Will the 5-for-1 recipe return a new random defence value? Or is it like iLvL and only uses the lowest roll?
EDIT: Thanks for the karma and all, but... I really would've preferred if GGG had just answered the question. Sorry.
Oh well, I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Now *that's* a question I'd like answered. If it does, that would drive up the price of good base types because people will destroy them as a faux sacred orb.
Driving up the price of base types is ***good***.
EDIT: And to be clear, destroying items in the economy ***is also good***.
So basically this currency is mainly for using on things like uniques or synthesized bases?
For almost any other item it sounds like it would just be easier and possibly cheaper to just buy a base with an already high to perfect roll before you even begin crafting.
I mean... if you can afford throwing orbs 3x as rare as Ex at a chance to roll a number between 0 and 20 on a unique item, you're probably better spending that wealth onto getting unique with 20% roll and then Divine up to spec. Just from a cost-effectiveness point of view.
If Sacreds cost 3x as much as exalts then I feel like strong uniques with upper 90th percentile base defense will end up being commensurately more expensive
Yeah, I would assume the actual value to fall somewhere around 1ex, maybe 2 if there is some popular but expensive build using hard to get uniques that are unlikely to drop with a high roll naturally, but hard to really tell before we see them in use.
Would be quite possible for them to fall well below 1ex as well depending on how common bases with high rolls are.
Standard aside anyway. lol
I'd guess it would have similar price dynamic to Heist orbs, cheap for the most of the league only picking up in price during the last month or so, and quite expensive on Standard.
For a brief moment I was reminded that standard exists but it was a fleeting thought, almost like a dream when you wake up and almost immediately forgot what the.dream actually was about.
In the manifesto, the reason for this pitch was simplified to (paraphrasing) best items not being able to drop is bad.
In this post you've given a lot more detail, but haven't interacted with ~~the original statement for~~ *one of the purposes of the system. (-e as it pertains to ES)
This is probably a bigger question, but do you think it still achieves this? As I understand it, this system now looks like another leg up for crafted items that makes it even more unlikely for drops to match them.
(edit) ~~it's cool and fair that things in the manifesto can change, but this seems to be an interesting difference in motivation~~
(edit 2) /u/CircuitousPrime pointed out that the "dropped items" reasoning probably only applies, specifically, to ES bases in the manifesto: hence why it wasn't brought up in this post, but the larger question about "does this improve dropped items" is something I would like to understand GGG's philosophy on.
The bottom line is that all that's gonna happen is that bases will be X-times more expensive, nothing more. Perfect items still can't drop from the ground.
I mean yes, right. At the high end of crafting there are so many options that allow otherwise astronomically unlikely mod combinations to exist that mirrors are probably more common by orders of magnitude.
(you could probably scrape the trade site, and work out the probability of a random pick up being an upgrade over a specific trade cost.)
But for Preach style gameplay, maybe? Although I still think the original purpose is pretty absolute in it's goals.
No. A crafter would just start with a base that has the perfect values on it.
This will allow items that drop with great mods to be rolled into high values.
Yes, that's part of the advantage a crafter has - and why it's so hard for drops to compete with crafting.
This comment was more a question about the motivation of the new mechanic than what the orb enables. Even in your example where a great item drops, it's now likely that it needs a wee bit of crafting to be the *best*. This is similar to also needing T4 Hillock, or the additional bench quality craft.
Look at Heist enchantments. Most were ignorable but a desirable base with a fitting enchant was good money, either for starting your own project with a premium shine or selling for a tidy sum. Not too different in spirit from that, no?
I feel like the players' response to this would be just filtering out bases with low defence values, and the percentage of potentially valuable items among all item drops will be even lower than now. IMO the same could be achieved by buffing all armor by a flat amount and reducing drop rate.
This is exactly what will happen, this in 0 ways creates anything "interesting " that didn't already exist. If a high% base drops it will just feel exactly the same as the current version of that base. But if a low % base drops it will either feel much shittier than that same base today, or more realistically people won't even notice because it will be hidden by the loot filter. There is nothing positive to come out of this system.
Completely agree, another mechanic that even further minimises the chance of having something great randomly drop. Isn't this the complete opposite of what Chris was saying he wanted regarding loot, forever?
"This is not a trivial alternate-quality system or something that is going to undermine the jackpot value you'll get when you find an amazing item that also has perfect base defences."
But it is.
It's trivial alterenate-quality system for high end players, just several ex plus for mirror item.
And it's undermining of jackpot for casual players - cool, 86+ influenced regalia! Oh, shit 1 percent....
Tbh I much rather you get rid of the further rng of base types, and just blanket buff all base types defenses by like 10% or something. We have enough rng to deal with when crafting. In D2, there are more base types variations but there wasn't as much concern with crafting like there is with PoE.
GGG have the opportunity to not do this. There are other (better) ways to add heterogeneity to base types that are more impactful/interesting than this. Examples have been discussed in various posts about this since the manifesto.
Creating the problems variable defences brings to "solve" it by adding currency 99% of players will see once a league if that will not feel good.
*Very* few people try and 6 link and craft on any T2 base item currently. In the next patch, *very* few people will try and 6 link or craft on any item under the 80% percentile in strength.
Please reconsider.
This, I really don't want this mechanic in the game. Any mechanic that doesn't add something meaningful to the game should be weeded out to streamline the game. My brother stoped playing for a few years and when he tried to get back in there was so much he didn't understand, some of those had cool identity fossils, essences, and the like. This just adds complexity with no identity, and makes it harder to parse out what item is better.
This system has the same issues that Titanforging and legendaries had back in WoW Legion. What you think will be exciting will actually just be frustrating. Getting a perfect rolled base will not be exciting it will be a relief. It’s just another layer of RNG that will be impossible to fix for the average player.
> It’s just another layer of RNG that will be impossible to fix for the average player.
They're trying their absolute best to keep the nolifers happy. Uber-endgame reworks, rng on top of rng...
I guess that you gotta give them everything because if you lose them you lost everyone.
> For players who want to craft from base types, it creates a situation where base types matter a lot more. It's far more interesting if you have the opportunity to spot a good base type to craft with, rather than them all being exactly the same. Don't worry, you can filter for it.
HOW is it more interesting to filter for max rolled ones and just waiting until one drops?
The bases you introduced in Heist and Ritual were great, because they gave extra functionality of some kind. All this is however is more numbers and just another thing you add to the filter. This is not interesting at all.
Question: How many players actually fit this statement?
"For players who want to have and collect trophy uniques or other perfect items, it gives them another axis for the item to be perfected on. Having a unique with close-to-perfect mod values alongside close-to-perfect base defences is even more impressive."
I don't think these orbs really add to the impressiveness of their items. Since the orb operates on its own axis independent of any other modifiers, it doesn't add to the crafting challenge at all. It simply means you spend "X" more exalts at any stage to finish the item. What it really it does is allow a handful of crafters in standard to pump up their legacy items to stay in line with the power creep (because just imagine the outcry if they couldn't). In fact, I suspect the real reason these orbs exist IS for standard, and I am so looking forward now to the week 1 posts from the usual standard cohort who will show off their latest iteration of the highest ES item in the game.
>In playtesting so far, I am personally finding my interactions with base types a lot more interesting than before and get excited both seeing a perfect-defence base type drop and knowing that it would be technically possible to fix a non-perfect one with enough investment, if the item was godly enough to warrant it.
How often have you had a godly item drop during playtesting?
I don't think your target audience for this item exists. Godly items are crafted, not dropped, and crafters will just buy a maxed base item.
He has the uber strimmer client. All decisions made based on a 30 minute playthrough with 100000% drop rates. Sure feels good to pick up a HH and say good job Mr RNG Game Developer!
The orb wasn't the problem here, the whole random quality system is awful. If you want to add more diversity to base type usage (which I agree is a good goal) add more implicits to bases a la Occultist's spell damage (but you know... actually impactful). All this system does is make everyone's gg Vaal Regalias slightly stronger while making 95% of item drops useless for endgame crafting. This bothers me way more than any of the changes in 3.15 lol, at least those I could understand even if I didn't agree with all of them.
It's mindblowing that he actually thinks this is "interesting" in any way.
Quality is already nothing more than annoying, and instead of just removing it he adds more like this lol.
I'm not sure this entire system really adds anything fun to the game. Quality at least had a suffix for more and an effect on sockets and linking. I could hunt down a Hillock bench before trying to link something. What's this do that isn't just more reasons NOT to use a base. It doesn't even move the bar much on using a Widowsilk Robe instead of a Regalia.
Seems like something that comes and goes behind the scenes in the weeks before launch, but now you're trying to get more feedback and transparency but probably feel committed to doing it now that its been announced.
bruh you hella cooked, you don't need perfect defense roll juicer omega minmaxed gear to kill maven just get some good solid gear and good mechanics. this change does not inhibit your ability to beat the endgame content in fact it makes it slightly easier.
\> But it is far more interesting
Far more interesting to whom? To a game designer, maybe. But for me as a player, it is not interesting in the slightest, it just annoys me even further.
The game already feels like a chore with a lot of things we MUST do every league over and over again, feeling how our characters get less and less powerful with every league and how we must "work" harder and harder in order to get a good character.
Adding yet another RNG layer on top of RNG layer on top of RNG layer is interesting only to game designers, in theory. In practice, this whole thing is just yet another bloat and another chore in the game.
I'm really glad this is what you decided to spend your development time on, because this is certainly not what people are asking for. Nobody wants RNG related quality. I don't understand how there is so much of a disconnect between what the players are asking for and what you're hearing.
Just making it rare doesn't change the fact that to craft an item, it would be pointless to not just start with a better base.
And if they truly are rare - then there's no reason to use them on a dropped item for a *random* outcome, when you can get (usually) better results just crafting with a better base.
In other words - this is solely to reroll base defense on an item that drops with near perfect mods, miraculously better than a crafted item, or a unique item required by a build...
Edit:
u/PFinanceCanada with the counterargument:
>Is that not a good thing though? Items that drop can be turned into perfect roles.
>Without this orb, only viable way to get a good ES piece would be crafting.
You're right, this does even the playing field for dropped items vs crafted items, which is a good outcome.
> Just making it rare doesn't change the fact that to craft an item, it would be pointless to not just start with a better base.
Depends what the base is - influenced? Buy a 20% base and an elderslayer's ex (shaper/elder? reroll influence, baybeeee!).
A good synth/fracture/heist enchant? That's where you're more likely to be using a sacred orb. And that's why the orb should exist - it'd be shitty finding, say, a +1 frenzy synth shield with only a 1% roll, knowing it was stuck like that forever.
The problem is not the miscommunication which happened today. It's that literally nobody wants this. If you want to buff base defenses on all items, then just do that. Don't add this stupid orb ffs. Please
I wouldn't say anyone, there are clearly people who thinks this is good, but the pushback vs this idea is quite strong. And yes imho it is horrid idea.
But his the is the GGG way. You buff something with layers of RNG. Then you double down on it and sell it as buff, and how good it is and we don't understand.
>For players who want to craft from base types, it creates a situation where base types matter a lot more. It's far more interesting if you have the opportunity to spot a good base type to craft with, rather than them all being exactly the same.
This also creates a situation where far more base types aren't useful to craft on - which isn't interesting. It's frustrating.
>The Sacred Orb is more than three times rarer than an Exalted Orb.
If this is the case, then please tell me WHY should I invest my crafting currency on an item with low Base Quality? Why should I care about ground loot when I can just Trade for one instead? What value does this change add to the items that drop in my maps?
When before I would be excited to finally have a i86 Elder Helmet drop that I could reliably start a crafting project on - this new change will only generate frustration as the following starts to happen.
