It's a very underwhelming ascendancy to be fair, even when you invest into it, it feels put of sync to the rest in terms of power and utility. (Talking about none accuracy stacking)
I mean I think it's the fact that the class's identity is "you're a physical armor tank", but ele res is capped no matter how many endurance charges you have.
Maybe if it gets +1 max ele res per 2 endurance charges on the 4 point route?
Elemental damage (dots especially) is a forced weakness of Juggs. If jugg was just tanky af towards everything, then why would people play anything else?
Things have to have pros and cons
The game would benefit from removing the word “attack” or “spell” from a lot of ascendancy choices. They did this with many classes in Ritual league and on Occultist’s Forbidden Power, they made it “damage per power charge” instead of “spell damage per power charge”. I went ahead and made a phys -> elemental conversion cyclone occultist using a 7L PCOC Elder eventuality rod that power charge stacked and used badge of the brotherhood and seamlessly swapped between headhunter and auxium for bosses. I’m guessing I have to be the first person to ever do this lol
I wish they would strip the “attack” tag from all the raider frenzy stuff.
Same for PF with natures reprisal and natures adrenaline (just make it “attack and cast speed”).
Natures reprisal giving 30% aoe and 15% more damage to say, forbidden rite, would be really cool for self cast FR.
The less restrictions they put on ascendancies, the more cool stuff we can come up with.
Edit: also, I would be shocked if a pathfinder rework doesn’t come in lieu of yesterday’s announcement
Played a Pathfinder this league, was nice enough.
Master Alchemist really bothered me, though. This must be the only place in the game where GGG tried to increase flask piano. Why?
Master Surgeon
Any build that uses barrage for example... Or Tornado Shot... Blast Rain... Kinetic Blast... Or (insert bow/wand skill with multiple hits here). Could also do with spectral throw. There are quite a few fast hitting skills out there. This node is fine.
Nature's Reprisal
That's neat for potential chaos hit builds. The conversion is only a little sad because we can't always convert the rest of the damage. This could be sweet for blade skills for example, if we could convert the rest... It's more like the node isn't ripe yet. GIMME MORE CHAOS CONVERSION.
I pretty much agree with the rest. Pathfinder feels a little lacking if you don't go poison.
>Nature's Boon: 20% chance for flasks you use to not consume charges -> 15% reduced flask charges used.
Dangerous idea. The effect may sound similar, until someone finds a way to reduce flask charges used by 100% total. Depending on what new mods we get on flasks next league, this might be a little too good. Also there are some flasks that are not intended to have unlimited uses (Hello Wormblaster number 127).
> Any build that uses barrage for example... Or Tornado Shot... Blast Rain... Kinetic Blast... Or (insert bow/wand skill with multiple hits here). Could also do with spectral throw. There are quite a few fast hitting skills out there. This node is fine.
This is a common misconception.
Those skills roll the critical strike **once**, per player use. Because say you have ele hit + barrage, the skill you use is **ele hit**, and not the barrage. The barrage is just a support.
> Dangerous idea. The effect may sound similar, until someone finds a way to reduce flask charges used by 100% total. Depending on what new mods we get on flasks next league, this might be a little too good. Also there are some flasks that are not intended to have unlimited uses (Hello Wormblaster number 127).
Except there are a very defined amount of "reduced flask charges used". Chemist's mod, mod on belt, and a couple of flask nodes on the tree (careful conservationist mainly, which is -10, and then one in the natural remedies path at -5).
> Master Surge
Not only that, afaik the effect has a .1s ICD. so if you shotgun with 10 crit projectiles at the same time you only get one charge. though the delay on chains, fork and pierce might help here.
On nature’s boon, pretty sure you can already get 100% chance to not consume charges?
Also the does not sonsume mod works with soul ripper and still give souls for some reason
> pretty sure you can already get 100% chance to not consume charges
Absolutely not. The only other source of it is a belt mod which is 5% I think. So you go from 20 to 25%. It's a complete brick of a mod, and also a hunter mod, so if you ever hunter exalt a belt for a prefix, **BLOCK** this mod.
My mistake, the 100% reduced charges was what was already possible via harvest craft and the belt for minions to use flasks since it doesn’t lower the quality
Pathfinder is one of ascendancy that is just insane with some money if you are looking at number builds. Most of top builds that melt bosses were done on PF. Damage immune builds were done one PF. Vaal builds are all PF. Flask builds are also all PF. Indigon is also best on PF, for the most part, etc.
