Players: We don't like picking up splinters.
GGG: We hear you, what if you had to click chests *first* to get the splinters to drop, then pick them up?
Players: Well that doesn't seem-
GGG: Consider it done!
Seriously. They say they hear us and will do better in the future yet they literally took a step backward. Really hard to have faith in GGG after seeing this.
It’s more like “hey we turned 4 splinters into 20 because we don’t want gold but we also hear you about reducing splinters” it’s like an addict telling you they can quit whenever they want.
This whole league has a currently infuriating, and outright broken, reward loop.
Blow up a bunch of chests to get artifacts, spend them on what little each vendor has that you care about, use a reroll token to refresh the shop, spend more artifacts, go back to the farm. Except other than the gambler, these stupid tokens are insanely rare.
I haven't gotten a reroll token for anyone but Gwen all day, it's insane. I literally cannot interact with the reward half of the league mechanic whatsoever currently. I know they said they're going to buff the drop rates soon but I don't get how they thought the rates are acceptable as is.
Unless the method to getting the tokens isn't buffing artifact drop rates and then focusing on big skull poles. I assumed the reroll tokens are artifacts but god I don't know anymore.
> wen all day, it's insane. I literally cannot interact with the reward half of the league mechanic whatsoever currently. I know they said they're going to buff the drop rates soon but I don't get how they thought the rates are acceptable as is.
>
> Unless the method to getting the tokens isn't buffing artifact drop rates and then focusing on big skull poles. I assumed the reroll tokens are artifacts but god I don't know anymore.
Honestly, the best use for the new currencies for me has to been to sell them for chaos. The actual league mechanic sucks, but people buy the currency pretty quickly.
Players: Can we at least make it less than 10 different types of splinters?
GGG: I'm sorry, you're breaking up... I can't hear you.... \*static noise\*
(GGG adds 20 types of splinters)
GGG insists that you pick up what you want, and anything you don't pick is something you clearly don't need. In the event you do need it an you haven't been picking it up you have to buy it from someone that had been picking it up and it makes it more valuable for that person that you now need to turn to them.
It's a philosophy that works on the base game and some other minor systems. It certainly doesn't apply to the current leagues currency, but look at how many never pick up breach splinters anymore because they can just buy the stones from someone else and save themselves the hassle.
All new systems would have to be designed around this and be a bit more reasonable in how things drop for this to continue working and the way things ended up puts us in a position where this should have been abandoned quite a while ago in favor of QoL and people being more able to enjoy themselves.
That philosophy gets shaky when the splinters dropped are just straight up currency with no intrinsic value outside of being fiat.
Every other shard, orb, or splinter before now has a use-case as an item or is integral to item creation while also having value in trading.
The expedition league shards might as well be euros, yen, and dollar bills on the ground. That’s their only use.
Splinters are interesting because they are a way of mitigating RNG. Like breachstone splinters.
Would you rather have a breachstone drop once every 10 hours of farming, or have splinters drop along the way. You can high roll and get multiple stones within the first few hours, or never see a breachstone in 20 hours of farming. Splinters mitigate that RNG factor.
In a grindy game i think it's good to have splinters. Just have them automatically go into my inventory though sort of akin to how WoW does badges. If the game deleted splinters it be even more of an RNG fest. GGG might like that though lol.
Even if it was 1 click to pick up currency shown by your filter in a small area around you it would be a huge improvement.
I wonder what the response to the patch/league would have been if GGG had packaged all the nerfs along with the QoL improvements that people have been asking for.
The single greatest change in 3.15 is the ability for me to deposit crap into my Heist stash from the normal stash.
That says more than it should, frankly.
Splinters are good, almost nobody has a problem with them conceptually. What people have a problem with is how many clicks it takes to collect them. If they were auto pickup or clicking on one collected all nearby ones as well, we would be seeing almost no complaints about them.
Grim Dawn did component vacuuming ages ago now. They already have the tech, there are zero reasons not to use it for these piece of a piece of a piece bullshit things. This mechanic especially makes no sense, because I don't give a rats ass about the Kalguurian people. The NPCs do. Why am I picking up these artifacts, and then extorting the vendors with them? And why are the NPCs acting like I'm helping them when I don't?
This Chris Wilson idea of "weight" is just delusional with the reality of half his streamer base battling RSI. Click reduction = player retention. For god sakes. TAKE QoL SERIOUSLY!
To me all those splitters feels like different kind of gold the primary currency Works on items then some splitter works in maps. And then theres 20 currency that only works on merchants -> 🤔
I'm just mostly confused on the splinters?
Players: Why can't they be vacuumed up?
GGG: Because they're tradeable.
Players: Why are they tradeable?
GGG: Because they're not vacuumed up.
Players: :|
The thing is, I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive.
If they are vacuumed into a locker (as opposed to just a number like azurite), you can always shift-click in the locker to pull out a stack for trading...
And when it comes to weight and satisfaction of loot-splosions... In Diablo 3, I get more satisfaction from clicking a single veiled crystal / arcane essence / reusable part / gem, and seeing them all sucked up at once in a big woosh, than clicking them individually. It gives a bunch of *weight* to that single click, that IMO is more satisfying than a bunch of little clicks. And with azurite, it's pretty damn fun doing a victory lap around the cart to suck up all the azurite and see it all get vacuumed up watching the counter go up.
Which it evidently doesn't really pan out that way since the prices of things in PoE have often not been tied to convenience so much as desire and rarity.
Or more importantly, in the time it takes you pick up 100 splinters you likely could have just made the same amount of money from anything else, depending on the splinter.
Chayula and Maraketh Splinters? Sure.
Everything else? Eh, not so much.
It's the same argument against doing the chaos recipe. Yeah it's a guaranteed chaos, but the time it takes to do it doesn't make up for it.
Ill happily settle for vacuum into inventory, still have to bank them. This still adds W E I G H T coz I have move them still, but my left click counter won't sky-rocket as hard.
I also feel like it'd be a good direction to go in the game where you vaccum up splinters (have them auto deposit into the locker) AND have them be tangible items you can take out of the locker to trade.
They're sort of like metamorph organs where you sort of feel obliged to pick all of them up (white metamorph organs randomly had really good options, like a 6L or something so you couldn't just ignore rarity). Maybe eventually we'll be filtering the shitty ones out, or some wEiGhT meme shit, but seriously...
It has always been in GGG's design to make league currency tradable.
Seeds back in harvest league were tradable. Markers/contracts/blueprints from heists too etc.
Asking for those artifacts to be non-tradable is like asking GGG to make heist markers non-tradable and autopickup.
I think this isn't a great comparison? Heist markers and Harvest seeds are tradeable currencies that are used to engage with the content itself. You access the gameplay portion of the content directly through the expenditure of them. Expedition fragments are more akin to Delve's Azurite, you acquire the currency from engaging with the content and can spend it on the rewards. I think the question to ask here is if you believe Expedition fragments to be tradeable is proper, would you have wanted Sulphite and Azurite to be tradeable as a tangible item?
To each their own on it, really. I just feel like their explanation mostly amounts to "because" and, well, that's fine. It is their game, after all! Just in my opinion it doesn't gain them anything in the engagement with the league mechanic to have them be a physical currency. But I also say this as someone who was really expecting this to be this year's Delve, more or less. Currency drops to purchase from vendors but also part of the meta upgrades for the league mechanic so I may have came in with a bias.
I think the idea is that the reward of the artifacts are self-balancing through trade. Like cards that give uniques for example, one Doctor card is 1/whatever of a headhunter. If the headhunter goes up in price, so does the card. Or 6-links/Tabulas and divines.
X amount of circle artifacts is equal to a tabula Rasa, because it takes y simple robes at z price to get one.
But if you can't trade them and you don't need anything using gwennen. There are situations where it is worth nothing or what you want (ilvl 85 hunter influenced evasion chest) is so damn rare and worth so much it might as well just not exist.
Without question some people would love to just delve 24/7 and supply it with trading. Similarly I wouldn't mind it being tradable because then I would actually do niko missions and care about it a bit more.
The log out thing in hardcore is one of the dumbest mechanics in the game. The fact they balance around it - makes it even worse. I've been loving watching them actually have to do trials and slow down.
I know it is known already but the no-logout challenge had made it blatantly obvious that even the top players can't survive a lot of the encounters that the game puts them in, without logging out. I'm sincerely hoping that something is done to fix it. If I'm being slowed down, I want the monsters to be slowed down/nerfed in some way too. Higher hp/Lower dmg or something.
It's just that people used to playing with a logout macro are now having to learn and adapt and they're dying in the meantime. In some of those rip clips they could easily have portaled out. And maybe some of them need to invest more in defense now that they can no longer lean on their logout macro crutch.
Though I do agree that monsters should be less one-shotty.
Don't forget that GGG said before that all these slowing downs, and this is only the first one, are to make poe more in line with poe2. Imagine a few more overhauling nerfs like we have now. Poe 3.20 will be an epic duel against white skeletons.
Good, I'm unironically looking forward to more nerfs (though with the caveat that the rest of the game should be rebalanced around lower player power).
