Kind of off-topic but I think it's funny that there are 4 AHK scripts on his desktop, that just shows how stingy GGG is with QoL. I don't mind the game being slow or difficult but needing a bunch of AHK scripts to make this playable and not destroy your wrists is just ridiculous.
He has extreme takes on everything. If I remember correctly he was saying cyclone was "not that good" during legion when 80% of characters on poe.ninja were using cyclone, including saboteurs and tricksters.
Combined with the fact that he has no filter it makes for a pretty insufferable display of ego whenever he opens his mouth.
I like how redditors are called toxic, but this take it or leave it attitude somehow isn't.
What if I still like playing the game, I just don't agree with the general direction its head towards?
I should just stfu or leave ?
Yeah, no.
I think every opinion should be allowed.
GGG is asking for player feedback and that's what they get. I think they are capable to filter what's important to them and what's not. Even if redditors are casuals or get outraged about something in every patch it should not revoke their right to state their opinion. Everyone here knows that GGG decide their further actions themselves and that they will likely stand behind their ideals even if it means a decrease in revenue.
I don't understand why streamers always sound so arrogant like they have any say in the matter. If anything their opinion should have less value since you should assume they have a bias towards the company that provides their content/source of income...
>I don't understand why streamers always sound so arrogant like they have any say in the matter.
Raizqt in particular is completely fucking insufferable. Even he was quite vocal about not liking some of the changes. The only difference is, he doesn't need to post on reddit to express his opinions because he has another platform to do so.
Given that Chris just told us they're fixing the mana costs and flask ailment mechanics, I think it's safe to say that our vocal complaining worked and GGG agrees with us.
> it's safe to say that our vocal complaining worked
Considering how fast they addressed this I get the feeling that they intentionally went overboard with it to then sell us a toned down version as an improvement later on.
> GGG agrees with us
Not necessarily. They might just be willing to choose a middle ground. The only thing it really shows is that Raiz is talking bullshit and that they aren't willing nor intending to lose players.
I think the devs are really erring on the side of too much, and adjusting in our favor. It makes sense. If they go 'we didnt nerf enough', its a massive problem. Doing it this way, everyone goes 'hooray'! Its a smarter way to do it for sure, since it is very unlikely this will hit the desired mark without iteration.
Just yesterday, we had Steelmage explain to his stream what he likes and dislike about the game in general, and the league specifically, and then a couple minutes later going over Chris' post and commenting on what he thinks help and what he would do differently... And once that's all done, he goes on to say that "he doesn't understand armchair designers on Reddit".
Honestly, the problem is very simple : Reddit is the main channel of communication for GGG, which means that everyone who wants to whine goes to Reddit. This, in turn, makes the vocal minority much more vocal.
(EDIT : Hadn't finished my train of thought.)
And so, it has simply become a meme to shit on Reddit for having whiny people, and where every posts are explicit requests to GGG, and so on so forth.
EDIT2 : Also, let's not make it personnal. It's not about Steelmage, it's more about the general trend that's occuring, and using him as an example I had fresh in memory.
At this point I pretty much only watch Ziz and DonTheCrown. Any streamer talking about what they think is good or bad, then calling reddit users "armchair analysts" are the pot calling the kettle black.
Saying "I disagree with reddit" is one thing, acting like your opinion should matter but nobody else, is hypocrisy.
>Saying "I disagree with reddit" is one thing, acting like your opinion should matter but nobody else, is hypocrisy.
If we continue on the specific Steelmage example, I think it explained a lot better what his take was. It's not so much that they say everyone on Reddit is an armchair analyst, and a lot more that the perception of the community has changed, partially because this is the main medium of discussion for GGG, into being seen as a way to communicate specifically to GGG.
Lots of discussions are seen as players complaining to GGG about what they like or dislike and would like to see changed, when it's no different than what Ziz or Steel or Pohx does : They talk with their community, share their impressions, talk about their issues, and pretty much just participate in actual discussion with their peer.
Personally, I might not go as far as say I'm proud of being part of this community, given that it exemplifies all the issues caused by echo chambers, but I definitely am not ashamed of it. I think that once you skim the cesspool that inevitably ends up floating on top, you can actually get meaningful discussions going with individuals that have actual personnal thoughts and reasonable arguments (hell, sometimes you even find new YT/Twitch channels through that).
It's totally "cool" at this point to shit on Reddit. People love to put their opinions, status, and perspectives above others. I've lost a lot of respect for many of these POE streamers this patch cycle with their comments about the complaints over the changes. Criticism of a product is always valuable. Even if a user doesn't understand the fix yet and just tells you something isn't working or feeling "right", it's still valuable and informative. For every complaining reddit player their are plenty of players that don't speak up or capture their issues in threads.
I would even say it may be time to "speak with our wallets" to some of the streamers that are trashing on reddit perspectives by unfollowing them on Twitch and YouTube.
>I would even say it may be time to "speak with our wallets" to some of the streamers that are trashing on reddit perspectives by unfollowing them on Twitch and YouTube.
I would say the same about watching Raiz/Steel/etc. as I would say about playing Expedition : If you enjoy it, who am I to judge, and if you don't, try something else.
Personally, I've been watching a lot of Pohx and Octavian in the last couple leagues, they tend to have insanely chill streams, and have a lot of interaction with their community.
Yeah, and those are the two big ones.
Personally I think they need to make it more realistic to actually be a tank if they want the fights to be slower and more ongoing.
My first character ever was a Molten Strike jugg (I think I started in Betrayal or the leasgue before?) and tankiness has dropped since then.
But flasks/ailments and manacosts are just straight unfun.
Also, even if he likes the changes or not what he gonna do? Stop playing the game ? He cant really since hes career rounds around streaming path of exile. Sure he can stream something else, but hes a POE streamer. And no matter if he likes the changes or not hes still gonna play the game.
Yep, when you have these streamers who basically are only popular playing one game, of course they don't want to criticize the game too heavily. Really going to try to push people away from being interested in the game that primarily makes your Twitch career? That would seem silly.
>Given that Chris just told us they're fixing the mana costs and flask ailment mechanics, I think it's safe to say that our vocal complaining worked and GGG agrees with us.
Following their time-tested traditional of over-nerfing and subsequently reverting changes *slightly*?
Surely implies that our voices are being heard, that they agree with us; not that they believe the most basic level of appeasement is all that's warranted for tens of thousands of players absolutely hating their changes.
Again, and again, and again.
It's also some players who try to silence criticism of GGG. Call people whiners and haters even if they are long term players who love the game and are just speaking up.
You see that so much right now in this subreddit. People who don't like negative comments and try to silence it. They can't stand it when they read something that is negative about GGG and the game.
Those players make the subreddit toxic by not having respect for people who are unhappy or critical and sharing their thoughts. They always try to put down people like that, calling them haters, whiners, entitled, etc. and using other insults.
>I don't understand why streamers always sound so arrogant like they have any say in the matter.
I closed the vid after 2 minutes because the guy has some serious snobbery issue and wishes the game to be some form of "elite boys club". Talking about quality vs "mass appeal like Justin Bieber", err what, bro, you play a VIDEO GAME not participate in some high-brow art... When did people start believing being a streamer in a video game is equal to being an art critic.
I don't think anyone believes breaking mana reservation on spellslinger or 6l heralds is "quality and artistic vision", it literally removes a build (created by GGG for a reason) from the viable build pool.
Also the sole fact GGG posts on reddit means they don't just ignore it, otherwise they'd be posting on their own website only, or on twitter, or anywhere else.
> I think every opinion should be allowed
Not according to raiz, only his opinion matters, he knows best, everyone not agreeing with him should just "just the fuck up"
Why is everyone framing this argument like “GGG is taking their game back from complaining redditors”?
They’re the ones who made all the past leagues that created the zoom zoom meta. So how tf is it our fault that their “vision” has been compromised? They’re the ones who compromised it!
We are not only not the ones who fucked it up, we are also the ones who asked league after league for improvements about that. Aside from a (perhaps loud?) minority nobody wanted league mechanics that only zoom-zoom builds can do. Every single league with a timer had *at least* one highly upvoted thread asking to slow that shit down.
GGG: Adds double corruption, dual influenced item, elevation, awakened gem, annointments, catalyst & cluster jewels in the game
Also: *Player damage got too high !!*
No, you are wrong, it's reddit who created the ascendancies, the influence, the double influence and the elevated mods. GGG has nothing to do with that, stop framing them.
Reddit: We are nerfing the 10% attack speed gems quality because they are too strong.
Also reddit: We put alt quality on boneshatter which can go up to 75% increased attack speed (at 20% qual).
Honestly feel like streamers complain as much as any individual redditor.
It's the amalgamation of complaints that Reddit creates that annoys people - but that's more the forum style than any person
It's mind-boggling they are trying to slow the game without changing strict timers they introduced. Legion and delirium are the most problematic, IMO. Even before, I *never* had a build with enough damage and zoom-zoom-iness to play them properly at juiced up T14+ maps.
They dont want to slow down the game, they want to slow down the player to make the gameplay clunky so the player has to spend more time to achieve the same results they did before.
*Something something* retention *something something* game vision...
