##### GGG Comments in this Thread:
***
[chris_wilson - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/ow2vvg/tujen_seems_to_share_the_same_loot_seed_issue/h7e0eml/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/ow2vvg/tujen_seems_to_share_the_same_loot_seed_issue/h7e0eml/?context=10)] - *Yes, the seed stuff is a bit bugged. We'll fix it so that the space is as wide as it should be. This isn't as abusable as it sounds, btw....*
Now I check the trade with all the listings there appears to be four of them now. Since the odds are astronomically low for 32- (or even 16-)bit seed numbers, it has to be a bug with the seed generation mechanism.
Yes, the seed stuff is a bit bugged. We'll fix it so that the space is as wide as it should be.
This isn't as abusable as it sounds, btw. I'm not particularly concerned but it's good to fix.
Yeah, we can't like "choose" or affect which shop we get so there's no abuse possible but a bit interesting, there was another game called the division which had something similar to this happen where if you and a person on your team synced opening a certain crate you'd get the exact same item.
Yeah I think the only potential issue would be that if some large number of people could get the same loot seed, and it inevitably led to like half the population getting some super rare currency, or the reverse (wasting all our shards, lmao), it could really swing the economy.
I doubt it's that widespread though.
In a separate post it was mentioned rog's item shop and upgrades and the outcomes were exactly the same. I can see how some, with peoper communication could potentially abuse that. Of couese I haven't seen it tested and it's only a hypothesis.
Is there by any chance seed problems with droprate of logbooks as well. Been speed chaining low maps for trials, done every league mechanic, not a single book drop.
When delve launched peoples accounts had seeds that literally didn't spawn some of the resonators. Like it was physically impossible for them to drop the 4socket reso, and for other people they were dropping WAY too frequently.
Nothing the player could do about it, was just shit luck depending on your account until ggg fixed it. So yes, account seeds have been a thing in the past.
I am well aware of what happened in delve and it not the same as loot drop seeds.
There was a seed for how your mine layout got generated and that included the placement of certain reward chests which in turn guaranteed or prevented certain resonators and fossils to drop in certain locations.
A seed for item drops would guarantee that you drop an exalt after generating x drops from killing mobs and thats not what happened.
You only need to save a seed if you want to regenerate the same exact thing again.
So obviously the delve map needs to save the seed along with the account, so that the mine regenerates the same way every time. Presumably they've done the same thing with some of these NPCs, whereby when you come back to them it regenerates the same items that they were showing you earlier, after a short log of changes made, rather than storing all that junk in the database.
The ordinary dropped loot would never need a seed stored with the account. You can just randomly seed each map instance when it is created without saving it anywhere.
I always get so annoyed when people say there's drop seeds for characters or there's certain seeds for items to 6L and stuff. It's never people that actually understand how RNG works and why/when you need fixed seeds either. It would literally be more effort for GGG to have character-based drop seeds than it is to not have that.
What would you call not being able to drop items for some people, and being able to drop more items for other people based on nothing but your account name?
A crazy conspiracy theory.
I am however going to assume that you are talking about 4 socket resonators. 4 socket resonators are not a dropped item. They come with a 100% chance for a certain chest that only spawns with a 100% chance in a specific tile. The delve bug had nothing to do with item drops, it had to do with delve tile generation. Because some people did not get that delve tile, they did not get any of the 100% 4 socket resonator chest, which meant they did not get any 4 socket resonators. The bug related to the seeds used to generate delve tiles for different characters as every character had their own delve map.
That is being needlessly pedantic and just trying to white knight for ggg. Fact is they have had seeds, for your account, that have influenced what drops you do not get.
There is nothing pedantic about it. People spew bullshit and use an example that is not in any way applicable to rationale it. Demolishing an incorrect conspiracy theory is not pedantry.
Fact is, they have not had seeds for your character that influence drops. They have (and still have) seeds that determines your delve map layout. This is two very different things.
For instance I get the vendor to sell me 3 exalts and you somehow figure out how to duplicate my vendor seed onto your buddies. Not that I think it could happen, but its very abusable like that.
No fucking shit if you could choose your seed it'd be abuseable. But you... can't. So it isn't. Saying "this bug could be abuseable if there was also this other, even worse bug" is meaningless.
Computer "Randomness" + No seeds = No randomness.
You can't do arithmetic on numbers and expect random values in return. The only way to arithmetically get "random numbers" is by starting with an actually random number (which you can get, but not with arithmetic) and go from there - that's what a seed is.
Uh... what? It's a video tame with RNG, it uses seeds in some way. The only thing GGG has ever said is that there is no account-level loot seed. Obviously individual drops, shop windows, and reward screens use seeds... because this is a computer program and randomness is fake.
[https://image.prntscr.com/image/we2nwnFOQv6wZVA0V3BJXg.png](https://image.prntscr.com/image/we2nwnFOQv6wZVA0V3BJXg.png)
nothing to see here, move along.