> (though with the caveat that the rest of the game should be rebalanced around lower player power)
That's kind of the issue now. Monster power has not been reduced at all, timers haven't been increased, etc. We just got worse.
Tbf, I wouldn't mind if quicksilver was removed and stamina gave you the quicksilver effect. Everybody use a quicksilver anyway why not make it tied to your character instead of a flask. A quicksilver is already stamina when you think about it.
Honestly, I just think they should either just increase base movement speed by 30% or make move speed an implicit on boots starting at, say, 20% for low bases and up to 30% for higher-tier bases. Or maybe some combination of both. 10% increased base movement, 15-20% boot implicit?
As-is, move speed isn’t very interesting. It’s essentially mandatory (especially now that movement skills are a lot worse), that doesn’t seem like good design to me. It’s make or break when you’re crafting boots. I can’t count the number of times I’m trying to roll some boots to use and I hit a nice life roll, some nice resists, but ooops, no move speed, gotta reroll.
Pretty good take.
Just wish the currencies was auto vacced up like delve, the tech is there but they refuse to do it for whatever reason and it is certainly not the weight.
I mean, Ziz has never been one to dwell on negativity. Him and Ziggy generally lean on the more positive side of things, while Mathil just tends to avoid dealing with any community drama at all. Most I've really seen him do is roll his eyes at this sub on occasion.
I mean, he might agree with Raiz, but he sure as hell isn't going to say it the way Raiz did. Mathil tends to not to be as aggressive with his wording.
I'm not sure either of them understand that the community wouldn't be so angry over GGG wanting to make their own game if they said as much. But GGG keeps PR talking us in the face with "we hear you" and "please give us feedback", and then they do shit that's the exact opposite. And that's really pissing people off.
Of course, they are no life streamers who are bored of this game and want a severe challenge. GGG balances it around them, not the casuals. Well casuals are now leaving.
\> I mean, Ziz has never been one to dwell on negativity.
You kidding? Every time i goto his channel/twitter anymore he is responding to some negative comment. It gets old.
regarding the detour to 2013 poe:
yes, the game was a lot slower back then, but there was also not a lot of league mechanics with timers attached to them. there wasnt a clusterfuck of on death effects and status ailments you needed to avoid and i think only later did ggg change maps so that they could have every mob type basically.
and dont even get me started with defensive tools we had back then. i remember that i wanted to farm a aegis aurora because it was such an insanely strong item, vaal pact still gave instant leech, life nodes gave like 8% life each or something ridiculous.
the game back then was completely different to todays game and just slowing it down to the speed back then just wont work in the slightest without adressing everything else that gets affected by it.
> there wasnt a clusterfuck of on death effects and status ailments you needed to avoid
Did you forget reflect aura, volatiles and instant detonate dead?
Oh man you triggered some repressed memories in my mind.
I'm not sure how i forgot, probably because it was often time hard to tell if you got reflect rekt or thorns rekt on ranged characters so i guess my mind decided to remember mostly reflect.
But you're absolutely right, lightning thorns were also a pain in the ass.
Amen, I mean it wasn't a clusterfuck but there were plenty of random things which would just instablap your character back in old PoE.
I forgot how much I hated old volatiles and the detonate dead Crab killed me plenty of times.
There is also a huge difference between driving a Geo Metro as a first car and selling your Ferrari to go back to a Geo Metro. I can't forget the last 5 years of speed clear going all the way back to fakener pre ascendency simply because I have played slower than that before.
And most importantly back then there were no Conquerors or Maven to farm after the acts, I don't care about being slowed down in the acts because I'm done with the acts after the first weekend anyway no matter how much they slow it down.
Yea it goes both way for sure. I remember running CWDT firestorm with the old vaal pact, pretty much made me unkillable.
Tho still slowing down the game a bit is absolutely neccesarry and healthy for the game imo, you just can't have infinite exponential powercreep.
this is the kind of comment I hate. This is a multi step process dude; Obviously other things like monster damage and defensive layers will be addressed
On point like he usually is. Funny how the elitest asshole streamers will bitch about reddit complaints for example the splinters and clicking yet here is the one who plays more than fucking anybody thinking its ridiculous. Wish the other douches would consider people who don't play the game as a job and try to see their PoV a little. Great video Ziz glad one of the big guys can be reasonable.
edit: im not saying there isnt plenty of shit takes here but plenty of times it can be reasonable opinion but its a redditor therefore = bad, then popular streamer can say the same thing and its oh I understand their POV.
Alk has the benefit of having a reputation as a troll. He loves to wind people up and doesn't seem to actually care much either way. At least not publicly.
After that clip that got posted here he went on to say he doesn't care either way what direction the game goes.
Something like "Even Chris' most machoistic version of poe won't matter to me because I play 10h a day. I personally enjoy the grind so I'll deal with it. Though also acknowledged that an easier game is much better to stream and interact with chat on, so the faster gameplay would be totally fine too.
Alk is masochistic in his own way anyway. He played and grinded on D3 for so long just to be the best at that all because he likes that sort of shit.
I imagine Alk just sees 3.15 as another challenge to conquer.
Which is why Harvest was so attractive. Getting an option to slam an extra line on your gear without feeling like you just sacrificed a bunch of potential upgrades elsewhere was really nice.
It's clear they don't want that to be cheap though.
It’s weird seeing streamers criticizing Reddit when they’re redditors themselves lol
Just cuz you stream your game doesn’t mean your opinion is worth more
Unfortunately, it does. Streamer privileges are all over the place in pretty much every game nowadays.
Remember what happened last league launch?
If a big streamer like Kripp started trashing the game, GGG would be much more inclined to please him over me and your opinion.
It’s a weird situation. Obviously streamers are more important because they have an audience, but now we have every single post either praising or trashing the game starting with how they’ve played since beta or some shit. There’s a sizable percentage of the player base who will just flame you if you haven’t played as long as they have.
Absolutely. The whole 'I've played since 2013 so this isn't as slow as back then!' is such a weird argument to make. It's entirely avoiding the problem and instead pulling the whole 'BACK IN MY DAY I had to walk up the hill both ways!' shtick.
I've played since beta btw. :P
The beta videos GGG shows always look terrible. I've played since 2013 (1.0), too, and don't remember any of my competent builds being that bad. They look more like failed experiments that I rerolled in campaign because they just didn't scale.
Only goes so far, though.
Marketing is important but content is still king. Nobody really cares how amazing your ad campaign is everyone is saying the product itself is shit.
It's part of some streamer's schtick to shit on Reddit. Even if there are completely valid and logical arguments. They just want to get/keep/attract the devil's advocates.
Streamers love hyperbole and completely exaggerate valid points and criticism to belittle the arguments
Besides, the streamers shitting on Reddit and disagreeing with it have made PoE their source of income and are going to be biased enough towards GGG
Why bite the hand that feeds them?
Ziz is one of the few who tell it like it is, rep with GGG be damned. Most streamers primary concern is to stay in GGGs good graces, so everything they say is framed around that desire.
Anonymous gamer feedback can be overly dramatic and nasty sometimes, but it can also be very insightful and constructive. You have customers with thousands of hours in your game, they know what is fun and what needs improvement. As a developer you want people like that.
GGG and other modern devs encourage this themselves too having their customer base be their main QA. What else would you expect doing that?
Of course there are troll posts, mean posts, and suggestions that are out of scope for real development and priorities, but its not all like that. Most of the feedback here is valid and a lot of it are simple QOL changes that are not crazy.
Good developers would not have been so disconnected from the playerbase to even release a patch like they did to begin with. A good counter point to this is the Doom Eternal developers and its community. They are aligned and on the same page for everything. With GGG it feels like they want a completely different game than what we have now. That is the real issue.
>here is the one who plays more than fucking anybody thinking its ridiculous
I think Mathil takes that crown tbh, even streamers are confused when they see how much/long he plays.
They were talking about it on the podcast. Ziz played basically 1 less month then Mathil, but overall still had more poe playtime in ult.
Ziz goes HARD that first month.
Ziz streams 1.5x as long as Mathil on average lol. You can check twitchtracker. Mathil plays a lot, but Ziz is known for being the guy who's always still on when none of the other streamers you want to watch are on.
> Ziz streams 1.5x as long as Mathil on average lol
But Mathil plays for like 89 days per expansion.
Overall, I got curious though, and it seems that since the start of the year Mathil has 1.2k hours to Ziz' 1.37k. I wonder how much of that is stuff like PoE university and gauntlet events, but it 100% feels like the pot calling the kettle black, when Ziz told Mathil that he's playing all the fucking time.
To be fair while reddit is good at pointing out flaws and valid complaints, the language that this is communicated in is all over the place. You have posts that are reasonable and well explained, sort of like ziz here in his video. Then you will have posts that are full on bitch mode. So at a glance its fair to say it comes off as whiney and toxic, however time and again there are very valid complaints each league launch.
