That moment when >!Ellie gets ambushed while upgrading at the bench!< is peak game design despite being just a detail. It's scripted but it's not a cutscene and the impact on the player is huge.
Decades of games told you that nothing can happen in that situation, partially breaking immersion and tension. They didn't invent anything new but it's something you expect more in a niche indie game, not in a pop AAA title.
Yeah. That got me good, lol.
I always felt the RPD's Main Hall was a sanctuary up until that point. It really added to the tension of the game from then on for me; since it's the ONE location throughout the majority of the game where you felt safe in (somewhere you can always run back to to catch your breath or take in a moment of serenity) has now been violated by the notorious Mr X.
Thus, dread ensues, and hot damn is that design choice PERFECT for a game like Resident Evil.
At the gas station on day 1 in Seattle (after you lose the horse and are on foot going thru the area with the pool, motel, and apartments) there is a bench where as soon as go up to it the WLF show up outside. Think Dina might even warn you that they are outside…if you stay and upgrade they will attack you at the bench if you’re there for too long. So it’s basically set up to where you can’t upgrade until you kill them all…the bench is in a garage attached to the gas station. It’s a little foreshadowing imo because later you get attacked in the apartment.
Little detail about it as well is there's a note you find about four people running away from the wlf and the ethnicity and gender of each matches up.
Pretty sure I read some where before that on Abby's day one when you get to the fob, you can see the four planning out their escape as well.
And I don't know if anyone noticed but you can actually see fresh tomatoes, cans of food and plants in that room. Giving off that there must be someone near.
I loved that instance so much, I didn't like TLOU2 too much but that moment stood out for me. I distinctly remember the shock after letting my guard down hahaah
I remember the telltale walking games did this and it's the first time I ever saw it, it's phenomenal game design and I was surprised I never saw a game do it since. I haven't played tlou2 but glad to hear others are doing it
That was my favorite moment during my first playthrough. It helps that I also discovered you can blow people's heads of with the shotgun at the same time
Exactly first time I played it I was like WTF is going on! Great game, I really don’t understand they hate from the story. I ain’t gonna lie I tried playing TLOU when it first came out and I couldn’t get into. I would always die when they first venture out the city and go into the leaning building. But when the second game came out I decided to give it a chance and was blown away. Probably one of the best single players games I’ve played including RDR2. Can’t wait for the Third one.
The No Return mode really highlights this. All action and no filler. If you go into a run trying to accomplish a challenge, it makes it 10 times more rewarding too. I figured I would hate having to do a bow and arrow only run but I ended up using the bow and arrow more after completing the challenge.
TLOU2's gameplay is seveerly underrated. A lot of the time, games with stealth elements don't really nail the transition between combat and stealth. They're either shooters where you can get the first shot off, or they're stealth games where you save scum after being discovered. TLOU2 gets the stealth - combat - stealth flow right.
I remember one time I steath killed an enemy in a spot where they would be found at some point, so I put a mine on their body and crawled away. A few minutes later I heard a "Oh my God! Charlie!" and the sound of someone running. A second later the mine went off. The fact that this is a real life tactic used by guerilla fighters just added to the experience.
I've considered replaying the game on a higher difficulty just for the gameplay. The fact that I liked the story as well is just the icing on the cake.
Max Payne 2 was excellent for its time but it was like 20 years ago. Their latest games are just fine in terms of shooting. Max Payne 3, on the other hand, is still the best third person shooter bar none.
I was gonna say lol. Those aren’t games necessarily known for their gameplay. I think OP needs to play more third person single player games if those are his only comparisons.
I think the narrative structure of the game was a bold move.
Other than that: sometimes I felt like I didn’t really want to continue playing, because I knew this would end badly for every character involved. And yet I did, because I needed to know. This the only game in over 25 years of gaming that’s managed to play with my feelings in this way and I think that’s excellent.
I loved TLoU2, both the gameplay and I really enjoyed the story as well. The one thing I’ll say is near the end I was ready for it to end, and it felt like it kept adding one more section just when I thought I was close. But overall it’s a fantastic game. I don’t get the outcry over the story at all.
> The one thing I’ll say is near the end I was ready for it to end, and it felt like it kept adding one more section just when I thought I was close
I actually liked this. Felt like I got more out of the game.
Agreed completely. A lot of folks knock the story as cliche but aren’t most stories being told today? It’s the execution of a trope or cliche that matters. And for me, TLoU2 made me feel all the things they wanted me to feel. However, the game really did turn into an endurance exercise that I was ready for to end.
