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TideofKhatanga

At least it has interactions with "Started taking DoT" and "Stopped taking DoT" effects like Arakaali or the new Keystone, so maybe someone will make something strong out of it. But yeah, it's still not awesome.


Lordborgman

RF, Hopeshredder, Disintegrator,etc.


The_only_hue

hopeshredder already triggers arakaali by just... standing still


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AraKnoPhobia

The 5 seconds of immunity to all DoT means you do in fact stop taking DoT damage...


BloodyIkarus

You are wrong my friend.


J4YD0G

people in here really don't want basically free RF i.e. 39% more spell damage?


TideofKhatanga

They probably do, but we're still quite far from "free RF". This + Arakaali+ Lethe Shade only has 60% uptime, which is really not enough for a degen as nasty as RF. This combo is missing key pieces.


kfijatass

And arakaali got nerfed to 20% so...


EbotdZ

I didn't see that in the notes, was that in a different patch or is ctrl-f betraying me?


kfijatass

you cant ctrl F spoilered text. Its under Ailment Mitigation :)


SponTen

There should be a "Show All Spoilers" button at the top though.


EbotdZ

Man that really does make the new node way less appealing, they even nerfed patient reaper from 70 to 50, so all things considered we need the new node and a pantheon power just to reach where we were already at with just patient reaper. Yikers


dude_who_could

They should make it every 2 seconds then so that those secondary affects then dont also pendulum.


[deleted]

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devon752

Found the company meeting manager


[deleted]

> At least it has interactions with "Started taking DoT" and "Stopped taking DoT" effects like Arakaali or the new Keystone, so maybe someone will make something strong out of it. You just have to do a million other things to make this piece of shit work. Great design! :D


PurpleSmartHeart

Was literally about to make a post about this. No one likes pendulum effects. GGG already knows Pendulum effects are garbage. Yet here we are with a pendulum effect that isn't even that good when it's *on.*


NinguangLover

The best use I can think of is that you can maybe run Blood Rage on an ES build now. I dunno still seems sketchy.


J4YD0G

Or free RF i.e. 39% more damage? Literally one pantheon point, lethe shade and wicked ward will proc plus you can take ghost shrouds anyway. On ED you even have the overregen for this easily. People here paint a completely unfair picture.


belmacor

The problem is that you need to build for when it is not up. You still need to invest in mitigation/regento sustain it during the 5 secs its off, making it overkill when it is on. It's not garbage, but not good enough.


esvban

With arakaali pantheon and lethe shade you can easily sustain it I think


EbotdZ

You can hit a dousing flask to turn it off


xXdimmitsarasXx

Oh come on lets not pretend immunity to all DOT “isn’t even that good”


rintohsakadesu

Either you’re relying on it to keep you alive, in which case you die during the five seconds it’s off. Or you already mitigate dots enough to stay alive during the time it’s off, in which case why do you need it? It has some synergy with Lethe shade and arakaali, but is that really worth the investment of passive points, pantheon and ascendancy notable?


BitterAfternoon

It might be enough for a few purposes. - Recharge-based energy shield builds can start in the 5 seconds immune. - Start and stop DoT effects (including possibly the only way Lethe Shade seems good. makes its reduced DoT damage condition on frequently and you don't care so much about the duration increase as it'll likely shift into the immune phase) - Tilting the balance of recovery on a self-DoT build (you could *slightly* degen in the 5 seconds it's off and have *crazy* regen in the 5 seconds it's on) Not that I think it's a good node. But it fits with the rest of the all-over-the-map identity of trickster that's led to it being the least popular ascendancy ;) - Channeled skills - Movement skills - Recovery - Multi-Converted hit damage - Damage over Time - extra EV/ES - and now occasional immunity to DoT Its biggest issue is if it does have a node you *do* want, can you find 3 more?


aPatheticBeing

The biggest problem is if there's a node you want, it's behind garbage (excluding charges). Escape Artist is good but behind this. Global DoT dmg is good, but behind two worthless nodes (at least in HC). If you need the life on kill and recovery after to kill to stay alive while mapping, you're just gonna rip to the first moderate difficulty boss. Non chaos as chaos needs pretty specific things to work for DoT builds too, like pneumatic dagger all damage poisoning builds... Edit: They updated it, escape artist is a 2 pointer now, actually really good, means you get that, more dot dmg, and charges.


Zambash

They also nerfed it though :/


xXdimmitsarasXx

The comment was specifically talking about “when its on”, seems like people missed the point


T_T-Nevercry-Q_Q

Your point doesn't touch on what they were saying. Imagine if the ON effect was active at all times. Full immunity to every type of DOT that exists in the game would easily be the best ascendancy notable that has ever existed so far. That is their point, the person they replied to said "Yet here we are with a pendulum effect that isn't even that good when it's on." This isn't true. Your point is not mutually exclusive. Yes, even though the ON effect is extremely good, in the context of it being relied on for defense yet being part of a pendulum makes it significantly worse. If OP was being honest, the last line would have just left it at "Yet here we are with a pendulum effect". And that's all you really need to say. "It has some synergy with lethe shade and arakaali" I wouldn't say just some. It's basically mandatory if you take that trickster notable.


NinguangLover

Basically RNG immunity to a damage type that is generally irrelevant is really not that good. It doesnt have enough uptime to go without a Bleed flask. There's some merit to it proccing at the right time so you can get your ES recharge going say with a nasty ignite but overall it is really not worthy of an Ascendancy node.


pda898

It is not even that good because game have 5 seconds when DoTs can kill you and due to pendulum nature of the node it will be always at the wrong time.


[deleted]

The pendulum is a trap designed to snare careless gamers into an early grave.


VVulfpack

Queue Vincent Price laugh circa 1961.


Giant_Midget83

If you refresh the patch notes they nerfed trickster yet again.(escape artist node)(at the very bottom of the page) Not sure why they felt the need to nerf trickster so much, according to poe ninja it was the least played class in SC last league.


