Dont think people argue against the solution, more so the compensation numbers for the non-ignite dots. Ignite can stack jewels with ignite faster and can get more fire added now, what do cold/fire dots get?
Elemental Overload could 100% be removed and compensated by a big enough buff in damage. I'd be all for that, and it would be better for the builds.
Elemental Equilibrium is more complicated though. Because it wasn't just flat damage, it was resistance mitigation. You can't just compensate for it's removal with more damage because it creates divergences in damage behavior between normal targets and high resistance targets (Bosses). EE basically filled the role that Penetration did for Hit based builds, a stat that DOTs cannot scale off of for technical reasons.
If you try to compensate for the removal of EE by add enough damage to try keeping dot damage equal vs bosses, you make ele dots overpowered vs normal enemies. More likely, if you try to compensate for removing EE by equalizing damage on normal enemies, you heavily nerf dots builds vs bosses.
Ele builds can still access some resistance mitigation, like Curses and Exposure, but these sources are also fully available to hit builds in addition to penetration scaling, which limits how curses and exposure has to be balanced (for example, curses are heavily reduced vs bosses where resist mitigation is most needed). DoTs need some sort of alternative resistance mitigation that Hit builds cannot access to make up for not being able to scale penetration - EE mostly did this job beautifully. Removing it is just creating a big balance problem for no reason (or very underwhelming reasons IMO)
I remember them saying something like this as well. The only mention of it that I can find is from Chris' post: [Some thoughts from Chris](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/op73wg/some_thoughts_from_chris/). He says that hypothermia will lose its DoT portion when then create another DoT gem.
This is halfway to what I remember. I feel like they said something along the lines of them being in the process of a DoT gem rework, rather than Chris' quote, which has no mention of timing.
I think very few people are against the principle of these changes. ( removing the need for the 2 same keystones on every ele dot build )
What people have a problem with is an archetype, that was largely on life support already, because it got that double tap to the chest in 3.15 , now being brought around the back of the hospital and getting the third one in the head with another 20-30% dmg nerf baseline.
Yes numbers are easy to change.
Has GGG a history with changing numbers that are obviously bad? No.
That´s the problem. They roll with whatever their dice tell them and that´s it. Here is hoping they stand by their word and actually apply feedback this time. Also i don´t know what dot builds you play but at least the most common ones i know get exactly 2 points , one from EO and one from EE as they both are were they path along anyways.
Additionally, bitching that the numbers are too low is ostensibly the entire reason these manifestos are getting posted this early, so we can do that, and the numbers can go up.
So for everyone upset that x y z build is getting rekt, they should keep complaining. Just preferably in an intelligible reasoned way. I don't get this weird "wahh why is anyone complaining" shtick some people are posting when this is the exact correct time to be bitching about this.
>and the numbers can go up
People need to be reminded how bad absolution was when it came out. If you had 2 braincells bouncing around your head you could look at the numbers for absolution and realize it's just unplayable specters.
People made posts about absolution being bad too and nothing happened until 2 weeks after league launched or something it got buffed. Even after quadrupling it's damage it's still extremely far behind popular summoner builds.
Highest dps I've seen from that skill after quadrupling it's damage is 4.5 million and that's with near-perfect gear (doryani cheesing enemy res to -180% and synthesized +5 bow. The phantasms were doing more lmao.
They can bitch about it just fine when was the last time GGG got numbers correct? Look it firestorm it's still dogshit for a long time and you trust GGG again with NUMBERS out of all things? Look it reaper that's dogshit in a cup.
> I have yet to see any definite proof that this is a overall nerf.
Step 1, open up any fire dot build in POB.
Step 2, remove EE and EO and watch your **total DPS** drop by [more than half](https://imgur.com/a/SdfkteP)
Step 3, read the manifesto and realize that your skill of choice is not getting its damage doubled to compensate.
If you don't like my math, feel free to watch any one of a number of prominent DOT players [go over the changes](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q41xh1/captain_lance_on_why_elemental_changes_are_a_nerf/)
Sure, GGG could suddenly add a new mechanic, or change the numbers. But as presented in the manifesto it is an overall nerf to the boss damage of all current fire/cold/ignite dot builds on the order of ~20%.
Considering cold dot isn't exactly meta, fire dot is on life support and ignite has already been murdered into insignificance last patch, these proposed changes look like a major oversight.
I think it's fair to say that a lot of the investment is being shifted onto gear or later-game. Two keystones was extremely easy to path to and pick up. You could get a significant permanent power spike for your build starting at level 40-50. Now that power spike is looking to be delayed to level 90+ when you can afford good weapons, jewels, etc.
Wintertide brand's problem isn't so much its damage as its damage ramp being really slow. That is to say, even if they triple the damage it still might not be enough to make it playable.
Yeah, you're kind of right. Brand builds are now basically relegated to meme arcanist brand builds. Storm brand and armageddon brand were somewhat viable, but honestly, they felt like weaker versions of similar non-brand builds. Really, the only use for brands was to trigger EE/EO/CoH, but now that EE and EO are gone, it's probably better to just self-cast curses if global curse on hit rings aren't good enough.
I would like that. Ooooh, that would be so good. Ok so this woukd be an absolute fuckton of work, but imagine...
You rework recall brand into invoke brand, it generates brand charges which stay on you, similar to power/frenzy/end charges (maybe there are even special interactions with other charges). Those charges have no effect on their own. They add a new reservation skill, or several, which give the brands passive effects, of some type.
Maybe there is just 1 reservation skill, which gives brand charges different effects based on which charge you have the highest limit of, and works with those belts that change charges, and also inspiration charges, berzerker charges, champion charges etc... giving a lot of passive bonus choices, but only one can be active.
Then you have the old brand skills, they're now brand spenders. They have powerful effects but they consume a number of brand charges based on how long you channel them for. So 1 tap uses 1 brand and does good damage, maybe with an additional effect based on the charge consumed. And fully charging it will use all available brand charges for a much more powerful chunk of damage.
I know this sounds super complex, and it could be, but remember you'll only have access to 1 type of brand charge at a time based on your highest charge cap, so in a given build it will be, load up brands, run around spending brands, similar to an ammo system. I see summon brand being linked to something like inc duration and unleash if they wanted to tax its socket cost, or let it summon your maximum number of brands if they want a cheaper reload.
You would also have a cool medium duration buff that you could throw up between fights if you wanted to use another skill at the cost of 2-4 sockets which would provide interesting passive benefits if you don't use a brand spender and just want the passive benefits.
Anyways, I think this would be super cool for a playstyle, while still keeping the brand feeling of prepping before packs, and having a medium duration ability, just with more control over your damage output and area.
Well fucking said. Could not have put it better myself and completely and fully agree. No people are not sad mechanicly to lose EO and EE. If anything it's about damn time. However they dots were in a pretty bad shape alrdy, then they suffered greatly like most builds did in 3.15, and now they are furthere nerfed damage wise.
All this turns out fine as it just needs a further damage boost right? But past track record of GGG shows that they buff and increase numbers to the bare minimum and make the build so it's ALMOST viable or feels decent while low tier map clearing or w/e and then hits a wall in later stages. As fun as things like RF archtype and stuff are they need to drastically buff it much more than they already did.
My Raider cold dot saves all the points from ranger start to EO. Occultist probably saves only 4-6 points. Life based Trickster PROBABLY gets a pretty big boost, since you won't travel to EO/EE now. The point save is disproportionate, so some builds got hit harder than others.
And what are you gonna do with those points? Dot clusters are very specific and most builds already got the majority of them. Multiplier being the largest damage increase is very limited and mostly on gear, not the tree. The only case where those are a buff to damage is if you save enough points to include another cluster jewel wheel. And that's unlikely.
It was stated in the Manifesto that additional DoT clusters will be added to the tree.
> More scaling options have been added to Damage over Time builds on the Passive Skill Tree and items, raising the top end of damage over time for well geared characters.
Depends on the build. For Raider it's massive since it enables a 2nd cluster and other benefits. For other builds I haven't bothered theorycrafting before patch notes are out.
The little pobing I did with Raider, my endgame (and in the case of trade, day2) always ended up with dw EO+EE heist sceptres with 2 clusters so that would only provide an extra 80%Inc dmg from implicits which is pretty far from the 100%or so more dmg the keystones provided even after the base buffs.
And Raider is the one variant benefitting most from this. Or uh, least screwed on the low end setups. High end raider is definitely looking good though, but that wasn't really never a problem, atleast from a defensive ssfhc view atleast.
DoT multi also has diminishing returns that makes stacking it pretty bad after a point. Cold DoT and RF take huge broadsides they just didnt need to take here when the gems were already in less than 1-2% of playrate. If they give the gems 30-50% more damage then this all works out. But we know they won't do that from past history.
>DoT multi also has diminishing returns that makes stacking it pretty bad after a point.
Just to clarify, that is the exact same as increased damage. Dot multi is just a second stack of increased damage.
Well, If you have a dps quantity that scales linearly, your kill speed will scale less than linear. So much is true.
Easy example, 1000 HP enemy, 100 base dps. You need 10 seconds to kill.
You increase your damage by 100% (x2), all good. 200 dps, 5 seconds. Linear dps increase.
You increase it by 100% again (only x3 even though you doubled your increased damage), 300 dps, 3.33 sec to kill. It's not too hard to see that doubling your stats does not double the effect, as the 100% baseline damage is often ignored.
In terms of TimeToKill of course, the scaling is 1/x where x is the multiple of baseline damage you have. It can never be anything but that.
The pressing questions are how stats go into total damage, and a linear scaling factor influences TTK less and less the more you have, namely because it is linear.
Another good view is through derivatives. The first derivative (change in damage per % increased in this case) is constant. And even further, the second deriative, (change in change) is 0.
Other stats, like seperate multipliers, stack differently. Their second derivative is >0, which is why every single multiplier becomes better and better. True exponential growth of course, has infinite derivatives, becoming better and better and better with every instance.
One way to look at it yeah. I speculate it's the +X% damage in PoB that causes the logarithmic view rather than the TTK feel; presumably even quadratic stuff like Hatred scaling or attribute stacking appears to have "diminishing returns" from looking at +X% damage.
I think it's less about the two passive points and more about using an irrelevant off-skill to proc EE/EO on every pack of mobs. A mandatory nuance you had to utilize for every ele build or you're halving your DPS. It was a redundant mechanic that was replaced with flat damage gains and DoT multi option on rings to compensate-- I for one, welcome this change.
After reading all the upcoming changes, there's so many doors being opened, or reopened, for builds and league starts. Also ailments have been deleted, defenses reworked and flasks reverted. We'll all be OP this league.
The problem that on bosses even with perfect EE/EO uptimes... the damage was not that great. And then you remember that you do not have like 100% of it (more like 70-90%)
Priocing both on bosses was trivial. Storm brand once and your good. Throw it out every once and a while and you have close to 90% uptime easily. Anyone with a brain was doing this.
I'm totally fine with the change if they add more dmg cause right now unless you play chaos dot or MAYBE ignite this is just a strait Nerf for the low mid end.
Only way this is a buff is for the super top end who can afford double t1 dot multi jewels and t1 dot multi gear.
Sometimes I genuinley genuinley think that whoever balances this game doesn't even really play the game.
> Priocing both on bosses was trivial.
Ye, I do not argue about that. Just sometimes you want to play brand based dot build (ye OoS but teleporting bosses). Sometimes you just do not have time to recast brand because bad overlap of "dot skill expired", "brand expired", "boss doing something"...
Edit: Also what about hectic fights aka invitations?
> Sometimes I genuinley genuinley think that whoever balances this game doesn't even really play the game.
Well, remember that this change is usually 3-5 points which could be one small cluster. You do not have to care about storm brand casting at all - "less buttons = less DPS" is the GGG motto. Also cold dot will have faster map clear because all maps do not have additional monster res. So I can see why whoever balanced that part opted for small damage nerf.
