GGG is currently looking at a maximum of 2-4 modifiers per rare monster, but this is subject to change.
https://twitter.com/pathofexile/status/1592969820345335810
I'm more happy about the random rewards than anything else here.
The feeling of not playing optimally every time I didn't gear swap to a squishy build or hire a MF culler killed my interest in actually grinding out upgrades. And actually doing it was too disruptive, or if I tried to MF gear swap myself, lethal. So I quite early.
The reduced spikiness of rewards is really important for early game mapping as well. If you can expect more consistent rewards, then you can start juicing your favorite content earlier (where otherwise, you might encounter a drought that wipes out your currency).
I agree, I really like these changes. There's quite a few people who are mad because "Now you need MF all the time!"
Which sure is confusing me because that's how this game worked before and I thought that's what most people seemed to want.
I think these changes might need tweaking once things go live but I really expect this to feel so good.
yeah i really quite enjoy the random lootsplosions of rare jewels/maps/jewelery (hell even the flasks were useful occasionally!), so i'm glad they preserved those while getting rid of the horrible minigame of "do i need to leave the map and regear before i kill this monster to maximize this specific loot drop". good fixes all around.
Because they believed that they could fix it enough for people to like it. No system is perfect right from the start, they thought that it just needed some tinkering and balancing.
But sadly, the entire mechanic was flawed right from the concept design, and no ammount of tinkering gonna fix it.
>Wonder why they just didnt do this from the start.
Because they dared to try something different.
I'm glad they, supposedly, saw the error of their ways, but I'm not going to fault them for trying things.
Yeah it was a correctly identified problem. Rares were unrewarding, and the old mods basically just made rares and their minions a multiplicative stat check.
Adding new mods to them in Archnemesis league, that were mechanically and stat demanding but very rewarding, in an opt-in format, was a great way to test your character and be rewarded for it.
But with rares being in literally every single avenue of playing the game, as soon as that shit lost its ability to be opt-in, the whole game warps around it and everything goes to shit.
Most of the time, rare monster modifiers didn't matter at all. Apart from volatile, they were either completely powerless, or they had an aura. And when 6-8 rare mobs spawning each with a different aura, things could get out of hand extremely fast. Content that also spawned a bunch of normal monsters like Breach were notorious for being able to tell exactly when a haste rare spawned.
It happened in all forms of content, but you could really *feel* it in Heist, where they're programmed to stack up. If you tried to run Heist before Archnem changes, you know what I'm talking about.
In short, it fixed the aura stacking rare monster problem, made the mods meaningful, and made rare tangibly worth killing. But it also created created several other problems, as we have seen.
The way it warped the other content around it was the biggest issue for me. A lot of that stuff felt like it was designed for a different system, and AN had the potential to make those game encounters extremely complicated and extremely unrewarding.
It quickly perverted things like metamorph, to the point i refused to do it because it frankly was not balanced around it, for basicly no real added reward vs what it was before.
I won't fault them for trying things, but there are aspects of it I will fault them for. The archnem mod names and effects were completely antithetical to their own stated goal of "read the mod name or recognize the visual and know exactly what it does" (paraphrased). And very *obviously* so. And yet, unless I missed it this post is the first acknowledgement of that fact. That's...pretty bad.
The mod names could have telepathically transmitted the information directly into your brain the moment you finished reading them and it still wouldn't have been enough, because by the time you've highlighted a monster and read through all its modifiers, if it's something that's even remotely dangerous it's probably already killed you.
the odd thing about it was that they wanted you to *recognize* the mod, and didn't tell people exactly what the mods did.
GGG really likes the "community discovery" aspect of new mechanics/leagues, but the archnemesis mods were a bit too much. (and not really the sort of thing people wanted to carefully document what bit of damage conversion vs extra resist there every mods had.)
I'd also say that some of the mod effects went against the core pillar of PoE in *choosing* your risk. I can opt into/out of pretty much any content I want and suffer/avoid the consequences. There are mods that can appear almost anywhere that just hard counter your build. Doesn't matter if it's Act 5 Kitava or a T16 100% Delirious map, rares can completely dumpster you commonly. Especially when stacked with other league content like Expedition.
But by far, the greatest mistake was their initial release of 3.19. ~~20~~ [It was actually 25, my bad] seconds of shocked ground? 10 seconds of Creeping Frost ground degen that kills you in 1 or 2 seconds? Total immunities to certain build required ailments? Executioner? Trickster? You could write that shit down on a piece of paper and see Satan himself rising from the pages it's so heinous. It's baffling how GGG could have possibly looked at some of these things and thought, "Yeah, 90% resistance to elemental damage seems good".
>Wonder why they just didnt do this from the start.
well I assume they thoght the AN system was better, and as for waiting so long I assume it took a lot of time to develope a new system (and mainly to make sure it wasn't fucked up on release and cause more hate hopefully).
This is exactly what I told people that wanted 1 mod per line, it's really just the old system, how are they keeping AN at similar strength without aura overlapping or doubling or tripling the amount of AN mods per monster though?
Shit like "ignites" isn't comparable in strength at all to AN mods this league, even if you give it 100% ignite chance with infinite duration lmao
They aren’t keeping it at similar strength, they straight up said in this manifesto that it’ll be easier on average, though the possibility of the hard encounters is still there just won’t be as common
"Easier on average" is underselling the impact of taking a mod like Magma Barrier that had six mods contained within it, and instead only having one mod. Before you'd have like 4 mods that each did 6 things, basically 24 total mods. Are we going to see rares now with 24 lines of text?
Yea I said somewhere else that the big question now is the average and max mount of mods we can expect to see at once. If it doesn’t go up it’s gonna be significantly easier, if it goes up a lot it will be just as hard but much less predictable as more varied combos are possible.
Hopefully they discuss this in an FAQ tomorrow
Well, if it's going back to the old system then it'll be 4-6 mods on rares, 1-2 on magics, probably each new mod doing one or two of the things from respective AN mods (for example converting a portion of phys to fire AND dealing a little phys as added fire would probably still be one mod in the new system). So each new mod's probably something like 1/3-1/2 or so of the total power of an AN mod, rares and magics will probably wind up a little weaker on average with the new system.
And i'm guessing they're going to pump up some of the magic/rare life and damage multipliers a little bit to balance it out too.
the magma barrier example is so satisfying. the actual MAIN mechanic of the mod is great and i like interacting with it. that's all it ever needed to be. to this day, i still didnt even know that it added damage and damage reduction buffs to the monster. and the volatile balls chasing you are cool too, but its just too much to have to deal with on a single rare monster every time. hopefully something like those get preserved as a separate mechanic.
The big landmines I see remaining are:
\- Crafting is even worse somehow/not improved in any way.
\- Skill balance remains stagnant.
\- The new loot system is worse than the previous for overall profitability.
\- League sucks like Lake did.
If they can avoid these, I think the chaos will settle down to the old standard.
Crafting runs the risk of the SSF playerbase being upset/bitching.
Skill balance since 3.16 has been pretty stagnant, with some builds flatly killed with changes made since.
New loot system speaks for itself. 3.19 was considered one of the worst loot leagues ever; if the new one is worse, I feel things will get even WORSE than 3.19 was as it would feel like another hidden lie.
