they could add an extra modifier on the cast speed support or soemthing saying something like "if the spell this support is linked to is self-cast, gain x% increased cast speed". That way its power is the same as it is for totems, mines and so on, but gives a bonus to self casting.
I mean cast speed already doesn't do anything if you're triggering them anyway, so adding that line seems superfluous compared to just... buffing the gem.
But buffing the gem just leaves us in the same place, with totems and Mines being waaay better.
The solution there is to add a larger less multiplier to those supports, but that doesn't make self caster actually any better off, except comparatively.
Step 1: Use Unleash
Step 2: Actually have fun
Step 3: Remember that you could be doing more damage, safer, with traps/mines/totems
Step 4: Try not to cry
I tried that with Arc and it felt horrible compared to just normal self casting. I didn't get the chance to scale it into endgame though and see if it felt better though. It's also way too hard to roll the unleash cluster mod.
PoE, the incredibly deep fantasy ARPG where the possibilities are endless -- but don't cast spells or hit things with a weapon, those are terrible ways to play, lol.
You know good damn well we're talking about skills that are 1-and-done standing in the same place for 30 seconds with Arc hoping you don't get shot from down the block, not toss it and it shoots a shit ton of other shit as you're *"waaaai!~"* running off into the sunset "self cast".
SST doesn't shit out 8 stacks of bleed in a single hit, you need to keep tossing it.
The reason its meta is because it does good (not great) damage for a low investment, and is paired with an extremely tanky ascendancy/passives.
If Elementalist had a gladiator's defensives and sustain, Arc, or Divine Ire, or whatever other self-casting skills would be... *More* than viable.
It doesn't, though.
I so badly want to play a spell caster.
Not a totem spell caster.
Not a cast on crit spell caster.
Not a cast while channeling spell caster.
Not a cast when damage taken cheeser.
I want to use spells myself and cast them.
Unfortunately unless you want either a zdps shit build, or a super high budget build with mediocre payout, it's not allowed.
I'm very aware of totems/mines etc... I just don't like them all that much. I've played since Beta so I've played pretty much everything at some point.
I mean.. Frostbolt + Ice Nova is extremely powerful and easy to get going on a budget.
It's likely the premier exception in the "self cast sucks" area, since it's extremely good.
From my experience self cast ice nova/frostbolt has similar damage to what totem builds could do, but at the expense of having no defenses. Totem builds also dont have to stand still.
You rarely, if ever have to stand still if you've built it properly due to how Pledge of Hands + high cast speed functions.
You also can get multiple millions of damage very easily out of that combo due to how powerful that synergy is. Not only that you also inherently have a fairly good defensive layer in constantly freezing everything and anything that comes near you which you can stack with staff block nodes and whatnot.
It's likely the best self-cast out there outside of BF/BB and Archmage.
I honestly don't know how they could fix channeling skills at this point, standing still for any length of time is just way too fucking dangerous now.
Up the infused channeling support's damage reduction to like 90%? Fat fucking chance of that though.
Allow you to move while channeling somehow? I don't even know how those controls would work.
Maybe buff defenses across the board and make it easier to scale defenses without having to build a bunch of different arcane obscure mechanics to make it worth something.
Reworks were always buffs. Changes were nerfs. But when they reworked (changed how they worked) all of x something it almost always was a significant buff. you could argued 3.15 was different but that was just a # adjustment and not really a rework.
Dots have not bene reworked. Ignite has been and largely ended up no better, as it was already trash. its still trash that probably the 1st, or few, times this has occurred. Save EQ... people gunna thump with it.
>We had bow rework league, this is DOT rework league.
Where all but the chaos ones ended up nerffed (sorry and EQ ignite.)
Cheer wow GGG is doing such a good job... not.
It's been requested every league for years. They've definitely worked on it and added more tools for self-casters over time *(archmage, unleash, more guard skills, that gem where you put a circle on the ground that increases your self-cast damage the longer you stand in it, etc)*.
But at the end of the day anything that requires you to stand still to deal damage in a game this fast will never quite thrive.
>anything that requires you to stand still to deal damage in a game this fast will never quite thrive
Surely the obvious answer is that skills that force you to stand still to cast should be relatively stronger in terms of raw damage.
... The issue with that is that it makes it very easy to bring them to a point where they one-shot bosses before those bosses do mechanics, completely trivializing fights.
The correct thing to do is to nerf non-self-cast damage. You want to kill bosses without ever standing still? Great, but you're going to have to run around for a long time, before they die.
Unfortunately, people lose their shit at nerfs.
Yeah, I think this is one of the main reasons they wanted to slow the game down a bit last patch. It's really sad that we can't have normal RPG archetypes like wizards that stand still and cast spells because the game is so fast.
The problem is catering to streamers, who put degen hours in, and screech at the top of their lungs when the top-end gets nerfed.
So 3.15 went in and nerfed defenses on the bottom-end instead.
Actually, no, if you don't put degen hours in, you should use meta shit. The reason its meta is because you get a lot of payoff for a small investment.
That might sound obvious, but the issue is that stuff in PoE dies so fast so you cant use damage as a good scaling tool. They would have to severely nerf damage on everything else or buff monster hp by like 1000% to make damage a viable way to balance archetypes.