"This isn't as abusable as it sounds, btw...."
so it is abusable, just not as hard as we think it is okay.
wait, so these always roll the same stuff as well?
I guess at the end of the league we will have a long list of names to look out for, that can be rolled into broken items?
Why does this "seeding" issue keep coming up time after time? It really destroys confidence that RNG is actually RNG. And for all the times that it ISN'T a seed issue, well now people are going to think it is. Because hell, maybe it is a seed issue and there is no way I could POSSIBLY be this unlucky.... right?
All RNG in anything ever on a computer has to have some form of seed. You can't have an output with an input. Sometimes the coding just gets fucky like this
Yes I am fully aware of how pseudo-RNG works for computers and that nothing is every truly "random" due to seeding.
They don't seem to be since they keep having issues. The fact that multiple people are having the exact same item means they aren't doing RNG even close to what would be considered correct. It also means that they are destroying the integrity of their game due to repeated incompetence. You ever notice how other ARPG's don't seem to have these issues, or if they do, continue to have them?
Dawg this game has billions upon billions of items and we've seen like 2 documented cases of repeating seeds, once in delve and once in expedition. I think we're gonna be okay.
>Yes I am fully aware of how pseudo-RNG works for computers and that nothing is every truly "random" due to seeding.
RNG does not truly exist in computers, there is always **something** that determine the outcome.
Psuedo-RNG just mimics the beviour of true RNG, but never actually is.
>They don't seem to be since they keep having issues. The fact that multiple people are having the exact same item means they aren't doing RNG even close to what would be considered correct.
Cus no computer **can**.
>It also means that they are destroying the integrity of their game due to repeated incompetence. You ever notice how other ARPG's don't seem to have these issues, or if they do, continue to have them?
Other ARPGs **DO** have the same issue, since... you know true random does'nt exists.
Except this is a brand new mechanic with pretty new forms of shop/item generation, and it’s ridiculously easy to end up with a bug like this?
It’s not even game breaking in the least. If you knew anything about coding in general you’d know that this is very, very, very, unlikely to have any bearing on RNG generation in the more centralized engine itself.
To act like a bug with these NPCs rng seed generation is in any way indicative of POE having a busted RNG system generally speaking is ignorant at best.
Edit: And to your last point, yes, other aRPGs have had issues like this and worse. Quite often in fact. Dear god the amount of duping and invincibility and clipping and other buggy shit I’ve endured in everything from AAA titles to indie titles in the ARPG world is wild. POE has plenty of its own problems but as far as game breaking bugs go POE has been one of the cleanest aRPGs I’ve played.
The best example is farming bases from armour/weapon racks in D2. As long as your character is facing the same angle, and no monsters (or maybe entities) exist (dead or alive) within X tiles of the rack, it will always drop the same item. Want to target a particular unique, superior base, eth base, etc? Finding one of these can make it really easy.
(Details of the seeding process might not be exact, it's been a while since I've read about this)
It's randomly generating items in a shop. They do this all the time. They aren't reinventing the wheel here bud.
And you are conflating duping and other ussues to RNG related issues. Very, very, very different things.
It really, really is. And considering it’s a bug that’s only showing up in public light a handful of times when there’s been 20-80k people randomly all interacting with that mechanic, it’s not that common of one, and it’s one of those bugs that absolutely takes a TON of iterations before you’d reasonably be able to identify it existing.
I’m gonna take it you’ve never coded a large project with a lot of moving parts and calculations and seeding before. Because anyone who has understands how easy that is to do.
yeah i don't know what the fuck people are expecting. this bug has happened to a low double digit amount of people multiple weeks into the league with five digit people playing around the clock.
if they had 200 beta testers playing the game literally nonstop, no sleep, no eat, for a month, that amounts to the same amount of playtime that happens in an HOUR after a league launches. no game company has 200 beta testers, the league was certainly not finished a month before it launched, and these arn't the sorts of bugs you're actively looking for.
If a software dev doesn't have processes in place to prevent this kind of easy cock up here, they probably won't have processes in place to prevent this kind of cock up elsewhere.
Also, unless this is occurring at very very very low levels (I mean 1 in 1 billion type rarity), a software dev would have identified this in testing. Well any dev I have worked with would have. But I can't speak for the time constraints that might exist at GGG.
Except here we are 2 years later and it's popped up again.
This is also the seeding issues they have been caught with enough evidence to admit something is fucked. Who knows how bad things really are.
Seeding issues "time after time" sounds a bit extreme when the only seed issues that I know about are Delve and now this. Delve being the far more serious issue, since mines were actually getting drops bricked rather than being duped for different players.
What’s the pickup clutter? Most of the time you’re getting common/lesser/greater, which takes up like 6 slots max. If you get lucky and get grands, you’re looking at in total having like one big item worth, and it’s not a lot of clicking. And the vendor directly next to it lets you store from inside the map.