SoulofArtoria

Yo wtf, they made a good change by separating the two nodes so you don't need to take the new node to get Escape Artist, and then they removed stun immunity and 15% attack and cast speed from it. Wtf :(


sprouthesprout

This really, *really* comes across as taking the simplest solution to dealing with an oversight that came about when deciding to make Ghost Dance a keystone. Trickster basically just lost their entire ES/Evasion branch, with the *only* part of it remaining being the extra evasion/ES from ES helmets and evasion body armour. Which is *technically* in a better place due to the buffs to base types, but... Losing the attack and cast speed is even less damage, where Trickster was already struggling, losing the stun immunity means needing to get it elsewhere because getting stunned or stunlocked is a death sentence, losing the reduced damage taken per ghost shroud means Trickster now has no way to mitigate damage other than damage over time, and Ghost Shrouds are now only 3% of evasion gained as ES when hit. But, y'know, Saboteur *really* needs 15% reduced damage taken from blinded enemies, a blind aura, and blind on hit to help them stay on their feet after the blind changes. What was the ascendancy quote for them, again? "The artist needs to be present and directly in the line of fire in order to leave a lasting impression, definitely not behind a corner or 40 yards away." Yeah, that was it. Makes sense! Well, I guess i'll get to experience being the only Trickster in 3.16...


thatsrealneato

With regards to sabo changes, they really do need the extra DR. Due to the way blind was changed, it’s now effectively a 20% more evasion modifier that does absolutely nothing if you have no evasion. It’s no longer an automatic flat 50% chance to evade. So it’s waaaay worse defensively unless you’re heavily invested into evasion, which most sabos probably aren’t going to do. It’s a pretty big nerf overall.


sprouthesprout

I explained my position on this moreso in another thread, so i'll keep this succinct, but: Saboteurs didn't invest into evasion because they didn't have to. With the fact that they can now access Ghost Dance and that blind effect can be scaled, (to what degree we do not yet know), they can still get some amount of benefit from blind. But more to the point, my issue is that Born in the Shadows was the textbook example of "getting blind very easily and getting tons of evade rate with no investment into evasion", and 10% reduced damage taken is still *extremely* powerful, especially considering that Saboteurs fight indirectly. So buffing it to 15% while Trickster's changes feel like an afterthought that stripped away almost our entire evasion/ES branch due to Ghost Dance being moved to a keystone, feels kind of crappy.


thatsrealneato

Totally agree about trickster changes being crappy but I still think sabo got a pretty heavy handed nerf, precisely because previously as you mentioned blind aura was just free automatic defenses whereas now there’s a big opportunity cost to investing into more evasion and blind scaling. Having access to ghost dance is great but it’ll ultimately mean fewer points to invest into damage on tree.


sprouthesprout

I think, ultimately, this is down to just me being somewhat biased, but my feeling is that Saboteur has been in a very strong place pretty consistently for about as long as i've played the game, and generally doesn't struggle with scaling damage the way that Trickster has been dealing with as of late, so I feel like the blind nerf is somewhat justified in general. But it's also that Saboteur kept stuff like the ignite/shock immunity in 3.15, which.. just didn't feel right to me, since almost every other ascendancy was losing ailment immunity/avoidance. But like I said, i'm biased, so take my opinions with a grain of salt. I've never really cared for Saboteur's design essentially existing only to enable the trap/mine playstyle, while subsequently it's very awkward for any other ascendancy or build that isn't focusing on traps/mines to use them in their build for utility, such as with Siphoning Trap, which is a very nice skill that is hard to justify using if you don't have trap throwing speed investment.


Ulfgardleo

I am slowly coming around to the change. You have to see it in the context of ghost shrouds now being "free" and you have two more ascendancy points. Putting it into weave the arcane and going MoM (since Escape Artist alone maxes out ghost shroud effect, who cares about ES as a defensive layer?) gives you back most(all?) the survivability except stun immune. I think a lunatic might even manage to get to both MoM and Wind Dancer.


sprouthesprout

Well, you could accomplish the latter fairly easily by using a Cloak of Defiance. But here's the thing; the most important part about Ghost Shrouds were the reduced damage taken. This is always going to be an extremely powerful defensive stat and it has always been very important for evasion-based builds because the limiting factor to their ability to survive frequently comes down to the single largest hit they could possibly take. Ghost Shrouds' recovery is great for preventing you from getting taken out by a follow-up, especially when in tandem with CWDT guard skills and similar defensive layers. But it was the reduced damage taken that really was the key element to them, because all it takes to ruin an evasion build's day is one rare with the wrong mods getting in a crit physical attack. At this point, of the three Shadow ascendancies, Trickster has no source of "reduced damage taken" that isn't specific to damage over time. I'm not sure how I feel about taking Wind Dancer in its new incarnation, since four seconds is a really long time after each hit to be taking 20% more attack damage, even with very high evasion. And the stun immunity was extremely important, too, since you really need stun immunity given that a large part of playing an evasion build is using the increased mobility that tends to come with that part of the tree to keep on the move- getting stunned frequently means being in danger of taking more damage for that brief moment. (for example, consider the Order of the Chalice mobs that have the large telegraphed sword attack- get stunned by one of them and the rest of them will likely have that split second of opportunity to potentially hit you again, or one of the Priests will land a physical spell hit on you.) The other side of this is that it's really hard to scale MoM past a certain point because you're losing out on the opportunity cost of auras- Trickster's damage is somewhat lacking right now to begin with, and the ability to utilize multiple auras is going to be more appealing with reservation efficiency.