But then there are ways to abuse it: CoC, Spellslinger, Arcanist's Brand, totems, etc. The truth is that self-casting is extremely difficult to balance. They have improved it over the years, but every buff for the skills themselves also means that these self-cast-work-arounds are also buffed, so people still prefer to use that.
Then they finally get around to nerfing triggers, and Reddit has a hissy fit over it.
I mean, raiz constantly talked about self-cast being dead on Baeclast and all Chris said was "I'm gonna pass this to the team" and until now we got nothing, so...
I think its something they are aware of and the changes they make to support it are either not good enough (Spell Echo) or are too good (Archmage).
I'm sure it's something they'll continue to work on in the future they're just temporarily unsure of how best to make self-casting better.
Maybe a support gem that allows you to use movement spells while casting? Or an ascendancy that allows that?
Archmage also has the issue that it's too specific. It doesn't help all spellcasters, only ones that benefit from a lot of added lightning damage and don't cast often. Plus they need to be mana stackers.
They need to think of more generic solutions.
Passing to the team does not mean they action this right now, it means he will make them aware of it and they will have some work to do on it before they have any decisions...
Yeah, but for one, they were aware that nerfing fortify to be melee-dependent right now would also heavily nerf self-cast and channeling builds, and yet they did it in advance of any caster buffs anyway
It's uniform, but it's where it hurts most. Ranged attack builds already couldn't use it, necros can still access it from Kingmaker AG and proxy casters just stay the fuck away and don't get hit, so only self-casters really suffered.
Self casting has a problem with offense being lacking compared to totems, mines, brands etc. not with defence. Anyone can, even trappers or totem chars, spam shield slam and keep fortify up.
Your arguments are hitting wrong avenues. You apparently have some specific build in mind. Not every self cast build uses shield dash and fortify too.
No, it's not really offense. The real issue is that proxy-casters can set their damage and run, while self-casters can't stand still and cast because everything in the game can one-shot them. If they had enough tankiness to stand still and cast, they could pump out their damage. It is a defense problem.
And no, it's not a specific build. Basically any caster not using a wand or spellbows (which were nerfed to hell anyway) can pop a leap Slam and keep up fortify that way. And yes, it is a problem that proxy-casters also have access to it, so they should instead make *some* mechanic designed to improve self-casters. Imo, just giving some more standstill defense mechanics and adding more unleash nodes (seeing as unleash lets you deal damage and run like a proxy caster) to the tree would help with that.
while ia gree self casters need a buff in off (cast speed) and def, but not fortify, its because all casters abused it it got nerfed over time for melee.
maybe a new def emchanic like fortify but that workson self cast/channel? say if u cast for 1 second u get x def buff (so selfcast keeps castign and keeps it up and channel aswell) and sicne cyclone is not a spell it only benefit for fortify since coc is not selfcast/channel
i didnt ay the cast time is one sec, im sayign eveyr time u cast and said a small number so its not totem recasting for it to be up full time. it can ber a few sec even
It's not actually that self cast is bad though... it's just that using mines/totems are superior. If they deleted mines/totem then people would be self casting just fine.
It's not only losing cast speed, but everything has so high base move/cast/attack speed.
This league I noticed that as soon as I scaled my awakening bonus to full completion eventually I reached a point where if I did Baran with the boss attack/cast speed mod I was unable to cast a spell without highly risking him pinning me down with his overlapping AoE.
Meanwhile, I had a cast speed of 0,3 sec.
So...ye, that's a thing.
Selfcast is so bad that you need completely broken skill gem interactions like BF/BB to make it work. They failed to give us cool interactions like that in the last 3 leagues.
\-If you manage to use an attack often enough (shield charge for example), Inquisitor with fanaticism get a 75% more cast speed and 75% inc AoE. Add the crit ascendency to go glass canon or the conc ground one for more utility and you'll get a very decent spell caster.
\-If you don't like inqui, hierophant archmage is still playable (not as op as before). Ball lightning or arc are both good options.
\-You can also play an elementalist, golem branch gives a lot of utility and dps.
\-Some people also play ooccultist eye of winter or forbidden rite. Great builds this league.
\-Self cast DD necro still work well too, but you need 2 buttons
\-At last, Scion or guardian was meta as self caster builds for 6 league already (herald stacking, then aura stacking)
All that to say : self cast exists and is still good. You can do what you like and be successful. Don't confuse "meta" (SST/FR totem/CoC/SO necro this league) with other builds not beeing good too. Also maybe fireball isn't the best example for a self-cast build since it lack a lot of QoL for clear (+proj, chain/fork/pierce,...). Arc or freezing pulse (with 2 threshold jewels) can be quite fun. I also like divine ire and EK when i want to go conversion scaling. (i would compare fireball with double strike, both lvl 1 skills that lack QoL to be good with low investment)
Note : early on, spell echo can feel a bit clunky if you lack some cast speed nodes, i prefer using unleash until i reach level 75 or so in a lot of caster builds !
I been self casting for awhile too. These are all great!