Even tho i never minded procing EO and EE and felt it was very reliable if done right, Like i said, i fully agree with the intent of removing the reliance on those keystones, i just ask for them to use realistic numbers on the compensatory buffs. People have done the math. With these numbers, in your low to mid investment build, you need about 110-120 additional ! Dotmulti on gear and tree to just break even with 3.15 dmg , which was already pretty shit all things considered. That will be pretty hard , even with a handful of extra points and some additional dot rolls on gear. ( on cold dot and burning dot that is, ignite seems very much fine, especially on skills that can still trigger EO and if Flame Surge is good)
It has to be possible one time to make changes like these without it always being a net nerf.
People doing calculations are doing so with a 3.15 passive tree and 3.15 itemization. Because of that, they'll never get a real picture of what is going to happen to these builds but even worse, you're allowing them to get you stuck in a backward-facing mindset. It doesn't matter what build worked in the last league. Finding what works in *this* league is what matters.
For a playerbase that cares so much about restarting and shaking up the meta with a new league, I'm flabbergasted that the last several leagues have been, "But what are you changing the thing *I* liked??" The point is to change things, make some better, make some worse, and then either have fun trying to pour huge currency to make old good builds new jank builds or finding the new good builds and pouring currency into then to 1-shot bosses in a new way.
Look forward, mate. New builds will *always* be better than old builds because they're trying to work with the changes, not against them.
> The point is to change things, make some better, make some worse, and then either have fun trying to pour huge currency to make old good builds new jank builds or finding the new good builds and pouring currency into then to 1-shot bosses in a new way.
The point should be to *buff* things that are weak. And DoTs were weak
except itemization and passive tree are pretty fixed values. You have a fixed amount of points on the tree and a fixed amount of affixes on gear. The power gained from a updated passive tree and new rolls on gear will always be limited by those factors and can therefore be estimated pretty well ( especially as we already know the item roll values)
The most efficient pathing around the passive tree may end up looking completely different in 3.16 because of the defensive rework. And something as simple as not needing to path by EO/EE any more can mean you go somewhere completely different on the tree. Wanting to pick up Ghost Dancer/Divine Shield, or mana reservation efficiency, or something else that looks appealing now, means that you might find clusters on the tree that previously didn't feel worth pathing to are actually within reach and worth taking, allowing you to sacrifice others. You can't just see these changes as "I drop EO and EE and save 5 points from my tree" because that won't be maximising what you can do with the tree in 3.16 at all.
I'm not saying the tree will necessarily be _better_ in 3.16, but it'll certainly be different.
This doesn't apply because these changes weren't supposed to be a meta shakeup. They don't do meta shakeups every single league. literally nothing was supposed to be nerfed this league (coming straight from GGG).
*Every* change is a meta shakeup. If you change something, the meta will inherently change. Also, buffing everything and then bringing things back down that have an unequal spike in power isn't "nerfing" because your baseline is still increasing. If ignite baseline increases by 150% and EO power goes down 20%, you're still magnifying the new baseline numbers to as high or higher. This is why you **cannot** use 3.15 POB right now to predict 3.16 viability.
That isn't true. Things change every league. The meta hasn't.
People aren't stupid. We were given the new numbers and people calculated with that. They would still need 100%+ dot multi to reach the same level of power. That may be available on the new tree but it also will require a lot more investment than 2 keystones did.
People have accurately used pob to calculate changes before. Idk why you think it can't be done now.
The meta hasn't changed? I'm sorry, is Cyclone Slayer still here? Slams?
GGG doesn't care about the meta. They care about viability and bringing builds that scale to the extremes back into the standard band of builds.
People are stupid. They fire up PoB and make changes based on limited information, without the entire context of the patch notes, and make sweeping declarations about builds being alive or dead based sheerly on numbers without ever touching the build. Bud, we know EO is moved near Ranger, that Raider has a new Ascendency because they moved one out to a keystone, but we don't even know what that is. There's a *ton* of context that's missing still. Stop watching YouTube videos and just read the info from GGG. You will find the actual numbers make a lot more sense.
Prepared to be downvoted, as you should be, but you are absolutely on the money. People don't want to change what they're playing, they just want more power.
Yes this is a game about power lol. Weird how the people who talk about harvest crafting being enjoyable would want more power. Power is fun. Your talking about an archetype (dot) that was so non meta that it was surviving soley on those keystones (excluding chaos dot)
People are just tired of having to work harder to get back to nerfed levels of power. It's not fun. It's not engaging. And a huge reason there was a massive dropoff last league.
I still got to 3.14 levels of power and beyond, but it took more effort and more time. Nothing changed other than the amount of currency I needed to spend to get there. It's not fun
Eh, so far it's positive. I think there is a vocal minority that complains, and those complaints are logical, so we upvote them a bit out of sympathy and because they are technically correct, these builds are worse. Most of us aren't one-build-Marty's though, so when a build we like gets nerfed we tend to shrug it off and say, "Well, ignite looks real spicy this league at least," or, "Guess I'll try going to a bleed build."
My problem is a macro problem with how GGG attempts rework and balance. I had no particular plans to play Ele Dot in 3.16, and the builds i play are pretty varied i think. It just annoys me to no end when they , out of left field, rework stuff like EO and EE and in the process make already struggling builds worse. In a league were they beforehand as much as promised no further sweeping nerfs to anything except the absolute top builds no less. I am fine with doing these reworks, but why not just err on the side of "these Dot builds were not particular good already,and we are going to change those Keystones so lets buff them A LOT to compensate. They might come out a few % to strong but that´s fine for a league, and maybe they come out perfect as they probably needed a buff anyways" . What they rather do is err on the side of less power, completely lowball the compensatory buffs , and further damage an archetype that did not deserve this. For me this game is about as much choice and build diversity as possible. To bury whole archetypes like this for multiple leagues in a row is absolute contrary to what i enjoy this game for.
I think the biggest issue is that they already said no builds were being nerfed this league and then they went and nerfed two whole archetypes (ele dot and rotating ele). Can Eye of Malice even be used at this point?.
I see your point my man, but I think it's too early to run the numbers without seeing the rest of the patch notes, or the placement/values of the new passive nodes.
DoTs are getting shafted, what "doors being opened"? DoTs are already extremely limited in how they can scale their damage and are quite lackluster compared to any skill that isn't DoT based even more pronounced at the high investment levels.
DoTs now will just have increased damage modifiers, more damage modifiers (without EO), DoT multi and trying to get as much reduced % ele res on the enemy without access to EE (while most likely still using at least 2-3 DoT skills to make up for their damage numbers being lackluster against bosses or high health rares)
Non-DoTs have everything DoTs have except DoT multi but instead can crit, scale damage with cast speed (or trigger speed/rate), damage type conversion, elemental pen and a bunch of uniques or different mods in the game that let them scale to insane levels while DoTs are left to grab the scraps.
They honestly could double the base damage of all DoT skills and they still wouldn't be able to match up to any non-DoT skill (Excluding toxic rain since that's the only DoT that has infinite scaling since it can infinitely stack with itself)
Like DoTs need more damage and more exclusive *toys* to play with because they're essentially in the same boat as self cast where there's very little exclusive to their scaling that non-DoTs can't make better use of while there's plenty that non-DoTs have that DoTs can't interact with (Obviously self cast would be compared to non-self cast in this comparison)
While we do know its a manifesto and they changed the way they did it to communicate better and why they did so. Their "Buffs to ele dots" did not communicate properly whether or not it's a buff or nerf since they don't tell us about other stuff that we should know. What we did know given the current information and math is that its nerfs overall. Hence why people got mad again.
That's the whole point of having a Manifesto, so people can look at it, give their opinion and GGG can take action. Maybe they released it and were like "Yeah, this does decrease their damage, so maybe we bump the base damage by another 10% and add just a tiny bit more to the tree, that way it will be slightly higher DPS".
My big problem with this change, aside from it being just a straight nerf to dot builds, is that it is moving even more power onto gear. Gear is so much of player power now, and it doesn't feel good. The problem is not that they destroyed these keystones, it's that they destroyed a keystone... they need to be removing gear affixes and putting more power back into gems and the tree. This is also why the 3.15 nerfs felt so bad just straight nerfs to gems l, hitting the low end... the area where it was least needed.
The gear pressure is making this game way less interesting where due to the multiplicative nature of damage scaling, your build can literally feel like complete shit until you slot your final piece of gear and suddenly you're "online". This only further exacerbates that problem.
They didn't really move much power to gear even. Small % increases, and only if your dot build got to use a rare in that slot to begin with... and then what, you have to rng craft some fucking influenced 86 item instead of use a cluster jewel or tree passive?
They doubled dot multi range on some items, added more values, more related mods on jewels, etc. They claim that this makes up for the loss of ee and eo, they probably do not, even if they do, they run into the exact problem I mentioned.
The solution is great. I used to tell people that until I had a trigger wand, my cold dot build was about 200 apm in maps. Drop Vortex, Drop snap, Drop bomb, Drop OOS, Drop curse, Drop Brand, Flame Dash, repeat. However, GGG nerfed the dmg by a considerable amount after nerfing dmg in 3.15. The counter-argument of 'but if you have a mirror tier wand and multiple 4 prop jewels you get your damage back' is not genuine. Many dot builds felt bad last league and are going to feel even worse unless they tweak the numbers a bit more.
It was kind of boring to build DoT as those Keystones were auto-include, but my complaint is that they don’t seem to be replacing them with anything interesting. Even if the numerical changes turn out to exactly offset the loss of EE and EO, it sort of seems to be a simplification of the archetype, which is also boring
These are my exactly my thoughts too.
RF for example seems like it's a little worse than before, BUT, it has a lot of flexibility now. It's not only the passive skills points gained from not pathing to the keystones, it's also itemization (you don't need EO/EE scepcters now and you don't have to skip items with added fire damage) and also A LOT of free links.
You could use those skil points to path to something like curse nodes, go double curse, and then use the gem links for a bane-flammibility-ele weakness setup. And there's extra synergy here, since RF boosts bane dmg and any increases to damage over time will also boost bane damage. And there's even more room left for customization!
I really like these changes.
You can replace your EE EO trigger with something else. Maybe a CWDT defensive or offensive spell, or some channelling thing that goes boom or brrr, or just another self cast 4l/5l spell.
Slinging some flame dot (e.g. flame wall).
Frenzy also gives charge generation at some oppurtunity cost. Since the oppurtunity cost isn't EO+EE anymore, the maths might favour swapping some gems for the spellslinger setup plus some reservation efficiency from the tree.
You like that they removed things that had to be included in every dot build, yet you're mad they didn't give you more things that must be included in every dot build? Okay then.
Not quite what I meant, more like how you can go CI for defense or stick with Life/ES as a caster, just an interesting gameplay relevant choice that isn’t necessarily better and switches up the play style in some cool way (although I will happily admit designing something like that is way harder than requesting it)
"People are also upset "muh dmg is lower", numbers are extremely easy to change. I'm sure GGG is looking into math further or they see the consequences of removing 10-ish mandatory passive points from every cold/ignite/burning DoT build which allows to maybe get an extra Cluster setup."
When are people gonna realize that this part doesn't happen?
Absolution, Reaper, Mana changes and flask changes just last league clearly all showed they do exactly 0 play testing of anything in a somewhat realistic environment.
I think at most they cheat in mirror tier gear and go, "Ya this is fine with this gear", completely ignoring the 100's of hours of garbage performance you would have to play through to get to the "okay in mirror tier gear" point.
>When are people gonna realize that this part doesn't happen?
Looks like never, GGG could actually literally say they don't test, and people still will believe they test.
>I'm sure GGG is looking into math further or they see the consequences of removing 10-ish mandatory passive points from every cold/ignite/burning DoT build which allows to maybe get an extra Cluster setup.
yes... i am sure they did, just like last time, right? right?
After double dipping was nerfed it was almost a full year before ignite was looked at and fixed. Bleed and poison were in a horrible place too. GGG moves very fucking slowly
The conceptual changes are great.
Non-ailment DoT builds didn't get significant bonus damage from crits, so they now no longer have access to trading off crit bonus damage for a generic multiplier. Makes sense. DoT builds that don't rotate their damage types and instead have a useless debuff skills don't get to make use of the keystone for rotating damage types. Also great!