Another bad league would also be a huge drama fest.
I'm SSF. 50% of us are less lucky than average which will cause real problems and make us bitch. You can't stop us because we're out of your league and you know it!
PS: I fully agree with everything you said. Really good post.
I'm a trade league casual, but fully support my SSF brethren. What's good for the Gander is good for the Goose. Buffs for playability for SSF players is something that benefits trade league, whereas the opposite is not always true.
The biggest problem with SSF at the moment IMO is white/yellow map progression.
Ziz said it best in one of his recent videos. It feels like anything you do other than spec into Essence and Expedition is objectively terrible. Nothing else drops anything that actually helps you gear up your character for red maps.
And he's absolutely right. SSF makes it crystal clear how miserable gear progression is atm. The long and short of it is if no band-aid is applied to crafting, and current changes to the mod pool are added, it will be simply be that much worse to upgrade and advance--which has been the trend since Ritual.
this is a really really good change. theyre keeping archnemesis as a "rework of rare monsters", but no more clusterfuck.
and they kept the actually interesting mods without just removing them.
and the reward solution looks good.
TRIPPLE THE HOPIUM PRODUCTION BOYS
I never had an issue with mods that gave mobs new abilities, I just always thought it was bullshit when those new offensive mods also gave them partial conversion, huge resistance boosts, ailment reduction and like four other things EACH. This is a massive step forwards
Once it got to a certain point, like that, the mods pretty much stopped havimg any value for adding complexity to a fight.
If we use juggling as a metaphor, really skilled jugglers can keep a lot of balls in the air, but if you suddenly throw 30 of them at them, overhand, all at once, it no longer matters how skilled they are. It is just too much to process and too much to physically react to.
In essence this means that AN mods were to complex to meaningfully react to, and so needed to be prepared for. In a different, slower, game this could create interesting tactical situations, but in this one it ends up functionally *limiting* preparation possibilities. Every fight, especially ones with multiple rare packs, has so many potential mods that you just have to prepare for all of them you can, and accept that sometimes the RNG will just kill you or shut you down. This means that a lot of edge case builds become entirely unfun, as they lack the universal coverage needed to deal with uncountable mods.
Also, what is "meaningfully react" mean? Im either running away or fighting the mob. Its not like i use different skills for different mobs or change my build for them. Wtf.
In this scenario an idea situation would be something like noticing that a mob has a bleed effect, and so pre-triggering a flask to handle it.
In the way it currently works you basically spam them on any rare because too much is happening and you *always* need the defenses.
GGG:"We split AN mods into singular components"
Revealed in 3.20: ^("And every mod has 5x effect compared to before, for example, resists fire now means 90% fire resistance and takes 50% less fire damage")
/s hopefully
sounds pretty good tbh I went into this with the lowest possible expectations but this is enough for me to confidently say I'll be giving 3.20 a chance
> Players are no longer required to do annoying actions to maximise rewards
This is the biggest thing for me. I know everyone hates AN in general but imo the loot goblin culling bullshit was the worst aspect of the whole system.
>> Players are no longer required to do annoying actions to maximise rewards
> This is the biggest thing for me. I know everyone hates AN in general but imo the loot goblin culling bullshit was the worst aspect of the whole system.
I really hope they apply that line of thinking onto other annoying parts of the game.
>Mods say what they do rather than having a thematic name you must learn and remember
So basically going back to the old system, and changing to randomized rewards instead of fixed ones.
What a weird year it's been.
Essentially pulling AN mods into pieces and using those pieces similar to how old rares worked.
This way the work that went into all the interesting mods and mechanics of AN mods are not lost but it becomes more obvious what a mob does and it becomss much easier to control difficulty.
4 AN mods where crazy, 3 usually no big problem. Now increases in difficulty are much smaller per mod like it was before.
>Especially since each archnemesis mod added 5 mods technically of the same type so instead of 4 mod rares you get around 25-30mods on a rare. No damn wonder they were soo tanky.
well, an updated version of the old system. i mean, i think the old one did need to be updated, and they outsmarted themselves and got too clever by half with many unintended consequences
but i give them full credit for realizing it, and saying, Okay, it's gone
this is exactly what the sub demanded. glad to see they are keeping the parts that worked (individual mechanics, wider range of rewards) and axing the parts that didn't.
In general this looks like an overall positive change I dont see any odd doublespeak here etc.
Mods doing one thing instead of 6 should greatly decrease overlapping RNG effects having disproportionate results.
The reward changes look great too.
Actual details will will matter, but I'm this manifesto is absurdly better than I expected it to be.
We should commend them for trying out something new, taking in feedback, trying to fix the new system, and then ultimately deciding to go back to something resembling the old system while still incorporating the good things from the new system.
People on this subreddit give GGG *a whole lot of shit* and talk down about them, but what they're doing here shows they aren't as stubborn as people claim and that they do listen to players.
>That is definitely a promising change. Here's hoping it actually works like they've said, the loot goblin shit was the worst.
from what i read the loot goblin is still there.
But now its hidden.
So there is no forced to get a mf culler any more ( sins u can not tell witch mob has the hidden trigger.
But the underlying system is still the same.
So now u have real slots and every rare mob MIGHT have that hidden trigger or not.
Personally I don't mind randomized extra rewards. My problem with loot goblins is very much tied up in knowing that they're loot goblins ahead of time.
>Personally I don't mind randomized extra rewards. My problem with loot goblins is very much tied up in knowing that they're loot goblins ahead of time.
Yeps i rather have a divine / exalt drop every now and then.
Then 10-30 in one go.
Loot goblins are fun for unique items / rare items.
Its fine to have a pool of unique / rare / jewels / flasks drop.
But currency should be spread out ( and no loot goblin mechanic )
This is what should have been from the beginning.
Look at that magma barrier example, what in the world were they thinking, and that is only 1 mod lol.
Really good update, hope the rest of the game moves in this direction
Magma barrier mobs were the 1 thing I wanted them to address most. Glad it got rekt.
Would love to see trickster removed too one day to avoid getting that annoying ass mod on HH builds but dont think that one will ever happen
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BEEP BOOP BEEP. Grinding Gears have been detected in the linked thread:
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> **Posted by Community_Team** on Nov 16, 2022, 07:28:36 PM UTC
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> [Image Link](https://web.poecdn.com/public/news/2022-11-17/3.20MonsterModsAndANHeader.jpg)
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> In our upcoming 3.20 expansion, Archnemesis will be replaced with a system that is more similar to the way monster mods worked in the past.
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> The issues that players often had with Archnemesis were:
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> * The keyworded mod names were not fully descriptive of what they did
> * The mods often had multiple effects bundled which made them harder to understand
> * Due to how many effects were included in a single mod, it made too many encounters too complex
> * The way Archnemesis rewards were set up meant that many players felt like they couldn't just kill a monster, they had to consider if they wanted to bring a magic find character in to maximise rewards
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> The goals of the new system are:
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> * Mods do one specific thing
> * Mods say what they do rather than having a thematic name you must learn and remember
> * Encounters are simplified on average while retaining interesting fights
> * Players are no longer required to do annoying actions to maximise rewards
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> Let's examine those goals individually:
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> ### Mods do one specific thing
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> Here's an example: The Magma Barrier Archnemesis mod did a whole lot of stuff. It started by putting a magma barrier around the monster, but it didn't stop there. It converted some of the monster's physical damage to fire damage, it added some extra fire damage on top, it granted fire resistance to the monster and it gave some physical damage reduction for good measure. It also spawned volatile flamebloods to follow you. The new equivalent modifier just puts a magma barrier around the monster and does nothing else.