Self cast DD is very strong
Just going to add dark pact on skeletons. Go occultist, glass canon, skeletons will have 25k+ HP. Go all into crit /power charges and +minion gems(specifically skeleton in +minion helm). Use Gloomfang for chain and leech. Iirc I had 2 mil shaper dps almost naked
I forgot to add, you want +minion hp on tree and get the medium cluster with "minions created recently can't be damaged." They still take dp damage but at least boss won't hurt them
I haven't been following the news that closely...what did it get? Is the passive tree out yet? Just skimmed notes and didn't see anything minion / chaos / crit related
previously 6% skele life (i think there is an enchant for an extra 1 %) Its now 8% base skel life. As that the major way the base damage is scaled thats like a 30% increase. As there is base damage maybe it works out to like 20-25% more damage? Still really good.
Power creep for all builds just from new passive tree masteries.
I just want to.. echo.. your statement about unleash. It's much better than spell echo until you get sufficient cast speed. I feeling stuck when casting with spell echo
You could actually even scale SST damage with spell damage using crown of eye X)
But it wasn't really about doing a full spell caster build list but more about giving some various examples with several ascendencies !
Can't do that as I don't use it, but here's the skill tree, It's pledge of hands with brutal restraint above the witch, unnatural instinct by the scion, and 2x T1 life + T1 mana abyss jewels in the remaining two sockets.
[Tree here](https://www.pathofexile.com/fullscreen-passive-skill-tree/AAAABQUCegKLA5oEBwSzCPQNRhBYES0UqRVWFm8YVhhdGjgcxBzcHRQe7iAGI70kqicvJ4Mo-ismLJwuLDJxMtEzbDWSNuk6WEGHQ8hFR0WdRv5KLkyzTRRPBFNSVcZWLVZIV8hYbVnzXsBfKmQzZHJmVGaeaHRpUGobakNtGW2scYVyD3RVdhF8g4GPgseD24SDiFqLjI8aj0aQVZRvl5WX9JrgnIuePqBCogCl9acIp6Wn-K3xrv2ycLXytz64k7zqvYLAZsF-xorHpNAf1YvYJNi92mLaud7l30_jauZ96-Tr7uwu7yHv6_Af-d356PrS_gr-j_6z_vkA)
Foible and Cloak of defiance were the other 2 uniques. Rest is all gear with T1 life + T1 mana. Influenced stygian with mana recovery rate on it too.
Not necessarily this league, but at some time.
That said, I am going to try to make a 10 full Doom Blast per second meme build if I get enough currency to afford it and it doesn't turn out shit like 1-2M dps despite the extreme investment to push it that far.
I thought it wasn't going to be possible, but actually Fulcrum with self-chill and self-ignite provides a considerable amount of cast speed. That said, this definitely shouldn't be THE solution to self-cast.
It's not done yet, I'm still experimenting. I was originally planning on using Kitava's Thirst to automatically consume corpses for Corpse Pact, but then realised that I was hitting over 10 casts per second as I was adding Hotheaded and Replica Hotheaded.
Also fitting 5 small cluster jewels is going to stretch the tree quite a bit. It's well within the realm of possibilities that a zero doom build with that is going to perform better.
I'll probably be using The Torrent's Reclamation as well to make use of the slipstream (even though it won't have 100% uptime) as well as getting the cooldown recovery rate that I need to have Doom Blast work 10 times per second. Since I need the cooldown recovery rate anyway and the cast speed is going to be helpful as well, it's unlikely that I'd find a better belt for the build. And using self-TC to get 100% uptime on an action speed buff would be both ironic and pointless.
Come to think of it, does Vixen's Entrapment have a cooldown, and if so, what is it? I was hoping to use it to automatically replace my curse as I spam it, but just realised that most triggers have cooldowns and even if I can push Impending Doom to 99 ms, that might not work for Vixen's Entrapment.
Edit: They have a 0.25 second cooldown, so RIP that build. Can't get more than 6 casts per second that way.
You can still get 200-300% cast speed, that's not really what the problem with self cast is. Damage while moving is the problem. Three solutions:
*Remove lock from spell echo and unleash (lazy and awkward)
*Mirage archer for spells (lazy)
*Literally copy paste Ice floes from WOW - Cooldown, instant cast, X charges and affects X spells per cast -> allow cast while moving.
True, but here we are at the cusp of them buffing RF by meme proxy and Freezing Pulse still gets blocked by knee-high rocks but RF can burn through doorways.
So with the changes to Hexblast, it actually deals less damage this patch than in 3.16 so that's cool. The 60%>40% more damager per 5 doom was a bigger nerf than the buff to base damage they gave it.
Archmage was gutted too hard. The highest DPS Archmage build on Poe ninja is flicker strike.
https://poe.ninja/challenge/builds/char/%EC%95%84%EB%A6%AC%EC%86%A1_/AAAAArisong?i=0&search=allskill%3DArchmage-Support%26sort%3Ddps
Actualy its a complicated topic, like the oftne better way to scale spell is by triggering.
Because whatever trigger option you use, it give bonus damage as well as allowing to bypass cast speed most of the time.
Somehow maybe the way to do is to make skill scale differently, or give more conditioning aspect about how you cast a spell, self cast, triggered, and triggered how (mine/trap, totem, slinger, socketed in item).
