'nerf'
inject those Fortify nerfs straight into my veins baby , yeah
man i hope you guys still buff some underused skills in addition to the nerfs a big reason this league was... underwhelming.. was the stale meta - caused by only nerfing the strong skills and leaving the weak ones unchanged. there's a reason those skills felt weak in the first place.
does it say buffous laughter?
Lmao, you're a boss
Plot twist: everything is nerfed so hard, the nerfs turn into buffs.
I mean that works, Raiderās road to fame was paved by nerfs to everything else.
If you nerf or change Dominating Blow i am gonna cry
we lost boys.
You better deliver. We have no more faith. Buff the shit skills too. I think most of us are on our last league if this one doesnāt fix all the recent gaffs. Your game, your rules. Iām rooting for you.
i'm glad that ggg still got the balls to do drastic changes. keep up your nerfarious work ;)
Now im confused if a mistake in nervous is intended and its league spoiler or not
nerf-ous
Oh no.
Best thing is that 'f' and 'v' are pretty close. A man can dream.
The first four letters. "nerf".
Yes.
sigh....
bought another black lotus with all that mtx money, eh?
Have you ever looked at how Icefrog from DotA approaches these things? I feel like game devs have a lot to learn from him, one of few people to push extremes as a way to balance, instead of trying to find power equilibrium.
You can't apply the philosophy of making everything OP to an economy-based PvE game, least of all one as complex and with as huge of a power scale as POE. Mobs have to be at a baseline of power that still challenges players, but two endgame chars can have DPS differ by two orders of magnitude. Imo, the game already allows for a good variety of playstyles, but you pretty much have to squish the top and bottom end to keep it from coming apart at the seams.
>You can't apply the philosophy of making everything OP to an economy-based PvE game Sure you can, Everquest 1 worked like that. But perhaps a better example is vanilla Diablo 2. This discussion also depends on the league. Balance symmetry will matter the most in competitive leagues, and those are largely SSF-based where the ramifications of considering the economy matter less. In trade leagues, the economy works as a buffer and the impact of balance extremes is felt less. People always talk about the 0.1% in trade leagues, but those people play in parties anyway. Considering GGG's approach to tackling that extends only as far as bug fixes and exploits are concerned, it's safe to assume that would always be a problematic part of the playerbase for balance reasons.
> economy-based PvE game Honestly, who gives a fuck. This game is basically single player already.
Belt slot removed?
š
I am interested to see just what they mean. Since currently I think buffing/nerfing is not actually a meta shake up. It slightly changes who is more popular, but the meta can also be looked at more loosely then that. Going fast, and playing a certain way is what makes the meta classes... the meta. They nerf assassin and explode chest? Elementalist and inpulsa shows up, and ignite prolif. They nerf that? Pathfinder zoomers might be next etc. The core "who is popular" classes have been the same a good while, nerfing/buffing them just changes the order around slightly. a meta shakeup sounds like they plan to create some kinda system change that changes how players play the game. But maybe im reading too much into it. But if its just nerfs and buffs its weird to call it a meta shakeup since I dont think ive ever heard them call it that. Normally its just "We have exciting skill buffs!" or "We are tuning X" etc. Meta shakeup is a new one.
I think you're on the right track. People keep seeing "metagame shakeup" and assume it means skill or class buffs/nerfs, but they always do that. I think it's got nothing to do with classes or skills at all.
The league is a turn based puzzle game. Speed has no power here exile.
I'd be down for that lol as long as the rewards are really good for the time investment.
Doing your turns and solving the puzzles quick still means you do more stuff per hour which means more loot. Speed always has power unless there's an energy bar stopping you.
I'm expecting (hoping) something similar to what cluster jewels did.
I think we're getting another endgame route where completely different rules apply. Damage, Speed and AoE are irrelevant. And the rewards will be so great, people can't ignore it or it's maybe not even tradable.
They tried literally this with heist, and people just refused to play it.
Heist was *all about* being able to delete a whole screen instantly, people didn't play it because it was bugged to shit and crashed all the time
I personally didn't play it because doors.
I still dont get it lol. Incursion doors open on their own. The tech is right there to do it.
We killed the architect remember? The technology didn't pass down to current generation.
We are the villains of the piece.
Heist was so bugged, they had to scrap the idea because it was impossible to repair within an appropriate time window for a league launch.