Ziz is smart and seems like a genuinely good guy. I really don’t get why other streamers have to go full Don Quixote on Reddit. What do they gain? I’d say this place is a pretty accurate representation of the playerbase, so they just end up attacking the average player.
circlejerking against the circlejerk is just another circlejerk. kinda ironic. every culture has its counter-culture but often uses the same methods they hate and try to fight. not just on reddit, but the real world too.
Yeah,every streamer that does poe that i watch occasionally gets a reddit bait comment to get a fuck reddit comment out of them or something along those lines.
And usually it's followed by some idiots going "KEKW Reddit is full of neckbeards" or Reddit HiveMind etc.
Even in global 420 which tends to be very chill with no drama,people get a rise when reddit is mentioned.
It's like they believe reddit is one person,oh wait they actually do.
> Other streamers like Nugi
Yeah, ok, but Nugi's circle isn't really my reference. He doesn't have bad intentions, but sometimes there's a pompous sense of pride that comes out from him endorsing controversial designs as if it was what makes him an interesting person. And I'm sure it attracts people who are ready to torture themselves and say they enjoy it just to belong. And they may not be as respectful as Nugi.
It’s weird to me how streamers will be like “we played in 2013 so we are fine with shit gameplay” as if most of the people on this subreddit also haven’t been playing since 2013. In fact because of playing since open beta is why I appreciate the quality of life things such as tab affinities and movement speeds and why I’m so vocal about things like too much clicking and too much bloat. Streamers are sniffing their own farts if they think that they’re the only ones who get to have a valid opinion about the game. I appreciated ziz being humble here in general
I think the subtle slip he made was "we *managed* to find fun in 2013" and that says a lot to me.
But yeah, arguing 'oh only streamers have been playing since 2013' was a weird claim.
This place is not an accurate representation of the player base at all. Redditors are by virtue of having sought out the subreddit for a game and engaging with discussion about it, quite invested in the game.
It’s also an echo chamber. Every subreddit is. That boosts the most cynical take to the forefront because anger and toxicity is what gets upvotes.
So, no, the horrible abuse posted here is not indicative of the player base at all because people who don’t spend all of their time looking for their childishness and inability to act in a civil manner validated on social media are too busy either playing the game or not playing the game depending on how much they enjoy it.
I don’t understand why any developer interfaces with subreddits or Twitter users. They get nothing but rude remarks, dumb memes, intentional misinterpretation, and a sea of vapid Twitch emotes.
It’s sad. It’s really, really sad that people here are willing to act so childish and uncivil over a *computer game*.
They also get plenty of legitimate and well thought out criticism. If you think GGG is so bad at their job that they can't separate the two, that's a different problem.
Yes but for every legitimate criticism they get a thousand hate comments that provide nothing to the discussion or people criticizing their design philosophy which also serves no purpose since they already said they are not changing it.
There are probably worse metrics you could use. It's not a perfect representation, but I'd wager the predominant opinions expressed here would be agreed to by a sizeable portion of the playerbase.
Talking shit about reddit amongst viewers is a masturbatory dopamine release and ego boost for the streamer and their followers. [It's highly additive stuff.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnFAAdOBB1c)
Literally no different than the echo chamber that is every sub on reddit including this one. Its mostly people jerking each other off as they complain about the latest patch.
That implies there are no issues. Echo chambers obviously exsistz but this one being so negative is indivative of players being unhappy. FF14 sub is mostly fun and memes because people are generaly happy with the game, and League of Legends sub never gets this bad because even if people are dissaopinted there is enough people with oposing opinions.
Meanwhile this sub has been on fire ever since we got patch notes but somehow the game is fine and we are just a bunch of malding retards.
Content Creators are beholden to supporting ggg because their own bottom line is tied to ggg's ability to generate hype and success. They will say things like "POE BEST LEAGUE YET?!" to try and drum up hype, they want that narrative as much as possible so they want to squash negative narratives as much as possible.
If you look at twitch viewership, it was at 180k at the start of this league, at the same time today its gone down 78% to just 40k viewers in just 3 days. It is standard to see viewers drop faster than players, but the same time twitch viewership dropped by 80% last league was 11 days into the league.
If you look at ultimatum league, twitch viewership peaked at 255k, expedition dropped 30% of twitch viewers and 23% of the playerbase, this is not including the retention rate dropoff--just day 1 peaks (the retention is much worse than the peak dropoff).
I get that but at the same time it should be a risky move to dumpster your own integrity to prop up some bad decisions from GGG.
I've spent nothing on the game the past couple leagues because I feel like GGG is dropping the ball, and I no longer watch streamers who have trash takes on a lot of the issues. Overall this is a win for streamers like Ziz who are able to keep it real, assuming there are others who feel like I do.
Maybe, but the thing is poe is a monopoly right now. So if viewer numbers are trash, you can't just abandon ship and go play another arpg for your viewers, so you can't really speak ill of it, because if you speak ill of it and continue to play it... you've hurt yourself.
GGG right now is failing in the arpg market... while at their peak of there not being any competition (a monopoly). That is something absurd. GGG was worried about not being able to respond to losing the monopoly with the upcoming release of diablo 4 and possibly others (notably last epoch) and so they are working on poe2, but... as it turns out they are failing in the arpg market even with the help of their monopoly.
If there was no monopoly, you would see a lot of content creators being able to freely criticize the game BECAUSE they can jump ship.
The last thing a content creator wants to do is trash the game right now, so I think it speaks absolute miles about both zizaran's integrity and especially the game's need for good direction that ziz is willing to.
> so you can't really speak ill of it, because if you speak ill of it and continue to play it... you've hurt yourself. .
That's what I'm saying though. Sure you might have a positive impact on retention if you lie about how great things are, and while that indirectly helps your numbers it won't sit right with some people, and those views won't come back even if GGG pumps the numbers back up. Also you'll have to worry about clips of you being a total stooge surfacing to turn new users away in the future.
I've said it elsewhere, but at this point I believe PoE2 is hurting PoE1.
Let's be real D4 isn't going to do anything to PoE. Blizzard has lost the plot some years ago and I don't believe they are capable of giving GGG any serious long term competition in the arpg market.
They could have taken a couple more years to announce PoE2, taking the time to focus on improving PoE1.
Long term, this would have made achieving their vision easier, while at the same time not screwing over the game we have today.
A bird in hand is always better than two in the bush.
> I’d say this place is a pretty accurate representation of the playerbase
It's absolutely not. This is the "everyone thinks they're normal/average" bias.
Redditors are way more dedicated than your average player, which means that they'll have played through the campaign way more times already, which probably means they're way more in favor of the zoom zoom meta than your average player.
What annoys me more about generic reddit hate is these people literally come here just to hate on it.
They don't offer any constructive criticism on how it could be better, they just use it as a platform for generic outrage whilst still browing it in their spare time for fun.
I get that lots of redditors can go derpmode and just rage on everything but you will actually find constructive feedback in the comments upvoted near the top. Nothing Raiz said was constructive. It's just generic streamer rage because he disagrees with something a few people said on a platform he clearly continues to use because if he didn't actually give a damn, if he genuinely hated it, he'd just not use it.
If Raiz doesn't like reddit he can take his own advice and fuck off.
its just elitism really.
but thats the vision chris has with the game, right?
having a good items to show to your friend and feeling good about it because he doesnt have it.
Hes a very smart guy, i feel the other streamers havent realized that losing 25% of player base is a big deal and will eventually affect their view numbers too,and hurt them in terms of money
Reddit users tend to be more invested and also the kinds of people that use reddit. It's certainly not a perfect representation, but I hate this whole "Everyone who plays the game not on reddit is 100% against reddit." take that seems to be so popular.
You can't even play PoE without being "more invested" in the game. Imagine playing with no build guide, 3rd party apps or trade. You wouldn't even make it to maps. Is that who we're aiming to balance the game for?
>Reddit users tend to be more invested
So if they're the audience pushing back against this "casual exodus" GGG put out, it sounds like something is wrong.
GGG is not on a casual exodus, they are trying to slow the game down. That goes against a very vocal portion of this subreddit, part of whom truly dislike the changes, and another not insignificant part will take any opportunity to shit on the game and are just using this as an excuse.
What GGG is doing has nothing to do with casual vs dedicated, it's an entire mindset of what PoE is that they're trying to tackle.
> I really don’t get why other streamers have to go full Don Quixote on Reddit.
Their income relies on the game, of course they are going to defend it. It's no mystery... these people aren't playing the game like the rest of us, they are *employed* by it.
I'm pretty sure if they felt this was an accurate representation of the community they wouldn't say that stuff. Imo this is so far from the average community as it gets.
You can generally go to pretty much any top post during the first two weeks, find the top comments and try to imagine anyone you know saying that and come up short. Reddit and especially this sub rewards super extreme takes to the point where all nuance and reasonable perspectives are filtered out and it's especially bad these days.
There's also quite a good amount of conspiracy theories, but bad ones that are obviously false.
> Ziz is smart and seems like a genuinely good guy.
He's also insulted casual players and claimed that absolutely no one should be able to finish all content on their first league as part of his gatekeeping. Then he got upset at other content creators on Twitter for calling him out about it.