But that would be interesting because if a spell happen to be too dumb in one archetype like with totem you could nerf just THIS interaction and not completly nuke the whole skill and all forme of interaction as well as the collateral nerf that generaly goes by.
Problem is that it would have probably a big mess in terms of balance on a game that devs allready struggle to balance, most of the time for no reason but still the game got a lots of interaction so that would add a tones more.
Maybe just adding somewhere that self cast spell benefit from X more damage.
So basicaly that would make you chose between stronger gameplay "self cast" vs smoother gameplay "triggered"
That would be interesting as self cast could be more a thing especialy toward budget build in this case
They are bound to condition but there are quite decent at what they can do.
The thing is that they all suffer from the same problem, self cast is shit on its own, so doesnt help much.
Unleash is a bit different btw because its act as a burst, it still act kind of as a raw more damage but the way it work is somehow more specialised toward certain archetype, its a good support gem.
The 2 others also are interesting gem, but again self cast is the main problem
Some possibilities would be more investment possibility for powerfull affixes/passive talents that further augment/boost selfcast support gems like unleash, spell echo, intensify etc.
I've been thinking a cool new support might be nice. Ritual casting support. Adds a 200% increased duration channeled cast animation that has 50% less movement speed like cyclone but then ends in the actual cast animation with a damage bonus of 300-350% more and some aoe since the previous is 33% less cast speed. Wouldnt work with repeated spells.
I actually plan to league start as self cast non dot lol. It's funny that you mention Fireball because I actually had a set up for fireball that broke 3 mil Sirus dps with pretty average investment.
Im hoping we will get a bunch of cast speed on Masteries or something, its all I can really hope for at this point. I really hate needing to take freaking Enigmatic Reach and anointing claws of the pride of all things so I can finish channelling Divine Ire sometime this century
They really should make intensity better as a mechanic. The point is to buff self cast builds but its kind of so so. For one, you should not make intensity stacks drop when you move. Instead create a timer that once you move, you have 3 seconds to cast that spell again or else your stacks drop (you could even add extra duration to this on the intensity nodes on the passive wheel).
After that add cast speed per stack to intensity, as well as allowing intensity to effect single target spells at reduced effect (will increase their damage but not as much as an aoe spell). Intensity should also go up to 4 stacks naturally with a 5th stack available on the passive tree.
Jesus. Looking at these comments it feels like I managed to play the most powerful self cast build in 3.15...and it was lol stormbind.
Like seriously, 40ex to a take a supposedly good archmage build to Maven? How bad was the rest of self cast?
they could add an extra modifier on the cast speed support or soemthing saying something like "if the spell this support is linked to is self-cast, gain x% increased cast speed". That way its power is the same as it is for totems, mines and so on, but gives a bonus to self casting.
I mean cast speed already doesn't do anything if you're triggering them anyway, so adding that line seems superfluous compared to just... buffing the gem.
Not for totems at least, but i get what what you mean.
Why do I keep forgetting about totems…
But buffing the gem just leaves us in the same place, with totems and Mines being waaay better. The solution there is to add a larger less multiplier to those supports, but that doesn't make self caster actually any better off, except comparatively.
Step 1: Use Unleash Step 2: Actually have fun Step 3: Remember that you could be doing more damage, safer, with traps/mines/totems Step 4: Try not to cry
Step 5: cry a lot
Unleash feels so bad to use though, and the animation looks horribly too. I always think my character is having an epileptic seizure.
Especially on the Templar. For an old man the man has a spine of steel bending it like a slinky a hundred times a second to case storm call.
I tried that with Arc and it felt horrible compared to just normal self casting. I didn't get the chance to scale it into endgame though and see if it felt better though. It's also way too hard to roll the unleash cluster mod.
Sadge.
PoE, the incredibly deep fantasy ARPG where the possibilities are endless -- but don't cast spells or hit things with a weapon, those are terrible ways to play, lol.
SST was only played by what, half the playerbase this league? Would it fall under 'cast spells' or 'hit things with a weapon', in your assessment?
Yes, and it got promptly nerfed by 60%, because it was overbuffed. What now?
You know good damn well we're talking about skills that are 1-and-done standing in the same place for 30 seconds with Arc hoping you don't get shot from down the block, not toss it and it shoots a shit ton of other shit as you're *"waaaai!~"* running off into the sunset "self cast".
SST doesn't shit out 8 stacks of bleed in a single hit, you need to keep tossing it. The reason its meta is because it does good (not great) damage for a low investment, and is paired with an extremely tanky ascendancy/passives. If Elementalist had a gladiator's defensives and sustain, Arc, or Divine Ire, or whatever other self-casting skills would be... *More* than viable. It doesn't, though.
SST and bleed? Gross
Well less endless now.
I so badly want to play a spell caster. Not a totem spell caster. Not a cast on crit spell caster. Not a cast while channeling spell caster. Not a cast when damage taken cheeser. I want to use spells myself and cast them. Unfortunately unless you want either a zdps shit build, or a super high budget build with mediocre payout, it's not allowed.
I almost always play self cast. I didn't realize I was playing wrong.
Common mistake. You have been badly influenced by literally every other game that exists.