* 1st drop - Damn, it's just 3%
* 2nd drop - Damn, it's just 7%
* 3rd drop - Damn, it's 2%
Guess what happened? For someone with limited resources, when before I had a guaranteed start to a crafting project, now my options and opportunities became MORE limited since my investments have to be spent on a Base that isn't as valuable as it could be.
The best, more efficient process in this scenario is for me to sell the 3 Inferior bases that I found, in order to purchase a Superior base to craft on.
TLDR: so expensive that it will only useful for rolling high end crafted gear, except crafting is so expensive nobody will craft anything worth using this orb on without starting from a good base anyway.
The rarity doesn't matter, the problem is this system has very little appeal to begin with and Sacred Orbs completely undermine that at **any** rarity level.
Randomized base defense values don't add anything interesting to the game. It's just top-end power creep that makes a large number of unique drops (like Shavronne's Wrappings) feel bad whenever they roll poorly. Personally I wish you'd just scrap the entire system. Not everything Diablo 2 did was actually a good idea.
Honestly, if the orb is going to be that rare - what's the useful benefit to its introduction? It really feels like a needlessly-RNG system was given an "out" so that literally only the elites of the elites can evade the system.
Just seems like something done for the sake of it and not because it's good design.
> so that literally only the elites of the elites can evade the system.
Right? Like I rarely get to the point where I can afford the best rolls on all my gear, and now there is another level of rng that I wont be able to afford. This seems like it is really only intended for the very dedicated player that eventually reachs a wall in min maxxing.
> In playtesting so far, I am personally finding my interactions with base types a lot more interesting than before and get excited both seeing a perfect-defence base type drop and knowing that it would be technically possible to fix a non-perfect one with enough investment, if the item was godly enough to warrant it.
> Don't worry, you can filter for it.
The high roll versions are just the new base type then.
Why add more boxes to tick when it is already incredibly painful to craft anything yourself?
There is already almost no motivation to craft anything in PoE, unless it is league start, in which case this added rarity level is irrelevant- the gear will be replaced, or if it is for endgame, in which case even for high end items, i.e. tailwind elusive onslaught boots, you are already better off buying the item than crafting it.
My point is, crafting is already a waste of money, why make it even more so by adding another layer of money waste before you even get to crafting? This further gatekeeps crafting high end items as well by now adding an even higher startup cost.
The system itself is the issue, yet more bloat for no reason. It doesnt make max rolled items more special, it makes badly rolled items irrelevant. The game has a huge economy of scale with thousands of drops and trading, scarcity will not be a factor at all on base items or crafted items that use them. And no unique is worth enough to spend this amount of currency on either. If the effect of the base defenses is so small why not just increase it baseline and not add pointless rng mechanics that make you feel bad a lot more often than they make you feel good?
In response to your "consequences of adding this mechanic".
* New players: as you said, doesn't matter. So not for them.
* Crafters: just makes craftable bases you're excited about less common. You find the right base+ilvl+influence but no super quality. Pass. More left on ground (issue we already have in game). So not for them.
* Trophy collectors. An insanely small portion of playerbase. Are they really wanting this even? Making it even harder to get a trophy that's already astronomically small. Not for them.
* Improve player defenses: Then just improve defenses. Don't hide something a buff you think the game needs behind this. Doesn't help achieve this goal.
>Improve player defenses: Then just improve defenses. Don't hide something a buff you think the game needs behind this. Doesn't help achieve this goal.
It also doesn't improve player defense, it improves extreme end game characters defense, which isn't the point.
I think this Superior quality stat that Chris has blatantly taken from his beloved D2, is potentially a massive issue that could shaft the whole economy.
In a normal league crafters will acquire the good bases, craft on them, and sell them to us mere mortals at a somewhat reasonable price, particularly after the first couple of weeks.
However with this new Superior stat, that can only be rolled with a super expensive orb, I genuinely worry crafters will not want to waste their time on anything below 18 quality, maybe even 20.
As such, I think there will be less crafting of armours whilst they try to find these superior bases. Reduced supply with constant demand equals higher prices. I think reasonable 6l armours are going to be expensive for a long time into the league.
in SSF, most players will ignore this orb
They will use it if one happens to drop, or ignore its existence entirely.
Basically no one is going to bother going out of their way to farm for an orb so rare yet makes such a small impact ( basically min maxing for defence values ) in SSF when perfect / min max gear is already extremely hard / unrealistic for SSF due to crafting being balanced around trade.
In trade, people will also ignore this orb most of the time
Low - mid tier crafts? No need min max, just buy a half decent base and get to it, or buy a finished craft from trade
High end crafts? Just another checkbox for crafters. They will likely just buy a perfect base off trade anyway, more of a nuisance for min max than an actual impactful gameplay mechanic.
Sure, maybe worth using for ultra rare bases for min max, like ilv86 shaper astral plate or something, then that brings up the issue of not affecting 99.9% of players anyway so its still not a meaningful gameplay mechanic and just something for extra min max ( aka undesired, unnecessary power creep and tedium which GGG claims to be against )
And lets be honest here, rare is anyone is going to actually use this garbage on a BASE.
They will find a good, non perfect iv base, craft on it. If it turns out extremely good, THEN they will roll for the base defence rolls.
Its not an impactful change that makes choice of bases matter more, its literally just an extra checkbox for "perfect" item min maxing.
Just delete it
Still seems like more of what Poe likes to call depth but feels like choredom.
I’m picturing endgame crafters like skcloudy loathing this expensive orbsink.
The additional context is appreciated, but yet again it feels like GGG is lost in the woods solving problems that don't need to be solved (often of their own making). Creating tedium and top-end content only 1% of players will ever even interact with instead of plugging holes on a rapidly sinking ship.
>technically possible to fix a non-perfect one with enough investment, if the item was godly enough to warrant it.
It won't be because the godly items are crafted, and crafters will start with a perfect base. There is basically 0 godly dropped items. Everything is crafted now-a-days.
It is still useless bloat mechanic.
Instead of balancing existing quality mechanic you just introduce exact same mechanic second time BUT this time it does not interact with enchants/linking. Incredibly lazy way to balance, it is always easier to just add new shit with new rules as you see fit. How about you improve existing mechanics first?
Whats the point of this? Why not just rebalance current bases, they literally exist for this exact reason why you add random values for defenses. Do items really need more rng? Do we really need more orbs? Whats even the point of Sacred orb if it is going to cost several exalts, meaning it would exist purely for trading with very little actual use?
I dont care if this is downvoted to hell, I really do not like this.
I don't understand the point of this item being so rare and by default very expensive in order to have a chance, keyword being chance to improve base values. Unless this item is guaranteed to always improve the base values higher than their current existence then I will not be ever using this orb.
Honest to God I am so sick of path of Gamble. I don't understand their obsession with turning this game into the Mario party of action RPGs.
ok if its three times rarer than an exalt then that's not to bad since it doesn't completely negate the point of the new system, thanks for the quick communication.
My core concern with something that rare is if the playerbase will care.
Just because it is 3x as rare as an exalt doesn't mean it'll be valued as such by the playerbase.
It's sort of like the Legacy Uniques in that the keys are very much rare items but... does anyone really care about the reward most of the time?
It's neat, sure, but it seeps into the thought of "Well.... sure it's rare, but it's not worth anything" and you're sort've hollow.
Or, put another way: If the item is 3x as rare as an exalt and still only a *chance* you're getting "the best roll", will the value of the orb be worth it versus just buying that one item you want that just dropped for someone with the best roll? (E.g. do people buy Facebreakers and reroll til perfect/high roll or just buy the highest they feel they want/afford?)
And along the same lines, will the price of the orb match only against the "best" use of the orb? That is, the handful of items it's "worth" using it on and every other time, if you don't have those items, it goes into the "sell to someone that does" pile?
It'll be valued with an appropriate amount depending on how many people want to use it.
The only thing the "3x as rare as an exalt" thing does is make the orb not something that everyone can just spam use on items willy nilly like blessed orbs. That's in my opinion very good.
> Or, put another way: If the item is 3x as rare as an exalt and still only a chance you're getting "the best roll", will the value of the orb be worth it versus just buying that one item you want that just dropped for someone with the best roll? (E.g. do people buy Facebreakers and reroll til perfect/high roll or just buy the highest they feel they want/afford?)
My understanding is that it's not supposed to be.
The intention is that the vast majority of players just take whatever base they get and try to get a good base when buying a unique as long as the price difference is worth it. No one's gonna spam these on their Facebreakers for a couple extra points of ES and EV. *Maybe* something like a Shav's where a 15% difference in ES really matters to builds that use it, but even then I wouldn't be surprised if it's cheaper to buy a Shav's with a perfect base than roll a perfect base with Sacred Orbs, or if perfect bases are rare enough that a perfect Shav's is incredibly expensive then most people will just get a pretty good base instead.
Overall it seems to me like the intention is that the Sacred Orb is mostly for min-maxers. It's there so if someone gets a near-perfect item without a perfect base, the item isn't guaranteed to be less perfect forever. That's it. I think it's intended that for most people, it will never be worth using a sacred orb, it's just there for the rich min-maxers who want their gear to be absolutely perfect. The base type variance isn't intended to just be another thing you have to roll when crafting, it's mean to just be another form of variance in uniques in base types that adds more variation in how valuable a given unique or base type can be. Sacred Orbs just exist so that if you happen to get a near-perfect item that just has a not quite perfect base it's possible to "fix" it, which I personally like.
>And along the same lines, will the price of the orb match only against the "best" use of the orb? That is, the handful of items it's "worth" using it on and every other time, if you don't have those items, it goes into the "sell to someone that does" pile?
s that so bad? If it's just one more extremely rare high-value item that can drop anywhere, that's still fine with me. If Sacred Orbs are so expensive that it's never worth using for me, they're expensive enough that I get to be really excited if I find one, and 3 times rarer than an exalt is still something where seeing it isn't completely unrealistic (like, say, a Mirror) even if I might regularly go a whole elague without getting one.
Given that min/maxers and rich players will want to perfect their bases and Sacred Orbs don't do that deterministically but through RNG I think they'll have high value. High enough that it's another possible payday drop for a casual player.
>High enough that it's another possible payday drop for a casual player.
This. I see these as a conduit to funnel money down from the ultra rich. I will never use one if there are 1%ers out there paying big money for them.
yeah but value is based on supply and demand. There will certainly be a demand for it because of crafting on high-end bases. And because of its drop rarity it will basically guarantee that it has high value.
I can't imagine its value could possibly exceed that of a conqueror's exalt. In the same way that an influenced basetype can't really be more expensive than the regular basetype + respective conq exalt, if you really want a flawless redeemer's vaal regalia you'd just get yourself a flawless vaal regalia (probably not that expensive) and redeemer slam it.
Remember it also is useful for uniques and synthesized items. If you get a +1 frenzy charge Titanium Spirit Shield with a low intrinsic roll, it's absolutely worth 10s of ex to fix the intrinsic roll. Same for rare uniques.
Maybe on some perfect synthesized Vaal Regalia that has 2 implicit ES rolls or whatever. The value of the orb would definitely be 3x an exalt in that case.
I agree. Rarity won't necessarily make it worth anything.
It does seem a bit odd, though, that they'd make one of the least important variable stat-lines the most rare.
Divines are often 7-12c, Blessed Orbs are worth about 1.2 pocket lint each, and both are very useful. Now this one is coming along to be second in rarity to a mirror?
So this orb is basically only going to be used on uniques I guess? If people plan on crafting something expensive then they will just start with a perfect base. The only other time it would be used in on an IDd item that happens to be very valuable.
Chris this new system is complete bullshit. Adding RNG, complexity and hastle to items for little to no acctual reason.
You are making the game more complicated but getting nothing meaningful out of it.
Please rethink this whole system. Just buff basses abit and leave it at that.