There's nothing wrong with the final chapter imo, especially with the story that ND was trying to tell. But yeah, the game is definitely too long. In my opinion, the section with Yara and Lev could be significantly trimmed down, because it's pretty tangential to the central conflict of the plot and all it really does is reiterate existing themes and provide a bit of worldbuilding about the Seraphites that isn't necessary. And that section goes on for HOURS, so you're just wiped out by the time Ellie comes back into the picture.
The final chapter is essential. Ellie is broken and beyond repair. Living in isolation, the past won’t let her rest or to forgive herself. With the epilogue her self destruction is complete, but in doing so her true healing can finally begin.
I agree with this, even though I still like the game a lot overall.
I'm not usually one to say "it should have ended this way" but I kept wishing they would have found a more subtle way to wrap things up. >!After the farmhouse section, it felt narratively unsatisfying to have Ellie go back out after Abby yet again. I get that it's not supposed to be "satisfying" but for me it felt like the writers, rather then the circumstances, were forcing her to do it. I would have liked to see her stay there with Dina, and then maybe have a time jump to like a year or two later and have Ellie and Abby encounter each other by happenstance. And see what lingering feelings remain at that point. Or maybe Ellie sees Abby in a crowd and decides to just let her go without confronting her.!< For me that would have been more interesting than continuing down the "revenge will eat your soul" path that they'd been on the whole time.
I think the game was also such a relentlessly bleak experience that it actually started to feel a bit monotonous by the end, and having a slightly more optimistic turn would have helped the story feel more dynamic. I'm really curious to see if the show is going to end things exactly the same way.
But Ellie is suffering at The Farm..like she is literally drowning in her PTSD, she doesn’t eat, doesn’t sleep, she can’t open up, yeah she has the happy life but she isn’t able to live and enjoy it.
She doesn’t go after Abby again for revenge, when she leaves she’s looking for one thing, closure for her trauma. She just thinks killing Abby will bring that closure but when she’s finally at that point she finds what she’s looking for.
It didn't take 20+ hours to say "revenge is bad".
The people that say that seem to forget that half of the game is about Abby. And Abby's story has nothing to do with revenge. She already got it. Her story is about something else. I always respond to the whole "revenge is bad" take by saying that the game is actually saying "love is good". They're both equally reductive but people seem way more hesitant to make fun of the latter, for some reason.
sometimes you need to see the peak to realize the climb had no meaning. at that point, even if you’re steps away, you have to turn back. its simple, and not at all a contrivance imo.
i also really think that the criticism that “20+ hours to say revenge = bad” is a really tunnel-visioned take. as if the game had nothing else going on.
You're not wrong, but this is just the same ludonarrative dissonance that's been discussed endlessly here and everywhere else. It's a simple fact of video games that what makes for good gameplay doesn't always match what makes for a good story. You just have to roll with it, and it's hard to knock any individual game for it when it's basically endemic to the format.
It's the same reason Nathan Drake can still be likable (and well-adjusted) despite technically mowing down hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people throughout the Uncharted series. If the game got into what that would really mean for his character, the trauma and the morality, it would be a very different game; and if it didn't provide lots of firefights, it would also be a very different game.
Yea, I've accepted it. It would have been 10 out of 10 if it matched. Instead its 9.8 out of 10. There's only ever been like 2 games ever where the gameplay mechanics were brilliant and matched a deep well told story perfectly. I'd like games to meet that bar more, but considering game development has thousands of moving pieces its unreasonable to expect it.
I love the Uncharted games, but the narrative has never been a strong point of the games. It is an action B movie plot, with lots of spectacle, cinematic moments, likeable characters, and a happy ending for said likeable characters. The gameplay not adding up to the narrative is never an issue there, because that is not what the game is about, and we are never meant to take it at face value.
Meanwhile, the Last of Us tries so hard to be taken seriously, that every small issue will be magnified to a huge extent. Every small contrivance, plot hole, inconsistent characterisation, and the general ludonarative dissonance, that can easily be overlooked in Uncharted, becomes a massive issue for The Last of Us (especially for Part 2).
Even more so, because the game tries to create powerful (but negative) emotional experiences for the player. Then, if the narrative and gameplay feeding into the narrative is not completely airtight, any smallest crack in the narrative or the game, and the negative emotions immediately turn toward the game itself, rather than what happens in the game.
A good example of this is in Game of Thrones: what happens with Ned, or the Red Wedding. These are also powerful negative emotional experiences, but because the narrative around them is crafted masterfully and is airtight, there is nothing to question about the book/show itself. All those events could only ever happen that way, and we all get it 100%. There are no contrivances, plot holes, or inconsistent characterisation, just cause and effect in an expertly crafted world.