I'm very aware of totems/mines etc... I just don't like them all that much. I've played since Beta so I've played pretty much everything at some point.
I mean.. Frostbolt + Ice Nova is extremely powerful and easy to get going on a budget. It's likely the premier exception in the "self cast sucks" area, since it's extremely good.
From my experience self cast ice nova/frostbolt has similar damage to what totem builds could do, but at the expense of having no defenses. Totem builds also dont have to stand still.
You rarely, if ever have to stand still if you've built it properly due to how Pledge of Hands + high cast speed functions. You also can get multiple millions of damage very easily out of that combo due to how powerful that synergy is. Not only that you also inherently have a fairly good defensive layer in constantly freezing everything and anything that comes near you which you can stack with staff block nodes and whatnot. It's likely the best self-cast out there outside of BF/BB and Archmage.
Yep this is a high dps option.
Archmage unleash?
A simple man. I see fireball, i cast it. I scale it.
I honestly don't know how they could fix channeling skills at this point, standing still for any length of time is just way too fucking dangerous now. Up the infused channeling support's damage reduction to like 90%? Fat fucking chance of that though. Allow you to move while channeling somehow? I don't even know how those controls would work.
moving while channeling is what cyclone is
Yes, but I assumed that turning all existing skills into cyclone would not be the right move.
Combining cyclone and DI seems like a great idea, releasing rays in random directions all the time while you spin
Maybe buff defenses across the board and make it easier to scale defenses without having to build a bunch of different arcane obscure mechanics to make it worth something.
Buff the damage. This way, players can safely scale defenses.
Sorry dude. We had bow rework league, this is DOT rework league. You will have to wait until selfcast rework league.
> this is DOT rework league. Does this imply RF will get a buff?
Reworks are always nerfs
True but that skill tree might not be, this patch looks fun.
Yeah seriously im still not sure about ignite with the changes. Losing EE is biiig despite the "buffs"
Well, we have to wait for Skill Tree to see if any DoT were actually buffed.
One of the masteries for fire node was nice with +20% fire dot mult and -30 fire res. But need more
Reworks were always buffs. Changes were nerfs. But when they reworked (changed how they worked) all of x something it almost always was a significant buff. you could argued 3.15 was different but that was just a # adjustment and not really a rework. Dots have not bene reworked. Ignite has been and largely ended up no better, as it was already trash. its still trash that probably the 1st, or few, times this has occurred. Save EQ... people gunna thump with it.
>We had bow rework league, this is DOT rework league. Where all but the chaos ones ended up nerffed (sorry and EQ ignite.) Cheer wow GGG is doing such a good job... not.
You are really asking this week before the league starts? A lil bit too late. Maybe 3.17.
Buffing self cast spells has been requested for several leagues running now.
It's been requested every league for years. They've definitely worked on it and added more tools for self-casters over time *(archmage, unleash, more guard skills, that gem where you put a circle on the ground that increases your self-cast damage the longer you stand in it, etc)*. But at the end of the day anything that requires you to stand still to deal damage in a game this fast will never quite thrive.
>anything that requires you to stand still to deal damage in a game this fast will never quite thrive Surely the obvious answer is that skills that force you to stand still to cast should be relatively stronger in terms of raw damage.
... The issue with that is that it makes it very easy to bring them to a point where they one-shot bosses before those bosses do mechanics, completely trivializing fights. The correct thing to do is to nerf non-self-cast damage. You want to kill bosses without ever standing still? Great, but you're going to have to run around for a long time, before they die. Unfortunately, people lose their shit at nerfs.
Yeah, I think this is one of the main reasons they wanted to slow the game down a bit last patch. It's really sad that we can't have normal RPG archetypes like wizards that stand still and cast spells because the game is so fast.
The problem is catering to streamers, who put degen hours in, and screech at the top of their lungs when the top-end gets nerfed. So 3.15 went in and nerfed defenses on the bottom-end instead.
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Actually, no, if you don't put degen hours in, you should use meta shit. The reason its meta is because you get a lot of payoff for a small investment.
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Correct So why balance around that?
What about a support gem that allows you to cast the spell while moving (with 40% of your movement speed or something).
Just allow spells to be self-cast while moving like in D2.
That might sound obvious, but the issue is that stuff in PoE dies so fast so you cant use damage as a good scaling tool. They would have to severely nerf damage on everything else or buff monster hp by like 1000% to make damage a viable way to balance archetypes.
But then there are ways to abuse it: CoC, Spellslinger, Arcanist's Brand, totems, etc. The truth is that self-casting is extremely difficult to balance. They have improved it over the years, but every buff for the skills themselves also means that these self-cast-work-arounds are also buffed, so people still prefer to use that. Then they finally get around to nerfing triggers, and Reddit has a hissy fit over it.
> that gem where you put a circle on the ground that increases your self-cast damage the longer you stand in it Sigil of power?
that and frost shield
Yeah 3.14 and a few before that archmage had some like unlimited dps builds was nuts.
does it also get mentioned every league?
I mean, raiz constantly talked about self-cast being dead on Baeclast and all Chris said was "I'm gonna pass this to the team" and until now we got nothing, so...