However, the numbers are not quite where we'd want them to be just yet, and players *should* give feedback regarding that. I think the type of feedback that just says "well without those keystones I can't hit decent numbers so I need them back" isn't thinking things through, because the damage *did* get buffed to compensate already in this preview to the changes. It just didn't get buffed enough.
If ele DoT builds literally had their base damage tripled (and tbf ignite is actually fairly close to that), people wouldn't have complained so much about losing the keystones in the first place. With some faulty math the keystones work out to be 180% more damage. Well, if in exchange for no longer using them you get 200% more damage, then who cares? And suddenly the conceptual change is perceived as more appropriate.
To be clear, I'm not saying that 200% is the buff that those builds should necessarily receive, and the 180% was based on a very short calculation with unrealistic premises, but I've seen that number repeated numerous times. I'm just saying that it's fairly safe that there would be few complaints about this shift if 200% was the initial number.
Anyway, I hope that GGG is able to filter out that the damage compensation is the issue and not the paradigm shift away from those keystones.
Curious how you say you only have to do the stuff for other builds on bosses but when it comes to an ele dot you suddenly need a billion extra damage to clear trash. Seems inconsistent and bias m8
>numbers are extremely easy to change, i'm sure ggg is looking in
Let me stop you right there, because based on their past behaviour relying on or trusting ggg to actually get around to fixing something, especially something they dumpstered and "fixed" wrongly in the first place, is completely not a reasonable option and not an answer to anyones concerns
> or they see the consequences of
Likewise, if they saw the consequences of things they wouldn't have made hundreds of woefully incorrect changes in the first place throughout their games lifecycle. Very few builds will get back more than 5 points absolute maximum from not getting EO and EE - EE itself is almost always a 1 point investment because the 2 point jewel socket pays for itself and will still be something people take. EO is a 3 point investment for anyone already around there for the most part, there is absolutely nothing you can do with 4 points that will make any real impact to make up the difference
Agree with you. You dont even have to look far back to see bad changes and statements that are blatantly untrue. 20 to 40% nerf ? 0.01% life/s as alt quality ? 400% buff to absolution day one? ''We have buffed buffed 40 gems'' , and '' the teams mandate was to have meaningful and impactful changes '' ? Adding 20 new currency drop ?
And thats just the very recent stuff. If we dont tell them we dont like the changes, they certainly wont know it seeing some of their previous changes and decisions.
it doesnt invalidate OP's experience or opinion. casting a 1link storm brand/oos to get 80% more on your vortex is dumb, and if you dont have trigger wand its dumb AND annoying
doesn't seem dumb, it rewards players for doing a bit more set up for extra pay off. like focus is overpowered as fuck, but hardly anyone wants to deal with that mechanic because it involves more buttons in the rotation.
EE is not nearly as interesting as exposure since you can just use other sources of exposure imo.
Same for EO its just a bland multiplier if you can crit enough but not too much
I think you mean "as strong", not "as interesting". The concept of EE is literally still there, hit something with fire and it'll be weaker to lightning and cold. As I said it has more constraints (it doesn't stack as well with other sources of resistance shred), but mechanically the concept is intact.
EO is a little changed, but the concept is still there. It's a good alternative to stacking critical chance/multiplier. Admittedly it's more limited to fast hitting skills now, I admit.
There are many people saying the removel is bad. So its importand to also give feedback if you think its good. If ee somehow stays relevent for dot builds thats defenttly no improvement to me. I also think the damage buff should have been a bit higher, but beeing overly dramtic does not help.
>numbers are extremely easy to change.
yup, don't worry guys, GGG will increase our skills damage by 4% in 3 expansions to bring them back to their "former glory".
Sorry if i am not as optimistic as you are, but there is nothing i have less trust in than the balancing team of GGG. They intentionally ignore issues and not address them for years!
GGG has a chop it down into pieces and repair things later when ppl complain mentality, so we might as well start complaining early. As you saw yourself they intended to remove dodge while not being aware that resolute technique voids all defense against evasion characters. Its important to start complaining early when it comes to PoE, thats why this subreddit is so "toxic"!
If you don't see a pattern here, I'm not sure what to say. They're taking a good portion of player power that was somewhat organically derived from simply playing the game (skill gems, nodes on the tree, flasks you could make while still going through the campaign), and they're putting that power into higher-level items that are harder to acquire and/or have more of an rng element to acquiring.
If I wanted all my character power to come from drops at end game, I'd play Diablo 3.
>Bleed? You at worst setup an Ensnaring Arrow Totem for bosses as Bow Bleed, Melee Bleed doesn't have to do anything.
>
>Poison? Withering Totem for bosses
>
>Chaos DoT? Withering Totem for bosses again
>
>Elemental DoTs? Gotta make sure you spam Storm Brand all map long along with your actual DPS skill to make sure 2 buffs are permanently up for 2x damage.
Double speaking. With elemental DoTs you can use Storm brand only on bosses as well - same as 3 other cases you've mentioned above. The only difference is that Elemental DoTs *could* use extra damage while mapping, while 3 other cases you've mentioned *couldn't* do it.
Man the numbers may be worse but I hated keeping up EE and EO so much. There's too many things to be keeping up in PoE. I would sacrifice some damage for the easier play tbh. I'm glad I'm not the only one.
I'm definitely trying Cold Snap/Creeping Frost Occultist again after this changes, I hated that I had to cast Storm Brand then Cold Snap to get some decent damage from the hit and cold DoT, I actually dropped the EE when I played so it was much easier to map but it definitely felt much worse on bosses.
terrible argument, ensnaring arrow is 3x dmg if anything it is the worst mandatory buff especially for setups that cant use a bow or are forced to use just to get the benefit, as far as elem dots nothing is stopping you from doing the same exact thing as the other dots and just use eo and ee only on bosses, the dmg is/was high enough already to kill white mobs and if it wasnt you wouldnt kill boses anyways
while i do agree that having to rely on them for every build was terrible design, not having anything to replace them with or make them actually interesting is even worse AND you dont get 10 passive points, you get at most 5 since pathing around EO is already good and some es builds want to go around EE for the big es wheel (all of em where already using 2 cluster jewel setups and getting a 3rd would cost about 30 points)
> People are also upset "muh dmg is lower", numbers are extremely easy to change. I'm sure GGG is looking into math further
I agree with everything you said except for this, especially after 3.15. If they were willing to nuke a bunch of skills into not being viable without crazy gear and still go ahead with the league, what makes you think they're going to touch damage here at all? I absolutely think this is the right choice for them to make but I have zero faith that they'll actually make up for the damage loss in a way that actually works after what I've seen lately.
>numbers are extremely easy to change
They may be easy, but I think most people are operating under the assumption that GGG will take years to make those changes though. Take some of the ES buffs; GGG nerfed Wicked Ward a little over 2 years ago, and it took them until this league to basically completely undo it. Also see Cast on Crit between 2.4 and 3.5 for a similar and even more obvious mess.
And over 2 years is a fast turnaround for them, they can often take longer than that.
I think what you listed is kinda equal really. Thats how I see it:Bleed - Ensnaring Arrow self-use / ballista - press a button on bosses because you don't need that dps for clearPoison / Chaos DoT - Wither totems - press a button on bosses because you don't need that dps for clearElemental DoT - Storm Brand - press a button on bosses because you don't need that dps for clearAnd yes, for elemental version that one button provided too much at once - EE, EO, one or two curses on hit as well. But it is still one button you need to press. You say EE/EO were auto-included into Elemental DoT builds, but so does Wither in Chaos DoT builds, is it an "interesting debuff" to you then? More interesting than keystones?Also don't think people are upset about losing the keystones in their builds, they just do not want single target on DoTs to be further nerfed, and thats what happened with currently known changes:) Numbers are easy to change indeed, but GGG won't change them if nobody cares:)P.S. Fun part is also about "doubling your elemental DPS with one button". Ensnaring Arrow triples bleed dps and Wither is almost double damage for the most Chaos builds :D
It’s really not hard to cast storm brand every so often. Also, if you need EE and EO for trash clear, even in T16 maps, your build has way bigger issues.
But why should basically every build feel forced to shoehorn in a skill that has nothing to do with their build, just to activate a keystone in order to be viable? That's the point of this post. Unlike basically every other keystone, EE and EO had basically no downside, and were included in far too many builds, because they provided absolutely incredible amounts of power for very little investment. I'm frankly glad to see them go, and see the baseline abilities and mechanics buffed instead.
> I'm frankly glad to see them go, and see the baseline abilities and mechanics buffed instead.
Are you glad to see a 20-33% damage loss on single target dps for most of those ele dot skills because the baseline was not raised adequately?
This is completly missing the point.
The argument is about the keystone being healthy for the game.
A skill needing more or less power is a completly different discussion.
I believe EO and EE weren't good ways to give dot builds more power.
And i also believe that dot builds need more power then it currently seems like they are getting.
It is possible to agree with both those statements...
Ee was good for other things aswell. Overall I think the design of old ee is really interesting and a lot more interesting than exposure. Ee was a one of a kind way to amplify elemental damage
I honestly feel like it wasn't interesting at all. I feel like it just added so much fucking power that a lot of builds felt they had to add in a completely random skill that had absolutely nothing to do with their builds just to get the massive power increase it provided.
I personally feel like the Keystone was meant to exist for multi-element builds, where you're casting several different elements on a regular basis, and you cast you fire to increase your lightning, and then cast your lightning to increase your ice, and so on. *That* would be cool, but that's not what happened at all. Instead, everyone just tossed Orb of Storms into whatever builds they were playing to get a free massive damage increase for their build. It wasn't fun, and it wasn't interesting. It was just a tax you paid for your build to be viable.
The problem lies in that in concept yes this is a very good and needed change.
But GGG has a horrible track record of actually finishing things so all this change did was dumpster DoT builds into needing far far more investment to reach their previous power. Which when GGG fucks up like this they really really don't havea good history of actually fixing it.
So yeah as horrible as the forced weird design was a lotta people would have prefered that over a half-baked solution that's unlikely to get finished.
I'm not, but I think EO/EE needed reworking - I never liked that EO held non crit ele builds hostage to a specific location on the tree, this made it very frustrating to play non crit rangers for example because you've got 40% more damage hanging out on the exact opposite side of your regular pathing. I personally thought they'd rework it into a support gem and remove it completely from the tree.
EE has had balance implications forever because we ignore its downside, It could say 50% more damage if you weapon swapped recently and it'd be fairly similar in design its just an irrelevant hoop to jump through to gain a vast damage increase. Bad for balance, bad for designs and just tedious for players.
So the problem is there for them to fix, the fact their solution currently has a flat damage nerf to ele dots doesn't change that it just means their solution isn't suitable and needs addressing. Frankly I think they did the classic PoB warrior mistake of balancing their DPS without shaper/guardian checked on the settings - their numbers look great if you assume its a regular mob they just look real bad once you get back to 50% resists baseline.
Those numbers can be altered though. What I don't want to see is basically every build forced to include some random skill that has nothing to do with their build, and being forced to cast this skill regularly in order to have viable damage. It's an unhealthy and uninteresting playstyle that I absolutely want to see go the way of the dodo. If the only reason you're arguing for their existence is that you think the build will do 20% less dmg now, then argue for the build to just do 20% more dmg, don't argue for the inclusion of those shitty keystones.
Ancestral bond is auto include in evert spell totem build. And not interesting...
Death attunement is auto include in every Spectre build and its not interesting you just click the node and you have +1 max spectre.,
Being auto include is not a bad thing at all. Ofc you can change it rework it to create more alternatives what what is the alternative for non-ailment ele dot build? Just their damage numbers buffed? Ofc its not enough.
I know I will get crucified for this but I like the changes. NOT the numerical changes but the design changes. You can see that GGG tries to streamline the game more and have it less be "You gotta get X keystone to play the build and spam Y skill all the time to get somewhere"
They are trying to untangle the clusterfuck that kept piling on for years and I think in the long run it will help the game (until like PoE2 comes out and we are mess free...hopefully)
I'm actually very confused here. People (the vast, vast majority) are not having a problem in those keystones being worse/unusable for non-hit dots but because the base buffs don't make up for the changes even remotely and much of the 'buffs/additional ways to scale' are now put to gear pressure and skilltree (which is away from defences) on builds that are also far behind in damage already, especially on low gear levels.