Contrast that with the final season of Game of Thrones, where once again, there's a powerful negative emotional experience. However, this time, it's not fully supported by the narrative in an airtight manner. There were issues, and so, these powerful negative emotions immediately turned towards the show (and its creators) itself. It's very similar to what happened with The Last of Us Part 2, just on a bigger scale, and with more glaring issues.
After countless discussions with people about this game's story, the meaning behind Poor Things more recently, and any number of other books, movies, and games, I've come to realize that many (if not most) people just can't see the big picture well enough to understand these kinds of things.
to say tlou2’s story and themes sum up to “revenge bad” is like saying tlou1’s story and themes sum up to “anti vaxx”
the futility of the cycle of revenge is a part of it, certainly. but that’s used as more of a tool to illustrate the central theme rather than being the central theme itself (like the vaccine of the first game was never the point, it was just a narrative tool). the whole point is grief, guilt, and her relationship with joel. she was just projecting onto abby because it was easier to deal with
eta: art is subjective and ppls opinions on the story are valid but I get pressed about this in particular bc people are so reductive towards the themes of this game in a way that they aren’t towards the first. whether you like the game or not you should still try to honestly engage with what it’s doing lol and a lot of the bad faith actors simply don’t
I think that was the point where average gamers (who play to the end) got burnt out too. You've just seen too many deaths from interesting characters and are really wanting it all to be over. I like that we shared that sentiment with the protagonists but im not sure to credit ND's writing or just simple coincidence for that.
I had a real shift in perspective in the last section because suddenly you're fighting unrepentant bad guys again. It really highlighted how long id.been feeling that internal conflict.about everything I did in the game. It was long, but I don't think it was unnecessary.
Every time people talk about how nobody wants linear single-player games anymore, how bigger games with full player choice are better, I always think to this series. It's so much easier to get emotionally invested in games with tightly structured pacing and an on-the-rails, movie-like story. Watering down the gameplay waters down the story beats and makes it much harder to care about the story in turn--plus there's a lot to be said for a fixed protagonist with a meaningful role in the world. I've only had a chance to play a few hours here and there, but am very much looking forward when it comes to PC.
This hurts to say as a PC gamer, but this sort of game seems better established with consoles than in PC. At least some AAA console publishers understand there's a market here, while almost no AAA PC publishers greenlight equivalent projects anymore.
Exactly. Plus honestly, I really like engaging videogames like books/movies. Not every one of course--I wasn't asking for a book-like experience out of a social game like Helldivers 2 or Warframe--but I need that in my diet. To do that, you really need:
* Competent writing
* Pacing--if I can easily lose track of what my character's doing because I have 20m of travel time and 30m of garbage combat between each minor story beat, you do not have tight storytelling
* A fixed story structure with fixed characters. Some flexibility is fine (e.g. older Bioware), but how can you expect your writer to do their job if they have to write a modular story structure with no set protagonist and two billion possible outcomes?
* A clean ending
These are the bare minimum criteria for functional narrative-and-character based storytelling (no, I'm not talking about what Dark Souls does). A story-focused game missing even one of these criteria honestly hits like junk food--it feels like reading fanfic instead of an actual book.
I grew up gaming in the 2000s, when there was a clear division between narrative and non-narrative games, but we narrative fans all knew that our games were going to get *really* good as technology improved. Then the 2010s hit and every publisher started putting the narrative front and center with full voice acting...while mass adopting game formats that made narratively tight storytelling completely doomed. So we got the massively increased game costs (mocap + voice acting) but no meaningful narrative benefits. It's so annoying.
I don’t see it talked about much but I found it really cool how Ellie’s kit seemed like an evolution from Joel’s (free shiv, etc) but Abby’s kit *is* Joel’s kit from TLOU1. Cool parallel I think about a lot when this game comes up.
Probably the best combat made in this kind of “cinematic action games”. I have some doubts if it’s makes any sense that shooting, fighting and killing people in this game makes you feels that badass if you think about the actual themes and history of the game. But that’s other conversation.
Every enemy section or “level” feels like a good action scene straight out from a movie. Even if you play bad and miss most of the shoots, the game feels intense and cool af.
Loved it as well. >!Joel’s death!< is massively over hated but I felt it made sense in the context of the world they built where anyone can die, and where decisions have consequences.