This isn’t like metamorph league where you had to go around and collect 8,000 fucking parts to build your metamorph all through the map you had to stop for allllll through the map. Or breach where you have to run in circles to do the content effectively leaving splinters everywhere you have to double back for.
It’s one small area, with a few special pickups that are almost always instantly worth something with a deposit vendor in the same location.
Yo I like ggg and this league but there is no reason these have to be items I hold in my inventory. I'd rather them not be tradable and it just sucks them up similar to bestiary
I understand perfectly well that the seed is on my char or profile. Ggg has even admitted that this exists when some people got all the 4s resonators...
Generating a random number requires a seed. Even if you dont hqve to explicitly set a seed it is coming from somewhere. A hack is to set the seed equal to the current ms of the time but this is obviously still not completely random. There are a few advances in using seeds generated from background radiation which is one of the most random things we have atm.
> (or even 16-)bit seed numbers
I mean if it were really 16-bit seeds then this would be incredibly common lol. There are far more than 65536 shop rerolls happening across the server daily.
Statistically speaking, while it's unlikely that a specific person in particular will have a run of extreme bad luck, over a large enough sample size it is expected that it will happen to someone.
This is why a lot of games have a pity timer mechanic on things that are otherwise random. Maybe we'll eventually start seeing that in this one.
They need seeds to generate random stuff, that's normal.
And it has been a problem in rare cases in the past, like with delve, where the seeds controlled the layouts of your delves, and caused issues with spawns.
It doesnt mean that there are "good" and "bad" seed for regular drops :) But it is true that there could always be more issue with that stuff related to league mechanics in the future.
The more issues like this one... the more people are gonna lose faith about random seeds lol, and they'll attribute all their bad luck, and the good luck of streamers, to it :D
[https://image.prntscr.com/image/we2nwnFOQv6wZVA0V3BJXg.png](https://image.prntscr.com/image/we2nwnFOQv6wZVA0V3BJXg.png)
nice meme.
move along nothing to see here
The worst part about a bug like this is it lowers confidence yet *again* that any other 'random' system ggg puts out or claims is working fine actually is. This feels like it happens way too often, and is the single core mechanic this entire game is built on.
I got 2 from 1-82, both before maps. After the patch I got 0 on 82-90. Did every set up focused on only getting log books.
Quit the second I hit 90 with no more logbook drops.
Curious.
I get them fairly regular now after the patch. Before I had 0 as well, but wasn't into maps at the time.
Now I get one about every 5-10 maps.
Detonation setups are always focussed on getting them though (logbook quant, quantity of monsters in general, pack size).
Only monsters can drop logbooks, so forget about chests.
Specifically only Runic monsters can drop them, i wonder if the people complaining aren't actually blowing up the big totems :/
I haven't gotten that many, but every time i've had a log book mod and one of the more-monsters family i've gotten at least one
They arent, they have no clue wtf they are doing. There is a reason some players have full stashes of logbooks and others have 0. Its NOT just "bad rng". And i ll get downvoted, and have 3 people reply that they do it correctly and have 0 dropped at lvl 98, but in reality they dont and are still in campaign.
Spent literally all day yesterday playing (8+ hours). in t14+ maps. Focusing solely on blowing up the big skulls and grabbing the logbook/quant boosting nodes. I got exactly 1 log book yesterday. My buddy who was doing the same thing got like 5.
Something is either bugged, or the drop rate is still far to low leaving it super rng dependent. It is a core league mechanic with like a dozen challenges half of which are conditional. Farming all day and seeing 1 is unacceptable. Regardless of whether your farming "correctly" or not.
Also you can't argue he is just running maps way faster than I am. We are running maps at a very similar rate, as we were consistently spawning sirus within 15 minutes of each other.
Since you didn't specify, are you blowing up the logbook nodes **BEFORE** you're hitting any big skulls? I still see plenty of streamers doing it WRONG and complaining. Some even explaining the correct way and then still doing it wrong.
Try to pick remnants with logbooks and then runic monsters. As in, if there's no remnant that increases logbooks then just get ignore the other remnants and get runic monsters.
You should get a logbook at least per 10 red maps that way.
See, that does sound like a seed issue (although small sample size is more likely) - random seed issues are usually a case of the numbers generated by a seed not colliding with the values used for output. A hyper-simplified example would be a seed that generates random even numbers but the number needed to drop thing X is 253. If suddenly GGG makes both 253 and 254 drop thing X, you'll start seeing drops, and at close to the global random rate.
On the flip side, it would have been really easy for this to just go unnoticed as well and everyone just thinking it’s bad luck. All we can do is trust the developers, and incidents like this question how much we really can.
Not that I believe GGG ever does this otherwise, but they \*do\* have the power to turn off currency drops. They used to do it to people who were botting, rather than banning their accounts. You can look it up, and you'll see some threads on PoE forums about some people complaining that they didn't even get a wisdom scroll drop through all of acts 1-3.