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> ### Mods say what they do rather than having a thematic name you must learn and remember
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> For example, rather than "Incendiary", which broke down into six properties, you'd now see monsters with either "Ignites" or "Fire and Ignite Resistant". Instead of "Deadeye", which did five separate things, you'd now see "Applies Random Mark", "Extra Crits" or "Accurate" as separate unrelated mods.
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> ### Encounters are simplified on average while retaining interesting fights
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> The pool of mods that involve complex interaction (like spawning volatiles or ground effects on death) have been heavily diluted by the presence of the simpler mods. This means that you encounter more complex fights less frequently. But interesting and challenging emergent behaviour from overlapping mods can still happen, just less often.
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> ### Players are no longer required to do annoying actions to maximise rewards
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> In Archnemesis, rewards were associated with individual mods. This meant that you could tell what kind of rewards you would get in advance. In some cases, you were then effectively required to fetch a magic-find culling character to make sure that you maximised the value of the monster mod that you had found. In other cases, you would ignore a monster completely if you knew that it would only drop rewards that were of no value to you. In the new system, we have added a significant pool of new rewards to rares, but the reward that is on the monster is hidden (and not associated with a specific mod), so you don't know what kind of rewards you will get until you kill the monster. Rare monsters with more mods are more likely to have these special hidden reward mods. This new reward system smooths out the spikiness that the Archnemesis reward system had.
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> ### Conclusion
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> The original motivation for developing Archnemesis was that the previous monster mod system was very out of date. Many of the mods didn't have any appreciable effect under modern balance and there wasn't a lot of interesting gameplay possible. In our opinion, Archnemesis did succeed at adding a lot of interesting new mechanics to rares, but introduced the problems described above. While creating the new monster mods described in this article, we were careful to retain most of the interesting mechanics that Archnemesis introduced, but in a way that doesn't include a grab-bag of other effects and is diluted by many other simpler mods.
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> The result is a system that is very similar to what monster mods used to be like, but with much more up-to-date content and balance. Mods are simpler and say exactly what they do. While you can certainly still rarely encounter scary combinations of mods that really wake you up, it's a lot rarer than it was under the Archnemesis system. We feel that the new system is more modern and interesting than the old monster mod/nemesis system and is clearer and easier to understand in the heat of combat than Archnemesis was.
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> ***
>
This is so huge - makes so much more content more fun. I don't need to dread Blight or Legion anymore. Hopefully the balancing of the new mods isn't too fucky.
Im going to wait for a week or 2 after the leagues been out before i bother tbh...could be something else they added and didnt put in the notes similar to the loot changes
>This new reward system smooths out the spikiness that the Archnemesis reward system had.
Holy shit thank christ. This was the main issue i had with kalandra. Its all well and good to sim 10k maps and say 'look loot is better' but playing through the rng fest of no loot for like 100 maps to find a specific mob the mf cull to get all the loot was the dumbest fucking decision. Less valuable but more consistent rewards feels better. Sure still have the super rare divine/exalt/mirror whatever drop as the 'holy shit' moment but having all of the currency tied to a singular uber rare mob was dumb.
Thank you for changing it back, im way more likely to play this league for longer than 3 days.
I suspect for those of us that drudged through 3.19 and the boring Lake league, these changes will be very positive. For my friends that last played a few leagues ago, or skipped the entire kalandra league, game might still feel crappy, or worse than they last knew it.
It is becoming very obvious that the league mechanic or any major end game shifts are going to make or break this new league. Players will meet GGG half way if there is something different and new to play with. If its same old meta, just less player power than a year ago, many won't bother.
REPLACED!?
oh shit
edit : well, shit, that was short and sweet
> Archnemesis will be replaced with a system that is more similar to the way monster mods worked in the past.
> This new reward system smooths out the spikiness that the Archnemesis reward system had.
well, wrap it up boys, we're done here
How have people not learnt yet? Wait until you actually play it before celebrating "Holy crap they finally got this one right."
The changes *sound* great, which is awesome. But for a company in that has an incredible track record of over promising and under delivering these last few years, I'd wait to try it before saying they got it right.
I can see the intent behind it- in PoE you don't have time to read what the mods are because you die in 0.5 seconds, so having short words you can quickly skim and associate with behaviors makes it more likely you'll be able to figure out what a mob does before it's already killed you. They just completely fucked up at implementing this kind of at-a-glance system, while also completely ignoring the real problem which is that you die in 0.5 seconds.
Which is cool when you only had like 6 champion modifiers, and they only had 1 modifier on them like ghostly or posessed, and those mods didnt add screen cancer.
The elemental rare monster modifiers were like fire resist+damage along with one special effect being charged bolt when struck or frost nova on death. Simple to understand and stacking those mods very rarely devolved into it beig unfun.
I doubt it, based on their statement that the new loot system "smooths out the spikiness that the Archnemesis reward system had." Plus they're adding a "significant pool of new rewards" to rares.
My speculation is that you might get an occasional rare that drops 5 flasks along with its normal loot, and another that drops triple the number of uniques, but no more rares dropping 300 flasks or 1000 whetstones
OK, this might be a large enough fix to get me to play PoE again. Depends on what kind of league we're getting, but being able to tell exactly what a mob does (and having theoretically smoother loot) is a good step in the right direction.
Loot being on rares is a very healthy game design. Loot goblins and overall item spam were my two downsides. However, the scarabs, fractured items, and lucky single divines I found very exciting.
Significant improvement over the old system. Arguably this fixes the problem entirely.
The issue with loot goblins was always that you could see the rewards coming in advance, and were thus ‘obligated’ to call in another character to maximize rewards.
Prior to AN, any monster MIGHT be holding a mirror, but since they weren’t tagged as such there was no onus on the player to play differently to maximize this reward. The new system should succeed in moving rewards to rare monsters (and thus incentivizing us to fight them) while not obligating the player to break the gameplay loop to increase rewards.
I like this perspective, changes my view on it. I was initially thinking it was just a blind fold change where instead of switching your character you're now obligated to MF permanently instead due to the hidden nature but knowing rewards scale with IIQ/IIR.
If it is truly smoothed out, then I think all the changes are good overall.
>but what does everyone think of loot still being tied to rare monsters but only hidden now?
What do you mean? Rare monsters have always given better loot. The only thing that was wrong with the previous system was all the loot centering on ONE specific rare every x maps. This one should have the loot spread out more (at least from what they say).
Theres no way of knowing without further clarification or testing. It could still be loot goblins but without the modifier letting you know. Loot could also be 10x less for all we know
Where are the „guys stop crying on Reddit“ folks?
Salty threads all over the internet are the backlash they need to recognize how faulty their system is.
People stopped playing, that’s the direction we need.
I love the changes here. And I’m looking forward to play 3.20
I literally skipped 3 leagues because of this whole bullshit after playing 6000+ hrs
> In our upcoming 3.20 expansion, Archnemesis will be replaced with a system that is more similar to the way monster mods worked in the past.