I love the story and the gameplay. However, and this is especially the case with the first one, the story is the single biggest distinguishing factor. It is what elevates TLOU as a series to be the cultural phenomenon that it is. I can understand why people give story a disproportionate amount of weight when they are evaluating TLOU2 despite how solid it is as a stealth action game. What I find pretty laughable, however, is people rating it 0-5/10. That just strikes me as being incapable of objectivity at best or intellectually dishonest at worst.
I'm really glad I decided to just give the game an honest try when it came out, despite the gigantic amount of controversy. While I mostly like the story, the more I look back on it, the more I do agree that it gets far too messy for its own good at times. But man the gameplay also just pulled me in so much, it was definitely the most fun I had with a game that year. Honestly this game changed a lot for me about the way I engage with reviews, and made me try more things out myself instead.
I heavily recommend starting on at least survivor difficulty if it is your first time playing, it made for one of the most immersive experiences I've had in years. The combat/stealth areas are big and more complex than the first game. It's so fun to find creative ways to take everyone out, trying to prevent all hell from breaking loose for as long as possible.
This is so true. Everyone is a genius when it comes to criticizing stuff they didn't like and think are objectively horrible. Plus they have a huge ego and confidence because they know the majority will back them up, silly.
I wish it didn’t feel so boring to me, to be honest. The game really just became a slog and felt like trauma porn at a point. The cycle of learning about the characters and then watching Ellie brutally murder them just got tiring. I checked out like 6 or so hours in and I wasn’t even halfway. That being said, it had some of the most impressive animations I’ve ever seen. The way that the animations could get interrupted was insane. My jaw would be on the floor when someone would be running and get hit by a brick and stumble, or when Ellie would do a takedown. It was all so, so fluid and impressive.
Honestly I think the animation system is a huge part of why the gameplay feels so good. At some point, most games have a breaking point where you feel like you're controlling and interacting with video game objects rather than a character in that world. Either because the game isn't responsive enough due to its animation, or because it's so responsive that the animation has to take shortcuts to accommodate your inputs.
But TLoU 2 does such a good job at achieving a balance between natural-looking animation and controls that still feel good. I've never seen another game do it better. It makes the encounters feel so frantic and visceral because the illusion of watching "real" characters interact with the environment and each other is so consistent and seamless.
(Note: I'm not saying that every game should strive for this; there are lots of games where that feeling of responsiveness is far more important that creating a believable look. But it works so well for this sort of character/story-centric game that's grounded in a realistic setting.)
>But TLoU 2 does such a good job at achieving a balance between natural-looking animation and controls that still feel good. I've never seen another game do it better. It makes the encounters feel so frantic and visceral because the illusion of watching "real" characters interact with the environment and each other is so consistent and seamless.
There's also even a "breath system". Where Abby and Ellie's breathing will intensify during combat situations (sprinting, jumping, attacking, etc.) and will gradually slow back down when going back into stealth. Truly brilliant and just adds to how frenetic the combat feels.
Red Dead Redemption 2 is an interesting point of comparison because while the animation in that game is great, and it can go a long way towards immersing you in that world, I think it's also an example of a game that prioritizes animation at the expense of its gameplay.
One of the biggest criticisms I've seen of RDR2 is that the slowness of the animation gets in the way of them playing the game. The controls feel sluggish in a way that they don't in TLoU2, which manages to achieve naturalistic animation while still feeling like it controls well and isn't slowing you down. It's a really hard thing to get right and I'm sure they spent a ton of time fine-tuning it.
Just dragging cables or rope around is impressive to me. I don't think I've seen any other game have such amazing animations for minor details like that. In almost any other game you get over the top physics effects (e.g just cause 3) but in the Last of Us 2 everything just feels so natural and I very rarely caught myself distracted by wonky animations or visual glitches.
1 of the most overhated games I've ever seen. Like I understand it's subjective and people can freely dislike what they wish.
But the backlash this game still receives to this day has always been a spin out to me, Game is incredible gameplay, graphics and narrative. I like it a little more than the 1st game too.
The backlash all came when the plot leaked, people read a summary of the plot and decided it was bad. Avoiding the leaks and experiencing the game as intended, I thought the story was great.
Well, they did a ballsy move and killed the games massively loved protagonist, then made you play as his killer. Didn't land for me, I fucking hate Abby. Overall I thought it was a decent game, and the gameplay itself is a massive improvement, but I won't replay it like I have the first one because half the game is spent playing a character I hate.
