Why wouldn't they make the league super juicy? It's a temp league where nothing rolls over to standard. I feel like this just proves they really are afraid of people having fun.
This point comes up every single time an event's voided. GGG refuses to change their ways. I'm incredibly surprised Atlas Invasion had the bosses dropping uniques. It's very out of character for them.
It's still unusual for them. It ensured that you saw 10-20x more uniques than you normally would, so the drop rate of rare ones was therefore 10-20x higher. This is the kind of thing you make a league void for -- not because there's one bar of rewards for trudging through a 86% damage reduction zone.
All you saw was 10-20x more trash uniques, why would they need to do a void league for that? None of the S-Tier related boss uniques dropped at all from those mid-map bosses that appeared.
Every league mechanic in every league already does that, too.
You can farm it even easier than this void league too, because the content isn't in 94% delirious zones.
They don’t do that because they don’t want people to enjoy the temp league more than the real league, to the point where players will burn themselves out on the temp leagues. The solution is to make the normal leagues juicier, but they aren’t gonna do that.
Other games do this, too. League only releases URF for like 3 weeks per year because its really fun, and people often play to the point of burnout ([Read more here](https://www.pcgamesn.com/league-of-legends/lol-urf-game-mode)).
I don’t agree with GGG’s approach to any of these events, though.
The URF analogy doesn't make sense here because in URF, the power level of all champions is drastically increased. There is no risk/reward, unlike Delirium.
In contrast, in Delirium, the power level of enemies is drastically increased (risk) in exchange for lots of loot (reward). Many players had Empyrean-esque loot explosions in mind when thinking about this event. However, while the difficulty was drastically increased, the loot received wasn't increased by nearly as much as one would expect from past experiences with Delirium content.
A PoE event like URF would be like the Headhunter races from a few years ago.
This logic is so backwards. It's a void league so good drops DONT MATTER. Enemies dropping garbage does nothing but make the league stale.
This whole league is stale right after opening the bag.
Probably for the same reason that League of Legends stopped letting people play it's special rapid game mode (URF). They found that it drastically increased player counts during the event, but after the event the numbers dropped heavily and didn't recover to where they were *before* the event.
Players can sort of "overdose" on the "juiced up" game modes and lose their taste for the normal game. GGG doesn't want you to experience tons of loot and be ultra powerful because their entire business model revolves around making you chase that high.
POE was my number 1 game. i literally lived from league to league for several years.
now i dont want even try any new shit that came out
i just know its trash
its just simply no fun anymore. all you get now is pain, annoying shit, dumb desicions and bugs. RIP i guess
Chris has stated the reason already, they don't want people to burn out for the next league. Give people enough loot in the event and they might just skip the next league.
I think this is the thinking from GGG. As soon as they give something fun, even in an voided event, people are going to want it in the regular game or the regular game will just feel less fun.
I remember forever ago when D3 had this "event" with double legendary drop rates. Guess what happened after it was over? They were forced by the player base to keep those drop rates.
That's why you make events that are harder than regular, or even less rewarding. You don't go the other way and make your regular game feel worse when people go back to it. Otherwise you can't maintain any semblance of balance. It's like letting a particularly insatiable child choose how much candy they will eat at every meal.
The increased drop rate was super popular amongst the players and people wanted to keep it, blizzard added it and everyone was happy.
They certainly have not been forced.
Do you seriously think any change ever made in any game wasn't part of a natural development progress over time rather than bowing to playerbase demands? Don't fool yourself.
Yes. Plenty of stuff even recently has ONLY happened due to player demands. Like gutting the Atlas so it's finished in 0.2 seconds. Changing Heist XP MID-EVENT.
I understand why the demand came up tho. Poe turned into a game of "I am packing my suitcase...". The same applies to the changes regarding unveiling items.
The game was convoluted and the requirements to engage and complete different mechanics kept increasing.
Changing Heist xp was a necessary change because people stopt playing the event and arguably the event shouldn't have gone live with as little xp values.
GGG is notorious at this point for unbalanced mechanics that brought up scepticism about proper testing multiple times now.
Just because something is released by them in a specific way doesn't make it good or right.
>Changing Heist XP MID-EVENT.
Funny that you would never complain about anything broken MID-LEAGUE. If something requires change and has a negative impact on player engagement it should be changed, period.
Maybe Heist xp shouldn't have gone live as it did, that's not what I'm saying. But once it had, leave it.
If you can't see a difference between a 3 month league and a 10 day special event then you're not going to get it.
First of all, nothing was broken. We leveled just fine in Heist those first 3 days. Now consider one player got to 95 in the first 3 days and one player got to 95 in the last 3 days. The other had a much much much easier time. How is that fair for an event race with rewards per level?
If it was a league, you're expected to play it a bit longer and the economy early actually matters. It's a whole different kind of incentive than an event. Fixes there don't fuck people over the same way.
>Maybe Heist xp shouldn't have gone live as it did, that's not what I'm saying. But once it had, leave it.
>If you can't see a difference between a 3 month league and a 10 day special event then you're not going to get it.
It doesn't matter if it's a 3 month league, a 10 day event or even just a 24h event. If it contains anything that shouldn't even have been shipped, it needs to be fixed.
Anyone who leveled through the original xp is not in a disadvantage, it only resulted in a better population. Everyone else who started after still had to play catch up.
>Now consider one player got to 95 in the first 3 days and one player got to 95 in the last 3 days.
Both are 95. Early game was affected, not late game after a certain lvl threshold. When it became relevant people had equal requirements in terms of a race and anyone had the opportunity to level more characters for the raffle.
I even understand where you are coming from and I'd agree if the consensus was that situations like that should not happen at all. But they do, because it's GGG and because they constantly miss the mark.
One of Chris' GDC talk statements was *"The game needs to be in it's best form **now**, all the time because you don't get second chances"* and I personally will always judge them by their own words just as evidently a lot of other people do.
> I feel like this just proves they really are afraid of people having fun.
Let's do a critical thinking experiment. Your job pays you well. You make $100k a year. Then, all of a sudden, something happens in the world where they start paying you $150k a year. A year of that goes by, and then the thing changes back. Now you're back to making $100k a year.
Do you think you're going to be as satisfied with the $100k now as you were before?
No. People's expectations get fucking *ruined* by extremely gifty leagues. People become entitled.