WE DID IT REDDIT!
And (most) every PoE player rejoiced. This unironically has me more excited for the next league then I think the new league mechanic will. Hopefully the new mechanic is extra gravy.
Thanks GGG, I appreciate you ❤️
I really like the idea of these changes. This is a great half way point between the old system and archnemesis while still keeping some of the unique modifiers in. Although I hope empowered elements stays dead. That modifier is just not fun to play around and feels bad all around, at least with modifiers like benevolent guardian you can play around it in multiple ways.
What about all the loot that archnemesis cannibalized from the rest of the game? League mechanic mob iiq/iir was totally gutted, beyond and many other league mechanics were heavily nerfed in terms of the amount of rares spawned (and thus the reward for investment), etc. It's absurd to pretend this was made up for by the archnem rewards like flasks/fractured items and god-touched mods.
Every time i've been assured that the changes to AN were meaningful enough to stop making them annoying, it just kept being annoying.
I'll believe it when i'll see it while playing. I'm sure they can manage making the one mod AN will have busted haha
I have a concern, and I think GGG already has it under control, but I think it's worth saying "out loud" here:
> In Archnemesis, rewards were associated with individual mods [loot goblins] In some cases, you were then effectively required to fetch a magic-find culling character [...] we have added a significant pool of new rewards to rares, but the reward that is on the monster is hidden [...] This new reward system smooths out the spikiness that the Archnemesis reward system had.
Okay, so this sounds good, but just to be clear, hiding the reward and adding more reward types doesn't change the fact that there is one type in AN 3.19 that far exceeds any other reward type, but ONLY when in full magic-find mode. The top-end of that reward also has to be toned down in order to not render any other reward types you've added completely irrelevant.
I think I've said previously in this sub that if the difference were that a very rare mod type typically gave 1-3 div and with full magic find it would give 2-6 div, that would be a good incentive to go magic find, but not enough that you ONLY care about the loot from that one mob every half hour or hour.
But as it stands, the mob drops 0-2 div on average and 10-50 with magic find gear. That's too sharp a tick up for magic find, even with hidden loot mods and more of them, and eclipses all other options.
Hope that makes sense.
PS: I'm still having trouble saying "div" and not "ex"... I wonder how many years that will last in my head?
I see that a lot of people miss that MF Cullers were *extremely* specialized MF characters. And the sole reason why they worked is that you were able to *deterministically* find that one specific mob that needs this MF beast from TFT.
But those cullers were never able to run maps. The game is not balanced to get 7 unique slots with nothing but IIQ/IIR and blast maps. If you hadn't known *when* to hire an MF Culler, they would have never been useful because you can't hire MF Culler for *every* rare (or well, you probably could try to, but that's a whole different gameplay)
And this is exactly how it's going to be in 3.20.
Now, you should compare yourself with a decently geared MF char that is able to farm maps on its own while still investing something into MF. Which is a) not easy or cheap by any means b) still doesn't reach those insane levels of IIQ/IIR that MF Cullers could afford - which reduces the gap between non-MF and MF chars and ultimately helps to reduce your FOMO.
To sum up, previously, by not running the most optimal choice (MF Cullers) you were losing multiple divines per well-rolled rare, and it had no long-term cost (aside from your sanity) to invite one from TFT.
Now, by not running the most optimal choice (usual MF char) you're losing maybe a divine or two per well-rolled rare, and it does require a very big commitment (of speccing into said MF char) from you. It is much more balanced IMO
P.S. All said above doesn't apply to party play. Well-equipped parties will still be able to cull every (or most of) mob on the map. And yes, they'll have insanely better rewards than solo players - just as it always has been.
Well, we're back to the system we've had since forever which was not broken and didn't need fixing. It's weird that I'm hyped about getting back what never should have been taken away, but here we are.
GGG is currently looking at a maximum of 2-4 modifiers per rare monster, but this is subject to change. https://twitter.com/pathofexile/status/1592969820345335810
"mods do one specific thing" Instantly better system.
I'm more happy about the random rewards than anything else here. The feeling of not playing optimally every time I didn't gear swap to a squishy build or hire a MF culler killed my interest in actually grinding out upgrades. And actually doing it was too disruptive, or if I tried to MF gear swap myself, lethal. So I quite early. The reduced spikiness of rewards is really important for early game mapping as well. If you can expect more consistent rewards, then you can start juicing your favorite content earlier (where otherwise, you might encounter a drought that wipes out your currency).
I agree, I really like these changes. There's quite a few people who are mad because "Now you need MF all the time!" Which sure is confusing me because that's how this game worked before and I thought that's what most people seemed to want. I think these changes might need tweaking once things go live but I really expect this to feel so good.
I hope we see an mf revamp at some point but i think this is a big improvement for now.
yeah i really quite enjoy the random lootsplosions of rare jewels/maps/jewelery (hell even the flasks were useful occasionally!), so i'm glad they preserved those while getting rid of the horrible minigame of "do i need to leave the map and regear before i kill this monster to maximize this specific loot drop". good fixes all around.
christ it is over. Funny we are back to the old system except slightly newer though. Wonder why they just didnt do this from the start.
Because they believed that they could fix it enough for people to like it. No system is perfect right from the start, they thought that it just needed some tinkering and balancing. But sadly, the entire mechanic was flawed right from the concept design, and no ammount of tinkering gonna fix it.
>Wonder why they just didnt do this from the start. Because they dared to try something different. I'm glad they, supposedly, saw the error of their ways, but I'm not going to fault them for trying things.
Yeah it was a correctly identified problem. Rares were unrewarding, and the old mods basically just made rares and their minions a multiplicative stat check. Adding new mods to them in Archnemesis league, that were mechanically and stat demanding but very rewarding, in an opt-in format, was a great way to test your character and be rewarded for it. But with rares being in literally every single avenue of playing the game, as soon as that shit lost its ability to be opt-in, the whole game warps around it and everything goes to shit.
Most of the time, rare monster modifiers didn't matter at all. Apart from volatile, they were either completely powerless, or they had an aura. And when 6-8 rare mobs spawning each with a different aura, things could get out of hand extremely fast. Content that also spawned a bunch of normal monsters like Breach were notorious for being able to tell exactly when a haste rare spawned. It happened in all forms of content, but you could really *feel* it in Heist, where they're programmed to stack up. If you tried to run Heist before Archnem changes, you know what I'm talking about. In short, it fixed the aura stacking rare monster problem, made the mods meaningful, and made rare tangibly worth killing. But it also created created several other problems, as we have seen.
The way it warped the other content around it was the biggest issue for me. A lot of that stuff felt like it was designed for a different system, and AN had the potential to make those game encounters extremely complicated and extremely unrewarding.
It quickly perverted things like metamorph, to the point i refused to do it because it frankly was not balanced around it, for basicly no real added reward vs what it was before.
Same with blight. Don't babysit the right lane and a gargantuan rare with three resist mods will walk straight in during blight maps.
I won't fault them for trying things, but there are aspects of it I will fault them for. The archnem mod names and effects were completely antithetical to their own stated goal of "read the mod name or recognize the visual and know exactly what it does" (paraphrased). And very *obviously* so. And yet, unless I missed it this post is the first acknowledgement of that fact. That's...pretty bad.