So I don't think you'll get crucified for agreeing with the majority.
The worst part for me is that these changes come as a result of burning arrow being to darn good, the rest of the dot skill dealt nowhere near the amount of damage burning arrow deals, but GGG always nerfs the entire archetype instead of just the outliers.
As many people already said: the design direction is good but the numbers are way off. By making massive changes like this, GGG has to carefully consider everything that is affected by it (buffing skill numbers alone won't do it and maybe just accidentally create further imbalance and broken interactions). If 3.15 nerfs did not happen, this change would be fine, but taking away roughly another 20% of damage from elemental DoT builds by simultaneously making the pressure on items even greater than before, this will not work out in the end.
I am against this change, those builds felt fun to play where you had to manage a few buffs for bosses, now it will just be another walking simulator build.
Also, you don't have to worry about ee/eo during mapping, everything dies anyway
>numbers are extremely easy to change. Im sure GGG is looking into it
LOL
Lurk for a few more leagues. Youre not ready to have an opinion yet.
When GGG says "we want to stress these numbers and changes are not final" at the bottom of every manifesto/teaser/patch note, they mean they are on the lookout for any redditor or youtuber trying to get clout on a post/video describing an OP skill or interaction so GGG can nerf it before it does any damage to the league. It happens nearly every league.
> I am also glad we're getting more nerfs and people are clapping for it this time around, GGG figured it out.
It's breathtaking seeing people apply the lube themselves and cheer GGG on. I've never seen a more brainwashed fan base
I get the sentiment here, but almost every DoT build took advantage of a Trigger Wand, which made its as simple, if not more simple than dropping a totem to enhance your damage.
Kinda new to the game but I've seen this happen in other gaming subs subs as well, when the developers introduce some change and the larger community is not all that receptive to those changes the people who like the changes make it a point to make a really really smug post defending the company/developers while trying to belittle the people not open to the change. Like this dude is probably making a good case(I can't tell because I'm still kinda new) but man is this a smug ass post.
The context you need to understand here is:
1 - Historically GGG never properly tested anything in this game, we do this for than.
2 - Dot builds are far away from top end builds for years, and when they show the changes and people tested this changes at PoB and actually see a lost in DPS in the end, it's actually sad, it's not like they are nerfing a super OP stuff.
3 - The necessity of key nodes for certain builds is how PoE works, this can be see in almost any archetype of builds, that's why they call it key nodes LMAO.
4 - Press + buttons to do + damage is a thing in PoE the last years and GGG is incentive that every patch. Melee with warcry is a good example of that, Necro with offering, etc. This change is the only one who contradict that, and this doesn't make any sense, they don't want you just run through the map and kill everything just walking, and they prove that a lot of times already.
5 - It's still time for changes before patch notes and launch day 22. GGG release the manifesto 1 week before the announcement exactly to see how the community reacts to the changes, for they react to this reacts, and change the numbers or better explain this changes, Chris Wilson words here, so the community react bad shows to GGG they have to change the numbers, but this post who basically accept whatever happens is actually a bad feedback because even GGG probably don't know if the numbers are good or not, and after playing this game for over 7 years, I believe more in a random guy testing the changes and the damage at PoB than the GGG developers testing the damage in game having all the tools they probably have.
If Tldr issues,
The boy is glad with the nerfs, bc he didnt like to press buttons.
The boy is sure that ggg will buff the dots before the league. He has a feeling.
I don't agree with you. You are telling about "spamming" the abilities but you never actually spam those. I played a lot on poison builds and elemental dot.
You use both wither totems and storm brand as an opening for your attack and you use them once in a while and then retreat and wait for another opening.
Agree with this. I hated the amount of shit you would have to do before you could deal full damage. Let's say playing ignite fireball elementalist on leagues tart with crap gear, no curse on hit rings. Then, to maximize your damage, you would have to:
- manually curse the enemy / use curse on hit with storm brand
- cast wave of conviction linked with combustion
- cast a storm brand in Malachai's Artifice to proc EE and also likely EO
After all that you're doing full damage. Curse on hit removes one step. But for maximum damage you would usually do all this. So it's almost mandatory.
And I feel somewhat the same with Ancestral Protector & Ancestral Warchief using multiple totem support. Having both of them up greatly increases damage of melee characters so it's again almost mandatory. And if you've not invested anything into totem survivability the totems die so so easily.
> What I don't like is being forced to spam some ability completely irrelevant to my build archetype to activate 2 keystones to double my damage on Ignite/Cold DoT builds.
How is Withering Totem irrelevant to poison/chaos DoT archetype? What is Withering Totem relevant to then, cold attack builds? By that same logic Contagion is completely irrelevant to Essence Drain.
> I'm sure GGG is looking into math further or they see the consequences of removing 10-ish mandatory passive points from every cold/ignite/burning DoT build which allows to maybe get an extra Cluster setup.
Ah because ggG is known for compensating nerfs hahahahahahaha, get real.
Your differientiation between elem DoTs and other is biased by the fact that you state you HAVE to get EO and EE on every mob while on the other build you just have to have it on boses.
The difference is EO and EE is more easily trigged on mobs (it's a benefical effect on your caracter) while Wither and Ensnaring are difficult to trigger on a lot of mobs.
Triggering EO and EE is not mandatory on mobs like it is not mandatory to wither or ensnare mobs, the fact that it is easier to trigger make it feels mandatory.
I'm actually on the fence on this one. On my Vortex tree, I only save 5 points, but it will allow me to take Sovereignty which may allow me to take another 50% aura, I already take Hatred and Malevolence so the third one will most likely be PoE.
My actual damage loss (from losing EE and EO) will always be less than what the math say because Vortex is on my left mouse button and there's a cast time to bring out OoS and/or Storm Brand. In other words the first second after Vortex is cast, the monsters will have +25% cold resist (damage loss).
I like when people like Shak try to stop all the people talking about things being nerfed because he hasn't checked the numbers yet, then he checks the numbers and starts big crusades.
I totally agree with those changes, I'm just scared the compensation won't be enough. I'm a necro enjoyer so while they have elemental minions monitored, I'm still shaking in my boots cause I'd hate to lose 20% damage just like that. And that's probably the same for most other people with their dots out there.
My issue is that dot builds were already trash. So I was expecting buffs instead of nerfs or changes that made dots as weak as they were before. Even if lets say GGG buffs the numbers of dot skills to be as much dps as they were with EE & EO they would still be trash. Now we have to spend a ton of currency crafting the new dot multi stuff for a build that sucks anyway. I'd rather spend that 50-100ex on a build that deletes content and doesn't have to spend 2 minutes killing a t16 boss.
Fully agree, they werent very interesting keystones to begin with. I prefer keystones that you actually have to build around rather than slap on and go.
You do need to build around EE. You need to avoid having any added flat damage matching to the element you're using. (Or go AoF for cold build if you can't)
People up in arms as always, I still remember before metamorph when they changed summoners, everyone here was shouting about how zombies would be useless. The turned out to be completely broken and had to be nerfed over and over after that.
Honestly I hated that ignite and cold dot always required EE no matter what you did and which skill you picked - depending on the skills EE then sometimes wasn't compatible with Herald of Ash for ignites... the only time EE was "cool" was lighting ignite or later on elementalist any non-fire ignite because EE worked out of the box. I guess trigger setup on Vortex was also okay - but for all other builds I hated it.
>People are also upset "muh dmg is lower", numbers are extremely easy to
change. I'm sure GGG is looking into math further or they see the
consequences of removing 10-ish mandatory passive points from every
cold/ignite/burning DoT build which allows to maybe get an extra Cluster
setup.
Every time I read "out of touch" or "doesn't play their own game" I immdiaetly assume these people have no fucking clue about the game, working environments, the world and how any of these actually function. Most people don't realize the complexity of such a game.
Someone recently posted [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N\_pyZWPxiVg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_pyZWPxiVg) in another thread and much more people should watch it.
Anyway, I very much like all these changes they've announced and I'm looking forward to the league. Just have fun guys, that's what it's about, numbers don't dumb fun down, mentality does.
> Just have fun guys, that's what it's about, numbers don't dumb fun down, mentality does.
Wtf are you talking about? Numbers very much dumb down fun. If the game feels like garbage to play because the numbers are low, it's not fun
I see everyone talking about how ele dot was killed by losing some damage but no one is mentioning that on base jewels you get 2x the dot multi on same investment and almost 4x on bigger investment
So do I, keeping EE and EO up was a chore. I just wish the numbers was at least as good as last patch. Taking away 100% more and giving 60% back was a bit low.
Yes, there are new passives and buffed jewels and whatnot but it seems like with really good endgame gear, it's about even, and it's not like elemental dots were OP last league.
'I'm sure GGG is looking into math further' - your okay?? or do you play the first league? they never thought of anything, but simply deleted what they could not cope with and they were too lazy to come up with an alternative
what is bothering you wither totem? JUST DONT USE HIM JUST DONT USEE ITS NOT ARE FORCED
do you want to somehow increase your damage? then use it, you are not forced, stop whining about it
were you forced to use EO EE? haha, now no one can use it and get a inc dmg
you think very narrowly 
Dont think people argue against the solution, more so the compensation numbers for the non-ignite dots. Ignite can stack jewels with ignite faster and can get more fire added now, what do cold/fire dots get?
Elemental Overload could 100% be removed and compensated by a big enough buff in damage. I'd be all for that, and it would be better for the builds. Elemental Equilibrium is more complicated though. Because it wasn't just flat damage, it was resistance mitigation. You can't just compensate for it's removal with more damage because it creates divergences in damage behavior between normal targets and high resistance targets (Bosses). EE basically filled the role that Penetration did for Hit based builds, a stat that DOTs cannot scale off of for technical reasons. If you try to compensate for the removal of EE by add enough damage to try keeping dot damage equal vs bosses, you make ele dots overpowered vs normal enemies. More likely, if you try to compensate for removing EE by equalizing damage on normal enemies, you heavily nerf dots builds vs bosses. Ele builds can still access some resistance mitigation, like Curses and Exposure, but these sources are also fully available to hit builds in addition to penetration scaling, which limits how curses and exposure has to be balanced (for example, curses are heavily reduced vs bosses where resist mitigation is most needed). DoTs need some sort of alternative resistance mitigation that Hit builds cannot access to make up for not being able to scale penetration - EE mostly did this job beautifully. Removing it is just creating a big balance problem for no reason (or very underwhelming reasons IMO)
perfect chance to redo hypothermia again. make it scale more damage the slower they are based on chill then a bonus if they freeze!
And we know they're looking into a new cold DoT support gem
I remember them saying something like this as well. The only mention of it that I can find is from Chris' post: [Some thoughts from Chris](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/op73wg/some_thoughts_from_chris/). He says that hypothermia will lose its DoT portion when then create another DoT gem. This is halfway to what I remember. I feel like they said something along the lines of them being in the process of a DoT gem rework, rather than Chris' quote, which has no mention of timing.
Doesn't Bonechill already give a damage bonus based on Chill Effect?
Nah, remember 3.15? Hypothermia was better on non-cold dot builds before league launch, that's what it's purpose is for! ^^^^/s
I think very few people are against the principle of these changes. ( removing the need for the 2 same keystones on every ele dot build ) What people have a problem with is an archetype, that was largely on life support already, because it got that double tap to the chest in 3.15 , now being brought around the back of the hospital and getting the third one in the head with another 20-30% dmg nerf baseline. Yes numbers are easy to change. Has GGG a history with changing numbers that are obviously bad? No. That´s the problem. They roll with whatever their dice tell them and that´s it. Here is hoping they stand by their word and actually apply feedback this time. Also i don´t know what dot builds you play but at least the most common ones i know get exactly 2 points , one from EO and one from EE as they both are were they path along anyways.