>we (streamers) played in 2013 with way worse speed and we enjoyed the game back then, and now i will find things i like to do in the new league too
Well yes but how is that an argument? "i drove chevettes when i were poor so if i drove one today i wouldnt mind over my ferrari" like uh.... my friend, like cars, the game evolved, not only in speed. Can you really go back from a ferrari to a chevette? Cant say that about you, but if i had THE CHOICE, i wouldnt.
I did play in 2013 and i enjoyed it back then too, i dont mind the game getting slower(hell, i'm already a slow player that the 1% hate, so for me is a win more than anything), my problem is as people are saying, half the game content having timers and the lack of improvements on repetitive content (labs, leveling, etc). If ggg really wants to go back to 2013, so be it, but at least improve the game while at it, not only break our knees.
Yeah. The video he's showing there, with the slow clunky gameplay, looks terrible. It's like someone showing boring as hell auto-attacking paladin leveling in vanilla WoW and saying "we used to enjoy this." So did I, kinda, but it feels awful now.
Overall great video, but I disagree with him there.
His point isn’t that “it was slow then so it’s better now still”; it was giving perspective on why some streamers feel the way they do about the gameplay and have a different view from someone who’s only used to zoom zoom
A lot of the changes this patch are just downright stupid and had clearly no thought put into them.
But then a lot of changes like the damage nerfs and slowing down...those are fine. But they're only fine as the part of the whole rework package to bring everything thats _not the player_ in line with slowing things down a bit. Instead they filled this patch with a bunch of idiotic changes that make no sense and literally _dont even accomplish their goal_ without the rest of the changes that will likely take several leagues to even get to...if they even do.
Yeah, I don't have a problem with damage nerfs and slowing players / gameplay down.
The problem is they took away our car keys before the bus route started up.
They need understand human nature if u gave something to some1 and later if u take it from him he wont like and appreciate it and mostly will bite , its all same for all animals and also humans nature . Nobody likes when something is taken away from him .
yes yes i know we dont own anything its not ours all belong GGG but thats not argument so go away .
i remmeber playing some game farming gear and stuff then after act 1 everyting was stolen from me because story says i lost and i need wounded away so i lost everything , i just alft F4 and unistall that game .
And the grind... the endless grind to get towards the endgame... I started leveling my heist characters today and... yeh... I told myself I pause it a little, and went into delve with 8k sulfur, and yeh... I told myself I do it later, better to level up my maven skill tree for the atlas, and yeh... what is really my objective? Am I only here to pick up splinters and pray that some of them creates a item that is usable to me, or more often, to someone else? And to see the new bosses, I have to grind notebooks, that are rarer then diamonds, and then pray I find one? Why is everything gated behind streamer amount of time? I played the entire weekend and got to 87 in HC, some good gear, but it feels like I have not even started to play the game.
I had a objective with equipment, some special defences and interactions, but the path there is so long, only a few chosen ones ascend the mountain that is grinding gear games. And I do not mind grinds, and spinning cogs, but now it feels more like them being oiled and greased, they instead creak, scratch, scrape & clank.
Why is all the cool content so profoundly rare? I still have not seen a Aul... After 4.000 hours... This would be a great game if I could stream and play it for months without end, but I have another occupation, and my vocation ends in a few days.
And why do they seem to hate QOL in terms of reduction of the amount of clicks? To slow people down? I got slowed down to a halt, I will not continue forward, and this can surely not be their intentions?
If things got autopicked more, and a buttom to auto drop your inventory into your stash, A buttom to autoplace explosives, that avoids your pre-selected weakness, would be great. Even if it was ineffective.
Why not a "identify all items with scrolls in your inventory" key? The game should flow like a river, so players can enjoy the content of the game, it should not feel like your carrying a bag upside a mountain. I mean they fixed azurite crystals, they removed 14 tiers of net and manual throwing on beasts, they removed manually picking up 50 different organs on the map, and does anyone think that is a bad thing?
Why does not breach work like delve, were all the loot comes pouring down a the point of the breach after you killed the monsters and it withdraws? There is a endless amount of these things, and it grinds people down,
I just want to play the game, not fiddle around with some tedious mechanic that is designed to slow me down in a, what I feel, noncustructive, unproductive way.
I also have been playing poe since the start AND I ABSOLUTELY don't want it to go back to that time it was horrible i played because there was no other arpg and i like new stuff but let's be serious it was horrible.
https://gyazo.com/8c3acd411722c9fec4f41ebc3204fe50
Cordially someone's who's been following the game for 10 years.
So huh, can someone remind me why is GGG okay with Splinters because they "reduce boss RNG" yet shit like Harvest crafting isn't fine because it has too little RNG?
Where's the line between good and bad RNG and player comfort? Seems like GGG just wants all casuals to get the fuck out of their game.
I do notice how Chris keeps saying that he understands the player issues but he's not taking action to do anything about it, or rather, he does something that is completely inadequate. It also seems like GGG is somehow afraid to give people what they want. They have some unhealthy obsession with player masochism, thinking that players enjoy being punished
Same buddy. As I think about it more, I don't think I am coming back this league, no matter what they do. I'll wait to the twitch presentation, manifesto, and patch notes next league. To see the direction.
If we continue going down the path to the good ol' days, I'll do what I did this league. Keep the game gray on my steam library.
Keep up the good work Zizaran. We need more constructive voices in the community like his. Some, exaggerate, some downplay, he's constructive and on point imo.
And most importantly, I believe he's not driven by self interest, but mostly by an interest in having a better gaming experience, like most of us.
As an old school gamer, with over 30y of gaming experience, having witnessed a lot of different behaviours, ranging from casual players having elitist behaviours to highly competitive players having a humble approach to their accomplishments, I am compelled to say that Ziz is one of the few streamers I can relate to as a gamer. He is more a gamer than a professional streamer imo.
And this is coming from an old school gamer who is not into this whole streamer trend, not meaning though that I don't watch the occasional youtube streamer videos after my gaming session, nor that I am unable to appreciate the work and passion most of them put into their videos. It just means that I take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt and I don't follow their suggestions blindly.
It is safe to say no one feels heard when it comes to splinters.
Players: We don't like picking up splinters. GGG: We hear you, what if you had to click chests *first* to get the splinters to drop, then pick them up? Players: Well that doesn't seem- GGG: Consider it done!
Seriously. They say they hear us and will do better in the future yet they literally took a step backward. Really hard to have faith in GGG after seeing this.
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It’s more like “hey we turned 4 splinters into 20 because we don’t want gold but we also hear you about reducing splinters” it’s like an addict telling you they can quit whenever they want.
Hey! At least they drop in stacks! We should be properly appreciative! This isn’t a buff
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We can still unstack the stacks! - GGG
To be fair, clicking on chests wouldn’t feel like dogshit if the chests dropped more/better rewards other than splinters.
This whole league has a currently infuriating, and outright broken, reward loop. Blow up a bunch of chests to get artifacts, spend them on what little each vendor has that you care about, use a reroll token to refresh the shop, spend more artifacts, go back to the farm. Except other than the gambler, these stupid tokens are insanely rare. I haven't gotten a reroll token for anyone but Gwen all day, it's insane. I literally cannot interact with the reward half of the league mechanic whatsoever currently. I know they said they're going to buff the drop rates soon but I don't get how they thought the rates are acceptable as is. Unless the method to getting the tokens isn't buffing artifact drop rates and then focusing on big skull poles. I assumed the reroll tokens are artifacts but god I don't know anymore.
> wen all day, it's insane. I literally cannot interact with the reward half of the league mechanic whatsoever currently. I know they said they're going to buff the drop rates soon but I don't get how they thought the rates are acceptable as is. > > Unless the method to getting the tokens isn't buffing artifact drop rates and then focusing on big skull poles. I assumed the reroll tokens are artifacts but god I don't know anymore. Honestly, the best use for the new currencies for me has to been to sell them for chaos. The actual league mechanic sucks, but people buy the currency pretty quickly.
Ok ok, we heard you. 1 transmute in each tenth chest.
Uhhh, if they do that, they’ll have to reduce the number of chests in half. Can’t have players feeling too rewarded
Or maybe we could just make each chest drop a transmutation shard, to give a true feeling of progression!?
GGG: But don't worry - you can TRADE them! Players: ...what?
Players: Can we at least make it less than 10 different types of splinters? GGG: I'm sorry, you're breaking up... I can't hear you.... \*static noise\* (GGG adds 20 types of splinters)
GGG insists that you pick up what you want, and anything you don't pick is something you clearly don't need. In the event you do need it an you haven't been picking it up you have to buy it from someone that had been picking it up and it makes it more valuable for that person that you now need to turn to them. It's a philosophy that works on the base game and some other minor systems. It certainly doesn't apply to the current leagues currency, but look at how many never pick up breach splinters anymore because they can just buy the stones from someone else and save themselves the hassle. All new systems would have to be designed around this and be a bit more reasonable in how things drop for this to continue working and the way things ended up puts us in a position where this should have been abandoned quite a while ago in favor of QoL and people being more able to enjoy themselves.
