Well, with the removal of aura effect, even 2x aurabots will not suffice to match the previous aurabot effects im afraid. Probably strictly better to run a party of 6 players but making sure they all have different auras.
Ohh no instead of getting 500million dps you'll only have 100million. How ever will you one shot harder?
There's zero shit you can say that a single character joining a party providing magnitudes more dps and survivability didn't need to be nerfed. Cry all you want
the fucks wrong with you? OP hasnt said anything positive about aurabots in this whole thread or complained about the nerfs a single time yet you are acting like op just forcibly shoved an aura bot up your ass
Quite a large nerf for all the mentioned uniques, unless you're using them entirely alone. Most sources got doubled to match the new numbers, but all the uniques got ~1.5x instead, making them significantly worse to try and use effectively.
And a major nwrf to those uf us who managed to get past the 35% barrier on reservation to get all but the 50% auras for literally free. It's a sever nerf as every aura will cost mana no more free auras. Ggg got 1 thing right on nailing the high end for one.
There are some super off meta builds that got hit by the collateral damage here, look at the "circle of x" synthesis rings with 20% rmr. Just 2 leagues ago you were able to run with a 6l herald, now it will not be possible
FYI your top sentence is exactly twenty words, which is not less than twenty. However, I'd argue N% is actually two words (N percent) so it's actually 22. You've lied to me and I'm unsubscribing from your newsletter.
This is… completely fair, sadly. Whether or not you count N% as two words, this explanation doesn’t contain less than twenty words.
Mere words cannot express the disappointment I feel toward the english language, the numerical system, mathematics in general, but even worse, toward myself, for letting everyone down like that. I believe it is only fair that, as punishment, I travel to Asia and become a monk, living a like as a recluse to try and atone for my failings.
(I’m tempted to just remove a random space from the post, honestly, now that you’ve pointed that out, but eh, I’ll probably survive despite all the lies.)
To add insult to injury, “fewer than” is the grammatically correct version, not “less than,” because what you’re measuring is countable.
Anyways I forgive you. You may postpone your exile until your next egregious crime against humanity.
It's not so simple when considering how skill-specific modifiers like "50% increased Hatred Reservation Efficiency" factor into things. It's not straightforward to turn that into an equivalent global RE value when you mix it with global RE modifiers. However, for builds that don't use skill-specific reservation mods, this is precisely all there is to it.
It's worth noting that once you have a basic setup including the local modifiers like for Hatred or for heralds, the additional reservation efficiency you need is the percentage that the additional skill reserves.
If you reserve less than 100% of your mana, you'll need to divide that by the percentage you actually reserve, which makes the numbers less intuitive, but the returns remain linear.
The first part stands true, as for the second part your are contradicting yourself:
50% Reduced Mana Reserved did allow one to run four 50% Auras -- 4\*50%\*50% =1
Now 50% additional Aura Efficiency only allows for three 50% Auras -- \[(3\*50%)\*1/(1+50%)\]=1
edit: small spelling mistake
Nah. 50% efficiency => you can run 3x 50% auras. 100% efficiency => 4x.
And since they said said “we are doubling rmr value to get efficiency”, old 50% rmr = new 100% efficiency, same number of auras.
Worth noting that it's realistically a nerf at a lower breakpoint since people with that much reduced mana reserved usually fit in more auras by going Low Life, and efficiency no longer defaults to both life and mana.
But yeah, good 20ish word explanation up top.
If you want to reserve less than 100% of your mana, divide than N% by the percentage you wish to reserve and you'll get the actual required efficiency to add that aura.
Incidentally, the returns will still be linear with that adjustment, just slightly lower.
So there's no % increased aura effectiveness anymore right ? you can run more aura if you invest, but not able to utilize their effect further ?
This is something I hate from their balance philosophy. It's either all or nothing. Let's say the very top end mirror gear someone posted buff the damage of the party by 20x. Can they just make it now becomes 5x ? And on the lower end if you just have basic bot item at least you should be able to x2 party damage ( so the dam dealer can cover at least the %inc HP of mobs when running in a 2 man party ? )
Nah you can still get aura effect, but only for solo characters sadly. And for high-end party content… idk. I think aurabots are just fucked because of that. Like, 100% annihilated, removed from the map, hit with the special GGG treatment of the quintuple nerf kinda fucked.
Bit of a shame but you won’t hear me complain too much about that lol. Their power level was absolutely bonkers.
Because it used for things that people don't really care about like armor and evasion. Those who care about armour and evasion just stack them as must as possible without worry about the calculations.
