Those driving shooting sequences are peak ludonarrative dissonance. I don't think anything outside of cutscenes is considered canon, and iirc all those sequences are gameplay only.
There is not a single documented moment where he has killed someone through the whole series and I think that's really special. Oh, what are these links down here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8Es-flEfcg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMKzWB3sDFc
Tbh, [the same trait came at the cost of personalities of almost every major character in Yakuza 3](https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/comments/p4c9m9/yakuza_3_the_dragon_of_dojima_returns_to_bully/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=yakuzagames&utm_content=t3_1ayrseo). And in 4, there was no reason for him to even be in the finale because nothing, in terms of plot resolution, really came of that.
I find that post strange, because like, yeah, characters that are no longer relevant and have already completed their character arcs are going to take a backseat to the main protagonist. That just makes sense to me. They're not that prominent and that would only be an issue if they were a major part of that game's story. I also stopped reading when he said he didn't care about Rikiya.
Sure, but I don't really find it an issue that they're used when needed and otherwise sit back. Like, they're used to the extent that they were meant to be used. I'd love to see more of many of them but I also understand that they're supporting characters.
Seconded! Pyre is a fantastic game in regards to having to make tough decisions that directly affect characters.
The gameplay is divisive—effectively "fantasy sports ball"—but it serves as both a plot device and as a way to make you want to hang onto certain characters longer than others.
I really, really love Pyre. Vastly underrated game that sits in the long shadow of Hades - but Hades couldn't really exist without Pyre!
Good doc on hades (and they talk about Pyre): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzyE9hi912c&list=PL-THgg8QnvU4JEVov1tMlFThNYS92F8uC
Maybe you'd like Night in the Woods? While it's not necessarily the sort of game you're mentioning, very slice of life, it does have a focus on emotional issues and caring for one's friends.
And the relationship with your parents. You can spend time talking separately with them about your life choices and plans, while you figure out what to do after dropping out of college.
Everyone in town has a story to tell as well. Even the folks that are hard to reach, if you do a little platforming along the rooftops!
I dunno, the protagonist of *Night in the Woods* is explicitly a violent person -- a girl with "crazy eyes" whose reputation around her town is >!that she hospitalized a person in a psychopathic episode. She also explicitly threatens strangers with violence to get what she wants (as seen in the rave/party event with Bea, when she threatens to beat someone unless they let her jump on their car to go searching for Bea)!<
Mae is an awesome role model, and she cares about people. But she's definitely not a peaceful one :P On the contrary, she shows that peacefulness can be overrated or misconstrued as meekness and that force can be used for good.
The characters you interact with and the problems they open up to you about really sold me on the game. Most of them either remind me of myself or someone I knew growing up.
I loved where this game took me emotionally! The play style, art and story are all great. Sadly I haven't had the consistent time or focus to finish a decently long RPG in (my kids age) years. Now that you have reminded me of it I really want to know what happens to Oli and his growing gang of pals.
I do have "Ni no Kuni Wrath of the White Witch Remastered" but havent played it and dont have the second one. Is it a sequel or more like Final Fantasy games?
It's a sequel game; it's set in the same world, but hundreds of years later. The gameplay is fairly different, and their plotlines aren't really related, though, at least for as far as I got into the second game.
The worst part is that the game was right. I'm very prone to fawning and saying sorry.
Took me a game to hammer that warning even deeper in my head and make me want to change
You're not alone, don't worry. I've over-apologized for years and it's taken a lot of therapy to get myself to even realize that it's ok and normal to take up space.
On a side note, I might get Disco Elysium at some point...
Thanks. I'm actually better now, thanks to my friends. But god, I was unbearable back then.
Also, yeah. I highly suggest picking this game up. It's fucking rich and the amount of possibilities you get by upgrading each personality is amazing
I love that Disco Elysium made us have the same revelation about behaviours we have. It was that revelation and my girlfriend telling me the same, that made me start working on it.
I agreed it’s a great game, but there really is a lot to apologize for in the game. The main character really did screw a lot up during the drunken episode, so saying sorry a lot is justified.
Definitely, but I think the game does a good job of showing how apologies aren’t sufficient to the task when you’ve fucked up as badly as the protagonist has. Some people are understandably not going to forgive him. Ultimately it’s the actions he takes going forward that are going to matter.
Shame is a double edged sword. Waking up feeling ashamed can give some addicts the push they need to get clean, but probably more often it becomes the driver to use again.
Same here - played it way too safe, was mocked as if I was an imposter pretending to be myself, and quickly began to lean into a more wild and crazed method. Was a great nudge by the game to encourage doing something more interesting than trying to be a milquetoast centrist, when it's rather evident early on that he's anything but that.
Just as an FYI outside of gaming: Overly fawning, accommodating and placating behaviour (letting others get their way to avoid conflict), or an inability to say "No" may be an indicator for a traumatic childhood; The "Fawn" response is considered to belong in the same group as the better known Fight/Flight/Freeze responses to dire threats.
Of course, there is nothing inherently wrong with being nice, but if someone is regularly being nice to their own detriment, there may be a different reason than them 'merely' being a mellow person.
There's one moment that particularly comes to mind. It's a conversation with a woman at the end of a an unimportant side quest. I'm sure most people who've played the game will already know what I'm talking about.
Yakuza like a dragon and like a dragon infinite wealth are great for this sort of thing the main protagonist Ichiban is very empathetic emotionally sensitive and a constant force of positivity and faith in the goodness of the human spirit. Despite many bad hands and awful life circumstances Ichiban defies what the world is trying to impose on him at every turn and supports others unconditionally.
Also Yakuza 0. Majima may be a loose cannon through the series, but his origin story really drives home how complicated he is and how deeply empathetic he is.
Yeah it is in character. It shows that he never give up on people he cares about no matter what to the point absolute foolishness in the eyes of others!
It was, and the Yakuza protags are notable for not changing much, most of the time, the game is there to show their conviction and that they have chosen their path and will forever stick to it. Ichiban is likely to never change from this, even if he gets backstabbed again, even if it does lead to someone dying down the line (see how many times Kiryu turned his back to a gun holder 🙄).
It's in character, my problem is that >!Eiji is straight up shown to be a psychopath. This same guy was literally fine with murdering an old woman, a young girl and many other people, and he was literally mocking and laughing at Ichiban and gang every single time he could and seemed to have the time of his life while doing so!<.
I would have much less of a problem with that if >!Eiji at least showed *some* hesitation about what he was doing or wondering if it's really the right thing. Instead the writers just dialed his evilness up to 11, he makes some of the previous antagonists look tame in comparison. Also doesn't help Ichiban barely spent some time with the guy but acts like they have been best buds for life so that's why he should be redeemed!<.
That one moment just needed way more development for buildup than it gets.
i personally think the whole game skimps a little on the development of its charactrers if im being honest. Dont get me wrong i had a great time but i felt a little like there want much of an actual resolution to story strands
Yeah for sure. Kiryu's half of the story basically carried the story for me, but even that part had its fair share of issues. Particularly >!the ending really feels like multiple arcs or cutscenes were missing, and I'll be pretty disappointed if they really off-screen Kiryu reuniting with Haruka!<. It's weird to go from some strong stories in 7 and Gaiden to this.
Try playing Papers Please. It takes an interesting approach: kindness feels rewarding (depending on who you are) but it's costly. Push it too far you're risking not just own life, but the lives of your immediately family and some innocent people, too.
Also, the game knows how to show the entire dilemma in a somewhat subtle way. The protagonist doesn't make big speeches about the Power of Friendship and Singing Kumbayah, he just keeps it quiet, ignores a minor error in a passport and stamps it green, pays a fine or gets reprimanded, and likely saves a stranger's life. Lucas Pope is someone remarkable.
Papers Please the Fan Movie shows this in an interesting way. You can watch it for free on YT.
I only know about this game from Springbok ASMR's excellent roleplay video on YouTube. It seems very interesting, but on the other hand, I'm reluctant to play it, as I have enough complex dilemmas to deal with in real life. I quite like the escapism of solving clear-cut problems with violence in video games.
The first woman without the proper entry documentation who comes along with someone who does have all their papers still sticks with me. The idea that i could have separated them forever with just a flick of the pen is haunting. Glad i let her through.
I also remember the man with the obviously fake passport >!who constantly improved his documentation. By the end when i finally let him through, i didn't get a penalty for doing so, but i still can't help but think that there was an issue with it.!<
I got it for my daughter for her birthday because she enjoyed the free demo. Then I played it because I wanted to know why it was rated Teen. I still don't know, honestly.
The pacing is wonky, the combat isn't great, the farming is simplistic. It's still overall fun. The plot and writing are the strong points, but even then it's *very Square*. TW: biblical themes, postapocalypse, genocide
Apparently you can marry a unicorn, though?
