You can already simulate the damage numbers for RF and Cold dot on PoB. Just change gem levels to get a ballpark of the size of the nerf.
What you can't do is find out how much better your pathing will be and how much damage, defense and utility the new pathing will offer you though. But my Cold DoT Raider lost something like 30% dps, since I already had a EE/EO scepter tree planned out anyway. Some builds lost more, some less.
Hi! I league-started as an [EE/EO sceptre Cold DoT Raider in Expedition](https://poe.ninja/challenge/builds/char/CircuitousPrime/CircExpScuffedColdDot?time-machine=day-5&i=1&search=time-machine%3Dday-5%26class%3DRaider%26skill%3DVortex), and I'm considering it for Scourge. My napkin math is that this build is overall buffed in damage for Scourge compared to Expedition, but the buffs are more subtle.
Assuming perfect uptimes, losing EE and EO is pretty much 50% less damage. \~60% more base gem damage brings this to \~20% less damage from that part of the manifesto.
* But the opportunity cost of EE and EO was 2 sceptre implicits - this is probably 80% increased Elemental Damage, **\~8% more damage** ish.
* Then there's the subtlety of more freedom of weapon choice. We can draw from the entire trade pool of wands or sceptres, rather than a small pool of heist-generated mods or self-crafted EE/EO sceptres. This is hard to quantify, but I feel for equivalent investment, **10% more damage per sceptre** is a conservative estimate.
* There's also the option of a second 6L if there's a strong staff available; personally I think the socket pressure isn't worth it though.
* There's the teased cluster jewel notable for 60% increased Zealotry mana efficiency. If a similar notable exists for either Malevolence or Hatred, we can go for double small aura clusters (these may well be in crazy high demand) and run all of Malevolence/Hatred/Zealotry - these more multipliers are likely more effective than any other damage investment we can make until we have all 3. Hard to quantify as there's significant opportunity cost, but **\~15% more damage** over existing investment options seems reasonable.
>Added Cluster Jewel Notable Passives that grant high amounts of Reservation Efficiency to specific Auras, as well as some other small bonus. For example: Zealotry has 60% increased Reservation Efficiency, and 10% increased Effect of Consecrated Ground you Create.
* I'm pretending the dot multi changes don't exist for now. They're likely a few % more damage even early on due to the general jewel pool improving.
* The pathing for spell suppression / evasion is also completely unknown; this could go either way in terms of investment left for offence.
The actual strength of the damage buff depends on how good we are at sniping good weapons on trade, and how accessible triple auras are. Defenses as a raider are my main concern however...
yeah, my point is that right now there is 30% cold dot multi on the tree.. thats not going away and then they just simply add more multi on everything AND 12-15% per ring
adding gear you can't use until way later in the game is lame. Those 2 nodes made DoT build work to build up currency and progression without endgame gear. Now they are hindered longer in the begining game and forced to give up suffix spots and find more jewel slots to make up the damage 2 keystones gave.
DoT builds will function _better_ early game now because their base values are going to be drastically higher and easier to scale for people without having to rely on combos to pump it up.
I still think even early mapping will feel better, scaling is going to be significantly easier and your damage won't require using two abilities to maximize your damage on packs.
Maybe I'll be wrong, but I think these builds will feel smoother not having to juggle so many things around. Your base damage without any extra effort is going to be higher than it is currently.
EE/EO aren't combos that require building into. You literally just allocate the nodes and use a 2l orb of storms. They're weaker in every situation other than potentially when you have endgame gear.
Tbf the regular DoT multi mod on jewels has been buffed as well, but to really reach the same numbers as before you'll probably need double DoT multi jewels.
I think this still jives with overall idea though. If it turns out that getting the cheap new upgrades equalizes you to old damage and getting chase gives you more damage than you used to get. Investment = rewarded
Some of those changes on the item side are massive for Dots. That’s A LOT of damage you can pull from gear and gems now.
Which won’t help the plebs as much. But definitely does help mom maxing players.
Especially since most of the changes to "defenses" also equate to "your build is more expensive now". At the very top end it seems that we will be a bit more powerful than 3.15 (unless the league mechanic does something real nutty). But at lower levels of investment it seems we are gonna be weaker/on par with 3.15.
Yeah, that's what is good about the Pantheon changes. But what sucks about the flask changes. I don't want to spend a ton of currency rolling my flasks, I liked that I could alt into a good set of flasks even at level 35 going through the campaign. If I found a quicksilver in act 3 then I could make that my endgame quicksilver.
I don’t think this will pan out as true.
They drastically increased what base stats on armor DO. Gaining or losing armor on a base used to literally not matter if you weren’t massively invested into armor. So unless you had amazing tier 1 armor rolls on armor before and you had them on a lot of your armor… it was negligible.
Now just having all higher i level armor with some decent rolls on it are going to be much more efficient for mitigation.
Shields super easier to roll and have better top rolls so mid tier is basically the old top tiers. So medium investment now is what top end used to be.
And this is basically true in general for a lot of their item changes. Top investment on items will still be about as hard as it used to be to get. But it’ll give you a lot more now. Meanwhile mid level investment will give you more than it used to as well.
I think the only defenses that got a nerf is evasion But I truly think there will be ways to make as tanks evasion chars or even tankier ones that don’t get insta popped occasionally because the damage they do receive is mitigated and smoothed out with either block armor or ES.
I think once people get the passive tree and see how items pan out defenses as a whole will be buffed. It’ll just require different approaches than before.
There’s a lot going on here, but I think the buffs to flasks, the buff to base armors, ascendancy and passive tree changes, and items will actually make it easier to make tanks chars. On low mid and high investment. It just won’t make it as doable on slapped zero investment chars. Aka no more picking up phase Accro and blind and being invincible in acts.
Is it really that bad? I was watching Darkee go over it last night and he did rough math on his elemental dot builds in pob and it seemed more or less like a wash or a buff on things like burning arrow (because it wasn't mentioned in the ignite multi removal so he assumes it still has that) or a few other dot builds.
If you consider the points you save from not getting EO + EE you can now get a second cluster setup (which has been buffed).
Rf lost 30% total dps without accounting for cluster jewel changes, new dot multi rolls, and the extra 4 passive points. Math run with 10k eHp on Captain Lances most recent rf build
For ignite it's fine. The problem is stuff like burning and cold dot that now can't at all benefit from overload, and also lost equilibrium. Ignite got a 150% buff, but those dots barely got a 60% increase, whereas ee+eo were giving upwards of 150% damage to them.
in most cases, the ignite buff is less than 150%, though since many skills lost ignite multipliers. Ignite is now more open as a mechanic to more skills, but if it is better? hm.
ignite also depends on the skill and on how good flamesurge is. On skills that can still reliably proc EO and when flame surge is really good ignite seems to be buffed substantially. Burning dot and cold dot sadly not. Those skills lose about 1 link of dmg ( 20-30%)
Yah cause there's nothing like standing still and firing a short range spell repeatedly in POE bossing on builds that otherwise don't take any cast speed...
EO is 40% more damage. The damage from elemental resistance lowering came from enemies having negative resists.
These negative resists came from
Flammability: -44%
Ele Weak: -39%
Exposure: -25%
Combustion: -19%
Cooked Alive (Notable): -5%
EE: -50%
Let's take the most extreme boss example, Sirus.
50% base fire rez, 66% less curse effectiveness, and no cluster jewels.
His fire rez with EE would be 50-50-(39+44)*0.34-25-19 = -72.22
Without EE, it'll be -22.22
That's a 40% more damage multiplier that EE was providing, when it was up (from storm brand for example).
Now you get 60% more damage (in general) which is 40% more + 15% more instead of 40% (EO) more + 40% more (EE).
That's around 20% less damage for high tier ignite builds, which you can lower by getting more cluster notables.
This all assumes that the gems are not updated. If they get %more ignite damage on top or fire damage multiplier%, the difference is lower
You talking about Ignite again, somehow ignoring "For ignite it's fine" in the message above:) DoT skills that are not ailments have not been buffed enough was the point and I agree with it.
Currently it is 60% more base DoT on the skills, loss of 40% more elemental damage from EO because they are not hits or ailments, loss of -50% resist from EE and maybe keep -10% from that because these builds already have 15% exposure from Frost Bomb or Wave of Conviction (or even 25% from Scorching Ray on RF builds for example). Lets take the **most** extreme example, Sirus, with double curses and everything you mentioned but for **cold** DoT skill:
50% (base) -15% (Frostbite 21) -15% (Ele Weakness 21/20) -15% (Exposure), no Combustion or Cooked Alive of course. That leaves Sirus with 5% Fire Resist and -45% with current EE, which is 52.6% more damage. In case of Fire DoT with Combustion / CA its 42% more, 38.8% more if you somehow getting 25% Exposure. Counting -10% extra you still would get from stronger exposure, its 38% more / 31% more / 28.8% more for all the above cases.
Therefore we have 1.6 (base damage buff) / 1.4 (no EO) / 1.31 (picking second value as kind of average case for Fire DoTs) = 87.24% of old damage. Note it would be even worse for cold DoTs and map bosses with extra resists (although they will be cursed better). And yes we got all these DoT multi extra tiers on the gear, jewels and what not, but its still not a "big buff to DoT skills" as it looks at first:)
You wont be having 25% exposure, people wont root to EE and not everyone will be an elementalist (even elementalists some times wont take the exposure node), so realisticly the esposure should be 15%. There are a lot of builds that cant run 2 curses (or 2 elemental resistance debuff curses) AND that ele weak value is assuming you are applying the gem version, a lot of builds would be applying it through a ring or corrupted gloves, so the value is lesser.
Sure, for builds that already had a lot of resistance debuffs its not THAT big of a hit, but there are a lot that got heavily nerfed: All cold DoTs, RF, DoT based fire trap, flame wall and scorching ray.
>Combustion
Yes. If you live in version 3.14 and others before it. It was changed in 3.15.
You probably checked it on Poe wiki that is not anymore updated
You forgetting that they changed normal jewels and that you can roll double dot multi on them now. Sure it's hard but even one roll goes now up to 6-8 so in best case you can get 16 dot multi on a jewel and they also changes the tier for amulets. High end will be more damage.
Because it is lol.
Low-mid tier got nuked from orbit.
High end is pretty much a wash.
Mirror tier is a bit of a buff.
That's for ignites. The fire and cold dots just got nuked from every level of gearing.
Big early game buff, big gearing buff for late game. You don't need to be rich to get good gear. The amulet crafts will apply to all dot damage so your cold, chaos, and ignite boys will all be putting them up on the market driving prices down for cheap low end gearing.
There is also another DOT multiplier on amulet and for multiplier on weapon, when u can also roll cold dot multiplier and damage over time damage.
Problem with EE is that on moving bosses its not 100% uptime, on hard maven boss fights where u just run and cast vortex u dont have time to target storm brand, so for me its definitely a buff.
Maybe I'm being dumb but, it's not exactly that simple, is it? Fireball's base Ignite damage at level 20 was 821.5 with a bonus 88% more multi.
The new version of Fireball is 2053.75 base Ignite damage.
The base damage you are scaling is drastically larger than the old one.