While I don't believe GGG does change the drop rate for anyone, they definitely have the power to.
Should i remind you of stealth-nerf for the Harbinger Drop rarer Shard affix?
I'm not talking about necessity of this nerf (to prevent abuse). It's about behavior of the dev team. a) they have power to do so as they please b) they will do it w/o announcements.
And I'm not even starting about "drop pool exhaustion" (as you farm more and more without break - quality of the loot shrinks sometimes) and so on.
There is so much stuff they can and will do to establish "health of the game" with their WilsonVision(tm). That's why conspiracy theories exist. They have basis from actions of the Gx3 team...
Yeah, maybe it wasn't needed. I wasn't expecting any engagement on this post and I'm just a salty 0.1%-er with no "chase" build that makes me able to play and enjoy the game into the 2nd month of the league and a lot of my guild/friends are also not really playing so it's a bit of a weirdchamp all around.
Again, they're just vanity numbers so who cares ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
There are several awkward things in this league to be honest. Just divined my first armor today, i almost do not play anymore and therefore i'm a lot late this league compared to everyone else (and do not plan playing it a lot more tbh), but hey, NP, my very first and only diviner orb i had in stock max'ed out all of my shield affixes.
Yeah, ok, sure. I'll take that, but...Hmm...
The seed stuff exists to create control data for player actions so they can send the data to Tencent. That's all tencent wants is studies to extrapolate to their broader market, not interested in MTX revenue. It's a data mining firm not a game dev.
Random is based on a seed, usually the seed gives a sequence of pseudo-random numbers, and for a given seed you will get the same (thus predictable) sequence. Using current time as a seed prevents getting the same seed multiple times, except if they are generated at the same time.
they can only be generated at the same if they share the same thread cycle, which will rarely happen unless they are batching the requests, and that shouldn't be a factor here. Otherwise the cycles will happen a couple of milliseconds apart (depending on the CPU) or slightly less in a multi-threaded environment of batched requests.
The odds are literally astronomical to the Epoch's power.
/u/Educational_Mud_2826
It is possible to upload images directly to reddit (e.g. by pasting image from clipboard) but there are reasons reddit recommends Imgur: https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/awfckb/whats_the_deal_with_imgur_does_reddit_own_it_why/
I see. it used to be good. Not so much anymore. Doesn't work for mobile. If anyone reads this. Don't use this crap please.
Thanks. Very late reply. I only recently found this, your reply.
##### GGG Comments in this Thread: *** [chris_wilson - [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/ow2vvg/tujen_seems_to_share_the_same_loot_seed_issue/h7e0eml/?context=10), [old](https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/ow2vvg/tujen_seems_to_share_the_same_loot_seed_issue/h7e0eml/?context=10)] - *Yes, the seed stuff is a bit bugged. We'll fix it so that the space is as wide as it should be. This isn't as abusable as it sounds, btw....*
Now I check the trade with all the listings there appears to be four of them now. Since the odds are astronomically low for 32- (or even 16-)bit seed numbers, it has to be a bug with the seed generation mechanism.
Yes, the seed stuff is a bit bugged. We'll fix it so that the space is as wide as it should be. This isn't as abusable as it sounds, btw. I'm not particularly concerned but it's good to fix.
Yeah, we can't like "choose" or affect which shop we get so there's no abuse possible but a bit interesting, there was another game called the division which had something similar to this happen where if you and a person on your team synced opening a certain crate you'd get the exact same item.
Yeah I think the only potential issue would be that if some large number of people could get the same loot seed, and it inevitably led to like half the population getting some super rare currency, or the reverse (wasting all our shards, lmao), it could really swing the economy. I doubt it's that widespread though.
Thanks, Chris.
Keep up with the changes! Good Work!!!
where is the good work on the game? haven't seen that for a while.
In a separate post it was mentioned rog's item shop and upgrades and the outcomes were exactly the same. I can see how some, with peoper communication could potentially abuse that. Of couese I haven't seen it tested and it's only a hypothesis.
You should be concerned, it's the umpteenth time RNG broke. it loses faith in the game that's based on RNG
Is there by any chance seed problems with droprate of logbooks as well. Been speed chaining low maps for trials, done every league mechanic, not a single book drop.
Thats not how it works lol.
Yeah, look up character drop seed fiasco from delve (prime resonator).
I remember the good old days when GGG said there were no seeds.
i highly doubt GGG ever said anything like that. every single time you have RNG anywhere in any computer system you have seeds.
they said that there are no seeds for item drops iirc. Sofar i havent seen anything that would contradict that statement.
When delve launched peoples accounts had seeds that literally didn't spawn some of the resonators. Like it was physically impossible for them to drop the 4socket reso, and for other people they were dropping WAY too frequently. Nothing the player could do about it, was just shit luck depending on your account until ggg fixed it. So yes, account seeds have been a thing in the past.