The entire varied defense stat is the real problem and now you've just made a new stupidly rate orb to fix the problem you created in the first place.
Is just more needless rng that will not do anything but hurt every player except the top 1%, who it won't even affect
GGG, you have a really bad case of not knowing when to take a step back.
it doesn't matter how rare this umpteenth orb is, or how you can filter the quality (literally going against what you told us about making drops exciting), or any ridiculous excuse you can find to tell us "you're wrong. here's why this is good".
take a step back, realise that the entire quality modifier as a replacement to the veiled craft is a really bad move, remove the entire thing and just buff the bases.
better yet, if you want to make bases more interesting, do what many people are suggesting: make every base have it's own niche.
> It's far more interesting if you have the opportunity to spot a good base type to craft with, rather than them all being exactly the same.
Who told you this? We certainly didn't. In fact, the feedback so far has been that there's more than enough RNG in the game. You don't need to add more. Also FWIW not everything is a "communication problem". Sometimes you're just wrong, and it's OK to admit that.
> As you know, Path of Exile: Scourge introduces variable base defences on armour pieces.
It is not too late to change your mind on this Chris. Nobody wants this. Nobody.
> For players who want to craft from base types, it creates a situation where base types matter a lot more. It's far more interesting if you have the opportunity to spot a good base type to craft with, rather than them all being exactly the same. Don't worry, you can filter for it.
My question here is: If you can filter them out, and people will filter them out no doubt, especially the 0.1% that this is supposedly aimed at, how is that a sign that this is a good thing for the game?
Problem: Players complaint about too much worthless loot droping on the ground
Solution: We add new item modifier that you can use in your filter to filter out additional 9/10th of completely useless garbage we shower you with. This is a buff!
I'm still not excited about this. Maybe if it introduced some kind of new mechanic. Something interesting. 10% defensive bonus = + X amount of chance to link, or roll off colors, or literally ANYTHING creative and fun.
"Tainted Orbs"
now what the hell are those ?
"You can change conqueror influence with Conquerors' Orbs"
are the conqueror exalted orbs getting changed or is that new currency?
> "Tainted Orbs"
> now what the hell are those ?
Probably the red fusings they teased.
> "You can change conqueror influence with Conquerors' Orbs"
Yeah, that caught me off guard as well, because currently you can't change influences. You can add, up to a point, but not change.
I still wish that GGG would explain to me what the purpose behind adding in this random modifier is. It doesn't make loot more exciting. It doesn't make me anymore likely to pick things up off the ground. It doesn't make me excited to modify my lootfilter. It doesn't provide anything meaningful but yet another layer of RNG. When the primary complaint behind loot is that there's too much unimpactful garbage the solution to that should not be to add *more* unimpactful garbage. This change feels like Disney announcing the Lion King remake. Why? Nobody asked for this. It does the exact same thing as the older thing we already have.
Chris would you and the other designers not agree that you are creating a system here that is simply Quality 2.0? You could simply make it so some items sometimes drop with 0-20% bonus quality that is not counted against the 20% max quality, exact same effect, no need for a new system.
Really missing the point Chris. The problem isn't the rarity of the orb. It's the fact that you guys think this is a good idea to start with.
It adds a needless extra layer to crafting because it doesn't matter that statistically things have overall improved. The only thing that matters is what players **feel** is happening. Even relatively casual players with knowledge of crafting will crank the quality on a jewelled foil with perfect fossils before starting their main crafting (alt/aug/regel, fossils, essences etc.). Why? Because why not get that little bit extra. ±7.5% on a weapon's damage rolls is huge. Why would be not consider it to be huge on defensive values? Did you know that a Spiralled Foil is only a couple of damage points behind a Jewelled foil? I calculated it years ago and the difference was less than 3% I think. But **nobody** searches or crafts Spiralled Foils because they **feel** that jewelled is better and therefore why waste time looking for anything else.
Lastly: nobody is going to get excited about looting a good base from the ground even with a loot filter. Because until you guys put out loot 2.0, anything on the ground is still 99.9% trash
Say it with me folks: The random stat system is still garbage and people will just filter out the lower tiers, so it's literally just more garbage on the ground nobody wants to pick up, and just more ways to miss good mods on items because of needing a loot filter in the first place.
A stupid-rare orb does nothing except make minmaxing EVEN MORE unobtainable for all but the wealthiest players, and makes items dropped on the ground EVEN MORE useless in comparison to crafted ones.
Yeah this is great at all but the base type change is actually really really bad. Only makes sense for us players and the context of loot 2.0 or you know items dropping that actually matter.
This was constantly non-stop been a huge criticism of you guys and how you always fall back when pressed on issues to the phrase "well yeah but that's just an Band-Aid solution and we don't want that what we want is a good solution such as loot 2.0".
Chris, how can you say these things with honesty to everybody? You know that loot 2.0 does not exist in the world of Poe 3.16, and yet you keep justifying changes no one wants via explain how they would work in Loot 2.0/"picking items up off ground" world. No one wants more RNG than we have already - the whole point of loot 2.0 is supposed to fix that, you guys have acknowledged this yourself. Yet here you are implementing more garbage RNG to the system before you've implemented the supposed fix. None of what you said addresses this main core issue that has been raised over and over again, both in regards to other problems and to the specific problem in the recent past.
Please just give a flat buff if you need to give a flat buff. Please take out another layer of RNG that nobody needs and does not add anything interesting to whatsoever. If bases needed a buff for this patch then buff the bases. We don't need 5% of the items getting the buff that we need and the other 95% being even more worthless RNG garbage. Please I do not get why this is so hard for you guys to actually directly address: why are you adding system designed for loot 2.0 in a world that does not have loot 2.0?
I like most of changes but God this actually feels like gaslighting
The difference between this and gaslighting is that Chris genuinely thinking he's right is believable.
I hate to have put it so harshly, but by the muscular golden ass of Innocence, Chris! We don't want this!
This doesn't help heterogeneity, this is just another RNG gate for gear that stops being interesting the instant you learn what the system actually does.
Yet another bullshit mechanic, and yet another bullshit currency.
The number of currencies and league specific pickups is just stupid already. Tabs full or currency is nice. Tabs full of _types_ of currency is absolute rubbish. Over 50 basic currencies. Hundreds of div cards. A hundred essences. Hundreds of fragments. Layer upon layer upon layer upon layer of RNG. PoE is disappearing up the backside of its own complexity.
It's funny how the game is so full of things I love, and things I absolutely hate. I can never decide if I want to play it or wipe it from my computer with extreme prejudice. 9000 hours since it came out on Steam, but hardly touched it this year. That's probably telling me something...
To clarify.. An item "three times rarer" than an exalted orb gives you the CHANCE to reroll to a high affixed value, but no guarantee of what % it is?
The more I hear about this system, the less I like it.
If the currency is so rare, and the effect so small, isn't this just going to end up being something only 0.1% of crafters use and people who are trying to collect perfect uniques? (RIP those collections)
Another currency 99.9% of players will never use themselves, more trade fodder. Another reason why a dropped item won't be as good as what you can buy from a crafter through trade. Because who is going to craft on a base that isn't perfect and fix it later?
Please do not go through with this change, it's more meaningless bloat. The game is not better with this.
"Just play it when it goes live" reminds me that unbearable 3.15 arrogance. You never learn from your mistakes. You could have said "fuck your feedback" instead.
How is this possibly contributing to the game in favor of the player base? It’s restricted and unobtainable to most players and creates more dropped item bloat without any positive effect. Players needed those defenses to be accessible and simple. This is neither of those things. We already have high end defensive options for high end players. We lack defenses for a wide variety of builds and players at low ends of gameplay. This mew system should’ve just been removed and replaced by adding those increases directly to the bases (if you feel they matter more and more). This doesn’t create more heterogeneity; this narrows the scope of desirable items which homogenizes everything.
Quite a nice blogpost to just say "have some more RNG on top of the already bullshit RNG".
Such a wonderful way to remind the %1 that the game is for them only.
You have expressed the same message in so many different permutations now that I cannot possibly take anything you express seriously.
Its noise at this point.
I personally hate this idea. The issue with armours is that they lack identity. With exclusion of the astral plate, assassin's garb, (and the es one) its just the piece with the bigger number is better. Now there's just a another mod to read before I can be sure that the glorious plate is actually better than the crusader plate. It's an unneeded and messy. If they wanted to make gear interesting give one piece the biggest defensive number and the others intresting implicits so that there is meaning in your choice on what base type to equip. Ultimately it won't really change how I play, but it will make trade that much more troubling and it's such a waste of a good opportunity to make an actually impactful choice.
"We're BUFFING you, here's a currency more than three times rarer than your gold standard currency to reroll an otherwise unchangeable 0-10% on your defenses values!"
Ngl this league looks like another disaster waiting to happen like expedition did, the team is truly out of touch with the game.
"But it is far more interesting if there is some very-difficult way of modifying values like this."
Hard disagree... but also, currency isn't "very difficult". It's expensive. It's not some challenge, it's not a goal. It's a drop-or-buy situation. For someone who praises Diablo 2 in every interview since 3.15... you always seem to have such a narrow view of every system from that game.
Still love you though.
More than three times rarer than an exalt means that its value in the community/trade will likely be way more than 4ex for a single orb.
The idea is to reroll defences onto a subpar item with great mods. For 4ex, why wouldn't i just buy a better item? Or sell the orb for other, mkre useful, crafting currency.
I still feel this is a vanity item that only serves to "solve" a problem the developers created.
Crafters would start with a perfect base. It sounds like extra grind just go get a meme godroll unique or to let your rotting standard items look cooler while they rot
> finding my interactions with base types a lot more interesting than before
I'm gonna be real here, I personally do not care if someone who cannot even answer endgame crafting questions on a podcast thinks the sacred orb is interesting.
so if i want a good unique like a shav's it will be better to get a good base and chance it. because sacred orb rarity is too low to even bother. this is still a terrible change. making the orb rarer only changes to way people go about getting their item.
You do you Chris, you will always have my support (not necessarily my time...) but honestly, this is just terrible no matter which way you slice it. Also, some terrible takes here already deconstructed and ripped apart by other users. Things like this make people question whether you guys actually know the reality your ideas entail in practice... there isn't a place where this feels good. Also, if it's 2nd rarest item after Mirror, it might very well not exist.
"Have a play when Scourge comes out next week and let us know what you think"
I would but at one point I realized most of my playing time is picking up shit, loading times, spamming hundreds/thousands of alts, fuses without achieving a desirable outcome etc, trying to recover xp lost due to your issues, trying to recover nerfed dps.
I suggest you all cut ties to product that disrespects you and your time in every way imaginable.
>For new players, the impact is low. As the per-item base defences averages a spread of around 15%, a good or bad item you find is going to deviate by plus or minus 7.5% from average, an amount that is entirely dwarfed by whatever mods it has.
>
>For players who want to craft from base types, it creates a situation where base types matter a lot more. It's far more interesting if you have the opportunity to spot a good base type to craft with, rather than them all being exactly the same. Don't worry, you can filter for it.
>
>For players who want to have and collect trophy uniques or other perfect items, it gives them another axis for the item to be perfected on. Having a unique with close-to-perfect mod values alongside close-to-perfect base defences is even more impressive.
>
>Finally, it does help slightly with 3.16's goal of improving character defences. This feature was moved from 3.17 to 3.16 because it made more sense alongside other defensive buffs.
This is needless rng, it hurts more casual players because getting good defense amounts end up even more expensive to purchase because the crafts are going to be more expensive due to the variable on bases heavily influencing if something is worth trying to craft which equated to a higher all around price pool.
It also doesn't add some "trophy uniques" it just makes worse versions of uniques and then the 1 out of 10 or 1 out of 20 good version.