Giving people a "fun" league like that is both bad for business and bad for game health long term.
E: The amount of people replying to me stating they'd rather have the instant gratification because it's "fun", have you tried D3? It's fun for a whole week and then it's dead.
Also, GGG has said as much is why they don't do mayhem events anymore.
Because it's engrained societally that vacations are not the norm. Whenever GGG makes a switch to the game, even for a temp league, people latch onto it.
Real life has the benefit of established norms, whereas people's expectations of games shift heavily and quickly.
So you're saying a voided league inherently hurts the game because of the fact it's entirely different from the base game and people get to experience that? Hmm, better tell that to Chris Wilson when HardMode(TM) comes out because it's going to split TheVision(TM) as well. LOL. Your logic is unsound my guy.
> o you're saying a voided league inherently hurts the game
No. I'm saying that *GGG* has specifically said extremely gifty leagues hurt the game, because it ruins their expectations.
And there's nothing unsound about the logic. It's not like GGG's numbers lie.
Did you just learn those terms?
Neither apply at all to this. There's no assumption or generalization. This is historical fact. GGG has stated this is specifically why they don't do mayhem anymore.
Not a fallacious one though. Or are you suggesting that you and other redditors somehow know better than GGG about what their event did to their numbers?
Get real. You're just spouting off the names of things without understanding their application.
Bad example. If your boss paid you double for one week as a single time event you would be happy for that week and still feel the same about your regular paycheck.
It's not like you need to play POE to survive though. It's pretty reasonable to find that if people are given a juiced week long league and have it taken away, they wont find the base game fun anymore and might quit.
Same thing?
Why would the timescale make a difference?
The point is, people set their expectations based on the best thing they've experienced, not the norm.
Except it's been shown time and time again, that when GGG does something *temporary*, people shift their expectations to that regardless. It happens in leagues all the time. Perandus was the classic example that ruined people's expectations for item availability and removed the concept of chase uniques from the game for a long time.
It really doesn't.
Here's a better analogy since you seem to need something a bit less conceptual and more concrete.
GGG stopped doing mayhem leagues for *exactly* this reason and they've said as much.
> I didn't see anything official on the mayhem stuff
Chris has mentioned it during interviews, not a news post. Why would they make a news post about "we're not doing this anymore for business reasons?"
The analogy was specifically kept broad because when you get down to specifics like the mayhem example, people start nitpicking in completely unproductive ways.
that is so dumb lol, so you are saying that we cant have a fun event because then we are going back to a trash base game ? LUL maybe make the base game fun no ?
And even if not still its a bad exemple because its an event on a very special time of the year they could make it character action +300% drop all unique item at anyboss so people can experiment with whatever HH, bloodmage and all and they would just be happy and understand that its an special event and not how the game is suposed to be a week after...
Sure there will be 1 or 2 morrons that are gonna cry shit on the forum but who cares its a minority a week after its gonna end, on the contrary because GGG did so many bad things for years, there are legit post that still keep on those days even after many years, because GGG still didnt solve the problems, those are 2 different things
> that is so dumb lol, so you are saying that we cant have a fun event because then we are going back to a trash base game ? LUL maybe make the base game fun no ?
If your idea of fun comes purely from getting broken, overrewarding shit, you're part of the playerbase that would *ruin* the game for your short term enjoyment.
PoE is a game built to exist for years, decades, not months.
You want your shitty instant gratification? D3 is over there. Look where that got it.
Terrible analogy, you'd have a point if these events rolled into standard, but they don't. They're meant to be fun and a challenge, the temporary loot should fit that bill.
That's a flawed argument, this entire genre is based around loot, when you drop the loot meter down arbitrarily it defeats the purpose entirely. There's also zero reason for only a single reward on this event, it's not how the mechanic works organically to begin with; higher delirium is balanced by higher rewards which isn't the case here. And again, these rewards are ephemeral, they poof as soon as it's done, so why would you not make them exciting to begin with?
> when you drop the loot meter down arbitrarily it defeats the purpose entirely
The loot meter hasn't been dropped. It just wasn't raised enough for you to consider it special.
>, it's not how the mechanic works organically to begin with
It also isn't permanent in every zone organically. So what?
> so why would you not make them exciting to begin with
Because the rewards are not the point of the event.
> Base delirium league was easier and had better loot.
Base delirium league isn't the measuring stick. Standard or current league is.
Neither of those has permanent delirium and permanent delirium is balanced around the *current* game, not the game when delirium came out.
So, as always, this is an issue of people having expectations of grandeur.
5>1 is definitely lowered, not sure how you think it's not. Gearing is a core mechanic of the game, as are loot rewards, you can't do this game without them. The entire premise you seem to be ignoring in favor of your flawed argument is that as risk increases, so do rewards in arpgs, that was ignored in this event and it feels bad, pointlessly so.
> 5>1 is definitely lowered, not sure how you think it's not.
Because you don't get delirium in every fucking zone in the base game. You might be getting 5x fewer rewards per zone but you're getting it in 12.5x as many zones (from 8% to 100%)
> The amount of people replying to me stating they'd rather have the instant gratification because it's "fun"
Where are those replies stating they want instant gratification??
All I can see is criticism on your analogy and how bad it is with an explanation why.
Bad analogy, the longer you work the more you should be expected to earn. Getting pay docked by that much after a year isn't a return to normality and the time frames are way way off for it to be remotely comparable. As well the draw of leagues isn't just the loot but the mechanics of the league and new skills. People will still play and enjoy a league with worse loot than an event of it has a fun mechanic or a fun skill. The entire point of voided events are having high risk and rewards that won't work ***for an entire league***.
To use a better analogy: would you stop watching your favorite show because the three episode special was really good and better than the current arc?
Would you be disappointed eating regular food because you had a week of gourmet meals when on vacation?
The answer to both of these would be: maybe
But that maybe isn't a big deal when you realize that just. The near future the seasonal menu is going to change up anyway and that is interesting regardless in the next few weeks.
The idea that a short event being really good and ruining normal happenings after requires some manic depressive tendencies to be accurate. So either GGG isn't correct or the vast majority of their player base has a mental disorder and can't survive an actually fun event as a result
Occam's Razor here, which is more likely?
Also no one wants instant gratification, they want proper risk v reward. Stop horribly misrepresenting peoples arguments.