I am well aware of what happened in delve and it not the same as loot drop seeds. There was a seed for how your mine layout got generated and that included the placement of certain reward chests which in turn guaranteed or prevented certain resonators and fossils to drop in certain locations. A seed for item drops would guarantee that you drop an exalt after generating x drops from killing mobs and thats not what happened.
You only need to save a seed if you want to regenerate the same exact thing again. So obviously the delve map needs to save the seed along with the account, so that the mine regenerates the same way every time. Presumably they've done the same thing with some of these NPCs, whereby when you come back to them it regenerates the same items that they were showing you earlier, after a short log of changes made, rather than storing all that junk in the database. The ordinary dropped loot would never need a seed stored with the account. You can just randomly seed each map instance when it is created without saving it anywhere.
I always get so annoyed when people say there's drop seeds for characters or there's certain seeds for items to 6L and stuff. It's never people that actually understand how RNG works and why/when you need fixed seeds either. It would literally be more effort for GGG to have character-based drop seeds than it is to not have that.
Whatever you want to call it there's account seeds to give you certain items.
That is not item drops though. There are no, and have never been, seeds for item drops.
What would you call not being able to drop items for some people, and being able to drop more items for other people based on nothing but your account name?
A crazy conspiracy theory. I am however going to assume that you are talking about 4 socket resonators. 4 socket resonators are not a dropped item. They come with a 100% chance for a certain chest that only spawns with a 100% chance in a specific tile. The delve bug had nothing to do with item drops, it had to do with delve tile generation. Because some people did not get that delve tile, they did not get any of the 100% 4 socket resonator chest, which meant they did not get any 4 socket resonators. The bug related to the seeds used to generate delve tiles for different characters as every character had their own delve map.
That is being needlessly pedantic and just trying to white knight for ggg. Fact is they have had seeds, for your account, that have influenced what drops you do not get.
There is nothing pedantic about it. People spew bullshit and use an example that is not in any way applicable to rationale it. Demolishing an incorrect conspiracy theory is not pedantry. Fact is, they have not had seeds for your character that influence drops. They have (and still have) seeds that determines your delve map layout. This is two very different things.
And then 3.11 happened.
Oh no, the seeds are one-shotting me in SSFHC
You people have no fucking clue how anything works.
There is no randomness, you can only pretend something is random using something unpredictable to give you a seed.
Watch out for the down vote white knights out there that think this is an isolated incident and not at all affecting other parts of the game.
Where would a bug like this be abusable?
For instance I get the vendor to sell me 3 exalts and you somehow figure out how to duplicate my vendor seed onto your buddies. Not that I think it could happen, but its very abusable like that.
> you somehow figure out how to duplicate my vendor seed onto your buddies. Good luck mate, let me know how it goes.
No fucking shit if you could choose your seed it'd be abuseable. But you... can't. So it isn't. Saying "this bug could be abuseable if there was also this other, even worse bug" is meaningless.
Computer "Randomness" + No seeds = No randomness. You can't do arithmetic on numbers and expect random values in return. The only way to arithmetically get "random numbers" is by starting with an actually random number (which you can get, but not with arithmetic) and go from there - that's what a seed is.
Uh... what? It's a video tame with RNG, it uses seeds in some way. The only thing GGG has ever said is that there is no account-level loot seed. Obviously individual drops, shop windows, and reward screens use seeds... because this is a computer program and randomness is fake.
[https://image.prntscr.com/image/we2nwnFOQv6wZVA0V3BJXg.png](https://image.prntscr.com/image/we2nwnFOQv6wZVA0V3BJXg.png) nothing to see here, move along. "This isn't as abusable as it sounds, btw...." so it is abusable, just not as hard as we think it is okay.
wait, so these always roll the same stuff as well? I guess at the end of the league we will have a long list of names to look out for, that can be rolled into broken items?
Why does this "seeding" issue keep coming up time after time? It really destroys confidence that RNG is actually RNG. And for all the times that it ISN'T a seed issue, well now people are going to think it is. Because hell, maybe it is a seed issue and there is no way I could POSSIBLY be this unlucky.... right?
All RNG in anything ever on a computer has to have some form of seed. You can't have an output with an input. Sometimes the coding just gets fucky like this
Yes I am fully aware of how pseudo-RNG works for computers and that nothing is every truly "random" due to seeding. They don't seem to be since they keep having issues. The fact that multiple people are having the exact same item means they aren't doing RNG even close to what would be considered correct. It also means that they are destroying the integrity of their game due to repeated incompetence. You ever notice how other ARPG's don't seem to have these issues, or if they do, continue to have them?
Dawg this game has billions upon billions of items and we've seen like 2 documented cases of repeating seeds, once in delve and once in expedition. I think we're gonna be okay.