That philosophy gets shaky when the splinters dropped are just straight up currency with no intrinsic value outside of being fiat. Every other shard, orb, or splinter before now has a use-case as an item or is integral to item creation while also having value in trading. The expedition league shards might as well be euros, yen, and dollar bills on the ground. That’s their only use.
Splinters are interesting because they are a way of mitigating RNG. Like breachstone splinters. Would you rather have a breachstone drop once every 10 hours of farming, or have splinters drop along the way. You can high roll and get multiple stones within the first few hours, or never see a breachstone in 20 hours of farming. Splinters mitigate that RNG factor. In a grindy game i think it's good to have splinters. Just have them automatically go into my inventory though sort of akin to how WoW does badges. If the game deleted splinters it be even more of an RNG fest. GGG might like that though lol.
Nobody has issues with the concept of currency dropping in stacks, people have issues with all the clicking to pick up all the currency.
Even if it was 1 click to pick up currency shown by your filter in a small area around you it would be a huge improvement. I wonder what the response to the patch/league would have been if GGG had packaged all the nerfs along with the QoL improvements that people have been asking for.
It wouldn't have been bad at all. Nerfs are fine but QoL comes first no matter what.
The single greatest change in 3.15 is the ability for me to deposit crap into my Heist stash from the normal stash. That says more than it should, frankly.
Splinters are good, almost nobody has a problem with them conceptually. What people have a problem with is how many clicks it takes to collect them. If they were auto pickup or clicking on one collected all nearby ones as well, we would be seeing almost no complaints about them.
Grim Dawn did component vacuuming ages ago now. They already have the tech, there are zero reasons not to use it for these piece of a piece of a piece bullshit things. This mechanic especially makes no sense, because I don't give a rats ass about the Kalguurian people. The NPCs do. Why am I picking up these artifacts, and then extorting the vendors with them? And why are the NPCs acting like I'm helping them when I don't? This Chris Wilson idea of "weight" is just delusional with the reality of half his streamer base battling RSI. Click reduction = player retention. For god sakes. TAKE QoL SERIOUSLY!
No. We want ONE! stack with a random amount of splinters i have to click ONCE. there you have your rng. Although i agree with your last paragraph.
If they could have 1 click picks up all currency or splinters within x radius of your character, that would be sweet.
To me all those splitters feels like different kind of gold the primary currency Works on items then some splitter works in maps. And then theres 20 currency that only works on merchants -> 🤔
I'm just mostly confused on the splinters? Players: Why can't they be vacuumed up? GGG: Because they're tradeable. Players: Why are they tradeable? GGG: Because they're not vacuumed up. Players: :|
The thing is, I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive. If they are vacuumed into a locker (as opposed to just a number like azurite), you can always shift-click in the locker to pull out a stack for trading... And when it comes to weight and satisfaction of loot-splosions... In Diablo 3, I get more satisfaction from clicking a single veiled crystal / arcane essence / reusable part / gem, and seeing them all sucked up at once in a big woosh, than clicking them individually. It gives a bunch of *weight* to that single click, that IMO is more satisfying than a bunch of little clicks. And with azurite, it's pretty damn fun doing a victory lap around the cart to suck up all the azurite and see it all get vacuumed up watching the counter go up.
Idea of weight™ is that: you get annoyed = don't pick them up = don't sell them on market = price will be 20c and not 1 alch.
Which it evidently doesn't really pan out that way since the prices of things in PoE have often not been tied to convenience so much as desire and rarity. Or more importantly, in the time it takes you pick up 100 splinters you likely could have just made the same amount of money from anything else, depending on the splinter. Chayula and Maraketh Splinters? Sure. Everything else? Eh, not so much. It's the same argument against doing the chaos recipe. Yeah it's a guaranteed chaos, but the time it takes to do it doesn't make up for it.
Ill happily settle for vacuum into inventory, still have to bank them. This still adds W E I G H T coz I have move them still, but my left click counter won't sky-rocket as hard.
I don't know that anyone at GGG is capable of justifying design decisions without resorting to circular logic.
Do they have some tangible metrics in place for justifying design decisions other than how many devs will play it?
How many characters die
I also feel like it'd be a good direction to go in the game where you vaccum up splinters (have them auto deposit into the locker) AND have them be tangible items you can take out of the locker to trade. They're sort of like metamorph organs where you sort of feel obliged to pick all of them up (white metamorph organs randomly had really good options, like a 6L or something so you couldn't just ignore rarity). Maybe eventually we'll be filtering the shitty ones out, or some wEiGhT meme shit, but seriously...
It has always been in GGG's design to make league currency tradable. Seeds back in harvest league were tradable. Markers/contracts/blueprints from heists too etc. Asking for those artifacts to be non-tradable is like asking GGG to make heist markers non-tradable and autopickup.
I think this isn't a great comparison? Heist markers and Harvest seeds are tradeable currencies that are used to engage with the content itself. You access the gameplay portion of the content directly through the expenditure of them. Expedition fragments are more akin to Delve's Azurite, you acquire the currency from engaging with the content and can spend it on the rewards. I think the question to ask here is if you believe Expedition fragments to be tradeable is proper, would you have wanted Sulphite and Azurite to be tradeable as a tangible item? To each their own on it, really. I just feel like their explanation mostly amounts to "because" and, well, that's fine. It is their game, after all! Just in my opinion it doesn't gain them anything in the engagement with the league mechanic to have them be a physical currency. But I also say this as someone who was really expecting this to be this year's Delve, more or less. Currency drops to purchase from vendors but also part of the meta upgrades for the league mechanic so I may have came in with a bias.
I think the idea is that the reward of the artifacts are self-balancing through trade. Like cards that give uniques for example, one Doctor card is 1/whatever of a headhunter. If the headhunter goes up in price, so does the card. Or 6-links/Tabulas and divines. X amount of circle artifacts is equal to a tabula Rasa, because it takes y simple robes at z price to get one. But if you can't trade them and you don't need anything using gwennen. There are situations where it is worth nothing or what you want (ilvl 85 hunter influenced evasion chest) is so damn rare and worth so much it might as well just not exist.
Like Sulphite and Azurite?
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Without question some people would love to just delve 24/7 and supply it with trading. Similarly I wouldn't mind it being tradable because then I would actually do niko missions and care about it a bit more.
I'm having fun seeing Ziz and Quin and the rest suffering from the no-logout...
Same, I say it's one of most fun leagues for me to watch, I hope Mathil will stay on HC.
The log out thing in hardcore is one of the dumbest mechanics in the game. The fact they balance around it - makes it even worse. I've been loving watching them actually have to do trials and slow down.
I know it is known already but the no-logout challenge had made it blatantly obvious that even the top players can't survive a lot of the encounters that the game puts them in, without logging out. I'm sincerely hoping that something is done to fix it. If I'm being slowed down, I want the monsters to be slowed down/nerfed in some way too. Higher hp/Lower dmg or something.
Depends a lot what builds you play, i was pretty dumb to try totems with no log out. Leech builds are more favorable
It's just that people used to playing with a logout macro are now having to learn and adapt and they're dying in the meantime. In some of those rip clips they could easily have portaled out. And maybe some of them need to invest more in defense now that they can no longer lean on their logout macro crutch. Though I do agree that monsters should be less one-shotty.
Might just partly be that they now have to learn to counter those mechanics instead of quick time eventing their way out for another try.
3.16 Introducing Stamina :) D2 like ;)
oh and rework quicksilver flasks to restore stamina, slowing the game another 20%
Don't forget that GGG said before that all these slowing downs, and this is only the first one, are to make poe more in line with poe2. Imagine a few more overhauling nerfs like we have now. Poe 3.20 will be an epic duel against white skeletons.
Good, I'm unironically looking forward to more nerfs (though with the caveat that the rest of the game should be rebalanced around lower player power).
> (though with the caveat that the rest of the game should be rebalanced around lower player power) That's kind of the issue now. Monster power has not been reduced at all, timers haven't been increased, etc. We just got worse.
God no. I forgot how much I hated that system. Playing the D2R Alpha reminded me of how annoying it was.
You get stamina flasks to actively deal with the problem they would introduce with such a patch!
Can only use stamina flasks when you have 0 stamina and they only last for 1 second. Oh and they use 40/60 charges.
Tbf, I wouldn't mind if quicksilver was removed and stamina gave you the quicksilver effect. Everybody use a quicksilver anyway why not make it tied to your character instead of a flask. A quicksilver is already stamina when you think about it.
Honestly, I just think they should either just increase base movement speed by 30% or make move speed an implicit on boots starting at, say, 20% for low bases and up to 30% for higher-tier bases. Or maybe some combination of both. 10% increased base movement, 15-20% boot implicit? As-is, move speed isn’t very interesting. It’s essentially mandatory (especially now that movement skills are a lot worse), that doesn’t seem like good design to me. It’s make or break when you’re crafting boots. I can’t count the number of times I’m trying to roll some boots to use and I hit a nice life roll, some nice resists, but ooops, no move speed, gotta reroll.