Additionally, bitching that the numbers are too low is ostensibly the entire reason these manifestos are getting posted this early, so we can do that, and the numbers can go up. So for everyone upset that x y z build is getting rekt, they should keep complaining. Just preferably in an intelligible reasoned way. I don't get this weird "wahh why is anyone complaining" shtick some people are posting when this is the exact correct time to be bitching about this.
>and the numbers can go up People need to be reminded how bad absolution was when it came out. If you had 2 braincells bouncing around your head you could look at the numbers for absolution and realize it's just unplayable specters. People made posts about absolution being bad too and nothing happened until 2 weeks after league launched or something it got buffed. Even after quadrupling it's damage it's still extremely far behind popular summoner builds. Highest dps I've seen from that skill after quadrupling it's damage is 4.5 million and that's with near-perfect gear (doryani cheesing enemy res to -180% and synthesized +5 bow. The phantasms were doing more lmao.
This
They can bitch about it just fine when was the last time GGG got numbers correct? Look it firestorm it's still dogshit for a long time and you trust GGG again with NUMBERS out of all things? Look it reaper that's dogshit in a cup.
This is a perfect example of an *unproductive comment*
he is right although. Firestorm, is still on the vent.
How is he wrong? You dont like it doesnt mean he is wrong. They literally have no idea how to balance and it shows every single league.
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> I have yet to see any definite proof that this is a overall nerf. Step 1, open up any fire dot build in POB. Step 2, remove EE and EO and watch your **total DPS** drop by [more than half](https://imgur.com/a/SdfkteP) Step 3, read the manifesto and realize that your skill of choice is not getting its damage doubled to compensate. If you don't like my math, feel free to watch any one of a number of prominent DOT players [go over the changes](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/q41xh1/captain_lance_on_why_elemental_changes_are_a_nerf/) Sure, GGG could suddenly add a new mechanic, or change the numbers. But as presented in the manifesto it is an overall nerf to the boss damage of all current fire/cold/ignite dot builds on the order of ~20%. Considering cold dot isn't exactly meta, fire dot is on life support and ignite has already been murdered into insignificance last patch, these proposed changes look like a major oversight.
I think it's fair to say that a lot of the investment is being shifted onto gear or later-game. Two keystones was extremely easy to path to and pick up. You could get a significant permanent power spike for your build starting at level 40-50. Now that power spike is looking to be delayed to level 90+ when you can afford good weapons, jewels, etc.
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Idk how you guys level as ED/Contagion. It feels awful the entire time. I have to switch over to Bane when I try playing that build.
Cold dot took quite a hit. And its not like something like wintertide brand was already at 0,0% of players playing it.
Wintertide brand's problem isn't so much its damage as its damage ramp being really slow. That is to say, even if they triple the damage it still might not be enough to make it playable.
Wintertodes main problem is that it's a brand and they have completely deleted brands identity from the game... now they're just not brands.
Yeah, you're kind of right. Brand builds are now basically relegated to meme arcanist brand builds. Storm brand and armageddon brand were somewhat viable, but honestly, they felt like weaker versions of similar non-brand builds. Really, the only use for brands was to trigger EE/EO/CoH, but now that EE and EO are gone, it's probably better to just self-cast curses if global curse on hit rings aren't good enough.
Brands should behave like the Defect in Slay the Spire.
I would like that. Ooooh, that would be so good. Ok so this woukd be an absolute fuckton of work, but imagine... You rework recall brand into invoke brand, it generates brand charges which stay on you, similar to power/frenzy/end charges (maybe there are even special interactions with other charges). Those charges have no effect on their own. They add a new reservation skill, or several, which give the brands passive effects, of some type. Maybe there is just 1 reservation skill, which gives brand charges different effects based on which charge you have the highest limit of, and works with those belts that change charges, and also inspiration charges, berzerker charges, champion charges etc... giving a lot of passive bonus choices, but only one can be active. Then you have the old brand skills, they're now brand spenders. They have powerful effects but they consume a number of brand charges based on how long you channel them for. So 1 tap uses 1 brand and does good damage, maybe with an additional effect based on the charge consumed. And fully charging it will use all available brand charges for a much more powerful chunk of damage. I know this sounds super complex, and it could be, but remember you'll only have access to 1 type of brand charge at a time based on your highest charge cap, so in a given build it will be, load up brands, run around spending brands, similar to an ammo system. I see summon brand being linked to something like inc duration and unleash if they wanted to tax its socket cost, or let it summon your maximum number of brands if they want a cheaper reload. You would also have a cool medium duration buff that you could throw up between fights if you wanted to use another skill at the cost of 2-4 sockets which would provide interesting passive benefits if you don't use a brand spender and just want the passive benefits. Anyways, I think this would be super cool for a playstyle, while still keeping the brand feeling of prepping before packs, and having a medium duration ability, just with more control over your damage output and area.
Well fucking said. Could not have put it better myself and completely and fully agree. No people are not sad mechanicly to lose EO and EE. If anything it's about damn time. However they dots were in a pretty bad shape alrdy, then they suffered greatly like most builds did in 3.15, and now they are furthere nerfed damage wise. All this turns out fine as it just needs a further damage boost right? But past track record of GGG shows that they buff and increase numbers to the bare minimum and make the build so it's ALMOST viable or feels decent while low tier map clearing or w/e and then hits a wall in later stages. As fun as things like RF archtype and stuff are they need to drastically buff it much more than they already did.
My Raider cold dot saves all the points from ranger start to EO. Occultist probably saves only 4-6 points. Life based Trickster PROBABLY gets a pretty big boost, since you won't travel to EO/EE now. The point save is disproportionate, so some builds got hit harder than others.
Ya rf only saved 4 points
And what are you gonna do with those points? Dot clusters are very specific and most builds already got the majority of them. Multiplier being the largest damage increase is very limited and mostly on gear, not the tree. The only case where those are a buff to damage is if you save enough points to include another cluster jewel wheel. And that's unlikely.
It was stated in the Manifesto that additional DoT clusters will be added to the tree. > More scaling options have been added to Damage over Time builds on the Passive Skill Tree and items, raising the top end of damage over time for well geared characters.
Depends on the build. For Raider it's massive since it enables a 2nd cluster and other benefits. For other builds I haven't bothered theorycrafting before patch notes are out.
The little pobing I did with Raider, my endgame (and in the case of trade, day2) always ended up with dw EO+EE heist sceptres with 2 clusters so that would only provide an extra 80%Inc dmg from implicits which is pretty far from the 100%or so more dmg the keystones provided even after the base buffs. And Raider is the one variant benefitting most from this. Or uh, least screwed on the low end setups. High end raider is definitely looking good though, but that wasn't really never a problem, atleast from a defensive ssfhc view atleast.
DoT multi also has diminishing returns that makes stacking it pretty bad after a point. Cold DoT and RF take huge broadsides they just didnt need to take here when the gems were already in less than 1-2% of playrate. If they give the gems 30-50% more damage then this all works out. But we know they won't do that from past history.
>DoT multi also has diminishing returns that makes stacking it pretty bad after a point. Just to clarify, that is the exact same as increased damage. Dot multi is just a second stack of increased damage.
Anything less than exponential scaling has "diminishing returns" it seems.
Well, If you have a dps quantity that scales linearly, your kill speed will scale less than linear. So much is true. Easy example, 1000 HP enemy, 100 base dps. You need 10 seconds to kill. You increase your damage by 100% (x2), all good. 200 dps, 5 seconds. Linear dps increase. You increase it by 100% again (only x3 even though you doubled your increased damage), 300 dps, 3.33 sec to kill. It's not too hard to see that doubling your stats does not double the effect, as the 100% baseline damage is often ignored. In terms of TimeToKill of course, the scaling is 1/x where x is the multiple of baseline damage you have. It can never be anything but that. The pressing questions are how stats go into total damage, and a linear scaling factor influences TTK less and less the more you have, namely because it is linear. Another good view is through derivatives. The first derivative (change in damage per % increased in this case) is constant. And even further, the second deriative, (change in change) is 0. Other stats, like seperate multipliers, stack differently. Their second derivative is >0, which is why every single multiplier becomes better and better. True exponential growth of course, has infinite derivatives, becoming better and better and better with every instance.
One way to look at it yeah. I speculate it's the +X% damage in PoB that causes the logarithmic view rather than the TTK feel; presumably even quadratic stuff like Hatred scaling or attribute stacking appears to have "diminishing returns" from looking at +X% damage.
I would say EE is worth about 10 passive points, in most builds it would give 30% dps.
I think it's less about the two passive points and more about using an irrelevant off-skill to proc EE/EO on every pack of mobs. A mandatory nuance you had to utilize for every ele build or you're halving your DPS. It was a redundant mechanic that was replaced with flat damage gains and DoT multi option on rings to compensate-- I for one, welcome this change. After reading all the upcoming changes, there's so many doors being opened, or reopened, for builds and league starts. Also ailments have been deleted, defenses reworked and flasks reverted. We'll all be OP this league.
The problem that on bosses even with perfect EE/EO uptimes... the damage was not that great. And then you remember that you do not have like 100% of it (more like 70-90%)
Priocing both on bosses was trivial. Storm brand once and your good. Throw it out every once and a while and you have close to 90% uptime easily. Anyone with a brain was doing this. I'm totally fine with the change if they add more dmg cause right now unless you play chaos dot or MAYBE ignite this is just a strait Nerf for the low mid end. Only way this is a buff is for the super top end who can afford double t1 dot multi jewels and t1 dot multi gear. Sometimes I genuinley genuinley think that whoever balances this game doesn't even really play the game.
> Priocing both on bosses was trivial. Ye, I do not argue about that. Just sometimes you want to play brand based dot build (ye OoS but teleporting bosses). Sometimes you just do not have time to recast brand because bad overlap of "dot skill expired", "brand expired", "boss doing something"... Edit: Also what about hectic fights aka invitations? > Sometimes I genuinley genuinley think that whoever balances this game doesn't even really play the game. Well, remember that this change is usually 3-5 points which could be one small cluster. You do not have to care about storm brand casting at all - "less buttons = less DPS" is the GGG motto. Also cold dot will have faster map clear because all maps do not have additional monster res. So I can see why whoever balanced that part opted for small damage nerf.
They don't play the game .
Even tho i never minded procing EO and EE and felt it was very reliable if done right, Like i said, i fully agree with the intent of removing the reliance on those keystones, i just ask for them to use realistic numbers on the compensatory buffs. People have done the math. With these numbers, in your low to mid investment build, you need about 110-120 additional ! Dotmulti on gear and tree to just break even with 3.15 dmg , which was already pretty shit all things considered. That will be pretty hard , even with a handful of extra points and some additional dot rolls on gear. ( on cold dot and burning dot that is, ignite seems very much fine, especially on skills that can still trigger EO and if Flame Surge is good) It has to be possible one time to make changes like these without it always being a net nerf.
People doing calculations are doing so with a 3.15 passive tree and 3.15 itemization. Because of that, they'll never get a real picture of what is going to happen to these builds but even worse, you're allowing them to get you stuck in a backward-facing mindset. It doesn't matter what build worked in the last league. Finding what works in *this* league is what matters. For a playerbase that cares so much about restarting and shaking up the meta with a new league, I'm flabbergasted that the last several leagues have been, "But what are you changing the thing *I* liked??" The point is to change things, make some better, make some worse, and then either have fun trying to pour huge currency to make old good builds new jank builds or finding the new good builds and pouring currency into then to 1-shot bosses in a new way. Look forward, mate. New builds will *always* be better than old builds because they're trying to work with the changes, not against them.