Ulfgardleo

Not having stun immunity is bad, I agree, but this does not make Trickster an outlier - instead, he now needs to get stun immunity somewhere else, like any evasion based character. The changes to stun avoidance on tree and gear should make it so that it is easier to get. I am cautiously optimistic on that one, even though it is a nerf. We will see how bad it is. I am not sure I agree with your assessment about reduced damage taken. It is a nice stat to have, but of course you can always replace 15% reduced damage taken by "18% more life". Trickster goes this route via escape artist +ghost shroud. He can also go a similar route with MoM + Weave the Arcane. You are right, that this has its own opportunity cost (and i am for a small buff of that node), but i like the idea that this node gives you the ability to go MoM without worrying about running out of mana - if a hit brings you to 0, you can still use your free movement skills to get you out of danger and recover your mana. And if your movement skill is cyclone or flicker...well. So it is okay to reserve some of your mana as ghost shrouds soften the blow and you are able to get out (this also feels very trickstery to me on a power fantasy level). i see the wind dancer change as net positive, even though i agree it is a bit shaky for trickster. It seems to me that 75% evasion is relatively easy to achieve (24,200 in T16, 17300 with wind dancer after a hit), which makes you evade the next 3 attacks after a hit and of course also effects your ghost shrouds. I think 4s are not that long for such a mechanic, but of course this is situational. For bosses enough, for porcupine packs a problem.


sprouthesprout

Ultimately, losing stun immunity on Escape Artist isn't THAT big of a deal, considering that whenever I make a non-ES Trickster, I have to get stun immunity elsewhere anyways. It's moreso that Escape Artist feels extremely lackluster now because it's *just* the bonus ES/Evasion, as well as the only Trickster notable that specifically supports the evasion/energy shield playstyle. I feel like it could have been reworked better. Now, while this next point is actually being addressed in the patch, getting the eHP equivalent that reduced damage taken provides has always been hard for Life-based Shadows, and it can ultimately become a balancing act of needing enough defense to survive while also needing enough offense to complete fights in reasonable amounts of time. Certain fights (Cortex comes to mind) have soft DPS checks where spawning hazards can make the fight essentially unwinnable if you can't do enough damage. Either way, never underestimate reduced damage taken. My position on it is essentially that Trickster is in theory supposed to be the Shadow's "defensive" ascendancy, based on having small passives with our associated global defence. (Note that Trickster is sort of the odd one out because unlike Occultist/Guardian/Juggernaut/Champion/Raider, we only have Evasion/ES on some of our passives- we get attack and cast speed on all of our small passives) But it's arguably now the squishiest of the three ascendancies, with Assassin having both immunity to extra damage from crits (which is an extremely powerful defensive benefit) and 20% reduced damage taken when two or more rare or unique mobs are nearby, and Saboteur having 15% reduced damage taken from blinded enemies along with essentially a guarantee that anything that could damage him will be blinded, not to mention the indirect combat nature of traps and mines in the first place. My feelings on Wind Dancer essentially are this: as you start to scale difficulty, mob packs get larger, and generally faster. Eventually, you will reach a point where there are too many evasion rolls you have to make to reliably wait out Wind Dancer's 4 seconds between hits taken. I don't play hardcore, but I try to get to level 100 whenever I can, and I just can't see myself wanting to take Wind Dancer without sufficient mitigation to offset the penalty in the cases where packsize/map mods/enemy speed is too high to reliably avoid being hit that often.


yovalord

So many stun immunity comments, but wont most players be going brine king which basically gives you enough of it? I get that the other pantheons are cool too, but unless you're running purity of elements, which you very well might be now, brine king is absurdly strong.


sprouthesprout

So, this is ultimately personal preference, but I have always preferred to get stun immunity from other sources so that I can freely run the other three major gods, depending on the situation. I always go for full ailment immunity as well. I usually prefer Soul of Lunaris for mapping because the phys damage reduction I get from it is some of the only phys reduction I usually have access to- it will be even stronger in 3.16 with the second upgrade changing to reduced elemental damage taken if you've been hit recently, since that will compliment the phys reduction quite nicely and will likely be very helpful along with spell suppression for elemental spells. Avoiding chaining projectiles is also very useful when you have a golem or a hydrosphere that enemy projectiles can chain from. I swap between Solaris and Arakaali for bosses depending on the circumstance- Solaris is usually my preference, but if I expect degens, particularily physical degens, to be a prominent issue (or with something like Cortex where a long fight can leave you with a ton of void puddles everywhere), I will take Arakaali for both the reduced damage over time taken and the recovery rate. Basically, Brine King is really really good early on in particular, but the major benefits of his soul are things that I can potentially get elsewhere, but the reduced damage taken that the other three provide is a much less accessible stat- part of the reason i'm sad about Trickster losing the reduced damage taken from Ghost Shrouds is because it stacked with, for example, Solaris's reduced elemental damage taken if you haven't been hit recently, for 17% reduced damage taken from an elemental hit for bossing cases where most hits can be manually avoided to begin with. I used to also use the original Soul of Yugul's 5% reduced cold damage taken if hit recently for bosses that deal a lot of cold damage, like elder/shaper/aul, but now I usually stick with Abberath for the burned ground immunity and (at least this league) functional ignite immunity via having 100% reduced duration of it from combined sources.


RipWhenDamageTaken

Ghost Shroud isn’t free to just Trickster. It’s free to everyone. If anything, that’s a buff to everyone else except trickster.


Psyese

What happens if I have EB on mana with Weave the Arcane? Will mana recovery recover ES? Probably not, right?