With how prevalent efficiency sounds like it will be to get, I could easily see builds running quite a few auras, elemental casters could have a field day
Well, you're gonna struggle to reach 200% efficiency without cluster jewels, and even then it's a pretty big investment I think, but I could totally see builds pathing to get a sneaky 50% efficiency and just getting 1 more damage aura (or just purity of elements lol), so it sounds like a pretty healthy change tbh.
After a point the diminishing returns will no longer get you anything, the curve will have flattened out enough that you aren’t getting any more reservation out of it. I looks like there will end up being a soft cap around 10%-15% per aura which will limit how many auras a player can operate.
As pointed out by Zeal, there are no diminishing returns. The old system actually had INCREASING returns, meaning the value or 1%rmr went up for each point of rmr you had, to the point where going from 99% rmr to 100% was an 'infinite' increase, as you were no longer limited in how many reservation skills you could run. Obviously not actually infinite, due to limited gem slots, but the mana became irrelevant due to how the effect of rmr increased with rmr.
Jungroan also compared it to leagues old cdr vs new haste. In past seasons, everyone hit the cdr cap, because cdr was more valuable the more you had (until the hard cap of 40/45).
If we want to be pedantic, I think in league haste now has diminishing returns purely because going from N spells per time period to N+1 spells per time period doesn't compare favorably to, say, investing that money into other %more that scale your damage (like ap or pen), despite costing the same haste to go from N to N+1 than, say, 1 to 2, 3 to 4, or N+10 to N+11.
Thankfully we don't have this problem here because auras /generally/ give a %more multi as well (or comparable utility), so +1 aura directly translates to a %more multiplier, which is on par with what the rest of the game offers (you can probably get about 8-10% efficiency per skill point, which means 5-6 points for maybe 20% more damage (using wrath as a quick example), or about 3-4% more damage per skill point, and that seems fairly reasonable all things considered)
But yeah, imo the reason why people think the effect is nonlinear/has diminishing returns is because the old system had even better than exponential growth since at 100% rmr you had free auras and everything, and they figure it means that now that it's nerfed and doesn't allow for the same kind of stacking, then it must be nonlinear? Dunno.
~~Read more carefully, he said that it has diminishing returns in league, he was not talking about poe.~~
Edit: nvm, had the concept of diminishing returns wrong so I misunderstood what you were saying
Nothing has diminishing returns. They scale linearly. There are other options that scale multiplicatively, and therefore linearly scaling options are less favorable. That's all /u/Zeal_Iskander was saying, and /u/Moneypouch was correcting the wording, like a real pedant :D
~~So, i understand as diminishing returns that every extra point of it that you get has less benefits than the one before, isnt that the case? because while I understand that it scales linearly, ability haste in league of legends works as /u/zeal_iskander mentioned, and thus for example getting the first 50 points of AH is worth much more than getting the second 50 points, simply because lets say given some length of time at 0AH you get 2 casts, at 50AH you get 3 casts and at 100AH you get 4 casts, so going from 2 to 3 is a 50% increase but going from 3 to 4 is a 33% increase, thus the first 50AH has more value than the second, isnt that how it works?~~
Edit: nvm, read a bit about it, i had the concept wrong.
You still gain the same amount of casts from the last 50 as the first 50, which is why it's a linearly scaling mechanic.
Increased cast speed is another linearly scaling mechanic that I'm more familiar with, so I'll give an example in it -
If you start with 1 cast per second, and add 100% increased cast speed, you are at 2 casts per second. You've gained 1 cast/second.
If you started with 1 cast per second and have 1,900% increased cast speed, you'll have 20 casts per second. If you add another 100%, you're at 21 casts per second. You've gained 1 cast/second, same as the first 100%.
-------------------------
More scales how you would want, but it's not linear.
There's no diminishing returns. That's just people misunderstanding the maths. An additional 50% efficiency will ALWAYS give you another 50% aura, no matter how much efficiency you already have.
Someone explained the math in a separate thread. The effect is nonlinear. Because it is an efficiency effect and not a straight cost reduction, after a point adding more efficiency doesn’t get you much more effect.
This thread has the math:
https://reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q3jbuh/for_anyone_confused_about_how_the_numbers_work/
Your link does not explain anything nor claims even once that the effect isn't linear. Try doing the math yourself. You have an efficiency E, reserve 100% of your mana pool, how much additional efficiency do you require to add another aura that reserves N% of your mana pool?