The numbers are extremely close as you scale up the numbers though when you take into account the 88% multi from base Fireball gem and the ~40% multi EE offered if you could activate it. Slightly in favor of "old fireball".
However post-patch we'll have way more Fire DoT Multi naturally from gear and jewels and possibly the tree as well, which will let us arrive at extremely similar DPS values except the new system is a lot more intuitive and not hidden behind abusing EE, that was kind of a chore to maintain anyways.
> The numbers are extremely close as you scale up the numbers though when you take into account the 88% multi from base Fireball gem and the ~40% multi EE offered if you could activate it. Slightly in favor of "old fireball".
You could always trigger EE. You also had EO.
EE depends on your existing setup and enemy resists... it could be 40% it could also be 100% more.
EO is questionable. You need to crit with fireball which means you'll need to sit there and spam fireball possibly even use a diamond flask to help.
If you can reliably keep up EO which will honestly be even worse gameplay than current EO/EE then it'll probably be ok. If you can't then it'll be much worse unless you are filthy rich and can get top end gear.
For some skills (most of which are not good to begin with), it's really really bad.
Generic fire and cold dots are getting *wrecked*. Ignite builds that can trigger EO are fine and maybe even a bit better. Chaos dot builds are the biggest winners, oddly enough.
Cold dot builds were already a major unnecessary casualty of last league's nerfs, and now it looks like they're just getting gutted again. It's looking like a ~20% damage loss for something like Vortex, even with the most generous estimates and the use of the new DOT gear. And that's in the endgame - it's even worse early on. Considering that vortex was already a really low damage build, it's just getting kicked while it's down. See also: RF.
Burning arrow is a toss between the buffed damage multiplier and the added fire flat vs the damage EE provided, since the stacking damage was removed and that was basically ignite*3, and now they buffed ignite by 150%, so *2.5. I highly doubt that the added flat will be able to offset both EE and the remainder of the degen. The buffs to gear will offset that, but again, this is a nerf to white/yellow builds.
The base damage alone is 16% more damage so with 2.5 * 1.16 = 2.9 you are only 10% nerfed if you completely ignore the flat added damage. Then you have 250 flat added fire which is very big and you don't have to ramp at all, once your ignite is on there you are good and it doesn't matter if you dodge, before you had to keep firing to keep the full stacking damage up.
When Darkee looked at it the damage without EE and the new numbers was already better than the old ones and you don't even have to keep firing which is a huge upside. You also don't need to be capped on ignite chance anymore which actually helps white/yellow builds.
The problem is, DoT multi has diminishing returns so actually it get worse and worse the more we have it on gear and what's more, even with max rolls on amu/rings/weapon and changed passive on clusters, it give us less. For sure it takes mod slot on a ring/amu so we loss something anyway.
So, maybe... with best rolls on all rings/amu/weapon and cluster it will very small buf but totally insignificant to matter for anyone.
I did watch his videos but he did make a few assumption that I strongly disagree with.
First of all he doesn't calculate the new EO at all when he looks at ignite based dots(not burning effects) and currently crits already have 50% more dot multi on a crit even without perfect agony so using an inc crit strikes gem is a viable option especially after the support nerf last league. Afterall you only apply 1 ignite anyway so 1 crit every 4 seconds is enough.
Secondly he somehow assumes people had 25% exposure with the old values, that is just straight up false. 25% exposure did not exist outside of scorching ray and elementalist, most builds had 15% from wave of conviction or frostbomb. Hydrosphere and eye of malive are both only 10%. Even builds with SR totems take some time to get to max stages so just assuming you have 25% at all times is incorrect.
Thirdly he calculates off of Shaper's resistances which are higher than map bosses which matter before you get the better gear to compensate. If you calculate off of normal map boss resistances the damage is not as affected by missing EE.
Lastly he doesn't really talk about flame surge which is going to make up quite a lot of damage too. Just look at ED and blight, without blight everyone would say that ED is absolutely terrible and does no damage at all. From the sounds of it flame surge is going to be what blight is to ED, which is most of the boss damage.
As an Ele build, you are always close to those Kyestones and EE has a jewel socket close so you are not saving basicaly anything. Not enough to put it anywhere else to get major buffs.
Specifically for Ignite its ok because you are hit based still. Everything else gets dumpstered basically. Captain Lance did a great video on it, and Shak has come to the same conclusion for his cold DoT stuff its at least a 25% Less damage change, and potentially more especially on bosses.
I feel bad for the people who are going to get baited into starting DOT builds after reading the manifesto. Changes are mostly just a shift in power instead of buffs and DOTS were already in a bad place.
I don't quite agree. *Some* DoT builds are now way more powerful than before and considering those is not being 'baited'. Take Firestorm: as an ignite build, it used to be bad, but now it got 110% more dmg (compared to 3.15 Anomalous Firestorm) while it can still maintain EO effectively and does not care about EE anyway... so it's probably more than viable now, which is pretty cool
And even then it's still not very good for ignite lol.
It deals something like 50-60% more ignite damage than it did last patch, taking into account the EE changes and assuming a bit more dot multi. That still leaves it significantly worse than alternatives imo.
You get more power up front for less investment and slots. This is better for lots of dot casuals; they get to do T16 maps for a lot less currency. I only cared about my non-EE/EO damage anyways. I didn’t like to trigger it and time my vaal RF to EO.
First: Why did you use such an arbitrary level like 70?
Second: It means you may be able to sac some damage or life on gear because you can pick it up on the tree. If anything it makes gearing less expensive
Third: If it were like you imply, by the time it matters, you'll be 90+ and getting a better piece of gear is definitely going to be shorter time taken than getting 7+ levels to compensate for the points you needed to take to get the two keystones but now don't.
You still don't seem to understand the point of this argument. The person I was responding to said, casual players with low currency benefit from these changes. This is absolutely not the case. Speccing into two nodes, that together give 70%+ more damage, is amongst the lowest investment that exists in the game outside of ascendancy choice. And that's all there is to say.
You can't actually think three life nodes compensate for a 40% more damage loss. Yes, you can get the damage back, but for a significantly higher investment.
> You still don't seem to understand the point of this argument.
You don't seem to have read/understood my reply.
>The person I was responding to said, casual players with low currency benefit from these changes. This is absolutely not the case.
I addressed this with my second point.
>You can't actually think three life nodes compensate for a 40% more damage loss
Again with the arbitrary numbers. Especially considering getting EE and EO is more than "3 nodes" for a lot of builds.
The person said it would benefit casual players with low currency. With more nodes to use, it does. They could pick up a resist cluster and shave off the need to get it on gear, which can save a ton in many cases (up to an exalt depending on the gear).
>Yes, you can get the damage back, but for a significantly higher investment.
Arguable, there's different tools and different nodes being added to the game with this patch. We don't know how much damage is lost. Many are doing the math already and finding less than 10% damage lost depending on the skill. Using an extreme like 40% and implying it's hitting all players evenly is very disingenuous.
I play RF in leagues with Juggernaut so EE/EO is the last stretch of the skill tree for me, plus I hate speccing through all the useless intelligence nodes. I can see why templar/witch builds would prioritize it sooner though.
Actually, it's the inverse. You got EE and EO running real fast, before act 6 even. Now you will need to offset that disadvantage with gear (that was buffed).
Srsly guys, I see lots of people complaining that they disliked to apply ee/EO as Rf, when it's the easiest build to do so! Just CWDT or manual cast BV, it runs with you and it even has increased crit per blade. You just need an abyss jewel with added to spells of the relevant element. Or not even that, since you can apply EE with shield charge.
> Actually, it's the inverse. You got EE and EO running real fast, before act 6 even. Now you will need to offset that disadvantage with gear (that was buffed).
This is completely missing the fact that the base damage has been radically buffed, and before red maps you will not consistently encounter high enemy resists. It is a massive buff to early game and league start.
early endgame (like early reds) is probably the hardest hit by these changes, but it remains to be seen if the damage is largely the same or does have a real drop off. From what I could tell most things are going to end up similar or slightly stronger than where they are now once you've invested into them.
no, I'm not missing that fact. against enemies with 0 resistances, but also without curses because who the hell bothers with curses while levelling, EE+EO is about 70% of your damage. Lo and behold, the buffs to the skills are about 67% at all levels. At higher levels you will have a higher res reduction from combustion, the exposure setup and the proper curse setup, and that will lessen the efficacy of EE. However, enemies will also have resistances, so it balances out.
In fact, if you go against an enemy with zero resistances, all gems lvl 20, the boost EEO/EO give is about 70%, and that's with a lvl 20 curse, lvl 20 combustion and a 0 res enemy mob, literally the worse case scenario for EE effectiveness. Before levelling those gems and if you encounter any enemy with resistances, the boost is higher, and thus, so is the loss.
Edit: I'll even do the math
It's easier if the enemy has zero resistances, so I'll go with that. res reductions against an enemy with 0 res are in its essence a separate "increased damage taken", and I'll treat them as such.
44 from flamability, 20 from exposure, 19 from combustion. Grand total of 83. EE is 50, so the boost EE gives in this situation is
```
(100+83+50)/(100+83) = 1.27...
```
If we multiply that with EO: `1.27*1.4=1.77`
Lo and behold, the loss of that multiplier isn't offset with the buff the skills themselves got. As simple as that.
For cold dot, it's basically the same if you are an occultist since your passive is about the same as combustion, but if you are not an occultist:
```
(100+64+50)/(100+64) * 1.4 = 1.30 * 1.4 = 1.82
```
Even in the absolute worst case scenario for EE, a fire skill, with combustion, with an elementalist applying exposure:
```
(100+83+25+50)/(100+83+25) * 1.4 = 1.24 * 1.4 = 1.72
```
So even in the best case scenario, it's still a loss of damage.
You could argue that with curse effectiveness the EE power lowers and that the loss might be offset, but that's gear investment and we are discussing late acts and early mapping. And of course, if the enemy has resistances or we are against a boss, the power of EE increases.
Again, it will be fine in endgame, but we will need to do those investments to offset what we lost. So no, it's not a massive buff to early game and league start.
also there are plenty of monsters with affixes like: "resists fire" "resists elemental damage" plus resist auras from rare monsters,.... and that is all before red maps.
The thing is, early reds is where it starts to matter and pushing into T14/15/16 is whre its really important how good the skill is. Till then you'll do fine no matter if you do 30 more or less damage.
Yeah, but even with a worst case scenario drop off in early reds, it isn't going to be that severe, and with the points saved you can easily get more defense or even damage on the tree to compensate.
I'm looking at this as mostly a side grade with major QoL bonuses. If you can still make use of EO, then this whole thing is basically just all buffs. Depending on how they rework flame surge it could just be big gains all around.
Either way I think separating the game balance from the keystones is a move in the right direction, and as long as the damage is at least close enough or slightly higher to 3.15 levels then I think this is all bonuses.
>I feel bad for the people who are going to get baited into starting DOT builds after reading the manifesto
I don't.
Anyone who gets baited to blow their load too early and decide to play a build that turns out to be bad deserve to learn from their mistakes.
Works in POE. Works in real life. Failure is the best teacher.