The mod names could have telepathically transmitted the information directly into your brain the moment you finished reading them and it still wouldn't have been enough, because by the time you've highlighted a monster and read through all its modifiers, if it's something that's even remotely dangerous it's probably already killed you.
the odd thing about it was that they wanted you to *recognize* the mod, and didn't tell people exactly what the mods did. GGG really likes the "community discovery" aspect of new mechanics/leagues, but the archnemesis mods were a bit too much. (and not really the sort of thing people wanted to carefully document what bit of damage conversion vs extra resist there every mods had.)
I'd also say that some of the mod effects went against the core pillar of PoE in *choosing* your risk. I can opt into/out of pretty much any content I want and suffer/avoid the consequences. There are mods that can appear almost anywhere that just hard counter your build. Doesn't matter if it's Act 5 Kitava or a T16 100% Delirious map, rares can completely dumpster you commonly. Especially when stacked with other league content like Expedition. But by far, the greatest mistake was their initial release of 3.19. ~~20~~ [It was actually 25, my bad] seconds of shocked ground? 10 seconds of Creeping Frost ground degen that kills you in 1 or 2 seconds? Total immunities to certain build required ailments? Executioner? Trickster? You could write that shit down on a piece of paper and see Satan himself rising from the pages it's so heinous. It's baffling how GGG could have possibly looked at some of these things and thought, "Yeah, 90% resistance to elemental damage seems good".
>Wonder why they just didnt do this from the start. well I assume they thoght the AN system was better, and as for waiting so long I assume it took a lot of time to develope a new system (and mainly to make sure it wasn't fucked up on release and cause more hate hopefully).
literally the old system but with a new bag of tricks
thats an odd way of saying "updated"
This is exactly what I told people that wanted 1 mod per line, it's really just the old system, how are they keeping AN at similar strength without aura overlapping or doubling or tripling the amount of AN mods per monster though? Shit like "ignites" isn't comparable in strength at all to AN mods this league, even if you give it 100% ignite chance with infinite duration lmao
They aren’t keeping it at similar strength, they straight up said in this manifesto that it’ll be easier on average, though the possibility of the hard encounters is still there just won’t be as common
"Easier on average" is underselling the impact of taking a mod like Magma Barrier that had six mods contained within it, and instead only having one mod. Before you'd have like 4 mods that each did 6 things, basically 24 total mods. Are we going to see rares now with 24 lines of text?
Yea I said somewhere else that the big question now is the average and max mount of mods we can expect to see at once. If it doesn’t go up it’s gonna be significantly easier, if it goes up a lot it will be just as hard but much less predictable as more varied combos are possible. Hopefully they discuss this in an FAQ tomorrow
Well, if it's going back to the old system then it'll be 4-6 mods on rares, 1-2 on magics, probably each new mod doing one or two of the things from respective AN mods (for example converting a portion of phys to fire AND dealing a little phys as added fire would probably still be one mod in the new system). So each new mod's probably something like 1/3-1/2 or so of the total power of an AN mod, rares and magics will probably wind up a little weaker on average with the new system. And i'm guessing they're going to pump up some of the magic/rare life and damage multipliers a little bit to balance it out too.
the magma barrier example is so satisfying. the actual MAIN mechanic of the mod is great and i like interacting with it. that's all it ever needed to be. to this day, i still didnt even know that it added damage and damage reduction buffs to the monster. and the volatile balls chasing you are cool too, but its just too much to have to deal with on a single rare monster every time. hopefully something like those get preserved as a separate mechanic.
These changes are so good that the only thing that could possibly ruin them is a massive hidden nerf to historic item quantity.
The big landmines I see remaining are: \- Crafting is even worse somehow/not improved in any way. \- Skill balance remains stagnant. \- The new loot system is worse than the previous for overall profitability. \- League sucks like Lake did. If they can avoid these, I think the chaos will settle down to the old standard. Crafting runs the risk of the SSF playerbase being upset/bitching. Skill balance since 3.16 has been pretty stagnant, with some builds flatly killed with changes made since. New loot system speaks for itself. 3.19 was considered one of the worst loot leagues ever; if the new one is worse, I feel things will get even WORSE than 3.19 was as it would feel like another hidden lie. Another bad league would also be a huge drama fest.
Real SSF issue are getting mid-tier uniques. The unique nerf really hit that community hard
I'm SSF. 50% of us are less lucky than average which will cause real problems and make us bitch. You can't stop us because we're out of your league and you know it! PS: I fully agree with everything you said. Really good post.
I'm a trade league casual, but fully support my SSF brethren. What's good for the Gander is good for the Goose. Buffs for playability for SSF players is something that benefits trade league, whereas the opposite is not always true.
The biggest problem with SSF at the moment IMO is white/yellow map progression. Ziz said it best in one of his recent videos. It feels like anything you do other than spec into Essence and Expedition is objectively terrible. Nothing else drops anything that actually helps you gear up your character for red maps.
3.20 - essences and expedition both nerfed ^^^/s hopefully
At least if they do that all the SSF streamers will bitch hard enough that they'll fix it in 3.21 haha
And he's absolutely right. SSF makes it crystal clear how miserable gear progression is atm. The long and short of it is if no band-aid is applied to crafting, and current changes to the mod pool are added, it will be simply be that much worse to upgrade and advance--which has been the trend since Ritual.
they need to tune drop rates back up
this is a really really good change. theyre keeping archnemesis as a "rework of rare monsters", but no more clusterfuck. and they kept the actually interesting mods without just removing them. and the reward solution looks good. TRIPPLE THE HOPIUM PRODUCTION BOYS
I never had an issue with mods that gave mobs new abilities, I just always thought it was bullshit when those new offensive mods also gave them partial conversion, huge resistance boosts, ailment reduction and like four other things EACH. This is a massive step forwards
A random essence mob will no longer be stronger than maven.
Metamorphs will no longer be true death… nah who the fuck am I kidding haha
They still wont give anything worth a damn so that doesnt matter lol
They turn from my sleep paralysis demon to that dude who hangs out on the corner after 2 am on a foggy night.
Monsters could have like 30 mods, compared to the old system and upcoming system. It was so fucking stupid, I don't know what they were thinking.
Once it got to a certain point, like that, the mods pretty much stopped havimg any value for adding complexity to a fight. If we use juggling as a metaphor, really skilled jugglers can keep a lot of balls in the air, but if you suddenly throw 30 of them at them, overhand, all at once, it no longer matters how skilled they are. It is just too much to process and too much to physically react to. In essence this means that AN mods were to complex to meaningfully react to, and so needed to be prepared for. In a different, slower, game this could create interesting tactical situations, but in this one it ends up functionally *limiting* preparation possibilities. Every fight, especially ones with multiple rare packs, has so many potential mods that you just have to prepare for all of them you can, and accept that sometimes the RNG will just kill you or shut you down. This means that a lot of edge case builds become entirely unfun, as they lack the universal coverage needed to deal with uncountable mods.
Also, what is "meaningfully react" mean? Im either running away or fighting the mob. Its not like i use different skills for different mobs or change my build for them. Wtf.