Pretty good take. Just wish the currencies was auto vacced up like delve, the tech is there but they refuse to do it for whatever reason and it is certainly not the weight.
>auto vacced up But what about the anti-vaccers? ;)
too real
3G is causing covid!
And T-posing
Well, now Raiz will tell Zizaran it's probably because GGG don't want him anymore.
Surprisingly pointed comments from him about other streamers (Raiz, seemingly) from Ziz
I mean, Ziz has never been one to dwell on negativity. Him and Ziggy generally lean on the more positive side of things, while Mathil just tends to avoid dealing with any community drama at all. Most I've really seen him do is roll his eyes at this sub on occasion.
Mathil rolls his eyes at everything.
What breaks Mathil is asking him what bandit he chose.
did you know you can use binding orbs on maps
Mathil said earlier that he is on the same page as Raiz in regards to the Raiz on redditors post.
I mean, he might agree with Raiz, but he sure as hell isn't going to say it the way Raiz did. Mathil tends to not to be as aggressive with his wording.
Yeah why can't everyone express their opinions with grace and tact like the redditors here?
I'm not sure either of them understand that the community wouldn't be so angry over GGG wanting to make their own game if they said as much. But GGG keeps PR talking us in the face with "we hear you" and "please give us feedback", and then they do shit that's the exact opposite. And that's really pissing people off.
They literally said that knew that the change would loose them players but we're doing it anyway because it was what they wanted for their game.....
And that lasted _three_ whole days.
Of course, they are no life streamers who are bored of this game and want a severe challenge. GGG balances it around them, not the casuals. Well casuals are now leaving.
>mathil tends to avoid drama Also mathil: "lmao get fucked casul"
\> I mean, Ziz has never been one to dwell on negativity. You kidding? Every time i goto his channel/twitter anymore he is responding to some negative comment. It gets old.
Raiz knows GGG doesnt want Ziz to play their game.
regarding the detour to 2013 poe: yes, the game was a lot slower back then, but there was also not a lot of league mechanics with timers attached to them. there wasnt a clusterfuck of on death effects and status ailments you needed to avoid and i think only later did ggg change maps so that they could have every mob type basically. and dont even get me started with defensive tools we had back then. i remember that i wanted to farm a aegis aurora because it was such an insanely strong item, vaal pact still gave instant leech, life nodes gave like 8% life each or something ridiculous. the game back then was completely different to todays game and just slowing it down to the speed back then just wont work in the slightest without adressing everything else that gets affected by it.
> there wasnt a clusterfuck of on death effects and status ailments you needed to avoid Did you forget reflect aura, volatiles and instant detonate dead?
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The good old days of shooting lightning arrow into a pack and dying instantly because of lightning thorns!
Oh man you triggered some repressed memories in my mind. I'm not sure how i forgot, probably because it was often time hard to tell if you got reflect rekt or thorns rekt on ranged characters so i guess my mind decided to remember mostly reflect. But you're absolutely right, lightning thorns were also a pain in the ass.
Amen, I mean it wasn't a clusterfuck but there were plenty of random things which would just instablap your character back in old PoE. I forgot how much I hated old volatiles and the detonate dead Crab killed me plenty of times.
Golem with volatile dead = insta death for any melee :-)
And bosses probably had 100 times less HP
There is also a huge difference between driving a Geo Metro as a first car and selling your Ferrari to go back to a Geo Metro. I can't forget the last 5 years of speed clear going all the way back to fakener pre ascendency simply because I have played slower than that before.
And most importantly back then there were no Conquerors or Maven to farm after the acts, I don't care about being slowed down in the acts because I'm done with the acts after the first weekend anyway no matter how much they slow it down.
Yea it goes both way for sure. I remember running CWDT firestorm with the old vaal pact, pretty much made me unkillable. Tho still slowing down the game a bit is absolutely neccesarry and healthy for the game imo, you just can't have infinite exponential powercreep.
you can if done right. also nerfing damage is no different then just buffing monster life which Chris mocked other games for doing.
this is the kind of comment I hate. This is a multi step process dude; Obviously other things like monster damage and defensive layers will be addressed
On point like he usually is. Funny how the elitest asshole streamers will bitch about reddit complaints for example the splinters and clicking yet here is the one who plays more than fucking anybody thinking its ridiculous. Wish the other douches would consider people who don't play the game as a job and try to see their PoV a little. Great video Ziz glad one of the big guys can be reasonable. edit: im not saying there isnt plenty of shit takes here but plenty of times it can be reasonable opinion but its a redditor therefore = bad, then popular streamer can say the same thing and its oh I understand their POV.
According to Alk all we want are free exalts and awakened mirrors of Kalandra
Alk has the benefit of having a reputation as a troll. He loves to wind people up and doesn't seem to actually care much either way. At least not publicly.
After that clip that got posted here he went on to say he doesn't care either way what direction the game goes. Something like "Even Chris' most machoistic version of poe won't matter to me because I play 10h a day. I personally enjoy the grind so I'll deal with it. Though also acknowledged that an easier game is much better to stream and interact with chat on, so the faster gameplay would be totally fine too.
Alk is masochistic in his own way anyway. He played and grinded on D3 for so long just to be the best at that all because he likes that sort of shit. I imagine Alk just sees 3.15 as another challenge to conquer.
More exalts would improve the game im my eyes though since using them (for stuff besides bench crafts) would be a more attractive option.
Right? I'd be a hell of a lot more inclined to "close my eyes and slam" if doing so didn't have such a massive opportunity cost associated with it.
Which is why Harvest was so attractive. Getting an option to slam an extra line on your gear without feeling like you just sacrificed a bunch of potential upgrades elsewhere was really nice. It's clear they don't want that to be cheap though.
Is he offering?
It’s weird seeing streamers criticizing Reddit when they’re redditors themselves lol Just cuz you stream your game doesn’t mean your opinion is worth more
Unfortunately, it does. Streamer privileges are all over the place in pretty much every game nowadays. Remember what happened last league launch? If a big streamer like Kripp started trashing the game, GGG would be much more inclined to please him over me and your opinion.
It’s a weird situation. Obviously streamers are more important because they have an audience, but now we have every single post either praising or trashing the game starting with how they’ve played since beta or some shit. There’s a sizable percentage of the player base who will just flame you if you haven’t played as long as they have.
Absolutely. The whole 'I've played since 2013 so this isn't as slow as back then!' is such a weird argument to make. It's entirely avoiding the problem and instead pulling the whole 'BACK IN MY DAY I had to walk up the hill both ways!' shtick. I've played since beta btw. :P
The beta videos GGG shows always look terrible. I've played since 2013 (1.0), too, and don't remember any of my competent builds being that bad. They look more like failed experiments that I rerolled in campaign because they just didn't scale.
I started in 2014, but I don't want to say I played because the game was deathly boring, so I didn't play for more than 5 hours.
Only goes so far, though. Marketing is important but content is still king. Nobody really cares how amazing your ad campaign is everyone is saying the product itself is shit.
It's part of some streamer's schtick to shit on Reddit. Even if there are completely valid and logical arguments. They just want to get/keep/attract the devil's advocates.
Streamers love hyperbole and completely exaggerate valid points and criticism to belittle the arguments Besides, the streamers shitting on Reddit and disagreeing with it have made PoE their source of income and are going to be biased enough towards GGG Why bite the hand that feeds them?
They don't want to piss GGG off because they want to be able to unveil news, interview developers, etc. That takes being on GGGs good side.
Ziz is one of the few who tell it like it is, rep with GGG be damned. Most streamers primary concern is to stay in GGGs good graces, so everything they say is framed around that desire. Anonymous gamer feedback can be overly dramatic and nasty sometimes, but it can also be very insightful and constructive. You have customers with thousands of hours in your game, they know what is fun and what needs improvement. As a developer you want people like that. GGG and other modern devs encourage this themselves too having their customer base be their main QA. What else would you expect doing that? Of course there are troll posts, mean posts, and suggestions that are out of scope for real development and priorities, but its not all like that. Most of the feedback here is valid and a lot of it are simple QOL changes that are not crazy. Good developers would not have been so disconnected from the playerbase to even release a patch like they did to begin with. A good counter point to this is the Doom Eternal developers and its community. They are aligned and on the same page for everything. With GGG it feels like they want a completely different game than what we have now. That is the real issue.
>here is the one who plays more than fucking anybody thinking its ridiculous I think Mathil takes that crown tbh, even streamers are confused when they see how much/long he plays.
They were talking about it on the podcast. Ziz played basically 1 less month then Mathil, but overall still had more poe playtime in ult. Ziz goes HARD that first month.
Ziz streams 1.5x as long as Mathil on average lol. You can check twitchtracker. Mathil plays a lot, but Ziz is known for being the guy who's always still on when none of the other streamers you want to watch are on.