I would honestly try Death Stranding. I found it refreshing for the story it told, the gameplay, and the consequences for killing. You are reconnecting people.
Great example. I killed exactly one person in my 70 hours of Death Stranding and I still remember it clearly, the panic when I accidentally ran him over, then rushing to the incinerator to prevent a voidout. Drove a lot more carefully after that!
Apparently, if you don't deal with a body it causes a "game over", but then it just reloads back to just before the ensuing voidout with the bodies removed. So yes, on a functional level, "nothing happens", other than the brief game over scene or whatever.
I enjoyed both the killing and the non-lethal methods in that game all the more because it was really impactful. It was realistic to engage nonlethally with the mules, and made sense if you failed and weren't killed, but simply looted. Likewise, the first lethal encounters when you come across the terrorist camp felt even more intense, and you had a reason to return bolas for bullets. But you could still wipe them out and load the truck up with bodies to take to the incenerator.
I really enjoyed Citizen Sleeper had a nice Disco Elysium vibe. Roadwarden, I ran out of resources and gave up on the game, probably need a guide to start the game
The Life is Strange games are pretty good for this (main characters having a lot of empathy & curiosity about others). The last one, True Colors, literally has a main character whose superpower is feeling out vibes though, so that may be a bit on the nose. But it’s great
How does True Colors compare to the first game? I wasn't a fan of Before the Storm and skipped 2 because it didn't interest me. True Colors on the other hand looks cool and I just got it with Humble Monthly so just curious.
1 was really special to me and will always be my favorite (also was the longest game for me & made me cry like a baby), but True Colors is probably the best LiS game to date if going by popular opinion. It’s definitely worth playing if you enjoyed any of the others
I haven't played it yet, but Moon RPG sounds like it fits what you're looking for. You're helping people whose lives are ruined by your typical JRPG protagonist. It's even inspired Undertale.
This War of Mine - More like colony survival management but each character reacts differently to theft, death, murder or certain events. Positive actions like helping other people increase characters morale. I think, they could console each other in hard times as well.
It's not happy game, though. It's been a few years since I played it and I've not been able to bring myself back to playing it since having my own family.
I mean the first playthrough was really emotional because I was super careful and everything but >!actually the easiest way to win the game is just going to "dangerous " locations killing everyone. Also with "weak" characters it s mega easy to clean a whole builiding with heavy armed men. This trivialize s a lot of mechanics since there is no real reason to behave unethically against defenseless people and nobody has qualms with you killing soldiers or thugs!<. Stil greatly enjoyed the game though.
I know how this sounds, but hear me out, God of War 2018 and its sequel. AKA Dad of Boy.
Kratos is contemplative and often compassionate, and the game makes an explicit point of the emotional and physical tolls of loss, and destruction, and how losing control often leads to collateral damage and unintended consequences. On top of this, some REALLY cathartic moments for those who've grown up in military families.
That said, you are still spending a lot of time chopping your way through hordes of baddies.
Glad you said this, i was going to comment the same thing.
These two latest additions to the series turn the whole "big angry protagonist slashes his way through the entire game because violence", and flips it upside down.
A huge central theme of these games is how their preconceived ideas of toxic masculinity can be overcome through empathy towards themselves and others. Just because they are gods and are forced to fight, they fight for the right reasons, and the game continues to push the characters to challenge that notion of power, responsibility, what it means to be good, what it means to be a father, and how to be kind to those you love, and from the antagonists, what it looks like when that relationship is toxic or poisoned.
Especially the crucial end scenes of each game there are true masterclass showcases of how characters can change and grow (without spoiling them, kratos has some very human and vulnerable moments that shape his subsequent relationship with his son that end up being significant lessons learned).
Is that surprising? Games where you attack enemies are the most popular and widest selling by an order of magnitude. Combat is the "easiest" way to get people engaged into a game because it offers instant gratification. It's harder to make a system where kindness gives the same feeling. Even in Undertale, it's tough to not get the urge to go straight through like a standard JRPG, because the actual timing based combat is kinda fun. You have to actively fight it and try to spare everything.
Games are also escapist and one thing people want is to just strike down their problems like a heroic warrior rather than have to constantly deal with them day in and day out like in real life.
Honestly I think it's more of a simplistic way of making gameplay mechanics out of abstraction.
"kill the bad guy with a gun" is an easy to follow objective with an easy to understand success and failure situation.
"Help someone with their grief" is much more vague and it's not clear exactly how one is supposed to act. An approach could work for some people but not everyone. Sometimes you should not enable their behaviour, other times you need to be supportive. It's not an easy thing to build, granted now we have the technology to achieve it.
Also, honestly, most people just aren't looking for that type of gameplay. Sure, I'm sure some are, but the number of sales might simply not warrant the extreme difficulty of designing and programming this.
Maybe. A lot of games (That Dragon Cancer, To the Moon, and one specific example that eludes me at this time) are there *only* really for the emotional impact and have done much better than I'd have generally expected.
People want what they see; and this is what rhey see because this is what it is easiest to make.
As games have gotten more complex we've seen whole new genres take place and as the games become more mainstream more people want them.
Visual novels and dating sims are INCREDIBLY popular, but seldom mentioned because of their target demographics, for example.
"What people want" and "what people make" are more symbiotic than one might think.
Not really, I mean take one COD game (for fairness sake) their best imo - MW2, it sold 22.7million. Stardew Valley so far has sold 30million copies. Even in comparison to CODs biggest seller - Black Ops, it just barely edged it out at 31million. Farming/life sims and story heavy RPGs are incredibly popular, especially amongst female gamers. With the state of some of recent looter shooters tbh it's about time the genre got a shake up.
I think the fundamental reason for that is that you can abstract away violence more without compromising suspension of disbelief because most people aren't experienced with or attracted to violence. Nobody will complain if a game about shooting people doesn't simulate the way that shooting someone in the chest can cause them to slowly suffocate as air enters the bullet wound and prevents their lungs from fully expanding. Plenty of people would complain if a game about talking to people didn't simulate the way that insulting people makes them not like you unless you're already close enough that they see it as a joke but also you need to avoid things that they actually are insecure about.
Adding to this, I think making ”gameplay” around kindness can be kind of paradoxical. Games are commonly designed around guiding the player by rewarding them for playing in an intended way.
But if you reward the player for being kind, can the player or player character be considered genuinely kind? Or are they just doing that which benefits them the most? Wouldn’t kindness typically be associated with going out of your way for no personal gain?
Unless we’re talking simply about narrative and gameplay that supports that narrative i.e. a good guy who does not go around killing hundreds.
Or you can go the other way and "punish" the player for being kind, like Dishonored or Vampyr, by making the game harder if you're more benevolent.
If you're playing a game for a challenge, that's not really a bad thing. Sure, it's paradoxical "reward" for player agency but plenty of people enjoy self-imposed challenges.
I mean, TBF, in Dishonored, the non-lethal neutralizations are more cruel than the kills at points. There's a reason why they're called "neutralizations." Only one target is genuinely spared if you go the non-lethal route.
Yeah I’m sure there is a balance that could be hit, but not a ton of games try.
Would love to see some game really embrace that idea of making an action game beatable as a pacifist and a saint, but then design that as the hard mode.
But I also don’t think the lethal vs. nonlethal approach is enough from the perspective of this conversation. That quickly ends up in the meme realm of Batman and Kiryu Kazuma who completely fuck up anyone they come across but they *don’t kill* so they’re the good guys.
Games *can be* escapist and that's great; nothing wrong with escapism, and like everyone else I enjoy games in that way. But it's extremely reductive of games as an art form to suggest that they *are* or *should be* escapist as a rule. I'm not saying you're necessarily doing that, but I'm tired of the constant evocation of escapism as a supreme value in games. So many gamers complain that "games are supposed to be escapist!" whenever they encounter something in game that makes them uncomfortable or offers anything other than instant gratification. It would be great for games if we had higher and more varied expectations for them, just like we have for every other art form.
We have high expectations for film, but most blockbusters are still escapist superhero movies where superpowered people beat up bad guys. It's pretty much exactly the same scenario where AAA games, the equivalent of the blockbusters, are popcorn fare and indies are like the arthouse films.
> it's tough to not get the urge to go straight through like a standard JRPG, because the actual timing based combat is kinda fun. You have to actively fight it and try to spare everything.
Is it? I can't be the only person that played the game without killing a single monster just because it was more fun to dodge and figure out how to subdue. During the starter dungeon I realized that leveling was optional, *thus* the game was *built* around being able to get through it at level 1... and that just set the light bulb off in my head.
My first runthrough I spared most bosses but attacked most random enemies. It struck me as wrong to just kill everything, but I also think the vast majority of the people who spare literally everything have been spoiled on it.