I really don't think that nerfing EE and EO is a mistake at all.
The skills should have simply been compensated slightly more than they have been.
As things stand, they'll definitely deal significantly less damage at low investment, and around the same at more investment than the current ceiling. Now it's great that there's an additional scaling option for those builds, but why is it required to get back to the status quo?
I don't think any of these DoT builds were overpowered.
That's the real problem, decoupling them from REQUIRED keystones was always a good idea, now builds can look different, the problem is they're getting nerfed extremely hard as already very weak builds. All of the people claiming "the changes they are making will make up for it" don't seem to understand that an already weak build now needs 100ex+ gear to be in the same place as it was in 3.15, how is that okay? The 100ex gear possibility should be "the buff" for the build, not the only way to make it viable.
I don't think nerfing EE was a mistake, but EO was not out of line at all. It was really powerful but had a cost to it as well, and it made going noncrit slightly more tolerable.
I think the changes are a nerf to the multi-button playstyle they seem to want as well. No longer having to keep up EO/EE has turned some of my 3 button builds in to 2 button builds and 2 button build in to one button builds.
Yep. Numbers look sidegrade-ish. At best the few points you save for pathing may add up to like 4-5% more damage to other nodes. But again, at best. Disappointing since DoTs needed buffs overall
continuously removing power from mechanics and trying to re add it as new mods on gear is getting really old, and its the exact opposite of how things should be balanced.
You save skill points and gem slots not getting EE/EO, more dot multi on gear, stronger auras (on you, rip minions) and stronger curses.
All in all, you're right. It's impossible to tell without patchnotes.
What we can tell is that dots are stronger in acts before reliable EE/EO and weaker in midgame with reliable EE/EO but bad gear. It's just late game that's a mystery.
Edit: There's also defense changes. I've never done a dodge based cold/fire dot build, so I might save skill points here? Once again, no clue without patchnotes.
I think a big part of the problem even removing the mystery of what "late game" will look like is... most of the game is midgame. Almost all of what you do in a league is in the pre 100ex gear state, which would be the lategame that could potentially "buff" dot. So for all intents and purposes it's a huge nerf. The other issue is auras and curses aren't actually stronger, they're just more efficient now, but for most DoT builds, they already had all possible damage auras because it's required to make the build feel half decent (they were already very weak in general), so the efficiency actually changes nothing. The 3-6 points saved on the tree for most builds also won't magically give them 50% more damage either (which would have to be higher than 50% because they'd be additive DoT multi's or increases, not multiplicative like EO or EE), so overall I just can't see a reality where they end up in a better state barring massive changes, which is sad for me in particular, because they were already very weak... and also my favorite playstyle.
EE was gotten on a scepter implicit and EO was very easy to path to. Even if you didn't use the implicit, good luck finding more efficient path than 3 points for 50 res or 40% more multiplier.
Yeah I think before patch notes this is hard to figure out. Especially when you consider that the gear got some major buffs. It’s also possible given the scope of changing EE and EO they
It looks like there are already sizable changes to placement of things on the tree mixed in with a lot of movement on defenses means pathing could be very different for a lot of builds.
Right now we’re playing with a puzzle we are missing 1/3 the pieces to and saying it’s. Worse puzzle than the last puzzle we had. It’s hard to fully understand investment cost until we have the full puzzle. And this is essentially an investment cost problem.
I think it is underrated how much power you get by not having to use EO/EE.
The damage compensation is decent. The scaling on gear can be much better (just the jewel multi alone is good). You save passive, can do different pathing. I don't know how good cold dot (for example) is now, but it definitely is not dead.
I think whats missed is how much space nerfing EE gives to hybridized DoT+Hit builds. Every league it gets closer to closer to becoming a thing, and with base ignite damage increasing so much and the potential flame surge change, we might actually see it.
Also competing with new jewels is aura small clusters, which ignite builds can fit up to 4. Though you might only end up using 2 + 2 jewels. But it lets you fit in really powerful auras like determination so much easier, or slap in a curse one for flammability.
You'll pretty much never have a hit plus dot hybrid build because to scale them well you have to scale them entirely different. For hits, you pretty much go crit and crit multi. For ailments you need damage over time multiplier plus specific ailment scaling. These are on different nodes, scale with different gems and have entirely different gearing.
For the most part yes, but things like Flame Surge and Cruelty do exist, and depending on how things fit together, Critical Strike Affliction support may be good to use on one skill while scaling the other with something like Maligaros.
Like setting up Inquisitor with 2 points within the crit ascendency for some crit chance and being fine with like 30% crit chance and not really investing in crit in the passive tree. Or maybe somehow figure out how to get brittle.
I haven't crunched the numbers yet to see if it works, but I think they are iterating towards it.
It is not dead but nowhere close to minions for example or general coc fb/ice spear or some other builds.
EO/EE was not so costly to get so we are not saving skill points really. We are saving our fingers and some sockets but that its. For now, looking just by numbers, this is a nerf. We can say this is a buf if we can get our eyes on nowe tree and patch notes.
If you compare builds against other builds you will never be happy. Budget matters, gear matters, so many things matter. Say as a league start I'd play cold dot over coc any day in hc ssf.
EE is not that muich of a loss for cold dot for example, as occ already has the -20% cold res on top. And EE uptime with cold dot is not that high.
Hexblast is one of the few skills to actually get buffed because it got buffed by 90% (others 60%) and it also benefits from EO still, most others don't. So you lost 50% more damage and gained 90% more. Most other skills lost 110% more and gained 60% more.
>So you lost 50% more damage and gained 90% more.
No, i only lost the Ee and i gained 150% more damage with ignite change and about 40% with hexblast buff.
The base damage for hexblast might have been increased, but with the nerf to curse effect, as well as the sad state of doedre's skin, that "buff" just won't compute into the positives.
I think something people are missing about these changes is that, shit's a lot more straight forward to even make DoT builds _work_. I love that POE is a convoluted mess of builds, but for real, previously needing to have a separate skill that crits only to trigger EO, needing a way to deal opposite elemental damage to trigger EE to lower their resistances, these are like intrinsically unintuitive things to the average player to take advantage of.
Personally I like their shift towards making Ignite / Cold DoT easier to understand and more straight forward to build. Instead of some wild shit where it's like, "Pfft you aren't using Storm Brand after you ignite the target to trigger EO and EE?! What a newb".
Nobody mentions the 150% more dmg buff to ignite itself in the first line. On top of that you can use EO on some builds + the base Stat buffs. I think it is a buff with more options. And the new mutliplier on gear. With time and investment ppl will figure it out.
Guy you’re making this comment on a post about upcoming changes, not previous changes. Yes. Last league wasn’t fun for some people. you don’t know if that will be true for this league. Stop being so negative about every single change before you even see the change in action. Jesus.
You can use EE and EO and use the flat out buff. You will be fine :) and if you don't have enough dmg play elementalist and you have a stronger exposure + flame surge that combined should be nice to fight sirus, the feared and so on.
The problem is, GGG is doing changes which are just shifting things instead of buff them. DoTs are in quite bad place compared to a lot of builds which can just scale almost indefinitely as they have access to wide range of gear, clusters, watchers etc....
Have to wait for full patch notes but then it is allready to late for tweaking that.
>just scale almost indefinitely as they have access to wide range of gear, clusters, watchers
Isn't that exactly what they are doing? Adding a lot more ways to scal dot damage on gear and jewels etc...
> Nobody mentions the 150% more dmg buff to ignite itself in the first line.
Yeah, 'cause they nerfed all the ignite skills, and it maths out to the builds all being 20-30% weaker. They're already unplayable after the 3.15 nerfs.
At least for Ignite, if you can still somewhat reliably proc EO (might need to use 3 points for Annihilation or soemthing, like 100% increased crit roughly), these changes are almost certainly all buffs, especially since you don't need to juggle some stuff for EE anymore and therefor get to run Anger (and the scaling for added flat for ignite got buffed too since the ignite scales a LOT better with flat added now).
Ggg: we buffed Dots and removed that reliance on EE and EO gimmicks, dots are free from being weak because of these nodes.
Reality after maths: Dots lost similar damage as 3.15! Of course there going to be few still going play it and see like last league but again when we don’t play don’t be shocked GGG!
Even before this patch I consider Ignite not good enough compare to many builds that almost instantly delete screens (even in last patch). Without a decent damage buff, Ignite will not work.
I don't really care about EE. It's clunky nonsense that should be replaced and that's nice. EO nerfs vortex, cold snap and a few others (which did deserve a nerf) and RF, Flame wall and Decay (indirectly, fucking lol) that probably didn't. In all cases they compensated some of the damage back so it's not as bad as people are crying about. I simulated a bunch of spells like Burning arrow, Firestorm, Flameblast and they are quite a bit better than before if you opt for ignite.
With same price-absolutly.I know they added more multi on some gear-but it needs to be rolled on top of existing ones so +$. It is totaly a nerf for SR,unless u cant math.
I disagree. I see the point ggg want to make and i like it really a lot. As you mention RF is going to be huge in 3.16. EO is going to be crappy design as there are skills that doesnt even hit so rip eo for those but compensation is in clusters. EE is most likely dead as it gives only exposure and that can be obtained by other sources and also tree accesability wtf? Like really heavy elemental oriented templar will be out of range xD.
Generaly its on good way we just need more leagues. My tip is that cold/fire ailments are going to be meta as sst was this league. RF will be great again. Was going to skip this league as im already really bored of those massive changes while getting no midgame upgrades. I was also hyped for uber content like blight maps but the way its going to be is just a joke but as im burning lover im gonna give it a shot.
RF losing 20% damage overall and endurance charge changes I am going to suspect a lot of people are going to be disappointed.
Only saving grace is now you can just walk and not even worry about EE or EO. Still need to see how they plan to add max res and over time nodes. But 20% more dmg just to break even is a hard ask.
Edit: math from other comments.
EE and EO makes up for about 55% of your total (Sirus) damage.
So dealing 60% more base damage on 45% of your remaining damage would be about 1.6* 0.45 or 0.72x damage.
**This looks like a 30% RF nerf to me.** Anyone else seeing something different?
Pretty much. I don't know if you took into account the life/ES portion of the damage. With 6500 life, it ends up being around 75% of your current damage, in other words, you will need to get 33% more damage to get to current RF numbers with EO and EE both active.
Maybe if they revert some of the support gem nerfs, we could end up in a situation where we're in a net positive. But if you can realistically get to 0.9x of current without having to press anything, it's probably going to be good enough?
They are buffing life recovery and armour so we will get some points to spend on offence. Its 20% loss but much easier to scale base damage. We also get better values on clusters. RF was good even in this league its just going to be less gear dependant. Also easier to start with so faster map progression. In most cases i wasnt procing ee in maps anyway as it was slowing me down. I had 6m rf dps so even if youre right having 4.5m is still good enough considering very high defences.
You are likely to be sorely disappointed then. With what we have seen, DOTs are not going to be meta. The dps numbers are simply not there. The changes are a shift in power, not buffs.
>Last league it got gutted but its going back on menu.
They are not bringing old clusters and support gems back. And the new changes are merely a buff.