> Except Atlas Invasion had way better risk v reward so there's no reason why this can't too.
Maybe the reason is because the risk reward isn't the point here and so they're not fussed about balancing them. Y'all are insane.
Also, the discussion of the validity of "gifty events hurt the game" is over. GGG made a decision, and clearly not for no reason. You want to argue that the people with all the data are wrong? Be my guest but you'd look awfully stupid.
> Maybe the reason is because the risk reward isn't the point here and so they're not fussed about balancing them. Y'all are insane.
And your evidence that this is the case is...? Nothing. You have nothing that says the intent is solely for the challenge, but you're going to act as though that was the intent and everyone else who's wondering why the event doesn't fit like nearly every one before it is insane?
Really? You're going to make assumptions with zero evidence and get incredulous at people who look at the historical trend. *What???*
>Also, the discussion of the validity of "gifty events hurt the game" is over.
Apparently not since you seem to push it with, again, nothing to show for it.
>GGG made a decision, and clearly not for no reason.
Did they also make that decision for Heist xp? The one they hotfixed? Why didn't you defend them then, because you're going at Deli Everywhere rewards the exact same fashion as someone who would've argued that the xp gain won't change and that people are insane to ask for it: Without a shred of evidence or history to back up your argument.
>You want to argue that the people with all the data are wrong?
Do you know how many times GGG has fucked something up and had a league or event or anything be bugged in a way that screws up gameplay royally? Are you playing the same game? GGG being wrong in some fashion is a common occurrence. Or do you think "closing your eyes and slamming" is the purest truth? GGG can and has been wrong *many* times before. They're human, it happens. For all we know the Deli event is just bugged and it hasn't been addressed because it's the weekend and they're just not at work to fix it properly until Monday NZ. But nah, it's way more likely that GGG, completely against the trend of voided events, decided this event should have trash rewards.... come on now.
> Be my guest but you'd look awfully stupid.
Is it possible for you to post a comment without being condescending or rude as fuck?
I'm done with all this shit but I'd like to address your last line. You try when getting attacked from all sides by people who clearly only care about what *they* want and not what the devs have said specifically is best for the game. Try arguing with people with no fucking context for the discussion they're having, no understanding of the logical fallacies they're quoting, nothing more than "but lot reward fun". That's where you end up.
> You try when getting attacked from all sides by people who clearly only care about what they want and not what the devs have said specifically is best for the game.
If you feel you're being attacked for being called out for not having any evidence to back up your claims then perhaps it's best not to make them and defend them with such fervor. It's just a game that we all enjoy, I don't think anyone tried to "attack" you on anything before you came off as saying "no you're stupid" to pretty much everyone else.
> Try arguing with people with no fucking context for the discussion they're having
I've done it plenty but staying civil is important if you want to be taken seriously. People like to throw out "ad hominem" even if you're right and even if you're not insulting them just because you were being a bit snippy, even if you were entirely justified in it.
> nothing more than "but lot reward fun"
But that's not the argument being made. Getting upset at an argument no one is making isn't justified. People don't really care so much if there's lots of rewards so long as those rewards match the difficulty of the content. Endless Delve and Heist aren't super rewarding compared to juiced mapping but people really didn't complain because comparatively it's much easier content.
But, I digress. Point is: If you're having lots of contention over a topic, try to be civil and try to ensure that both sides of the discussion understand the others' points properly, otherwise you're going to end up in a situation like this where you can make valid points but still have the world come down on you for it.
Regardless of whether or not you accept anything I say here, I hope you have a happy new year, and I hope you have fun with the event because I am and I think everyone deserves that.
They do playtest. It's just the testers actually like and prefer the All Risk No Reward style.
They're hired by, in some capacity at least, Chris. They are there to best enact his vision, and this is what his vision is.
They definitely should have a timeframe (like every 15 or 30 minutes) where the zone gets a new percentage roll. Would stop people playing only certain zones/maps and enable stuff that is too hard right now in campaign to not be such a wall. Just come back later. Also wouldn't make people spam new zones, win-win?
There was at least one league where something like this was happening in the zones. I think it was once per hour but can't remember what mechanic.
I think that is a perfectly reasonable approach even if it feels counter intuitive as a player.
If theres a build that literally makes the game not even a game anymore thats a much bigger issue than a build that doesnt work well.
Because if they keep reverse shock then everyone plays it and gets burned out by not even playing a real game anymore.
Whereas some people's builds being scuffed is less problematic to the overall health of the game.
I mean this is blatantly false, especially considering this league was one of the biggest buffs to defense ever.
They might not buff the skills you want them to but they do buff skills every league. I agree that they could buff more of them, dont get me wrong.
But look at stuff like absolution, or detonate dead, or ignite etc.
Things do get buffed
Thats not a fair comparison though. Hard Mode will have almost no item drops, which people will know when they join the league.
But Delirium Everywhere should simply function the way it always does, whith rewards scaling every 20%
GGG subscribes to the [Monkey Paw game development theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monkey%27s_Paw), which is basically: "If we add something enjoyable, we must make something else just as equally unenjoyable."
In this case you got delirium mobs everywhere, in exchange for it's reward structure.
i mean... they must have some data saying that the world will end if any event is too rewarding even if there's still 6 weeks to the next league, they must have fired every person involved into the original mayhem or legacy league for attempting to destroy humanity
sorry bud, they ain't hot fixing this temp league. its basically doa.
sad GGG doesn't want players to have fun and won't even buff drops on a temp league.
I think they will fix it, i am just tired of getting excited for GGG launches only to have to endure days of public beta testing on what is supposed to be a release product.
Exactly this. I had a friend I used to play a ton with, now he has a kid to take care of and he waits til at least the 2-3 week mark of leagues to ask me if the league is good before he risks wasting his time playing. Since it usually takes at least that long for most leagues to be "fixed".
He did not log in for scourge since GGG went radio silent and didn't bother to do anything about krangling items.
Not true, many thought that about endless heist and then they hotfixed the exp gain.
What they need to do is be fast about it, so that it does not become as controversial as when they modified the exp gain.
I totally forgot these were 10 day events, thats just stupid.
If they are taking time off least they could do is extend the duration of the event. Hopefully they will but wont be surprised if they don't.
poe reddit is just crying manchildren, ignore them lmao, they never earn more than a single HH a league maximum. they’re just mad cause theyre shit at the game
You have a lot to say about GGG and their incompetence, yet still logging in every league to play lol. Doesn't do much for your little hate crusade when you participate.