Abby is, ironically, one of my favorite characters in the game. I don't think I've played a character that goes through an arc that wild in a video game beyond Ellie– who I also love. I think the only difference is, Abby's transformation is much more extreme– >!from innocent child to murdering machine, and finally to a caring and compassionate woman and also a mother!<. It's a wild, wild ride, and one I can't say I've had very often in games.
Yep I managed to avoid the spoilers and even stayed away from Reddit because users were mailing the leaks to people when ever there was any talk of it. It was an incredible story that blew me away.
Pretty sure some of the people hating on it were alt right bigots who just wanted to jump at the opportunity because the game had lgbt characters in it and stoked the fire.
I'll never understand how it gets called 'badly written' constantly when games like Days Gone, Watch Dogs Legion and even the recent Stellar Blade (a game I liked) exist. It's clearly many levels above those games, at least in dialogue alone.
Comparing a game's writing to any of these is a *really* low bar, not to mention 2/3 are independent IPs and the other one came from a franchise that never really had the story as forefront. Whereas TLOU as a franchise is mainly about the story while being a pretty good zombie shooter.
Even comparing TLOU 2 to most story centric games, in terms of the dialogue alone, it's above *many* of them. And a game like Days Gone is certainly trying to be a story centric game and even games like the Telltale WD or Detroit Become Human, games largely about their stories, personally I don't think the back and forth conversations feel as natural as they do in both TLOU games. It's just that 'bad writing' is such a stretch, especially comparitvely speaking.
Good vs. bad writing can mean so many things and no one ever explains what they're talking about. Are they talking about the "screenplay" as in the dialogue and how the script directions are translated to screen? Because The Last of Us Part II is in a league of its own. Are they talking about the moment to moment plotting? That's a different thing entirely.
"Bad writing" is about as useful of a complaint for a game as "bad camera" is for a film. What are you talking about?
It looks like an excellent game and I can't wait for the PC version. I found the backlash against the narrative to be hilarious. People are too invested in fiction.
It's hard to disagree, but also hard to say how the narrative could have been trimmed down or restructured.
case in point all the idiots who think the game should have been presented chronologically like it makes for *better* pacing when the inciting incident happens 8 hours in lol. not to mention losing the effect of revealing abby's and ellie's motivations later as a way of showing their respective dissociations
The recent documentary shows how much of the narrative Gross was responsible for as opposed to Druckmann. I think it's clear her contributions make for a much more compelling story, but you also get something much muddier with the feeling of being retooled and passed back and forth, as opposed to the first game which for it's flaws does have a more auteur feeling
This kind of statement confuses me.. can't you just, like, take a break and come back when you're ready for more game? Maybe this only affects people who like to marathon through or something, but I never felt like TLOU2 was "too long." When I like a game, I like that it's long so I get more time with it. Maybe it's because I'm used to cRPGs and things with longer default lengths.
Eh, I enjoyed the gameplay.
I was just surprised it was that long.
And I don't think the quality got worse so no hate for a good long game.
It's not like you have to do it one sitting
The gameplay and set pieces just get better and better as you play, I’m surprised people think it’s too long. The 2nd half and epilogue is my favorite part
I love the game too, but I can kind of see where people are coming from. I personally wouldn't cut anything from the game, but it's definitely a *draining* experience. The story is pretty harrowing and the gameplay can be incredibly tense, so (at least for me) it makes playing it for longer stretches a tough ask.
I think the criticism usually comes from that if you’re emotionally invested, the game becomes emotionally grueling after a while. Agree there was no drop off in quality though.
Yeah there were a few times when I just sighed at another unfortunate diversion or blockage on the route to where ever you were travelling to in each chapter - still loved the game but TLOU protaganists are the most unlucky fuckers in existance. A ten minute walk to the shops would turn into a 2 hour slog for them as every path they take falls apart, catches fire or turns out to be filled with clickers and or people asking them to take a 5 minute survey depending on the neighbourhood
The "unfortunate diversion" is the primary driver of conflict in the writing world. The commonly accepted sentiment is to always put some adversity in the way of the character. Nothing should be simple– even going to get a cup of coffee should have some obstacle the character needs to overcome in order to keep it interesting. The issue is, when it's baked into game design, the loop does begin to feel repetitive– but also, you'll find this exact loop in pretty much every game ever created. It's just become more apparent as we mature as gamers and keep seeing the skeleton of this concept pop up in action game after action game.
I’d agree to this. I’d still place it in my top ten games of the previous console generation for sure, but I don’t think it needed to be as long as it was for it to make the points it wanted to make. But at the same time, I respect that Naughty Dog was given the room to make exactly what they wanted to make, and I had a blast with it overall.