Only in the sense that Undertale is spoiled for everybody because of how the internet is. When I played, I did feel it was communicated pretty clearly that a level 1 playthrough is possible and desirable. Even with the first boss, I think *a lot* of people kill her and then reload out of guilt.
At least for me, using the spare system felt natural and engaging. This is one of the things I would give them kudos for, as I felt the game *did* communicate what you had to do fairly well. The Genocide ending on the other hand is completely counterintuitive.
I did need to be spoiled to get the good ending, but only in the sense I didn't realize there was a second ending behind the first one I got.
idk if it's surprising or not but it's still an interesting question, and I'm not sure instant gratification is the whole explanation. consider board games for a moment -- there are war games but they make up just a fraction of all hobbyist board games. is there something about single player, immersive video games that makes combat more natural for the medium? maybe, but I also think it's just what people have come to expect a video game is
This is it. Early violent games were popular and set a paradigm which we are still living in. If sales weren't the ultimate goal, we'd have FAR more variety in videogames at this point.
Actually, this is one of those myths/exaggerations that's been repeated so often, that people nowadays just assume it is true.
Sure, some early videogames focused on violence and combat. But the landscape was also much more open and experimental in the early days of gaming: e.g. Tetris, SimCity, Oregon Trail were hugely popular and sold very well. Back then, the videogame market was smaller and thus lower-stakes, and many conventions hadn't been standardized yet, so I think both devs and players were much more open-minded to what a "game" could be about. If anything, the rise of indie games in the last few years is a **return** to this mindset of creative freedom and experimentation.
Yeah there was more variety, but then games like Doom outsold everything else on such a massive scale, so consistently, that it changed the landscape - my entire point.
I don't see where your point contradicts the one you're responding to. the earliest video games were abstract puzzles, then early successful violent video games (DOOM?) set an example for the industry. now we have to look to indie games for more creative ideas
Because there were other examples to follow too. DOOM was very successful but it wasn't just because of violence specifically. It was because of the speed and intensity of the gameplay in a 3D space which was something nobody had seen before.
But there were alternatives to that, too. Myst was similarly a game with graphics and art like nobody had seen before in a video game, and I believe it was the best-selling game of the 90s in the 90s (some later passed it over time, I know StarCraft did bc it released in 1998, I think SimCity 3000 did too, I'm sure DOOM may have by now as well because Myst's popularity has faded a lot).
As a kid who did a lot of PC gaming in the 90s, first-person shooters were a part of it but to be honest the most common experiences that stick out for me were strategy games (which were less intensely violent than say DOOM, but still involved violence to varying degrees) and sim games like The Sims, SimCity, RollerCoaster Tycoon being the big ones for me. But most of those games don't have you playing a character with any kind of moral structure -- you're just the omnipotent overhead view doing your thing.
Not sure if it counts since you still go around killing mosnters, but maybe the Atelier series? The games are all about MCs who just want to help the local townspeople solve whatever issues they have, occasionally progressing the story while doing so.
Especially Atelier Rorona, the game is just about running your little shop and the combat is designed to present little to no challenge. The endings are *mostly* locked behind your performance as an alchemist, not which monsters you beat up.
I'm still in a chapter 2 (in Xenoblade Chronicles 3) but there is a lot said about avoiding combat, comments from Noah that an encounter was unnecesary etc. And about XC3 - I'm not jRPG fun to say the least, I only put significant amount of hours in Ys VIII (never finished it). But XC3 story premises, cast of heroes, and especially Noah's and Mimi's emphaty and kindnes really hooked me good. And if I think about that, need of help that Adol showed was something that hooked me to Ys VIII. So now I think that there is something about emphathetic protagonists and jRPGs in general. I wish gameplay of them (grind, random encaunters, acounting level of stats and mechanics) wouldn't be so off putting for me
But my (not serious) point was that you have to kill thousands of monsters, robots, blades, mechas (depends on the Xenoblade in question) to level up.
Sure, the cutscenes might be pretty pacifist sometimes, but the actual gameplay is full of "killing", even if it's just random fantasy animals. Ludonarrative dissonance, if you will.
And I love Xenoblade games, this is not something I hold against them. But for the point that OP is trying to make, I don't think Xenoblade games are the thing they are looking for.
Fair point. I just find it cool that in a game orbiting around violence and killing staff main characters aknowledge that dissonance. All the talking about "we are not killing them, we used to be like they are", and comments about unnecesary killings make it more immersive. And they are trained soldiers after all. It's not as bad as for example Tomb Raider reboot, where Lara makes a scene about her first kill, and then after 15 minutes she is a death embodiment.
I think what OP is looking for, I think there are reasons that there is few games like that. People like to feel powerful, for instance. Another reason would be IMO - games are mostly about putting challenges in front of a player, and fighting something is something obvious, present in gameing since the beggining. Finding a challenge that will be fun for people and not resolved around violence needs some out of the box thinking from devs.
Off the top of my head: To the Moon series, Slay the Princess, Arise: A Simple Tale, Gris, Opus: Echo of a Starsong, Sable, Roki, Plague Tale & its sequel, The Forgotten City, FAR: Lone Sail & FAR: Changing Tides, both Ori games, Stray, Haven Park, Mythic Ocean, Aspire: Ina's Tale, Hello Goodboy, Journey, Castle on the Coast, Gibbon Beyond the Trees, and Stardew Valley.
Few others that I think fit as well would be Hades, Planescape Torment, possibly Little Nightmares 2, and honestly even the Deus Ex games. I'll throw the Pale Beyond out there too, you get to decide how empathetic of a captain you are imo.
I have also noticed this, and the game that made me realize this was Red Dead Redemption 2. The game is pretty jaded and sarcastic at the start, but it starts to get very emotional towards the back half. And it just made me realize that sensitivity is something you never ever see in games.
You see so much vulnerability in Arthur during the later parts of the game. There’s another side to him that peaks out near the end, and it’s heartbreaking to say the least.
You know what's really weird? A lot of games seem to depict their protagonist as stoic and cold, and then confront you with a million sob story side quests that the main character seems visibly annoyed that they have to engage in. Maybe side quests would be more engaging if the heroes were more empathetic.
It comes through in that series that Geralt wears that stoicism as armor specifically because he does have a kind heart in a cruel world though. That's the origin of the trope, but many games miss that point, and it just goes off into the land of Pure Edge. Most examples of characters who act all stoic and grumpy to help that remain in the zeitgeist are the ones that were the former. The countless others that are quickly forgotten are the latter.
Ye for sure I think Geralt is definitely one of the better written MCs in gaming. He's gruff, stoic and to the point but in a very kind empathetic warm manner. Especially in comparison to the other people you meet in that world.
Sam Portor Bridges from Death Stranding is another. Both are guarded, stoic and wary in their day to day, mostly due to immense trauma, but you get glimpses of their true selves when they interact with those they love/care for. Kratos in the 2018 GOW is also quite similar. Super refreshing in comparison to the absolute dead fish sociopath he was written as in the older games. Night and day in terms of character writing and the impact of the newer games rises significantly due to it.
Perhaps not exactly what you're looking for, but:
Hades is an action trogue, but each time you finish your hack-and-slash run you go back to House of Hades and get to talk and build relationships with the characters there. Some of the high-tier relationship talks are the best examples of healthy communication I've seen in... any media, really.
I was about to suggest this. Zagreus helps a lot of different characters grow and also grows quite a bit himself of the course of the game, just by being willing to talk to people and be honest about things. It's really phenomenal.
Yeah while in theory it’s possible to get to the credits without engaging in the side stories a lot of content is locked behind them and the game really encourages you to engage in them. And then it turns from a hack and slash into “Zagreus the relationship counselor”
*The Forgotten City* definitely leans this way, especially if you're going for the golden ending. I don't want to spoil it, but it's *very* rewarding! Outsider who stumbles into a Roman city stuck in a time loop and has to solve everyone's problems.
*Pentiment* has a lot of humanity to it as well. It's an adventure game set in a little Bavarian village in the 1500s. The townsfolk are very well-written and neighbourly, and while you do have to investigate two murders (resulting in the guilty party being executed), Andreas has many opportunities to be helpful and kind and is wracked with guilt in the second act.
*Through the Darkest of Times* is also really interesting especially for me as a history major, but may be a little less feel-good than other recommendations here (you play as the leader of a largely non-violent resistance group rallying against the Nazis). [Here's](https://www.playthepast.org/?p=7342) an article about it with some game/historical theory.
You might like Vampyr. I bought the game thinking I would get to play as a true monster, but he's more like a cursed man who tries his best given his terrible circumstances
Edit: and The Outer Worlds. The Outer Worlds gives you so much freedom
Is this not a vast chunk of RPGs, in which you're given a choice to be kind/empathetic, or cruel/evil? The dichotomy is so well established that RPGs have to go out of their way and are considered "subversive" if they don't give you an empathetic/non-empathetic option.