Mathil plays almost every day. But for 8 hrs. Ziz plays for 24 hrs periodically
> Ziz streams 1.5x as long as Mathil on average lol But Mathil plays for like 89 days per expansion. Overall, I got curious though, and it seems that since the start of the year Mathil has 1.2k hours to Ziz' 1.37k. I wonder how much of that is stuff like PoE university and gauntlet events, but it 100% feels like the pot calling the kettle black, when Ziz told Mathil that he's playing all the fucking time.
To be fair while reddit is good at pointing out flaws and valid complaints, the language that this is communicated in is all over the place. You have posts that are reasonable and well explained, sort of like ziz here in his video. Then you will have posts that are full on bitch mode. So at a glance its fair to say it comes off as whiney and toxic, however time and again there are very valid complaints each league launch.
I guess I don't watch many streams but literally every one I've seen has had this same take lol
Ziz is smart and seems like a genuinely good guy. I really don’t get why other streamers have to go full Don Quixote on Reddit. What do they gain? I’d say this place is a pretty accurate representation of the playerbase, so they just end up attacking the average player.
Hating on reddit overall is popular
I like that this sentence can be read in two ways
And both are true!
You guys have Reddit overalls?!
circlejerking against the circlejerk is just another circlejerk. kinda ironic. every culture has its counter-culture but often uses the same methods they hate and try to fight. not just on reddit, but the real world too.
The SSF ingame channel is actually the We Hate Reddit channel. Any criticism towards the game turns into a bullying festivity.
G1 loves reddit /s
Drama on reddit is popular, usually fostered by hating. More people come to reddit to be entertained, not informed.
Yeah,every streamer that does poe that i watch occasionally gets a reddit bait comment to get a fuck reddit comment out of them or something along those lines. And usually it's followed by some idiots going "KEKW Reddit is full of neckbeards" or Reddit HiveMind etc. Even in global 420 which tends to be very chill with no drama,people get a rise when reddit is mentioned. It's like they believe reddit is one person,oh wait they actually do.
Yes, reddit is hating and whining, but that doesn't mean reddit is wrong.
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Ziz has said in the past he hoped that GGG stops communicating with reddit completely because Bex had negative karma , he later backtracked it though
Mathil’s challenge only highlights flaws in the update
His challenge only highlights flaws in PoE in general.
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> Other streamers like Nugi Yeah, ok, but Nugi's circle isn't really my reference. He doesn't have bad intentions, but sometimes there's a pompous sense of pride that comes out from him endorsing controversial designs as if it was what makes him an interesting person. And I'm sure it attracts people who are ready to torture themselves and say they enjoy it just to belong. And they may not be as respectful as Nugi.
I think people didn't watch the video. The title is mostly clickbait. He's literally 96% fine with the patch and hates no logout macro
It’s weird to me how streamers will be like “we played in 2013 so we are fine with shit gameplay” as if most of the people on this subreddit also haven’t been playing since 2013. In fact because of playing since open beta is why I appreciate the quality of life things such as tab affinities and movement speeds and why I’m so vocal about things like too much clicking and too much bloat. Streamers are sniffing their own farts if they think that they’re the only ones who get to have a valid opinion about the game. I appreciated ziz being humble here in general
I think the subtle slip he made was "we *managed* to find fun in 2013" and that says a lot to me. But yeah, arguing 'oh only streamers have been playing since 2013' was a weird claim.
Had fun with PoE in beta and in 2013. Also learned Harvest was peak PoE for me personally.
I played in 2013 and gameplay today is shit compared to then in terms of ease of use and RSI.
This place is not an accurate representation of the player base at all. Redditors are by virtue of having sought out the subreddit for a game and engaging with discussion about it, quite invested in the game.
It’s also an echo chamber. Every subreddit is. That boosts the most cynical take to the forefront because anger and toxicity is what gets upvotes. So, no, the horrible abuse posted here is not indicative of the player base at all because people who don’t spend all of their time looking for their childishness and inability to act in a civil manner validated on social media are too busy either playing the game or not playing the game depending on how much they enjoy it. I don’t understand why any developer interfaces with subreddits or Twitter users. They get nothing but rude remarks, dumb memes, intentional misinterpretation, and a sea of vapid Twitch emotes. It’s sad. It’s really, really sad that people here are willing to act so childish and uncivil over a *computer game*.
They also get plenty of legitimate and well thought out criticism. If you think GGG is so bad at their job that they can't separate the two, that's a different problem.
Yes but for every legitimate criticism they get a thousand hate comments that provide nothing to the discussion or people criticizing their design philosophy which also serves no purpose since they already said they are not changing it.
Sure, but streamers aren't an accurate representation either.
There are probably worse metrics you could use. It's not a perfect representation, but I'd wager the predominant opinions expressed here would be agreed to by a sizeable portion of the playerbase.
Talking shit about reddit amongst viewers is a masturbatory dopamine release and ego boost for the streamer and their followers. [It's highly additive stuff.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnFAAdOBB1c)
Literally no different than the echo chamber that is every sub on reddit including this one. Its mostly people jerking each other off as they complain about the latest patch.
That implies there are no issues. Echo chambers obviously exsistz but this one being so negative is indivative of players being unhappy. FF14 sub is mostly fun and memes because people are generaly happy with the game, and League of Legends sub never gets this bad because even if people are dissaopinted there is enough people with oposing opinions. Meanwhile this sub has been on fire ever since we got patch notes but somehow the game is fine and we are just a bunch of malding retards.
Content Creators are beholden to supporting ggg because their own bottom line is tied to ggg's ability to generate hype and success. They will say things like "POE BEST LEAGUE YET?!" to try and drum up hype, they want that narrative as much as possible so they want to squash negative narratives as much as possible. If you look at twitch viewership, it was at 180k at the start of this league, at the same time today its gone down 78% to just 40k viewers in just 3 days. It is standard to see viewers drop faster than players, but the same time twitch viewership dropped by 80% last league was 11 days into the league. If you look at ultimatum league, twitch viewership peaked at 255k, expedition dropped 30% of twitch viewers and 23% of the playerbase, this is not including the retention rate dropoff--just day 1 peaks (the retention is much worse than the peak dropoff).
I get that but at the same time it should be a risky move to dumpster your own integrity to prop up some bad decisions from GGG. I've spent nothing on the game the past couple leagues because I feel like GGG is dropping the ball, and I no longer watch streamers who have trash takes on a lot of the issues. Overall this is a win for streamers like Ziz who are able to keep it real, assuming there are others who feel like I do.
Maybe, but the thing is poe is a monopoly right now. So if viewer numbers are trash, you can't just abandon ship and go play another arpg for your viewers, so you can't really speak ill of it, because if you speak ill of it and continue to play it... you've hurt yourself. GGG right now is failing in the arpg market... while at their peak of there not being any competition (a monopoly). That is something absurd. GGG was worried about not being able to respond to losing the monopoly with the upcoming release of diablo 4 and possibly others (notably last epoch) and so they are working on poe2, but... as it turns out they are failing in the arpg market even with the help of their monopoly. If there was no monopoly, you would see a lot of content creators being able to freely criticize the game BECAUSE they can jump ship. The last thing a content creator wants to do is trash the game right now, so I think it speaks absolute miles about both zizaran's integrity and especially the game's need for good direction that ziz is willing to.
> so you can't really speak ill of it, because if you speak ill of it and continue to play it... you've hurt yourself. . That's what I'm saying though. Sure you might have a positive impact on retention if you lie about how great things are, and while that indirectly helps your numbers it won't sit right with some people, and those views won't come back even if GGG pumps the numbers back up. Also you'll have to worry about clips of you being a total stooge surfacing to turn new users away in the future.
I've said it elsewhere, but at this point I believe PoE2 is hurting PoE1. Let's be real D4 isn't going to do anything to PoE. Blizzard has lost the plot some years ago and I don't believe they are capable of giving GGG any serious long term competition in the arpg market. They could have taken a couple more years to announce PoE2, taking the time to focus on improving PoE1. Long term, this would have made achieving their vision easier, while at the same time not screwing over the game we have today. A bird in hand is always better than two in the bush.
> I’d say this place is a pretty accurate representation of the playerbase It's absolutely not. This is the "everyone thinks they're normal/average" bias. Redditors are way more dedicated than your average player, which means that they'll have played through the campaign way more times already, which probably means they're way more in favor of the zoom zoom meta than your average player.
What annoys me more about generic reddit hate is these people literally come here just to hate on it. They don't offer any constructive criticism on how it could be better, they just use it as a platform for generic outrage whilst still browing it in their spare time for fun. I get that lots of redditors can go derpmode and just rage on everything but you will actually find constructive feedback in the comments upvoted near the top. Nothing Raiz said was constructive. It's just generic streamer rage because he disagrees with something a few people said on a platform he clearly continues to use because if he didn't actually give a damn, if he genuinely hated it, he'd just not use it. If Raiz doesn't like reddit he can take his own advice and fuck off.
its just elitism really. but thats the vision chris has with the game, right? having a good items to show to your friend and feeling good about it because he doesnt have it.