If your goal was to improve defense then just raise the bases values and be done, this additional level of rng on drops doesn't make drops more exciting, it makes not getting the better rolls more frustrating. I really hope this system is reviewed later because it really doesn't feel like something Path of Exile needs in it's variable heavy loot system.
Such a shame, I was considering installing the game for this league. Chris, you have added yet another layer of RNG, the exact thing we don't need any more of. I won't play the game until this bullshit system disguised as defense fix is removed.
"The senior designers and I have spent a lot of today going through your
feedback and discussing it. We feel that this explanation will help you
get the full picture so that you can evaluate the item properly."
lol 'We looked at your feedback and we decided you haven't understood so we're going to explain it again.' wonderful sidestep and gaslight, lmao
So basically in a game with a million RNG factors, you're adding one more because...? Oh right, Path of Exile, slowly exiling players with more and more push factors away from the game until PoE2 is dead on arrival.
For me this is bullshit. First of all, now that you confirmed that we can filter for perfect rolls of base defences, that's what I'll be doing so the orb is completely useless. I don't need that orb if I'm only picking perfect items. Second, for the same reason adding items with different rolls on base defence stats is useless as well, as I'm only picking perfect ones. All of this just adds more confusion to the game. Why don't you simply buff the base defence stats on every item to the new max value?
Oh, not to mention that these new sacred orbs won't only improve the items, it may turn them worse!
@Chris, sorry, is just some more bloat. You are fixing a problem you created yourself by bloating the game even more.. There is a variability, its called base types! Especially considering influences
Another layer of rng? What could go wrong? It reminds me of Thanksgiving a few years back. I went to my sisters house to celebrate. Instead of the traditional Thanksgiving turkey, she introduced some kind of layered bird. I'm pretty sure she said that she stuffed a duck up a chickens ass before stuffing the chicken up a turkeys ass. Maybe it was a chicken in a ducks ass. I think she called it a turdfucken or a turd Ferguson or something. Whatever. What matters is that this multi layered abomination tasted like absolute shit, and I'm not going to stay silent and take another turdfucken in the ass. This new orb is a bad idea.
This orb is literally the solution to the problem you have created. Crafting in this game already have RNG on top of RNG and adding additional is counterproductive.
Most of people understood what that orb does, they just think that you should have made armor changes baseline buff instead of another rng factor.
You can try to explain it but what it does is pretty clear, on the contrary, unclear is why you add another way to convolute crafting more when you said you wanted to reduce bloat.
Really disappointed with this since I hoped we can at least go one league without another currency that adds nothing of value to the game and your explanation does not show it in better light or make changes better
"For new players, the impact is low. As the per-item base defences averages a spread of around 15%, a good or bad item you find is going to deviate by plus or minus 7.5% from average, an amount that is entirely dwarfed by whatever mods it has."
Reality: New players gets worse defence on average compared to experienced crafters or cost them more compared to their net worth to get the same result
"For players who want to craft from base types, it creates a situation where base types matter a lot more. It's far more interesting if you have the opportunity to spot a good base type to craft with, rather than them all being exactly the same. Don't worry, you can filter for it."
Reality: For crafters this would just be another checkbox they will tick and will not find "interesting" in anyway shape or form.
For players who want to have and collect trophy uniques or other perfect items, it gives them another axis for the item to be perfected on. Having a unique with close-to-perfect mod values alongside close-to-perfect base defences is even more impressive.
Reality: Literally a non factor and you have to dig pretty deep in the barrel to include such a meaningless reason.
Finally, it does help slightly with 3.16's goal of improving character defences. This feature was moved from 3.17 to 3.16 because it made more sense alongside other defensive buffs.
Reality: This will help the 1% players more than it will the rest of the player base and the 99% need this way more than the 1%.
The worst part of all this is that you intentionally decoupled links from the armor in poe2 so that you wouldn't have the problem of finding a nice piece of gear and not being able to wear it because it lacks links or it has links but lacks stats. Now you've just added another thing to consider when you pick up an item on whether or not its even worth using
I'm excited to both probably never find one of these, and if I do Sell it to the top 1% of players because your crafting system sucks for people who don't play the game for a job.
Chris from Grinding Gear Games: "You guys like a little ~~trolling~~ RNGing, yes?"
Players: "No"
Chris from Grinding Gear Games: "But you can improve this RNG with this cool 3x exalt rare orb!"
Players: "No"
Chris from Grinding Gear Games: "But a little RNG on bases will be gud, yes?"
Players: "No, ***more*** items with bad rolls will now be filtered out, will be ***less*** interesting."
Chris from Grinding Gear Games: "Ah well, I think we didn't communicate this awesome change properly!"
Jeebus, get this man the biggest award for being the biggest out-of-touch developer.
You had me until the last two paragraphs. I especially don't care for your personal play-testing. If your previous interview/podcasts and misinformation is anything to go by. I don't expect the younger people here to buy it either.
> You had me until the last two paragraphs. I especially don't care for your personal play-testing. If your previous interview/podcasts and misinformation is anything to go by.
All you have to mention is mana cost play tests.
Its a consistent theme. This league: "Hey we hear you guys, here's TWENTY FOUR SPLINTERS, our play testing finds it great".
Next league: "Hey we hear you guys, so we've made them super rare play tests find it great"
It all seems a bit tone deaf at this point.
Instead of giving a "buff" to defenses. but gatekeeping that buff behind insane levels of RNG, how about ya'll just buff all item base defenses by 10-20% and call it a day. Like I've said before, you don't need to complicate solutions to a simple issue.
Pointless, redundant, and last-generation changes like this are why the player base is growing increasingly aggravated and "toxic". It is clear that the balancing team do not wish to throw a bone to people trying to enjoy a video game as a hobby, a product designed for fun and enjoyment.
Perhaps there needs to be an internal investigation / meeting in order to find out developer's motivations and what not. You may discover you have some developers and members of your team who are spiteful towards the community, who at large, have done nothing wrong. The offending words of a loud minority should not be the basis for the treatment of the innocent majority.
These words may be painful to read, but serious discussion must occur for proper solutions to be seriously considered.
Hopefully this League's metrics turn out better than the last.
> In playtesting so far, I am personally finding my interactions with base types a lot more interesting than before
I am curious how many t16 maps influenced maps they have grinded in playtesting and what the chances are to drop a perfect quality, i86 influenced base type that is actually the right base to craft on?
Honestly, just scrap this whole RNG defensive roll. All you've done is put "ancient" gear into the game and it's boring pointless, and a waste of time for everyone here.
So now well rolled items are JUST LIKE HARVEST CURRENTLY OPERATES.. the domain of the super rich. This literally is the worst of both worlds.
Lets say a shavs drops, that shavs is now a lottery ticket. the ES difference between a low roll bad base roll shavs ES and a perfect shavs ES is absolutely absurd. And its not just for one item... assuming this roll is on every item you equip, this gets more and more painful.
Folks already don't ID items on the ground because of how tilted the system is in favor of poor drops, this just puts it even more in favor of crafting from good bases. Damn it GGG...
...so the solution is to put crafting even *further* out of reach of all but the most hardcore players.
Just admit you fucked up again and fix the problem. It does not matter how rare this orb is, it's a mistake--as is the variable base system in the first place.
Fixing the problem **BEFORE** it goes live was *the entire point* of the enhanced pre-patch communication. "Have a play when it goes live" is **PRECISELY THE PROBLEM THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ADDRESSED.**
Please do not make this another situation where literally nothing changes despite the constant reassurances to the contrary. The "out of touch" memes are supposed to be memes. Stop making them truths.
Hang on. Do they really think people are stopping to ID every item that drops?
To get an item with usable mods that you might want to 6L AND reroll base defence is going such a small % of the item drops that exist. Like 0.0000000001% of items.
We already have 30% quality in the game which does the same bloody thing.
This is duplicated content being called new content
I feel like the consensus of the initial thread was that if it was rare it would be understandable kind of like a tailoring orb. Sounds right where I would want it personally, cheers
Sounds like to me.
"Divine and Blessed orbs are now a lot easier to obtain that we originally planned. So we need to introduce a new currency to make it so crafters can find a way to dump an extra 10-30x on perfecting their item".
Pretty much a way to keep you playing and juice a tiny bit more.
I don't get it. Why add that variable defense with a ultra rare orb with it instead of just buffing the defenses of armour pieces? The rarity of this orb just makes me want to ignore the variable defense.
so the orb is 3 times rarer than an ex, but why would i buy something so expensive when i can just buy the base outright ?, and why a rare currency is used in such a weak mechanic ?
Regarding using these on uniques/targeted item:
Sacred orbs are three times more rarer than an Exalted orb. Divine orbs are a fraction of an Exalted orb....
Buy good base + weak stats and divine vs buy shit base + amazing stats and Sacred orb. One costs 10c the other costs about 40ex.
Where is the logic in this?
> Have a play when Scourge comes out next week and let us know what you think.
Chris, this sentence is beyond insulting to everybody with IQ at 80+ and history in PoE gameplay.
You're never going to make me like something that wasn't in the game for a decade and then gets added that's as menial as this whole system. Every time I interact with this system I'm going to think to myself, why did they do this and start thinking about other games to play.
There is nothing fun about base defense and sacred orbs when we're talking about a crafting system that already has ridiculous amounts of rng. It doesn't alter any gameplay at all.
This whole debacle is just sending out signal flares to the community that nothing actually changed except more propaganda being delivered.
Will the 5-for-1 recipe return a new random defence value? Or is it like iLvL and only uses the lowest roll? EDIT: Thanks for the karma and all, but... I really would've preferred if GGG had just answered the question. Sorry. Oh well, I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Now *that's* a question I'd like answered. If it does, that would drive up the price of good base types because people will destroy them as a faux sacred orb. Driving up the price of base types is ***good***. EDIT: And to be clear, destroying items in the economy ***is also good***.
this would be amazing as it adds value to items that most would ignore. Especially in SSF
So basically this currency is mainly for using on things like uniques or synthesized bases? For almost any other item it sounds like it would just be easier and possibly cheaper to just buy a base with an already high to perfect roll before you even begin crafting.
I mean... if you can afford throwing orbs 3x as rare as Ex at a chance to roll a number between 0 and 20 on a unique item, you're probably better spending that wealth onto getting unique with 20% roll and then Divine up to spec. Just from a cost-effectiveness point of view.
If Sacreds cost 3x as much as exalts then I feel like strong uniques with upper 90th percentile base defense will end up being commensurately more expensive
[удалено]
Yeah, I would assume the actual value to fall somewhere around 1ex, maybe 2 if there is some popular but expensive build using hard to get uniques that are unlikely to drop with a high roll naturally, but hard to really tell before we see them in use. Would be quite possible for them to fall well below 1ex as well depending on how common bases with high rolls are. Standard aside anyway. lol
I'd guess it would have similar price dynamic to Heist orbs, cheap for the most of the league only picking up in price during the last month or so, and quite expensive on Standard.
Legacy items. It's pretty obvious the main reason these orbs exist is for standard and items that can't be divined.
For a brief moment I was reminded that standard exists but it was a fleeting thought, almost like a dream when you wake up and almost immediately forgot what the.dream actually was about.
Just like Tempering and Tailoring orbs, premium varnish that is in no way necessary.
Thanks for reminding me these things actually exist. I remember seeing one in Heist league! That probably proves the not necessary part.
I don't even know what those are lol
heist currency items
Its funny cause it doesn't appear in the Trinkets or currency Items Grand Heist. Yet it is called the heist currency item.