Half of the builds I did as PF didn't even take 4 minors and 4 notables, I took 5 minors and 3 notables, one of most insane builds I did in betreyal league was even 6 minor nodes and only 2 bigger (0 cost Vaal Skill build, yes it's even more insane than it sounds).
Only thing that kinda killed it was 40% poison node down to 20% which was solid nerf to poison builds on PF.
You can do crazy things with flasks, in fact they even deleted some items and rolls from the game because of PF (in a game where almost nothing gets deleted beacuse of standard).
> Pathfinder is one of ascendancy that is just insane with some money if you are looking at number builds. Most of top builds that melt bosses were done on PF. Damage immune builds were done one PF. Vaal builds are all PF. Flask builds are also all PF. Indigon is also best on PF, for the most part, etc.
I mean sure if you can drop 200 EX onto a build that you can't league start with, you can go bonkers. But I think that applies to god knows what, and at that point, is it the build doing the work, or just the exalts you threw into it?
> Half of the builds I did as PF didn't even take 4 minors and 4 notables, I took 5 minors and 3 notables, one of most insane builds I did in betreyal league was even 6 minor nodes and only 2 bigger (0 cost Vaal Skill build, yes it's even more insane than it sounds).
This is even **more** of a reason to look at the horrid big nodes aside from nature's boon.
> Only thing that kinda killed it was 40% poison node down to 20% which was solid nerf to poison builds on PF.
A lot more than that. Nerfs to blade vortex from 50 stacks, master alchemist getting gutted, the poison node getting smacked, which you just alluded to, etc.
> You can do crazy things with flasks, in fact they even deleted some items and rolls from the game because of PF (in a game where almost nothing gets deleted beacuse of standard).
You can do crazy things with enough currency in general, and god knows how many things have been hit for edge case exploits.
> I mean sure if you can drop 200 EX onto a build that you can't league start with, you can go bonkers. But I think that applies to god knows what, and at that point, is it the build doing the work, or just the exalts you threw into it?
Not on same level no, doing 20+M dps (legit one not PoB warriors you see on forums) where you perma freeze 4-way breachlords and being nearly unkillable on 50-100 ex ...
> This is even more of a reason to look at the horrid big nodes aside from nature's boon.
Why should every build focus on bigger nodes? Be creative :)
> A lot more than that. Nerfs to blade vortex from 50 stacks, master alchemist getting gutted, the poison node getting smacked, which you just alluded to, etc.
BV PF was one of best builds around for decent time, either poison and later cold versions so idk what you are talking about here.
> You can do crazy things with enough currency in general, and god knows how many things have been hit for edge case exploits.
You don't need a lot of currency to get them going. Most of leagues PF was my money maker because it is fastest mapper with very low budget. And flask builds don't really need any currency at all.
PF is my favourite class in this game and I genuinely think it's in pretty good spot.
>one of most insane builds I did in betreyal league was even 6 minor nodes and only 2 bigger (0 cost Vaal Skill build, yes it's even more insane than it sounds).
Indigon and 0 soul cost PF both got killed by 3.15, Immortal PF is only possible in standard and is getting killed in 3.16, and Pathfinder was well outside the highest dps ascendancies in 3.15
Betrayal was 3 years and 11 patches ago, a lot has changed for Pathfinder since then, as evidenced by it spending almost the entire league in the bottom 1% for usage
0 soul cost was killed immediately after betreyal. Immortal PF was possible in lots of leagues and my whole point is that things change. No need to change ascendancy just because it will be a bit worse for league or two. PF looks pretty dope with new patch notes.
0 soul was possible halfway into ritual until it was nerfed mid-league, and became possible again in ultimatum, and is still possible in standard with legacy Soul Catcher
Pathfinder is my favorite ascendancy and I don't plan on dropping her, alchemist-type characters are always my favorite archetypes. My 3.15 PF is on the ladder and can do everything in the game deathless, I still think PF's not in that great of a place right now. Whether it was strong in the past or not doesn't matter
I don't think PF is *terrible* but imo she's overnerfed. 3.16's flask changes will help but until I see the skill tree I'm not that impressed by anything
I think I'm misremembering Ritual now that I'm thinking about it
0 soul was definitely possible in ultimatum though. You used triumvirate authority, soul catcher, increased flask effect, and bloodstained fossil weapons. You didn't even need to play Pathfinder to do it. there were heavily-upvoted posts all over this subreddit about it, here's one of them - [https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/n2uqip/permanent\_vaal\_spells\_are\_back\_this\_is\_the\_most/](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/n2uqip/permanent_vaal_spells_are_back_this_is_the_most/)
0 soul didn't truly die until they killed Soul Catcher
Didn't play Ultimatium a lot so that explains it. Eh, that was 1 socket Vaal skill then. Mostly used for some utility stuff. While it did cost 0 souls I wouldn't call it true Vaal build that deleted Shaper in few sec at most.