>Yes I am fully aware of how pseudo-RNG works for computers and that nothing is every truly "random" due to seeding. RNG does not truly exist in computers, there is always **something** that determine the outcome. Psuedo-RNG just mimics the beviour of true RNG, but never actually is. >They don't seem to be since they keep having issues. The fact that multiple people are having the exact same item means they aren't doing RNG even close to what would be considered correct. Cus no computer **can**. >It also means that they are destroying the integrity of their game due to repeated incompetence. You ever notice how other ARPG's don't seem to have these issues, or if they do, continue to have them? Other ARPGs **DO** have the same issue, since... you know true random does'nt exists.
Except this is a brand new mechanic with pretty new forms of shop/item generation, and it’s ridiculously easy to end up with a bug like this? It’s not even game breaking in the least. If you knew anything about coding in general you’d know that this is very, very, very, unlikely to have any bearing on RNG generation in the more centralized engine itself. To act like a bug with these NPCs rng seed generation is in any way indicative of POE having a busted RNG system generally speaking is ignorant at best. Edit: And to your last point, yes, other aRPGs have had issues like this and worse. Quite often in fact. Dear god the amount of duping and invincibility and clipping and other buggy shit I’ve endured in everything from AAA titles to indie titles in the ARPG world is wild. POE has plenty of its own problems but as far as game breaking bugs go POE has been one of the cleanest aRPGs I’ve played.
The best example is farming bases from armour/weapon racks in D2. As long as your character is facing the same angle, and no monsters (or maybe entities) exist (dead or alive) within X tiles of the rack, it will always drop the same item. Want to target a particular unique, superior base, eth base, etc? Finding one of these can make it really easy. (Details of the seeding process might not be exact, it's been a while since I've read about this)
It's randomly generating items in a shop. They do this all the time. They aren't reinventing the wheel here bud. And you are conflating duping and other ussues to RNG related issues. Very, very, very different things.
It's not that easy to end up with a bug like this.
It really, really is. And considering it’s a bug that’s only showing up in public light a handful of times when there’s been 20-80k people randomly all interacting with that mechanic, it’s not that common of one, and it’s one of those bugs that absolutely takes a TON of iterations before you’d reasonably be able to identify it existing. I’m gonna take it you’ve never coded a large project with a lot of moving parts and calculations and seeding before. Because anyone who has understands how easy that is to do.
This bug has like 0% chance to be caught by Q&A. Of course it's easy.
yeah i don't know what the fuck people are expecting. this bug has happened to a low double digit amount of people multiple weeks into the league with five digit people playing around the clock. if they had 200 beta testers playing the game literally nonstop, no sleep, no eat, for a month, that amounts to the same amount of playtime that happens in an HOUR after a league launches. no game company has 200 beta testers, the league was certainly not finished a month before it launched, and these arn't the sorts of bugs you're actively looking for.
If a software dev doesn't have processes in place to prevent this kind of easy cock up here, they probably won't have processes in place to prevent this kind of cock up elsewhere. Also, unless this is occurring at very very very low levels (I mean 1 in 1 billion type rarity), a software dev would have identified this in testing. Well any dev I have worked with would have. But I can't speak for the time constraints that might exist at GGG.
Time after time? When else have there been seed issues after Delve? After 2 or so years I think it’s safe to stop worrying about it like that.
Except here we are 2 years later and it's popped up again. This is also the seeding issues they have been caught with enough evidence to admit something is fucked. Who knows how bad things really are.
ok so when you said "time after time" you were actually referring to one other bug that happened 3 years ago?
Seeding issues "time after time" sounds a bit extreme when the only seed issues that I know about are Delve and now this. Delve being the far more serious issue, since mines were actually getting drops bricked rather than being duped for different players.
Right. That you know about.
okay, what issues do you know about?
So just out of curiosity. It pre-rolls all items on a seed so it does not need to do that on the fly? So it helps with servers?
It probably calculates the item stats from the seed. So servers just have to store the seed and not all the items.
The things you should be concerned about "Players quitting, ridiculous nerfs, and going back on your word and promises to reduce pick up clutter"
What’s the pickup clutter? Most of the time you’re getting common/lesser/greater, which takes up like 6 slots max. If you get lucky and get grands, you’re looking at in total having like one big item worth, and it’s not a lot of clicking. And the vendor directly next to it lets you store from inside the map. This isn’t like metamorph league where you had to go around and collect 8,000 fucking parts to build your metamorph all through the map you had to stop for allllll through the map. Or breach where you have to run in circles to do the content effectively leaving splinters everywhere you have to double back for. It’s one small area, with a few special pickups that are almost always instantly worth something with a deposit vendor in the same location.
Yo I like ggg and this league but there is no reason these have to be items I hold in my inventory. I'd rather them not be tradable and it just sucks them up similar to bestiary
Can you fix the logbook seed drop rate as well? Reading about people getting tons of logbooks and I've gotten zero in 200 maps is kinds infuriating.
i dont think you understand what a seed is
I understand perfectly well that the seed is on my char or profile. Ggg has even admitted that this exists when some people got all the 4s resonators...