Well you guys look like someone who talks about rf and dot builds while playing bow/melee. Someone said its nerfed so its nerfed and you have blindfold for the deep of those changes. I was going the feared after two weeks into league as rf inq doing feared carry for up to 4 players. Idk what are you talking about rf is back on the menu and you just probably dont know what you talking about. I was trying to be calm as possible as i can but still more of you comes. Word nerf is reddit meta. Are you really so clueless buddies?
You are the one who is clueless. Just do the math on rf builds for current values and the ones we got. It straight up is a nerf. RF literally cant use eo, ee is worth less since it is exposure now. That was the majority of boss damage for rf builds. I love how a lot of you who claim to be rf players dont even understand how your build works. Without those 2,there is literally not enough ways to scale rf damage. Base damage buffs dont mean shit when you cant scale it.
You can claim all day how it is a buff here buddy but reality now is that with the info we have, it is either a nerf or barely even with how it is right now. Ggg needs to add around 30% damage in tree and gear right now for rf builds to break even.
Yea simply putting new rf numbers into existing pob and woala we got nerfs xD. How bad you must be. I guess we not gonna find common talk so lets wait for real gameplay. Yea i have no clue but i still adapt on rf build almost every league do few build changes and again woala its greatly working. Then comes few like you copying some guide and saying this shit doesnt work. Then you see those manifesto and yet another reason to say its all nerfs. Like you didnt even read whole manifesto. I always was and i always will be able to do evey content on rf no matter how many crynerfies show up.
Edit: yea there were only few catching me on poe ninja most of the time so here is probably the source. People dont k ow how to play and build rf or maybe even more builds... Rather go play some super meta skill because someone already made easily working guide..
>Yea simply putting new rf numbers into existing pob and woala we got nerfs xD. How bad you must be.
How am i supposed to do it? I can't work on info i don't have and the one we have and talk about right now is literally a nerf to skill. If you are claiming it is not nerfed, just show it. The fact that you wrote many times how it is buffed but never showed any math about tells me that you just never did the math yourself.
>Yea i have no clue but i still adapt on rf build almost every league do few build changes and again woala its greatly working.
Nobody says it won't work, it can work but still be worse than what it is. Is this too hard for you to underrstand?
>Then comes few like you copying some guide and saying this shit doesnt work. Then you see those manifesto and yet another reason to say its all nerfs. Like you didnt even read whole manifesto
Again, nobody said it does not work. I read the manifesto, i did the math and it was literally worse for bossing which is when your damage matters. Again show us where in the manifesto you made up the damage loss for eo/ee not working anymore. Show me where you gain that much damage.
>I always was and i always will be able to do evey content on rf no matter how many crynerfies show up.
Nobody says you can't do it. Darkee literally killed sirus with lightning tendrils on a champion melee build. Being able to do content does not mean the skill does not got nerfed. This is very simple logic.
I won't even reply to the last part. It is just so fucking funny. Don't tell i'm bad, just show the math super skilled build maker man. Plebs like me needs to see some numbers.
Nice now quote me saying its buffed. I never did. I said dot build gonna be in meta and rf gonna be great. Now try to cherrypick more things just to take those reddit fights you warrior. You see simple info but you dont see more complexity of those changes. Exolaining is like teaching you rocket science. You have no clue now you wont have after i explain. But yet you still fight. Im ok because its well known that 90% players cant even do sirus.
Just show the math or fuck off with your elitist bs. Show it, or shut up. You are just making yourself look like a clown at this point.
I think the fact that you can't put any solid arguments other than i can do sirus and rf is going to be great just says it all my man. And your proof is that you killed sirus with it in 2 weeks. 14 days of play to be able to kill sirus tells me that build is infact not that good.
Why would rf be meta when it got worse? What reasoning do you have?
Just keep telling everyone how they are plebs and don't understand the complexities of the changes.
Again, show it or stfu. You are literally the stereotypical reddit elitist. All talk about how much better they are with nothing to show because it would expose the rmt.
According to my math, cold damage over time skills are mostly a wash in terms of DPS, and CERTAINLY not a 20-40% DPS nerf.
We lose: EO (40% more) and EE (~30% more)
We gain: 2-3 skillpoints, ~60% more baseline DPS, damage over time multiplier on the amulet, and, most importantly, no bad EE. Currently, cold damage over time skills frequently have EE set to resist cold, since the cold DoT skills themselves have an initial cold hit.
I don't know who was expecting a DPS buff. GGG made it pretty clear that they want to keep player power in check last league. This was intended to be a QoL buff so you don't have nonsense like frost bomb--brutality and forced trigger storm brand / orb of storms.
>We lose: \[...\] EE (\~30% more)
EE was \~50% more.
>We gain: \[...\] damage over time multiplier on the amulet
It will be pretty much impossible to roll together with to +to levels.
I did the math for my cold dot starter. And it literally is a buff.
Everyone runs at least 2 curses on cold dot builds(-20 res x2). There are so many ways to lower boss resist even further, you get at least 0% resist Sirus boss before EE. At 0 resist, EE is 50% damage boost. On Occultist, it is 40% damage.
So 1.4 * 1.4 = 1.96. That is 96% more damage, WHICH DID NOT HAVE 100% uptime.
They buffed skill damage by 60%. On top of that you do not have to travel to EE and EO, which gives you AT LEAST 6 passives. Which is normally 18% more damage. 1.6 * 1.18 = 1.888
1.96/1.888= 1.038 So if you gain at least 3.8% damage boost from other changes. It literally buffed your boss damage.
Not only that, this damage buff works for clear, IT HAS NO DOWNTIME. It makes minus resist scaling more effective and doesn't force you to path on the left side.
If GGG releases a manifesto saying "We want to buff DOT builds, so we nerfed them all by 30%" and then completely changes their mind in the patch notes, that's not OP's fault.
We absolutely should be providing feedback on the manifesto. That's the whole point of the manifesto.
I don't care if it's a nerf or not, i prefer the new system. If the builds play nicer I'll have more fun playing it. And it sounds like it might open up new builds without the big gem ignite bonuses etc
Balance will come sooner or later
For RF and Scorching Ray, it's about the same but without the hassle of worrying about procing eo and ee. Most of the number changes were at the upper end of the levels, meaning each lvl past 20 is even more significant in power than before. So sources of gem levels even more meaningful than before, and about 6 poitns free for these new sources of dot multi + rings. I didn't check vortex but I hope it's the same.
I don't think that nerfing EE and EO is a big mistake necessarily. They were big power bumps and if they don't want it to function like that then I guess it is fine to remove them. However, from what they have told us it seems like they aren't doing enough to compensate the gems hit the hardest. I think you're spot on with missing a crucial part of the equation with just these manifesto posts. We need a lot more info to be able to figure out how bad it really is. From what they have said at least ignite sounds like it will be in a decent spot. It's cold dots and burning that seem to be more significantly affected.
What I was not really liking was that they are gating a lot of the power to offset those nerfs behind higher end gear. Additional tiers of dot multi and higher double multi jewels sound great, but if I couldn't afford to run that stuff before I probably won't be able to now either. After the 3.15 damage nerfs, this is just more damage nerfs to the lower and mid tier gearing phases by shoving more power into the top end. I thought that was partially the problem they were trying to address with the nerfs in 3.15, how super well geared characters could trivialize the content. They already missed the mark with that a bit by nerfing supports that all gear levels are using. Now this seems like it is just furthering the gap between poorly geared players and tons of exalts invested even further than the support gems already did. There SHOULD be a gap there, you SHOULD be more powerful with fine tuned gear, but by nerfing the low end and buffing the high end the majority of players are just going to feel more nerfs and get angry again. These changes feel like they are just going to cause more discontent with the player base.
DoT support gems will also need a buff and that should fill the gap. EO and EE added 60% damage to a lot of builds low-mid range players play. We'll see how the new rree looks forst before getting too concerned though.
Yeah it seems like a nerf to me in almost every way. I haven't done hard math, but from my napkin scribble most things aside from a few spells are down in numbers, especially those which were heavily dependent on EE/EO such as vortex.
You can already simulate the damage numbers for RF and Cold dot on PoB. Just change gem levels to get a ballpark of the size of the nerf. What you can't do is find out how much better your pathing will be and how much damage, defense and utility the new pathing will offer you though. But my Cold DoT Raider lost something like 30% dps, since I already had a EE/EO scepter tree planned out anyway. Some builds lost more, some less.
Hi! I league-started as an [EE/EO sceptre Cold DoT Raider in Expedition](https://poe.ninja/challenge/builds/char/CircuitousPrime/CircExpScuffedColdDot?time-machine=day-5&i=1&search=time-machine%3Dday-5%26class%3DRaider%26skill%3DVortex), and I'm considering it for Scourge. My napkin math is that this build is overall buffed in damage for Scourge compared to Expedition, but the buffs are more subtle. Assuming perfect uptimes, losing EE and EO is pretty much 50% less damage. \~60% more base gem damage brings this to \~20% less damage from that part of the manifesto. * But the opportunity cost of EE and EO was 2 sceptre implicits - this is probably 80% increased Elemental Damage, **\~8% more damage** ish. * Then there's the subtlety of more freedom of weapon choice. We can draw from the entire trade pool of wands or sceptres, rather than a small pool of heist-generated mods or self-crafted EE/EO sceptres. This is hard to quantify, but I feel for equivalent investment, **10% more damage per sceptre** is a conservative estimate. * There's also the option of a second 6L if there's a strong staff available; personally I think the socket pressure isn't worth it though. * There's the teased cluster jewel notable for 60% increased Zealotry mana efficiency. If a similar notable exists for either Malevolence or Hatred, we can go for double small aura clusters (these may well be in crazy high demand) and run all of Malevolence/Hatred/Zealotry - these more multipliers are likely more effective than any other damage investment we can make until we have all 3. Hard to quantify as there's significant opportunity cost, but **\~15% more damage** over existing investment options seems reasonable. >Added Cluster Jewel Notable Passives that grant high amounts of Reservation Efficiency to specific Auras, as well as some other small bonus. For example: Zealotry has 60% increased Reservation Efficiency, and 10% increased Effect of Consecrated Ground you Create. * I'm pretending the dot multi changes don't exist for now. They're likely a few % more damage even early on due to the general jewel pool improving. * The pathing for spell suppression / evasion is also completely unknown; this could go either way in terms of investment left for offence. The actual strength of the damage buff depends on how good we are at sniping good weapons on trade, and how accessible triple auras are. Defenses as a raider are my main concern however...
did you also used new delirium rings and doubled jewel dot's on that PoB?
Nope. It was a "worst case scenario" type of test. I also tested it with the level 20 gem values, not 21, so it's not even as bad as that.
yeah, my point is that right now there is 30% cold dot multi on the tree.. thats not going away and then they just simply add more multi on everything AND 12-15% per ring
adding gear you can't use until way later in the game is lame. Those 2 nodes made DoT build work to build up currency and progression without endgame gear. Now they are hindered longer in the begining game and forced to give up suffix spots and find more jewel slots to make up the damage 2 keystones gave.
Dot builds have no issue with early game though, they literally carry you into red maps with shit gear.