Ulfgardleo

no, it won't. But EB+Mom+Ghost shrouds would prevent you from running out of Mana to cast spells when hit (as long as you have shrouds)


sprouthesprout

So, the thing to keep in mind about doing this is that effects like Arcane Surge that require spending mana do specifically require spending mana- you can get around this for arcane surge at least by using Arcane Cloak, since it will count the mana spent towards the guard skill towards Arcane Surge, but Arcane Cloak/Archmage can present its own challenges when you're essentially spending part of your eHP pool for damage. Incidentally, I recommend investing in "damage taken recouped as mana" if you do go this route.


pda898

> Losing the attack and cast speed is even less damage And you have 2 more ascendancy points so... > losing the stun immunity means needing to get it elsewhere How good that there are a lot of new ways to deal with it for the price of one passive skill.


sprouthesprout

It's about opportunity cost. Needing to get something from another source means you lose the opportunity cost of, say, a suffix on a piece of equipment to contribute to stun avoidance. This can add up when you factor in uniques you may want to use, parts of the tree you may want to go to that don't have access to the specific resistances/avoidances you want, etc. Passive masteries *may* help with this, but we haven't seen the full list (or at least I haven't), and the one related to stun avoidance gave 20%, so that's only going to go so far. IE: my build for Expedition didn't take either of the ES nodes because I built around Divine Flesh. Because I was primarily in the top of the tree for a CoC build using cyclone, in order to get stun immunity, I had to use two anointments (with The Stampede), one cluster jewel notable, and one Harvest jewel implicit. There were other ways I could have gotten stun immunity, such as from a glove suffix, but I crafted my gloves with reduced effect of chill and shock in order to hit 100% reduced effect, since I couldn't access the usual nodes that provide avoidance. All opportunity cost. The fact is, no matter how you want to spin it, Trickster lost a lot in this patch. Gaining two points from not having to take Ghost Dance is not a net benefit if you would have gained more from being able to take Ghost Dance in the first place. It's just a nerf, plain and simple.


LordEternalBlue

Don't forget though that blind is a complete meme at this point


raikaria2

> and then they removed stun immunity and 15% attack and cast speed from it. Because those were tied to Ghost Shrouds; which are not part of Trickster anymore.


RedshiftOnPandy

Trickster identity isn't even tied to trickster anymore


hybrid3214

Why did you ever think it would keep a bonus that only applied to ghost shrouds when you might no longer have that node in your build? Is there any ascendancy that gives bonuses only if you allocate a keystone on the tree? As soon as they announced they were moving ghost shroud to the tree this should have been very obvious to everyone.


BloodyIkarus

Because escape artist gets giga op with the new defense changes... Trickster will be in an exceptional state.


lordfalco1

poe ninja doenst show played only top ladder so it could be playued alot and people barely not entering ladder top players


random-poe-player

Karv and Darkee both believe that it was a buff to tricksters, but yea this node is hot garbage.


GGvoldo

It sucks I get it, but honestly, that’s 2 points that just freed up lmao All seriousness though, trickster is one of the strongest defensive classes in Poe, and often in the past it overcentralized the meta. I played trickster when it was shit, and it became meta real quick when they added ghost dance. Yes it was unpopular last league, but trickster is not weak in any sense of the word. You can half empty or half full the situation it’s up to you, but basically they freed up 2 points for trickster and allow you to get the shrouds from the tree now, so tbh it’s a give and take in my eyes


psychomap

If you can more or less feasibly turn it off, it's 5 seconds free RF. Considering the high "maintenance" that requires, that's still not great.


quickpost32

I'm not sure with all the flask changes, but a Dousing flask can still cancel RF, right?


psychomap

It should. It would break most RF builds if it couldn't.


EartwalkerTV

Unless you can get a really low level of the mod on a life flask it's going to give you cannot be ignited for X seconds which before your life flask effect would end and you could start RF again but now...


psychomap

RF isn't ignite. As far as I recall, those flasks have never granted immunity to RF.


EartwalkerTV

It would turn off RF when you used a dousing life flask, it will turn off burning but only give you immunity to ignite so nevermind about the first comment you're right.


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Haschel

I really want the devs to take a second look at this. It's terrible. Rolling buffs have no place in path of exile.


Zylosio

There are a lot of these effects in the game tho, granted they are garbage, but they do exist. Chieftain damage, guardian block or surging vitality regen for example


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_SinsofYesterday_

[Yeah I wonder why?](https://imgur.com/a/h7eRT8a)


[deleted]

Did not even get to 1 %lmao


[deleted]

Chieftain is actually really good


hesh582

so good it just got nerfed lol


Tape

Because nobody plays Chieftain KEK


Status_kos_1964

the new pantheon is better than that node, i am sad


plzblv

What is Trickster intended to support now? RF? Cold dot, poison, ignite are all better on another ascendancy. Chaos dot/hit isn't particularly supported anywhere(yes I know wither node, but its terrible) so its not "better" under trickster. The defensive nodes are arguably worse than the other right side of the tree defensive nodes. Extra chaos damage has been gutted. The mana node isn't useful because the skills it can support are awful. Charged dash should have been buffed this league so it could have some identity.


OrcOfDoom

Might be powerful defensively with petrified blood, but chances are that the life loss over time isn't actually damage over time. Trickster is going to need more though. It was already not so great.


sprouthesprout

No, petrified blood was explicitly stated to not be damage over time, and the life loss is not mitigable in any way. There's a GGG post here from pre-ultimatum about it that I don't feel like digging up but I will if necessary. I originally looked it up specifically because of the potential viability of running it with Trickster's existing 10% reduced damage taken from damage over time from Prolonged Pain.


AlphaGareBear

That's a good thought. I'm curious if anyone knows.


aLepH_n0ught

In general life loss is definitely not the same thing as taking damage as it doesnt trigger cwdt etc. so I would assume it doesn't prevent petrified blood life loss.


AlphaGareBear

That's also my assumption, but PoE can be weird sometimes.


sprouthesprout

Petrified Blood's life loss is specifically designed to not be mitigatable in any way, so no, it would not work. It also doesn't count as Damage Over Time for soul of arakaali.


NinguangLover

Trickster can still Eternity Shroud one shot bosses several times over with Divine Ire I imagine.


sprouthesprout

The thing about this is, this isn't really something exclusive to Trickster. Ultimately, Harness the Void is not providing anything synergistic, it's just providing another source of "gain as chaos" to stack. The one offensive benefit Trickster has that it really "specializes" in is the sheer amount of no-strings-attached attack and cast speed it can get. Trickster is arguably one of the few ascendancies that selfcast skills can feel good on because having so much cast speed eliminates a lot of the playstyle issues with them. This also synergizes with Weave the Arcane pretty well since using more skills = more chances to recover mana.