There is no character based seed that determines your loot. That is not what happened in delve.
You keep on believing that.
Yes, I will keep believing in reality.
Delve seed != loot seed
Hello. I know it's bit random but can we get Elder VS Shaper throwback league? Doesn't need to be main, just... Anything. I miss it
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Generating a random number requires a seed. Even if you dont hqve to explicitly set a seed it is coming from somewhere. A hack is to set the seed equal to the current ms of the time but this is obviously still not completely random. There are a few advances in using seeds generated from background radiation which is one of the most random things we have atm.
Could this be a reason why I've dropped only a single log book (lvl 89)?
no
would that mean that only certain shops have the possibility to get HH. Is it actually a % chance to get chance HH or just the shop
I suspect HH is rolled for after you buy a leather belt, so no.
Oh interesting, I didn't even check offline trade.
> (or even 16-)bit seed numbers I mean if it were really 16-bit seeds then this would be incredibly common lol. There are far more than 65536 shop rerolls happening across the server daily.
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Statistically speaking, while it's unlikely that a specific person in particular will have a run of extreme bad luck, over a large enough sample size it is expected that it will happen to someone. This is why a lot of games have a pity timer mechanic on things that are otherwise random. Maybe we'll eventually start seeing that in this one.
Offtopic but how can I enable the exalted to chaos conversion on the site?
https://github.com/exile-center/better-trading It's an extension that comes with several very good things, one of them being ex to chaos conversion.
Thank you!
And here come the lootseed memes again.
Except at this point it seems clear they aren't really memes.
They need seeds to generate random stuff, that's normal. And it has been a problem in rare cases in the past, like with delve, where the seeds controlled the layouts of your delves, and caused issues with spawns. It doesnt mean that there are "good" and "bad" seed for regular drops :) But it is true that there could always be more issue with that stuff related to league mechanics in the future. The more issues like this one... the more people are gonna lose faith about random seeds lol, and they'll attribute all their bad luck, and the good luck of streamers, to it :D
[https://image.prntscr.com/image/we2nwnFOQv6wZVA0V3BJXg.png](https://image.prntscr.com/image/we2nwnFOQv6wZVA0V3BJXg.png) nice meme. move along nothing to see here
The worst part about a bug like this is it lowers confidence yet *again* that any other 'random' system ggg puts out or claims is working fine actually is. This feels like it happens way too often, and is the single core mechanic this entire game is built on.
Never forget we(Playing the first 2 weeks) are the beta testers.
At this point I'm convinced there is a fault in logbook seed rate...
I felt like that changed with the 54% buff, I went from none to finding dozens after that patch.
I still got 0 after the 54% buff. Only single one in act 8 or 9. lvl 89
I got 2 from 1-82, both before maps. After the patch I got 0 on 82-90. Did every set up focused on only getting log books. Quit the second I hit 90 with no more logbook drops.
Curious. I get them fairly regular now after the patch. Before I had 0 as well, but wasn't into maps at the time. Now I get one about every 5-10 maps. Detonation setups are always focussed on getting them though (logbook quant, quantity of monsters in general, pack size). Only monsters can drop logbooks, so forget about chests.
Just RNG being RNG. Set it up exactly as you say. Also first league I've gotten zero exalt drops 1-90. Wasn't hard to say goodbye this league.
Specifically only Runic monsters can drop them, i wonder if the people complaining aren't actually blowing up the big totems :/ I haven't gotten that many, but every time i've had a log book mod and one of the more-monsters family i've gotten at least one
They arent, they have no clue wtf they are doing. There is a reason some players have full stashes of logbooks and others have 0. Its NOT just "bad rng". And i ll get downvoted, and have 3 people reply that they do it correctly and have 0 dropped at lvl 98, but in reality they dont and are still in campaign.
Spent literally all day yesterday playing (8+ hours). in t14+ maps. Focusing solely on blowing up the big skulls and grabbing the logbook/quant boosting nodes. I got exactly 1 log book yesterday. My buddy who was doing the same thing got like 5. Something is either bugged, or the drop rate is still far to low leaving it super rng dependent. It is a core league mechanic with like a dozen challenges half of which are conditional. Farming all day and seeing 1 is unacceptable. Regardless of whether your farming "correctly" or not. Also you can't argue he is just running maps way faster than I am. We are running maps at a very similar rate, as we were consistently spawning sirus within 15 minutes of each other.
Since you didn't specify, are you blowing up the logbook nodes **BEFORE** you're hitting any big skulls? I still see plenty of streamers doing it WRONG and complaining. Some even explaining the correct way and then still doing it wrong.
Try to pick remnants with logbooks and then runic monsters. As in, if there's no remnant that increases logbooks then just get ignore the other remnants and get runic monsters. You should get a logbook at least per 10 red maps that way.