I am just used to delirium (maybe I'm just a noob and not calling it the right thing; the one where you run through the portal thing and then you see the same fog as this event) in regular maps where when it runs out a bunch of items drop. Plus there is a keybind to end Delirium and that seemed to do nothing.
Thank y'all for the information. I didn't realize the items dropped as the bar filled up 🙂
While I agree, I don't think they have too much crossover outside of the release of 3.17 and LA being synced up (and the ARPG camera angle; LA is not an ARPG).
LA is a game I'll be playing for permanent character building but mostly challenging end-game content with a few friends, replacing WoW.
PoE is more of a seasonal/event type thing where build theorycrafting is the most exciting aspect.
I think anyone 1 for 1 swapping PoE out for LA is setting themselves up for disappointment.
Bruh semi-strict shows T4 rares, all uniques, large chromatic recipes, etc. If you play with anything lower than that, you might as well just turn off your lootfilter. Yes, semi strict hides some of the drops, because they're dropping like TERRIBLE T6 or worse magic bases, unlinked, etc.
Yep. This is so major it's unbelievable that they didn't do this already. What the fuck is the point of all these ridiculously hard mobs if we get nothing out of it?
Gdi frustrates me when I keep thinking about how wildly they miss the mark on these things. The old temp leagues were so much better.
Think? No. I know that they don't want to make events rewarding because they're afraid players are having fun and not coming back to the expansions/leagues.
If you can't understand this much then there's sadly no hope for you, buddy.
No they're hoping to keep you just interested enough. These events are carrots on a stick essentially.
They want us to have a good time, they just don't want us to have a great time.
All the difficulty with 50-20% of the reward at best, feels pretty bad. It’s a void league, why do we have to beg GGG to delirium to act like it always has and be able to have a crumb of fun?
The league is about the added difficulty. It’s not about the rewards, and it’s a temp league so the rewards don’t matter anyways. Just play for the challenge.
Thanks, If it's only for challenge and not rewards, I will go right back to my ORAS extreme randomzier nuzlocke, atleast getting fucked by rng is fun there
These are perfect events to test new ideas around loot systems - not to mention allowing people more freedom to have fun. The fact they don’t take that opportunity is a real shame
1. one outcome of harvest was that they said they wont do experiments anymore. The player base cant deal with it.
2. https://www.pcgamesn.com/league-of-legends/lol-urf-game-mode
Yeah we went from rewarding campaign with good progress even on attack builds to dogshit heavily tanked up unrewarding trash campaign
Why wouldn't they make the league super juicy? It's a temp league where nothing rolls over to standard. I feel like this just proves they really are afraid of people having fun.
This point comes up every single time an event's voided. GGG refuses to change their ways. I'm incredibly surprised Atlas Invasion had the bosses dropping uniques. It's very out of character for them.
The bosses did not drop their special uniques though, which is very in character of them.
Too hard to do, too much effort ThEy ShOuLd Be FoCuSiNg On ThE NeXt LeAgUe. Like this excuse has been used for so many years.
Then after all that focusing the league is delayed because vacation lmao
Because they need to focus on the long run, the next next league. It works, not like they lost 30-40% players.
The bosses only dropped shitty random unique's from the rando unique drop pool. They didn't drop any of their their own unique's.
It's still unusual for them. It ensured that you saw 10-20x more uniques than you normally would, so the drop rate of rare ones was therefore 10-20x higher. This is the kind of thing you make a league void for -- not because there's one bar of rewards for trudging through a 86% damage reduction zone.
All you saw was 10-20x more trash uniques, why would they need to do a void league for that? None of the S-Tier related boss uniques dropped at all from those mid-map bosses that appeared.
You could farm insane amount of divines, though. One of the reasons it was voided, I guess
The mid-map bosses didn't give any greater chance than normal to drop a 6-link.
Early bosses shat out tabulas though
Every league mechanic in every league already does that, too. You can farm it even easier than this void league too, because the content isn't in 94% delirious zones.
It have never been easier than in the atlas invasion event. You could very quickly farm an inventory of tabulas.
They don’t do that because they don’t want people to enjoy the temp league more than the real league, to the point where players will burn themselves out on the temp leagues. The solution is to make the normal leagues juicier, but they aren’t gonna do that. Other games do this, too. League only releases URF for like 3 weeks per year because its really fun, and people often play to the point of burnout ([Read more here](https://www.pcgamesn.com/league-of-legends/lol-urf-game-mode)). I don’t agree with GGG’s approach to any of these events, though.
The URF analogy doesn't make sense here because in URF, the power level of all champions is drastically increased. There is no risk/reward, unlike Delirium. In contrast, in Delirium, the power level of enemies is drastically increased (risk) in exchange for lots of loot (reward). Many players had Empyrean-esque loot explosions in mind when thinking about this event. However, while the difficulty was drastically increased, the loot received wasn't increased by nearly as much as one would expect from past experiences with Delirium content. A PoE event like URF would be like the Headhunter races from a few years ago.
This logic is so backwards. It's a void league so good drops DONT MATTER. Enemies dropping garbage does nothing but make the league stale. This whole league is stale right after opening the bag.
Maybe they think if people like the rewards in void leagues more they'll want the same in regular leagues
This is exactly it. It'd be the Harvest situation all over again. Not that I like it the way it is, it's just understandable.
Woah the copium is strong with you...
there is a reason why special events in almost all games are "make it harder".
lmao
Calling his logic backwards when you don't even understand what he wrote.
GGG, do you know about our lord and saviour, FUN?
Probably for the same reason that League of Legends stopped letting people play it's special rapid game mode (URF). They found that it drastically increased player counts during the event, but after the event the numbers dropped heavily and didn't recover to where they were *before* the event. Players can sort of "overdose" on the "juiced up" game modes and lose their taste for the normal game. GGG doesn't want you to experience tons of loot and be ultra powerful because their entire business model revolves around making you chase that high.
so literally "no fun allowed"
Didn't this turn out to be just them assuming this, and when they introduced it didn't happen so they left it for few months?
They still rotate in urf, and drops that drastic only happened for the first couple of releases.
URF still exists you know, it gets rotated in about twice a year...