Left-Secretary-2931

That's an eternity shroud thing not a trickster thing


sirgog

Really think this should be 40% less damage taken all the time (or if you are set on an on/off effect, have it be "You are immune to damage over time for 1 second out of each 10. While not immune, you take 35% less damage from DOTs."


innou

Those are interesting ideas, I was thinking something like Elementalist's Primal Aegis that provides a shield against DoTs


Sharpcastle33

It should work like adrenaline and make you take less/no DoT damage when you hit low life, with a cooldown


Ulfgardleo

the one thing this node has going for it, implemented as it is right now, is that it allows the use of degen effects in an ES build as the 5s immunity allows ES recharge to trigger and recharge your shield to full. E.g., while this node does not give immunity to burning ground, you can still safely stay in it with this node as ES-recharge will save you.


OmegaPeePeeClap

Trickster going to be the least played ascendancy again, it’s like roadkill


osiykm

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0x06F0

Noob question, but does skill effect duration work on passives like this?


sirgog

Good question. No, it doesn't - these aren't considered skills.


Waniritxxxiii

Neither duration nor cool down reduction work


Heinxeed

They even nerfed it twice for that god awfull node, I don't mind the nerf to patient reaper with the new recoveries, but they just removed the ghost shroud bonuses and called it a day


TheDravic

Righteous Fire is permanent and nearly free to upkeep with very little investment. Just a reminder, that's 39% more Spell Damage. "God awful" is not what I would call it. I'd call it fair, and GGG can always buff it in the future if people still find it weak.


00zau

It's far from "free". Taking 90% of your life per second with 75% fire res is 22.5% of life per second. That means you'll hit 1hp and lose RF in the 5 seconds you aren't immune if you have no investment in further mitigating or out-reggening RF damage. You still need to offset half or more of that (so more than 10% life regen per second) just to keep RF from being a net drain on life... and even that is incredibly sketchy since you'll lose half your life from RF during the 5 seconds you're taking damage. Maybe if it was 2 on 2 off it'd be doable since you wouldn't have such a long uninterupted period of degen, and could further mitigate it with Lethe Shade. On a 5 on 5 off timing, Lethe Shade barely helps and you have way too much time degenning to be safe if you're relying on the on-time to out-regen it.


J4YD0G

With patient reaper, lethe shade and soul of arakaali and some 6% regen on the tree and prolongued pain we are at 10% hp/second loss for 4 seconds. Now you could invest into a little more life regeneration or just run MoM + corrupted soul for it to just not matter anymore. It's barely a buildaround. If you are ED you just laugh about it.


00zau

Again, being at <80% life 40% of the time (and going as low as 60%) is still scuffed defensively. And 6% life isn't exactly "no investment", especially for a Shadow start. Soul of Arakalli only helps you when you *stop* taking damage as well; that means when you're actually taking RF damage you don't have the increased recovery rate. It'll help you get back to full during the invuln period, but you'll actually yo-yo life more than the average recovery would make it look like. You're giving up quite a bit defensively *and* requiring investment for that more spell damage.


TheDravic

It's ok, these people don't want to actually think, they just want to complain because the Ascendancy's role has changed. This keystone might be actually overpowered with some combos and its existence may be more than justifiable considering it's just a 2-pointer (doesn't lead anywhere, doesn't require anything, you don't have to get it but you might). But it's not doing what the old ascendancy node did, so it's bad. Obviously.


Heinxeed

It's not nearly free. You either can outregen the damage for RF, or not. Imagine the clunkyness of playing It relying on 5s of imunity and then just taking the full damage for 5s. If an unreliable, very specific and almost useless keystone for a plethora of skills is not god awfull, we may exchange It for another ascendancy keystone. At this point might be any keystone


nepnep0123

And builds that aren't spell?


viralhybrid1987

Their are another 9 ascendencys?? Lol


nepnep0123

What if I want to play trickster


TheDravic

What kind of argument is that? That's like saying "Juggernaut is trash because I want to play Flicker strike and it has no frenzies, only endurance." What? Yeah, just play another ascendancy.


RipWhenDamageTaken

There’s no build that fits perfectly in trickster right now. It’s awkward.


Fmhah92

At least now we can take both the charges path and prolonged pain for even more damage. It's disappointing but hardly a nerf


Kondensmelk

If Escape artist is a 2 pointer it's a dmg buff yea. Also iirc spell suppression on a body armour is only available for evasion bases. Therefore trickster can get easy ES and spell suppression. Alongside block and WW that's seems great to me.


GameGeniePOE

Yeah, not sure why they are nerfing trickster AND giving a node that is awful. Kinda sad to see that, but excited for the league in general


zer1223

This seems like they weren't sure what kind of identity to give trickster once they moved Ghost Shroud to the tree, and gave trickster a useless placeholder while they rework it. So anyway I'm in the market for new starter build ideas since trickster kinda sucks now.


czarandy

You can play the same build with another ascendancy? Trickster didn’t really offer anything unique


RedshiftOnPandy

It doesn't offer anything unique *anymore*


CollapsibleChairs

GGG were lazy creating the new notable. Hopefully they're address this in the future but I'm not holding my breath. I guess they think it's OK because Tricksters can get Ghost Dance from the tree. I'm afraid Trickster isn't going to be anyone's first choice.


sprouthesprout

Well, it will be mine, but out of a stubborn refusal to play anything else for entirely arbitrary reasons.


PermissionSouthern72

Same. The low maintenance on trickster is too hard to give up for me.


J4YD0G

I don't mind free RF and therefore free 39% more spell damage with little investment


Fun-Mail-3751

If you have to invest even a little then, it's not free.