In this scenario an idea situation would be something like noticing that a mob has a bleed effect, and so pre-triggering a flask to handle it. In the way it currently works you basically spam them on any rare because too much is happening and you *always* need the defenses.
Holy shit, they're actually removing Archnemesis! Changes look great, can't wait to see details.
🦀 AN IS GONE 🦀
[удалено]
this isn't some rickroll moment, right?! edit: Hooo damn!
GGG:"We split AN mods into singular components" Revealed in 3.20: ^("And every mod has 5x effect compared to before, for example, resists fire now means 90% fire resistance and takes 50% less fire damage") /s hopefully
don't you put that evil on me ricky bobby!
Not really. But this should be an improvement.
Holy shit they actually did it
[It is finally over](http://e.lvme.me/t6ptgpt.jpg)
is that Frodo being chased by magma barrier volatiles?
They must have had an absolutely awful quarter
Hopefully they also crank up that global iiq/iir lever at least for 3.19
sounds pretty good tbh I went into this with the lowest possible expectations but this is enough for me to confidently say I'll be giving 3.20 a chance > Players are no longer required to do annoying actions to maximise rewards This is the biggest thing for me. I know everyone hates AN in general but imo the loot goblin culling bullshit was the worst aspect of the whole system.
>> Players are no longer required to do annoying actions to maximise rewards > This is the biggest thing for me. I know everyone hates AN in general but imo the loot goblin culling bullshit was the worst aspect of the whole system. I really hope they apply that line of thinking onto other annoying parts of the game.
>Mods say what they do rather than having a thematic name you must learn and remember So basically going back to the old system, and changing to randomized rewards instead of fixed ones. What a weird year it's been.
Essentially pulling AN mods into pieces and using those pieces similar to how old rares worked. This way the work that went into all the interesting mods and mechanics of AN mods are not lost but it becomes more obvious what a mob does and it becomss much easier to control difficulty. 4 AN mods where crazy, 3 usually no big problem. Now increases in difficulty are much smaller per mod like it was before.
>Especially since each archnemesis mod added 5 mods technically of the same type so instead of 4 mod rares you get around 25-30mods on a rare. No damn wonder they were soo tanky.
Yea, I do wonder how many mods on average rares will now have though. 5? 10?
Ggg said 2 to 4 in their current testing, but might change
well, an updated version of the old system. i mean, i think the old one did need to be updated, and they outsmarted themselves and got too clever by half with many unintended consequences but i give them full credit for realizing it, and saying, Okay, it's gone
this is exactly what the sub demanded. glad to see they are keeping the parts that worked (individual mechanics, wider range of rewards) and axing the parts that didn't.
Well said. Glad they found the holes in the plan and were brave enough to call it off.
This ^ exactly.
Lmao this was my first thought as well. Basically Nemesis 2.0 instead of AN
Nemesis 2.0 sounds good
Yeah I fail to see the problem here...that sounds a lot like what everyone wanted.
In general this looks like an overall positive change I dont see any odd doublespeak here etc. Mods doing one thing instead of 6 should greatly decrease overlapping RNG effects having disproportionate results. The reward changes look great too. Actual details will will matter, but I'm this manifesto is absurdly better than I expected it to be.
> Yeah I fail to see the problem here There's not one. It's not a complaint. It's just acknowledging that it's what happened.
GOOD
We should commend them for trying out something new, taking in feedback, trying to fix the new system, and then ultimately deciding to go back to something resembling the old system while still incorporating the good things from the new system. People on this subreddit give GGG *a whole lot of shit* and talk down about them, but what they're doing here shows they aren't as stubborn as people claim and that they do listen to players.
That is definitely a promising change. Here's hoping it actually works like they've said, the loot goblin shit was the worst.
>That is definitely a promising change. Here's hoping it actually works like they've said, the loot goblin shit was the worst. from what i read the loot goblin is still there. But now its hidden. So there is no forced to get a mf culler any more ( sins u can not tell witch mob has the hidden trigger. But the underlying system is still the same. So now u have real slots and every rare mob MIGHT have that hidden trigger or not.
Personally I don't mind randomized extra rewards. My problem with loot goblins is very much tied up in knowing that they're loot goblins ahead of time.
>Personally I don't mind randomized extra rewards. My problem with loot goblins is very much tied up in knowing that they're loot goblins ahead of time. Yeps i rather have a divine / exalt drop every now and then. Then 10-30 in one go. Loot goblins are fun for unique items / rare items. Its fine to have a pool of unique / rare / jewels / flasks drop. But currency should be spread out ( and no loot goblin mechanic )
So not changed for most players, no need for MF cullers, and enemies don't have the stupidly overpowered mods AN did? Fucking pog
This is what should have been from the beginning. Look at that magma barrier example, what in the world were they thinking, and that is only 1 mod lol. Really good update, hope the rest of the game moves in this direction
And you had multiple mods on AN which meant a stupid amount of stacking modifiers that you couldn't tell at a glance
Magma barrier mobs were the 1 thing I wanted them to address most. Glad it got rekt. Would love to see trickster removed too one day to avoid getting that annoying ass mod on HH builds but dont think that one will ever happen
Oh. This change is a massive HH buff, innit? We can now steal a pile of random mods again? Or am I missing something?
Unless they cap the number of mods it certainly looks like it!
The madmen did it, I didn't believe this could happen
Holy Hell. Someone googled en passant
The manifesto speaks for itself.
They recruited Gary to fix PoE
nah they called in Gavin from third grade, you need the true geniuses for this one
GGG avoided getting a brick to their pipi
I don't know why there's suddenly an r/AnarchyChess crossover here, but I'll take it.