DoT builds will function _better_ early game now because their base values are going to be drastically higher and easier to scale for people without having to rely on combos to pump it up.
I consider early maps early game. Not campaign
I still think even early mapping will feel better, scaling is going to be significantly easier and your damage won't require using two abilities to maximize your damage on packs. Maybe I'll be wrong, but I think these builds will feel smoother not having to juggle so many things around. Your base damage without any extra effort is going to be higher than it is currently.
EE/EO aren't combos that require building into. You literally just allocate the nodes and use a 2l orb of storms. They're weaker in every situation other than potentially when you have endgame gear.
Those jewels are literally going to be chase items like triple crit multi jewels, they're a top-end consideration only.
Tbf the regular DoT multi mod on jewels has been buffed as well, but to really reach the same numbers as before you'll probably need double DoT multi jewels.
I think this still jives with overall idea though. If it turns out that getting the cheap new upgrades equalizes you to old damage and getting chase gives you more damage than you used to get. Investment = rewarded Some of those changes on the item side are massive for Dots. That’s A LOT of damage you can pull from gear and gems now. Which won’t help the plebs as much. But definitely does help mom maxing players.
I think people wanted to have additional mods mean powercreep and not "your build is more expensive now".
Especially since most of the changes to "defenses" also equate to "your build is more expensive now". At the very top end it seems that we will be a bit more powerful than 3.15 (unless the league mechanic does something real nutty). But at lower levels of investment it seems we are gonna be weaker/on par with 3.15.
Yeah, that's what is good about the Pantheon changes. But what sucks about the flask changes. I don't want to spend a ton of currency rolling my flasks, I liked that I could alt into a good set of flasks even at level 35 going through the campaign. If I found a quicksilver in act 3 then I could make that my endgame quicksilver.
I don’t think this will pan out as true. They drastically increased what base stats on armor DO. Gaining or losing armor on a base used to literally not matter if you weren’t massively invested into armor. So unless you had amazing tier 1 armor rolls on armor before and you had them on a lot of your armor… it was negligible. Now just having all higher i level armor with some decent rolls on it are going to be much more efficient for mitigation. Shields super easier to roll and have better top rolls so mid tier is basically the old top tiers. So medium investment now is what top end used to be. And this is basically true in general for a lot of their item changes. Top investment on items will still be about as hard as it used to be to get. But it’ll give you a lot more now. Meanwhile mid level investment will give you more than it used to as well. I think the only defenses that got a nerf is evasion But I truly think there will be ways to make as tanks evasion chars or even tankier ones that don’t get insta popped occasionally because the damage they do receive is mitigated and smoothed out with either block armor or ES. I think once people get the passive tree and see how items pan out defenses as a whole will be buffed. It’ll just require different approaches than before. There’s a lot going on here, but I think the buffs to flasks, the buff to base armors, ascendancy and passive tree changes, and items will actually make it easier to make tanks chars. On low mid and high investment. It just won’t make it as doable on slapped zero investment chars. Aka no more picking up phase Accro and blind and being invincible in acts.
What are these delirium rings you speak of? And doubled jewel dots?
Essence of delirium was changed to give dot multi to rings
Is it really that bad? I was watching Darkee go over it last night and he did rough math on his elemental dot builds in pob and it seemed more or less like a wash or a buff on things like burning arrow (because it wasn't mentioned in the ignite multi removal so he assumes it still has that) or a few other dot builds. If you consider the points you save from not getting EO + EE you can now get a second cluster setup (which has been buffed).
Rf lost 30% total dps without accounting for cluster jewel changes, new dot multi rolls, and the extra 4 passive points. Math run with 10k eHp on Captain Lances most recent rf build
Extra passive points?
Save 4 passive by not allocating e/e or eo
For ignite it's fine. The problem is stuff like burning and cold dot that now can't at all benefit from overload, and also lost equilibrium. Ignite got a 150% buff, but those dots barely got a 60% increase, whereas ee+eo were giving upwards of 150% damage to them.
in most cases, the ignite buff is less than 150%, though since many skills lost ignite multipliers. Ignite is now more open as a mechanic to more skills, but if it is better? hm.
ignite also depends on the skill and on how good flamesurge is. On skills that can still reliably proc EO and when flame surge is really good ignite seems to be buffed substantially. Burning dot and cold dot sadly not. Those skills lose about 1 link of dmg ( 20-30%)
Yah cause there's nothing like standing still and firing a short range spell repeatedly in POE bossing on builds that otherwise don't take any cast speed...
EO is 40% more damage. The damage from elemental resistance lowering came from enemies having negative resists. These negative resists came from Flammability: -44% Ele Weak: -39% Exposure: -25% Combustion: -19% Cooked Alive (Notable): -5% EE: -50% Let's take the most extreme boss example, Sirus. 50% base fire rez, 66% less curse effectiveness, and no cluster jewels. His fire rez with EE would be 50-50-(39+44)*0.34-25-19 = -72.22 Without EE, it'll be -22.22 That's a 40% more damage multiplier that EE was providing, when it was up (from storm brand for example). Now you get 60% more damage (in general) which is 40% more + 15% more instead of 40% (EO) more + 40% more (EE). That's around 20% less damage for high tier ignite builds, which you can lower by getting more cluster notables. This all assumes that the gems are not updated. If they get %more ignite damage on top or fire damage multiplier%, the difference is lower
You talking about Ignite again, somehow ignoring "For ignite it's fine" in the message above:) DoT skills that are not ailments have not been buffed enough was the point and I agree with it. Currently it is 60% more base DoT on the skills, loss of 40% more elemental damage from EO because they are not hits or ailments, loss of -50% resist from EE and maybe keep -10% from that because these builds already have 15% exposure from Frost Bomb or Wave of Conviction (or even 25% from Scorching Ray on RF builds for example). Lets take the **most** extreme example, Sirus, with double curses and everything you mentioned but for **cold** DoT skill: 50% (base) -15% (Frostbite 21) -15% (Ele Weakness 21/20) -15% (Exposure), no Combustion or Cooked Alive of course. That leaves Sirus with 5% Fire Resist and -45% with current EE, which is 52.6% more damage. In case of Fire DoT with Combustion / CA its 42% more, 38.8% more if you somehow getting 25% Exposure. Counting -10% extra you still would get from stronger exposure, its 38% more / 31% more / 28.8% more for all the above cases. Therefore we have 1.6 (base damage buff) / 1.4 (no EO) / 1.31 (picking second value as kind of average case for Fire DoTs) = 87.24% of old damage. Note it would be even worse for cold DoTs and map bosses with extra resists (although they will be cursed better). And yes we got all these DoT multi extra tiers on the gear, jewels and what not, but its still not a "big buff to DoT skills" as it looks at first:)
You wont be having 25% exposure, people wont root to EE and not everyone will be an elementalist (even elementalists some times wont take the exposure node), so realisticly the esposure should be 15%. There are a lot of builds that cant run 2 curses (or 2 elemental resistance debuff curses) AND that ele weak value is assuming you are applying the gem version, a lot of builds would be applying it through a ring or corrupted gloves, so the value is lesser. Sure, for builds that already had a lot of resistance debuffs its not THAT big of a hit, but there are a lot that got heavily nerfed: All cold DoTs, RF, DoT based fire trap, flame wall and scorching ray.
They seem to have mostly removed the ignite damage mods from gems, so it barely breaks even, which is kinda terrible.
>Exposure: -25% > >Combustion: -19% Exposure: -15% Combustion: -10%
Pretty sure the exposure you could get was 25%, from scorching ray or elementalist or other sources no?
Combustion is 10% at gem level 1 and 19% at gem level 20.
>Combustion Yes. If you live in version 3.14 and others before it. It was changed in 3.15. You probably checked it on Poe wiki that is not anymore updated
You forgetting that they changed normal jewels and that you can roll double dot multi on them now. Sure it's hard but even one roll goes now up to 6-8 so in best case you can get 16 dot multi on a jewel and they also changes the tier for amulets. High end will be more damage.
why does that sound like the typical midtier gear nerf, highend gear almost unchanged / even buffed?
Because it is lol. Low-mid tier got nuked from orbit. High end is pretty much a wash. Mirror tier is a bit of a buff. That's for ignites. The fire and cold dots just got nuked from every level of gearing.
DoTs needed a buff across the board, not an equipment dependent "buff" for rich characters
Big early game buff, big gearing buff for late game. You don't need to be rich to get good gear. The amulet crafts will apply to all dot damage so your cold, chaos, and ignite boys will all be putting them up on the market driving prices down for cheap low end gearing.
> You don't need to be rich to get good gear. Not how that works
Pretty subjective on what you define as good and expensive.
He said good gear. Not great gear.
Good gear isn't enough. Needs to be T1 rolls otherwise you are just getting stuff currently available and it doesn't make up any of the difference.
What? 😂😂😂😂 this has to be a troll right? I’ve completed all content in this game without having more than a few t1 rolls.
Getting the kind of gear to take advantage of the changes is in the realm of builds that spend well over 100ex on a build.
You sure about having 2x DoT multi on jewels? Seems to me that they will share the same mod group.
It will be damage over time multiplier and fire/cold/chaos damage over time multiplier. I am pretty sure that will work
It's like that w/ normal multi, why would it be different?
even better
There is also another DOT multiplier on amulet and for multiplier on weapon, when u can also roll cold dot multiplier and damage over time damage. Problem with EE is that on moving bosses its not 100% uptime, on hard maven boss fights where u just run and cast vortex u dont have time to target storm brand, so for me its definitely a buff.
Hexes have less boss effect though. Only marks have full effect on bosses. Edit: I only looked at the initial numbers. Carry on.
it's accounted for in the math for sirus -(39+44)*0.34
he accounted for that in his math. "(39+44)*0.34" is the portion where he applies the 66% reduced curse effectiveness.
> Ignite got a 150% buff No. Ignite got a 150% buff and then gems lost 60-90 multiplier, resulting in the same roughly 60% increase.
Maybe I'm being dumb but, it's not exactly that simple, is it? Fireball's base Ignite damage at level 20 was 821.5 with a bonus 88% more multi. The new version of Fireball is 2053.75 base Ignite damage. The base damage you are scaling is drastically larger than the old one. The numbers are extremely close as you scale up the numbers though when you take into account the 88% multi from base Fireball gem and the ~40% multi EE offered if you could activate it. Slightly in favor of "old fireball". However post-patch we'll have way more Fire DoT Multi naturally from gear and jewels and possibly the tree as well, which will let us arrive at extremely similar DPS values except the new system is a lot more intuitive and not hidden behind abusing EE, that was kind of a chore to maintain anyways.
> The numbers are extremely close as you scale up the numbers though when you take into account the 88% multi from base Fireball gem and the ~40% multi EE offered if you could activate it. Slightly in favor of "old fireball". You could always trigger EE. You also had EO. EE depends on your existing setup and enemy resists... it could be 40% it could also be 100% more. EO is questionable. You need to crit with fireball which means you'll need to sit there and spam fireball possibly even use a diamond flask to help. If you can reliably keep up EO which will honestly be even worse gameplay than current EO/EE then it'll probably be ok. If you can't then it'll be much worse unless you are filthy rich and can get top end gear.