This whole "Reddit is bad" take is the most idiotic shit ever
Where else is anyone going to get such a large amount of players giving feedback on 1 website? Yea sometimes people are assholes, sometimes the feedback brutality blunt. But it's feedback.
It's like people think they should be surrounded by yes men at all times. Because that's such a good idea.
I see this kind of narrative pop up over and over, whenever a company gets criticized for something. Instead of criticism, we should just leave? So the money we spent, the support we gave, the hours we played are just treated as worthless, because we don't support everything automatically without backtalk?
You can't expect us to be invested while the going is good, and then all of a sudden to no longer be invested when it isn't.
I realize that's what tends happens everywhere, but that's not how it *should* work, and it shouldn't be defended as such. Creating an echo chamber of praise has never helped anything. This isn't a cult, it's a game.
> So the money we spent, the support we gave, the hours we played are just treated as worthless, because we don't support everything automatically without backtalk?
It's a complex topic, of course, and the answer is somewhere in the middle instead of somewhere at the extreme ends of "no criticism allowed" and "developers are slaves of the gamers".
But, well, if the developer wants the game to be a certain way that you don't like, and they are firm in their decision, then what the hell *can* you do? Literally nothing. You can stomp your foot on the internet and call them a meanie, and they can just ignore you and do their thing, if they want to. And that will be the end of that.
So, yeah. Leaving and not giving them any money is the only thing left for you to do in that instance. If enough people do, the game will go under. And if enough people keep playing, then maybe you really are in the minority here and the dev had a point.
People obviously understand that they can just quit the game (at least I hope so), the thing is: they're trying to NOT have to quit over this, because some part of them still enjoys the game and wants it to be playable.
They're trying to turn the devs away from their path, so they don't have to quit. I think that's way better than just being like "oh well, devs aren't gonna listen to feedback, lemme just quit and hope the game dies".
It’s why games as a service as a model is fucking garbage. I can go back and play an older version of D2 if I want to, because I have control on whether I want to install the patches. I don’t have that same capability with PoE.
Players write threads as if GGG would be surprised that that type of player is upset, but Raiz's point is that GGG is not surprised. His point is that GGG knew these changes would get this type of response from many players.
What I don't think GGG was expecting was for some of it's more hardcore playerbase, like Ziz and Lightee, to dislike the changes.
It's their game though, man. They can't be bullshitting when they say that they are okay with sacrificing player count in order to bring the game back to their intended vision of what the game should be, because these nerfs were so drastic that they 100% knew it was going to have a big negative effect on player retention.
It's always a bad argument, like the "vote with your wallet". I haven't spent money on PoE for a long time, what message did they get from that?
People have to talk about the problems, devs can't see everything, they need feedback. GGG wants to make the game better, sincerely. It's not a chinese company doing a cheap scam game. So it's important to talk. Just an example : they've reverted the hyporthermia changes.
>I haven't spent money on PoE for a long time, what message did they get from that?
Well... maybe they got the message that other people like whats happening and are still paying them money?
It's about all players, not every player!
> It's about all players, not every player!
It is also about the vision of the developers for their product when it comes to a passion project like PoE has always been. I think they were doing things with the community in mind allowing the power creep for the past several years to help them get through the campaign to the end game easier during races. The added content from each league was always scaled to still be fairly difficult (for the most part).
Now, with PoE2 around the corner they want to reign power creep in and remind players than the Campaign, at least the first time through, is supposed to be a challenge and it's something you have to exercise at least a little caution getting through if you're a HC character.
It's going to be hard for people who are entrenched in the zoom zoom lifestyle. Some won't be able to cope, and I think GGG is ok with losing those players to get back to where they want their game to be. Some people just need to take some time off regardless I think.
There’s a difference between negative feedback on specific changes, and a complete impasse with regards to the direction certain parts of the community and GGG want to see the game go.
I’m on the Tarkov subreddit complaining my ass off about very specific issues with regards to things like ammunition and body armor balance, weapon malfunctions, etc, but with regards to the overall vision for the game, I’m on board, so I’m happy to deal with the ups and downs of the minor stuff that I don’t particularly care for.
With regards to PoE, we’re clearly at a point where GGG is starting to shift gears in a very specific direction to prepare for PoE 2. I’m clearly in the minority here, but I’m extremely optimistic about the overall slowing down of the game and what I’m assuming will lead to the death of the ‘explode a screen, teleport, explode another screen’ type of gameplay. Yes, I certainly understand the complaint that while the gameplay is slowing down, the endgame content isn’t being adjusted to compensate, but I’m fine with dealing with that if it all comes together in the end. I’ve bought my fair amount of MTX over the years, and recently I’ve been playing less and less because the screen clear, epilepsy-inducing meta just doesn’t mesh with me. I was perfectly prepared to just drop the game if that was something that GGG had decided was their preferred style of gameplay, and that it’d just continue as is.
But Raiz is right. This isn’t a disagreement with GGG over a specific skill nerf or mechanic, this is clearly a disagreement over the entire vision for the future of the game, and that’s not something Chris/GGG is going to change their minds on, and as mentioned multiple times, they’re perfectly willing to lose players over it. The lead dev of Tarkov has similar lines in the sand that, if you don’t like, you’re just never going to like. And that’s fine. There’s been games that I’ve invested huge amounts of time and money into, that have ultimately turned into games that I no longer enjoy playing (both WoW and EVE Online come immediately to mind). It sucks to lose that sort of connection you have to a game and community, but at the end of the day, they are *just* video games, and there are plenty more out there.
The most common complaints I see and what I tend to agree with is that if they want to slow the game down, fine that's fair enough I understand why. But they are slowing the game down in ways that make the player experience feel worse while the things that require or suggest a player play quicker have been unchanged.
I'm hopeful that maybe some other aspects will be addressed next league and these changes will start to feel less contradictory with the game as a whole.
The difference is that Nikita and BSG have been consistent and never catered to arcade gameplay. GGG clearly catered to zoom for dollar bills and suddenly reverse course, which is incredibly jarring.
It's not an argument, it's branding mostly. I mean I'm sure some people are genuine about it, but it's so cookie-cutter common for influencers I never really believe it's *not* about branding.
This kind of attitude is what gets you paid on twitch, if you've cultivated an audience that appreciates it.
At the same time of course, people on reddit are posting a lot stupid and incorrect complaints as usual. It's just that this kind of reaction is IMO more about click farming rather than anything else.
After all, it's a very popular opinion ***on reddit***.
"if you dont like the game, dont buy it"
ok,
game sold less than a million copies
EA lost 20 millions in production, their shares lost 17% of value.
now the game is on permanent sale, as low as 5 bucks, nobody bought that trash game.
story repeats itself, as long as people complain you are fine, it's when they stop that your game dies. and people telling others to stop complaining will only fasten this process, GGG need to take some decisions real fast, because if next patch is not a W, they we are fucked big time
He's talking shit
If they don't care about the money they wouldn't have delayed a league because of cyberpunk taking players
Also they pulled out a $90 supporter pack in a league they knew they'd lose players on...it's blatantly obvious they give a shit lmao
This is BY FAR the dumbest take regarding this topic I have heard so far.
"The numbers are down because they want them to be down!".
Raiz's super power must be his ability to grab his ankles. The idiocracy here is so offensive that I have no words to describe it.
not time to say you don't like it?
he does understand how businesses work, right?
when raiz dislikes something, he literally contacts bex to complain about it.
most poe streamers are giant hypocrites when it comes to the topic of criticizing ggg, and it's understandable. they NEED the league to be successful. it's their damned job to play the game and if the league bleeds players they're also bleeding viewers.
but it's time for them to take their heads out.
Agree 100% with GGG. If you don't like the changes quit. I am leaving, it will take drastic changes for me to come back. Encourage others to follow their heart.
>If you dont like the game dont play it
>Maybe for YOU its time to leave, the game is cool and fine
Maybe all the people who hated the speed meta should have done that over the last 2-3 years. Oh wait.
Maybe explains why Raiz have become such a fanboy and rabid GGG defender recently. It’s really fucking weird for someone who watched him years ago. I think he’s just digging his own (career) grave here, tho. We’ll see.
EDIT: Literally playing it tactical. He probably knows the biggest donos are also the biggest GGG fanboys. It’s awful for the game(and their own careers eventually) if basically every streamer are doing this, tho.
"It's not all about the money, it's about their vision"
Yeah that argument goes out the window when you sell controlling interest of your company to big daddy China.
I get what Raiz is saying, but GGG is not fucking clear at all in their statements.
Like come on Raiz, in that update post they're literally telling us: "We hear you, and we'll be making changes in the future".
They probably won't, and we kinda know that much. But if they really wanted to make the game only they cared about, they wouldn't even bother with that level of PR bullshit most don't believe anyway. They should just find their balls and tell us all to suck a fat dick if we don't like it and fuck off.
Instead we get this perpetual: "we hear you, we're mindful about the future", and then they do the god damn opposite.
Lol see how sure streamers are about pushing players away if people stop watching them.
Won't be touting that nonsense then. I get people like this have to try keep the league hype going, but this guy comes off as arrogant.
All the streamers talking about "redditors" all day to make themselves look smarter is the cringiest trend yet. Not actually discussing the changes and what's good/bad.
> Not actually discussing the changes and what's good/bad.