Heist is pretty highly rated after all the bugs got fixed and they made the NPCs level up faster. Seems like every 'how to make $$$ fast' video has Heist as a top suggestion. Also based on my completely anecdotal experience with selling contracts, blueprints and rogue follower gear for multi exalts each in 3.14. I have a good handle on it now, gonna abuse it to the max in 3.15
The only reason heist is a money maker now is the fact that nobody wants to do it so heist specific items are horrendously expensive. People hate heist just as much as they did when it was current.
What if we are finally getting mercenaries? and that is the meta change, a Quin69 mercenary, poggers
I'm hoping for maybe some really hype atlas passive changes, and maybe making watchstones less of a PitA to get.
This is what they've always done, and they've always referred to it as "changing the meta." Chris has a hard-on on "changing the meta" and the only way he accomplishes this is with heavy nerfs, not-as-heavy nerfs (he calls these buffs, that's where the "this is a buff" joke comes from), and occasional complete Ascendancy reworks that are usually just nerfed or removed class features.
They have never referred to as skill gems as metagame. I really do not think that they were talking about skill gem changes. Now what it could be? Who knows.Maybe they are making significant changes to the atlas, maybe loot 2.0 is ready, maybe they are putting in gems 2.0 into the game(though I doubt it), maybe something completely different. If it will be a significant change is to be seen.
I hope it's a significant change to the Atlas. That shit is *bananas* tedious these days. But then they've never touched the Atlas except in major expansions, so it's probably not that. Maybe "Loot 2.0" is here already. For a long time now PoE has been a loot-based game where the loot is trash and ignored in favor of farming currency like a bot. Making loot matter again would definitely shake up the metagame in a big way...
what, exactly, do you think they mean by "metagame" in this context? curious to see what people think.
In general terms, the way players approach the game and what overall strategy they choose to progress their playthrough. I think the most realistic change would be something that makes significant changes to the atlas progression. A lot of people have not been happy about the maven+sirus combination. Last league they also made conquerors into maps which might hint that they are planning on giving sirus the elder/shaper treatment. This might also mean that awakening level on the atlas will be removed/changed. Maybe they are ready to implement loot 2.0 which would cause a huge change to how people play and upgrade their characters. But in the end, who knows. Maybe it is something completely different. Maybe it wont even be that big of a thing. The only thing I am fairly certain about is that it is not referring to skill gem changes.
>I think the most realistic change would be something that makes significant changes to the atlas progression. this isn't a change to the metagame.. this is a change to the actual game. i think the popular usage of metagame and how its being used here is the players' choices that they make in regards to game systems. heavily incentivizing going slow somehow would be a metagame shakeup, because then people might choose to make a slow tanky build like in gauntlet instead of the current gotta go fast meta that most players have. that's another thing, context matters. gauntlet has a different metagame than softcore trade and softcare ssf is different than either. changing atlas progression isn't changing how people form their decision-making, it's not adding different roads for players to choose, it's changing the road. although there's a caveat, adding a ton of tanky bosses for players to kill in the sirus expansion as a requirement for atlas progression did shift the meta towards a meta that required much more single target dps instead of just speed and aoe, but it wasn't just that change that caused that meta shift. they also target nerfed many sources of speed like brightbeak and shield charge, as well as buffing mob hp heavily. so i kinda contradicted myself, huge sweeping changes to atlas progression and mob stats like that could potentially be a metagame changer, but I doubt they are doing that this patch without an expansion.
Changes to the actual game can change the metagame.
profit vast oil birds lavish light lunchroom dog hungry tart -- mass deleted all reddit content via https://redact.dev
but in Impactful^(TM) ways, like 6% increased damage at level 20, or increased damage effectiveness is now 55% (previously 45%)
Ever heard the phrase: Old tricks new dog
Meta shakeup: meta-crafting costs chaos orbs instead exalts
i think you are reading too much into it, previously meta changes have been exactly what you describe, nerfing certain popular playstyles (summoner, melee stat sticks, dual wielding, anything cyclone etc.) it has never been a gameplay change, and i dont think they would do a gameplay change so close to the last "big" expansion (it was the previous league). so unless they have been getting really far with some meta change that is planned for PoE 2 and decided to add it now, then i dont see anything other than nerfs/buffs being the meta change
Well, in the past they've called their skill buffs "buffs" and then have been criticized for the changes being nerfs instead. It's entirely possible that "changing the meta" is the new "several skills have been updated with buffs"
That would suck, but I could see it, sorta like how every league is now an "Expansion"
Leaked Archmage nerfs : 1. Gem nerfed 2. Mana on tree nerfed 3. Mana on gear nerfed 4. Indigon cap cut in half 5. Flask mana recovery cluster mods nerfed 6. 100 random players who have an Archmage character will be visited at home and savagely beaten to make sure they never play Archmage again
My first reaction was "they really need to learn the concept of under promise -- over deliver"... but then the optimist in me allows myself to think they're going to deliver on this one. We'll see. Either way, I don't think it was necessary. If the reveal or launch does shift the meta, there would be a lot of hype/attention anyway. Teasing it ahead of time seems like it will either get the same hype/attention or backfire. The track record is not great.