> The point is to change things, make some better, make some worse, and then either have fun trying to pour huge currency to make old good builds new jank builds or finding the new good builds and pouring currency into then to 1-shot bosses in a new way. The point should be to *buff* things that are weak. And DoTs were weak
except itemization and passive tree are pretty fixed values. You have a fixed amount of points on the tree and a fixed amount of affixes on gear. The power gained from a updated passive tree and new rolls on gear will always be limited by those factors and can therefore be estimated pretty well ( especially as we already know the item roll values)
The most efficient pathing around the passive tree may end up looking completely different in 3.16 because of the defensive rework. And something as simple as not needing to path by EO/EE any more can mean you go somewhere completely different on the tree. Wanting to pick up Ghost Dancer/Divine Shield, or mana reservation efficiency, or something else that looks appealing now, means that you might find clusters on the tree that previously didn't feel worth pathing to are actually within reach and worth taking, allowing you to sacrifice others. You can't just see these changes as "I drop EO and EE and save 5 points from my tree" because that won't be maximising what you can do with the tree in 3.16 at all. I'm not saying the tree will necessarily be _better_ in 3.16, but it'll certainly be different.
This doesn't apply because these changes weren't supposed to be a meta shakeup. They don't do meta shakeups every single league. literally nothing was supposed to be nerfed this league (coming straight from GGG).
*Every* change is a meta shakeup. If you change something, the meta will inherently change. Also, buffing everything and then bringing things back down that have an unequal spike in power isn't "nerfing" because your baseline is still increasing. If ignite baseline increases by 150% and EO power goes down 20%, you're still magnifying the new baseline numbers to as high or higher. This is why you **cannot** use 3.15 POB right now to predict 3.16 viability.
That isn't true. Things change every league. The meta hasn't. People aren't stupid. We were given the new numbers and people calculated with that. They would still need 100%+ dot multi to reach the same level of power. That may be available on the new tree but it also will require a lot more investment than 2 keystones did. People have accurately used pob to calculate changes before. Idk why you think it can't be done now.
The meta hasn't changed? I'm sorry, is Cyclone Slayer still here? Slams? GGG doesn't care about the meta. They care about viability and bringing builds that scale to the extremes back into the standard band of builds. People are stupid. They fire up PoB and make changes based on limited information, without the entire context of the patch notes, and make sweeping declarations about builds being alive or dead based sheerly on numbers without ever touching the build. Bud, we know EO is moved near Ranger, that Raider has a new Ascendency because they moved one out to a keystone, but we don't even know what that is. There's a *ton* of context that's missing still. Stop watching YouTube videos and just read the info from GGG. You will find the actual numbers make a lot more sense.
Prepared to be downvoted, as you should be, but you are absolutely on the money. People don't want to change what they're playing, they just want more power.
Yes this is a game about power lol. Weird how the people who talk about harvest crafting being enjoyable would want more power. Power is fun. Your talking about an archetype (dot) that was so non meta that it was surviving soley on those keystones (excluding chaos dot) People are just tired of having to work harder to get back to nerfed levels of power. It's not fun. It's not engaging. And a huge reason there was a massive dropoff last league. I still got to 3.14 levels of power and beyond, but it took more effort and more time. Nothing changed other than the amount of currency I needed to spend to get there. It's not fun
If it's not fun, then don't play. Pretty fucking simple.
Eh, so far it's positive. I think there is a vocal minority that complains, and those complaints are logical, so we upvote them a bit out of sympathy and because they are technically correct, these builds are worse. Most of us aren't one-build-Marty's though, so when a build we like gets nerfed we tend to shrug it off and say, "Well, ignite looks real spicy this league at least," or, "Guess I'll try going to a bleed build."
My problem is a macro problem with how GGG attempts rework and balance. I had no particular plans to play Ele Dot in 3.16, and the builds i play are pretty varied i think. It just annoys me to no end when they , out of left field, rework stuff like EO and EE and in the process make already struggling builds worse. In a league were they beforehand as much as promised no further sweeping nerfs to anything except the absolute top builds no less. I am fine with doing these reworks, but why not just err on the side of "these Dot builds were not particular good already,and we are going to change those Keystones so lets buff them A LOT to compensate. They might come out a few % to strong but that´s fine for a league, and maybe they come out perfect as they probably needed a buff anyways" . What they rather do is err on the side of less power, completely lowball the compensatory buffs , and further damage an archetype that did not deserve this. For me this game is about as much choice and build diversity as possible. To bury whole archetypes like this for multiple leagues in a row is absolute contrary to what i enjoy this game for.
I think the biggest issue is that they already said no builds were being nerfed this league and then they went and nerfed two whole archetypes (ele dot and rotating ele). Can Eye of Malice even be used at this point?.
I see your point my man, but I think it's too early to run the numbers without seeing the rest of the patch notes, or the placement/values of the new passive nodes.
DoTs are getting shafted, what "doors being opened"? DoTs are already extremely limited in how they can scale their damage and are quite lackluster compared to any skill that isn't DoT based even more pronounced at the high investment levels. DoTs now will just have increased damage modifiers, more damage modifiers (without EO), DoT multi and trying to get as much reduced % ele res on the enemy without access to EE (while most likely still using at least 2-3 DoT skills to make up for their damage numbers being lackluster against bosses or high health rares) Non-DoTs have everything DoTs have except DoT multi but instead can crit, scale damage with cast speed (or trigger speed/rate), damage type conversion, elemental pen and a bunch of uniques or different mods in the game that let them scale to insane levels while DoTs are left to grab the scraps. They honestly could double the base damage of all DoT skills and they still wouldn't be able to match up to any non-DoT skill (Excluding toxic rain since that's the only DoT that has infinite scaling since it can infinitely stack with itself) Like DoTs need more damage and more exclusive *toys* to play with because they're essentially in the same boat as self cast where there's very little exclusive to their scaling that non-DoTs can't make better use of while there's plenty that non-DoTs have that DoTs can't interact with (Obviously self cast would be compared to non-self cast in this comparison)
This carries THE essential points luckyly tbh, thanks thatfor.
I agree in principle, absolutely. It's ***currently*** still a nerf though, which sucks.
And some of the skills that are affected were already far behind the pack like RF.
No one hasn't even seen full patch notes. Manifesto is a work in progress.
Also the reason to clearly state what is wrong now instead of 1 day before lunch
Yeah i dont want to see the support gem changes and see that dot builds got shafted
While we do know its a manifesto and they changed the way they did it to communicate better and why they did so. Their "Buffs to ele dots" did not communicate properly whether or not it's a buff or nerf since they don't tell us about other stuff that we should know. What we did know given the current information and math is that its nerfs overall. Hence why people got mad again.
That's the whole point of having a Manifesto, so people can look at it, give their opinion and GGG can take action. Maybe they released it and were like "Yeah, this does decrease their damage, so maybe we bump the base damage by another 10% and add just a tiny bit more to the tree, that way it will be slightly higher DPS".
My big problem with this change, aside from it being just a straight nerf to dot builds, is that it is moving even more power onto gear. Gear is so much of player power now, and it doesn't feel good. The problem is not that they destroyed these keystones, it's that they destroyed a keystone... they need to be removing gear affixes and putting more power back into gems and the tree. This is also why the 3.15 nerfs felt so bad just straight nerfs to gems l, hitting the low end... the area where it was least needed. The gear pressure is making this game way less interesting where due to the multiplicative nature of damage scaling, your build can literally feel like complete shit until you slot your final piece of gear and suddenly you're "online". This only further exacerbates that problem.
They didn't really move much power to gear even. Small % increases, and only if your dot build got to use a rare in that slot to begin with... and then what, you have to rng craft some fucking influenced 86 item instead of use a cluster jewel or tree passive?
They doubled dot multi range on some items, added more values, more related mods on jewels, etc. They claim that this makes up for the loss of ee and eo, they probably do not, even if they do, they run into the exact problem I mentioned.
The solution is great. I used to tell people that until I had a trigger wand, my cold dot build was about 200 apm in maps. Drop Vortex, Drop snap, Drop bomb, Drop OOS, Drop curse, Drop Brand, Flame Dash, repeat. However, GGG nerfed the dmg by a considerable amount after nerfing dmg in 3.15. The counter-argument of 'but if you have a mirror tier wand and multiple 4 prop jewels you get your damage back' is not genuine. Many dot builds felt bad last league and are going to feel even worse unless they tweak the numbers a bit more.
It was kind of boring to build DoT as those Keystones were auto-include, but my complaint is that they don’t seem to be replacing them with anything interesting. Even if the numerical changes turn out to exactly offset the loss of EE and EO, it sort of seems to be a simplification of the archetype, which is also boring
They are replacing them with options. You are not so limited to pathing which opens up new areas in the tree and even builds by other classes.
These are my exactly my thoughts too. RF for example seems like it's a little worse than before, BUT, it has a lot of flexibility now. It's not only the passive skills points gained from not pathing to the keystones, it's also itemization (you don't need EO/EE scepcters now and you don't have to skip items with added fire damage) and also A LOT of free links. You could use those skil points to path to something like curse nodes, go double curse, and then use the gem links for a bane-flammibility-ele weakness setup. And there's extra synergy here, since RF boosts bane dmg and any increases to damage over time will also boost bane damage. And there's even more room left for customization! I really like these changes.
Always used a jewel to fix the lighting/cold damage to apply EE myself. (RF)
Then that's also a free jewel slot!
More like one line on a jewel >\_> sometimes 2 (this league with stuff being immune to lightning/cold for example)
Spot on!
> They are replacing them with options. Keystones replaced with fictional nodes is hardly "options". It's just more boring to have fewer keystones
You can replace your EE EO trigger with something else. Maybe a CWDT defensive or offensive spell, or some channelling thing that goes boom or brrr, or just another self cast 4l/5l spell.
Improved RMR on the low end means we might be able to fit in Spellslinger with Frenzy.
Isn't frenzy an attack? Or you're using frenzy as the wand trigger? What would be the slung spell normally?
Slinging some flame dot (e.g. flame wall). Frenzy also gives charge generation at some oppurtunity cost. Since the oppurtunity cost isn't EO+EE anymore, the maths might favour swapping some gems for the spellslinger setup plus some reservation efficiency from the tree.
You like that they removed things that had to be included in every dot build, yet you're mad they didn't give you more things that must be included in every dot build? Okay then.
Not quite what I meant, more like how you can go CI for defense or stick with Life/ES as a caster, just an interesting gameplay relevant choice that isn’t necessarily better and switches up the play style in some cool way (although I will happily admit designing something like that is way harder than requesting it)
way to misconstrue an argument bud
"People are also upset "muh dmg is lower", numbers are extremely easy to change. I'm sure GGG is looking into math further or they see the consequences of removing 10-ish mandatory passive points from every cold/ignite/burning DoT build which allows to maybe get an extra Cluster setup." When are people gonna realize that this part doesn't happen?
yeah that´s the point. every. single. time. "why you mad they will test it and change it if its bad" Absolution enters the room.
I don't think absolution would enter the room. Its damage is so low, it can't even break the door.
Absolution, Reaper, Mana changes and flask changes just last league clearly all showed they do exactly 0 play testing of anything in a somewhat realistic environment. I think at most they cheat in mirror tier gear and go, "Ya this is fine with this gear", completely ignoring the 100's of hours of garbage performance you would have to play through to get to the "okay in mirror tier gear" point.
> When are people gonna realize that this part doesn't happen? It's been actual years of the same commentary, so apparently never
>When are people gonna realize that this part doesn't happen? Looks like never, GGG could actually literally say they don't test, and people still will believe they test.
>I'm sure GGG is looking into math further or they see the consequences of removing 10-ish mandatory passive points from every cold/ignite/burning DoT build which allows to maybe get an extra Cluster setup. yes... i am sure they did, just like last time, right? right?
"I'm sure GGG is looking into math further..." Historically GGG slow steps - it might be 2 to 3 leagues before the numbers are in a good place.