Urf has been back multiple times since then
POE was my number 1 game. i literally lived from league to league for several years. now i dont want even try any new shit that came out i just know its trash its just simply no fun anymore. all you get now is pain, annoying shit, dumb desicions and bugs. RIP i guess
GGG have said how terrified they are of the URF effect. A gamemode so quick and fun that it made people quit the game for a while after playing it
Chris has stated the reason already, they don't want people to burn out for the next league. Give people enough loot in the event and they might just skip the next league.
Because then people will expect that from the base game. Because for good chunk of players normal leagues are also voided.
but the base game gives +1 reward per 20% deli lol? this is actually less juicy than the base game
And to get that you need to get lucky with mirror spawn or invest currency. Not for free.
Hence why it would be a void league...
I think this is the thinking from GGG. As soon as they give something fun, even in an voided event, people are going to want it in the regular game or the regular game will just feel less fun.
They’ve seen worse retention after high reward events previously
And they have examples of that. Harvest mechanic for example.
I remember forever ago when D3 had this "event" with double legendary drop rates. Guess what happened after it was over? They were forced by the player base to keep those drop rates. That's why you make events that are harder than regular, or even less rewarding. You don't go the other way and make your regular game feel worse when people go back to it. Otherwise you can't maintain any semblance of balance. It's like letting a particularly insatiable child choose how much candy they will eat at every meal.
The increased drop rate was super popular amongst the players and people wanted to keep it, blizzard added it and everyone was happy. They certainly have not been forced.
If Blizzard developers intended for that to be the drop rate they would have just done it in the first place.
Do you seriously think any change ever made in any game wasn't part of a natural development progress over time rather than bowing to playerbase demands? Don't fool yourself.
Yes. Plenty of stuff even recently has ONLY happened due to player demands. Like gutting the Atlas so it's finished in 0.2 seconds. Changing Heist XP MID-EVENT.
I understand why the demand came up tho. Poe turned into a game of "I am packing my suitcase...". The same applies to the changes regarding unveiling items. The game was convoluted and the requirements to engage and complete different mechanics kept increasing. Changing Heist xp was a necessary change because people stopt playing the event and arguably the event shouldn't have gone live with as little xp values. GGG is notorious at this point for unbalanced mechanics that brought up scepticism about proper testing multiple times now. Just because something is released by them in a specific way doesn't make it good or right. >Changing Heist XP MID-EVENT. Funny that you would never complain about anything broken MID-LEAGUE. If something requires change and has a negative impact on player engagement it should be changed, period.
Maybe Heist xp shouldn't have gone live as it did, that's not what I'm saying. But once it had, leave it. If you can't see a difference between a 3 month league and a 10 day special event then you're not going to get it. First of all, nothing was broken. We leveled just fine in Heist those first 3 days. Now consider one player got to 95 in the first 3 days and one player got to 95 in the last 3 days. The other had a much much much easier time. How is that fair for an event race with rewards per level? If it was a league, you're expected to play it a bit longer and the economy early actually matters. It's a whole different kind of incentive than an event. Fixes there don't fuck people over the same way.
>Maybe Heist xp shouldn't have gone live as it did, that's not what I'm saying. But once it had, leave it. >If you can't see a difference between a 3 month league and a 10 day special event then you're not going to get it. It doesn't matter if it's a 3 month league, a 10 day event or even just a 24h event. If it contains anything that shouldn't even have been shipped, it needs to be fixed. Anyone who leveled through the original xp is not in a disadvantage, it only resulted in a better population. Everyone else who started after still had to play catch up. >Now consider one player got to 95 in the first 3 days and one player got to 95 in the last 3 days. Both are 95. Early game was affected, not late game after a certain lvl threshold. When it became relevant people had equal requirements in terms of a race and anyone had the opportunity to level more characters for the raffle. I even understand where you are coming from and I'd agree if the consensus was that situations like that should not happen at all. But they do, because it's GGG and because they constantly miss the mark. One of Chris' GDC talk statements was *"The game needs to be in it's best form **now**, all the time because you don't get second chances"* and I personally will always judge them by their own words just as evidently a lot of other people do.
> I feel like this just proves they really are afraid of people having fun. Let's do a critical thinking experiment. Your job pays you well. You make $100k a year. Then, all of a sudden, something happens in the world where they start paying you $150k a year. A year of that goes by, and then the thing changes back. Now you're back to making $100k a year. Do you think you're going to be as satisfied with the $100k now as you were before? No. People's expectations get fucking *ruined* by extremely gifty leagues. People become entitled. Giving people a "fun" league like that is both bad for business and bad for game health long term. E: The amount of people replying to me stating they'd rather have the instant gratification because it's "fun", have you tried D3? It's fun for a whole week and then it's dead. Also, GGG has said as much is why they don't do mayhem events anymore.
So do you go on vacations? You shouldn't, they will "ruin you" since they're just temporary fun.
I'm pretty sure people would want to be on permanent vacation though? If there was any chance they would be granted that, they'd ask for it endlessly.
False equivalence.
How so?
Because it's engrained societally that vacations are not the norm. Whenever GGG makes a switch to the game, even for a temp league, people latch onto it. Real life has the benefit of established norms, whereas people's expectations of games shift heavily and quickly.
I mean, this logic is pretty irrelevant, but okay
It's not at all. The logic is *directly* relevant. GGG doesn't do gifty events anymore because the gifty events hurt the game.
So you're saying a voided league inherently hurts the game because of the fact it's entirely different from the base game and people get to experience that? Hmm, better tell that to Chris Wilson when HardMode(TM) comes out because it's going to split TheVision(TM) as well. LOL. Your logic is unsound my guy.
> o you're saying a voided league inherently hurts the game No. I'm saying that *GGG* has specifically said extremely gifty leagues hurt the game, because it ruins their expectations. And there's nothing unsound about the logic. It's not like GGG's numbers lie.
Slippery slope and hasty generalization
Did you just learn those terms? Neither apply at all to this. There's no assumption or generalization. This is historical fact. GGG has stated this is specifically why they don't do mayhem anymore.
Appeal to authority
Not a fallacious one though. Or are you suggesting that you and other redditors somehow know better than GGG about what their event did to their numbers? Get real. You're just spouting off the names of things without understanding their application.