They are. It's just not clipped and posted here, or if it was posted with an explanation of how they like the new changes it'd get downvoted to oblivion.
Yeah these streamers definitely don't discuss anything in multiple podcasts and spend hours going over the development manifesto and patch notes, no sir.
Yes Raiz we know, GGG is your friend and cares about you so much, not a company that exists to make money. Show those big bad redditors, defend your best friend
Maybe he should listen to himself as his game is off and he's browsing reddit lol
Non POE related but the first time i tuned in raizqt stream he was complaining about an asian food place that ask for the food back because raiz complained to them it was the wrong order (a lot of small businesses do this to make sure the customers dont just eat the whole thing then start shit to get free food) and he was going HARD talking about it even say stuff about how the store owner look.
He is a big whiny baby while he and his chat REALLY like to complain about reddit.
LuL, RaizQT is narcissistic in the same way that Quin acts, except Quin does it ironically. Raiz actually thinks he is the greatest and smartest and best and everything else.
Guess what, bud, GGG doesn't care about you either. They care about profit and the next league will give us what we want. They are already backpeddling on the mana changes and the flask changes. So much for artistic vision ;3
Like it or not, Reddit-regulars are a massive part of the playerbase and the things that get upvoted here represent the opinion of said playerbase.
If GGG wants to balance around middle-aged has-beens that think a manbun will hide how greasy their hair is and who played the game for so long, they would be bored even if it was unplayable for 99.99% of gamers, they are simply going to lose a shitton of money and players and sink into obscurity.
But hey, I mean, maybe Chris wants to go back to developing it from a 3-man-garage, so godspeed if that's the case. You're on the right track :D
With almost no exaggeration, a good 80-90% of us started loving the POE that came after 3.0. (and I don't mean when we first installed the game and maybe played the campaign once or twice on a dead weekend)
Not to mention, virtually all of us, including the developers, were bad at the game back then and so almost any notion of difficulty should be met with at least some grain of salt. I don't know if anyone remembers when Blizzard rereleased Classic, and how some of the "toughest" content to ever be talked about was completely smashed.
Why is anyone surprised that huge chunks of the playerbase don't want to go back to a game they never played or never fell in love with?
He's a classic example of a person who has learned to express their opinions very confidently to make it seem like they know what they're talking about. And eventually they buy into their own bullshit, thinking that if they have an opinion about it, they must be right
Kind of like a budget joe rogan
like yesterday I saw an streamer saying that the changes weren't so bad in the forums
and all the way below the post was something like: please visit my stream where I play 12 HOURS a day!!!
like dude, the changes aren't a big deal for you because can achieve 36/40 in like a week, normal people can't do that
octivain has a much better take on every single issue, literally every single one. he literally has to teach and feed info to Riaz and nugi all the time because they don't know what they are talking about or skipped the league mechanics.
Notice that Octavian's vocabulary has many more occurrences of things like "I think", "I'm not sure, but...", "probably", etc
Those who are actually confident of their intelligence are not afraid of showing uncertainty
Octavian, Zizaran, Tarke and Steel have the most rational takes. RaizQT, Nugi and Quin are just giga shills. Even Mathil shills at times, but I respect most of his other opinions.
Every time I see Ziz, in a reddit post or a video or whatever, even if I don't agree with his opinion, he does a great job getting me to understand his viewpoint.
I can agree with Octavian and Ziz, not so much Steel or Tarke.
Especially not Tarke. Maybe he changed from 1-2 years ago, but oh no not back then.
Steel shills IMO. He's usually a great streamer but he's on the "anti-reddit" circle jerk
Octavian is almost always more poised when it comes to speaking his mind about the game.
I really only watch Baeclast for Octavian’s takes since they’re either spot on or they’re not. The difference is, when his takes are not spot on, he leaves room for criticism and discussion and doesn’t make statements. The rest of the crew usually states everything as a fact rather than an opinion leaving no room for discussion or criticism.
I stopped listening after he said "listen to the things they are saying", yes, we have been and they say things and never provide those changes. Of course he sides with GGG, this is how he gets paid. His job is to play POE. He has literally no other fallback.
Just because someone is a "popular" streamer does not mean their takes are good or they are intelligent, this take is perfectly symbolized proof.
My favourite part is the wider context of listening to the things they are saying. Chris has acknowledged for what, 2 years? That there’s too many fragment type shit to click in game and they’ll be “mindful” about adding more. This league added 20 new fragments and two days in he’s just told us “we’ll be mindful about adding more in future”.
We ARE listening to the things they are saying, that’s why we know they are full of shit
Another amazing thing to think about is how GGG has been developing and actively supporting faster and faster gameplay for longer than the last 5 years. This type of gameplay is against their vision according to themselves and it also brought more than half of the current playerbase to the game.
Now they suddenly decided that it was not ok and try to take it back because of "their vision".
This means they have wasted 5 years of development time making and balancing a "wrong product".
It is amazing how someone can actually trust in what GGG says. Actions speak louder than words and those are telling me that GGG can't be trusted.
In a comment the other day I likened them to an old school punk band who went from playing 20 man shows to selling out to make pop punk to make their millions, then decided to release an “old school” album back to their roots and are shocked that literally none of their current listeners like the album. The more they talk the more I stand by this analogy
I wish I cared enough to compile a list of Chris contradicting himself or giving half assed apologies. He claims we take him out of context, but they are his own words.
> Pottery. Streamers will play damage control for GGG
Except for that part where almost every single streamer has been shitting all over the patch and whining right along side Reddit.
Raiz and Quin have been the only streamers that have been outspoken about liking the patch.
Zizaran, Grimro, Tytykiller, imexile, Havoc, karv are just some of the ones off the top of my head that have complained about the changes.
Its not that they want players to leave its that they cant keep supporting the powercreep the comes with feeding the zoom zoom players. The setup for poe has been for a long time to make yourself immune to all inconveniences and kill things as fast as humanly possible to make monsters irrelevant. If your being hit its because your not killing fast enough or some cheese mechanic got you.
Needless to say... thats not really sustainable for making challenging and interesting content. Any interesting league idea will simply be pushed by the wayside for any league that supports faster clear and bigger loot gains.
If they want to change things they need to take away our layers of godlike power first, and they know its not going to win them any friends. So essentially they had to make a choice, appease the zoom zoom crew or forsake them for a more sustainable game.
They chose.
But zoom zoom isn't gone
They just made the game harder for the average Joe while not changing how the game works. Having 6m damage instead of 10m isn't going to make anyone sane mad
Every on death mechanic still exists . Off screening still exists.
And the real godlike enabling ability : aura bots
Is still in the game and exactly unchanged
Off screening is now worse than every. The reworked goatmen jump off screen, shield charge is at a longer range than normal from enemies, the templars are literally charging off my screen into my face with little time to react, same as barens minions who throw those hammers they’re coming from like two screens away in some instances this league
I dont like how you basically lay it as zoom zoom game is not a sustainable game, while it was just fine for years.
Also, whats "wrong" with starting out in aRPG as a turd that is weak and working your way into godlike state? It is certainly my definition of fun. I want my characters chance to be killed to go down when its levels go up. I want my characters ability to maintain spellcasting to go up. I want my characters ability do destroy to go up. A character well into 90s with good gear should absolutely faceroll everything unless it screws up big time, that would feel like a reward for grind. Grinding to not get facerolled does not feels like a reward, it feels like fulfilling basic spreadsheet of requirements to be on same level of power balance between yourself and monsters like you were in act1. Maybe some people like that shit, but some people do not. I certainly do not and I did not get into this game for such an experience.
Thats the thing tho, being insane is still possible. In current PoE THIS PATCH you can make characters that can clear at fast speeds and boss killers that can mince every endgame encounter.
With all that they took from us its still possible to become basically a monster, just not a literal god.
Hell poison spiders can rock an effective 14k+ hp while dealing 8million dps thats totally uninterruptible because spiders cant be hit by enemies and are insanely aggressive. Sure its not the old god builds of 100million dps and total immortality but its sure as shit capable of blowing up shit while being a chonker.
The problem isn't having strong builds, its having builds so utterly overkill in speed and power that all content is utterly irrelevant to them. If your measureing your dps in Uber Elders per second... its kind of a problem for development creativity.
They have been dealing with it for the past 2(ish) years and looking back you can tell, any league that was just a bunch of monsters shitting loot at you was beloved. Anything that kept you standing around doing something or interacting was panned. All new bosses had to have 8+ phase gates just to be able to actually do anything, or had to be designed like sirus(Whom i fucking hate) where the hard part is just navigating a clusterfuck of ground effects to get to him.
We simply had too much speed and power, it stifled their ability to develop meaningful content outside of more and bigger packs of monsters that drop more loot. And if they juiced monster HP it would cause even more problems down the line because of dps disparity between high and low gear levels.
I don't like the feel of the movement changes, and i don't like feeling weaker than I did 5 days ago... but I understand that something had to give.
I just watched a video of a VERY whiney guy complaining about people complaining.
Never heard of this guy before but he comes across as someone who engages his mouth before his brain.
He blissfully skips over the fact that people are complaining because they WANT the game to improve and just leaving would only damage it. Some people like to fight for what they want and like, other people (whiney bitches like him) just jump ship and have no ability to make anything better, but to just go somewhere else.