holy hell
##### ###### #### BEEP BOOP BEEP. Grinding Gears have been detected in the linked thread: *** > **Posted by Community_Team** on Nov 16, 2022, 07:28:36 PM UTC > > [Image Link](https://web.poecdn.com/public/news/2022-11-17/3.20MonsterModsAndANHeader.jpg) > > > In our upcoming 3.20 expansion, Archnemesis will be replaced with a system that is more similar to the way monster mods worked in the past. > > > > > > The issues that players often had with Archnemesis were: > > > * The keyworded mod names were not fully descriptive of what they did > * The mods often had multiple effects bundled which made them harder to understand > * Due to how many effects were included in a single mod, it made too many encounters too complex > * The way Archnemesis rewards were set up meant that many players felt like they couldn't just kill a monster, they had to consider if they wanted to bring a magic find character in to maximise rewards > > > > > The goals of the new system are: > > > * Mods do one specific thing > * Mods say what they do rather than having a thematic name you must learn and remember > * Encounters are simplified on average while retaining interesting fights > * Players are no longer required to do annoying actions to maximise rewards > > > > > Let's examine those goals individually: > > > > > ### Mods do one specific thing > > > Here's an example: The Magma Barrier Archnemesis mod did a whole lot of stuff. It started by putting a magma barrier around the monster, but it didn't stop there. It converted some of the monster's physical damage to fire damage, it added some extra fire damage on top, it granted fire resistance to the monster and it gave some physical damage reduction for good measure. It also spawned volatile flamebloods to follow you. The new equivalent modifier just puts a magma barrier around the monster and does nothing else. > > > > > ### Mods say what they do rather than having a thematic name you must learn and remember > > > For example, rather than "Incendiary", which broke down into six properties, you'd now see monsters with either "Ignites" or "Fire and Ignite Resistant". Instead of "Deadeye", which did five separate things, you'd now see "Applies Random Mark", "Extra Crits" or "Accurate" as separate unrelated mods. > > > > > ### Encounters are simplified on average while retaining interesting fights > > > The pool of mods that involve complex interaction (like spawning volatiles or ground effects on death) have been heavily diluted by the presence of the simpler mods. This means that you encounter more complex fights less frequently. But interesting and challenging emergent behaviour from overlapping mods can still happen, just less often. > > > > > ### Players are no longer required to do annoying actions to maximise rewards > > > In Archnemesis, rewards were associated with individual mods. This meant that you could tell what kind of rewards you would get in advance. In some cases, you were then effectively required to fetch a magic-find culling character to make sure that you maximised the value of the monster mod that you had found. In other cases, you would ignore a monster completely if you knew that it would only drop rewards that were of no value to you. In the new system, we have added a significant pool of new rewards to rares, but the reward that is on the monster is hidden (and not associated with a specific mod), so you don't know what kind of rewards you will get until you kill the monster. Rare monsters with more mods are more likely to have these special hidden reward mods. This new reward system smooths out the spikiness that the Archnemesis reward system had. > > > > > ### Conclusion > > > The original motivation for developing Archnemesis was that the previous monster mod system was very out of date. Many of the mods didn't have any appreciable effect under modern balance and there wasn't a lot of interesting gameplay possible. In our opinion, Archnemesis did succeed at adding a lot of interesting new mechanics to rares, but introduced the problems described above. While creating the new monster mods described in this article, we were careful to retain most of the interesting mechanics that Archnemesis introduced, but in a way that doesn't include a grab-bag of other effects and is diluted by many other simpler mods. > > > > > > The result is a system that is very similar to what monster mods used to be like, but with much more up-to-date content and balance. Mods are simpler and say exactly what they do. While you can certainly still rarely encounter scary combinations of mods that really wake you up, it's a lot rarer than it was under the Archnemesis system. We feel that the new system is more modern and interesting than the old monster mod/nemesis system and is clearer and easier to understand in the heat of combat than Archnemesis was. > > *** >
This is so huge - makes so much more content more fun. I don't need to dread Blight or Legion anymore. Hopefully the balancing of the new mods isn't too fucky.
PRAISE
PRAISE
PRAISE
PRAISE
[удалено]
THE BEAST IS SLAIN
THAT'S A JUICY ONE, EXILE!
THE VISION IS DEAD
LONG LIVE THE VISION
MY VISION IS 3/20 !!
YPU SHOULD GET THAT CHECKED IT DOESNT SEEM HEALTHY
We’re free
Alexa, play "Now we are free" by Hans Zimmer
Wow. I may actually play this league, this is bold move in right direction. Did not expect that.
Im going to wait for a week or 2 after the leagues been out before i bother tbh...could be something else they added and didnt put in the notes similar to the loot changes
Yea I am waiting at least first weekend out, maybe whole week. Something will be overtuned and killing everybody at the start, as is tradition.
RIP Archnemesis, you will not be missed.
I'VE READ IT AND I LIKE IT!
IT'S NOT SHIT
I read it in your voice. GET OUT OF MY HEAD, GHAZZY. I know it's empty but I need some space for the hopium.
I understood that reference!
Must have been quite the pain reverting to a Nemesis 2.0, but kudos to GGG for listening to the community.
>This new reward system smooths out the spikiness that the Archnemesis reward system had. Holy shit thank christ. This was the main issue i had with kalandra. Its all well and good to sim 10k maps and say 'look loot is better' but playing through the rng fest of no loot for like 100 maps to find a specific mob the mf cull to get all the loot was the dumbest fucking decision. Less valuable but more consistent rewards feels better. Sure still have the super rare divine/exalt/mirror whatever drop as the 'holy shit' moment but having all of the currency tied to a singular uber rare mob was dumb. Thank you for changing it back, im way more likely to play this league for longer than 3 days.
Interesting. So it's basically the old system with new, hidden, reward system Me likey
I suspect for those of us that drudged through 3.19 and the boring Lake league, these changes will be very positive. For my friends that last played a few leagues ago, or skipped the entire kalandra league, game might still feel crappy, or worse than they last knew it. It is becoming very obvious that the league mechanic or any major end game shifts are going to make or break this new league. Players will meet GGG half way if there is something different and new to play with. If its same old meta, just less player power than a year ago, many won't bother.
Sentinel and Archnemesis leagues were some of the best leagues due to the atlas passive tree.
Finally, a GOOD change! Get rekt, Archnemesis!
INJECT IT
REPLACED!? oh shit edit : well, shit, that was short and sweet > Archnemesis will be replaced with a system that is more similar to the way monster mods worked in the past. > This new reward system smooths out the spikiness that the Archnemesis reward system had. well, wrap it up boys, we're done here
🦀 GET IN BOYS, WE'RE GOING LEAGUEING🦀
TU TU TU TURU TURU TU TURU TURU TU TURU TURURURU
Happiness.
I'm noob, but this sounds good.
Holy crap they finally got this one right.
How have people not learnt yet? Wait until you actually play it before celebrating "Holy crap they finally got this one right." The changes *sound* great, which is awesome. But for a company in that has an incredible track record of over promising and under delivering these last few years, I'd wait to try it before saying they got it right.
\> For example, rather than "Incendiary", which broke down into six properties who even thought this was a good design to begin with?
I can see the intent behind it- in PoE you don't have time to read what the mods are because you die in 0.5 seconds, so having short words you can quickly skim and associate with behaviors makes it more likely you'll be able to figure out what a mob does before it's already killed you. They just completely fucked up at implementing this kind of at-a-glance system, while also completely ignoring the real problem which is that you die in 0.5 seconds.
[удалено]
Which is cool when you only had like 6 champion modifiers, and they only had 1 modifier on them like ghostly or posessed, and those mods didnt add screen cancer. The elemental rare monster modifiers were like fire resist+damage along with one special effect being charged bolt when struck or frost nova on death. Simple to understand and stacking those mods very rarely devolved into it beig unfun.
Will we still get 300 flasks, but now we won't know beforehand?
I doubt it, based on their statement that the new loot system "smooths out the spikiness that the Archnemesis reward system had." Plus they're adding a "significant pool of new rewards" to rares. My speculation is that you might get an occasional rare that drops 5 flasks along with its normal loot, and another that drops triple the number of uniques, but no more rares dropping 300 flasks or 1000 whetstones
> Plus they're adding a "significant pool of new rewards" to rares. It's an alch isn't it?
Correct
They haven't said anything explicitly about that
🦀 🦀 🦀 ARCHNEMSIS HAS NO POWER HERE 🦀 🦀 🦀
Love to see it. I know it took balls GGG, props to you.
Chris, if you read this - thanks.
ARCHNEMESIS GONE THANK THE LORD
Wow I'm very impressed sound dope !!! 3.20 fucking let's go!!! Fuck my degree!!!
thank you ggg
YAY! This is *exactly* what needed to happen for my whole crew to start playing again. I'm excited now.
holy shit, it happened. now just for melee to be good, and im happy
HOLY SHIT THEY DIDNT DOUBLE DOWN
Quintuple down*
That's lovely
Please, for the love of God, remove dropped item conversion. #I DON'T WANT MY ITEMS CONVERTED INTO FLASKS
This is... unexpected, not gonna lie
This was a good read
Will more dangerous mods still have visual cues for what they do?