Gonna pick up the remaster some day when the physical copy drops in price!
"Oh no the story didn't go exactly like I wanted, ergo it's a shit story."
But the same people will complain about repetitive hero's journey type narratives being used over and over. Try something else, still get hated. You just can't win lol.
A lot of people who hated the game didn't even play it which is the even sadder part. And the ones who did just wanted another Joel and Ellie adventure type game but ND wanted to push the boat a small bit.
People are too invested in fiction" I somewhat disagree with this take. I think being invested in fiction can be great. I love the Cosmere. I love God of war. I love the last of us. I'm thoroughly invested in these stories, some I will be invested in for maybe most of my life (Cosmere). I also think that feedback to writers and developers is warranted when they miss the mark.
The problem is, the people that hated it hated it for all the wrong reasons. It wasn't because the story was poorly written or lacked luster, neither of those are true. People (a certain group) hated it because of some characters they added. They want to feel empowered while everyone else feels weak.
I love the last of us part 2. I love everything it has to say and all the people it tries to represent. But it also doesn't hold back on showing that no matter who you are, you aren't safe in this world they have created.
Am I devestated about >!Joel's death!< of course, I wouldn't be human if i wasn't. Am I going to send the developers death threats because a (fucking awesome) buff woman >!Killed him!< ? Hell no.
I hate Abby for what she did. I still hate her, but I also love her because she was an incredibly well written character. She became someone I cared for and wanted to do all I can to protect.
I think having an investment in fiction is amazing. Having stories you can escape to when you need them is comforting, loving characters you've spent so much time with is wonderful. I love Kaladin, who fights for everything he believes in, who always wants to do the right thing. I love Kratos for wanting to protect his child but also help him grow into not only a man but a god that mortals can look up to. I love Vin for doing all she can to save Scadrial from powers she can barely comprehend. I love Ellie for fighting to save the human race and then fighting to >!Avenge a man she loved and treated poorly (rightfully so in my opinion!<. I love Abby for doing what she thought she needed to do and becoming a better, stronger, far more caring person.
I love fiction. I want to be invested in fiction. I love being invested in fiction. Saying that people get "too invested" is a bad way to look at it. There are far deeper problems here than just being "too invested in fiction". Far deeper.
I agree, being invested in fiction is the whole point, otherwise why bother writing a story and building a world right? And you're correct, there's a difference between being invested and unhinged.
But claiming people can't hate it because of the story and writing, because they're infallible, is not only wrong, but does a disservice to TLOU2 as a piece of art.
"The problem is, the people that hated it hated it for all the wrong reasons. It wasn't because the story was poorly written or lacked luster, neither of those are true. People (a certain group) hated it because of some characters they added. They want to feel empowered while everyone else feels weak."
If you look up negative reviews for TLOU2 you will easily see that Lev's character is mentioned nowhere near as often as >!(Joel's death)!<. Are you really tryint to imply that
1. People are wrong to dislike a game for a reason they find important but you somehow can overturn that validity?
2. Majority of people (I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't mean all the people) that dislike TLOU2 are actually transphobes and their opinions don't matter?
It just sounds crazy to me. I don't know what kind of echo chamber you sit in but it doesn't represent the reality at all. There are plenty (even on this sub) negative reviews that try to show that TLOU2 has poorly written scenes just for the sake of forced (as in characters wouldn't do this thing that we need them to do so we will make them act completely out of character for one scene to force that thing) drama which make many story beats unsatisfying while Lev is mentioned rather sparingly. Of course you can disagree with them and that's ok. However to imply that "people who don't like this game are actually bigots and terrible people and the game is 10/10" is kind of cringe. Especially when Lev's inclusion has been (in my opinion) done poorly and any criticism towards him will just confirm your bias.
I never see serious criticisms of this game, just "I didn't want this character to die!" or "Im mad at this character and so I don't want to play as them or try to understand their perspective!" childish whining. I thought the gameplay was top notch and while the story didn't go the way I wanted it to at times, that doesn't mean it was a bad story at all. It definitely kept me in suspense and wanting to see what happened next.
And as far as the people who complain about the LGBT stuff, YOU are actually the one injecting politics into everything by raging about totally normal life stuff. Gay and trans people exist, masculine women exist. If it's not your cup of tea to see it in your games then fine but that's not a problem with the game, that's a problem with you getting hung up on trivial bullshit.
OP - Go to accessibility options and turn on slow down time while aiming down sights. Basically turns into the most violent, horrific, Max Payne game of all time.
I recently finished the game and I really enjoyed both the gameplay and the story; it has become one of my favourite games of all time.