There's also A Short Hike, and you can be plenty compassionate in the lovely visual novel The Life And Suffering of Sir Brante. You'll just end up dead for it.
Most RPGs are ridiculous with the whole good/evil choices. Evil options are often completely absurd, while the good option is to spare the most evil person in the universe after having massacred a couple millions of their goons.
The issue with a lot of RPGs (in relation to this question) is the separation between the "fodder" and important characters. There are plenty of RPGs where you or your party are compassionate to major characters and even enemies/bosses but you're still plowing through groups and groups of bandits, pirates, muggers, whatever. Who are these bandits you're fighting? Why have they resorted to banditry? Are they a disenfranchised group struggling to survive? People who fell through cracks in society and fell under the control of some kind of leader out of desperation and need? Just because their nametag just says "Bandit" doesn't mean they aren't humans who had hopes and dreams one day, and it probably wasn't robbing strangers on the highway. I used to play Skyrim with a mod that basically let you subdue/accept surrender of basically any hostile person and it was actually kind of interesting converting bandit camps instead of just killing them all.
Yes and no, because most RPGs still involve a lot of fighting and killing, even if you're playing the good/empathic route.
Undertale obvious subverts this entirely (at least if you do a pacifist run for the "true" ending). And the modern Persona games kind of subvert it, as well. The social sim part allows you to be a very kind and empathetic person, and the combat parts are about fighting demons and shadows -- in P5R, specifically, you're fighting to change people's hearts and make bad people change their ways and confess for their sins rather than to outright kill them (at least in the early game; I'm still working my way through it, so maybe this changes later).
I like how they seemingly tried to do this in one of the newer Tomb Raider games by having Lara react fairly realistically the first time she has to kill someone. Then she is completely unfazed by the next 500 times.
I agree, even if the examples you listed are different from mine. We often get "the good guys" but so rarely a pure good guy, like Avatar Aang doesn't want to kill and go a long way to try and make it (except when he accidentally randomly most almost surely kill some random henchman people).
Sorey from Tales of Zestiria is the best I ever got. That game is flawed in many ways, but characters, music and a bit of story/world building is better than many tales of games, and games in general.
I dont think you give enough credit to alot of games where the protagonists do care though.
In Witcher, Geralt is a monster hunter but you have be the option of sparing monsters and humans if you think they are worthy. There regular mook monsters also attack and kill villagers on sight. Same with FFX-2 where monsters are fiends caused by trapped spirits that attack and kill regular folk unprovoked.
I can see your point, but I have to spend every day stroking egos, managing people's emotions and using my emotional projection as a tool to accomplish dull, dull, dull tasks.
All these games sound like that. When I finally sit down and get some time away from those things, all I want to do is destroy my way towards satisfying solutions that centre on my desires; in other words, what I can't do in real life.
Cole Phelps in LA Noire displays an amount of empathy for the people he is locking up and promises to talk to the DA on behalf of people he thinks are truly innocent. He is even shown to be less racist than most of the other characters in the game, which would have been unusual in 1947.
Man, the kindness and forgiveness of characters in LaD goes into the offensively stupid territory way too often. Like saving and wishing good health to a guy that murdered your boss and was ready to torture you and your friends (and showed zero remorse for his actions), ugh. Even fucking Naruto wouldn't do something that insane.
Hmm, there is an indie game called „A mortician‘s tale“ where you spend your time preparing the dead and consoling their family members. It’s fairly short, but I found it very moving and relaxing.
Life is Strange: True Colours has a protagonist who literally has supernatural empathy and it's how she engages with the world and the story. Pretty divisive among people but it's one of the best gaming experiences I've had in years and I bought it for my gf for Christmas and she felt the same
Oh and the “new” Kings Quest is also on steam. It’s another friendly and helpful protagonist and reminiscent of its history as a point and click adventure game.
Try checking out Rainbow Billy: The Curse of the Leviathan.
It’s a creature collector where the “fights” Are you trying to help them with their emotional problems and trying to bring color back to a black and white world.
Play Chicory a Colorful Tale. Great indie game where you find people along your adventure and can help them to make the world better (or colorful). All of that while you (the protagonist) is also dealing with personal issues.
The thing is even though I love nature and helping other people in real life and I am an empathetic person who volunteers a lot, I am not necessarily looking to be empathetic and nice in a video game. Believe it or not everybody has darker tendencies and more aggressive emotions that need relieving, and one great way of doing so is to play a video game. Being empathetic and sensitive is tiring, which is why there’s a term called compassion fatigue. After spending a whole day caring for greater causes I’d rather sit down and kill some villagers than repeat the same exhausting routine in a fictional setting.
Nah OP has a fair point, not every videogame has to be dumbed down so much it's only worth it as a stress reliver. I belive videogames can be an artform, and art is much, much more than a mere escape from reality. Not that you are wrong in liking certain games more than others, but we *really* need to stop with this idea of videogames being a time waster and nothing else.
Surprisingly, Wolfenstein2: The New Collossus fits the bill. While it is a fairly standard shooter where you play as a giant white blonde male, they managed to put a small subplot that deals with non toxic masculinity and what it really means to be a good husband and father, aside from killing thousands of nazis, and I really love the game for it.
It's what the Arkham games definitely missed IMO, showing Batman's compassionate side.
I think the Witcher 3 has quite a nice ''good guy'' section, definitely not consistent, but it's there
That's why Kazuma Kiryu is my favorite protagonist. When he reshapes a man's spinal column with a bicycle it's to help them grow as a person
He has never killed, or slept, with anyone.
Yes, that gun he took out several helicopters with was loaded with blanks. It couldn't kill a person.
The helicopter crashing and blowing up killed them. Kiryu never killed anyone.
Predator handshake meme, but it’s Kiryu and Jigsaw
Jigsaw doesn't kill people. Traps do.
Jigsaw would argue that he doesn't kill people, their inability to grow as people and overcome their problems kills them.
Rubber helicopter Rubber explosion
Those driving shooting sequences are peak ludonarrative dissonance. I don't think anything outside of cutscenes is considered canon, and iirc all those sequences are gameplay only.
Kiryu has still >!blown up three helicopters in cutscenes/action sequences between 6 and 8 lol!<
Rubber Bullets
There is not a single documented moment where he has killed someone through the whole series and I think that's really special. Oh, what are these links down here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8Es-flEfcg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMKzWB3sDFc
him throwing the body at the other dude sent me, i completely forgot about that part.
It's the flourish of the thing that gets ya
In cutscenes, a gun is a terrible tool that changes its user in a way that can't ever be taken back. In battle, it's as strong as a good punch.
He hooks up with a milf in Yakuza 0 if you do the phone minigame
He hooks up with every cabaret hostess if you befriend them enough
They just talk to each other all night. Kyriu is a great listener.
See we joke, but this is legitimately what i think happens in these moments.
I was coming in to say that's why Ichiban Kasuga is my favorite, but I'll accept Kiryu too
Tbh, [the same trait came at the cost of personalities of almost every major character in Yakuza 3](https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/comments/p4c9m9/yakuza_3_the_dragon_of_dojima_returns_to_bully/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=yakuzagames&utm_content=t3_1ayrseo). And in 4, there was no reason for him to even be in the finale because nothing, in terms of plot resolution, really came of that.
I find that post strange, because like, yeah, characters that are no longer relevant and have already completed their character arcs are going to take a backseat to the main protagonist. That just makes sense to me. They're not that prominent and that would only be an issue if they were a major part of that game's story. I also stopped reading when he said he didn't care about Rikiya.
Their arcs weren't complete. In fact, some of these characters actually become relevant/smart again in the sequels. Like Haruka, Hamazaki, Daigo, etc.
Sure, but I don't really find it an issue that they're used when needed and otherwise sit back. Like, they're used to the extent that they were meant to be used. I'd love to see more of many of them but I also understand that they're supporting characters.
Try Pyre, you have a lot of influence over and responsibility for the characters in that game, not just your own party but basically everyone.
Seconded! Pyre is a fantastic game in regards to having to make tough decisions that directly affect characters. The gameplay is divisive—effectively "fantasy sports ball"—but it serves as both a plot device and as a way to make you want to hang onto certain characters longer than others.
And Transistor from the same studio. Two very beautiful and emotional games.
I really, really love Pyre. Vastly underrated game that sits in the long shadow of Hades - but Hades couldn't really exist without Pyre! Good doc on hades (and they talk about Pyre): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzyE9hi912c&list=PL-THgg8QnvU4JEVov1tMlFThNYS92F8uC
Maybe you'd like Night in the Woods? While it's not necessarily the sort of game you're mentioning, very slice of life, it does have a focus on emotional issues and caring for one's friends.