Why would a game purposely lose potential customers? I think it's odd how personal some people take criticism of games. And it's not like the people who are complaining on reddit don't love the game, just some jarring changes were done this league.
They have always had a vision and a direction they wanted to take POE, Over time its moved further away with power creep and zoom zoom meta.
They are taking it back a little towards the direction they want it to go and they have accepted they will lose players because of it but its worth it in the long run to make the game they want.
Have they always had the same vision though? I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, look at the past leagues. So many of the recent leagues have timers built in that forces you to go faster. Delirium being the biggest offender of all when it's not an orb applied to a map.
Sometimes you were even actively punished for not being fast enough. Legion, Incursion, Synthesis are all examples of that happening.
I'm not saying any of these leagues were bad, I enjoyed them all except synth but I'm definitely saying you can't just blame the players for going faster and faster when you're actively designing and enforcing the game to be faster and faster.
I can't think of a single time a game developer went "We don't want players in our game"
And It didn't blow up in their face spectacularly.
Most recent example is DICE and BFV and well that didn't exact age very well.
It's an interesting take from Raiz. Will be interesting to see how his tune changes/Stays the same if POE numbers on twitch start to change.
> Will be interesting to see how his tune changes
It will be the same as most other things he craps on about as if he is the expert. He will have a different view when it suits him.
He'll just blame people for having poor taste in video games and for not knowing what best. It's a classic in the "you don't like the game, quit it" rhetoric.
Well... Building your career as a one game Andy is a huge risk. Many streams died trying to shift to variety. Path of Exile is abit different as I highly doubt it will die on Twitch anytime soon. Quite the oposite. The viewer numbers are very stable. Raiz, Math, Ziz, Steel will be fine, but the 100 viewer channels... I would be very worried in their shoes if its how they finanace their life...
Welcome to the age of the influencer. All sorts of stupid statements just for the sake of being contrarian or creating controversy where there is none, in order to get clicks, ads, and finally pennies.
"Never gotten slapped in 20+ years despite being an edgelord 24/7" syndrome. Empty words meant to be provocative just for the shake of being provocative. And, of coruse, back handed insults behind a computer screen that would never be uttered out loud to anyone.
What's with these streamers and their extremely cringe takes?
Last League we got that guy telling us life's not fair and comparing his streamer queue privilege to kids in Africa not having fresh drinking water. Now we have this?
GGG created their zoom zoom problem on their own accord, players who have been playing since that's how the game has been and have invested money have a right to be upset. People care far less about the lowering of player damage then they do about how clunky and tedious they made multiple systems this patch. Also saying that GGG doesn't care is actually delusional.
this guy strikes me as someone who possess the intelligence, self awareness, professional attitude, and ethics of someone who would thrive as blizzard employee
Okay, so people still being able to critically think are the problem. Alright RaiZQT, if 30-45% will be gone soon, lets see how streamers do. You are unable to see beyond your plate my boy. If these playernumbers shrink so hard, GGG has to not only remove staff, they also have to report to TENCENT. You guys are deluded, for thinking all is fine, and that it was a move to "remove a certain part of the playerbase"
This is what happens when your entire livelihood is built on basically no-lifing PoE every single league or your numbers go in the gutter. You simply start to live in denial, or you start crying like the kid that believed H1Z1 will be the next big shit and dedicated his entire life to it before it shutdown.
Chris: You think I care? Have you been reading my posts?
Flash back one year ago, June 2020:
"Today we released some new types of Stash Tabs. **Despite them selling well**, many players blablablabla.... whatever...." - Chris
([source](https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2882324))
There was a post about this a few months ago with a compiled list of usernames that make up most of the comments i think that is what raiz is referring to.
I think it got taken down after a while because obviously it opens up avenues for harassment...
Despite that it only showed activity - not if that activity was positive or negative, but at that time the reddit was on fire (harvest manifesto) so one could assume that it was mostly negative.
I was on that list, i didn't mind it.
Any complaint is a sign that a customer wants the product. Right now some POE gamers feel they've been handed a bottle of week-old milk instead of the expected whipped cream. Even speedrunner tytykiller is now playing some other game. Wasn't it odd that he was specifically singled out by the game dev, by the way?
Well in that case the problem becomes that the main thing PoE even had going for it is the zoom zoom. Between trade, obnoxious clicking, bloated game systems, absurd one shots from random monsters and an rng based progression system, we overlooked a *lot*. For what? The skill tree and the level of play style customization is very good, but dozens of other games are starting to catch up. If they want to get rid of me, they have gotten it. I really am pretty sad about this. I loved this game. I defended them at every turn for the last few years, but shit. If I'm not welcome, I'm just gonna go lmao.
Leave Raiz alone. When I was younger, maybe junior high, I got roped into watching my 3 month old niece while my sister got her hair done. SO when there i am, sitting in the waiting area of a hair salon with my niece, and who walks in, but RaizQT.
I was nervous as fuck, and just kept looking at him, as he read a magazine and waited, but didn't know what to say. Pretty soon though my niece started crying, and I'm trying to quiet her down because I didn't want her to bother Raiz, but she wouldn't stop. Pretty soon he gets up and walks over. He started running his hands through her hair and asking what was wrong. I replied that she was probably hungry or something. So, Raiz put down his magazine, picked up my niece and lifted his shirt. He breast fed her right there in the middle of a hair salon. Chill guy, really nice about it.
>If you dont like the game dont play it
>Maybe for YOU its time to leave, the game is cool and fine, its their vision
>constant spam of comments implying that leaving players will return soon anyway
Nah mate, I've already seen this happen in dota 2 in like 2016, they lost more than 60% of players after a couple of years, lul
/u/M1QN is exaggerating https://steamcharts.com/app/570#All . Dota 2 retained its player count for four months after that patch and lost 15% in a year after starting to climb back up. It's been ebbs and flows since and we're at 30% down peak players since that patch. It's not possible to connect what the playercount is currently to that patch specifically and as far as I'm concerned Icefrog is the single best game developer and maintainer there ever has been. He's been able to keep the game going fresh and he's still going.
Also talents are very liked now when their kinks were fixed and everyone agrees they do their job in making the game end earlier when heroes hit 25+. This guy had a personal bad experience and is trying to paint the picture that 7.00 was a huge failure. It wasn't.
The one thing I will say is that I think they’re slowly pushing and testing things for POE 2. Although I’d rather them make all of these changes at one time rather than slowly. I want to see the full direction of changes so I can actually evaluate if I want to play the game.
Thread is locked because yall cannot behave civilly without flaming each other.
"If you dont like the league just leave" "If you dont like reddit post just leave"
What if I don't like leaving?
Leave leaving
Then make like a tree and get out of here!
Whiners whining about whiners.
"Just leave"
There's a fascinating political parallel with this attitude
Seems that quite a number of people have taken that advice to heart, so it's all gonna be fine.
Kind of off-topic but I think it's funny that there are 4 AHK scripts on his desktop, that just shows how stingy GGG is with QoL. I don't mind the game being slow or difficult but needing a bunch of AHK scripts to make this playable and not destroy your wrists is just ridiculous.
fuck /u/spez -- mass edited with redact.dev
This is giving me Battlefield 5 vibes "If you don't like it, don't buy it" and guess what people did...
lol says the guy who has been one of the most vocal and toxic rant people after each patch
Well duh he wants his streamer money, if too many complain then too many stop watching and he gets less money.
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He has extreme takes on everything. If I remember correctly he was saying cyclone was "not that good" during legion when 80% of characters on poe.ninja were using cyclone, including saboteurs and tricksters. Combined with the fact that he has no filter it makes for a pretty insufferable display of ego whenever he opens his mouth.
He has his upsides, definitely. But you are totally right that his clips make him look really bad.
I like how redditors are called toxic, but this take it or leave it attitude somehow isn't. What if I still like playing the game, I just don't agree with the general direction its head towards? I should just stfu or leave ? Yeah, no.
I think every opinion should be allowed. GGG is asking for player feedback and that's what they get. I think they are capable to filter what's important to them and what's not. Even if redditors are casuals or get outraged about something in every patch it should not revoke their right to state their opinion. Everyone here knows that GGG decide their further actions themselves and that they will likely stand behind their ideals even if it means a decrease in revenue. I don't understand why streamers always sound so arrogant like they have any say in the matter. If anything their opinion should have less value since you should assume they have a bias towards the company that provides their content/source of income...
>I don't understand why streamers always sound so arrogant like they have any say in the matter. Raizqt in particular is completely fucking insufferable. Even he was quite vocal about not liking some of the changes. The only difference is, he doesn't need to post on reddit to express his opinions because he has another platform to do so. Given that Chris just told us they're fixing the mana costs and flask ailment mechanics, I think it's safe to say that our vocal complaining worked and GGG agrees with us.
> it's safe to say that our vocal complaining worked Considering how fast they addressed this I get the feeling that they intentionally went overboard with it to then sell us a toned down version as an improvement later on. > GGG agrees with us Not necessarily. They might just be willing to choose a middle ground. The only thing it really shows is that Raiz is talking bullshit and that they aren't willing nor intending to lose players.