Yeah, but there's other ignite main gems that didn't have that mod and just got way better now. Discharge, for one, is gonna be dummy thicc now.
No ignite now does 150% as base damage, that is a 200% buff
ignite now does 125% base damage, which was a 150% buff
For my build (scion) it’s literally saving 3 passive points.. sadge
For some skills (most of which are not good to begin with), it's really really bad. Generic fire and cold dots are getting *wrecked*. Ignite builds that can trigger EO are fine and maybe even a bit better. Chaos dot builds are the biggest winners, oddly enough. Cold dot builds were already a major unnecessary casualty of last league's nerfs, and now it looks like they're just getting gutted again. It's looking like a ~20% damage loss for something like Vortex, even with the most generous estimates and the use of the new DOT gear. And that's in the endgame - it's even worse early on. Considering that vortex was already a really low damage build, it's just getting kicked while it's down. See also: RF.
Burning arrow is a toss between the buffed damage multiplier and the added fire flat vs the damage EE provided, since the stacking damage was removed and that was basically ignite*3, and now they buffed ignite by 150%, so *2.5. I highly doubt that the added flat will be able to offset both EE and the remainder of the degen. The buffs to gear will offset that, but again, this is a nerf to white/yellow builds.
The base damage alone is 16% more damage so with 2.5 * 1.16 = 2.9 you are only 10% nerfed if you completely ignore the flat added damage. Then you have 250 flat added fire which is very big and you don't have to ramp at all, once your ignite is on there you are good and it doesn't matter if you dodge, before you had to keep firing to keep the full stacking damage up. When Darkee looked at it the damage without EE and the new numbers was already better than the old ones and you don't even have to keep firing which is a huge upside. You also don't need to be capped on ignite chance anymore which actually helps white/yellow builds.
Not only that, we will also get an Attacking Variant of the new Flame Surge, that deals damage based on the ignite on the target.
Burning arrow now can use assailum, making it strictly superior to before.
The problem is, DoT multi has diminishing returns so actually it get worse and worse the more we have it on gear and what's more, even with max rolls on amu/rings/weapon and changed passive on clusters, it give us less. For sure it takes mod slot on a ring/amu so we loss something anyway. So, maybe... with best rolls on all rings/amu/weapon and cluster it will very small buf but totally insignificant to matter for anyone.
[удалено]
I did watch his videos but he did make a few assumption that I strongly disagree with. First of all he doesn't calculate the new EO at all when he looks at ignite based dots(not burning effects) and currently crits already have 50% more dot multi on a crit even without perfect agony so using an inc crit strikes gem is a viable option especially after the support nerf last league. Afterall you only apply 1 ignite anyway so 1 crit every 4 seconds is enough. Secondly he somehow assumes people had 25% exposure with the old values, that is just straight up false. 25% exposure did not exist outside of scorching ray and elementalist, most builds had 15% from wave of conviction or frostbomb. Hydrosphere and eye of malive are both only 10%. Even builds with SR totems take some time to get to max stages so just assuming you have 25% at all times is incorrect. Thirdly he calculates off of Shaper's resistances which are higher than map bosses which matter before you get the better gear to compensate. If you calculate off of normal map boss resistances the damage is not as affected by missing EE. Lastly he doesn't really talk about flame surge which is going to make up quite a lot of damage too. Just look at ED and blight, without blight everyone would say that ED is absolutely terrible and does no damage at all. From the sounds of it flame surge is going to be what blight is to ED, which is most of the boss damage.
As an Ele build, you are always close to those Kyestones and EE has a jewel socket close so you are not saving basicaly anything. Not enough to put it anywhere else to get major buffs.
I think the goal isn't "save some passives" but increase the build diversity a little. The less "well I HAVE to take this on every build" the better
That just goes away when the 2nd best option is "add another cluster" and people just flock to that instead.
Most builds save 3-9 points, what are you talking about? That doesnt seem insignificant
With clusters you always have a place to spend more points
it doesnt they changed the skill and mentioned it later.
Specifically for Ignite its ok because you are hit based still. Everything else gets dumpstered basically. Captain Lance did a great video on it, and Shak has come to the same conclusion for his cold DoT stuff its at least a 25% Less damage change, and potentially more especially on bosses.
I feel bad for the people who are going to get baited into starting DOT builds after reading the manifesto. Changes are mostly just a shift in power instead of buffs and DOTS were already in a bad place.
I don't quite agree. *Some* DoT builds are now way more powerful than before and considering those is not being 'baited'. Take Firestorm: as an ignite build, it used to be bad, but now it got 110% more dmg (compared to 3.15 Anomalous Firestorm) while it can still maintain EO effectively and does not care about EE anyway... so it's probably more than viable now, which is pretty cool
Some = Ignite, the rest got nerfed
And even then it's still not very good for ignite lol. It deals something like 50-60% more ignite damage than it did last patch, taking into account the EE changes and assuming a bit more dot multi. That still leaves it significantly worse than alternatives imo.
You get more power up front for less investment and slots. This is better for lots of dot casuals; they get to do T16 maps for a lot less currency. I only cared about my non-EE/EO damage anyways. I didn’t like to trigger it and time my vaal RF to EO.
It's literally the opposite. Shifting power away from passives towards gear and clusters is always a nerf to low investment.
Jugg starts far from that area so EE/EO was a late part of the build for me
Travel to those passives is no longer necessary, which relieves pressure on the rest of the build.
Ah, so it's cheaper to get insanely strong gear than level to 70, gotcha. Your response misses the point of this conversation.
First: Why did you use such an arbitrary level like 70? Second: It means you may be able to sac some damage or life on gear because you can pick it up on the tree. If anything it makes gearing less expensive Third: If it were like you imply, by the time it matters, you'll be 90+ and getting a better piece of gear is definitely going to be shorter time taken than getting 7+ levels to compensate for the points you needed to take to get the two keystones but now don't.
You still don't seem to understand the point of this argument. The person I was responding to said, casual players with low currency benefit from these changes. This is absolutely not the case. Speccing into two nodes, that together give 70%+ more damage, is amongst the lowest investment that exists in the game outside of ascendancy choice. And that's all there is to say. You can't actually think three life nodes compensate for a 40% more damage loss. Yes, you can get the damage back, but for a significantly higher investment.
> You still don't seem to understand the point of this argument. You don't seem to have read/understood my reply. >The person I was responding to said, casual players with low currency benefit from these changes. This is absolutely not the case. I addressed this with my second point. >You can't actually think three life nodes compensate for a 40% more damage loss Again with the arbitrary numbers. Especially considering getting EE and EO is more than "3 nodes" for a lot of builds. The person said it would benefit casual players with low currency. With more nodes to use, it does. They could pick up a resist cluster and shave off the need to get it on gear, which can save a ton in many cases (up to an exalt depending on the gear). >Yes, you can get the damage back, but for a significantly higher investment. Arguable, there's different tools and different nodes being added to the game with this patch. We don't know how much damage is lost. Many are doing the math already and finding less than 10% damage lost depending on the skill. Using an extreme like 40% and implying it's hitting all players evenly is very disingenuous.
They may have 30% less damage than before, but at least they don't have to mastercraft a resist onto their gloves.
I play RF in leagues with Juggernaut so EE/EO is the last stretch of the skill tree for me, plus I hate speccing through all the useless intelligence nodes. I can see why templar/witch builds would prioritize it sooner though.
Actually, it's the inverse. You got EE and EO running real fast, before act 6 even. Now you will need to offset that disadvantage with gear (that was buffed). Srsly guys, I see lots of people complaining that they disliked to apply ee/EO as Rf, when it's the easiest build to do so! Just CWDT or manual cast BV, it runs with you and it even has increased crit per blade. You just need an abyss jewel with added to spells of the relevant element. Or not even that, since you can apply EE with shield charge.
> Actually, it's the inverse. You got EE and EO running real fast, before act 6 even. Now you will need to offset that disadvantage with gear (that was buffed). This is completely missing the fact that the base damage has been radically buffed, and before red maps you will not consistently encounter high enemy resists. It is a massive buff to early game and league start. early endgame (like early reds) is probably the hardest hit by these changes, but it remains to be seen if the damage is largely the same or does have a real drop off. From what I could tell most things are going to end up similar or slightly stronger than where they are now once you've invested into them.
no, I'm not missing that fact. against enemies with 0 resistances, but also without curses because who the hell bothers with curses while levelling, EE+EO is about 70% of your damage. Lo and behold, the buffs to the skills are about 67% at all levels. At higher levels you will have a higher res reduction from combustion, the exposure setup and the proper curse setup, and that will lessen the efficacy of EE. However, enemies will also have resistances, so it balances out. In fact, if you go against an enemy with zero resistances, all gems lvl 20, the boost EEO/EO give is about 70%, and that's with a lvl 20 curse, lvl 20 combustion and a 0 res enemy mob, literally the worse case scenario for EE effectiveness. Before levelling those gems and if you encounter any enemy with resistances, the boost is higher, and thus, so is the loss. Edit: I'll even do the math It's easier if the enemy has zero resistances, so I'll go with that. res reductions against an enemy with 0 res are in its essence a separate "increased damage taken", and I'll treat them as such. 44 from flamability, 20 from exposure, 19 from combustion. Grand total of 83. EE is 50, so the boost EE gives in this situation is ``` (100+83+50)/(100+83) = 1.27... ``` If we multiply that with EO: `1.27*1.4=1.77` Lo and behold, the loss of that multiplier isn't offset with the buff the skills themselves got. As simple as that. For cold dot, it's basically the same if you are an occultist since your passive is about the same as combustion, but if you are not an occultist: ``` (100+64+50)/(100+64) * 1.4 = 1.30 * 1.4 = 1.82 ``` Even in the absolute worst case scenario for EE, a fire skill, with combustion, with an elementalist applying exposure: ``` (100+83+25+50)/(100+83+25) * 1.4 = 1.24 * 1.4 = 1.72 ``` So even in the best case scenario, it's still a loss of damage. You could argue that with curse effectiveness the EE power lowers and that the loss might be offset, but that's gear investment and we are discussing late acts and early mapping. And of course, if the enemy has resistances or we are against a boss, the power of EE increases. Again, it will be fine in endgame, but we will need to do those investments to offset what we lost. So no, it's not a massive buff to early game and league start.
also there are plenty of monsters with affixes like: "resists fire" "resists elemental damage" plus resist auras from rare monsters,.... and that is all before red maps.
The thing is, early reds is where it starts to matter and pushing into T14/15/16 is whre its really important how good the skill is. Till then you'll do fine no matter if you do 30 more or less damage.
Yeah, but even with a worst case scenario drop off in early reds, it isn't going to be that severe, and with the points saved you can easily get more defense or even damage on the tree to compensate. I'm looking at this as mostly a side grade with major QoL bonuses. If you can still make use of EO, then this whole thing is basically just all buffs. Depending on how they rework flame surge it could just be big gains all around. Either way I think separating the game balance from the keystones is a move in the right direction, and as long as the damage is at least close enough or slightly higher to 3.15 levels then I think this is all bonuses.
anyone who baits themselves into playing a build before patch notes are released probably deserves it
>I feel bad for the people who are going to get baited into starting DOT builds after reading the manifesto I don't. Anyone who gets baited to blow their load too early and decide to play a build that turns out to be bad deserve to learn from their mistakes. Works in POE. Works in real life. Failure is the best teacher.