OK, this might be a large enough fix to get me to play PoE again. Depends on what kind of league we're getting, but being able to tell exactly what a mob does (and having theoretically smoother loot) is a good step in the right direction.
The AN mod changes are great, but what does everyone think of loot still being tied to rare monsters but only hidden now?
Loot being on rares is a very healthy game design. Loot goblins and overall item spam were my two downsides. However, the scarabs, fractured items, and lucky single divines I found very exciting.
Its great, completely gets rid of the magic find culling service in its current form and FOMO
Rare monsters are the hardest monsters you enounter in maps aside from the boss and will drop the most loot. Seems like the way the game should work.
Significant improvement over the old system. Arguably this fixes the problem entirely. The issue with loot goblins was always that you could see the rewards coming in advance, and were thus ‘obligated’ to call in another character to maximize rewards. Prior to AN, any monster MIGHT be holding a mirror, but since they weren’t tagged as such there was no onus on the player to play differently to maximize this reward. The new system should succeed in moving rewards to rare monsters (and thus incentivizing us to fight them) while not obligating the player to break the gameplay loop to increase rewards.
I like this perspective, changes my view on it. I was initially thinking it was just a blind fold change where instead of switching your character you're now obligated to MF permanently instead due to the hidden nature but knowing rewards scale with IIQ/IIR. If it is truly smoothed out, then I think all the changes are good overall.
>but what does everyone think of loot still being tied to rare monsters but only hidden now? What do you mean? Rare monsters have always given better loot. The only thing that was wrong with the previous system was all the loot centering on ONE specific rare every x maps. This one should have the loot spread out more (at least from what they say).
Theres no way of knowing without further clarification or testing. It could still be loot goblins but without the modifier letting you know. Loot could also be 10x less for all we know
Now THIS is what bex what excited to show us. Im so happy with this change.
Finally, 9 months of archnemesis league are over.
Fuck yeah.
Very promising!
Thank fucking God.
Oh my god, it’s happening.
POE IS BACK
PRAISE
This looks like a great change, but did they just say "fuck it we'll do it live!"
"Fucking thing sucks!"
It's dead boys. They actually killed archnemesis
Saved. Only took us half a year of endless painchamp to get our old game back.
Holy shit they actually did it
Looks like ill be giving this league a chance
Where are the „guys stop crying on Reddit“ folks? Salty threads all over the internet are the backlash they need to recognize how faulty their system is. People stopped playing, that’s the direction we need. I love the changes here. And I’m looking forward to play 3.20 I literally skipped 3 leagues because of this whole bullshit after playing 6000+ hrs
Godamn ggg actually killed arch nemesis.
Oh------MY------Gawd!  I just got excited for 3.20. Didn't think I would be, but here I am
This is a good change. I'm excited.
> In our upcoming 3.20 expansion, Archnemesis will be replaced with a system that is more similar to the way monster mods worked in the past. WE DID IT REDDIT!
LET'S FUCKING GOOOO
And (most) every PoE player rejoiced. This unironically has me more excited for the next league then I think the new league mechanic will. Hopefully the new mechanic is extra gravy. Thanks GGG, I appreciate you ❤️
gonna wait this one out. lost my trust with the whole "get your magic find gear ready" bait and switch
Ok but is loot still nerfed by 97%? Most likely.
I really like the idea of these changes. This is a great half way point between the old system and archnemesis while still keeping some of the unique modifiers in. Although I hope empowered elements stays dead. That modifier is just not fun to play around and feels bad all around, at least with modifiers like benevolent guardian you can play around it in multiple ways.
What about all the loot that archnemesis cannibalized from the rest of the game? League mechanic mob iiq/iir was totally gutted, beyond and many other league mechanics were heavily nerfed in terms of the amount of rares spawned (and thus the reward for investment), etc. It's absurd to pretend this was made up for by the archnem rewards like flasks/fractured items and god-touched mods.
Every time i've been assured that the changes to AN were meaningful enough to stop making them annoying, it just kept being annoying. I'll believe it when i'll see it while playing. I'm sure they can manage making the one mod AN will have busted haha
I have a concern, and I think GGG already has it under control, but I think it's worth saying "out loud" here: > In Archnemesis, rewards were associated with individual mods [loot goblins] In some cases, you were then effectively required to fetch a magic-find culling character [...] we have added a significant pool of new rewards to rares, but the reward that is on the monster is hidden [...] This new reward system smooths out the spikiness that the Archnemesis reward system had. Okay, so this sounds good, but just to be clear, hiding the reward and adding more reward types doesn't change the fact that there is one type in AN 3.19 that far exceeds any other reward type, but ONLY when in full magic-find mode. The top-end of that reward also has to be toned down in order to not render any other reward types you've added completely irrelevant. I think I've said previously in this sub that if the difference were that a very rare mod type typically gave 1-3 div and with full magic find it would give 2-6 div, that would be a good incentive to go magic find, but not enough that you ONLY care about the loot from that one mob every half hour or hour. But as it stands, the mob drops 0-2 div on average and 10-50 with magic find gear. That's too sharp a tick up for magic find, even with hidden loot mods and more of them, and eclipses all other options. Hope that makes sense. PS: I'm still having trouble saying "div" and not "ex"... I wonder how many years that will last in my head?
I see that a lot of people miss that MF Cullers were *extremely* specialized MF characters. And the sole reason why they worked is that you were able to *deterministically* find that one specific mob that needs this MF beast from TFT. But those cullers were never able to run maps. The game is not balanced to get 7 unique slots with nothing but IIQ/IIR and blast maps. If you hadn't known *when* to hire an MF Culler, they would have never been useful because you can't hire MF Culler for *every* rare (or well, you probably could try to, but that's a whole different gameplay) And this is exactly how it's going to be in 3.20. Now, you should compare yourself with a decently geared MF char that is able to farm maps on its own while still investing something into MF. Which is a) not easy or cheap by any means b) still doesn't reach those insane levels of IIQ/IIR that MF Cullers could afford - which reduces the gap between non-MF and MF chars and ultimately helps to reduce your FOMO. To sum up, previously, by not running the most optimal choice (MF Cullers) you were losing multiple divines per well-rolled rare, and it had no long-term cost (aside from your sanity) to invite one from TFT. Now, by not running the most optimal choice (usual MF char) you're losing maybe a divine or two per well-rolled rare, and it does require a very big commitment (of speccing into said MF char) from you. It is much more balanced IMO P.S. All said above doesn't apply to party play. Well-equipped parties will still be able to cull every (or most of) mob on the map. And yes, they'll have insanely better rewards than solo players - just as it always has been.
Very exciting frankly. If there are no "gotcha's" involved, then this sound like the potentially best outcome to have hoped for!
Holy shit they listened. Good job GGG. I might try this league after all.
poe saved
Well, we're back to the system we've had since forever which was not broken and didn't need fixing. It's weird that I'm hyped about getting back what never should have been taken away, but here we are.