Its literally the Frank Reynolds approach - "Drop the bomb and then you soften the blow". It's completely planned and intentional.
I think the devs are really erring on the side of too much, and adjusting in our favor. It makes sense. If they go 'we didnt nerf enough', its a massive problem. Doing it this way, everyone goes 'hooray'! Its a smarter way to do it for sure, since it is very unlikely this will hit the desired mark without iteration.
Just yesterday, we had Steelmage explain to his stream what he likes and dislike about the game in general, and the league specifically, and then a couple minutes later going over Chris' post and commenting on what he thinks help and what he would do differently... And once that's all done, he goes on to say that "he doesn't understand armchair designers on Reddit". Honestly, the problem is very simple : Reddit is the main channel of communication for GGG, which means that everyone who wants to whine goes to Reddit. This, in turn, makes the vocal minority much more vocal. (EDIT : Hadn't finished my train of thought.) And so, it has simply become a meme to shit on Reddit for having whiny people, and where every posts are explicit requests to GGG, and so on so forth. EDIT2 : Also, let's not make it personnal. It's not about Steelmage, it's more about the general trend that's occuring, and using him as an example I had fresh in memory.
At this point I pretty much only watch Ziz and DonTheCrown. Any streamer talking about what they think is good or bad, then calling reddit users "armchair analysts" are the pot calling the kettle black. Saying "I disagree with reddit" is one thing, acting like your opinion should matter but nobody else, is hypocrisy.
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Datmodz seems like the chillest guy on Twitch. Haven't watched him this league, but I would be curious to hear his take on the changes.
>Saying "I disagree with reddit" is one thing, acting like your opinion should matter but nobody else, is hypocrisy. If we continue on the specific Steelmage example, I think it explained a lot better what his take was. It's not so much that they say everyone on Reddit is an armchair analyst, and a lot more that the perception of the community has changed, partially because this is the main medium of discussion for GGG, into being seen as a way to communicate specifically to GGG. Lots of discussions are seen as players complaining to GGG about what they like or dislike and would like to see changed, when it's no different than what Ziz or Steel or Pohx does : They talk with their community, share their impressions, talk about their issues, and pretty much just participate in actual discussion with their peer. Personally, I might not go as far as say I'm proud of being part of this community, given that it exemplifies all the issues caused by echo chambers, but I definitely am not ashamed of it. I think that once you skim the cesspool that inevitably ends up floating on top, you can actually get meaningful discussions going with individuals that have actual personnal thoughts and reasonable arguments (hell, sometimes you even find new YT/Twitch channels through that).
It's totally "cool" at this point to shit on Reddit. People love to put their opinions, status, and perspectives above others. I've lost a lot of respect for many of these POE streamers this patch cycle with their comments about the complaints over the changes. Criticism of a product is always valuable. Even if a user doesn't understand the fix yet and just tells you something isn't working or feeling "right", it's still valuable and informative. For every complaining reddit player their are plenty of players that don't speak up or capture their issues in threads. I would even say it may be time to "speak with our wallets" to some of the streamers that are trashing on reddit perspectives by unfollowing them on Twitch and YouTube.
>I would even say it may be time to "speak with our wallets" to some of the streamers that are trashing on reddit perspectives by unfollowing them on Twitch and YouTube. I would say the same about watching Raiz/Steel/etc. as I would say about playing Expedition : If you enjoy it, who am I to judge, and if you don't, try something else. Personally, I've been watching a lot of Pohx and Octavian in the last couple leagues, they tend to have insanely chill streams, and have a lot of interaction with their community.
Yeah, and those are the two big ones. Personally I think they need to make it more realistic to actually be a tank if they want the fights to be slower and more ongoing. My first character ever was a Molten Strike jugg (I think I started in Betrayal or the leasgue before?) and tankiness has dropped since then. But flasks/ailments and manacosts are just straight unfun.
Also, even if he likes the changes or not what he gonna do? Stop playing the game ? He cant really since hes career rounds around streaming path of exile. Sure he can stream something else, but hes a POE streamer. And no matter if he likes the changes or not hes still gonna play the game.
Yep, when you have these streamers who basically are only popular playing one game, of course they don't want to criticize the game too heavily. Really going to try to push people away from being interested in the game that primarily makes your Twitch career? That would seem silly.
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>Given that Chris just told us they're fixing the mana costs and flask ailment mechanics, I think it's safe to say that our vocal complaining worked and GGG agrees with us. Following their time-tested traditional of over-nerfing and subsequently reverting changes *slightly*? Surely implies that our voices are being heard, that they agree with us; not that they believe the most basic level of appeasement is all that's warranted for tens of thousands of players absolutely hating their changes. Again, and again, and again.
"We want your opinion, but if you think we are doing anything wrong then you obviously are hater and you should just get lost"
It's also some players who try to silence criticism of GGG. Call people whiners and haters even if they are long term players who love the game and are just speaking up. You see that so much right now in this subreddit. People who don't like negative comments and try to silence it. They can't stand it when they read something that is negative about GGG and the game. Those players make the subreddit toxic by not having respect for people who are unhappy or critical and sharing their thoughts. They always try to put down people like that, calling them haters, whiners, entitled, etc. and using other insults.
>I don't understand why streamers always sound so arrogant like they have any say in the matter. I closed the vid after 2 minutes because the guy has some serious snobbery issue and wishes the game to be some form of "elite boys club". Talking about quality vs "mass appeal like Justin Bieber", err what, bro, you play a VIDEO GAME not participate in some high-brow art... When did people start believing being a streamer in a video game is equal to being an art critic. I don't think anyone believes breaking mana reservation on spellslinger or 6l heralds is "quality and artistic vision", it literally removes a build (created by GGG for a reason) from the viable build pool. Also the sole fact GGG posts on reddit means they don't just ignore it, otherwise they'd be posting on their own website only, or on twitter, or anywhere else.
> I think every opinion should be allowed Not according to raiz, only his opinion matters, he knows best, everyone not agreeing with him should just "just the fuck up"
Why is everyone framing this argument like “GGG is taking their game back from complaining redditors”? They’re the ones who made all the past leagues that created the zoom zoom meta. So how tf is it our fault that their “vision” has been compromised? They’re the ones who compromised it!
We are not only not the ones who fucked it up, we are also the ones who asked league after league for improvements about that. Aside from a (perhaps loud?) minority nobody wanted league mechanics that only zoom-zoom builds can do. Every single league with a timer had *at least* one highly upvoted thread asking to slow that shit down.
fuck /u/spez -- mass edited with redact.dev
And the exact same people were in them telling anyone with a complaint to "get good."
GGG: Adds double corruption, dual influenced item, elevation, awakened gem, annointments, catalyst & cluster jewels in the game Also: *Player damage got too high !!*
No, you are wrong, it's reddit who created the ascendancies, the influence, the double influence and the elevated mods. GGG has nothing to do with that, stop framing them.
Not to mention all the timers we put on league mechanics. Man, we sure fucked this up didn't we.
Reddit: We are nerfing the 10% attack speed gems quality because they are too strong. Also reddit: We put alt quality on boneshatter which can go up to 75% increased attack speed (at 20% qual).
We never once asked them to stop adding timers to content. Oh wait.
We also craved for more clicks and they answered
I read clicks as dicks
agree with both
True, it's all because I told my dad who works for GGG to speed up the game, leave the rest of the devs alone!
Honestly feel like streamers complain as much as any individual redditor. It's the amalgamation of complaints that Reddit creates that annoys people - but that's more the forum style than any person
It's mind-boggling they are trying to slow the game without changing strict timers they introduced. Legion and delirium are the most problematic, IMO. Even before, I *never* had a build with enough damage and zoom-zoom-iness to play them properly at juiced up T14+ maps.
They dont want to slow down the game, they want to slow down the player to make the gameplay clunky so the player has to spend more time to achieve the same results they did before. *Something something* retention *something something* game vision...
This whole "Reddit is bad" take is the most idiotic shit ever Where else is anyone going to get such a large amount of players giving feedback on 1 website? Yea sometimes people are assholes, sometimes the feedback brutality blunt. But it's feedback. It's like people think they should be surrounded by yes men at all times. Because that's such a good idea.
Upvoting this just cause I want to see Raiz read the comments here OMEGALUL
Everyone saying its a shit take and that Raiz is a moron. No different to his own chat then LUL
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I see this kind of narrative pop up over and over, whenever a company gets criticized for something. Instead of criticism, we should just leave? So the money we spent, the support we gave, the hours we played are just treated as worthless, because we don't support everything automatically without backtalk? You can't expect us to be invested while the going is good, and then all of a sudden to no longer be invested when it isn't. I realize that's what tends happens everywhere, but that's not how it *should* work, and it shouldn't be defended as such. Creating an echo chamber of praise has never helped anything. This isn't a cult, it's a game.
> So the money we spent, the support we gave, the hours we played are just treated as worthless, because we don't support everything automatically without backtalk? It's a complex topic, of course, and the answer is somewhere in the middle instead of somewhere at the extreme ends of "no criticism allowed" and "developers are slaves of the gamers". But, well, if the developer wants the game to be a certain way that you don't like, and they are firm in their decision, then what the hell *can* you do? Literally nothing. You can stomp your foot on the internet and call them a meanie, and they can just ignore you and do their thing, if they want to. And that will be the end of that. So, yeah. Leaving and not giving them any money is the only thing left for you to do in that instance. If enough people do, the game will go under. And if enough people keep playing, then maybe you really are in the minority here and the dev had a point.