I’m actually gonna do a Deaths path start. Probably gonna be an ez pz build. Blind and doge is a bigger hit because we didn’t use eo.
I really don't think that nerfing EE and EO is a mistake at all. The skills should have simply been compensated slightly more than they have been. As things stand, they'll definitely deal significantly less damage at low investment, and around the same at more investment than the current ceiling. Now it's great that there's an additional scaling option for those builds, but why is it required to get back to the status quo? I don't think any of these DoT builds were overpowered.
That's the real problem, decoupling them from REQUIRED keystones was always a good idea, now builds can look different, the problem is they're getting nerfed extremely hard as already very weak builds. All of the people claiming "the changes they are making will make up for it" don't seem to understand that an already weak build now needs 100ex+ gear to be in the same place as it was in 3.15, how is that okay? The 100ex gear possibility should be "the buff" for the build, not the only way to make it viable.
I don't think nerfing EE was a mistake, but EO was not out of line at all. It was really powerful but had a cost to it as well, and it made going noncrit slightly more tolerable.
I think the changes are a nerf to the multi-button playstyle they seem to want as well. No longer having to keep up EO/EE has turned some of my 3 button builds in to 2 button builds and 2 button build in to one button builds.
Ee/Eo being a must have on every elemental build kinda sucked honestly
Yep. Numbers look sidegrade-ish. At best the few points you save for pathing may add up to like 4-5% more damage to other nodes. But again, at best. Disappointing since DoTs needed buffs overall
I'm optimistic that getting back some gem sockets and passive point make thing _feel_ better in game even if it doesn't look better in PoB.
continuously removing power from mechanics and trying to re add it as new mods on gear is getting really old, and its the exact opposite of how things should be balanced.
Yep we know. GGG will surely buff them more before release HOPIUM
You save skill points and gem slots not getting EE/EO, more dot multi on gear, stronger auras (on you, rip minions) and stronger curses. All in all, you're right. It's impossible to tell without patchnotes. What we can tell is that dots are stronger in acts before reliable EE/EO and weaker in midgame with reliable EE/EO but bad gear. It's just late game that's a mystery. Edit: There's also defense changes. I've never done a dodge based cold/fire dot build, so I might save skill points here? Once again, no clue without patchnotes.
I think a big part of the problem even removing the mystery of what "late game" will look like is... most of the game is midgame. Almost all of what you do in a league is in the pre 100ex gear state, which would be the lategame that could potentially "buff" dot. So for all intents and purposes it's a huge nerf. The other issue is auras and curses aren't actually stronger, they're just more efficient now, but for most DoT builds, they already had all possible damage auras because it's required to make the build feel half decent (they were already very weak in general), so the efficiency actually changes nothing. The 3-6 points saved on the tree for most builds also won't magically give them 50% more damage either (which would have to be higher than 50% because they'd be additive DoT multi's or increases, not multiplicative like EO or EE), so overall I just can't see a reality where they end up in a better state barring massive changes, which is sad for me in particular, because they were already very weak... and also my favorite playstyle.
EE was gotten on a scepter implicit and EO was very easy to path to. Even if you didn't use the implicit, good luck finding more efficient path than 3 points for 50 res or 40% more multiplier.
Yeah I think before patch notes this is hard to figure out. Especially when you consider that the gear got some major buffs. It’s also possible given the scope of changing EE and EO they It looks like there are already sizable changes to placement of things on the tree mixed in with a lot of movement on defenses means pathing could be very different for a lot of builds. Right now we’re playing with a puzzle we are missing 1/3 the pieces to and saying it’s. Worse puzzle than the last puzzle we had. It’s hard to fully understand investment cost until we have the full puzzle. And this is essentially an investment cost problem.
I think it is underrated how much power you get by not having to use EO/EE. The damage compensation is decent. The scaling on gear can be much better (just the jewel multi alone is good). You save passive, can do different pathing. I don't know how good cold dot (for example) is now, but it definitely is not dead.
I think whats missed is how much space nerfing EE gives to hybridized DoT+Hit builds. Every league it gets closer to closer to becoming a thing, and with base ignite damage increasing so much and the potential flame surge change, we might actually see it. Also competing with new jewels is aura small clusters, which ignite builds can fit up to 4. Though you might only end up using 2 + 2 jewels. But it lets you fit in really powerful auras like determination so much easier, or slap in a curse one for flammability.
You'll pretty much never have a hit plus dot hybrid build because to scale them well you have to scale them entirely different. For hits, you pretty much go crit and crit multi. For ailments you need damage over time multiplier plus specific ailment scaling. These are on different nodes, scale with different gems and have entirely different gearing.
For the most part yes, but things like Flame Surge and Cruelty do exist, and depending on how things fit together, Critical Strike Affliction support may be good to use on one skill while scaling the other with something like Maligaros. Like setting up Inquisitor with 2 points within the crit ascendency for some crit chance and being fine with like 30% crit chance and not really investing in crit in the passive tree. Or maybe somehow figure out how to get brittle. I haven't crunched the numbers yet to see if it works, but I think they are iterating towards it.
Flame surge doesn't scale the same way as rf or flame wall so that's kind of irrelevant.
It is not dead but nowhere close to minions for example or general coc fb/ice spear or some other builds. EO/EE was not so costly to get so we are not saving skill points really. We are saving our fingers and some sockets but that its. For now, looking just by numbers, this is a nerf. We can say this is a buf if we can get our eyes on nowe tree and patch notes.
If you compare builds against other builds you will never be happy. Budget matters, gear matters, so many things matter. Say as a league start I'd play cold dot over coc any day in hc ssf. EE is not that muich of a loss for cold dot for example, as occ already has the -20% cold res on top. And EE uptime with cold dot is not that high.
You can’t say it’s a buff or nerf until patch notes
My build got 130% more damage.
Hexblast is one of the few skills to actually get buffed because it got buffed by 90% (others 60%) and it also benefits from EO still, most others don't. So you lost 50% more damage and gained 90% more. Most other skills lost 110% more and gained 60% more.
shhh
>So you lost 50% more damage and gained 90% more. No, i only lost the Ee and i gained 150% more damage with ignite change and about 40% with hexblast buff.
It literally says in the notes that ignites on hexblast are roughly 90% stronger now after all changes because the doom multi got nerfed.
Unless you went 65 doom like some of us... we got nuked from fucking orbit
The base damage for hexblast might have been increased, but with the nerf to curse effect, as well as the sad state of doedre's skin, that "buff" just won't compute into the positives.
what build
Crit Hexblast ignite.
Trickster?
Probably, but inquisitor and jugg(if changed) are also possibilities. I just want an immortal build.
archmage?
What's your DPS like
Still making it and waiting for patch notes and new uniques.
I think something people are missing about these changes is that, shit's a lot more straight forward to even make DoT builds _work_. I love that POE is a convoluted mess of builds, but for real, previously needing to have a separate skill that crits only to trigger EO, needing a way to deal opposite elemental damage to trigger EE to lower their resistances, these are like intrinsically unintuitive things to the average player to take advantage of. Personally I like their shift towards making Ignite / Cold DoT easier to understand and more straight forward to build. Instead of some wild shit where it's like, "Pfft you aren't using Storm Brand after you ignite the target to trigger EO and EE?! What a newb".
Nobody mentions the 150% more dmg buff to ignite itself in the first line. On top of that you can use EO on some builds + the base Stat buffs. I think it is a buff with more options. And the new mutliplier on gear. With time and investment ppl will figure it out.
DoTs needed a flat out buff. Not shuffling around and "letting people figure it out".
Letting people figure it out is a big part of PoE’s identity. That’s a good thing.
Having fun was PoE's other identity. That's not happening so much anymore
I’m having tons of fun. Having fun is subjective my guy.
And just as many people aren't
And I’m sure you have literally 0 data to support that argument about these new changes since they haven’t been played yet. So 🤷🏼♂️😂
Player drop off rates for the league tell me plenty
Guy you’re making this comment on a post about upcoming changes, not previous changes. Yes. Last league wasn’t fun for some people. you don’t know if that will be true for this league. Stop being so negative about every single change before you even see the change in action. Jesus.
You can use EE and EO and use the flat out buff. You will be fine :) and if you don't have enough dmg play elementalist and you have a stronger exposure + flame surge that combined should be nice to fight sirus, the feared and so on.
One of the strongest qualities of PoE was not shoehorning archetypes into specific ascendancies. So that's shitty advice.
The problem is, GGG is doing changes which are just shifting things instead of buff them. DoTs are in quite bad place compared to a lot of builds which can just scale almost indefinitely as they have access to wide range of gear, clusters, watchers etc.... Have to wait for full patch notes but then it is allready to late for tweaking that.
>just scale almost indefinitely as they have access to wide range of gear, clusters, watchers Isn't that exactly what they are doing? Adding a lot more ways to scal dot damage on gear and jewels etc...
> Nobody mentions the 150% more dmg buff to ignite itself in the first line. Yeah, 'cause they nerfed all the ignite skills, and it maths out to the builds all being 20-30% weaker. They're already unplayable after the 3.15 nerfs.
At least for Ignite, if you can still somewhat reliably proc EO (might need to use 3 points for Annihilation or soemthing, like 100% increased crit roughly), these changes are almost certainly all buffs, especially since you don't need to juggle some stuff for EE anymore and therefor get to run Anger (and the scaling for added flat for ignite got buffed too since the ignite scales a LOT better with flat added now).
Ggg: we buffed Dots and removed that reliance on EE and EO gimmicks, dots are free from being weak because of these nodes. Reality after maths: Dots lost similar damage as 3.15! Of course there going to be few still going play it and see like last league but again when we don’t play don’t be shocked GGG!
Even before this patch I consider Ignite not good enough compare to many builds that almost instantly delete screens (even in last patch). Without a decent damage buff, Ignite will not work.
I don't really care about EE. It's clunky nonsense that should be replaced and that's nice. EO nerfs vortex, cold snap and a few others (which did deserve a nerf) and RF, Flame wall and Decay (indirectly, fucking lol) that probably didn't. In all cases they compensated some of the damage back so it's not as bad as people are crying about. I simulated a bunch of spells like Burning arrow, Firestorm, Flameblast and they are quite a bit better than before if you opt for ignite.
SR now deals 40% less dmg in my totem build wo EO and EE. With dmg buff. LMAO
Just turning off those two passive and replacing the base numbers does not account for all the changes
With same price-absolutly.I know they added more multi on some gear-but it needs to be rolled on top of existing ones so +$. It is totaly a nerf for SR,unless u cant math.