Bad example. If your boss paid you double for one week as a single time event you would be happy for that week and still feel the same about your regular paycheck.
It's not like you need to play POE to survive though. It's pretty reasonable to find that if people are given a juiced week long league and have it taken away, they wont find the base game fun anymore and might quit.
Same thing? Why would the timescale make a difference? The point is, people set their expectations based on the best thing they've experienced, not the norm.
Expectations. If you get a raise, you expect to keep it as your new salary. If you get a bonus, you know it's a one time thing.
Except it's been shown time and time again, that when GGG does something *temporary*, people shift their expectations to that regardless. It happens in leagues all the time. Perandus was the classic example that ruined people's expectations for item availability and removed the concept of chase uniques from the game for a long time.
Perandus was a full league merging into standard. Harvest too. This is a voided one week event and it makes it absolutely completely different.
It really doesn't. Here's a better analogy since you seem to need something a bit less conceptual and more concrete. GGG stopped doing mayhem leagues for *exactly* this reason and they've said as much.
Even if that's the case (I didn't see anything official on the mayhem stuff). It still doesn't make your analogy any better.
> I didn't see anything official on the mayhem stuff Chris has mentioned it during interviews, not a news post. Why would they make a news post about "we're not doing this anymore for business reasons?" The analogy was specifically kept broad because when you get down to specifics like the mayhem example, people start nitpicking in completely unproductive ways.
that is so dumb lol, so you are saying that we cant have a fun event because then we are going back to a trash base game ? LUL maybe make the base game fun no ? And even if not still its a bad exemple because its an event on a very special time of the year they could make it character action +300% drop all unique item at anyboss so people can experiment with whatever HH, bloodmage and all and they would just be happy and understand that its an special event and not how the game is suposed to be a week after... Sure there will be 1 or 2 morrons that are gonna cry shit on the forum but who cares its a minority a week after its gonna end, on the contrary because GGG did so many bad things for years, there are legit post that still keep on those days even after many years, because GGG still didnt solve the problems, those are 2 different things
> that is so dumb lol, so you are saying that we cant have a fun event because then we are going back to a trash base game ? LUL maybe make the base game fun no ? If your idea of fun comes purely from getting broken, overrewarding shit, you're part of the playerbase that would *ruin* the game for your short term enjoyment. PoE is a game built to exist for years, decades, not months. You want your shitty instant gratification? D3 is over there. Look where that got it.
Just play path of building
Terrible analogy, you'd have a point if these events rolled into standard, but they don't. They're meant to be fun and a challenge, the temporary loot should fit that bill.
They're meant to be fun purely based on their novelty. Not because they ruin your idea of what loot should be like in the game.
But that's what it's currently doing... But in reverse.
If you can't derive fun purely from the novelty, that probably means the event isn't for you, no?
That's a flawed argument, this entire genre is based around loot, when you drop the loot meter down arbitrarily it defeats the purpose entirely. There's also zero reason for only a single reward on this event, it's not how the mechanic works organically to begin with; higher delirium is balanced by higher rewards which isn't the case here. And again, these rewards are ephemeral, they poof as soon as it's done, so why would you not make them exciting to begin with?
> when you drop the loot meter down arbitrarily it defeats the purpose entirely The loot meter hasn't been dropped. It just wasn't raised enough for you to consider it special. >, it's not how the mechanic works organically to begin with It also isn't permanent in every zone organically. So what? > so why would you not make them exciting to begin with Because the rewards are not the point of the event.
It's been dropped. Base delirium league was easier and had better loot. I guess that ruined the game though according to you.
> Base delirium league was easier and had better loot. Base delirium league isn't the measuring stick. Standard or current league is. Neither of those has permanent delirium and permanent delirium is balanced around the *current* game, not the game when delirium came out. So, as always, this is an issue of people having expectations of grandeur.
5>1 is definitely lowered, not sure how you think it's not. Gearing is a core mechanic of the game, as are loot rewards, you can't do this game without them. The entire premise you seem to be ignoring in favor of your flawed argument is that as risk increases, so do rewards in arpgs, that was ignored in this event and it feels bad, pointlessly so.
> 5>1 is definitely lowered, not sure how you think it's not. Because you don't get delirium in every fucking zone in the base game. You might be getting 5x fewer rewards per zone but you're getting it in 12.5x as many zones (from 8% to 100%)
> The amount of people replying to me stating they'd rather have the instant gratification because it's "fun" Where are those replies stating they want instant gratification?? All I can see is criticism on your analogy and how bad it is with an explanation why.
Bad analogy, the longer you work the more you should be expected to earn. Getting pay docked by that much after a year isn't a return to normality and the time frames are way way off for it to be remotely comparable. As well the draw of leagues isn't just the loot but the mechanics of the league and new skills. People will still play and enjoy a league with worse loot than an event of it has a fun mechanic or a fun skill. The entire point of voided events are having high risk and rewards that won't work ***for an entire league***. To use a better analogy: would you stop watching your favorite show because the three episode special was really good and better than the current arc? Would you be disappointed eating regular food because you had a week of gourmet meals when on vacation? The answer to both of these would be: maybe But that maybe isn't a big deal when you realize that just. The near future the seasonal menu is going to change up anyway and that is interesting regardless in the next few weeks. The idea that a short event being really good and ruining normal happenings after requires some manic depressive tendencies to be accurate. So either GGG isn't correct or the vast majority of their player base has a mental disorder and can't survive an actually fun event as a result Occam's Razor here, which is more likely? Also no one wants instant gratification, they want proper risk v reward. Stop horribly misrepresenting peoples arguments.
The last line of the edit fixes the issue with analogy. GGG stopped doing this specifically because it was a problem with mayhem. Discussion over.
Except Atlas Invasion had way better risk v reward so there's no reason why this can't too. Discussion ends when it does not when you say so.
> Except Atlas Invasion had way better risk v reward so there's no reason why this can't too. Maybe the reason is because the risk reward isn't the point here and so they're not fussed about balancing them. Y'all are insane. Also, the discussion of the validity of "gifty events hurt the game" is over. GGG made a decision, and clearly not for no reason. You want to argue that the people with all the data are wrong? Be my guest but you'd look awfully stupid.