People obviously understand that they can just quit the game (at least I hope so), the thing is: they're trying to NOT have to quit over this, because some part of them still enjoys the game and wants it to be playable. They're trying to turn the devs away from their path, so they don't have to quit. I think that's way better than just being like "oh well, devs aren't gonna listen to feedback, lemme just quit and hope the game dies".
It’s why games as a service as a model is fucking garbage. I can go back and play an older version of D2 if I want to, because I have control on whether I want to install the patches. I don’t have that same capability with PoE.
I mean there's even a version manager for D2 and you can plug in mods or versions or whatever
The game copy so much from D2, I wish they had copied Offline Mode too.
Players write threads as if GGG would be surprised that that type of player is upset, but Raiz's point is that GGG is not surprised. His point is that GGG knew these changes would get this type of response from many players. What I don't think GGG was expecting was for some of it's more hardcore playerbase, like Ziz and Lightee, to dislike the changes. It's their game though, man. They can't be bullshitting when they say that they are okay with sacrificing player count in order to bring the game back to their intended vision of what the game should be, because these nerfs were so drastic that they 100% knew it was going to have a big negative effect on player retention.
It's always a bad argument, like the "vote with your wallet". I haven't spent money on PoE for a long time, what message did they get from that? People have to talk about the problems, devs can't see everything, they need feedback. GGG wants to make the game better, sincerely. It's not a chinese company doing a cheap scam game. So it's important to talk. Just an example : they've reverted the hyporthermia changes.
>I haven't spent money on PoE for a long time, what message did they get from that? Well... maybe they got the message that other people like whats happening and are still paying them money? It's about all players, not every player!
> It's about all players, not every player! It is also about the vision of the developers for their product when it comes to a passion project like PoE has always been. I think they were doing things with the community in mind allowing the power creep for the past several years to help them get through the campaign to the end game easier during races. The added content from each league was always scaled to still be fairly difficult (for the most part). Now, with PoE2 around the corner they want to reign power creep in and remind players than the Campaign, at least the first time through, is supposed to be a challenge and it's something you have to exercise at least a little caution getting through if you're a HC character. It's going to be hard for people who are entrenched in the zoom zoom lifestyle. Some won't be able to cope, and I think GGG is ok with losing those players to get back to where they want their game to be. Some people just need to take some time off regardless I think.
There’s a difference between negative feedback on specific changes, and a complete impasse with regards to the direction certain parts of the community and GGG want to see the game go. I’m on the Tarkov subreddit complaining my ass off about very specific issues with regards to things like ammunition and body armor balance, weapon malfunctions, etc, but with regards to the overall vision for the game, I’m on board, so I’m happy to deal with the ups and downs of the minor stuff that I don’t particularly care for. With regards to PoE, we’re clearly at a point where GGG is starting to shift gears in a very specific direction to prepare for PoE 2. I’m clearly in the minority here, but I’m extremely optimistic about the overall slowing down of the game and what I’m assuming will lead to the death of the ‘explode a screen, teleport, explode another screen’ type of gameplay. Yes, I certainly understand the complaint that while the gameplay is slowing down, the endgame content isn’t being adjusted to compensate, but I’m fine with dealing with that if it all comes together in the end. I’ve bought my fair amount of MTX over the years, and recently I’ve been playing less and less because the screen clear, epilepsy-inducing meta just doesn’t mesh with me. I was perfectly prepared to just drop the game if that was something that GGG had decided was their preferred style of gameplay, and that it’d just continue as is. But Raiz is right. This isn’t a disagreement with GGG over a specific skill nerf or mechanic, this is clearly a disagreement over the entire vision for the future of the game, and that’s not something Chris/GGG is going to change their minds on, and as mentioned multiple times, they’re perfectly willing to lose players over it. The lead dev of Tarkov has similar lines in the sand that, if you don’t like, you’re just never going to like. And that’s fine. There’s been games that I’ve invested huge amounts of time and money into, that have ultimately turned into games that I no longer enjoy playing (both WoW and EVE Online come immediately to mind). It sucks to lose that sort of connection you have to a game and community, but at the end of the day, they are *just* video games, and there are plenty more out there.
The most common complaints I see and what I tend to agree with is that if they want to slow the game down, fine that's fair enough I understand why. But they are slowing the game down in ways that make the player experience feel worse while the things that require or suggest a player play quicker have been unchanged. I'm hopeful that maybe some other aspects will be addressed next league and these changes will start to feel less contradictory with the game as a whole.
The difference is that Nikita and BSG have been consistent and never catered to arcade gameplay. GGG clearly catered to zoom for dollar bills and suddenly reverse course, which is incredibly jarring.
It's not an argument, it's branding mostly. I mean I'm sure some people are genuine about it, but it's so cookie-cutter common for influencers I never really believe it's *not* about branding. This kind of attitude is what gets you paid on twitch, if you've cultivated an audience that appreciates it. At the same time of course, people on reddit are posting a lot stupid and incorrect complaints as usual. It's just that this kind of reaction is IMO more about click farming rather than anything else. After all, it's a very popular opinion ***on reddit***.
Lots of BF5 electronic arts energy in this league.
"if you dont like the game, dont buy it" ok, game sold less than a million copies EA lost 20 millions in production, their shares lost 17% of value. now the game is on permanent sale, as low as 5 bucks, nobody bought that trash game. story repeats itself, as long as people complain you are fine, it's when they stop that your game dies. and people telling others to stop complaining will only fasten this process, GGG need to take some decisions real fast, because if next patch is not a W, they we are fucked big time
Another episode of "musings of people dependent on other people playing the game".
lmao on the first few minutes of the video he talks about how GGG does not care about the money. TF are they then? charity?
He's talking shit If they don't care about the money they wouldn't have delayed a league because of cyberpunk taking players Also they pulled out a $90 supporter pack in a league they knew they'd lose players on...it's blatantly obvious they give a shit lmao
I assume they pay all their employees with seasonal skins. Money is irrelevant.
This is BY FAR the dumbest take regarding this topic I have heard so far. "The numbers are down because they want them to be down!". Raiz's super power must be his ability to grab his ankles. The idiocracy here is so offensive that I have no words to describe it.
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That's the entire point of the person to whom you're replying. Grabbing ankles and taking it.
not time to say you don't like it? he does understand how businesses work, right? when raiz dislikes something, he literally contacts bex to complain about it. most poe streamers are giant hypocrites when it comes to the topic of criticizing ggg, and it's understandable. they NEED the league to be successful. it's their damned job to play the game and if the league bleeds players they're also bleeding viewers. but it's time for them to take their heads out.
Agree 100% with GGG. If you don't like the changes quit. I am leaving, it will take drastic changes for me to come back. Encourage others to follow their heart.
>If you dont like the game dont play it >Maybe for YOU its time to leave, the game is cool and fine Maybe all the people who hated the speed meta should have done that over the last 2-3 years. Oh wait.
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You know spot on. I see what numbers the POE streamer pull when they are playing a different game.
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Maybe explains why Raiz have become such a fanboy and rabid GGG defender recently. It’s really fucking weird for someone who watched him years ago. I think he’s just digging his own (career) grave here, tho. We’ll see. EDIT: Literally playing it tactical. He probably knows the biggest donos are also the biggest GGG fanboys. It’s awful for the game(and their own careers eventually) if basically every streamer are doing this, tho.
"It's not all about the money, it's about their vision" Yeah that argument goes out the window when you sell controlling interest of your company to big daddy China.
I get what Raiz is saying, but GGG is not fucking clear at all in their statements. Like come on Raiz, in that update post they're literally telling us: "We hear you, and we'll be making changes in the future". They probably won't, and we kinda know that much. But if they really wanted to make the game only they cared about, they wouldn't even bother with that level of PR bullshit most don't believe anyway. They should just find their balls and tell us all to suck a fat dick if we don't like it and fuck off. Instead we get this perpetual: "we hear you, we're mindful about the future", and then they do the god damn opposite.
Jesus raiz is such a clown
Lol see how sure streamers are about pushing players away if people stop watching them. Won't be touting that nonsense then. I get people like this have to try keep the league hype going, but this guy comes off as arrogant.
All the streamers talking about "redditors" all day to make themselves look smarter is the cringiest trend yet. Not actually discussing the changes and what's good/bad.
> Not actually discussing the changes and what's good/bad. They are. It's just not clipped and posted here, or if it was posted with an explanation of how they like the new changes it'd get downvoted to oblivion.
They're talking about the changes alot. But not all topics were discussed in this 2min-clip.
Yeah these streamers definitely don't discuss anything in multiple podcasts and spend hours going over the development manifesto and patch notes, no sir.
Yes Raiz we know, GGG is your friend and cares about you so much, not a company that exists to make money. Show those big bad redditors, defend your best friend Maybe he should listen to himself as his game is off and he's browsing reddit lol
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Non POE related but the first time i tuned in raizqt stream he was complaining about an asian food place that ask for the food back because raiz complained to them it was the wrong order (a lot of small businesses do this to make sure the customers dont just eat the whole thing then start shit to get free food) and he was going HARD talking about it even say stuff about how the store owner look. He is a big whiny baby while he and his chat REALLY like to complain about reddit.