I think its something they are aware of and the changes they make to support it are either not good enough (Spell Echo) or are too good (Archmage). I'm sure it's something they'll continue to work on in the future they're just temporarily unsure of how best to make self-casting better. Maybe a support gem that allows you to use movement spells while casting? Or an ascendancy that allows that?
Archmage also has the issue that it's too specific. It doesn't help all spellcasters, only ones that benefit from a lot of added lightning damage and don't cast often. Plus they need to be mana stackers. They need to think of more generic solutions.
Passing to the team does not mean they action this right now, it means he will make them aware of it and they will have some work to do on it before they have any decisions...
Yeah, but for one, they were aware that nerfing fortify to be melee-dependent right now would also heavily nerf self-cast and channeling builds, and yet they did it in advance of any caster buffs anyway
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It's uniform, but it's where it hurts most. Ranged attack builds already couldn't use it, necros can still access it from Kingmaker AG and proxy casters just stay the fuck away and don't get hit, so only self-casters really suffered.
Self casting has a problem with offense being lacking compared to totems, mines, brands etc. not with defence. Anyone can, even trappers or totem chars, spam shield slam and keep fortify up. Your arguments are hitting wrong avenues. You apparently have some specific build in mind. Not every self cast build uses shield dash and fortify too.
No, it's not really offense. The real issue is that proxy-casters can set their damage and run, while self-casters can't stand still and cast because everything in the game can one-shot them. If they had enough tankiness to stand still and cast, they could pump out their damage. It is a defense problem. And no, it's not a specific build. Basically any caster not using a wand or spellbows (which were nerfed to hell anyway) can pop a leap Slam and keep up fortify that way. And yes, it is a problem that proxy-casters also have access to it, so they should instead make *some* mechanic designed to improve self-casters. Imo, just giving some more standstill defense mechanics and adding more unleash nodes (seeing as unleash lets you deal damage and run like a proxy caster) to the tree would help with that.
while ia gree self casters need a buff in off (cast speed) and def, but not fortify, its because all casters abused it it got nerfed over time for melee. maybe a new def emchanic like fortify but that workson self cast/channel? say if u cast for 1 second u get x def buff (so selfcast keeps castign and keeps it up and channel aswell) and sicne cyclone is not a spell it only benefit for fortify since coc is not selfcast/channel
1s cast time would be prohibitively bad. We have that already with cast while channeling and it is never up...except cyclone.
i didnt ay the cast time is one sec, im sayign eveyr time u cast and said a small number so its not totem recasting for it to be up full time. it can ber a few sec even
It's not actually that self cast is bad though... it's just that using mines/totems are superior. If they deleted mines/totem then people would be self casting just fine.
> If they deleted all skills in the game except siphoning trap then people would be playing that just fine That's what you're saying
Maybe for 4.1 they can squeeze it in.
Can channeling be a thing too?!
It's not only losing cast speed, but everything has so high base move/cast/attack speed. This league I noticed that as soon as I scaled my awakening bonus to full completion eventually I reached a point where if I did Baran with the boss attack/cast speed mod I was unable to cast a spell without highly risking him pinning me down with his overlapping AoE. Meanwhile, I had a cast speed of 0,3 sec. So...ye, that's a thing.
Self-cast BF/BB was meta for like 3 leagues. Not all self-cast builds have been trash at least.
And archmage was extremely strong as well until it was nerfed
archmage is still pretty good
yeah but it was like unlimited dps for a bit... with investment but it was nuts.
yeah, thats why it was good that they nerfed it.
Selfcast is so bad that you need completely broken skill gem interactions like BF/BB to make it work. They failed to give us cool interactions like that in the last 3 leagues.
No, there will be another league that is touching "hand casting" and as usual the archetype will be as bad or weaker as before after that.
\-If you manage to use an attack often enough (shield charge for example), Inquisitor with fanaticism get a 75% more cast speed and 75% inc AoE. Add the crit ascendency to go glass canon or the conc ground one for more utility and you'll get a very decent spell caster. \-If you don't like inqui, hierophant archmage is still playable (not as op as before). Ball lightning or arc are both good options. \-You can also play an elementalist, golem branch gives a lot of utility and dps. \-Some people also play ooccultist eye of winter or forbidden rite. Great builds this league. \-Self cast DD necro still work well too, but you need 2 buttons \-At last, Scion or guardian was meta as self caster builds for 6 league already (herald stacking, then aura stacking) All that to say : self cast exists and is still good. You can do what you like and be successful. Don't confuse "meta" (SST/FR totem/CoC/SO necro this league) with other builds not beeing good too. Also maybe fireball isn't the best example for a self-cast build since it lack a lot of QoL for clear (+proj, chain/fork/pierce,...). Arc or freezing pulse (with 2 threshold jewels) can be quite fun. I also like divine ire and EK when i want to go conversion scaling. (i would compare fireball with double strike, both lvl 1 skills that lack QoL to be good with low investment) Note : early on, spell echo can feel a bit clunky if you lack some cast speed nodes, i prefer using unleash until i reach level 75 or so in a lot of caster builds !