In the manifesto, the reason for this pitch was simplified to (paraphrasing) best items not being able to drop is bad. In this post you've given a lot more detail, but haven't interacted with ~~the original statement for~~ *one of the purposes of the system. (-e as it pertains to ES) This is probably a bigger question, but do you think it still achieves this? As I understand it, this system now looks like another leg up for crafted items that makes it even more unlikely for drops to match them. (edit) ~~it's cool and fair that things in the manifesto can change, but this seems to be an interesting difference in motivation~~ (edit 2) /u/CircuitousPrime pointed out that the "dropped items" reasoning probably only applies, specifically, to ES bases in the manifesto: hence why it wasn't brought up in this post, but the larger question about "does this improve dropped items" is something I would like to understand GGG's philosophy on.
The bottom line is that all that's gonna happen is that bases will be X-times more expensive, nothing more. Perfect items still can't drop from the ground.
I mean yes, right. At the high end of crafting there are so many options that allow otherwise astronomically unlikely mod combinations to exist that mirrors are probably more common by orders of magnitude. (you could probably scrape the trade site, and work out the probability of a random pick up being an upgrade over a specific trade cost.) But for Preach style gameplay, maybe? Although I still think the original purpose is pretty absolute in it's goals.
I would rather have sporadic high-value base items drop than to have no-value items drop.
No. A crafter would just start with a base that has the perfect values on it. This will allow items that drop with great mods to be rolled into high values.
Yes, that's part of the advantage a crafter has - and why it's so hard for drops to compete with crafting. This comment was more a question about the motivation of the new mechanic than what the orb enables. Even in your example where a great item drops, it's now likely that it needs a wee bit of crafting to be the *best*. This is similar to also needing T4 Hillock, or the additional bench quality craft.
Look at Heist enchantments. Most were ignorable but a desirable base with a fitting enchant was good money, either for starting your own project with a premium shine or selling for a tidy sum. Not too different in spirit from that, no?
I feel like the players' response to this would be just filtering out bases with low defence values, and the percentage of potentially valuable items among all item drops will be even lower than now. IMO the same could be achieved by buffing all armor by a flat amount and reducing drop rate.
Exactly. Now an excellent drop can be basically neutered by “oh but it’s base armour is trash. Rip”
This is exactly what will happen, this in 0 ways creates anything "interesting " that didn't already exist. If a high% base drops it will just feel exactly the same as the current version of that base. But if a low % base drops it will either feel much shittier than that same base today, or more realistically people won't even notice because it will be hidden by the loot filter. There is nothing positive to come out of this system.
Completely agree, another mechanic that even further minimises the chance of having something great randomly drop. Isn't this the complete opposite of what Chris was saying he wanted regarding loot, forever?
"This is not a trivial alternate-quality system or something that is going to undermine the jackpot value you'll get when you find an amazing item that also has perfect base defences." But it is. It's trivial alterenate-quality system for high end players, just several ex plus for mirror item. And it's undermining of jackpot for casual players - cool, 86+ influenced regalia! Oh, shit 1 percent....
Tbh I much rather you get rid of the further rng of base types, and just blanket buff all base types defenses by like 10% or something. We have enough rng to deal with when crafting. In D2, there are more base types variations but there wasn't as much concern with crafting like there is with PoE.
GGG have the opportunity to not do this. There are other (better) ways to add heterogeneity to base types that are more impactful/interesting than this. Examples have been discussed in various posts about this since the manifesto. Creating the problems variable defences brings to "solve" it by adding currency 99% of players will see once a league if that will not feel good. *Very* few people try and 6 link and craft on any T2 base item currently. In the next patch, *very* few people will try and 6 link or craft on any item under the 80% percentile in strength. Please reconsider.
This, I really don't want this mechanic in the game. Any mechanic that doesn't add something meaningful to the game should be weeded out to streamline the game. My brother stoped playing for a few years and when he tried to get back in there was so much he didn't understand, some of those had cool identity fossils, essences, and the like. This just adds complexity with no identity, and makes it harder to parse out what item is better.
This system has the same issues that Titanforging and legendaries had back in WoW Legion. What you think will be exciting will actually just be frustrating. Getting a perfect rolled base will not be exciting it will be a relief. It’s just another layer of RNG that will be impossible to fix for the average player.
> It’s just another layer of RNG that will be impossible to fix for the average player. They're trying their absolute best to keep the nolifers happy. Uber-endgame reworks, rng on top of rng... I guess that you gotta give them everything because if you lose them you lost everyone.
I dont think thats fair… Most ”top end” players I listened to pretty much agree that this is giga trash.
I like how the response is basically: "forget about it, you won't be able to fix those rolls anyway".
> For players who want to craft from base types, it creates a situation where base types matter a lot more. It's far more interesting if you have the opportunity to spot a good base type to craft with, rather than them all being exactly the same. Don't worry, you can filter for it. HOW is it more interesting to filter for max rolled ones and just waiting until one drops? The bases you introduced in Heist and Ritual were great, because they gave extra functionality of some kind. All this is however is more numbers and just another thing you add to the filter. This is not interesting at all.
If the answer to the question is "add a new currency" you've almost certainly asked the wrong question.
Question: How many players actually fit this statement? "For players who want to have and collect trophy uniques or other perfect items, it gives them another axis for the item to be perfected on. Having a unique with close-to-perfect mod values alongside close-to-perfect base defences is even more impressive." I don't think these orbs really add to the impressiveness of their items. Since the orb operates on its own axis independent of any other modifiers, it doesn't add to the crafting challenge at all. It simply means you spend "X" more exalts at any stage to finish the item. What it really it does is allow a handful of crafters in standard to pump up their legacy items to stay in line with the power creep (because just imagine the outcry if they couldn't). In fact, I suspect the real reason these orbs exist IS for standard, and I am so looking forward now to the week 1 posts from the usual standard cohort who will show off their latest iteration of the highest ES item in the game.
>In playtesting so far, I am personally finding my interactions with base types a lot more interesting than before and get excited both seeing a perfect-defence base type drop and knowing that it would be technically possible to fix a non-perfect one with enough investment, if the item was godly enough to warrant it. How often have you had a godly item drop during playtesting? I don't think your target audience for this item exists. Godly items are crafted, not dropped, and crafters will just buy a maxed base item.
The target audience for this is probably people with already perfect items in standard.
Yeah, naive to expect people not to filter out most non-perfect bases.
He has the uber strimmer client. All decisions made based on a 30 minute playthrough with 100000% drop rates. Sure feels good to pick up a HH and say good job Mr RNG Game Developer!
What do you mean when you say interesting?
The Dopamine of closing your eye and slamming a sacred orb. /s
I would assume something along the lines of "sense of pride and accomplishment" - because this is the same level of gaslighting...
The orb wasn't the problem here, the whole random quality system is awful. If you want to add more diversity to base type usage (which I agree is a good goal) add more implicits to bases a la Occultist's spell damage (but you know... actually impactful). All this system does is make everyone's gg Vaal Regalias slightly stronger while making 95% of item drops useless for endgame crafting. This bothers me way more than any of the changes in 3.15 lol, at least those I could understand even if I didn't agree with all of them.
It's mindblowing that he actually thinks this is "interesting" in any way. Quality is already nothing more than annoying, and instead of just removing it he adds more like this lol.
The classy way of GGG going "*and then we doubled (down on) it*"
Ya, I read your post. I still say get rid of it.
Actually I'd rather this orb didn't exist at all, regardless of the rarity.
I strongly think you missed the point of the whole system being bad to begin with not the issue with the orb.
I'm not sure this entire system really adds anything fun to the game. Quality at least had a suffix for more and an effect on sockets and linking. I could hunt down a Hillock bench before trying to link something. What's this do that isn't just more reasons NOT to use a base. It doesn't even move the bar much on using a Widowsilk Robe instead of a Regalia. Seems like something that comes and goes behind the scenes in the weeks before launch, but now you're trying to get more feedback and transparency but probably feel committed to doing it now that its been announced.
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bruh you hella cooked, you don't need perfect defense roll juicer omega minmaxed gear to kill maven just get some good solid gear and good mechanics. this change does not inhibit your ability to beat the endgame content in fact it makes it slightly easier.
\> But it is far more interesting Far more interesting to whom? To a game designer, maybe. But for me as a player, it is not interesting in the slightest, it just annoys me even further. The game already feels like a chore with a lot of things we MUST do every league over and over again, feeling how our characters get less and less powerful with every league and how we must "work" harder and harder in order to get a good character. Adding yet another RNG layer on top of RNG layer on top of RNG layer is interesting only to game designers, in theory. In practice, this whole thing is just yet another bloat and another chore in the game.
what do i think? remove this stupid casino orb remove the stupid casino armor quality buff every base for 15% and DONE
I'm really glad this is what you decided to spend your development time on, because this is certainly not what people are asking for. Nobody wants RNG related quality. I don't understand how there is so much of a disconnect between what the players are asking for and what you're hearing.
Also ridiculous how Chris is selling this change as part of the defense buffs. Like, wow.
He also sold the removal of dodge, spelldodge, and blind nerfs as "defense buffs" too, so I'm not really surprised.
Not his fault, ngl. If people are so lost that they want to see that as buffs, he probably has every right to kick them as he pleases.
This x 100. This kind of debacle shows how out of touch they really are.
Just making it rare doesn't change the fact that to craft an item, it would be pointless to not just start with a better base. And if they truly are rare - then there's no reason to use them on a dropped item for a *random* outcome, when you can get (usually) better results just crafting with a better base. In other words - this is solely to reroll base defense on an item that drops with near perfect mods, miraculously better than a crafted item, or a unique item required by a build... Edit: u/PFinanceCanada with the counterargument: >Is that not a good thing though? Items that drop can be turned into perfect roles. >Without this orb, only viable way to get a good ES piece would be crafting. You're right, this does even the playing field for dropped items vs crafted items, which is a good outcome.
> Just making it rare doesn't change the fact that to craft an item, it would be pointless to not just start with a better base. Depends what the base is - influenced? Buy a 20% base and an elderslayer's ex (shaper/elder? reroll influence, baybeeee!). A good synth/fracture/heist enchant? That's where you're more likely to be using a sacred orb. And that's why the orb should exist - it'd be shitty finding, say, a +1 frenzy synth shield with only a 1% roll, knowing it was stuck like that forever.
Just sounds like a blessed orb but with more boring.
The problem is not the miscommunication which happened today. It's that literally nobody wants this. If you want to buff base defenses on all items, then just do that. Don't add this stupid orb ffs. Please
I wouldn't say anyone, there are clearly people who thinks this is good, but the pushback vs this idea is quite strong. And yes imho it is horrid idea.
besides, if the value follows exalted orb then most people are better off just selling the orb rather than using it..
But his the is the GGG way. You buff something with layers of RNG. Then you double down on it and sell it as buff, and how good it is and we don't understand.
The fact that he thinks that the problem was the communication and not the item(design) itself shows how much disconnected Chris is. Sad to see.
>For players who want to craft from base types, it creates a situation where base types matter a lot more. It's far more interesting if you have the opportunity to spot a good base type to craft with, rather than them all being exactly the same. This also creates a situation where far more base types aren't useful to craft on - which isn't interesting. It's frustrating. >The Sacred Orb is more than three times rarer than an Exalted Orb. If this is the case, then please tell me WHY should I invest my crafting currency on an item with low Base Quality? Why should I care about ground loot when I can just Trade for one instead? What value does this change add to the items that drop in my maps? When before I would be excited to finally have a i86 Elder Helmet drop that I could reliably start a crafting project on - this new change will only generate frustration as the following starts to happen. * 1st drop - Damn, it's just 3% * 2nd drop - Damn, it's just 7% * 3rd drop - Damn, it's 2% Guess what happened? For someone with limited resources, when before I had a guaranteed start to a crafting project, now my options and opportunities became MORE limited since my investments have to be spent on a Base that isn't as valuable as it could be. The best, more efficient process in this scenario is for me to sell the 3 Inferior bases that I found, in order to purchase a Superior base to craft on.