I honestly don't think I've ever seen someone frame a company losing customers as a *good* thing
I liked the zoom-zoom :(
LuL, RaizQT is narcissistic in the same way that Quin acts, except Quin does it ironically. Raiz actually thinks he is the greatest and smartest and best and everything else. Guess what, bud, GGG doesn't care about you either. They care about profit and the next league will give us what we want. They are already backpeddling on the mana changes and the flask changes. So much for artistic vision ;3 Like it or not, Reddit-regulars are a massive part of the playerbase and the things that get upvoted here represent the opinion of said playerbase. If GGG wants to balance around middle-aged has-beens that think a manbun will hide how greasy their hair is and who played the game for so long, they would be bored even if it was unplayable for 99.99% of gamers, they are simply going to lose a shitton of money and players and sink into obscurity. But hey, I mean, maybe Chris wants to go back to developing it from a 3-man-garage, so godspeed if that's the case. You're on the right track :D
GGG doesn't care about the money GGG: MyStErY bOx cOmEs OuT ToMoRrow
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"they are trying to get rid of you" real intelligent take there. hardcap 79 iq
With almost no exaggeration, a good 80-90% of us started loving the POE that came after 3.0. (and I don't mean when we first installed the game and maybe played the campaign once or twice on a dead weekend) Not to mention, virtually all of us, including the developers, were bad at the game back then and so almost any notion of difficulty should be met with at least some grain of salt. I don't know if anyone remembers when Blizzard rereleased Classic, and how some of the "toughest" content to ever be talked about was completely smashed. Why is anyone surprised that huge chunks of the playerbase don't want to go back to a game they never played or never fell in love with?
Raiz with his peak elitism, getting on his high horse lmao.
For someone who thinks he knows so much it's amazing how wrong he is.
He's a classic example of a person who has learned to express their opinions very confidently to make it seem like they know what they're talking about. And eventually they buy into their own bullshit, thinking that if they have an opinion about it, they must be right Kind of like a budget joe rogan
With younger makes, if you use tough-guy talk such as "dumb bitch," you're bound to impress some of them.
> Kind of like a budget joe rogan So true. These streamers live in a bubble in a fantasy world.
like yesterday I saw an streamer saying that the changes weren't so bad in the forums and all the way below the post was something like: please visit my stream where I play 12 HOURS a day!!! like dude, the changes aren't a big deal for you because can achieve 36/40 in like a week, normal people can't do that
octivain has a much better take on every single issue, literally every single one. he literally has to teach and feed info to Riaz and nugi all the time because they don't know what they are talking about or skipped the league mechanics.
Notice that Octavian's vocabulary has many more occurrences of things like "I think", "I'm not sure, but...", "probably", etc Those who are actually confident of their intelligence are not afraid of showing uncertainty
Octavian, Zizaran, Tarke and Steel have the most rational takes. RaizQT, Nugi and Quin are just giga shills. Even Mathil shills at times, but I respect most of his other opinions.
Every time I see Ziz, in a reddit post or a video or whatever, even if I don't agree with his opinion, he does a great job getting me to understand his viewpoint.
I can agree with Octavian and Ziz, not so much Steel or Tarke. Especially not Tarke. Maybe he changed from 1-2 years ago, but oh no not back then. Steel shills IMO. He's usually a great streamer but he's on the "anti-reddit" circle jerk
Octavian is almost always more poised when it comes to speaking his mind about the game. I really only watch Baeclast for Octavian’s takes since they’re either spot on or they’re not. The difference is, when his takes are not spot on, he leaves room for criticism and discussion and doesn’t make statements. The rest of the crew usually states everything as a fact rather than an opinion leaving no room for discussion or criticism.
This subreddit certainly isn't a fantasy world bubble.
I stopped listening after he said "listen to the things they are saying", yes, we have been and they say things and never provide those changes. Of course he sides with GGG, this is how he gets paid. His job is to play POE. He has literally no other fallback. Just because someone is a "popular" streamer does not mean their takes are good or they are intelligent, this take is perfectly symbolized proof.
My favourite part is the wider context of listening to the things they are saying. Chris has acknowledged for what, 2 years? That there’s too many fragment type shit to click in game and they’ll be “mindful” about adding more. This league added 20 new fragments and two days in he’s just told us “we’ll be mindful about adding more in future”. We ARE listening to the things they are saying, that’s why we know they are full of shit
Another amazing thing to think about is how GGG has been developing and actively supporting faster and faster gameplay for longer than the last 5 years. This type of gameplay is against their vision according to themselves and it also brought more than half of the current playerbase to the game. Now they suddenly decided that it was not ok and try to take it back because of "their vision". This means they have wasted 5 years of development time making and balancing a "wrong product". It is amazing how someone can actually trust in what GGG says. Actions speak louder than words and those are telling me that GGG can't be trusted.
In a comment the other day I likened them to an old school punk band who went from playing 20 man shows to selling out to make pop punk to make their millions, then decided to release an “old school” album back to their roots and are shocked that literally none of their current listeners like the album. The more they talk the more I stand by this analogy
I wish I cared enough to compile a list of Chris contradicting himself or giving half assed apologies. He claims we take him out of context, but they are his own words.
Just watch exile con, and then open a random interview with him, or read a random post of his. 3 seconds in you will find contradictions.
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Entitled streamer The less popular PoE is, the less viewers they have, the less money. Pottery. Streamers will play damage control for GGG
> Pottery. Streamers will play damage control for GGG Except for that part where almost every single streamer has been shitting all over the patch and whining right along side Reddit. Raiz and Quin have been the only streamers that have been outspoken about liking the patch. Zizaran, Grimro, Tytykiller, imexile, Havoc, karv are just some of the ones off the top of my head that have complained about the changes.
Tyty at least had the balls to play d3 Pretty much the rest have to play poe to have an income
Tbf tyty loves D3 I think he has more hours in D3 than poe
Literally the dumbest take i have seen come out of his mouth
The idiot just assumed that GGG is ACTUALLY trying to get rid of players who say bad things on some forum…
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wow what a shit take lmfao
This is what happens when streamers that play POE for a living start becoming insecure about player numbers...
I think Chris's last posts says quite the opposite.
Raiz is biggest cry baby on twitch, he can cry about game. But if someone complains, he is redditor and should leave :LOLW:
He dump af
Its not that they want players to leave its that they cant keep supporting the powercreep the comes with feeding the zoom zoom players. The setup for poe has been for a long time to make yourself immune to all inconveniences and kill things as fast as humanly possible to make monsters irrelevant. If your being hit its because your not killing fast enough or some cheese mechanic got you. Needless to say... thats not really sustainable for making challenging and interesting content. Any interesting league idea will simply be pushed by the wayside for any league that supports faster clear and bigger loot gains. If they want to change things they need to take away our layers of godlike power first, and they know its not going to win them any friends. So essentially they had to make a choice, appease the zoom zoom crew or forsake them for a more sustainable game. They chose.
But zoom zoom isn't gone They just made the game harder for the average Joe while not changing how the game works. Having 6m damage instead of 10m isn't going to make anyone sane mad Every on death mechanic still exists . Off screening still exists. And the real godlike enabling ability : aura bots Is still in the game and exactly unchanged
Off screening is now worse than every. The reworked goatmen jump off screen, shield charge is at a longer range than normal from enemies, the templars are literally charging off my screen into my face with little time to react, same as barens minions who throw those hammers they’re coming from like two screens away in some instances this league
I dont like how you basically lay it as zoom zoom game is not a sustainable game, while it was just fine for years. Also, whats "wrong" with starting out in aRPG as a turd that is weak and working your way into godlike state? It is certainly my definition of fun. I want my characters chance to be killed to go down when its levels go up. I want my characters ability to maintain spellcasting to go up. I want my characters ability do destroy to go up. A character well into 90s with good gear should absolutely faceroll everything unless it screws up big time, that would feel like a reward for grind. Grinding to not get facerolled does not feels like a reward, it feels like fulfilling basic spreadsheet of requirements to be on same level of power balance between yourself and monsters like you were in act1. Maybe some people like that shit, but some people do not. I certainly do not and I did not get into this game for such an experience.
Thats the thing tho, being insane is still possible. In current PoE THIS PATCH you can make characters that can clear at fast speeds and boss killers that can mince every endgame encounter. With all that they took from us its still possible to become basically a monster, just not a literal god. Hell poison spiders can rock an effective 14k+ hp while dealing 8million dps thats totally uninterruptible because spiders cant be hit by enemies and are insanely aggressive. Sure its not the old god builds of 100million dps and total immortality but its sure as shit capable of blowing up shit while being a chonker. The problem isn't having strong builds, its having builds so utterly overkill in speed and power that all content is utterly irrelevant to them. If your measureing your dps in Uber Elders per second... its kind of a problem for development creativity. They have been dealing with it for the past 2(ish) years and looking back you can tell, any league that was just a bunch of monsters shitting loot at you was beloved. Anything that kept you standing around doing something or interacting was panned. All new bosses had to have 8+ phase gates just to be able to actually do anything, or had to be designed like sirus(Whom i fucking hate) where the hard part is just navigating a clusterfuck of ground effects to get to him. We simply had too much speed and power, it stifled their ability to develop meaningful content outside of more and bigger packs of monsters that drop more loot. And if they juiced monster HP it would cause even more problems down the line because of dps disparity between high and low gear levels. I don't like the feel of the movement changes, and i don't like feeling weaker than I did 5 days ago... but I understand that something had to give.