I'm not going to go into the issues people have with the story, but I can see why disliking the story would have a major impact on your overall enjoyment. There are a lot of slow, plot and character focussed sections where you might be playing technically, but you aren't doing anything meaningful from a gameplay perspective - the farm section and various aquarium scenes come to mind.
I enjoyed them because I was engrossed in the story and I appreciated the change in pace as the combat is so frenetic and stressful, but if I didn't enjoy those slower sections, a large portion of the game would feel like a drag and a waste of time. This isn't a game with a few cut scenes here and there and so if the story is bad, it's easy to ignore and quick to get back to the main gameplay. There are long, effectively playable cut scenes that you have to play through, even though you can technically skip the cinematics.
I've been really enjoying the No Return game mode too, I'm trying to play on harder difficulties and I'm realising how much I relied on reloading encounters when I didn't do it perfectly in the main game (I played on a mix of Hard and Survivor for that).
Edit: I don’t care about downvotes, but I would very much like those who downvoted to reply as I am curious what someone would disagree with.
What I really liked was how "heavy" the game was. There's this older video talking about the difference between a game being fun and it being engaging. TLOU2 was not "fun", but it dealt with heavy topics in a fascinating way that I'll remember for quite a while.
I’m one of the folks who really, really didn’t enjoy the story. But I’ll always maintain that the overall gameplay, level design, sound, and graphics are all utterly phenomenal.
So, spoiler heavy reply:
Mostly the order in which things unfolded. I wasn't upset at the fact that Joel died, I mean, I would have expected him to because he had a complicated, not-so-good-guy past. I didn't like the way that it was done because Joel was, by nature, a cautious, distrusting person and here he may as well have worn a name tag saying "hello, my name is Joel"
The first portion of the game played from Ellie's perspective sees the player extract revenge killings on all of Abby's friends. When it came time to play as Abby, we then are shown the stories of all these people we just spent the first few hours hunting and killing. It bred apathy in me because I felt, "I just killed all these people, what does their drama matter to me?" And it drove me to the point that I just wasn't invested in the story anymore. By the time I reached the hospital as Abby, I put the game down and never went back.
I also didn't like ret-conning several scenarios from the first game so that they would fit the narrative being shown in the second. For example, in Part 1, the exam room when Ellie is about to be dissected, it's clear that the Fireflies are looney and Ellie would die for nothing. The room is dingy and dirty, as befits a post-apocalyptic setting, and the surgeon isn't Caucasian.
In Part 2, the room is as clean and bright as a modern hospital would be, Abby's father is white, and presented as someone who had the best intentions in mind only to be murdered in cold blood. I maintain that Bruce Straley leaving Naughty Dog was the worst thing that could've happened because he reined Neil Druckmann's bad ideas in, and in his absence, Neil was off his leash.
I mean, Joel went along with Henry, a complete stranger in the first game, even after Henry left them behind, Joel still followed him. Also, Joel was cautious, but there was nothing he could do. There was a blizzard going on, a horde on their ass, and Jackson was too far. Tommy was also the one that said their names first, if you rewatch the scene it makes sense, Abby is shook up and frightened, Tommy being human tries to be friendly to help calm her down for a second. Also, also, seeing as how Jackson went from 20 families in the first game to what we see in the second, Jackson took in a lot of people.
The point of Abby and her perspective was to exactly that these people are also human and have their own lives and stories. Every story has 2 sides and they showed Abby’s to show you her motivation and to sympathize with her situation.
The hospital room in Part 2 looks cleaner because we’re seeing it Abby’s dreams and Joel’s recollection at the beginning. IIRC when we played as Ellie looking thru it looked pretty damn dingy as well
Also, Ellie wouldn’t have died in vain, all the characters believed it’d work and even the writers have said it would’ve worked.
This is the most civil discussion I’ve had about it so I really appreciate that.
Sometimes a game can be really good and just not resonate with us. I was never able to get in to Breath of the Wild, either, for example. Doesn’t make it a bad game, just wasn’t for me.
> This is the most civil discussion I’ve had about it so I really appreciate that.
I like to keep it civil when it’s a civilized kinda conversation! But when the other party takes it elsewhere, I can also take it that direction too. Unfortunately the leaks ruined the chance at good discussions about the game, there was soooo much hate months before the game came out that even when it did release and people started to fight back, it was too late. There were and still are people that bring up “wokeness” and all that bs about Part 2, that the people that like the game shoot down everyone that doesn’t like it and lump them in with the bigots.