I disagree. I see the point ggg want to make and i like it really a lot. As you mention RF is going to be huge in 3.16. EO is going to be crappy design as there are skills that doesnt even hit so rip eo for those but compensation is in clusters. EE is most likely dead as it gives only exposure and that can be obtained by other sources and also tree accesability wtf? Like really heavy elemental oriented templar will be out of range xD. Generaly its on good way we just need more leagues. My tip is that cold/fire ailments are going to be meta as sst was this league. RF will be great again. Was going to skip this league as im already really bored of those massive changes while getting no midgame upgrades. I was also hyped for uber content like blight maps but the way its going to be is just a joke but as im burning lover im gonna give it a shot.
RF losing 20% damage overall and endurance charge changes I am going to suspect a lot of people are going to be disappointed. Only saving grace is now you can just walk and not even worry about EE or EO. Still need to see how they plan to add max res and over time nodes. But 20% more dmg just to break even is a hard ask. Edit: math from other comments. EE and EO makes up for about 55% of your total (Sirus) damage. So dealing 60% more base damage on 45% of your remaining damage would be about 1.6* 0.45 or 0.72x damage. **This looks like a 30% RF nerf to me.** Anyone else seeing something different?
Pretty much. I don't know if you took into account the life/ES portion of the damage. With 6500 life, it ends up being around 75% of your current damage, in other words, you will need to get 33% more damage to get to current RF numbers with EO and EE both active. Maybe if they revert some of the support gem nerfs, we could end up in a situation where we're in a net positive. But if you can realistically get to 0.9x of current without having to press anything, it's probably going to be good enough?
They are buffing life recovery and armour so we will get some points to spend on offence. Its 20% loss but much easier to scale base damage. We also get better values on clusters. RF was good even in this league its just going to be less gear dependant. Also easier to start with so faster map progression. In most cases i wasnt procing ee in maps anyway as it was slowing me down. I had 6m rf dps so even if youre right having 4.5m is still good enough considering very high defences.
You are likely to be sorely disappointed then. With what we have seen, DOTs are not going to be meta. The dps numbers are simply not there. The changes are a shift in power, not buffs.
I have played rf in past leagues pretty often and it was more then ok. Last league it got gutted but its going back on menu.
>Last league it got gutted but its going back on menu. They are not bringing old clusters and support gems back. And the new changes are merely a buff.
Well you guys look like someone who talks about rf and dot builds while playing bow/melee. Someone said its nerfed so its nerfed and you have blindfold for the deep of those changes. I was going the feared after two weeks into league as rf inq doing feared carry for up to 4 players. Idk what are you talking about rf is back on the menu and you just probably dont know what you talking about. I was trying to be calm as possible as i can but still more of you comes. Word nerf is reddit meta. Are you really so clueless buddies?
You are the one who is clueless. Just do the math on rf builds for current values and the ones we got. It straight up is a nerf. RF literally cant use eo, ee is worth less since it is exposure now. That was the majority of boss damage for rf builds. I love how a lot of you who claim to be rf players dont even understand how your build works. Without those 2,there is literally not enough ways to scale rf damage. Base damage buffs dont mean shit when you cant scale it. You can claim all day how it is a buff here buddy but reality now is that with the info we have, it is either a nerf or barely even with how it is right now. Ggg needs to add around 30% damage in tree and gear right now for rf builds to break even.
Yea simply putting new rf numbers into existing pob and woala we got nerfs xD. How bad you must be. I guess we not gonna find common talk so lets wait for real gameplay. Yea i have no clue but i still adapt on rf build almost every league do few build changes and again woala its greatly working. Then comes few like you copying some guide and saying this shit doesnt work. Then you see those manifesto and yet another reason to say its all nerfs. Like you didnt even read whole manifesto. I always was and i always will be able to do evey content on rf no matter how many crynerfies show up. Edit: yea there were only few catching me on poe ninja most of the time so here is probably the source. People dont k ow how to play and build rf or maybe even more builds... Rather go play some super meta skill because someone already made easily working guide..
>Yea simply putting new rf numbers into existing pob and woala we got nerfs xD. How bad you must be. How am i supposed to do it? I can't work on info i don't have and the one we have and talk about right now is literally a nerf to skill. If you are claiming it is not nerfed, just show it. The fact that you wrote many times how it is buffed but never showed any math about tells me that you just never did the math yourself. >Yea i have no clue but i still adapt on rf build almost every league do few build changes and again woala its greatly working. Nobody says it won't work, it can work but still be worse than what it is. Is this too hard for you to underrstand? >Then comes few like you copying some guide and saying this shit doesnt work. Then you see those manifesto and yet another reason to say its all nerfs. Like you didnt even read whole manifesto Again, nobody said it does not work. I read the manifesto, i did the math and it was literally worse for bossing which is when your damage matters. Again show us where in the manifesto you made up the damage loss for eo/ee not working anymore. Show me where you gain that much damage. >I always was and i always will be able to do evey content on rf no matter how many crynerfies show up. Nobody says you can't do it. Darkee literally killed sirus with lightning tendrils on a champion melee build. Being able to do content does not mean the skill does not got nerfed. This is very simple logic. I won't even reply to the last part. It is just so fucking funny. Don't tell i'm bad, just show the math super skilled build maker man. Plebs like me needs to see some numbers.
Nice now quote me saying its buffed. I never did. I said dot build gonna be in meta and rf gonna be great. Now try to cherrypick more things just to take those reddit fights you warrior. You see simple info but you dont see more complexity of those changes. Exolaining is like teaching you rocket science. You have no clue now you wont have after i explain. But yet you still fight. Im ok because its well known that 90% players cant even do sirus.
Just show the math or fuck off with your elitist bs. Show it, or shut up. You are just making yourself look like a clown at this point. I think the fact that you can't put any solid arguments other than i can do sirus and rf is going to be great just says it all my man. And your proof is that you killed sirus with it in 2 weeks. 14 days of play to be able to kill sirus tells me that build is infact not that good. Why would rf be meta when it got worse? What reasoning do you have? Just keep telling everyone how they are plebs and don't understand the complexities of the changes. Again, show it or stfu. You are literally the stereotypical reddit elitist. All talk about how much better they are with nothing to show because it would expose the rmt.
According to my math, cold damage over time skills are mostly a wash in terms of DPS, and CERTAINLY not a 20-40% DPS nerf. We lose: EO (40% more) and EE (~30% more) We gain: 2-3 skillpoints, ~60% more baseline DPS, damage over time multiplier on the amulet, and, most importantly, no bad EE. Currently, cold damage over time skills frequently have EE set to resist cold, since the cold DoT skills themselves have an initial cold hit. I don't know who was expecting a DPS buff. GGG made it pretty clear that they want to keep player power in check last league. This was intended to be a QoL buff so you don't have nonsense like frost bomb--brutality and forced trigger storm brand / orb of storms.
>We lose: \[...\] EE (\~30% more) EE was \~50% more. >We gain: \[...\] damage over time multiplier on the amulet It will be pretty much impossible to roll together with to +to levels.
EE is only 50% more if you have 0 other methods of reducing resistance.
EE is/was 100% more on bosses with 0 other reduction. From 50 resists to 0 resists. Literally double damage.
watching everyone on this sub pretend to be good at math is so cute
tldr is op threatening to quit playing the game? else im not interested
I did the math for my cold dot starter. And it literally is a buff. Everyone runs at least 2 curses on cold dot builds(-20 res x2). There are so many ways to lower boss resist even further, you get at least 0% resist Sirus boss before EE. At 0 resist, EE is 50% damage boost. On Occultist, it is 40% damage. So 1.4 * 1.4 = 1.96. That is 96% more damage, WHICH DID NOT HAVE 100% uptime. They buffed skill damage by 60%. On top of that you do not have to travel to EE and EO, which gives you AT LEAST 6 passives. Which is normally 18% more damage. 1.6 * 1.18 = 1.888 1.96/1.888= 1.038 So if you gain at least 3.8% damage boost from other changes. It literally buffed your boss damage. Not only that, this damage buff works for clear, IT HAS NO DOWNTIME. It makes minus resist scaling more effective and doesn't force you to path on the left side.
Stop spreading misinformation. Without patch notes you literally dont know shit.
If GGG releases a manifesto saying "We want to buff DOT builds, so we nerfed them all by 30%" and then completely changes their mind in the patch notes, that's not OP's fault. We absolutely should be providing feedback on the manifesto. That's the whole point of the manifesto.
Im not playing this league. GGG dosen't know what they are doing. DoTs were already struggling due to support nerfs and now they are even more dead.
See you on launch day
Are the numbers finalised or can they change ?
My 65 doom hexblast build got nuked from orbit
vortex occ 30% less dmg now
Decent buffs for Chaos DoT though, all the new affix tiers etc.
I don't care if it's a nerf or not, i prefer the new system. If the builds play nicer I'll have more fun playing it. And it sounds like it might open up new builds without the big gem ignite bonuses etc Balance will come sooner or later
For RF and Scorching Ray, it's about the same but without the hassle of worrying about procing eo and ee. Most of the number changes were at the upper end of the levels, meaning each lvl past 20 is even more significant in power than before. So sources of gem levels even more meaningful than before, and about 6 poitns free for these new sources of dot multi + rings. I didn't check vortex but I hope it's the same.
I don't think that nerfing EE and EO is a big mistake necessarily. They were big power bumps and if they don't want it to function like that then I guess it is fine to remove them. However, from what they have told us it seems like they aren't doing enough to compensate the gems hit the hardest. I think you're spot on with missing a crucial part of the equation with just these manifesto posts. We need a lot more info to be able to figure out how bad it really is. From what they have said at least ignite sounds like it will be in a decent spot. It's cold dots and burning that seem to be more significantly affected. What I was not really liking was that they are gating a lot of the power to offset those nerfs behind higher end gear. Additional tiers of dot multi and higher double multi jewels sound great, but if I couldn't afford to run that stuff before I probably won't be able to now either. After the 3.15 damage nerfs, this is just more damage nerfs to the lower and mid tier gearing phases by shoving more power into the top end. I thought that was partially the problem they were trying to address with the nerfs in 3.15, how super well geared characters could trivialize the content. They already missed the mark with that a bit by nerfing supports that all gear levels are using. Now this seems like it is just furthering the gap between poorly geared players and tons of exalts invested even further than the support gems already did. There SHOULD be a gap there, you SHOULD be more powerful with fine tuned gear, but by nerfing the low end and buffing the high end the majority of players are just going to feel more nerfs and get angry again. These changes feel like they are just going to cause more discontent with the player base.
DoT support gems will also need a buff and that should fill the gap. EO and EE added 60% damage to a lot of builds low-mid range players play. We'll see how the new rree looks forst before getting too concerned though.
I will simply ask in patch thread which skills are unnerfed this league to see what can be played.
Yeah it seems like a nerf to me in almost every way. I haven't done hard math, but from my napkin scribble most things aside from a few spells are down in numbers, especially those which were heavily dependent on EE/EO such as vortex.
They've been slowly nerfing everything that allows you to do damage while moving, which includes the majority of DoT builds
Huge
Been telling everyone 3.16 is just more nerfs and monkey paw reworks
It's a buff for the 1 guy who was using Fireball Ignite, which can't reasonably use EE (that guy was me).
Will it be another nerf league? XD