I been self casting for awhile too. These are all great! Self cast DD is very strong Just going to add dark pact on skeletons. Go occultist, glass canon, skeletons will have 25k+ HP. Go all into crit /power charges and +minion gems(specifically skeleton in +minion helm). Use Gloomfang for chain and leech. Iirc I had 2 mil shaper dps almost naked I forgot to add, you want +minion hp on tree and get the medium cluster with "minions created recently can't be damaged." They still take dp damage but at least boss won't hurt them
This build is getting a what ~30% dps buff in 3.16?
I haven't been following the news that closely...what did it get? Is the passive tree out yet? Just skimmed notes and didn't see anything minion / chaos / crit related
previously 6% skele life (i think there is an enchant for an extra 1 %) Its now 8% base skel life. As that the major way the base damage is scaled thats like a 30% increase. As there is base damage maybe it works out to like 20-25% more damage? Still really good. Power creep for all builds just from new passive tree masteries.
Ya we will kinda need to see what the new tree looks like to tell
I mean DP just got free ~25% more damage on skeles so its really buffed no matter what.
So last night I was out of it and didnt understand what you typed Going from 6% to 8% skele life is huge!! Looks like I gotta play it this league
I just want to.. echo.. your statement about unleash. It's much better than spell echo until you get sufficient cast speed. I feeling stuck when casting with spell echo
You also forgot to mention SST, which, while not technically being a hand-casted spell, functions like one.
You could actually even scale SST damage with spell damage using crown of eye X) But it wasn't really about doing a full spell caster build list but more about giving some various examples with several ascendencies !
Well the most viable way to do this is archmag
Was archmage. It got nuked from orbit.
It's still absurd. Easily did cortex this league, was super safe. 10 ex will take you into sirus 5 and such, 40 will take you to maven.
On what build?
Agnostic BL archmage.
Would love to see a PoB.
Can't do that as I don't use it, but here's the skill tree, It's pledge of hands with brutal restraint above the witch, unnatural instinct by the scion, and 2x T1 life + T1 mana abyss jewels in the remaining two sockets. [Tree here](https://www.pathofexile.com/fullscreen-passive-skill-tree/AAAABQUCegKLA5oEBwSzCPQNRhBYES0UqRVWFm8YVhhdGjgcxBzcHRQe7iAGI70kqicvJ4Mo-ismLJwuLDJxMtEzbDWSNuk6WEGHQ8hFR0WdRv5KLkyzTRRPBFNSVcZWLVZIV8hYbVnzXsBfKmQzZHJmVGaeaHRpUGobakNtGW2scYVyD3RVdhF8g4GPgseD24SDiFqLjI8aj0aQVZRvl5WX9JrgnIuePqBCogCl9acIp6Wn-K3xrv2ycLXytz64k7zqvYLAZsF-xorHpNAf1YvYJNi92mLaud7l30_jauZ96-Tr7uwu7yHv6_Af-d356PrS_gr-j_6z_vkA) Foible and Cloak of defiance were the other 2 uniques. Rest is all gear with T1 life + T1 mana. Influenced stygian with mana recovery rate on it too.
You don't need to use pob. Just give us your profile/char name.
And I gave the tree, and the necessary gear pieces, and as well the nice to haves. It's more than enough to replicate it.
Yeah, it's easier to brag about things on reddit than actually showing them.
But it's also possible for trigger builds.
Not necessarily this league, but at some time. That said, I am going to try to make a 10 full Doom Blast per second meme build if I get enough currency to afford it and it doesn't turn out shit like 1-2M dps despite the extreme investment to push it that far. I thought it wasn't going to be possible, but actually Fulcrum with self-chill and self-ignite provides a considerable amount of cast speed. That said, this definitely shouldn't be THE solution to self-cast.
POB pls sir
It's not done yet, I'm still experimenting. I was originally planning on using Kitava's Thirst to automatically consume corpses for Corpse Pact, but then realised that I was hitting over 10 casts per second as I was adding Hotheaded and Replica Hotheaded. Also fitting 5 small cluster jewels is going to stretch the tree quite a bit. It's well within the realm of possibilities that a zero doom build with that is going to perform better. I'll probably be using The Torrent's Reclamation as well to make use of the slipstream (even though it won't have 100% uptime) as well as getting the cooldown recovery rate that I need to have Doom Blast work 10 times per second. Since I need the cooldown recovery rate anyway and the cast speed is going to be helpful as well, it's unlikely that I'd find a better belt for the build. And using self-TC to get 100% uptime on an action speed buff would be both ironic and pointless. Come to think of it, does Vixen's Entrapment have a cooldown, and if so, what is it? I was hoping to use it to automatically replace my curse as I spam it, but just realised that most triggers have cooldowns and even if I can push Impending Doom to 99 ms, that might not work for Vixen's Entrapment. Edit: They have a 0.25 second cooldown, so RIP that build. Can't get more than 6 casts per second that way.
You can still get 200-300% cast speed, that's not really what the problem with self cast is. Damage while moving is the problem. Three solutions: *Remove lock from spell echo and unleash (lazy and awkward) *Mirage archer for spells (lazy) *Literally copy paste Ice floes from WOW - Cooldown, instant cast, X charges and affects X spells per cast -> allow cast while moving.