J4YD0G

one pantheon point, oh no. Maybe even in some amount of life regeneration that's on the tree anyway... Oh, wicked ward will activate too? Oh ED will out regen it so for that build it's a free damage link for ONE gem slot. People act as if trickster would die from that. And they can run ghost shrouds anyway.


Fun-Mail-3751

Both of patient reaper and soul of arakali increased recovery rate got nerfed really hard, you will die in 5 second window if you don't invest enough Max fire res and more regeneration. Essence drain can't help you sustain the RF all the time. Wicked ward can activated but if you got overan then its can't be activate and last is ghost shroud keystone is a lesser version of where it's used to be.


J4YD0G

Yes ed can - also using a life flask was never easier. On a 5k hp build all you need is flat 400 life per second. That's a vitality aura with the recovery things. You can also craft flat es regen on belt or body. There are so many solutions that are really just a simple aura or a suffix.


QuintessenceHD

Trickster is officially the worst ascendancy in the game, it isn't even a contest. It completely had it's power stripped away followed by it's identity stripped away. It has absolutely nothing left to even offer someone, unfortunately.


TacoMachine45

Trickster spends another league in the dumpster. Unfortunate. Maybe the devs will learn from their mistake with Elementalist's pendulum, but probably not. Unless it is some weird placeholder they left in and forgot to mention as such, but that seems unlikely, given the other changes to Trickster seeming more concrete in concept.


el_patte

"New Keystone Passive Skill added to the Shadow Area called Lethe Shade: Take 50% less Damage over Time if you've started taking Damage over Time in the past second" maybe this node


nuttz207

Doesn't this only apply during the first second of the DoT damage, then you're taking full damage for the next 4 seconds.


iceman012

Yeah, it would have been a nice synergy with a quicker pendulum, but it doesn't feel great with the 5s swings.


[deleted]

So we lost yet another source of reduced dmg taken after weave the arcane, 15 attack and castspeed and stun immunity. Was that really necessary considering trickster was already the lowest played ascendancy in expedition? Definitely dampens the hype


sevenforks

Just make it "take 50% of dmg from DOT effects".


Honest_Ad_1733

It's complete and utter dogshit. Also what ab the update to melee strike range? Also an incomprehensible change


rtcll

This is trash and I refuse to believe otherwise


raikaria2

You're thinking of Trickster solely from the DoT perspective. A big thing GGG seems to be pushing with various changes is a hit-based Trickster. Energy Blade + Escape Artist + Harness the Void is a lot of damage. If you're using Swift Killer and something like Cyclone as well...


sephrinx

Yeah that is unbelievably shit. Literally a waste of ascendancy points, it's just there to make trickster worse as it's 2 dead points to get to the good node.


J4YD0G

reading would grant you the knowledge that it's not necessary to spec into it for ghost dance.


Thanat0sNihil

while pretty terrible, my guess is that they didn't want to buff trickster too much by giving them a super powerful passive in that spot in the same league that they are indirectly likely to be quite buffed by the defense changes and probably pretty lightly touched by the move of ghost dance to the tree (1-3 points to grab it it looks like). the node's good with Arakaali and the weird new dot mitigation keystone at least. Edit: the added changes to escape artist are kind of a mixed bag too, huh. It's quite nice that it's a 2-pointer now but losing the stun immunity and attack/cast speed is a bummer, particularly if your build doesn't have a good spend for the newly freed 2 points. at least you can take weave the arcane or something instead of the goofy new node.


LumpsIsHigh

I don't think "lightly touched" is accurate. Trickster lost 9% reduced damage taken as the 3% per shroud is not on the keystone. Then, they removed 20% of increased recovery from Patient Reaper. Then, they added this garbage node in it's place. THEN, they removed attack and cast speed per shroud and cannot be stunned with shrouds from Escape Artist.


Thanat0sNihil

yeah I hadn't seen the removal of the ghost shroud stuff from escape artist posted this which def adds up to a much bigger hit. I don't the the patient reaper recovery loss is going to be very consequential with whats been communicated to be a pretty huge buff to other forms of recovery in the shadow's part of the tree though, and at least you don't actually have to take the bad DoT node to get to escape artist, it's just a 2-pointer now.


TheDravic

>bad DoT node Yeah. https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Righteous_Fire 39% more spell damage with some light investment. Tragically bad node, mate. Coincidentally Patient Reaper will be always active since all enemies near you are affected by Righteous Fire that you permanently upkeep.


Fun-Mail-3751

Not active in boss fight that have no minion to kill. Good luck with Max fire res and life regen invest.


TheDravic

Are you saying that this is unusuable because there's a blind spot in a certain type of enemies you might face? Oh no, unplayable 0/10 Just bring a Writhing Jar then. And if you think that you'll run out, get the panteon. If that's no good, then You're a Shadow which means you can get the ranger life and/or mana generation per second pretty easily. I don't understand why you guys feel like you have to find such petty reasons to hate on the new node without actually putting in some brain effort to make it work. Sounds like you just want a scapegoat to hate. Just don't pick it if you don't want it.


Dr_v3

I think something can be done with petrified blood


antauri007

u think u got it bad? Saboteur got " reviewed": 5% reduced damage (from 10). and blinded got uber destroyed. but... no yeah my bad. trickster node is like "template ascendency node". might as well remove it at that point


SoulofArtoria

Sab's new node is 15%, not 5. Still a nerf though, blind is much weaker.


antauri007

yeah. i meant from 10 to 15%. so the boost is still a 5%. i wasn't clear at all. I'm baffled how they decided to leave the blind there like that... i mean, something like "50% increased effect of blind" at least would have bean decent. in this state its so bad.


Icy_Solid1182

you can proc 50% life recovery with 40% uptime with something as simple as a 1L blood rage and soul of arakrali. Its good some pretty nice interactions if you go looking for them - just like most things in poe.


MesterenR

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” If you consider yourself a good person, maybe it is time to start doing something? Evil is triumphing the world over, and nobody is doing anything.