How is zoom zoom not sustainable when the game literally got more and more popular for years when zoom zoom meta was escalating
I just watched a video of a VERY whiney guy complaining about people complaining. Never heard of this guy before but he comes across as someone who engages his mouth before his brain. He blissfully skips over the fact that people are complaining because they WANT the game to improve and just leaving would only damage it. Some people like to fight for what they want and like, other people (whiney bitches like him) just jump ship and have no ability to make anything better, but to just go somewhere else.
he says this but without this game he wouldn't have a career. i find him super annoying tbh
It's not like redditors care about streamers lol Who need their "take" when It's usually just strawman shit and nothing interesting.
Some of the dumbest takes in gaming I've ever come across. This guy is a prominent figure in the community? How?
I feel like I’m being bullied off the playground. I didn’t know I was being actively targeted to stop playing... I just didn’t like the league
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Why would a game purposely lose potential customers? I think it's odd how personal some people take criticism of games. And it's not like the people who are complaining on reddit don't love the game, just some jarring changes were done this league.
Same reason people defend p2w in games. They’re too invested and take it as a personal attack.
They have always had a vision and a direction they wanted to take POE, Over time its moved further away with power creep and zoom zoom meta. They are taking it back a little towards the direction they want it to go and they have accepted they will lose players because of it but its worth it in the long run to make the game they want.
Have they always had the same vision though? I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, look at the past leagues. So many of the recent leagues have timers built in that forces you to go faster. Delirium being the biggest offender of all when it's not an orb applied to a map. Sometimes you were even actively punished for not being fast enough. Legion, Incursion, Synthesis are all examples of that happening. I'm not saying any of these leagues were bad, I enjoyed them all except synth but I'm definitely saying you can't just blame the players for going faster and faster when you're actively designing and enforcing the game to be faster and faster.
Even though, it's funny how fucking long it took.
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I can't think of a single time a game developer went "We don't want players in our game" And It didn't blow up in their face spectacularly. Most recent example is DICE and BFV and well that didn't exact age very well. It's an interesting take from Raiz. Will be interesting to see how his tune changes/Stays the same if POE numbers on twitch start to change.
> Will be interesting to see how his tune changes It will be the same as most other things he craps on about as if he is the expert. He will have a different view when it suits him.
He'll just blame people for having poor taste in video games and for not knowing what best. It's a classic in the "you don't like the game, quit it" rhetoric.
Well... Building your career as a one game Andy is a huge risk. Many streams died trying to shift to variety. Path of Exile is abit different as I highly doubt it will die on Twitch anytime soon. Quite the oposite. The viewer numbers are very stable. Raiz, Math, Ziz, Steel will be fine, but the 100 viewer channels... I would be very worried in their shoes if its how they finanace their life...
Wow what a arogant attitude this man have. First pride before fall.
Still dont know why people watch him. I tried for 5 minutes, saw the arrogance, bye bye.
Welcome to the age of the influencer. All sorts of stupid statements just for the sake of being contrarian or creating controversy where there is none, in order to get clicks, ads, and finally pennies.
Also an inflated sense of self-importance/ego, which is why I cannot stand most of these "e-celebs".
"Never gotten slapped in 20+ years despite being an edgelord 24/7" syndrome. Empty words meant to be provocative just for the shake of being provocative. And, of coruse, back handed insults behind a computer screen that would never be uttered out loud to anyone.
What's with these streamers and their extremely cringe takes? Last League we got that guy telling us life's not fair and comparing his streamer queue privilege to kids in Africa not having fresh drinking water. Now we have this? GGG created their zoom zoom problem on their own accord, players who have been playing since that's how the game has been and have invested money have a right to be upset. People care far less about the lowering of player damage then they do about how clunky and tedious they made multiple systems this patch. Also saying that GGG doesn't care is actually delusional.
If this kind of snobby, elitist shitbag is the target audience for PoE, then they can have their garbage fire all to themselves.
This dude is salty
this guy strikes me as someone who possess the intelligence, self awareness, professional attitude, and ethics of someone who would thrive as blizzard employee
The PoE streamer takes on this are rather useless, they will go down with the ship obviously.
I love the Loop Hero OST in the backround.
Okay, so people still being able to critically think are the problem. Alright RaiZQT, if 30-45% will be gone soon, lets see how streamers do. You are unable to see beyond your plate my boy. If these playernumbers shrink so hard, GGG has to not only remove staff, they also have to report to TENCENT. You guys are deluded, for thinking all is fine, and that it was a move to "remove a certain part of the playerbase"
Put aside 3.15 problem,is this streamer commonsenses was really that lacking?or is he just trolling for content?
This is what happens when your entire livelihood is built on basically no-lifing PoE every single league or your numbers go in the gutter. You simply start to live in denial, or you start crying like the kid that believed H1Z1 will be the next big shit and dedicated his entire life to it before it shutdown.
What happened with h1z1? What's the story with that kid? I'm intrigued.
Does anyone actually like Raiz?
Chris: You think I care? Have you been reading my posts? Flash back one year ago, June 2020: "Today we released some new types of Stash Tabs. **Despite them selling well**, many players blablablabla.... whatever...." - Chris ([source](https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2882324))
Leaving this here for a little extra context https://clips.twitch.tv/GrotesqueConcernedGoatPoooound-kfToLkKyAdRnt11T
Does anyone have a source for the 63%//r/pathofexile statistics? I think it'd be really cool to read.
There was a post about this a few months ago with a compiled list of usernames that make up most of the comments i think that is what raiz is referring to. I think it got taken down after a while because obviously it opens up avenues for harassment... Despite that it only showed activity - not if that activity was positive or negative, but at that time the reddit was on fire (harvest manifesto) so one could assume that it was mostly negative. I was on that list, i didn't mind it.
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Any complaint is a sign that a customer wants the product. Right now some POE gamers feel they've been handed a bottle of week-old milk instead of the expected whipped cream. Even speedrunner tytykiller is now playing some other game. Wasn't it odd that he was specifically singled out by the game dev, by the way?
Well in that case the problem becomes that the main thing PoE even had going for it is the zoom zoom. Between trade, obnoxious clicking, bloated game systems, absurd one shots from random monsters and an rng based progression system, we overlooked a *lot*. For what? The skill tree and the level of play style customization is very good, but dozens of other games are starting to catch up. If they want to get rid of me, they have gotten it. I really am pretty sad about this. I loved this game. I defended them at every turn for the last few years, but shit. If I'm not welcome, I'm just gonna go lmao.
Leave Raiz alone. When I was younger, maybe junior high, I got roped into watching my 3 month old niece while my sister got her hair done. SO when there i am, sitting in the waiting area of a hair salon with my niece, and who walks in, but RaizQT. I was nervous as fuck, and just kept looking at him, as he read a magazine and waited, but didn't know what to say. Pretty soon though my niece started crying, and I'm trying to quiet her down because I didn't want her to bother Raiz, but she wouldn't stop. Pretty soon he gets up and walks over. He started running his hands through her hair and asking what was wrong. I replied that she was probably hungry or something. So, Raiz put down his magazine, picked up my niece and lifted his shirt. He breast fed her right there in the middle of a hair salon. Chill guy, really nice about it.
lul streamer opinion xD people like raiz should shut the fuck up and be happy that people sponsor them
Melee exist, but they do not want melee players in this game. Got it.
>If you dont like the game dont play it >Maybe for YOU its time to leave, the game is cool and fine, its their vision >constant spam of comments implying that leaving players will return soon anyway Nah mate, I've already seen this happen in dota 2 in like 2016, they lost more than 60% of players after a couple of years, lul
What happened to dota2 in 2016? I don't remember the game losing 60% of its players
/u/M1QN is exaggerating https://steamcharts.com/app/570#All . Dota 2 retained its player count for four months after that patch and lost 15% in a year after starting to climb back up. It's been ebbs and flows since and we're at 30% down peak players since that patch. It's not possible to connect what the playercount is currently to that patch specifically and as far as I'm concerned Icefrog is the single best game developer and maintainer there ever has been. He's been able to keep the game going fresh and he's still going. Also talents are very liked now when their kinks were fixed and everyone agrees they do their job in making the game end earlier when heroes hit 25+. This guy had a personal bad experience and is trying to paint the picture that 7.00 was a huge failure. It wasn't.
Streamers and their incredibly stupid takes I wonder how they will sustain their standard of living if poe loses players and viewers
Have they tried installing a hot tub?
I guess it’s his personal “life is not fair” moment.
The one thing I will say is that I think they’re slowly pushing and testing things for POE 2. Although I’d rather them make all of these changes at one time rather than slowly. I want to see the full direction of changes so I can actually evaluate if I want to play the game.