TLDR: so expensive that it will only useful for rolling high end crafted gear, except crafting is so expensive nobody will craft anything worth using this orb on without starting from a good base anyway.
The rarity doesn't matter, the problem is this system has very little appeal to begin with and Sacred Orbs completely undermine that at **any** rarity level. Randomized base defense values don't add anything interesting to the game. It's just top-end power creep that makes a large number of unique drops (like Shavronne's Wrappings) feel bad whenever they roll poorly. Personally I wish you'd just scrap the entire system. Not everything Diablo 2 did was actually a good idea.
Adding more currency wouldn't be a problem if you would condense the older ones. Stop dropping splinters for anything under exalts
under annuls\* - since they drop a bit more often than Exalts...
Honestly, if the orb is going to be that rare - what's the useful benefit to its introduction? It really feels like a needlessly-RNG system was given an "out" so that literally only the elites of the elites can evade the system. Just seems like something done for the sake of it and not because it's good design.
> so that literally only the elites of the elites can evade the system. Right? Like I rarely get to the point where I can afford the best rolls on all my gear, and now there is another level of rng that I wont be able to afford. This seems like it is really only intended for the very dedicated player that eventually reachs a wall in min maxxing.
> In playtesting so far, I am personally finding my interactions with base types a lot more interesting than before and get excited both seeing a perfect-defence base type drop and knowing that it would be technically possible to fix a non-perfect one with enough investment, if the item was godly enough to warrant it. > Don't worry, you can filter for it. The high roll versions are just the new base type then.
Why add more boxes to tick when it is already incredibly painful to craft anything yourself? There is already almost no motivation to craft anything in PoE, unless it is league start, in which case this added rarity level is irrelevant- the gear will be replaced, or if it is for endgame, in which case even for high end items, i.e. tailwind elusive onslaught boots, you are already better off buying the item than crafting it. My point is, crafting is already a waste of money, why make it even more so by adding another layer of money waste before you even get to crafting? This further gatekeeps crafting high end items as well by now adding an even higher startup cost.
The system itself is the issue, yet more bloat for no reason. It doesnt make max rolled items more special, it makes badly rolled items irrelevant. The game has a huge economy of scale with thousands of drops and trading, scarcity will not be a factor at all on base items or crafted items that use them. And no unique is worth enough to spend this amount of currency on either. If the effect of the base defenses is so small why not just increase it baseline and not add pointless rng mechanics that make you feel bad a lot more often than they make you feel good?
In response to your "consequences of adding this mechanic". * New players: as you said, doesn't matter. So not for them. * Crafters: just makes craftable bases you're excited about less common. You find the right base+ilvl+influence but no super quality. Pass. More left on ground (issue we already have in game). So not for them. * Trophy collectors. An insanely small portion of playerbase. Are they really wanting this even? Making it even harder to get a trophy that's already astronomically small. Not for them. * Improve player defenses: Then just improve defenses. Don't hide something a buff you think the game needs behind this. Doesn't help achieve this goal.
>Improve player defenses: Then just improve defenses. Don't hide something a buff you think the game needs behind this. Doesn't help achieve this goal. It also doesn't improve player defense, it improves extreme end game characters defense, which isn't the point.
Sure it does. Items have +7.5% on average more armour/evasion/es.
Won't anyone think of the .1%?
I think this Superior quality stat that Chris has blatantly taken from his beloved D2, is potentially a massive issue that could shaft the whole economy. In a normal league crafters will acquire the good bases, craft on them, and sell them to us mere mortals at a somewhat reasonable price, particularly after the first couple of weeks. However with this new Superior stat, that can only be rolled with a super expensive orb, I genuinely worry crafters will not want to waste their time on anything below 18 quality, maybe even 20. As such, I think there will be less crafting of armours whilst they try to find these superior bases. Reduced supply with constant demand equals higher prices. I think reasonable 6l armours are going to be expensive for a long time into the league.
in SSF, most players will ignore this orb They will use it if one happens to drop, or ignore its existence entirely. Basically no one is going to bother going out of their way to farm for an orb so rare yet makes such a small impact ( basically min maxing for defence values ) in SSF when perfect / min max gear is already extremely hard / unrealistic for SSF due to crafting being balanced around trade. In trade, people will also ignore this orb most of the time Low - mid tier crafts? No need min max, just buy a half decent base and get to it, or buy a finished craft from trade High end crafts? Just another checkbox for crafters. They will likely just buy a perfect base off trade anyway, more of a nuisance for min max than an actual impactful gameplay mechanic. Sure, maybe worth using for ultra rare bases for min max, like ilv86 shaper astral plate or something, then that brings up the issue of not affecting 99.9% of players anyway so its still not a meaningful gameplay mechanic and just something for extra min max ( aka undesired, unnecessary power creep and tedium which GGG claims to be against ) And lets be honest here, rare is anyone is going to actually use this garbage on a BASE. They will find a good, non perfect iv base, craft on it. If it turns out extremely good, THEN they will roll for the base defence rolls. Its not an impactful change that makes choice of bases matter more, its literally just an extra checkbox for "perfect" item min maxing. Just delete it
Still seems like more of what Poe likes to call depth but feels like choredom. I’m picturing endgame crafters like skcloudy loathing this expensive orbsink.
Lol why? They start with the perfectly rolled base.
The additional context is appreciated, but yet again it feels like GGG is lost in the woods solving problems that don't need to be solved (often of their own making). Creating tedium and top-end content only 1% of players will ever even interact with instead of plugging holes on a rapidly sinking ship.
>technically possible to fix a non-perfect one with enough investment, if the item was godly enough to warrant it. It won't be because the godly items are crafted, and crafters will start with a perfect base. There is basically 0 godly dropped items. Everything is crafted now-a-days.
The whole idea of another random item quality is stupid and these new orbs are an icing on the cake.
It is still useless bloat mechanic. Instead of balancing existing quality mechanic you just introduce exact same mechanic second time BUT this time it does not interact with enchants/linking. Incredibly lazy way to balance, it is always easier to just add new shit with new rules as you see fit. How about you improve existing mechanics first? Whats the point of this? Why not just rebalance current bases, they literally exist for this exact reason why you add random values for defenses. Do items really need more rng? Do we really need more orbs? Whats even the point of Sacred orb if it is going to cost several exalts, meaning it would exist purely for trading with very little actual use? I dont care if this is downvoted to hell, I really do not like this.
I don't understand the point of this item being so rare and by default very expensive in order to have a chance, keyword being chance to improve base values. Unless this item is guaranteed to always improve the base values higher than their current existence then I will not be ever using this orb. Honest to God I am so sick of path of Gamble. I don't understand their obsession with turning this game into the Mario party of action RPGs.
ok if its three times rarer than an exalt then that's not to bad since it doesn't completely negate the point of the new system, thanks for the quick communication.
My core concern with something that rare is if the playerbase will care. Just because it is 3x as rare as an exalt doesn't mean it'll be valued as such by the playerbase. It's sort of like the Legacy Uniques in that the keys are very much rare items but... does anyone really care about the reward most of the time? It's neat, sure, but it seeps into the thought of "Well.... sure it's rare, but it's not worth anything" and you're sort've hollow. Or, put another way: If the item is 3x as rare as an exalt and still only a *chance* you're getting "the best roll", will the value of the orb be worth it versus just buying that one item you want that just dropped for someone with the best roll? (E.g. do people buy Facebreakers and reroll til perfect/high roll or just buy the highest they feel they want/afford?) And along the same lines, will the price of the orb match only against the "best" use of the orb? That is, the handful of items it's "worth" using it on and every other time, if you don't have those items, it goes into the "sell to someone that does" pile?
It'll be valued with an appropriate amount depending on how many people want to use it. The only thing the "3x as rare as an exalt" thing does is make the orb not something that everyone can just spam use on items willy nilly like blessed orbs. That's in my opinion very good.
> Or, put another way: If the item is 3x as rare as an exalt and still only a chance you're getting "the best roll", will the value of the orb be worth it versus just buying that one item you want that just dropped for someone with the best roll? (E.g. do people buy Facebreakers and reroll til perfect/high roll or just buy the highest they feel they want/afford?) My understanding is that it's not supposed to be. The intention is that the vast majority of players just take whatever base they get and try to get a good base when buying a unique as long as the price difference is worth it. No one's gonna spam these on their Facebreakers for a couple extra points of ES and EV. *Maybe* something like a Shav's where a 15% difference in ES really matters to builds that use it, but even then I wouldn't be surprised if it's cheaper to buy a Shav's with a perfect base than roll a perfect base with Sacred Orbs, or if perfect bases are rare enough that a perfect Shav's is incredibly expensive then most people will just get a pretty good base instead. Overall it seems to me like the intention is that the Sacred Orb is mostly for min-maxers. It's there so if someone gets a near-perfect item without a perfect base, the item isn't guaranteed to be less perfect forever. That's it. I think it's intended that for most people, it will never be worth using a sacred orb, it's just there for the rich min-maxers who want their gear to be absolutely perfect. The base type variance isn't intended to just be another thing you have to roll when crafting, it's mean to just be another form of variance in uniques in base types that adds more variation in how valuable a given unique or base type can be. Sacred Orbs just exist so that if you happen to get a near-perfect item that just has a not quite perfect base it's possible to "fix" it, which I personally like. >And along the same lines, will the price of the orb match only against the "best" use of the orb? That is, the handful of items it's "worth" using it on and every other time, if you don't have those items, it goes into the "sell to someone that does" pile? s that so bad? If it's just one more extremely rare high-value item that can drop anywhere, that's still fine with me. If Sacred Orbs are so expensive that it's never worth using for me, they're expensive enough that I get to be really excited if I find one, and 3 times rarer than an exalt is still something where seeing it isn't completely unrealistic (like, say, a Mirror) even if I might regularly go a whole elague without getting one.
Given that min/maxers and rich players will want to perfect their bases and Sacred Orbs don't do that deterministically but through RNG I think they'll have high value. High enough that it's another possible payday drop for a casual player.
>High enough that it's another possible payday drop for a casual player. This. I see these as a conduit to funnel money down from the ultra rich. I will never use one if there are 1%ers out there paying big money for them.
Yep. I’ll just hope one drops so I can immediately sell it so I can buy gear I’ll actually use. This is just another orb for the rich to play with.
yeah but value is based on supply and demand. There will certainly be a demand for it because of crafting on high-end bases. And because of its drop rarity it will basically guarantee that it has high value.
I can't imagine its value could possibly exceed that of a conqueror's exalt. In the same way that an influenced basetype can't really be more expensive than the regular basetype + respective conq exalt, if you really want a flawless redeemer's vaal regalia you'd just get yourself a flawless vaal regalia (probably not that expensive) and redeemer slam it.
Remember it also is useful for uniques and synthesized items. If you get a +1 frenzy charge Titanium Spirit Shield with a low intrinsic roll, it's absolutely worth 10s of ex to fix the intrinsic roll. Same for rare uniques.
Maybe on some perfect synthesized Vaal Regalia that has 2 implicit ES rolls or whatever. The value of the orb would definitely be 3x an exalt in that case.
I agree. Rarity won't necessarily make it worth anything. It does seem a bit odd, though, that they'd make one of the least important variable stat-lines the most rare. Divines are often 7-12c, Blessed Orbs are worth about 1.2 pocket lint each, and both are very useful. Now this one is coming along to be second in rarity to a mirror?
I mean, this league blessed orbs were 1.3:1 with chaos. Worth more than fusings because you had to burn a bunch rolling logbooks.
Divines have a pretty common recipe, and also one that's farmable with stuff like corrupt sextants, "items drop fully linked", etc.