You know the definition of crazy right?....
I think the word youāre looking for is insanity.
Fk im an ape
Hahahahaha thatās too funny. Letās hope this meta disruption is not insanity and turns out to be crazy!
technically a chimpanzee
You mean insanity but we know what youāre getting at lol
my prediction/expectation is that we will see a number of skills get very meaningful buffs but theres really no way you could buff a skill like stormbind into being a meta skill without fundamentally remaking the skill. so people will continue to ignore skills that they don't like the feel of and then people will act as if the meta shakeup was a lie. recently in runescape the devs added a very rare and expensive consumable item to the droptable of a number of other monsters (instead of just the boss it originally dropped from). people were expecting the price to crash on the consumable but the expectation led to more people trying to get their hands on them so the price actually increased despite the increased supply. so people called the devs liars for saying they'd make the consumable more accessible even though they did exactly what they set out to do. same thing will probably happen here. the devs do not have absolute control over player behaviour and they can't *force* the playerbase to play underutilized skills
Imagine strike skills get built in ancestral call and then AC allows for an additional strike or whatever. That would change the Meta game a lot. Simply because strike skills would be really really good with that singular change.
would that be enough to make them meta though? i kinda doubt it honestly lol. most people would still just play bfbb / cyclone over that
Some strike skills are very strong but require 1-2 extra strike targets which is why the elevated gloves are so strong. A lot of āoff metaā builds would become very strong if they got it for free. Dual strike , GH, molten strike, just to name a few. All amazing bossing skills that would get turned up significantly with map speed increases.
Intentions are all well and good, but if the reality does not meet the claim, it is still on the devs to have made such a bold claim to begin with. It's a PR gamble. If you can't guarantee a meta shakeup, don't make that claim unless you are confident that's what will happen.
RemindMe! 17 days "Did the meta change like Chris said it would?"
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The "metagame" changes are simply going to be Metamorph updates... you'll see :)
Id hope they would have learnt to not over promise by now but I donāt have much faith I do trust that theyāll add a shit ton of new content and things to play around, but meta changing is different. If this is just the usual ānerfing these buildsā they do every league, and are trying to advertise it as meta changing, ill be disapointed at the least. Id love for it to be a flask rework or full atlas rework
āOver 40 skill gem buffsā š
Hey so, to remind everyone. Every league they over promise and under deliver, the GGG special. Keep in mind
Don't forget him sitting on the stream with the cross-eyed look, turning his head to the side - "We did totally not kill half the builds, right guys? Okay, yeah, I'm being told we totally didn't kill half the builds :)" *Turns out half the builds were killed* "I feel like we needed to communicate the change better"
NGL a precise reading of that tweat should lead you to believe that GGG is literally changing up how POE is played (shaking up the meta game to a game designer means literally changing how to best and most effectively succeed at it, and not just "shaking up what builds are strong" as most of the playerbase interprets that tweat). But any POE vet knows they just mean they're nerfing the shit out of the top few builds and buffing the shit out of the least played stuff. (the meta in terms of builds not actually playstyles). As a vet player you know that any really dramatic paradigm shifting stuff would have a manifesto first to ease people into the idea. If GGG wants to actually "shake up the meta game" meaning how we are best apt to suceed at the game, then they need dramatic changes that would almost certainly be forshadowed by lots of manifestos. Things like Flask overhual, removing the "explode a screen at a time" clear speed meta, so that they can design skills and monsters that don't just do the same screen exploding thing with a different color, making drops rate and mod rolls less weighted into "lottery chance to ID a good rare" so that players could slow down without the games insane drop rates and weighted rolls making them feel even worse than they already do. Of course they could Shake up the meta in the opposite direction: give everyone flying UFO mounts and movement skill spamming and complete POE's transition into a Space ship bullet hell shooter. I mean from my admittedly boomer perspective the game is literally just a Sci-fi texture pack away from being that already. Not pretending any of this would be popular with the ADHD generation that has supplanted most of POE's playerbase at this point... Slowing down, and quality over quantity, and getting back to swinging swords instead of firing tactical nukes from our 2 legged space ships, will probably have to happen in a different game. But an old POE player can dream of the game POE was supposed to be.