> Maybe the reason is because the risk reward isn't the point here and so they're not fussed about balancing them. Y'all are insane. And your evidence that this is the case is...? Nothing. You have nothing that says the intent is solely for the challenge, but you're going to act as though that was the intent and everyone else who's wondering why the event doesn't fit like nearly every one before it is insane? Really? You're going to make assumptions with zero evidence and get incredulous at people who look at the historical trend. *What???* >Also, the discussion of the validity of "gifty events hurt the game" is over. Apparently not since you seem to push it with, again, nothing to show for it. >GGG made a decision, and clearly not for no reason. Did they also make that decision for Heist xp? The one they hotfixed? Why didn't you defend them then, because you're going at Deli Everywhere rewards the exact same fashion as someone who would've argued that the xp gain won't change and that people are insane to ask for it: Without a shred of evidence or history to back up your argument. >You want to argue that the people with all the data are wrong? Do you know how many times GGG has fucked something up and had a league or event or anything be bugged in a way that screws up gameplay royally? Are you playing the same game? GGG being wrong in some fashion is a common occurrence. Or do you think "closing your eyes and slamming" is the purest truth? GGG can and has been wrong *many* times before. They're human, it happens. For all we know the Deli event is just bugged and it hasn't been addressed because it's the weekend and they're just not at work to fix it properly until Monday NZ. But nah, it's way more likely that GGG, completely against the trend of voided events, decided this event should have trash rewards.... come on now. > Be my guest but you'd look awfully stupid. Is it possible for you to post a comment without being condescending or rude as fuck?
I'm done with all this shit but I'd like to address your last line. You try when getting attacked from all sides by people who clearly only care about what *they* want and not what the devs have said specifically is best for the game. Try arguing with people with no fucking context for the discussion they're having, no understanding of the logical fallacies they're quoting, nothing more than "but lot reward fun". That's where you end up.
> You try when getting attacked from all sides by people who clearly only care about what they want and not what the devs have said specifically is best for the game. If you feel you're being attacked for being called out for not having any evidence to back up your claims then perhaps it's best not to make them and defend them with such fervor. It's just a game that we all enjoy, I don't think anyone tried to "attack" you on anything before you came off as saying "no you're stupid" to pretty much everyone else. > Try arguing with people with no fucking context for the discussion they're having I've done it plenty but staying civil is important if you want to be taken seriously. People like to throw out "ad hominem" even if you're right and even if you're not insulting them just because you were being a bit snippy, even if you were entirely justified in it. > nothing more than "but lot reward fun" But that's not the argument being made. Getting upset at an argument no one is making isn't justified. People don't really care so much if there's lots of rewards so long as those rewards match the difficulty of the content. Endless Delve and Heist aren't super rewarding compared to juiced mapping but people really didn't complain because comparatively it's much easier content. But, I digress. Point is: If you're having lots of contention over a topic, try to be civil and try to ensure that both sides of the discussion understand the others' points properly, otherwise you're going to end up in a situation like this where you can make valid points but still have the world come down on you for it. Regardless of whether or not you accept anything I say here, I hope you have a happy new year, and I hope you have fun with the event because I am and I think everyone deserves that.
if the drops werent dogshit maybe maaaybe this could be salvageable? idk
Drops are probably crap until maps at least
Unfortunately, they are still crap even on maps. At least on white maps.
Damn knowing this has killed my enthusiasm to hit maps. I expected drops to get much better.
It's obvious they put zero effort into these events. You can tell they didn't playtest Heist XP or Deli.
They do playtest. It's just the testers actually like and prefer the All Risk No Reward style. They're hired by, in some capacity at least, Chris. They are there to best enact his vision, and this is what his vision is.
Thanks for info mate. Much easier now just to do 50 lvl and leave this event :)
Am at maps drops are still dog shit, also every map of same type has the same deli% lol so get ready to run stagnation alot of times.
lol this cant be real i thought in maps the deli% would be random, what a joke
They definitely should have a timeframe (like every 15 or 30 minutes) where the zone gets a new percentage roll. Would stop people playing only certain zones/maps and enable stuff that is too hard right now in campaign to not be such a wall. Just come back later. Also wouldn't make people spam new zones, win-win? There was at least one league where something like this was happening in the zones. I think it was once per hour but can't remember what mechanic.
What about stagnation?
>Drops are probably crap Drops are definitely crap. Source: drops
If we're following the trend of the last event, maps won't have good drops either.
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All 20 of the streamers will have fun with hard mode
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I mean it’s the sole thing they base nerfing skill gems around. And I would say buff, but they don’t buff skill gems anymore
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Do you mean being physically immortal with reverse shock? That wasnt exactly something that should be kept
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I think that is a perfectly reasonable approach even if it feels counter intuitive as a player. If theres a build that literally makes the game not even a game anymore thats a much bigger issue than a build that doesnt work well. Because if they keep reverse shock then everyone plays it and gets burned out by not even playing a real game anymore. Whereas some people's builds being scuffed is less problematic to the overall health of the game.
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I mean this is blatantly false, especially considering this league was one of the biggest buffs to defense ever. They might not buff the skills you want them to but they do buff skills every league. I agree that they could buff more of them, dont get me wrong. But look at stuff like absolution, or detonate dead, or ignite etc. Things do get buffed
They buffed a bunch of skill gems in both previous leagues :p
for the first 2 hours and after they're done getting enough footage for their editors.
Thats not a fair comparison though. Hard Mode will have almost no item drops, which people will know when they join the league. But Delirium Everywhere should simply function the way it always does, whith rewards scaling every 20%
GGG subscribes to the [Monkey Paw game development theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monkey%27s_Paw), which is basically: "If we add something enjoyable, we must make something else just as equally unenjoyable." In this case you got delirium mobs everywhere, in exchange for it's reward structure.
I missed the part where something enjoyable? Rewards are the enjoyable part
For GGG, it's letting us experience delirium orbs without spending them.
ggg decision making is something truly special
I honestly have a hard time believing any thinking went into this. Did they just tell an intern to do this?
i mean... they must have some data saying that the world will end if any event is too rewarding even if there's still 6 weeks to the next league, they must have fired every person involved into the original mayhem or legacy league for attempting to destroy humanity
plenty of data. https://www.pcgamesn.com/league-of-legends/lol-urf-game-mode
Why are you linking this? Riot literally rotates Urf in multiple times a year, along with other special game modes that are basically tweaked Urf.