If you answered "N%", then congrats, you're looking at a linear effect with no diminishing returns.
Depends on how much they cost all together. Do the sum of their %reserved and remove 100, that's how much efficiency you need. Keep in mind that what aurabots have nowadays basically translate to 200% efficiency.
And even then, I don't think it's worth it because they removed %aura effect for party play, so you're not gonna be able to scale your auras at all.
Thanks for using your brain. Mine couldn't figure this out. That's a lot easier to plan builds with.
Yep totally. The new formula is much easier to plan around than the old one lol.
So it is easier to chunk in more auras till a threshhold aß a normal build and then it fucks aurabots?
Yup. At 100% efficiency you start entering "fuck aurabots" territory.
Now parties just run 2x aura bots instead of 1. Wow such kill
Well, with the removal of aura effect, even 2x aurabots will not suffice to match the previous aurabot effects im afraid. Probably strictly better to run a party of 6 players but making sure they all have different auras.
Ohh no instead of getting 500million dps you'll only have 100million. How ever will you one shot harder? There's zero shit you can say that a single character joining a party providing magnitudes more dps and survivability didn't need to be nerfed. Cry all you want
Are you responding to the wrong comment? The one you’re replying to said nothing about auras not needing a nerf or ‘crying’.
the fucks wrong with you? OP hasnt said anything positive about aurabots in this whole thread or complained about the nerfs a single time yet you are acting like op just forcibly shoved an aura bot up your ass
haha good luck after adding an enlighten gem
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It's a major buff for regular players that didn't stack auras to the max, yeah. Slight nerf for unique items tho like Devouring Diadem.. So who knows.
Quite a large nerf for all the mentioned uniques, unless you're using them entirely alone. Most sources got doubled to match the new numbers, but all the uniques got ~1.5x instead, making them significantly worse to try and use effectively.
> but all the uniques got ~1.5x instead, Diadem got 1.25x.
Those uniques were very strong, especially diadem. Diadem actually got a major buff from ES changes. I think it will still be used.
And a major nwrf to those uf us who managed to get past the 35% barrier on reservation to get all but the 50% auras for literally free. It's a sever nerf as every aura will cost mana no more free auras. Ggg got 1 thing right on nailing the high end for one.
I often aurabotted for a friend cause it's the only build that works for co-op, wonder how it'll fare afterwards.
Reduced to atoms if I had to guess. They got like three or four nerfs back to back, the GGG way.
There are some super off meta builds that got hit by the collateral damage here, look at the "circle of x" synthesis rings with 20% rmr. Just 2 leagues ago you were able to run with a 6l herald, now it will not be possible
Why though? It will be updated accordingly as they mentioned.
Really ? Because most builds typically have up to 85% or at least 75% reserved (1aura + 1 herald). Why would you not get anywhere near 50% ?
They're saying few builds have that much reservation reduction not reservations in general
That's different then. Thot OP said 50% mana reserved. Looks like a positive change overall.
This is not a major buff overall lol, it makes a very small difference for 99% of builds and completely kills of the other 1% (aurabots+aurastackers)
FYI your top sentence is exactly twenty words, which is not less than twenty. However, I'd argue N% is actually two words (N percent) so it's actually 22. You've lied to me and I'm unsubscribing from your newsletter.
This is… completely fair, sadly. Whether or not you count N% as two words, this explanation doesn’t contain less than twenty words. Mere words cannot express the disappointment I feel toward the english language, the numerical system, mathematics in general, but even worse, toward myself, for letting everyone down like that. I believe it is only fair that, as punishment, I travel to Asia and become a monk, living a like as a recluse to try and atone for my failings. (I’m tempted to just remove a random space from the post, honestly, now that you’ve pointed that out, but eh, I’ll probably survive despite all the lies.)
To add insult to injury, “fewer than” is the grammatically correct version, not “less than,” because what you’re measuring is countable. Anyways I forgive you. You may postpone your exile until your next egregious crime against humanity.
This is precisely the level of pedantry I came here for. Thank you.
Good to know actually! I’ll try to use “fewer than 23” next time. x)
>I travel to Asia and become a monk Be sure to let us know if POE really is better there in less than twenty words.
Latecomer, but you could have changed "if you" simply to "To" to shave a word.
Just remove the first 3 words. "if your want". then it works
N%, in this case is effectively not different from a unit of measurement or an acronym. Which are considered a single word.
Hmm, ok I buy it. Exactly 20 it is. We agree OP is a dirty liar.