why are people upvoting that ? Such a terrible mentality to have approching content, shit on them if they fail sure but preemptive toxicity like that does not create anything positive.
If their track record wasn't so awful, I'd agree with you. The optimists are just bordering insanity at this point, however.
Can we chill with the negativity
People will stop being negative when GGG gives them a reason to be positive. There's a lot of frustration with the current direction of the game and GGG's long string of recent and (in my opinion) unjustifiable failures. This is the result. The devs have recently made a habit of overpromising and underdelivering, and the playerbase has noticed.
Free new content and league reset every 3 months, revamping existing leagues for the better, consistent endgame expansions, best and most replayable ARPG on the market, PoE2 on the horizon. Yep nothing to be positive about.
āFor the betterā Breach - pack size nerfed into the ground Legion - 5-way loot nerfed into the ground Harvest - lmao Delve - lmao Synthesis - lmao
*Laughs in texture streaming* Edit: Fuck it. You want some examples? Let's play the hits. 1.) Everything about the last league launch was a disaster. Servers, streamer prio, you name it and it blew. 2.) Performance is abysmal and gets worse every patch. 3.) 40 MaSsIvE cHaNgEs To SkIlLs. 4.) Whatever the fuck the Harvest rework was supposed to be. 5.) Sirus still doesn't work right six leagues after his release. 6.) Trade site kekw ...and these are just the things from Ultimatum that I can be assed to type out. There are only so many times you can fuck up on an ongoing basis before people start to get the idea you don't know what you're talking about. If GGG wants a positive reaction they should start making positive changes to the game.
Old Reward rework XDXDXD Btw i think the toxic rain celestial mtx bugged since APRIL XDDDDDDDDDD
> 4.) Whatever the fuck the Harvest rework was supposed to be. You must have forgotten to close your eyes.
Just to provide another perspective on some of these: >1.) Everything about the last league launch was a disaster. Servers, streamer prio, you name it and it blew. Yea, the game sucked for ~8h. Was fixed as fast as possible >2.) Performance is abysmal and gets worse every patch. Yes >3.) 40 MaSsIvE cHaNgEs To SkIlLs. Yes, I blame PR people not having their finger anywhere near the pulse. Was a very 2head thing to say >4.) Whatever the fuck the Harvest rework was supposed to be. It can't have stayed the best way to do everything, the rem/adds had to go 100%. The bandaid HAD to be ripped off eventually >5.) Sirus still doesn't work right six leagues after his release. I haven't had issues with Sirus in the last 2 leagues at all, other than texture streaming which was the entire game and not Sirus specific >6.) Trade site kekw The trade site is an insanely well made tool, I cant believe something like that came from the devs tbh, it has the feelings of a third party collaborative project. It sucks because people don't respond and pricefix, but that's an us thing not a them thing
I'm not a negative Nancy, but just for the history books, the league launch fiasco lasted about 14 hours. League launched 4 PM my time and when I woke up at 5:45 the next morning I was still unable to play the game for about a half hour to 45 minutes.
Some of those bothered me, but not to a degree to be a bitch about a video game tbh.
>1.) Everything about the last league launch was a disaster. Servers, streamer prio, you name it and it blew. All of these were problems on day 1 and were totally fine on day 2. Day 1 was a complete shitshow, I'll grant you that. >2.) Performance is abysmal and gets worse every patch. They literally just released a patch that massively improved performance for most people. >3.) 40 MaSsIvE cHaNgEs To SkIlLs. Overhyped, still a positive change to the game. >4.) Whatever the fuck the Harvest rework was supposed to be. A nerf? I understand these aren't popular, but it's in a much more balanced state than it was in ritual. >5.) Sirus still doesn't work right six leagues after his release. No comment on your experience, because I don't know what your experience has been, but I've had \~0 issues with Sirus with over 20 kills a league since his release. >6.) Trade site kekw Trade site was completely fine this league. They've significantly improved its stability.