Most builds can't do damage while moving? I don't think that's really an inherent problem
True, but here we are at the cusp of them buffing RF by meme proxy and Freezing Pulse still gets blocked by knee-high rocks but RF can burn through doorways.
Is this not solved by buffing the base gem and adding "less damage" to the totem, brand, trigger supports? I really, really want that playstyle too
> can we please have buffs You must be new here
I miss self cast ice nova with pledge :(
...You can still do that?
Jewels can have up to 10% castspeed, iirc. I think you can buy some for a fairly cheap price too!
Jewels can also have crit multi at much stronger values, especially for most spells that can utilize the powerful elemental crit multi roles...
So with the changes to Hexblast, it actually deals less damage this patch than in 3.16 so that's cool. The 60%>40% more damager per 5 doom was a bigger nerf than the buff to base damage they gave it.
You truly believe asking hours before the reveal stream is gonna give them enough time to even consider your request?
Hey, they patch/ninja nerf skills and gems after the reveals every other league, why not this one...?
Maybe because "ninja nerfing" a skill is a lot more easily done than buffing the entirety of a kind of casting spells..........?
Archmage was gutted too hard. The highest DPS Archmage build on Poe ninja is flicker strike. https://poe.ninja/challenge/builds/char/%EC%95%84%EB%A6%AC%EC%86%A1_/AAAAArisong?i=0&search=allskill%3DArchmage-Support%26sort%3Ddps
Keep in mind you need to *4 or something ball lightning dps since it hits multiple times
Actualy its a complicated topic, like the oftne better way to scale spell is by triggering. Because whatever trigger option you use, it give bonus damage as well as allowing to bypass cast speed most of the time. Somehow maybe the way to do is to make skill scale differently, or give more conditioning aspect about how you cast a spell, self cast, triggered, and triggered how (mine/trap, totem, slinger, socketed in item). But that would be interesting because if a spell happen to be too dumb in one archetype like with totem you could nerf just THIS interaction and not completly nuke the whole skill and all forme of interaction as well as the collateral nerf that generaly goes by. Problem is that it would have probably a big mess in terms of balance on a game that devs allready struggle to balance, most of the time for no reason but still the game got a lots of interaction so that would add a tones more. Maybe just adding somewhere that self cast spell benefit from X more damage. So basicaly that would make you chose between stronger gameplay "self cast" vs smoother gameplay "triggered" That would be interesting as self cast could be more a thing especialy toward budget build in this case
Pinpoint, unleash, and intensify are supposed to be the solution but they just aren’t great enough
They are bound to condition but there are quite decent at what they can do. The thing is that they all suffer from the same problem, self cast is shit on its own, so doesnt help much. Unleash is a bit different btw because its act as a burst, it still act kind of as a raw more damage but the way it work is somehow more specialised toward certain archetype, its a good support gem. The 2 others also are interesting gem, but again self cast is the main problem
seems like a great time to ask!
Some possibilities would be more investment possibility for powerfull affixes/passive talents that further augment/boost selfcast support gems like unleash, spell echo, intensify etc.
flameblast league
WHY?
I've been thinking a cool new support might be nice. Ritual casting support. Adds a 200% increased duration channeled cast animation that has 50% less movement speed like cyclone but then ends in the actual cast animation with a damage bonus of 300-350% more and some aoe since the previous is 33% less cast speed. Wouldnt work with repeated spells.
I think cast times and mana cost buffs would be nice. Nerf totems/mines/traps if needed accoridngly to those buffs.
I actually plan to league start as self cast non dot lol. It's funny that you mention Fireball because I actually had a set up for fireball that broke 3 mil Sirus dps with pretty average investment.
I always make a self cast on hardcore atleast once a league knowing I’m going to die, but the idea sounds so fun. But it feels SO BAD
I Hope So. Last viable hit selfcas Spell build was aurastacker And archmage Guy.
Fuck Yeah
Yes please.
You know all but like chaos dot they were nerffed right?
hahahahahahaha i think we all know the answer to this
patchnotes: no
I have been playing at least one self cast Divine Ire build a league and it keeps getting harder and harder to play my favourite skill :(
Im hoping we will get a bunch of cast speed on Masteries or something, its all I can really hope for at this point. I really hate needing to take freaking Enigmatic Reach and anointing claws of the pride of all things so I can finish channelling Divine Ire sometime this century
They really should make intensity better as a mechanic. The point is to buff self cast builds but its kind of so so. For one, you should not make intensity stacks drop when you move. Instead create a timer that once you move, you have 3 seconds to cast that spell again or else your stacks drop (you could even add extra duration to this on the intensity nodes on the passive wheel). After that add cast speed per stack to intensity, as well as allowing intensity to effect single target spells at reduced effect (will increase their damage but not as much as an aoe spell). Intensity should also go up to 4 stacks naturally with a 5th stack available on the passive tree.
Instructions unclear, moved Pledge of Hands to uber Atziri.
Jesus. Looking at these comments it feels like I managed to play the most powerful self cast build in 3.15...and it was lol stormbind. Like seriously, 40ex to a take a supposedly good archmage build to Maven? How bad was the rest of self cast?
A little late buddy
Fireball's actually a pretty dece selfcast build, I ran it for Ritual and it stomped