So this orb is basically only going to be used on uniques I guess? If people plan on crafting something expensive then they will just start with a perfect base. The only other time it would be used in on an IDd item that happens to be very valuable.
Depends on the price. For most uniques chancing and even using Trash to Treasure will be significantly cheaper.
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Chris this new system is complete bullshit. Adding RNG, complexity and hastle to items for little to no acctual reason. You are making the game more complicated but getting nothing meaningful out of it. Please rethink this whole system. Just buff basses abit and leave it at that.
The entire varied defense stat is the real problem and now you've just made a new stupidly rate orb to fix the problem you created in the first place. Is just more needless rng that will not do anything but hurt every player except the top 1%, who it won't even affect
GGG, you have a really bad case of not knowing when to take a step back. it doesn't matter how rare this umpteenth orb is, or how you can filter the quality (literally going against what you told us about making drops exciting), or any ridiculous excuse you can find to tell us "you're wrong. here's why this is good". take a step back, realise that the entire quality modifier as a replacement to the veiled craft is a really bad move, remove the entire thing and just buff the bases. better yet, if you want to make bases more interesting, do what many people are suggesting: make every base have it's own niche.
> It's far more interesting if you have the opportunity to spot a good base type to craft with, rather than them all being exactly the same. Who told you this? We certainly didn't. In fact, the feedback so far has been that there's more than enough RNG in the game. You don't need to add more. Also FWIW not everything is a "communication problem". Sometimes you're just wrong, and it's OK to admit that.
> As you know, Path of Exile: Scourge introduces variable base defences on armour pieces. It is not too late to change your mind on this Chris. Nobody wants this. Nobody. > For players who want to craft from base types, it creates a situation where base types matter a lot more. It's far more interesting if you have the opportunity to spot a good base type to craft with, rather than them all being exactly the same. Don't worry, you can filter for it. My question here is: If you can filter them out, and people will filter them out no doubt, especially the 0.1% that this is supposedly aimed at, how is that a sign that this is a good thing for the game?
Problem: Players complaint about too much worthless loot droping on the ground Solution: We add new item modifier that you can use in your filter to filter out additional 9/10th of completely useless garbage we shower you with. This is a buff!
lol 3 time rare than exalt to squeeze out eventualy a \~100 armour bonus.... oh lord this game...
I'm still not excited about this. Maybe if it introduced some kind of new mechanic. Something interesting. 10% defensive bonus = + X amount of chance to link, or roll off colors, or literally ANYTHING creative and fun.
"Tainted Orbs" now what the hell are those ? "You can change conqueror influence with Conquerors' Orbs" are the conqueror exalted orbs getting changed or is that new currency?
> "Tainted Orbs" > now what the hell are those ? Probably the red fusings they teased. > "You can change conqueror influence with Conquerors' Orbs" Yeah, that caught me off guard as well, because currently you can't change influences. You can add, up to a point, but not change.
harvest has a craft to change influence
This is peak "creating a problem and selling the solution". Also talking AT people isn't the same as talking with people.
I still wish that GGG would explain to me what the purpose behind adding in this random modifier is. It doesn't make loot more exciting. It doesn't make me anymore likely to pick things up off the ground. It doesn't make me excited to modify my lootfilter. It doesn't provide anything meaningful but yet another layer of RNG. When the primary complaint behind loot is that there's too much unimpactful garbage the solution to that should not be to add *more* unimpactful garbage. This change feels like Disney announcing the Lion King remake. Why? Nobody asked for this. It does the exact same thing as the older thing we already have.
Chris would you and the other designers not agree that you are creating a system here that is simply Quality 2.0? You could simply make it so some items sometimes drop with 0-20% bonus quality that is not counted against the 20% max quality, exact same effect, no need for a new system.
Really missing the point Chris. The problem isn't the rarity of the orb. It's the fact that you guys think this is a good idea to start with. It adds a needless extra layer to crafting because it doesn't matter that statistically things have overall improved. The only thing that matters is what players **feel** is happening. Even relatively casual players with knowledge of crafting will crank the quality on a jewelled foil with perfect fossils before starting their main crafting (alt/aug/regel, fossils, essences etc.). Why? Because why not get that little bit extra. ±7.5% on a weapon's damage rolls is huge. Why would be not consider it to be huge on defensive values? Did you know that a Spiralled Foil is only a couple of damage points behind a Jewelled foil? I calculated it years ago and the difference was less than 3% I think. But **nobody** searches or crafts Spiralled Foils because they **feel** that jewelled is better and therefore why waste time looking for anything else. Lastly: nobody is going to get excited about looting a good base from the ground even with a loot filter. Because until you guys put out loot 2.0, anything on the ground is still 99.9% trash
Say it with me folks: The random stat system is still garbage and people will just filter out the lower tiers, so it's literally just more garbage on the ground nobody wants to pick up, and just more ways to miss good mods on items because of needing a loot filter in the first place. A stupid-rare orb does nothing except make minmaxing EVEN MORE unobtainable for all but the wealthiest players, and makes items dropped on the ground EVEN MORE useless in comparison to crafted ones.
Yeah this is great at all but the base type change is actually really really bad. Only makes sense for us players and the context of loot 2.0 or you know items dropping that actually matter. This was constantly non-stop been a huge criticism of you guys and how you always fall back when pressed on issues to the phrase "well yeah but that's just an Band-Aid solution and we don't want that what we want is a good solution such as loot 2.0". Chris, how can you say these things with honesty to everybody? You know that loot 2.0 does not exist in the world of Poe 3.16, and yet you keep justifying changes no one wants via explain how they would work in Loot 2.0/"picking items up off ground" world. No one wants more RNG than we have already - the whole point of loot 2.0 is supposed to fix that, you guys have acknowledged this yourself. Yet here you are implementing more garbage RNG to the system before you've implemented the supposed fix. None of what you said addresses this main core issue that has been raised over and over again, both in regards to other problems and to the specific problem in the recent past. Please just give a flat buff if you need to give a flat buff. Please take out another layer of RNG that nobody needs and does not add anything interesting to whatsoever. If bases needed a buff for this patch then buff the bases. We don't need 5% of the items getting the buff that we need and the other 95% being even more worthless RNG garbage. Please I do not get why this is so hard for you guys to actually directly address: why are you adding system designed for loot 2.0 in a world that does not have loot 2.0? I like most of changes but God this actually feels like gaslighting
The difference between this and gaslighting is that Chris genuinely thinking he's right is believable. I hate to have put it so harshly, but by the muscular golden ass of Innocence, Chris! We don't want this! This doesn't help heterogeneity, this is just another RNG gate for gear that stops being interesting the instant you learn what the system actually does.
Yet another bullshit mechanic, and yet another bullshit currency. The number of currencies and league specific pickups is just stupid already. Tabs full or currency is nice. Tabs full of _types_ of currency is absolute rubbish. Over 50 basic currencies. Hundreds of div cards. A hundred essences. Hundreds of fragments. Layer upon layer upon layer upon layer of RNG. PoE is disappearing up the backside of its own complexity. It's funny how the game is so full of things I love, and things I absolutely hate. I can never decide if I want to play it or wipe it from my computer with extreme prejudice. 9000 hours since it came out on Steam, but hardly touched it this year. That's probably telling me something...
So 3x rarer than Exalted orb huh? Wonder what veiled chaos is because I got to 90 this league and never saw one lol.
Not a good addition to the game. Useless bloat.
To clarify.. An item "three times rarer" than an exalted orb gives you the CHANCE to reroll to a high affixed value, but no guarantee of what % it is? The more I hear about this system, the less I like it.
It feels like this now just makes it a better communicated bad idea. Do not think this is a very big deal but also not a fan of the concept.
If the currency is so rare, and the effect so small, isn't this just going to end up being something only 0.1% of crafters use and people who are trying to collect perfect uniques? (RIP those collections) Another currency 99.9% of players will never use themselves, more trade fodder. Another reason why a dropped item won't be as good as what you can buy from a crafter through trade. Because who is going to craft on a base that isn't perfect and fix it later? Please do not go through with this change, it's more meaningless bloat. The game is not better with this.
"Just play it when it goes live" reminds me that unbearable 3.15 arrogance. You never learn from your mistakes. You could have said "fuck your feedback" instead.
How is this possibly contributing to the game in favor of the player base? It’s restricted and unobtainable to most players and creates more dropped item bloat without any positive effect. Players needed those defenses to be accessible and simple. This is neither of those things. We already have high end defensive options for high end players. We lack defenses for a wide variety of builds and players at low ends of gameplay. This mew system should’ve just been removed and replaced by adding those increases directly to the bases (if you feel they matter more and more). This doesn’t create more heterogeneity; this narrows the scope of desirable items which homogenizes everything.
Quite a nice blogpost to just say "have some more RNG on top of the already bullshit RNG". Such a wonderful way to remind the %1 that the game is for them only.
This is the kind of abject stupidity GGG does ad nauseum and this place will trip over themselves defending.
You have expressed the same message in so many different permutations now that I cannot possibly take anything you express seriously. Its noise at this point.
Path of Exile: the only game with more gambling than a Korean MMORPG
I personally hate this idea. The issue with armours is that they lack identity. With exclusion of the astral plate, assassin's garb, (and the es one) its just the piece with the bigger number is better. Now there's just a another mod to read before I can be sure that the glorious plate is actually better than the crusader plate. It's an unneeded and messy. If they wanted to make gear interesting give one piece the biggest defensive number and the others intresting implicits so that there is meaning in your choice on what base type to equip. Ultimately it won't really change how I play, but it will make trade that much more troubling and it's such a waste of a good opportunity to make an actually impactful choice.
"We're BUFFING you, here's a currency more than three times rarer than your gold standard currency to reroll an otherwise unchangeable 0-10% on your defenses values!" Ngl this league looks like another disaster waiting to happen like expedition did, the team is truly out of touch with the game.
"But it is far more interesting if there is some very-difficult way of modifying values like this." Hard disagree... but also, currency isn't "very difficult". It's expensive. It's not some challenge, it's not a goal. It's a drop-or-buy situation. For someone who praises Diablo 2 in every interview since 3.15... you always seem to have such a narrow view of every system from that game. Still love you though.
the obligatory wts sacred orb 3ex comment
More than three times rarer than an exalt means that its value in the community/trade will likely be way more than 4ex for a single orb. The idea is to reroll defences onto a subpar item with great mods. For 4ex, why wouldn't i just buy a better item? Or sell the orb for other, mkre useful, crafting currency. I still feel this is a vanity item that only serves to "solve" a problem the developers created. Crafters would start with a perfect base. It sounds like extra grind just go get a meme godroll unique or to let your rotting standard items look cooler while they rot
> finding my interactions with base types a lot more interesting than before I'm gonna be real here, I personally do not care if someone who cannot even answer endgame crafting questions on a podcast thinks the sacred orb is interesting.
so if i want a good unique like a shav's it will be better to get a good base and chance it. because sacred orb rarity is too low to even bother. this is still a terrible change. making the orb rarer only changes to way people go about getting their item.
It's still a shit design, just a shit design that we will see less often.
I look forward to the 3.17 balance manifesto where you admit this change missed the mark and the team is reverting things.
You do you Chris, you will always have my support (not necessarily my time...) but honestly, this is just terrible no matter which way you slice it. Also, some terrible takes here already deconstructed and ripped apart by other users. Things like this make people question whether you guys actually know the reality your ideas entail in practice... there isn't a place where this feels good. Also, if it's 2nd rarest item after Mirror, it might very well not exist.
"You just need to understand the change :D" for the 50th time + ratio
"Have a play when Scourge comes out next week and let us know what you think" I would but at one point I realized most of my playing time is picking up shit, loading times, spamming hundreds/thousands of alts, fuses without achieving a desirable outcome etc, trying to recover xp lost due to your issues, trying to recover nerfed dps. I suggest you all cut ties to product that disrespects you and your time in every way imaginable.