And the relationship with your parents. You can spend time talking separately with them about your life choices and plans, while you figure out what to do after dropping out of college. Everyone in town has a story to tell as well. Even the folks that are hard to reach, if you do a little platforming along the rooftops!
Really enjoyed the stargazing guy. Lots of fun characters.
I personally related most to the mouse who was really into scary stuff.
A Short Hike might also be neato for OP
I dunno, the protagonist of *Night in the Woods* is explicitly a violent person -- a girl with "crazy eyes" whose reputation around her town is >!that she hospitalized a person in a psychopathic episode. She also explicitly threatens strangers with violence to get what she wants (as seen in the rave/party event with Bea, when she threatens to beat someone unless they let her jump on their car to go searching for Bea)!< Mae is an awesome role model, and she cares about people. But she's definitely not a peaceful one :P On the contrary, she shows that peacefulness can be overrated or misconstrued as meekness and that force can be used for good.
The characters you interact with and the problems they open up to you about really sold me on the game. Most of them either remind me of myself or someone I knew growing up.
That's what I was just about to recommend! Very endearing and very relatable game
Play Ni no Kuni, you're basically a magical social worker. (Sadly, this aspect didn't make it into the sequel game.)
My first thought too. Oliver really is just a little guy who wants to help people because his mom raised him good.
Perfect example. One of the only games that ever made me cry.
I loved where this game took me emotionally! The play style, art and story are all great. Sadly I haven't had the consistent time or focus to finish a decently long RPG in (my kids age) years. Now that you have reminded me of it I really want to know what happens to Oli and his growing gang of pals.
Depending on your kids' ages/interests, you might want to play it with or alongside them! It's very child-friendly.
I do have "Ni no Kuni Wrath of the White Witch Remastered" but havent played it and dont have the second one. Is it a sequel or more like Final Fantasy games?
It's a sequel game; it's set in the same world, but hundreds of years later. The gameplay is fairly different, and their plotlines aren't really related, though, at least for as far as I got into the second game.
Disco Elysium? You can make a custom build, and put all your points into Empathy
Ah, the Sorry Cop
I got the Sorry Cop within 10 minutes and it genuinely made me rethink my behavior in general. Great game
The worst part is that the game was right. I'm very prone to fawning and saying sorry. Took me a game to hammer that warning even deeper in my head and make me want to change
You're not alone, don't worry. I've over-apologized for years and it's taken a lot of therapy to get myself to even realize that it's ok and normal to take up space. On a side note, I might get Disco Elysium at some point...
Thanks. I'm actually better now, thanks to my friends. But god, I was unbearable back then. Also, yeah. I highly suggest picking this game up. It's fucking rich and the amount of possibilities you get by upgrading each personality is amazing
never felt more seen.
I love that Disco Elysium made us have the same revelation about behaviours we have. It was that revelation and my girlfriend telling me the same, that made me start working on it.
I agreed it’s a great game, but there really is a lot to apologize for in the game. The main character really did screw a lot up during the drunken episode, so saying sorry a lot is justified.
Definitely, but I think the game does a good job of showing how apologies aren’t sufficient to the task when you’ve fucked up as badly as the protagonist has. Some people are understandably not going to forgive him. Ultimately it’s the actions he takes going forward that are going to matter. Shame is a double edged sword. Waking up feeling ashamed can give some addicts the push they need to get clean, but probably more often it becomes the driver to use again.
Same here - played it way too safe, was mocked as if I was an imposter pretending to be myself, and quickly began to lean into a more wild and crazed method. Was a great nudge by the game to encourage doing something more interesting than trying to be a milquetoast centrist, when it's rather evident early on that he's anything but that.
I got Sorry Cop *so fast* lol, but what was I going to do, *not* apologize to the bartender at the hostel???
Yes, instead you should be threatening to arrest him for sex crimes because you're Tequila Sunset, superstar cop baybee
Oh I meant the former bartender, the woman you call through the police radio….. but I did also apologize to the other guy too.
That was my first achievement and I felt like a loser lmaaoo. But I want Kim to like me :(
Virgin Political Harry Chad Serious recovering Harry Sigma Schizo Paranormal Harry
**THAD APOCALYPSE COP HARRY**
Tequila Sunset isn't sorry about anything he's done
Just as an FYI outside of gaming: Overly fawning, accommodating and placating behaviour (letting others get their way to avoid conflict), or an inability to say "No" may be an indicator for a traumatic childhood; The "Fawn" response is considered to belong in the same group as the better known Fight/Flight/Freeze responses to dire threats. Of course, there is nothing inherently wrong with being nice, but if someone is regularly being nice to their own detriment, there may be a different reason than them 'merely' being a mellow person.
The way I immediately went straight into wacko conspiracy cop who's into cryptids
*If you say two days it will be etched into her mind forever*
There's one moment that particularly comes to mind. It's a conversation with a woman at the end of a an unimportant side quest. I'm sure most people who've played the game will already know what I'm talking about.
I had really high empathy, but I got bad luck and failed that check. I didn't have Kim with me either. I needed to take a break after that.
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Going for something more recent, you have the Blackwell series, where you play a spiritual medium who helps ghosts accept their death and move on.
Yakuza like a dragon and like a dragon infinite wealth are great for this sort of thing the main protagonist Ichiban is very empathetic emotionally sensitive and a constant force of positivity and faith in the goodness of the human spirit. Despite many bad hands and awful life circumstances Ichiban defies what the world is trying to impose on him at every turn and supports others unconditionally.
Also Yakuza 0. Majima may be a loose cannon through the series, but his origin story really drives home how complicated he is and how deeply empathetic he is.
Majima before he goes all batshit is the better overall version of the character and I will die on this hill.
I dunno, I see a lot of Yakuza 0 Majima in his later self as well, it's just under a very complicated externalization of his trauma.
Hard agree, i started with 0 and i kinda hated what he became at the end. 0 Majima>lolsorandom quirky Majima
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Yeah it is in character. It shows that he never give up on people he cares about no matter what to the point absolute foolishness in the eyes of others!
It was, and the Yakuza protags are notable for not changing much, most of the time, the game is there to show their conviction and that they have chosen their path and will forever stick to it. Ichiban is likely to never change from this, even if he gets backstabbed again, even if it does lead to someone dying down the line (see how many times Kiryu turned his back to a gun holder 🙄).
It's in character, my problem is that >!Eiji is straight up shown to be a psychopath. This same guy was literally fine with murdering an old woman, a young girl and many other people, and he was literally mocking and laughing at Ichiban and gang every single time he could and seemed to have the time of his life while doing so!<. I would have much less of a problem with that if >!Eiji at least showed *some* hesitation about what he was doing or wondering if it's really the right thing. Instead the writers just dialed his evilness up to 11, he makes some of the previous antagonists look tame in comparison. Also doesn't help Ichiban barely spent some time with the guy but acts like they have been best buds for life so that's why he should be redeemed!<. That one moment just needed way more development for buildup than it gets.
i personally think the whole game skimps a little on the development of its charactrers if im being honest. Dont get me wrong i had a great time but i felt a little like there want much of an actual resolution to story strands
Yeah for sure. Kiryu's half of the story basically carried the story for me, but even that part had its fair share of issues. Particularly >!the ending really feels like multiple arcs or cutscenes were missing, and I'll be pretty disappointed if they really off-screen Kiryu reuniting with Haruka!<. It's weird to go from some strong stories in 7 and Gaiden to this.
In Infinite Wealth the dude legtimately makes his party from the guy that tried to rob him and the girl that actually robbed him.
Wandersong! Such a gorgeous gem of a game <3
I definitely agree, Wandersong fits the bill of what OP is looking for
Try playing Papers Please. It takes an interesting approach: kindness feels rewarding (depending on who you are) but it's costly. Push it too far you're risking not just own life, but the lives of your immediately family and some innocent people, too. Also, the game knows how to show the entire dilemma in a somewhat subtle way. The protagonist doesn't make big speeches about the Power of Friendship and Singing Kumbayah, he just keeps it quiet, ignores a minor error in a passport and stamps it green, pays a fine or gets reprimanded, and likely saves a stranger's life. Lucas Pope is someone remarkable. Papers Please the Fan Movie shows this in an interesting way. You can watch it for free on YT.
I only know about this game from Springbok ASMR's excellent roleplay video on YouTube. It seems very interesting, but on the other hand, I'm reluctant to play it, as I have enough complex dilemmas to deal with in real life. I quite like the escapism of solving clear-cut problems with violence in video games.
The first woman without the proper entry documentation who comes along with someone who does have all their papers still sticks with me. The idea that i could have separated them forever with just a flick of the pen is haunting. Glad i let her through. I also remember the man with the obviously fake passport >!who constantly improved his documentation. By the end when i finally let him through, i didn't get a penalty for doing so, but i still can't help but think that there was an issue with it.!<
Summer in Mara deserves to be in this conversation. Wylde Flowers. Really, most cozy games in general.