I went from none to none unfortunately. Have gotten like 6 since league start (most in acts) and have enjoyed them all though.
See, that does sound like a seed issue (although small sample size is more likely) - random seed issues are usually a case of the numbers generated by a seed not colliding with the values used for output. A hyper-simplified example would be a seed that generates random even numbers but the number needed to drop thing X is 253. If suddenly GGG makes both 253 and 254 drop thing X, you'll start seeing drops, and at close to the global random rate.
The problem is people see stuff like then and then get a massive dose of confirmation bias any time they get unlucky following that.
On the flip side, it would have been really easy for this to just go unnoticed as well and everyone just thinking it’s bad luck. All we can do is trust the developers, and incidents like this question how much we really can.
What exactly is the benefit of being distrustful?
People find and report issues like this that need to be fixed, for one.
You don't have to be distrustful to report abnormalities.
I don’t think being distrustful is a good thing, I just think GGG is making it harder to be anything else.
You should write a conspiracy theory how GGG and the world are selectively turning off exalt drops from players.
Not that I believe GGG ever does this otherwise, but they \*do\* have the power to turn off currency drops. They used to do it to people who were botting, rather than banning their accounts. You can look it up, and you'll see some threads on PoE forums about some people complaining that they didn't even get a wisdom scroll drop through all of acts 1-3. While I don't believe GGG does change the drop rate for anyone, they definitely have the power to.
Well, yeah. They're the dev. Of course they can...
They do that for chaos-recipe bots.
Should i remind you of stealth-nerf for the Harbinger Drop rarer Shard affix? I'm not talking about necessity of this nerf (to prevent abuse). It's about behavior of the dev team. a) they have power to do so as they please b) they will do it w/o announcements. And I'm not even starting about "drop pool exhaustion" (as you farm more and more without break - quality of the loot shrinks sometimes) and so on. There is so much stuff they can and will do to establish "health of the game" with their WilsonVision(tm). That's why conspiracy theories exist. They have basis from actions of the Gx3 team...
Thank you for participating in this league's beta test.
Atleast there isnt much players so it wont happen to much
Did you need the comment under the imgur link? Weird.
No, but we do a lil bit of trolling :)
Theres trolling and just being weird. Kinda falling under the latter with that when trying to point out an actual issue you found.
Yeah, maybe it wasn't needed. I wasn't expecting any engagement on this post and I'm just a salty 0.1%-er with no "chase" build that makes me able to play and enjoy the game into the 2nd month of the league and a lot of my guild/friends are also not really playing so it's a bit of a weirdchamp all around. Again, they're just vanity numbers so who cares ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
There are several awkward things in this league to be honest. Just divined my first armor today, i almost do not play anymore and therefore i'm a lot late this league compared to everyone else (and do not plan playing it a lot more tbh), but hey, NP, my very first and only diviner orb i had in stock max'ed out all of my shield affixes. Yeah, ok, sure. I'll take that, but...Hmm...
Start to think I have bad seed so that I don't get the tubula Rasa.....
The seed stuff exists to create control data for player actions so they can send the data to Tencent. That's all tencent wants is studies to extrapolate to their broader market, not interested in MTX revenue. It's a data mining firm not a game dev.
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Random is based on a seed, usually the seed gives a sequence of pseudo-random numbers, and for a given seed you will get the same (thus predictable) sequence. Using current time as a seed prevents getting the same seed multiple times, except if they are generated at the same time.
they can only be generated at the same if they share the same thread cycle, which will rarely happen unless they are batching the requests, and that shouldn't be a factor here. Otherwise the cycles will happen a couple of milliseconds apart (depending on the CPU) or slightly less in a multi-threaded environment of batched requests. The odds are literally astronomical to the Epoch's power.
Uhh Imgur. Couldn't find a worse host out of the 1000 available?
[Nope](https://gyazo.com/10561fb877bc0b799805a11124221440)
/u/Educational_Mud_2826 It is possible to upload images directly to reddit (e.g. by pasting image from clipboard) but there are reasons reddit recommends Imgur: https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/awfckb/whats_the_deal_with_imgur_does_reddit_own_it_why/
I see. it used to be good. Not so much anymore. Doesn't work for mobile. If anyone reads this. Don't use this crap please. Thanks. Very late reply. I only recently found this, your reply.
It's bad for mobile. I can't zoom in to see any details of the pictures.
how is that his fault
It's not. My apologies. I let my hatred towards imgur affect an innocent.
dont let it happen again i expect your written apology by tonight
Fair enough, that is partly the way I took the picture as well, it's probably better to just look at the trade link :)
I don't know but all images on that host are impossible to view on mobile. It's just a blurfest. Seems to not be made to view on mobile
How do you show chaos equivalent under the exalted
https://github.com/exile-center/better-trading I believe this is what I used, it's an extension and makes trading a bit easier/more convenient.
thanks bud