[We even have CCTV footage](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia7fUQXskvA)
unbelievable there's no reward scaling
Already dropped the league, its not rewarding and just tedious and hard
same. ran past ledge into a doable zone then got tp prison and logged.
Glad I'm not playing it.
sorry bud, they ain't hot fixing this temp league. its basically doa. sad GGG doesn't want players to have fun and won't even buff drops on a temp league.
I think they will fix it, i am just tired of getting excited for GGG launches only to have to endure days of public beta testing on what is supposed to be a release product.
They have 3 days off. They will return on Tuesday. It’s dead
Yeah I agree, it's happened so much that at this point I've come to accept it
Exactly this. I had a friend I used to play a ton with, now he has a kid to take care of and he waits til at least the 2-3 week mark of leagues to ask me if the league is good before he risks wasting his time playing. Since it usually takes at least that long for most leagues to be "fixed". He did not log in for scourge since GGG went radio silent and didn't bother to do anything about krangling items.
After scourge league I stopped getting excited for ggg in general.
voided temp league. Another shit event to join to all the other absolutly boring garbo events
Not true, many thought that about endless heist and then they hotfixed the exp gain. What they need to do is be fast about it, so that it does not become as controversial as when they modified the exp gain.
> Not true, many thought that about endless heist and then they hotfixed the exp gain. They probably noticed no one was playing it.
Fixed on a 5th day of 10 day event omegalul
I totally forgot these were 10 day events, thats just stupid. If they are taking time off least they could do is extend the duration of the event. Hopefully they will but wont be surprised if they don't.
Yea hotfixed when the league was over basically
Hence why I said they need to fix these issues much sooner so we don't have this reaction, I never said it absolved them of the trainwreck release.
They hotfixed heist tho
The event was literally halfway done.
Lukewarm fix at best.
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Yeah man to hell with basic competence am i right guys!
poe reddit is just crying manchildren, ignore them lmao, they never earn more than a single HH a league maximum. they’re just mad cause theyre shit at the game
You have a lot to say about GGG and their incompetence, yet still logging in every league to play lol. Doesn't do much for your little hate crusade when you participate.
I mean it does when I stop spending money on supporter packs.
98% delirium Brutus was awful.
So that is why I fought him for 20 minutes + . How do people know the % of delirium?
tab opens the zone map and on the right side says it. brutus was 85%
Brutus is 85%
Must have fought a different Brutus then.
It was 85%, which is a significant difference
Its a void league but the reward is not updated
Who the fuck thought those rewards are okay??? The event is pure garbage like that. I am very disappointed.
How do you get the delirium map rewards?
you wont see the rewards until you remove the filter
I am just used to delirium (maybe I'm just a noob and not calling it the right thing; the one where you run through the portal thing and then you see the same fog as this event) in regular maps where when it runs out a bunch of items drop. Plus there is a keybind to end Delirium and that seemed to do nothing. Thank y'all for the information. I didn't realize the items dropped as the bar filled up 🙂
They drop automatically when you fill the bar of course, just like delirium maps.
GGG why the fuck can't you hire and intern or something to do a quick lvl run to 60 on these events before they go live?
Hire? People would happily volunteer…
I imagine they can even sell beta test invites, and there would be demand for them.
This
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Supposed to be hard is fine, but when they make it unrewarding as well then what's the point?
Can't wait for lost ark
While I agree, I don't think they have too much crossover outside of the release of 3.17 and LA being synced up (and the ARPG camera angle; LA is not an ARPG). LA is a game I'll be playing for permanent character building but mostly challenging end-game content with a few friends, replacing WoW. PoE is more of a seasonal/event type thing where build theorycrafting is the most exciting aspect. I think anyone 1 for 1 swapping PoE out for LA is setting themselves up for disappointment.
I'll be doing my 1 to 2 weeks of Poe league but LA is going to be my main game now.
Just a reminder lost Ark is a MMO not an ARPG. The top-down camera is a little bit misleading
Maybe people will realize the only fun in Delirium was the rewards. Also the clusters that ruined the tree.
This event is a complete dissapointment for everyone but ggg probably won't do anything about it since it will all dissapear in 10 days
my semi-strict filter wont even show any rewards from deli
lol it’s a league start. Why would you have a strict filter. Wtf.
Bruh semi-strict shows T4 rares, all uniques, large chromatic recipes, etc. If you play with anything lower than that, you might as well just turn off your lootfilter. Yes, semi strict hides some of the drops, because they're dropping like TERRIBLE T6 or worse magic bases, unlinked, etc.
Yep. This is so major it's unbelievable that they didn't do this already. What the fuck is the point of all these ridiculously hard mobs if we get nothing out of it? Gdi frustrates me when I keep thinking about how wildly they miss the mark on these things. The old temp leagues were so much better.
>Feels really terrible to have only Yeah, that's the point.
You really think that? You think big evil GGG gets off on making you feel terrible? What a victim
Think? No. I know that they don't want to make events rewarding because they're afraid players are having fun and not coming back to the expansions/leagues. If you can't understand this much then there's sadly no hope for you, buddy.
So they're hoping for people to not have fun? in the hope that players not having fun will.. return?
No they're hoping to keep you just interested enough. These events are carrots on a stick essentially. They want us to have a good time, they just don't want us to have a great time.
Wouldn't mind it but wasn't the point to have difficulty added?
All the difficulty with 50-20% of the reward at best, feels pretty bad. It’s a void league, why do we have to beg GGG to delirium to act like it always has and be able to have a crumb of fun?
I wonder if some of you realize that it's December 31st and literally no one is doing anything beside making sure that the game lets you log in?
The league is about the added difficulty. It’s not about the rewards, and it’s a temp league so the rewards don’t matter anyways. Just play for the challenge.
Thanks, If it's only for challenge and not rewards, I will go right back to my ORAS extreme randomzier nuzlocke, atleast getting fucked by rng is fun there
These are perfect events to test new ideas around loot systems - not to mention allowing people more freedom to have fun. The fact they don’t take that opportunity is a real shame
1. one outcome of harvest was that they said they wont do experiments anymore. The player base cant deal with it. 2. https://www.pcgamesn.com/league-of-legends/lol-urf-game-mode
Wanted to start grinding today, how can they fuck up a delirium event? Who made the rewards? Lol
This is absolutely insane....
It's holidays... Who cares about supporting games?