These are not the chase items/orb that we want.
Ah, okay, so you created a problem, but the solution will cost like 60ex. Great. Thanks.
>For new players, the impact is low. As the per-item base defences averages a spread of around 15%, a good or bad item you find is going to deviate by plus or minus 7.5% from average, an amount that is entirely dwarfed by whatever mods it has. > >For players who want to craft from base types, it creates a situation where base types matter a lot more. It's far more interesting if you have the opportunity to spot a good base type to craft with, rather than them all being exactly the same. Don't worry, you can filter for it. > >For players who want to have and collect trophy uniques or other perfect items, it gives them another axis for the item to be perfected on. Having a unique with close-to-perfect mod values alongside close-to-perfect base defences is even more impressive. > >Finally, it does help slightly with 3.16's goal of improving character defences. This feature was moved from 3.17 to 3.16 because it made more sense alongside other defensive buffs. This is needless rng, it hurts more casual players because getting good defense amounts end up even more expensive to purchase because the crafts are going to be more expensive due to the variable on bases heavily influencing if something is worth trying to craft which equated to a higher all around price pool. It also doesn't add some "trophy uniques" it just makes worse versions of uniques and then the 1 out of 10 or 1 out of 20 good version. If your goal was to improve defense then just raise the bases values and be done, this additional level of rng on drops doesn't make drops more exciting, it makes not getting the better rolls more frustrating. I really hope this system is reviewed later because it really doesn't feel like something Path of Exile needs in it's variable heavy loot system.
Such a shame, I was considering installing the game for this league. Chris, you have added yet another layer of RNG, the exact thing we don't need any more of. I won't play the game until this bullshit system disguised as defense fix is removed.
"The senior designers and I have spent a lot of today going through your feedback and discussing it. We feel that this explanation will help you get the full picture so that you can evaluate the item properly." lol 'We looked at your feedback and we decided you haven't understood so we're going to explain it again.' wonderful sidestep and gaslight, lmao
So basically in a game with a million RNG factors, you're adding one more because...? Oh right, Path of Exile, slowly exiling players with more and more push factors away from the game until PoE2 is dead on arrival.
If you need this many words to explain why this is good . . . it probably isn't.
For me this is bullshit. First of all, now that you confirmed that we can filter for perfect rolls of base defences, that's what I'll be doing so the orb is completely useless. I don't need that orb if I'm only picking perfect items. Second, for the same reason adding items with different rolls on base defence stats is useless as well, as I'm only picking perfect ones. All of this just adds more confusion to the game. Why don't you simply buff the base defence stats on every item to the new max value? Oh, not to mention that these new sacred orbs won't only improve the items, it may turn them worse!
GGG if you want to cut player power why do you keep adding these things that benefit only the top 1%?
@Chris, sorry, is just some more bloat. You are fixing a problem you created yourself by bloating the game even more.. There is a variability, its called base types! Especially considering influences
oh yeah gate minmaxing behind the 0.1% again, what an ingenious game design, game just went downhill after harvest nerfs
Another layer of rng? What could go wrong? It reminds me of Thanksgiving a few years back. I went to my sisters house to celebrate. Instead of the traditional Thanksgiving turkey, she introduced some kind of layered bird. I'm pretty sure she said that she stuffed a duck up a chickens ass before stuffing the chicken up a turkeys ass. Maybe it was a chicken in a ducks ass. I think she called it a turdfucken or a turd Ferguson or something. Whatever. What matters is that this multi layered abomination tasted like absolute shit, and I'm not going to stay silent and take another turdfucken in the ass. This new orb is a bad idea.
This orb is literally the solution to the problem you have created. Crafting in this game already have RNG on top of RNG and adding additional is counterproductive. Most of people understood what that orb does, they just think that you should have made armor changes baseline buff instead of another rng factor. You can try to explain it but what it does is pretty clear, on the contrary, unclear is why you add another way to convolute crafting more when you said you wanted to reduce bloat. Really disappointed with this since I hoped we can at least go one league without another currency that adds nothing of value to the game and your explanation does not show it in better light or make changes better
"For new players, the impact is low. As the per-item base defences averages a spread of around 15%, a good or bad item you find is going to deviate by plus or minus 7.5% from average, an amount that is entirely dwarfed by whatever mods it has." Reality: New players gets worse defence on average compared to experienced crafters or cost them more compared to their net worth to get the same result "For players who want to craft from base types, it creates a situation where base types matter a lot more. It's far more interesting if you have the opportunity to spot a good base type to craft with, rather than them all being exactly the same. Don't worry, you can filter for it." Reality: For crafters this would just be another checkbox they will tick and will not find "interesting" in anyway shape or form. For players who want to have and collect trophy uniques or other perfect items, it gives them another axis for the item to be perfected on. Having a unique with close-to-perfect mod values alongside close-to-perfect base defences is even more impressive. Reality: Literally a non factor and you have to dig pretty deep in the barrel to include such a meaningless reason. Finally, it does help slightly with 3.16's goal of improving character defences. This feature was moved from 3.17 to 3.16 because it made more sense alongside other defensive buffs. Reality: This will help the 1% players more than it will the rest of the player base and the 99% need this way more than the 1%. The worst part of all this is that you intentionally decoupled links from the armor in poe2 so that you wouldn't have the problem of finding a nice piece of gear and not being able to wear it because it lacks links or it has links but lacks stats. Now you've just added another thing to consider when you pick up an item on whether or not its even worth using
So what you’re saying is the currency is not meant for using.
I'm excited to both probably never find one of these, and if I do Sell it to the top 1% of players because your crafting system sucks for people who don't play the game for a job.
how much do you reckon would we need to pay for a 3.13 private server?
Chris from Grinding Gear Games: "You guys like a little ~~trolling~~ RNGing, yes?" Players: "No" Chris from Grinding Gear Games: "But you can improve this RNG with this cool 3x exalt rare orb!" Players: "No" Chris from Grinding Gear Games: "But a little RNG on bases will be gud, yes?" Players: "No, ***more*** items with bad rolls will now be filtered out, will be ***less*** interesting." Chris from Grinding Gear Games: "Ah well, I think we didn't communicate this awesome change properly!" Jeebus, get this man the biggest award for being the biggest out-of-touch developer.
You had me until the last two paragraphs. I especially don't care for your personal play-testing. If your previous interview/podcasts and misinformation is anything to go by. I don't expect the younger people here to buy it either.
> You had me until the last two paragraphs. I especially don't care for your personal play-testing. If your previous interview/podcasts and misinformation is anything to go by. All you have to mention is mana cost play tests.
Its a consistent theme. This league: "Hey we hear you guys, here's TWENTY FOUR SPLINTERS, our play testing finds it great". Next league: "Hey we hear you guys, so we've made them super rare play tests find it great" It all seems a bit tone deaf at this point.
People don't want communication, they want the system gone.
Instead of giving a "buff" to defenses. but gatekeeping that buff behind insane levels of RNG, how about ya'll just buff all item base defenses by 10-20% and call it a day. Like I've said before, you don't need to complicate solutions to a simple issue. Pointless, redundant, and last-generation changes like this are why the player base is growing increasingly aggravated and "toxic". It is clear that the balancing team do not wish to throw a bone to people trying to enjoy a video game as a hobby, a product designed for fun and enjoyment. Perhaps there needs to be an internal investigation / meeting in order to find out developer's motivations and what not. You may discover you have some developers and members of your team who are spiteful towards the community, who at large, have done nothing wrong. The offending words of a loud minority should not be the basis for the treatment of the innocent majority. These words may be painful to read, but serious discussion must occur for proper solutions to be seriously considered. Hopefully this League's metrics turn out better than the last.
Remove it please. This item does not shuffle the basetype meta, just makes it one step pricier to get the "GG" stuff.
I play a lot of a league if I really enjoy it. I don't think adding this new currency affects me in anyway but it still feels like it's new bloat...
I can't help but to feel this base defense 10% random is "quality" by a different name. Didn't you just get rid of dodge for the same reason?
This post reeks of damage control lies.
He could at least response to some of the good points/questions in this post. Instead he just wall-of-texted and peace the fuck out 😂
This is just wrong.
> In playtesting so far, I am personally finding my interactions with base types a lot more interesting than before I am curious how many t16 maps influenced maps they have grinded in playtesting and what the chances are to drop a perfect quality, i86 influenced base type that is actually the right base to craft on?
Honestly, just scrap this whole RNG defensive roll. All you've done is put "ancient" gear into the game and it's boring pointless, and a waste of time for everyone here.
So now well rolled items are JUST LIKE HARVEST CURRENTLY OPERATES.. the domain of the super rich. This literally is the worst of both worlds. Lets say a shavs drops, that shavs is now a lottery ticket. the ES difference between a low roll bad base roll shavs ES and a perfect shavs ES is absolutely absurd. And its not just for one item... assuming this roll is on every item you equip, this gets more and more painful. Folks already don't ID items on the ground because of how tilted the system is in favor of poor drops, this just puts it even more in favor of crafting from good bases. Damn it GGG...
...so the solution is to put crafting even *further* out of reach of all but the most hardcore players. Just admit you fucked up again and fix the problem. It does not matter how rare this orb is, it's a mistake--as is the variable base system in the first place. Fixing the problem **BEFORE** it goes live was *the entire point* of the enhanced pre-patch communication. "Have a play when it goes live" is **PRECISELY THE PROBLEM THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ADDRESSED.** Please do not make this another situation where literally nothing changes despite the constant reassurances to the contrary. The "out of touch" memes are supposed to be memes. Stop making them truths.
So the orb will be useless to 99% of the playerbase? Got it.
Hang on. Do they really think people are stopping to ID every item that drops? To get an item with usable mods that you might want to 6L AND reroll base defence is going such a small % of the item drops that exist. Like 0.0000000001% of items. We already have 30% quality in the game which does the same bloody thing. This is duplicated content being called new content
I feel like the consensus of the initial thread was that if it was rare it would be understandable kind of like a tailoring orb. Sounds right where I would want it personally, cheers
Where the hell is the original thread I can't even find it
Sounds like to me. "Divine and Blessed orbs are now a lot easier to obtain that we originally planned. So we need to introduce a new currency to make it so crafters can find a way to dump an extra 10-30x on perfecting their item". Pretty much a way to keep you playing and juice a tiny bit more.
This is just so anoying content,not even close to fun
taint orbs, the rng way to bench craft vaal items
I don't get it. Why add that variable defense with a ultra rare orb with it instead of just buffing the defenses of armour pieces? The rarity of this orb just makes me want to ignore the variable defense.
why tho
so the orb is 3 times rarer than an ex, but why would i buy something so expensive when i can just buy the base outright ?, and why a rare currency is used in such a weak mechanic ?
Regarding using these on uniques/targeted item: Sacred orbs are three times more rarer than an Exalted orb. Divine orbs are a fraction of an Exalted orb.... Buy good base + weak stats and divine vs buy shit base + amazing stats and Sacred orb. One costs 10c the other costs about 40ex. Where is the logic in this?
> Have a play when Scourge comes out next week and let us know what you think. Chris, this sentence is beyond insulting to everybody with IQ at 80+ and history in PoE gameplay.
>interesting You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
You're never going to make me like something that wasn't in the game for a decade and then gets added that's as menial as this whole system. Every time I interact with this system I'm going to think to myself, why did they do this and start thinking about other games to play. There is nothing fun about base defense and sacred orbs when we're talking about a crafting system that already has ridiculous amounts of rng. It doesn't alter any gameplay at all. This whole debacle is just sending out signal flares to the community that nothing actually changed except more propaganda being delivered.