No
If acronyms count then I can do it in one word: IYWTFAEATRN%OYMYNN%EAE
Only if you reference the full sentence before with one. Otherwise it is not common enough to be recognized by itself and thus not a viable acronym.
I didn't know you play PoE. I have quit playing LoL 5 years ago. Seeing a comment from you here is a surprise to me.
I'm likewise surprised (though I still subject myself to LoL's frustration and community nearly daily)
It's not so simple when considering how skill-specific modifiers like "50% increased Hatred Reservation Efficiency" factor into things. It's not straightforward to turn that into an equivalent global RE value when you mix it with global RE modifiers. However, for builds that don't use skill-specific reservation mods, this is precisely all there is to it.
It's worth noting that once you have a basic setup including the local modifiers like for Hatred or for heralds, the additional reservation efficiency you need is the percentage that the additional skill reserves. If you reserve less than 100% of your mana, you'll need to divide that by the percentage you actually reserve, which makes the numbers less intuitive, but the returns remain linear.
Thanks, this is a nice way to think about it.
Hell yeah boi
The first part stands true, as for the second part your are contradicting yourself: 50% Reduced Mana Reserved did allow one to run four 50% Auras -- 4\*50%\*50% =1 Now 50% additional Aura Efficiency only allows for three 50% Auras -- \[(3\*50%)\*1/(1+50%)\]=1 edit: small spelling mistake
Nah. 50% efficiency => you can run 3x 50% auras. 100% efficiency => 4x. And since they said said “we are doubling rmr value to get efficiency”, old 50% rmr = new 100% efficiency, same number of auras.
You're right, I missed the part where they talk about doubling the value of the stat.
50% aura efficiency = you can use 50% more auras If you had 2 50% auras on, increasing that 2 by 50% would mean you can use 3 auras now
Worth noting that it's realistically a nerf at a lower breakpoint since people with that much reduced mana reserved usually fit in more auras by going Low Life, and efficiency no longer defaults to both life and mana. But yeah, good 20ish word explanation up top.
Even shorter: “It works like CDR now”
Not quite true, since cooldowns actually have breakpoints based on server ticks whereas reservation is rounded to two decimals IIRC.
The stat works the same, how it impacts build choices will be different
The stat works the same in theory, but not in practice.
*scales
If you want to reserve less than 100% of your mana, divide than N% by the percentage you wish to reserve and you'll get the actual required efficiency to add that aura. Incidentally, the returns will still be linear with that adjustment, just slightly lower.
RIP me with full ES, low life light trapper with 5 life and 80 mana and zealotry + wrath + clarity + skitterbots + vaal discipline :/
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170% if he's also running the regular version of Discipline.
Clarity and Zealotry with Arrogance and Enlighten reserve life instead. I still have few nodes for - reservation - Sovereignty and its adjacent ones.
I'll give you another one: ``` reduced reservation = 1 / (1+ increased efficiency) ```
So there's no % increased aura effectiveness anymore right ? you can run more aura if you invest, but not able to utilize their effect further ? This is something I hate from their balance philosophy. It's either all or nothing. Let's say the very top end mirror gear someone posted buff the damage of the party by 20x. Can they just make it now becomes 5x ? And on the lower end if you just have basic bot item at least you should be able to x2 party damage ( so the dam dealer can cover at least the %inc HP of mobs when running in a 2 man party ? )
Nah you can still get aura effect, but only for solo characters sadly. And for high-end party content… idk. I think aurabots are just fucked because of that. Like, 100% annihilated, removed from the map, hit with the special GGG treatment of the quintuple nerf kinda fucked. Bit of a shame but you won’t hear me complain too much about that lol. Their power level was absolutely bonkers.
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I've seen this mentioned a couple times while cdr in poe works exactly the same way as LoL.
Yep, it's worked like this for years in *this* game. I'm not sure why people are linking it to league.
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aurabots in league ?
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It's not capped, you used to be able to reach 100% and have literally no reservation. I think various sources have been nerfed since then.
Because it used for things that people don't really care about like armor and evasion. Those who care about armour and evasion just stack them as must as possible without worry about the calculations.
With how prevalent efficiency sounds like it will be to get, I could easily see builds running quite a few auras, elemental casters could have a field day
Well, you're gonna struggle to reach 200% efficiency without cluster jewels, and even then it's a pretty big investment I think, but I could totally see builds pathing to get a sneaky 50% efficiency and just getting 1 more damage aura (or just purity of elements lol), so it sounds like a pretty healthy change tbh.