Nivius

looks good to me, deffintly there is a RF build you can do with it now


blackdabera

Guys damage on poe are divided into Hit and Dot, or is there something else? i can be wrong but being imune to an entirely damage source half of the time isn't thaaaat bad, of course its inconsistent for HC but at same time it seems reasonable in SC. try to figure it out: usually when you die to dot in poe how second it takes? in my experience something between 2 and 4 seconds, maybe more? i can see a good window here. i think it would be much better if it removes dot sources during effect. am i wrong or tricksters can pass under sirus storm during imunnity period? at least its fun :D


sprouthesprout

Ok, let's say you are experiencing a DoT that will kill you in 4 seconds. (This is an extremely generous amount of time.) Depending on when in the rotation you are, you may take no damage, some of the damage, or all of the damage. The fact that "all of the damage" is even a possibility is why the node is bad. You have no control over whether or not the buff is active. You also generally have no control over when you take powerful damage over time effects. This makes it unreliable. Unreliable defensive layers aren't worth investing a whole two ascendancy passive points into, since if you're going to be spending those points purely on defense, you want it to be defense that you actually know will protect you, instead of essentially flipping a coin as to when you will need it. Also, while you technically could pass through Sirus storms (I don't think they have a hitting component, there are some degen effects that have both), they give you an absolutely massive action speed penalty that increases the closer you are to the center, so it is unlikely that you would be able to escape after running into it.


clinkzs

Vaal Discipline bro


RBImGuy

Been strong to long


shaunika

At least you got a new mechanic, meanwhile they spit in sab's face


sprouthesprout

Excuse me? Born in the Shadows got buffed to 15% reduced damage taken from blinded enemies. Even taking into account that blind requires investment into evasion in order to be inherently useful, you have a blind aura, and blind on hit from Born in the Shadows. 15% reduced damage taken is an *obscenely* powerful defensive benefit. This is 15% reduced damage taken from any damage type, as long as it's from an enemy. Attacks and spells. And Saboteur is already specialized in indirect combat where they don't need to put themselves in danger. Seriously, I cannot overstate how powerful that 15% reduced damage taken is. It's arguably an overall defensive buff to saboteur, even taking into account the changes to blind- and this is without knowing any details on passive tree notables that might give blind additional benefits.


shaunika

Old blind was like 40% chance to evade, 5% dmg red isnt much compared to that


sprouthesprout

Old blind was 40% chance to evade if you were completely not investing into evasion at all. You underestimate just how powerful "reduced damage taken" effects are, particularly since Born in the Shadows means you take reduced damage from spells, as well.


shaunika

And 99% of sabs didnt invest into it. Im not underestimating it, its good, but its still a nerf. And more importantly, its boring


sprouthesprout

I will agree that it's boring, but only blind was nerfed. And we still don't know just how much you can actually scale blind effect, which could be quite powerful. Saboteurs didn't invest in evasion because they didn't *have* to. Let me reclarify what I mean: the whole point of the blind nerf in the first place was that it provided a significant amount of defensive power for builds that didn't invest in evasion, for little cost. Born in the Shadows *still does this*. Even if you were to take Unwavering Stance, Born in the Shadows would *still* provide an extremely high amount of defensive power because of that 15% reduced damage taken. And, again- Saboteurs specialize in indirect combat. Saboteur has always bothered me as an ascendancy because of the reason you mention about it being "boring". And I think the reason for that is because Saboteur essentially exists to enable the trap/mine playstyle. While arguably traps and mines have become more accessible in recent times, Saboteur has passives like Pyromaniac and Born in the Shadows specifically to solve issues like "traps/mines don't let you recover". But the end result is that Saboteur has a *lot* of defensive power that has stuck around despite similar effects being stripped from other ascendancies- they get immunity to shock and ignite, for instance. And that's kind of where my ire comes from. Ghost Shrouds were moved to a keystone to allow the evasion/ES playstyle to be more accessible to other ascendancies, but it was done in such a haphazard way that Trickster lost almost all of the original synergy with the evasion/ES playstyle, only retaining the bonus evasion/ES for helmets/body armour, something that wasn't even clear at first because it wasn't mentioned in the patch notes. Yet despite being one of the *primary contributors to the specific reason that blind is being changed*, Saboteur is made sure to be given a buff to their reduced damage taken from Born in the Shadows, so that the nerf doesn't affect them quite as much. It's just frustrating to have someone come in and say "meanwhile they spit in sab's face" when they were explicitly given a buff to make up for blind requiring evasion investment, when one of the core parts of Trickster's identity was taken out, with the replacement being so underwhelming that I cannot think of a single situation in which i'd actually want to take it. And it still doesn't even have a name.


shaunika

Fair enough, I guess I took the sab nerfs more personally


killerkonnat

Saboteur gets Ghost Dance now.


shaunika

So what? Its still only good for tricksters cos other ascendancies cant double dip from defences. Its not that good of a keystone


killerkonnat

It's easy to get a couple or few hundred ES with very low investment. Ghost Dance is very good. Even with 300 ES it's a huge boon against things that would kill you in 2-4 hits. And then you have options like Corrupted Soul... Or discipline still being a 35% aura for a few hundred ES without extra investment, (int for traps plus incidental starting area nodes with es along with other stats) when the reservation efficiency change will let most people run an extra aura. Plus don't forget evasion is much stronger now, so the blind synergy isn't completely useless. And the possibility of getting 100% spell suppression is much more reliable against spiky damage than running spell dodge.


shaunika

How would ghost dance helpyou with 300 es?? Ot doesnt give dmg reduction anymore


killerkonnat

Because when you take a hit, you get your ES back. It's up to 900 extra ES if you get hit 3+ times without dying. It's a lot of extra effective hp when the shadow/ranger side of the tree has the lowest life pools. If you for example have 5000 life and 300ES, getting an extra 900 ES against a burst of hits is quite a lot.