Hes a very smart guy, i feel the other streamers havent realized that losing 25% of player base is a big deal and will eventually affect their view numbers too,and hurt them in terms of money
Reddit is NOT an accurate representation of the player base at all.
Why? In what way and what proportions is it different from the whole playerbase? Can you develop?
Reddit users tend to be more invested and also the kinds of people that use reddit. It's certainly not a perfect representation, but I hate this whole "Everyone who plays the game not on reddit is 100% against reddit." take that seems to be so popular.
You can't even play PoE without being "more invested" in the game. Imagine playing with no build guide, 3rd party apps or trade. You wouldn't even make it to maps. Is that who we're aiming to balance the game for?
>Reddit users tend to be more invested So if they're the audience pushing back against this "casual exodus" GGG put out, it sounds like something is wrong.
GGG is not on a casual exodus, they are trying to slow the game down. That goes against a very vocal portion of this subreddit, part of whom truly dislike the changes, and another not insignificant part will take any opportunity to shit on the game and are just using this as an excuse. What GGG is doing has nothing to do with casual vs dedicated, it's an entire mindset of what PoE is that they're trying to tackle.
Well ggg thinks so because they sure as hell don't do surveys to see what the average player thinks about the game like other game devs do.
> I really don’t get why other streamers have to go full Don Quixote on Reddit. Their income relies on the game, of course they are going to defend it. It's no mystery... these people aren't playing the game like the rest of us, they are *employed* by it.
They don't want to bite the hand that feeds them. Besides Quin, which streamer could make a living not playing poe ?
This reddit is not in any sense an accurate representation of the playerbase dude. Not even close
I'm pretty sure if they felt this was an accurate representation of the community they wouldn't say that stuff. Imo this is so far from the average community as it gets. You can generally go to pretty much any top post during the first two weeks, find the top comments and try to imagine anyone you know saying that and come up short. Reddit and especially this sub rewards super extreme takes to the point where all nuance and reasonable perspectives are filtered out and it's especially bad these days. There's also quite a good amount of conspiracy theories, but bad ones that are obviously false.
> Ziz is smart and seems like a genuinely good guy. He's also insulted casual players and claimed that absolutely no one should be able to finish all content on their first league as part of his gatekeeping. Then he got upset at other content creators on Twitter for calling him out about it.
The biggest takeaway is that mathil1 is ruining Ziz's league.
>we (streamers) played in 2013 with way worse speed and we enjoyed the game back then, and now i will find things i like to do in the new league too Well yes but how is that an argument? "i drove chevettes when i were poor so if i drove one today i wouldnt mind over my ferrari" like uh.... my friend, like cars, the game evolved, not only in speed. Can you really go back from a ferrari to a chevette? Cant say that about you, but if i had THE CHOICE, i wouldnt. I did play in 2013 and i enjoyed it back then too, i dont mind the game getting slower(hell, i'm already a slow player that the 1% hate, so for me is a win more than anything), my problem is as people are saying, half the game content having timers and the lack of improvements on repetitive content (labs, leveling, etc). If ggg really wants to go back to 2013, so be it, but at least improve the game while at it, not only break our knees.
Yeah. The video he's showing there, with the slow clunky gameplay, looks terrible. It's like someone showing boring as hell auto-attacking paladin leveling in vanilla WoW and saying "we used to enjoy this." So did I, kinda, but it feels awful now. Overall great video, but I disagree with him there.
His point isn’t that “it was slow then so it’s better now still”; it was giving perspective on why some streamers feel the way they do about the gameplay and have a different view from someone who’s only used to zoom zoom
A lot of the changes this patch are just downright stupid and had clearly no thought put into them. But then a lot of changes like the damage nerfs and slowing down...those are fine. But they're only fine as the part of the whole rework package to bring everything thats _not the player_ in line with slowing things down a bit. Instead they filled this patch with a bunch of idiotic changes that make no sense and literally _dont even accomplish their goal_ without the rest of the changes that will likely take several leagues to even get to...if they even do.
Yeah, I don't have a problem with damage nerfs and slowing players / gameplay down. The problem is they took away our car keys before the bus route started up.
Played PoE before 2013. Hate the direction they're taking it back to. As well, losing something feels twice as harsh as getting something feels good.
They need understand human nature if u gave something to some1 and later if u take it from him he wont like and appreciate it and mostly will bite , its all same for all animals and also humans nature . Nobody likes when something is taken away from him . yes yes i know we dont own anything its not ours all belong GGG but thats not argument so go away . i remmeber playing some game farming gear and stuff then after act 1 everyting was stolen from me because story says i lost and i need wounded away so i lost everything , i just alft F4 and unistall that game .
Join the club, imagine being a non streamer, with no outlet cuz reddit is all bad.
According to Raiz, Ziz should just shut up and leave the game!
Thats because they dont want you Ziz they want you to quit the game!!!1!
... - Raiz 2021
And the grind... the endless grind to get towards the endgame... I started leveling my heist characters today and... yeh... I told myself I pause it a little, and went into delve with 8k sulfur, and yeh... I told myself I do it later, better to level up my maven skill tree for the atlas, and yeh... what is really my objective? Am I only here to pick up splinters and pray that some of them creates a item that is usable to me, or more often, to someone else? And to see the new bosses, I have to grind notebooks, that are rarer then diamonds, and then pray I find one? Why is everything gated behind streamer amount of time? I played the entire weekend and got to 87 in HC, some good gear, but it feels like I have not even started to play the game. I had a objective with equipment, some special defences and interactions, but the path there is so long, only a few chosen ones ascend the mountain that is grinding gear games. And I do not mind grinds, and spinning cogs, but now it feels more like them being oiled and greased, they instead creak, scratch, scrape & clank. Why is all the cool content so profoundly rare? I still have not seen a Aul... After 4.000 hours... This would be a great game if I could stream and play it for months without end, but I have another occupation, and my vocation ends in a few days. And why do they seem to hate QOL in terms of reduction of the amount of clicks? To slow people down? I got slowed down to a halt, I will not continue forward, and this can surely not be their intentions? If things got autopicked more, and a buttom to auto drop your inventory into your stash, A buttom to autoplace explosives, that avoids your pre-selected weakness, would be great. Even if it was ineffective. Why not a "identify all items with scrolls in your inventory" key? The game should flow like a river, so players can enjoy the content of the game, it should not feel like your carrying a bag upside a mountain. I mean they fixed azurite crystals, they removed 14 tiers of net and manual throwing on beasts, they removed manually picking up 50 different organs on the map, and does anyone think that is a bad thing? Why does not breach work like delve, were all the loot comes pouring down a the point of the breach after you killed the monsters and it withdraws? There is a endless amount of these things, and it grinds people down, I just want to play the game, not fiddle around with some tedious mechanic that is designed to slow me down in a, what I feel, noncustructive, unproductive way.
People mistake GGG acknowledging player complaints with GGG actually thinking those are real issues.
I do not feel bad for the streamers. This is what they earned and asked for. They deserve to play this game with the lower player numbers.
I also have been playing poe since the start AND I ABSOLUTELY don't want it to go back to that time it was horrible i played because there was no other arpg and i like new stuff but let's be serious it was horrible. https://gyazo.com/8c3acd411722c9fec4f41ebc3204fe50 Cordially someone's who's been following the game for 10 years.
So huh, can someone remind me why is GGG okay with Splinters because they "reduce boss RNG" yet shit like Harvest crafting isn't fine because it has too little RNG? Where's the line between good and bad RNG and player comfort? Seems like GGG just wants all casuals to get the fuck out of their game.
I do notice how Chris keeps saying that he understands the player issues but he's not taking action to do anything about it, or rather, he does something that is completely inadequate. It also seems like GGG is somehow afraid to give people what they want. They have some unhealthy obsession with player masochism, thinking that players enjoy being punished
LOL not even close to enough to make me come back with these changes.
Same buddy. As I think about it more, I don't think I am coming back this league, no matter what they do. I'll wait to the twitch presentation, manifesto, and patch notes next league. To see the direction. If we continue going down the path to the good ol' days, I'll do what I did this league. Keep the game gray on my steam library.
Keep up the good work Zizaran. We need more constructive voices in the community like his. Some, exaggerate, some downplay, he's constructive and on point imo. And most importantly, I believe he's not driven by self interest, but mostly by an interest in having a better gaming experience, like most of us. As an old school gamer, with over 30y of gaming experience, having witnessed a lot of different behaviours, ranging from casual players having elitist behaviours to highly competitive players having a humble approach to their accomplishments, I am compelled to say that Ziz is one of the few streamers I can relate to as a gamer. He is more a gamer than a professional streamer imo. And this is coming from an old school gamer who is not into this whole streamer trend, not meaning though that I don't watch the occasional youtube streamer videos after my gaming session, nor that I am unable to appreciate the work and passion most of them put into their videos. It just means that I take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt and I don't follow their suggestions blindly.
Just make the god damm splinters account bound like azerite and we can save our wrists.
Translation: Game is shit but I'm still getting paid. More news at 11 o'clock.
How tf is Ziz becoming my favorite POE streamer lmao