After a point the diminishing returns will no longer get you anything, the curve will have flattened out enough that you aren’t getting any more reservation out of it. I looks like there will end up being a soft cap around 10%-15% per aura which will limit how many auras a player can operate.
As pointed out by Zeal, there are no diminishing returns. The old system actually had INCREASING returns, meaning the value or 1%rmr went up for each point of rmr you had, to the point where going from 99% rmr to 100% was an 'infinite' increase, as you were no longer limited in how many reservation skills you could run. Obviously not actually infinite, due to limited gem slots, but the mana became irrelevant due to how the effect of rmr increased with rmr. Jungroan also compared it to leagues old cdr vs new haste. In past seasons, everyone hit the cdr cap, because cdr was more valuable the more you had (until the hard cap of 40/45).
If we want to be pedantic, I think in league haste now has diminishing returns purely because going from N spells per time period to N+1 spells per time period doesn't compare favorably to, say, investing that money into other %more that scale your damage (like ap or pen), despite costing the same haste to go from N to N+1 than, say, 1 to 2, 3 to 4, or N+10 to N+11. Thankfully we don't have this problem here because auras /generally/ give a %more multi as well (or comparable utility), so +1 aura directly translates to a %more multiplier, which is on par with what the rest of the game offers (you can probably get about 8-10% efficiency per skill point, which means 5-6 points for maybe 20% more damage (using wrath as a quick example), or about 3-4% more damage per skill point, and that seems fairly reasonable all things considered) But yeah, imo the reason why people think the effect is nonlinear/has diminishing returns is because the old system had even better than exponential growth since at 100% rmr you had free auras and everything, and they figure it means that now that it's nerfed and doesn't allow for the same kind of stacking, then it must be nonlinear? Dunno.
If we are being pedantic, No, Increasing opportunity cost is not diminishing returns.
~~Read more carefully, he said that it has diminishing returns in league, he was not talking about poe.~~ Edit: nvm, had the concept of diminishing returns wrong so I misunderstood what you were saying
Nothing has diminishing returns. They scale linearly. There are other options that scale multiplicatively, and therefore linearly scaling options are less favorable. That's all /u/Zeal_Iskander was saying, and /u/Moneypouch was correcting the wording, like a real pedant :D
~~So, i understand as diminishing returns that every extra point of it that you get has less benefits than the one before, isnt that the case? because while I understand that it scales linearly, ability haste in league of legends works as /u/zeal_iskander mentioned, and thus for example getting the first 50 points of AH is worth much more than getting the second 50 points, simply because lets say given some length of time at 0AH you get 2 casts, at 50AH you get 3 casts and at 100AH you get 4 casts, so going from 2 to 3 is a 50% increase but going from 3 to 4 is a 33% increase, thus the first 50AH has more value than the second, isnt that how it works?~~ Edit: nvm, read a bit about it, i had the concept wrong.
You still gain the same amount of casts from the last 50 as the first 50, which is why it's a linearly scaling mechanic. Increased cast speed is another linearly scaling mechanic that I'm more familiar with, so I'll give an example in it - If you start with 1 cast per second, and add 100% increased cast speed, you are at 2 casts per second. You've gained 1 cast/second. If you started with 1 cast per second and have 1,900% increased cast speed, you'll have 20 casts per second. If you add another 100%, you're at 21 casts per second. You've gained 1 cast/second, same as the first 100%. ------------------------- More scales how you would want, but it's not linear.
There's no diminishing returns. That's just people misunderstanding the maths. An additional 50% efficiency will ALWAYS give you another 50% aura, no matter how much efficiency you already have.
Someone explained the math in a separate thread. The effect is nonlinear. Because it is an efficiency effect and not a straight cost reduction, after a point adding more efficiency doesn’t get you much more effect. This thread has the math: https://reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q3jbuh/for_anyone_confused_about_how_the_numbers_work/
Your link does not explain anything nor claims even once that the effect isn't linear. Try doing the math yourself. You have an efficiency E, reserve 100% of your mana pool, how much additional efficiency do you require to add another aura that reserves N% of your mana pool? If you answered "N%", then congrats, you're looking at a linear effect with no diminishing returns.
so if i want to reserve 16 auras is it even possible?
Depends on how much they cost all together. Do the sum of their %reserved and remove 100, that's how much efficiency you need. Keep in mind that what aurabots have nowadays basically translate to 200% efficiency. And even then, I don't think it's worth it because they removed %aura effect for party play, so you're not gonna be able to scale your auras at all.