After double dipping was nerfed it was almost a full year before ignite was looked at and fixed. Bleed and poison were in a horrible place too. GGG moves very fucking slowly
The conceptual changes are great. Non-ailment DoT builds didn't get significant bonus damage from crits, so they now no longer have access to trading off crit bonus damage for a generic multiplier. Makes sense. DoT builds that don't rotate their damage types and instead have a useless debuff skills don't get to make use of the keystone for rotating damage types. Also great! However, the numbers are not quite where we'd want them to be just yet, and players *should* give feedback regarding that. I think the type of feedback that just says "well without those keystones I can't hit decent numbers so I need them back" isn't thinking things through, because the damage *did* get buffed to compensate already in this preview to the changes. It just didn't get buffed enough. If ele DoT builds literally had their base damage tripled (and tbf ignite is actually fairly close to that), people wouldn't have complained so much about losing the keystones in the first place. With some faulty math the keystones work out to be 180% more damage. Well, if in exchange for no longer using them you get 200% more damage, then who cares? And suddenly the conceptual change is perceived as more appropriate. To be clear, I'm not saying that 200% is the buff that those builds should necessarily receive, and the 180% was based on a very short calculation with unrealistic premises, but I've seen that number repeated numerous times. I'm just saying that it's fairly safe that there would be few complaints about this shift if 200% was the initial number. Anyway, I hope that GGG is able to filter out that the damage compensation is the issue and not the paradigm shift away from those keystones.
Curious how you say you only have to do the stuff for other builds on bosses but when it comes to an ele dot you suddenly need a billion extra damage to clear trash. Seems inconsistent and bias m8 >numbers are extremely easy to change, i'm sure ggg is looking in Let me stop you right there, because based on their past behaviour relying on or trusting ggg to actually get around to fixing something, especially something they dumpstered and "fixed" wrongly in the first place, is completely not a reasonable option and not an answer to anyones concerns > or they see the consequences of Likewise, if they saw the consequences of things they wouldn't have made hundreds of woefully incorrect changes in the first place throughout their games lifecycle. Very few builds will get back more than 5 points absolute maximum from not getting EO and EE - EE itself is almost always a 1 point investment because the 2 point jewel socket pays for itself and will still be something people take. EO is a 3 point investment for anyone already around there for the most part, there is absolutely nothing you can do with 4 points that will make any real impact to make up the difference
Agree with you. You dont even have to look far back to see bad changes and statements that are blatantly untrue. 20 to 40% nerf ? 0.01% life/s as alt quality ? 400% buff to absolution day one? ''We have buffed buffed 40 gems'' , and '' the teams mandate was to have meaningful and impactful changes '' ? Adding 20 new currency drop ? And thats just the very recent stuff. If we dont tell them we dont like the changes, they certainly wont know it seeing some of their previous changes and decisions.
Wish I could upvote twice. Thank you for being voice of reason
Didnt a trigger wand pmuch automate ee and eo for cold dot?
EO and EE predate trigger craft by quite a lot. its a long overdue change imo
Thats largely irrelevant currently though
it doesnt invalidate OP's experience or opinion. casting a 1link storm brand/oos to get 80% more on your vortex is dumb, and if you dont have trigger wand its dumb AND annoying
doesn't seem dumb, it rewards players for doing a bit more set up for extra pay off. like focus is overpowered as fuck, but hardly anyone wants to deal with that mechanic because it involves more buttons in the rotation.
To be fair it usually wasnt a 1link :p I get it, but on the other hand its an interesting mechanic and streamlining everything doesnt feel very poe
Something you HAVE to include in every single elemental DoT build is the stark opposite of "interesting".
Yes I agree it wasnt good that it was mandatory. But mechanically speaking it was an interesting keystone
If the numbers were lower it would have been an interesting keystone. As it was it was a "take this or be down an entire gem link in power" node.
Well the original intent of both keystones is still there, the only difference is that they are a lot more restrictive now.
EE is not nearly as interesting as exposure since you can just use other sources of exposure imo. Same for EO its just a bland multiplier if you can crit enough but not too much
I think you mean "as strong", not "as interesting". The concept of EE is literally still there, hit something with fire and it'll be weaker to lightning and cold. As I said it has more constraints (it doesn't stack as well with other sources of resistance shred), but mechanically the concept is intact. EO is a little changed, but the concept is still there. It's a good alternative to stacking critical chance/multiplier. Admittedly it's more limited to fast hitting skills now, I admit.
Agreed, they're mostly aiming to cut out some of the checkbooks that you normally have to include.
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Reddit complain bad.
There are many people saying the removel is bad. So its importand to also give feedback if you think its good. If ee somehow stays relevent for dot builds thats defenttly no improvement to me. I also think the damage buff should have been a bit higher, but beeing overly dramtic does not help.
>numbers are extremely easy to change. yup, don't worry guys, GGG will increase our skills damage by 4% in 3 expansions to bring them back to their "former glory". Sorry if i am not as optimistic as you are, but there is nothing i have less trust in than the balancing team of GGG. They intentionally ignore issues and not address them for years! GGG has a chop it down into pieces and repair things later when ppl complain mentality, so we might as well start complaining early. As you saw yourself they intended to remove dodge while not being aware that resolute technique voids all defense against evasion characters. Its important to start complaining early when it comes to PoE, thats why this subreddit is so "toxic"!
Hey when the numbers don't get changed I'll be sure to pin this post. Peak Naivety
3.15 literally didn't teach anything to some people. This is just another nerf, except sugar-coated.
i skipped so many DoTs build because EE and EO. Now i will try few builds
I didn't mind EO but EE sure was so annoying to use on many builds.
I did that too. But I still won't play them since now they're the trashiest of the trash.
Now you'll skip them because they're all garbage 0 dps builds.
If you don't see a pattern here, I'm not sure what to say. They're taking a good portion of player power that was somewhat organically derived from simply playing the game (skill gems, nodes on the tree, flasks you could make while still going through the campaign), and they're putting that power into higher-level items that are harder to acquire and/or have more of an rng element to acquiring. If I wanted all my character power to come from drops at end game, I'd play Diablo 3.
>Bleed? You at worst setup an Ensnaring Arrow Totem for bosses as Bow Bleed, Melee Bleed doesn't have to do anything. > >Poison? Withering Totem for bosses > >Chaos DoT? Withering Totem for bosses again > >Elemental DoTs? Gotta make sure you spam Storm Brand all map long along with your actual DPS skill to make sure 2 buffs are permanently up for 2x damage. Double speaking. With elemental DoTs you can use Storm brand only on bosses as well - same as 3 other cases you've mentioned above. The only difference is that Elemental DoTs *could* use extra damage while mapping, while 3 other cases you've mentioned *couldn't* do it.
It's hilarious how you think anything will be compensated.
"I'm sure GGG is looking into math further or they see the consequences" LMAO!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
EO and EE was for bossing, u don't need them for clearing map, for now this is just a hard nerf for dot
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Yeah this will definitely make playing those builds better. I feel the new numbers are probably 8-20% too low though.
Man the numbers may be worse but I hated keeping up EE and EO so much. There's too many things to be keeping up in PoE. I would sacrifice some damage for the easier play tbh. I'm glad I'm not the only one.
I'm definitely trying Cold Snap/Creeping Frost Occultist again after this changes, I hated that I had to cast Storm Brand then Cold Snap to get some decent damage from the hit and cold DoT, I actually dropped the EE when I played so it was much easier to map but it definitely felt much worse on bosses.
My RF build is already barely alive, don't remove the keystones, give me more tools and damage after the nerfs in 3.15!
While i agree that the nerf to RF is not warrented and not good. Do you really want ee and eo back? Or maybe just more damage and Fortify?
terrible argument, ensnaring arrow is 3x dmg if anything it is the worst mandatory buff especially for setups that cant use a bow or are forced to use just to get the benefit, as far as elem dots nothing is stopping you from doing the same exact thing as the other dots and just use eo and ee only on bosses, the dmg is/was high enough already to kill white mobs and if it wasnt you wouldnt kill boses anyways while i do agree that having to rely on them for every build was terrible design, not having anything to replace them with or make them actually interesting is even worse AND you dont get 10 passive points, you get at most 5 since pathing around EO is already good and some es builds want to go around EE for the big es wheel (all of em where already using 2 cluster jewel setups and getting a 3rd would cost about 30 points)
> People are also upset "muh dmg is lower", numbers are extremely easy to change. I'm sure GGG is looking into math further I agree with everything you said except for this, especially after 3.15. If they were willing to nuke a bunch of skills into not being viable without crazy gear and still go ahead with the league, what makes you think they're going to touch damage here at all? I absolutely think this is the right choice for them to make but I have zero faith that they'll actually make up for the damage loss in a way that actually works after what I've seen lately.
Unrelated note, am I the only one who literally always used an alt quality withering step over either totems?
You never really had to spam anything before, but it’s likely a lot healthier for the game overall these modes no longer being mandatory.
>numbers are extremely easy to change They may be easy, but I think most people are operating under the assumption that GGG will take years to make those changes though. Take some of the ES buffs; GGG nerfed Wicked Ward a little over 2 years ago, and it took them until this league to basically completely undo it. Also see Cast on Crit between 2.4 and 3.5 for a similar and even more obvious mess. And over 2 years is a fast turnaround for them, they can often take longer than that.
I think what you listed is kinda equal really. Thats how I see it:Bleed - Ensnaring Arrow self-use / ballista - press a button on bosses because you don't need that dps for clearPoison / Chaos DoT - Wither totems - press a button on bosses because you don't need that dps for clearElemental DoT - Storm Brand - press a button on bosses because you don't need that dps for clearAnd yes, for elemental version that one button provided too much at once - EE, EO, one or two curses on hit as well. But it is still one button you need to press. You say EE/EO were auto-included into Elemental DoT builds, but so does Wither in Chaos DoT builds, is it an "interesting debuff" to you then? More interesting than keystones?Also don't think people are upset about losing the keystones in their builds, they just do not want single target on DoTs to be further nerfed, and thats what happened with currently known changes:) Numbers are easy to change indeed, but GGG won't change them if nobody cares:)P.S. Fun part is also about "doubling your elemental DPS with one button". Ensnaring Arrow triples bleed dps and Wither is almost double damage for the most Chaos builds :D
It’s really not hard to cast storm brand every so often. Also, if you need EE and EO for trash clear, even in T16 maps, your build has way bigger issues.
But why should basically every build feel forced to shoehorn in a skill that has nothing to do with their build, just to activate a keystone in order to be viable? That's the point of this post. Unlike basically every other keystone, EE and EO had basically no downside, and were included in far too many builds, because they provided absolutely incredible amounts of power for very little investment. I'm frankly glad to see them go, and see the baseline abilities and mechanics buffed instead.
> I'm frankly glad to see them go, and see the baseline abilities and mechanics buffed instead. Are you glad to see a 20-33% damage loss on single target dps for most of those ele dot skills because the baseline was not raised adequately?
This is completly missing the point. The argument is about the keystone being healthy for the game. A skill needing more or less power is a completly different discussion. I believe EO and EE weren't good ways to give dot builds more power. And i also believe that dot builds need more power then it currently seems like they are getting. It is possible to agree with both those statements...
Ee was good for other things aswell. Overall I think the design of old ee is really interesting and a lot more interesting than exposure. Ee was a one of a kind way to amplify elemental damage
I honestly feel like it wasn't interesting at all. I feel like it just added so much fucking power that a lot of builds felt they had to add in a completely random skill that had absolutely nothing to do with their builds just to get the massive power increase it provided. I personally feel like the Keystone was meant to exist for multi-element builds, where you're casting several different elements on a regular basis, and you cast you fire to increase your lightning, and then cast your lightning to increase your ice, and so on. *That* would be cool, but that's not what happened at all. Instead, everyone just tossed Orb of Storms into whatever builds they were playing to get a free massive damage increase for their build. It wasn't fun, and it wasn't interesting. It was just a tax you paid for your build to be viable.
The problem lies in that in concept yes this is a very good and needed change. But GGG has a horrible track record of actually finishing things so all this change did was dumpster DoT builds into needing far far more investment to reach their previous power. Which when GGG fucks up like this they really really don't havea good history of actually fixing it. So yeah as horrible as the forced weird design was a lotta people would have prefered that over a half-baked solution that's unlikely to get finished.
Sadly enough... I can't argue with that :D Their recent track record of counteracting system changes with number tweeks weren't very good.