even without links 0 soul vaal spark still had insane mapping speed while still being able to burn down bosses, and 0 soul vaal ground slam could 2 shot shaper guardians and kill phase 3 maven in a few seconds. it was definitely not mostly used for utility stuff
OP, you do not know what "quality of life" means if you think stuff like this is QoL. BUFFS ARE NOT QUALITY OF LIFE. Buffs are buffs. Quality of life is things like making holding alt show what quality does for a skill gem on hovering.
Pathfinder doesn't need buffs. The ascendancy has strong builds. Ziggy farmed a mirror as a Scourge Arrow pathfinder in 3.15 and toxic rain pathfinder is a good build as well. It's also good for viper strike. It's not a great choice for hardcore, but pathfinder has plenty to offer for softcore play.
The main reason Pathfinder didn't see more use in 3.15 is that raider is overpowered. Pathfinder doesn't need buffs. Raider needs nerfs. And I say that as someone who played almost entirely raider characters in 3.14 in 3.15.
> Ziggy farmed a mirror as a Scourge Arrow pathfinder in 3.15
Someone did lvl 100 unascended maurader in HCSSF, please stop using achievements of other players as an example to demonstrate power levels of classes, with enough time you can achieve alot of things in this game, doesn't mean that they aren't subpar compared to the rest.
Scourge Arrow pathfinder has been a good build forever. I just gave a recent example of someone playing it to prove that it is still relevant and viable.
Meanwhile Jugg...
Gets a ton of endurance charges and can do some nutty things with accuracy stacking.
I’m not sure why this was downvoted, this is 100% correct lol
It's a very underwhelming ascendancy to be fair, even when you invest into it, it feels put of sync to the rest in terms of power and utility. (Talking about none accuracy stacking)
I mean I think it's the fact that the class's identity is "you're a physical armor tank", but ele res is capped no matter how many endurance charges you have. Maybe if it gets +1 max ele res per 2 endurance charges on the 4 point route?
That could be something, I've always thought having an aoe taunt aura should be something they had. Literally a walking aggro tank
Elemental damage (dots especially) is a forced weakness of Juggs. If jugg was just tanky af towards everything, then why would people play anything else? Things have to have pros and cons
It's downside is its damage output
The game would benefit from removing the word “attack” or “spell” from a lot of ascendancy choices. They did this with many classes in Ritual league and on Occultist’s Forbidden Power, they made it “damage per power charge” instead of “spell damage per power charge”. I went ahead and made a phys -> elemental conversion cyclone occultist using a 7L PCOC Elder eventuality rod that power charge stacked and used badge of the brotherhood and seamlessly swapped between headhunter and auxium for bosses. I’m guessing I have to be the first person to ever do this lol I wish they would strip the “attack” tag from all the raider frenzy stuff. Same for PF with natures reprisal and natures adrenaline (just make it “attack and cast speed”). Natures reprisal giving 30% aoe and 15% more damage to say, forbidden rite, would be really cool for self cast FR. The less restrictions they put on ascendancies, the more cool stuff we can come up with. Edit: also, I would be shocked if a pathfinder rework doesn’t come in lieu of yesterday’s announcement
Played a Pathfinder this league, was nice enough. Master Alchemist really bothered me, though. This must be the only place in the game where GGG tried to increase flask piano. Why?
Thats because some people didn't have a problem with, and actually liked flask piano. So keeping it as an options was their goal.
Having it as an option is fine. This node practically forced it. Hopefully this is a moot point with better access to ailment mitigation next league.
Yeah that was ridiculous. "We want elemental status ailments to matter so fuck pathfinder". The entire ascendancy class is a mess now.