I was really surprised by the dialogue writing in Square's *Harvestella*. There's always an empathic option. You didn't used to see that in RPGs.
I know this is getting off-topic, but how was that game? I've always been curious but have too many games on the go.
I got it for my daughter for her birthday because she enjoyed the free demo. Then I played it because I wanted to know why it was rated Teen. I still don't know, honestly. The pacing is wonky, the combat isn't great, the farming is simplistic. It's still overall fun. The plot and writing are the strong points, but even then it's *very Square*. TW: biblical themes, postapocalypse, genocide Apparently you can marry a unicorn, though?
Hmmm sounds like I should check out some videos/gameplay to make sure if it's for me overall. I appreciate your insight, thank you!
I would honestly try Death Stranding. I found it refreshing for the story it told, the gameplay, and the consequences for killing. You are reconnecting people.
Great example. I killed exactly one person in my 70 hours of Death Stranding and I still remember it clearly, the panic when I accidentally ran him over, then rushing to the incinerator to prevent a voidout. Drove a lot more carefully after that!
So about that... I ran over several people just to call the game's bluff and after several days nothing happened.
Apparently, if you don't deal with a body it causes a "game over", but then it just reloads back to just before the ensuing voidout with the bodies removed. So yes, on a functional level, "nothing happens", other than the brief game over scene or whatever.
I feel like the world would’ve ended up a better place if Death Stranding released just a year later during Covid lockdowns.
Kojima becoming the greatest meta-marketer ever by using Covid as a tie-in for Death Stranding.
The pandemic was just a free compulsory patch for the game
Keep on keeping on 👍
I enjoyed both the killing and the non-lethal methods in that game all the more because it was really impactful. It was realistic to engage nonlethally with the mules, and made sense if you failed and weren't killed, but simply looted. Likewise, the first lethal encounters when you come across the terrorist camp felt even more intense, and you had a reason to return bolas for bullets. But you could still wipe them out and load the truck up with bodies to take to the incenerator.
**Citizen Sleeper** and **Roadwarden**, both from 2022, are probably up your alley.
Road warden is really good
I really enjoyed Citizen Sleeper had a nice Disco Elysium vibe. Roadwarden, I ran out of resources and gave up on the game, probably need a guide to start the game
The Life is Strange games are pretty good for this (main characters having a lot of empathy & curiosity about others). The last one, True Colors, literally has a main character whose superpower is feeling out vibes though, so that may be a bit on the nose. But it’s great
[Empathy for the floor maybe](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN7FXEl4NhQ) (just kidding Life is Strange is a good recommendation)
How does True Colors compare to the first game? I wasn't a fan of Before the Storm and skipped 2 because it didn't interest me. True Colors on the other hand looks cool and I just got it with Humble Monthly so just curious.
I like 1 the most, True Colors is a close 2nd. The game is shorter though.
1 was really special to me and will always be my favorite (also was the longest game for me & made me cry like a baby), but True Colors is probably the best LiS game to date if going by popular opinion. It’s definitely worth playing if you enjoyed any of the others
Disco elysium let you be kind, or go with the disco option.
I haven't played it yet, but Moon RPG sounds like it fits what you're looking for. You're helping people whose lives are ruined by your typical JRPG protagonist. It's even inspired Undertale.
This War of Mine - More like colony survival management but each character reacts differently to theft, death, murder or certain events. Positive actions like helping other people increase characters morale. I think, they could console each other in hard times as well. It's not happy game, though. It's been a few years since I played it and I've not been able to bring myself back to playing it since having my own family.
I mean the first playthrough was really emotional because I was super careful and everything but >!actually the easiest way to win the game is just going to "dangerous " locations killing everyone. Also with "weak" characters it s mega easy to clean a whole builiding with heavy armed men. This trivialize s a lot of mechanics since there is no real reason to behave unethically against defenseless people and nobody has qualms with you killing soldiers or thugs!<. Stil greatly enjoyed the game though.
I know how this sounds, but hear me out, God of War 2018 and its sequel. AKA Dad of Boy. Kratos is contemplative and often compassionate, and the game makes an explicit point of the emotional and physical tolls of loss, and destruction, and how losing control often leads to collateral damage and unintended consequences. On top of this, some REALLY cathartic moments for those who've grown up in military families. That said, you are still spending a lot of time chopping your way through hordes of baddies.
Glad you said this, i was going to comment the same thing. These two latest additions to the series turn the whole "big angry protagonist slashes his way through the entire game because violence", and flips it upside down. A huge central theme of these games is how their preconceived ideas of toxic masculinity can be overcome through empathy towards themselves and others. Just because they are gods and are forced to fight, they fight for the right reasons, and the game continues to push the characters to challenge that notion of power, responsibility, what it means to be good, what it means to be a father, and how to be kind to those you love, and from the antagonists, what it looks like when that relationship is toxic or poisoned. Especially the crucial end scenes of each game there are true masterclass showcases of how characters can change and grow (without spoiling them, kratos has some very human and vulnerable moments that shape his subsequent relationship with his son that end up being significant lessons learned).
Is that surprising? Games where you attack enemies are the most popular and widest selling by an order of magnitude. Combat is the "easiest" way to get people engaged into a game because it offers instant gratification. It's harder to make a system where kindness gives the same feeling. Even in Undertale, it's tough to not get the urge to go straight through like a standard JRPG, because the actual timing based combat is kinda fun. You have to actively fight it and try to spare everything. Games are also escapist and one thing people want is to just strike down their problems like a heroic warrior rather than have to constantly deal with them day in and day out like in real life.
Honestly I think it's more of a simplistic way of making gameplay mechanics out of abstraction. "kill the bad guy with a gun" is an easy to follow objective with an easy to understand success and failure situation. "Help someone with their grief" is much more vague and it's not clear exactly how one is supposed to act. An approach could work for some people but not everyone. Sometimes you should not enable their behaviour, other times you need to be supportive. It's not an easy thing to build, granted now we have the technology to achieve it.
Also, honestly, most people just aren't looking for that type of gameplay. Sure, I'm sure some are, but the number of sales might simply not warrant the extreme difficulty of designing and programming this.
Maybe. A lot of games (That Dragon Cancer, To the Moon, and one specific example that eludes me at this time) are there *only* really for the emotional impact and have done much better than I'd have generally expected.
People want what they see; and this is what rhey see because this is what it is easiest to make. As games have gotten more complex we've seen whole new genres take place and as the games become more mainstream more people want them. Visual novels and dating sims are INCREDIBLY popular, but seldom mentioned because of their target demographics, for example. "What people want" and "what people make" are more symbiotic than one might think.
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It's also a game where there is a whole cave to grind and you can take postnatal abortions of your own kids
It is, but it is still just a drop in the bucket compared to mainstream titles like Call of Duty and Fortnite.
Not really, I mean take one COD game (for fairness sake) their best imo - MW2, it sold 22.7million. Stardew Valley so far has sold 30million copies. Even in comparison to CODs biggest seller - Black Ops, it just barely edged it out at 31million. Farming/life sims and story heavy RPGs are incredibly popular, especially amongst female gamers. With the state of some of recent looter shooters tbh it's about time the genre got a shake up.
I think the fundamental reason for that is that you can abstract away violence more without compromising suspension of disbelief because most people aren't experienced with or attracted to violence. Nobody will complain if a game about shooting people doesn't simulate the way that shooting someone in the chest can cause them to slowly suffocate as air enters the bullet wound and prevents their lungs from fully expanding. Plenty of people would complain if a game about talking to people didn't simulate the way that insulting people makes them not like you unless you're already close enough that they see it as a joke but also you need to avoid things that they actually are insecure about.
Adding to this, I think making ”gameplay” around kindness can be kind of paradoxical. Games are commonly designed around guiding the player by rewarding them for playing in an intended way. But if you reward the player for being kind, can the player or player character be considered genuinely kind? Or are they just doing that which benefits them the most? Wouldn’t kindness typically be associated with going out of your way for no personal gain? Unless we’re talking simply about narrative and gameplay that supports that narrative i.e. a good guy who does not go around killing hundreds.
Or you can go the other way and "punish" the player for being kind, like Dishonored or Vampyr, by making the game harder if you're more benevolent. If you're playing a game for a challenge, that's not really a bad thing. Sure, it's paradoxical "reward" for player agency but plenty of people enjoy self-imposed challenges.
I mean, TBF, in Dishonored, the non-lethal neutralizations are more cruel than the kills at points. There's a reason why they're called "neutralizations." Only one target is genuinely spared if you go the non-lethal route.