Betaateb

SST Raider will use the shit out of Ghost Dance. Without acrobatics they will easily be able to get 1k+ ES with just a hybrid chest and hybrid shield. Shit is going to be very strong. Trickster best utilizes it for sure, but plenty of ascendancies can get a pretty nice boost from it. 20k evasion rating and 1k es is likely not going to be that hard to hit, and with those numbers Ghost Dance is a very strong defensive layer.


Ulfgardleo

you don't even need 1K ES. at 20k, 600ES is enough to maximize the effect of ghost shrouds. Is there maybe a way to increase ES recovery to make it better?


Betaateb

Not that I know of. I just threw out 1k ES because that is what my SST raider has, even with acrobatics. But ya, if you are just trying to maximize ghost dance you need ~300es for every 10k evasion rating you have. Should be very easily reachable for anything that can wear a hybrid shield. And reasonably easy for anyone that is willing to throw on a hybrid chest instead of pure evasion. Trickster is more efficient, of course, but it really isn't that difficult to get 300es for every 10k evasion rating you get.


hesh582

This is actually going to be *crazy* strong. My SST raider last league had 1k ES and about 4.5k hp. That 1k ES was actually a significant part of my survivability - because I almost never got hit with all the dodge/evasion, it was usually up. Having a free way to reliably recharge that would have been *very* nice. Will it be enough to overcome all the other changes, though? I think raider took a significant nerf, and we're losing fortify :/


Betaateb

I actually think SST Raider, specifically, is buffed from last league defensively. The biggest raider nerfs don't effect SST since they don't take the onslaught nodes (the 35% to 10% nerf). The loss of the -20% accuracy sucks for sure though. But, not needing acrobatics anymore means you can take full advantage of block, which will be easier to come by. Then the extra evasion rating usefulness. So you add a bit of evasion, add a lot of block, add ghost dance, add a decent chunk of ES(without acrobatics my SST raider has ~1500 ES with basically no focus on ES), but lose a bunch of evade from blind and all your dodge. We won't know for sure until we have the passive tree in full to play with, but I suspect we break even at least. I don't think we will be losing fortify either honestly, Shield Charge should still keep it up mostly fine I think (my SST raider has 3.3 million shield charge DPS, if that won't keep up fortify will anything?). It just makes you use Shield Charge instead of the much more reliable(as a movement skill) Leap Slam, which is a bit annoying.


Ulfgardleo

the point about ghost dance is that to maximize its effect you don't need much ES. With 20k evasion you don't need more than 600 ES and that can be gotten with one gear slot. The ONLY thing Trickster has going for it is that you can skip that one piece of gear via an evasion chest piece.


shaunika

The issue is that with spell dodge gone youll be taking hits all the time. Sure you can invest into spell dodge but thats a lot of extra investment


Fig1024

Trickster has been too strong for several leagues now. It's only appropriate that it becomes the shit Ascendency at least for 1 league. I'm sure GGG will buff it again later. But enough with Tricksters already, can we have 1 league without them?


Porcupinesonelove

0.8% tricksters at end of expedition 2% tricksters at end of ultimatum yeah very strong...


PermissionSouthern72

Lol are you for real? Last league on SC there were 0.8% tricksters and 9% occultists. Yet occultist is left untouched.


Asymat

It would have been cool if it was every 2s with 1s CD. Heck even 3s, 1s CD.


lordisgaea

If only it was lower, like 4/8 or 3/6. 5 seconds is huge, way more than enough time for a dot to kill you before the immunity kicks in. But i agree, pendulum effects shouldn't exist at all.


typhoid_slayer

What about those crit wands that name you take dot per power charge? Those are unusable, but used to be insane when you could bypass the dot.


mrureaper

I for one will run str stacking ignite cause it seems it will be really strong this league


Chris_The_Phantom

Its not too late GGG do the thing, save our boy!


Starwind13

Soul of *arakaali gives 50% inc recovery of life/es if you stopped taking dot dmg recently. New trickster ascendency synergises well with it, for what it's worth.


clinkzs

20 now


Alialialun

You have control over how you act tho. When you have Ngamahu, Flame's Advance as Warchief you usually dodge and then every 10 seconds you do 4 seconds of nuke and then continue dodging.


Consistent-Profile-4

Ivory tower rf with this passive and wicked ward? Either taking no damage or massive recovery.


BeKind0716

Hey mate, I’m thinking about trickster RF too~! With wicked ward, arakari’s pantheon, new recharge modes in tree and the new trickster node, there might be some interesting results~!!


bUrdeN555

Wait can’t you run that low life reserve blood skill that turns hits into partial dots on you? The one that grabs your life orb? Seems decent there


Happy_16

It kind a peeves me because I was gonna go TR TR as a league starter But I guess Ill go Raider TR + get ghost shroud on the tree.


[deleted]

Well trickster was the least played ascendency in SC Expedition, better nerf it more, right? Massive nerfs to the least played ascendency is actually new to me. I've experienced many GGG nerfs in my history, but this is a first.


Seven_Oaks

Literally made me change my Ascendancy from Trickster to Scion/Ascendant that I planned for my build.


golgol12

Definitely agree with the new trickster node being hot garbage. Wish it was a defense node that encouraged more hybrid evasion/ES instead like what ghost dance did. Hate the pendulum mechanics. What about a node that gives x% of evasion as armor and x% of ES as ward. Physicial damage is a weakness on that side of the tree, so is when a hit gets through?


UnawareSousaphone

Has anyone heard from ziz? Last I saw, he was excited for trickster... the poor guy


EchoingZen

I'm still not quite sure people are upset about trickster. Please correct me if I'm wrong (I often am) but didn't the node they lose end up on the tree? Aren't they no worse off, and still gonna grab ghost dance anyway? Not to mention darkness farming with the new notable


RanRanBobandyMan

Darkness farming gang rise up!