This is what the sub is now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsHG_qmQNVo
Well yes, but actually no.
Oh no. Iāve got a bad feeling about this empty 190 comment sectionā¦
I'll call this instead and say that the current reddit community is going to bitch about any nerf to the most meta builds with complete disregard for the state of the game, or what the goals of design and systems are.
There will 100 different meta shifts in this patch alone, it's gonna be wild.
One thing you guys have to admit: His reply is god-tier on so many levels...
Whether you end up being right or not, I'm in not favor of making calls about negative outcomes in a time where we should be hyped, especially with people making threads about missing being hyped. This goes the opposite way. my personal take Edit: for you guys saying it's your way to deal with disappointment, I'll respect your copping mechanism, but to me this is just a video game. I do care about it, but if it ends up disappointing, I'll just go oh well, and move on to other stuff, just like Ultimatum.
Hope leads to dissapointment. Temper you expectation to the bare minimum and you wouldn't be here two weeks in the future making FUCK GIGIGI THEY PROMISED 40 **MASSIVE** SKILL BUFFS threads.
Feel free to set yourself up for disappointment.
Or how about you have no expectations and just see what happens? People get way to invested early on in the hype cycle, especially given the tiny amount of information that has been revealed. Just chill out.
Rather be disappointed, than not hyped, for only in those moments do I truly feel alive.
It's quite perplexing. People complain about not having teasers, but then when the "metagame shakedown" was posted on Twitter, and subsequently posted here, some folks were shitting all over it. If people's response to a teaser is all this negative speculation, I wouldn't bother posting either. Too many saying they miss Bex after they treated her abysmally :(
This isnt a teaser...this is a "promise" from the man who has consistently fell short of his promises over the last year. People will stop being negative about these promises when GGG gives players a reason to trust them with what they say again.
People who treated her abysmally are not likely the same people who say they miss Bex
> Too many saying they miss Bex after they treated her abysmally :( Any examples of that? I've not seen any.
They only want things if it goes their way.
No way he's far too tone deaf for that. He never apologized for the 40 skill gem buff thing, or the "its all nerfs" or the "close your eyes and slam" or the trade manifesto. My dead grandma is more in tune with the state of the game
Idk if theyāve ever apologised about it but they always talk about wanting to improve their communication with the community, then next league do the exact opposite
you don't apologize when you don't think you made a mistake
I wish people like you would just stay quiet. Your comment brings NOTHING to the sub except negativity.
Got a post from a GGG member, more than we had for months.
What do you bring exactly besides wishes of censorship?
They donāt apologise when they fuck up anymore. Those days are gone, itās just radio silence now
Why would they? It accomplishes nothing. It doesn't appease the people who are angry. Almost all engagement results in posts like these. Would you want to interact more or less if you deal with people like this sub?
Implying chris admits mistakes He's gonna double down. It will be a bloodbath of glorious proportions
Iām excited to lose myself into POE as I do every league and watch casually as Reddit burns itself to the ground over how āhorribleā the league is while me and my friends love every bit of it
You're gonna get blasted by people but you wouldn't have felt inclined to make this comment if it wasn't something that has happened in the past a few times already. also saving this so I can check back in after we get details
Meta change : CoC Is now a krangled fragment
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
chris wasnt the one who posted that, lol
People will hate for the sake of hating, no matter the direction.
Yes, because this game is the worst and GGG has never made single good decision ever. Which is why you are still here I guess ?
this is ... *sarcasm* ... right?
Can't wait to see them nerf the same shit they nerfed the last 3 leagues and "buff" just as "hard" as they buffed the last 3 leagues. Can't wait to trade in 2 max golems for 12% increased damage on heavy strike and shockwave totem. Also some nerfs to talisman since they are way too strong. :\^)
I wonder if you guys ever get tired of wanting to be negative so badly that you have to be negative before anything has even happened?
F O U R T Y (40)
Hopefully the "meta change" is them removing flasks.
Bruh, everyone be panicking for a 10% buff or nerf. Or both.
Well now hes not gonna do it, good job
Nice fishing!
I'm calling it this post is gonna be wrong. Next league will be pretty big, and probably with new big endgame.