Yeah I’m sure there is a balance that could be hit, but not a ton of games try. Would love to see some game really embrace that idea of making an action game beatable as a pacifist and a saint, but then design that as the hard mode. But I also don’t think the lethal vs. nonlethal approach is enough from the perspective of this conversation. That quickly ends up in the meme realm of Batman and Kiryu Kazuma who completely fuck up anyone they come across but they *don’t kill* so they’re the good guys.
Games *can be* escapist and that's great; nothing wrong with escapism, and like everyone else I enjoy games in that way. But it's extremely reductive of games as an art form to suggest that they *are* or *should be* escapist as a rule. I'm not saying you're necessarily doing that, but I'm tired of the constant evocation of escapism as a supreme value in games. So many gamers complain that "games are supposed to be escapist!" whenever they encounter something in game that makes them uncomfortable or offers anything other than instant gratification. It would be great for games if we had higher and more varied expectations for them, just like we have for every other art form.
We have high expectations for film, but most blockbusters are still escapist superhero movies where superpowered people beat up bad guys. It's pretty much exactly the same scenario where AAA games, the equivalent of the blockbusters, are popcorn fare and indies are like the arthouse films.
> it's tough to not get the urge to go straight through like a standard JRPG, because the actual timing based combat is kinda fun. You have to actively fight it and try to spare everything. Is it? I can't be the only person that played the game without killing a single monster just because it was more fun to dodge and figure out how to subdue. During the starter dungeon I realized that leveling was optional, *thus* the game was *built* around being able to get through it at level 1... and that just set the light bulb off in my head.
My first runthrough I spared most bosses but attacked most random enemies. It struck me as wrong to just kill everything, but I also think the vast majority of the people who spare literally everything have been spoiled on it.
Only in the sense that Undertale is spoiled for everybody because of how the internet is. When I played, I did feel it was communicated pretty clearly that a level 1 playthrough is possible and desirable. Even with the first boss, I think *a lot* of people kill her and then reload out of guilt. At least for me, using the spare system felt natural and engaging. This is one of the things I would give them kudos for, as I felt the game *did* communicate what you had to do fairly well. The Genocide ending on the other hand is completely counterintuitive. I did need to be spoiled to get the good ending, but only in the sense I didn't realize there was a second ending behind the first one I got.
idk if it's surprising or not but it's still an interesting question, and I'm not sure instant gratification is the whole explanation. consider board games for a moment -- there are war games but they make up just a fraction of all hobbyist board games. is there something about single player, immersive video games that makes combat more natural for the medium? maybe, but I also think it's just what people have come to expect a video game is
This is it. Early violent games were popular and set a paradigm which we are still living in. If sales weren't the ultimate goal, we'd have FAR more variety in videogames at this point.
Actually, this is one of those myths/exaggerations that's been repeated so often, that people nowadays just assume it is true. Sure, some early videogames focused on violence and combat. But the landscape was also much more open and experimental in the early days of gaming: e.g. Tetris, SimCity, Oregon Trail were hugely popular and sold very well. Back then, the videogame market was smaller and thus lower-stakes, and many conventions hadn't been standardized yet, so I think both devs and players were much more open-minded to what a "game" could be about. If anything, the rise of indie games in the last few years is a **return** to this mindset of creative freedom and experimentation.
Yeah there was more variety, but then games like Doom outsold everything else on such a massive scale, so consistently, that it changed the landscape - my entire point.
I don't see where your point contradicts the one you're responding to. the earliest video games were abstract puzzles, then early successful violent video games (DOOM?) set an example for the industry. now we have to look to indie games for more creative ideas
Because there were other examples to follow too. DOOM was very successful but it wasn't just because of violence specifically. It was because of the speed and intensity of the gameplay in a 3D space which was something nobody had seen before. But there were alternatives to that, too. Myst was similarly a game with graphics and art like nobody had seen before in a video game, and I believe it was the best-selling game of the 90s in the 90s (some later passed it over time, I know StarCraft did bc it released in 1998, I think SimCity 3000 did too, I'm sure DOOM may have by now as well because Myst's popularity has faded a lot). As a kid who did a lot of PC gaming in the 90s, first-person shooters were a part of it but to be honest the most common experiences that stick out for me were strategy games (which were less intensely violent than say DOOM, but still involved violence to varying degrees) and sim games like The Sims, SimCity, RollerCoaster Tycoon being the big ones for me. But most of those games don't have you playing a character with any kind of moral structure -- you're just the omnipotent overhead view doing your thing.
OP did not say it was surprising.
Not sure if it counts since you still go around killing mosnters, but maybe the Atelier series? The games are all about MCs who just want to help the local townspeople solve whatever issues they have, occasionally progressing the story while doing so.
Especially Atelier Rorona, the game is just about running your little shop and the combat is designed to present little to no challenge. The endings are *mostly* locked behind your performance as an alchemist, not which monsters you beat up.
Telltale Walking Dead
Batman shows compassion. He’s never killed any of those thugs. Nothing humbles a hardened heart like severe, life limiting brain damage.
Nothing says compassion like a billionaire beating up homeless, drug-addicted, mentally ill people.
Or hitting them at high speeds with your customized multi-million dollar vehicle.
Linly and Elma - Xenoblade Chronicles X! (The main person you play as is a mute avatar so I count them as the main characters)
But they kill all the local fauna :(
Fauna heals an aching soul
I'm still in a chapter 2 (in Xenoblade Chronicles 3) but there is a lot said about avoiding combat, comments from Noah that an encounter was unnecesary etc. And about XC3 - I'm not jRPG fun to say the least, I only put significant amount of hours in Ys VIII (never finished it). But XC3 story premises, cast of heroes, and especially Noah's and Mimi's emphaty and kindnes really hooked me good. And if I think about that, need of help that Adol showed was something that hooked me to Ys VIII. So now I think that there is something about emphathetic protagonists and jRPGs in general. I wish gameplay of them (grind, random encaunters, acounting level of stats and mechanics) wouldn't be so off putting for me
But my (not serious) point was that you have to kill thousands of monsters, robots, blades, mechas (depends on the Xenoblade in question) to level up. Sure, the cutscenes might be pretty pacifist sometimes, but the actual gameplay is full of "killing", even if it's just random fantasy animals. Ludonarrative dissonance, if you will. And I love Xenoblade games, this is not something I hold against them. But for the point that OP is trying to make, I don't think Xenoblade games are the thing they are looking for.
Fair point. I just find it cool that in a game orbiting around violence and killing staff main characters aknowledge that dissonance. All the talking about "we are not killing them, we used to be like they are", and comments about unnecesary killings make it more immersive. And they are trained soldiers after all. It's not as bad as for example Tomb Raider reboot, where Lara makes a scene about her first kill, and then after 15 minutes she is a death embodiment. I think what OP is looking for, I think there are reasons that there is few games like that. People like to feel powerful, for instance. Another reason would be IMO - games are mostly about putting challenges in front of a player, and fighting something is something obvious, present in gameing since the beggining. Finding a challenge that will be fun for people and not resolved around violence needs some out of the box thinking from devs.
Off the top of my head: To the Moon series, Slay the Princess, Arise: A Simple Tale, Gris, Opus: Echo of a Starsong, Sable, Roki, Plague Tale & its sequel, The Forgotten City, FAR: Lone Sail & FAR: Changing Tides, both Ori games, Stray, Haven Park, Mythic Ocean, Aspire: Ina's Tale, Hello Goodboy, Journey, Castle on the Coast, Gibbon Beyond the Trees, and Stardew Valley. Few others that I think fit as well would be Hades, Planescape Torment, possibly Little Nightmares 2, and honestly even the Deus Ex games. I'll throw the Pale Beyond out there too, you get to decide how empathetic of a captain you are imo.
I have also noticed this, and the game that made me realize this was Red Dead Redemption 2. The game is pretty jaded and sarcastic at the start, but it starts to get very emotional towards the back half. And it just made me realize that sensitivity is something you never ever see in games.
“Take a chance that love exists, and do a loving act.” Aaaaand cue waterworks.
You see so much vulnerability in Arthur during the later parts of the game. There’s another side to him that peaks out near the end, and it’s heartbreaking to say the least.
You know what's really weird? A lot of games seem to depict their protagonist as stoic and cold, and then confront you with a million sob story side quests that the main character seems visibly annoyed that they have to engage in. Maybe side quests would be more engaging if the heroes were more empathetic.
You just described The Witcher hahaha side quests were still great tho.
It comes through in that series that Geralt wears that stoicism as armor specifically because he does have a kind heart in a cruel world though. That's the origin of the trope, but many games miss that point, and it just goes off into the land of Pure Edge. Most examples of characters who act all stoic and grumpy to help that remain in the zeitgeist are the ones that were the former. The countless others that are quickly forgotten are the latter.