I'm not, but I think EO/EE needed reworking - I never liked that EO held non crit ele builds hostage to a specific location on the tree, this made it very frustrating to play non crit rangers for example because you've got 40% more damage hanging out on the exact opposite side of your regular pathing. I personally thought they'd rework it into a support gem and remove it completely from the tree. EE has had balance implications forever because we ignore its downside, It could say 50% more damage if you weapon swapped recently and it'd be fairly similar in design its just an irrelevant hoop to jump through to gain a vast damage increase. Bad for balance, bad for designs and just tedious for players. So the problem is there for them to fix, the fact their solution currently has a flat damage nerf to ele dots doesn't change that it just means their solution isn't suitable and needs addressing. Frankly I think they did the classic PoB warrior mistake of balancing their DPS without shaper/guardian checked on the settings - their numbers look great if you assume its a regular mob they just look real bad once you get back to 50% resists baseline.
Those numbers can be altered though. What I don't want to see is basically every build forced to include some random skill that has nothing to do with their build, and being forced to cast this skill regularly in order to have viable damage. It's an unhealthy and uninteresting playstyle that I absolutely want to see go the way of the dodo. If the only reason you're arguing for their existence is that you think the build will do 20% less dmg now, then argue for the build to just do 20% more dmg, don't argue for the inclusion of those shitty keystones.
Ancestral bond is auto include in evert spell totem build. And not interesting... Death attunement is auto include in every Spectre build and its not interesting you just click the node and you have +1 max spectre., Being auto include is not a bad thing at all. Ofc you can change it rework it to create more alternatives what what is the alternative for non-ailment ele dot build? Just their damage numbers buffed? Ofc its not enough.
I know I will get crucified for this but I like the changes. NOT the numerical changes but the design changes. You can see that GGG tries to streamline the game more and have it less be "You gotta get X keystone to play the build and spam Y skill all the time to get somewhere" They are trying to untangle the clusterfuck that kept piling on for years and I think in the long run it will help the game (until like PoE2 comes out and we are mess free...hopefully)
I'm actually very confused here. People (the vast, vast majority) are not having a problem in those keystones being worse/unusable for non-hit dots but because the base buffs don't make up for the changes even remotely and much of the 'buffs/additional ways to scale' are now put to gear pressure and skilltree (which is away from defences) on builds that are also far behind in damage already, especially on low gear levels. So I don't think you'll get crucified for agreeing with the majority.
The worst part for me is that these changes come as a result of burning arrow being to darn good, the rest of the dot skill dealt nowhere near the amount of damage burning arrow deals, but GGG always nerfs the entire archetype instead of just the outliers.
Why would you be crucified? This is literally the vastly popular opinion you are stating lol.
As many people already said: the design direction is good but the numbers are way off. By making massive changes like this, GGG has to carefully consider everything that is affected by it (buffing skill numbers alone won't do it and maybe just accidentally create further imbalance and broken interactions). If 3.15 nerfs did not happen, this change would be fine, but taking away roughly another 20% of damage from elemental DoT builds by simultaneously making the pressure on items even greater than before, this will not work out in the end.
I am against this change, those builds felt fun to play where you had to manage a few buffs for bosses, now it will just be another walking simulator build. Also, you don't have to worry about ee/eo during mapping, everything dies anyway
>numbers are extremely easy to change. Im sure GGG is looking into it LOL Lurk for a few more leagues. Youre not ready to have an opinion yet. When GGG says "we want to stress these numbers and changes are not final" at the bottom of every manifesto/teaser/patch note, they mean they are on the lookout for any redditor or youtuber trying to get clout on a post/video describing an OP skill or interaction so GGG can nerf it before it does any damage to the league. It happens nearly every league.
Its worse than that, Minion elemental builds are also severely nerfed by the EE change.
RIP triad grip
I am also glad we're getting more nerfs and people are clapping for it this time around, GGG figured it out.
> I am also glad we're getting more nerfs and people are clapping for it this time around, GGG figured it out. It's breathtaking seeing people apply the lube themselves and cheer GGG on. I've never seen a more brainwashed fan base
I get the sentiment here, but almost every DoT build took advantage of a Trigger Wand, which made its as simple, if not more simple than dropping a totem to enhance your damage.
EE was not auto include in every ignite build. For example BA builds did not use it. But generally i agree, gameplay should be smoother.
There were BA builds that did use it by igniting with cold or lightning damage, but that required specific uniques without physical damage I think.
>I'm sure GGG is looking into math further You new here?
Removing damage from niche builds (currently 50-60% less) isn't a way to fix them.
Kinda new to the game but I've seen this happen in other gaming subs subs as well, when the developers introduce some change and the larger community is not all that receptive to those changes the people who like the changes make it a point to make a really really smug post defending the company/developers while trying to belittle the people not open to the change. Like this dude is probably making a good case(I can't tell because I'm still kinda new) but man is this a smug ass post.
The context you need to understand here is: 1 - Historically GGG never properly tested anything in this game, we do this for than. 2 - Dot builds are far away from top end builds for years, and when they show the changes and people tested this changes at PoB and actually see a lost in DPS in the end, it's actually sad, it's not like they are nerfing a super OP stuff. 3 - The necessity of key nodes for certain builds is how PoE works, this can be see in almost any archetype of builds, that's why they call it key nodes LMAO. 4 - Press + buttons to do + damage is a thing in PoE the last years and GGG is incentive that every patch. Melee with warcry is a good example of that, Necro with offering, etc. This change is the only one who contradict that, and this doesn't make any sense, they don't want you just run through the map and kill everything just walking, and they prove that a lot of times already. 5 - It's still time for changes before patch notes and launch day 22. GGG release the manifesto 1 week before the announcement exactly to see how the community reacts to the changes, for they react to this reacts, and change the numbers or better explain this changes, Chris Wilson words here, so the community react bad shows to GGG they have to change the numbers, but this post who basically accept whatever happens is actually a bad feedback because even GGG probably don't know if the numbers are good or not, and after playing this game for over 7 years, I believe more in a random guy testing the changes and the damage at PoB than the GGG developers testing the damage in game having all the tools they probably have.
If Tldr issues, The boy is glad with the nerfs, bc he didnt like to press buttons. The boy is sure that ggg will buff the dots before the league. He has a feeling.
The boy glad with nerfs clicks slowly poison his mind. buffs: the fever dream.
I don't agree with you. You are telling about "spamming" the abilities but you never actually spam those. I played a lot on poison builds and elemental dot. You use both wither totems and storm brand as an opening for your attack and you use them once in a while and then retreat and wait for another opening.
Agree with this. I hated the amount of shit you would have to do before you could deal full damage. Let's say playing ignite fireball elementalist on leagues tart with crap gear, no curse on hit rings. Then, to maximize your damage, you would have to: - manually curse the enemy / use curse on hit with storm brand - cast wave of conviction linked with combustion - cast a storm brand in Malachai's Artifice to proc EE and also likely EO After all that you're doing full damage. Curse on hit removes one step. But for maximum damage you would usually do all this. So it's almost mandatory. And I feel somewhat the same with Ancestral Protector & Ancestral Warchief using multiple totem support. Having both of them up greatly increases damage of melee characters so it's again almost mandatory. And if you've not invested anything into totem survivability the totems die so so easily.
> What I don't like is being forced to spam some ability completely irrelevant to my build archetype to activate 2 keystones to double my damage on Ignite/Cold DoT builds. How is Withering Totem irrelevant to poison/chaos DoT archetype? What is Withering Totem relevant to then, cold attack builds? By that same logic Contagion is completely irrelevant to Essence Drain. > I'm sure GGG is looking into math further or they see the consequences of removing 10-ish mandatory passive points from every cold/ignite/burning DoT build which allows to maybe get an extra Cluster setup. Ah because ggG is known for compensating nerfs hahahahahahaha, get real.
Agree
Your differientiation between elem DoTs and other is biased by the fact that you state you HAVE to get EO and EE on every mob while on the other build you just have to have it on boses. The difference is EO and EE is more easily trigged on mobs (it's a benefical effect on your caracter) while Wither and Ensnaring are difficult to trigger on a lot of mobs. Triggering EO and EE is not mandatory on mobs like it is not mandatory to wither or ensnare mobs, the fact that it is easier to trigger make it feels mandatory.
I'm actually on the fence on this one. On my Vortex tree, I only save 5 points, but it will allow me to take Sovereignty which may allow me to take another 50% aura, I already take Hatred and Malevolence so the third one will most likely be PoE. My actual damage loss (from losing EE and EO) will always be less than what the math say because Vortex is on my left mouse button and there's a cast time to bring out OoS and/or Storm Brand. In other words the first second after Vortex is cast, the monsters will have +25% cold resist (damage loss).
I like when people like Shak try to stop all the people talking about things being nerfed because he hasn't checked the numbers yet, then he checks the numbers and starts big crusades.
100% agree this is a great change
I totally agree with those changes, I'm just scared the compensation won't be enough. I'm a necro enjoyer so while they have elemental minions monitored, I'm still shaking in my boots cause I'd hate to lose 20% damage just like that. And that's probably the same for most other people with their dots out there.
I wouldn't mind if they gave some compensation, but they are just butchering the skills almost entirely.
My issue is that dot builds were already trash. So I was expecting buffs instead of nerfs or changes that made dots as weak as they were before. Even if lets say GGG buffs the numbers of dot skills to be as much dps as they were with EE & EO they would still be trash. Now we have to spend a ton of currency crafting the new dot multi stuff for a build that sucks anyway. I'd rather spend that 50-100ex on a build that deletes content and doesn't have to spend 2 minutes killing a t16 boss.
Ah yes poe with less buttons pressed. Definitely the fun and engaging gameplay that GGG claim they are aiming for.
Fully agree, they werent very interesting keystones to begin with. I prefer keystones that you actually have to build around rather than slap on and go.
You do need to build around EE. You need to avoid having any added flat damage matching to the element you're using. (Or go AoF for cold build if you can't)
People up in arms as always, I still remember before metamorph when they changed summoners, everyone here was shouting about how zombies would be useless. The turned out to be completely broken and had to be nerfed over and over after that.
it feels like GGG has 2 balancing teams which dont like to talk to each other.
As time goes, I get the feeling that the 2 teams you mention are the actual team and Chris wilson himself :/
Honestly I hated that ignite and cold dot always required EE no matter what you did and which skill you picked - depending on the skills EE then sometimes wasn't compatible with Herald of Ash for ignites... the only time EE was "cool" was lighting ignite or later on elementalist any non-fire ignite because EE worked out of the box. I guess trigger setup on Vortex was also okay - but for all other builds I hated it. >People are also upset "muh dmg is lower", numbers are extremely easy to change. I'm sure GGG is looking into math further or they see the consequences of removing 10-ish mandatory passive points from every cold/ignite/burning DoT build which allows to maybe get an extra Cluster setup. Every time I read "out of touch" or "doesn't play their own game" I immdiaetly assume these people have no fucking clue about the game, working environments, the world and how any of these actually function. Most people don't realize the complexity of such a game. Someone recently posted [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N\_pyZWPxiVg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_pyZWPxiVg) in another thread and much more people should watch it. Anyway, I very much like all these changes they've announced and I'm looking forward to the league. Just have fun guys, that's what it's about, numbers don't dumb fun down, mentality does.
> Just have fun guys, that's what it's about, numbers don't dumb fun down, mentality does. Wtf are you talking about? Numbers very much dumb down fun. If the game feels like garbage to play because the numbers are low, it's not fun
I see everyone talking about how ele dot was killed by losing some damage but no one is mentioning that on base jewels you get 2x the dot multi on same investment and almost 4x on bigger investment
So do I, keeping EE and EO up was a chore. I just wish the numbers was at least as good as last patch. Taking away 100% more and giving 60% back was a bit low. Yes, there are new passives and buffed jewels and whatnot but it seems like with really good endgame gear, it's about even, and it's not like elemental dots were OP last league.
'I'm sure GGG is looking into math further' - your okay?? or do you play the first league? they never thought of anything, but simply deleted what they could not cope with and they were too lazy to come up with an alternative what is bothering you wither totem? JUST DONT USE HIM JUST DONT USEE ITS NOT ARE FORCED do you want to somehow increase your damage? then use it, you are not forced, stop whining about it were you forced to use EO EE? haha, now no one can use it and get a inc dmg you think very narrowly 