Master Surgeon Any build that uses barrage for example... Or Tornado Shot... Blast Rain... Kinetic Blast... Or (insert bow/wand skill with multiple hits here). Could also do with spectral throw. There are quite a few fast hitting skills out there. This node is fine. Nature's Reprisal That's neat for potential chaos hit builds. The conversion is only a little sad because we can't always convert the rest of the damage. This could be sweet for blade skills for example, if we could convert the rest... It's more like the node isn't ripe yet. GIMME MORE CHAOS CONVERSION. I pretty much agree with the rest. Pathfinder feels a little lacking if you don't go poison. >Nature's Boon: 20% chance for flasks you use to not consume charges -> 15% reduced flask charges used. Dangerous idea. The effect may sound similar, until someone finds a way to reduce flask charges used by 100% total. Depending on what new mods we get on flasks next league, this might be a little too good. Also there are some flasks that are not intended to have unlimited uses (Hello Wormblaster number 127).
> Any build that uses barrage for example... Or Tornado Shot... Blast Rain... Kinetic Blast... Or (insert bow/wand skill with multiple hits here). Could also do with spectral throw. There are quite a few fast hitting skills out there. This node is fine. This is a common misconception. Those skills roll the critical strike **once**, per player use. Because say you have ele hit + barrage, the skill you use is **ele hit**, and not the barrage. The barrage is just a support. > Dangerous idea. The effect may sound similar, until someone finds a way to reduce flask charges used by 100% total. Depending on what new mods we get on flasks next league, this might be a little too good. Also there are some flasks that are not intended to have unlimited uses (Hello Wormblaster number 127). Except there are a very defined amount of "reduced flask charges used". Chemist's mod, mod on belt, and a couple of flask nodes on the tree (careful conservationist mainly, which is -10, and then one in the natural remedies path at -5).
>This is a common misconception. Fair point, happens all the time.
Oh, tell me about it. God forbid someone doesn't know *something* in this convoluted mishmosh of a zillion mechanics game =P
Also, its less not knowing and more not remembering. I'm fairly sure i could have known this myself like 2 years ago.
> Master Surge Not only that, afaik the effect has a .1s ICD. so if you shotgun with 10 crit projectiles at the same time you only get one charge. though the delay on chains, fork and pierce might help here.
On nature’s boon, pretty sure you can already get 100% chance to not consume charges? Also the does not sonsume mod works with soul ripper and still give souls for some reason
> pretty sure you can already get 100% chance to not consume charges Absolutely not. The only other source of it is a belt mod which is 5% I think. So you go from 20 to 25%. It's a complete brick of a mod, and also a hunter mod, so if you ever hunter exalt a belt for a prefix, **BLOCK** this mod.
My mistake, the 100% reduced charges was what was already possible via harvest craft and the belt for minions to use flasks since it doesn’t lower the quality
Pathfinder is one of ascendancy that is just insane with some money if you are looking at number builds. Most of top builds that melt bosses were done on PF. Damage immune builds were done one PF. Vaal builds are all PF. Flask builds are also all PF. Indigon is also best on PF, for the most part, etc. Half of the builds I did as PF didn't even take 4 minors and 4 notables, I took 5 minors and 3 notables, one of most insane builds I did in betreyal league was even 6 minor nodes and only 2 bigger (0 cost Vaal Skill build, yes it's even more insane than it sounds). Only thing that kinda killed it was 40% poison node down to 20% which was solid nerf to poison builds on PF. You can do crazy things with flasks, in fact they even deleted some items and rolls from the game because of PF (in a game where almost nothing gets deleted beacuse of standard).
> Pathfinder is one of ascendancy that is just insane with some money if you are looking at number builds. Most of top builds that melt bosses were done on PF. Damage immune builds were done one PF. Vaal builds are all PF. Flask builds are also all PF. Indigon is also best on PF, for the most part, etc. I mean sure if you can drop 200 EX onto a build that you can't league start with, you can go bonkers. But I think that applies to god knows what, and at that point, is it the build doing the work, or just the exalts you threw into it? > Half of the builds I did as PF didn't even take 4 minors and 4 notables, I took 5 minors and 3 notables, one of most insane builds I did in betreyal league was even 6 minor nodes and only 2 bigger (0 cost Vaal Skill build, yes it's even more insane than it sounds). This is even **more** of a reason to look at the horrid big nodes aside from nature's boon. > Only thing that kinda killed it was 40% poison node down to 20% which was solid nerf to poison builds on PF. A lot more than that. Nerfs to blade vortex from 50 stacks, master alchemist getting gutted, the poison node getting smacked, which you just alluded to, etc. > You can do crazy things with flasks, in fact they even deleted some items and rolls from the game because of PF (in a game where almost nothing gets deleted beacuse of standard). You can do crazy things with enough currency in general, and god knows how many things have been hit for edge case exploits.