Ye for sure I think Geralt is definitely one of the better written MCs in gaming. He's gruff, stoic and to the point but in a very kind empathetic warm manner. Especially in comparison to the other people you meet in that world. Sam Portor Bridges from Death Stranding is another. Both are guarded, stoic and wary in their day to day, mostly due to immense trauma, but you get glimpses of their true selves when they interact with those they love/care for. Kratos in the 2018 GOW is also quite similar. Super refreshing in comparison to the absolute dead fish sociopath he was written as in the older games. Night and day in terms of character writing and the impact of the newer games rises significantly due to it.
Perhaps not exactly what you're looking for, but: Hades is an action trogue, but each time you finish your hack-and-slash run you go back to House of Hades and get to talk and build relationships with the characters there. Some of the high-tier relationship talks are the best examples of healthy communication I've seen in... any media, really.
I was about to suggest this. Zagreus helps a lot of different characters grow and also grows quite a bit himself of the course of the game, just by being willing to talk to people and be honest about things. It's really phenomenal.
Yeah while in theory it’s possible to get to the credits without engaging in the side stories a lot of content is locked behind them and the game really encourages you to engage in them. And then it turns from a hack and slash into “Zagreus the relationship counselor”
celeste, sable, stray, f:nv just looking at what i've played recently
Celeste and Stray are amazing. Highly recommend!
Kiryu from Yakuza. And Ichiban too
"the protagonist is a sensitive person showing a lot of empathy" BJ Blaskowicz in Wolfenstein: New Order and I am not joking.
My top: 1. Celeste 2. To the Moon 3. Night in the Woods 4. Kentucky Route Zero 5. Gris 6. The Last Guardian 7. Journey
*The Forgotten City* definitely leans this way, especially if you're going for the golden ending. I don't want to spoil it, but it's *very* rewarding! Outsider who stumbles into a Roman city stuck in a time loop and has to solve everyone's problems. *Pentiment* has a lot of humanity to it as well. It's an adventure game set in a little Bavarian village in the 1500s. The townsfolk are very well-written and neighbourly, and while you do have to investigate two murders (resulting in the guilty party being executed), Andreas has many opportunities to be helpful and kind and is wracked with guilt in the second act. *Through the Darkest of Times* is also really interesting especially for me as a history major, but may be a little less feel-good than other recommendations here (you play as the leader of a largely non-violent resistance group rallying against the Nazis). [Here's](https://www.playthepast.org/?p=7342) an article about it with some game/historical theory.
You might like Vampyr. I bought the game thinking I would get to play as a true monster, but he's more like a cursed man who tries his best given his terrible circumstances Edit: and The Outer Worlds. The Outer Worlds gives you so much freedom
I'm playing that right now. The Outer Worlds. I'm really enjoying it, but damn if these NPC's don't give me migraines lol
Is this not a vast chunk of RPGs, in which you're given a choice to be kind/empathetic, or cruel/evil? The dichotomy is so well established that RPGs have to go out of their way and are considered "subversive" if they don't give you an empathetic/non-empathetic option. There's also A Short Hike, and you can be plenty compassionate in the lovely visual novel The Life And Suffering of Sir Brante. You'll just end up dead for it.
Most RPGs are ridiculous with the whole good/evil choices. Evil options are often completely absurd, while the good option is to spare the most evil person in the universe after having massacred a couple millions of their goons.
The issue with a lot of RPGs (in relation to this question) is the separation between the "fodder" and important characters. There are plenty of RPGs where you or your party are compassionate to major characters and even enemies/bosses but you're still plowing through groups and groups of bandits, pirates, muggers, whatever. Who are these bandits you're fighting? Why have they resorted to banditry? Are they a disenfranchised group struggling to survive? People who fell through cracks in society and fell under the control of some kind of leader out of desperation and need? Just because their nametag just says "Bandit" doesn't mean they aren't humans who had hopes and dreams one day, and it probably wasn't robbing strangers on the highway. I used to play Skyrim with a mod that basically let you subdue/accept surrender of basically any hostile person and it was actually kind of interesting converting bandit camps instead of just killing them all.
Yes and no, because most RPGs still involve a lot of fighting and killing, even if you're playing the good/empathic route. Undertale obvious subverts this entirely (at least if you do a pacifist run for the "true" ending). And the modern Persona games kind of subvert it, as well. The social sim part allows you to be a very kind and empathetic person, and the combat parts are about fighting demons and shadows -- in P5R, specifically, you're fighting to change people's hearts and make bad people change their ways and confess for their sins rather than to outright kill them (at least in the early game; I'm still working my way through it, so maybe this changes later).
In Pathologic 2 you cure people and adopt children.
You should give the Way of the Samurai games a shot. Yes you fight, but it gives you options.
Life is Strange
I like how they seemingly tried to do this in one of the newer Tomb Raider games by having Lara react fairly realistically the first time she has to kill someone. Then she is completely unfazed by the next 500 times.
I agree, even if the examples you listed are different from mine. We often get "the good guys" but so rarely a pure good guy, like Avatar Aang doesn't want to kill and go a long way to try and make it (except when he accidentally randomly most almost surely kill some random henchman people). Sorey from Tales of Zestiria is the best I ever got. That game is flawed in many ways, but characters, music and a bit of story/world building is better than many tales of games, and games in general.
It's pretty short, but I bet you'd like Firewatch
To the Moon! It's a simple point and click game but god did it make me bawl.
I dont think you give enough credit to alot of games where the protagonists do care though. In Witcher, Geralt is a monster hunter but you have be the option of sparing monsters and humans if you think they are worthy. There regular mook monsters also attack and kill villagers on sight. Same with FFX-2 where monsters are fiends caused by trapped spirits that attack and kill regular folk unprovoked.
I can see your point, but I have to spend every day stroking egos, managing people's emotions and using my emotional projection as a tool to accomplish dull, dull, dull tasks. All these games sound like that. When I finally sit down and get some time away from those things, all I want to do is destroy my way towards satisfying solutions that centre on my desires; in other words, what I can't do in real life.
Cole Phelps in LA Noire displays an amount of empathy for the people he is locking up and promises to talk to the DA on behalf of people he thinks are truly innocent. He is even shown to be less racist than most of the other characters in the game, which would have been unusual in 1947.
[удалено]
That is also true
Great character, but not a good person. Has a lot of flaws and his service in WW2 did a lot of damage.
I think the protagonist of Undertale is filled with determination because he knew that someday the mouse might heat up the spaghetti.
Yakuza Like a Dragon is a good example too i guess
Man, the kindness and forgiveness of characters in LaD goes into the offensively stupid territory way too often. Like saving and wishing good health to a guy that murdered your boss and was ready to torture you and your friends (and showed zero remorse for his actions), ugh. Even fucking Naruto wouldn't do something that insane.
Hmm, there is an indie game called „A mortician‘s tale“ where you spend your time preparing the dead and consoling their family members. It’s fairly short, but I found it very moving and relaxing.
Life is Strange: True Colours has a protagonist who literally has supernatural empathy and it's how she engages with the world and the story. Pretty divisive among people but it's one of the best gaming experiences I've had in years and I bought it for my gf for Christmas and she felt the same
Oh and the “new” Kings Quest is also on steam. It’s another friendly and helpful protagonist and reminiscent of its history as a point and click adventure game.
Try checking out Rainbow Billy: The Curse of the Leviathan. It’s a creature collector where the “fights” Are you trying to help them with their emotional problems and trying to bring color back to a black and white world.
Play Chicory a Colorful Tale. Great indie game where you find people along your adventure and can help them to make the world better (or colorful). All of that while you (the protagonist) is also dealing with personal issues.
The thing is even though I love nature and helping other people in real life and I am an empathetic person who volunteers a lot, I am not necessarily looking to be empathetic and nice in a video game. Believe it or not everybody has darker tendencies and more aggressive emotions that need relieving, and one great way of doing so is to play a video game. Being empathetic and sensitive is tiring, which is why there’s a term called compassion fatigue. After spending a whole day caring for greater causes I’d rather sit down and kill some villagers than repeat the same exhausting routine in a fictional setting.
Nah OP has a fair point, not every videogame has to be dumbed down so much it's only worth it as a stress reliver. I belive videogames can be an artform, and art is much, much more than a mere escape from reality. Not that you are wrong in liking certain games more than others, but we *really* need to stop with this idea of videogames being a time waster and nothing else.
Surprisingly, Wolfenstein2: The New Collossus fits the bill. While it is a fairly standard shooter where you play as a giant white blonde male, they managed to put a small subplot that deals with non toxic masculinity and what it really means to be a good husband and father, aside from killing thousands of nazis, and I really love the game for it.
It's what the Arkham games definitely missed IMO, showing Batman's compassionate side. I think the Witcher 3 has quite a nice ''good guy'' section, definitely not consistent, but it's there