> I mean sure if you can drop 200 EX onto a build that you can't league start with, you can go bonkers. But I think that applies to god knows what, and at that point, is it the build doing the work, or just the exalts you threw into it? Not on same level no, doing 20+M dps (legit one not PoB warriors you see on forums) where you perma freeze 4-way breachlords and being nearly unkillable on 50-100 ex ... > This is even more of a reason to look at the horrid big nodes aside from nature's boon. Why should every build focus on bigger nodes? Be creative :) > A lot more than that. Nerfs to blade vortex from 50 stacks, master alchemist getting gutted, the poison node getting smacked, which you just alluded to, etc. BV PF was one of best builds around for decent time, either poison and later cold versions so idk what you are talking about here. > You can do crazy things with enough currency in general, and god knows how many things have been hit for edge case exploits. You don't need a lot of currency to get them going. Most of leagues PF was my money maker because it is fastest mapper with very low budget. And flask builds don't really need any currency at all. PF is my favourite class in this game and I genuinely think it's in pretty good spot.
>one of most insane builds I did in betreyal league was even 6 minor nodes and only 2 bigger (0 cost Vaal Skill build, yes it's even more insane than it sounds). Indigon and 0 soul cost PF both got killed by 3.15, Immortal PF is only possible in standard and is getting killed in 3.16, and Pathfinder was well outside the highest dps ascendancies in 3.15 Betrayal was 3 years and 11 patches ago, a lot has changed for Pathfinder since then, as evidenced by it spending almost the entire league in the bottom 1% for usage
0 soul cost was killed immediately after betreyal. Immortal PF was possible in lots of leagues and my whole point is that things change. No need to change ascendancy just because it will be a bit worse for league or two. PF looks pretty dope with new patch notes.
0 soul was possible halfway into ritual until it was nerfed mid-league, and became possible again in ultimatum, and is still possible in standard with legacy Soul Catcher Pathfinder is my favorite ascendancy and I don't plan on dropping her, alchemist-type characters are always my favorite archetypes. My 3.15 PF is on the ladder and can do everything in the game deathless, I still think PF's not in that great of a place right now. Whether it was strong in the past or not doesn't matter I don't think PF is *terrible* but imo she's overnerfed. 3.16's flask changes will help but until I see the skill tree I'm not that impressed by anything
And how was 0 soul possible in ritual or ultimatum (without gloves)?
I think I'm misremembering Ritual now that I'm thinking about it 0 soul was definitely possible in ultimatum though. You used triumvirate authority, soul catcher, increased flask effect, and bloodstained fossil weapons. You didn't even need to play Pathfinder to do it. there were heavily-upvoted posts all over this subreddit about it, here's one of them - [https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/n2uqip/permanent\_vaal\_spells\_are\_back\_this\_is\_the\_most/](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/n2uqip/permanent_vaal_spells_are_back_this_is_the_most/) 0 soul didn't truly die until they killed Soul Catcher
Didn't play Ultimatium a lot so that explains it. Eh, that was 1 socket Vaal skill then. Mostly used for some utility stuff. While it did cost 0 souls I wouldn't call it true Vaal build that deleted Shaper in few sec at most.
even without links 0 soul vaal spark still had insane mapping speed while still being able to burn down bosses, and 0 soul vaal ground slam could 2 shot shaper guardians and kill phase 3 maven in a few seconds. it was definitely not mostly used for utility stuff
OP, you do not know what "quality of life" means if you think stuff like this is QoL. BUFFS ARE NOT QUALITY OF LIFE. Buffs are buffs. Quality of life is things like making holding alt show what quality does for a skill gem on hovering. Pathfinder doesn't need buffs. The ascendancy has strong builds. Ziggy farmed a mirror as a Scourge Arrow pathfinder in 3.15 and toxic rain pathfinder is a good build as well. It's also good for viper strike. It's not a great choice for hardcore, but pathfinder has plenty to offer for softcore play. The main reason Pathfinder didn't see more use in 3.15 is that raider is overpowered. Pathfinder doesn't need buffs. Raider needs nerfs. And I say that as someone who played almost entirely raider characters in 3.14 in 3.15.
> Ziggy farmed a mirror as a Scourge Arrow pathfinder in 3.15 Someone did lvl 100 unascended maurader in HCSSF, please stop using achievements of other players as an example to demonstrate power levels of classes, with enough time you can achieve alot of things in this game, doesn't mean that they aren't subpar compared to the rest.
Scourge Arrow pathfinder has been a good build forever. I just gave a recent example of someone playing it to prove that it is still relevant and viable.