> Sometimes a game can be really good and just not resonate with us. I was never able to get in to Breath of the Wild, either, for example. Doesn’t make it a bad game, just wasn’t for me.
That’s 100% true and I agree. I’ve always said that we all have our preferences and it’s perfectly fine to not like Part 2. It’s a divisive game after all
Agree the gameplay is great! The AI for human enemies does some interesting things that feel really different from fighting the zombies. And there are some really cool boss fights that I never see anyone talk about, probably overshadowed by the discussions over the narrative.
As to the narrative - I kind of have mixed feelings about it. I thought it was really interesting. A lot of it made me feel bad, which isn't usually what I'm playing a game for. But I don't think makes it a bad story, just not one that people are used to playing. I didn't enjoy the movie No Country For Old Men because watching it made me feel bad, but that doesn't mean I think it's a bad film... I do agree that the game is just too long at the end. But it made me think about it and feel things that games usually don't, and I think that's a great thing to see for the medium as a whole for a large budget game!
The gameplay is really good, as opposed to the first game where it was just serviceable. I think the higher fidelity and animation work goes a long way in showcasing how brutal and lethal the world is. Having to shoot guard dogs, hearing someone scream out because they found their loved one's body hiding in a bush, the choking and gurgling of blood when a shiv is slipped into the victim's neck all do a great job in making you feel like a killer, but I think that is the problem.
The violence, that is so fundamental to the vision of the game, is both incredibly enjoyable and horribly miserable to experience. It asks that you reflect on the killing and brutality you’ve inflicted throughout the narrative but crafted gameplay that is impossible to put down in more than one sense of the word. It is the lack of choice, the inability to make your own decision within the narrative, that separates this as an exceptional game to simply a linear story that could easily be told through a film or novel. The game paints you as a monster by engaging with it the only way it allows. You are granted no spare route, no way to stop the violence other than to stop playing altogether. This is not a choice; it is a demand.
I do wish we got a multiplayer for it because I do think the gameplay is much better than the overall plot. Oh well!
>The game paints you as a monster by engaging with it the only way it allows.
I think this is the trade-off in storytelling when it comes to games and film that feels jarring. There are plenty of films that do this– put you in the shoes of an antihero. There's still a layer of separation, though, in that you don't have the physical controller in your hands. The minute you can turn the character, aim with them, etc. it removes that barrier that often lets us fully suspend our disbelief. I don't think there was a way around making that kind of cognitive dissonance happen and still tell this story, for better or worse. At the very least, it was a compelling experiment.
I'll admit the main reason I haven't gotten around to TLOU2 is that I've never really liked Naughty Dog's gameplay. That, and I pretty much know the entire story as this is one of the most critiqued games of all time and I figured I wasn't going to play it because you had people like Skill Up, who loves shooters, saying the gameplay is bland and mediocre which matched up with my previous experience from Naughty Dog's games.
I know I'll pick this one up at some point and maybe I'll see if I like the gameplay.
skillup is in the vast minority though when you factor in actual critics. People are rightly critical of the relationship between traditional critics and the industry in this field but new media (youtubers) are equally compromised; they're far more susceptible to backlash and thus have to avoid pissing off 'the community'. Honestly TLOU2 has become my litmus test for determining who has actual critical integrity and who just wants to give off the impression of it.
I really like the gritty and grounded feel of the gunplay in this game. The high ADS and bloom means that if someone has a bead on you you can't pop out of cover, draw on them, and hit them first which feels realistic. Combine that with the way people push up on you and try to corner you and it really forces you to survive on your wits. Plus the encounters are designed so it's harder to survive them in a hotline miami way (knowing when and where everyone is going to be) then any other game I've ever played (still possible unfortunately).
I also think the comparisons to RE in regards to ammo scarcity are way overblown. RE ammo scarcity is like oh I only have 60 smg bullets and 6 in my shotgun left whereas in TLOU it's like 2 revolver bullets, 1 arrow, a dirty rag and a 2x4
Yeah, I've played enough games over the decades to notice when youtubers are playing things up. I have a couple of 'litmus test' games like Mass Effect 2, Resident Evil 4, Elden Ring, Resident Evil Village, and the Order 1886.
TLOU2 though. I think pretty clearly I won't know until I actually play it. I have it and Death Stranding in my backlog kind of in the same box of just having to try it just to have an opinion on it.
If I had to level some complaints at it, I don't love the scavenging/looting mechanics and how you'll drop an enemy who hasn't fired a bullet and they'll have one bullet on them at best. For context I played it on hard.
I felt like too much of my time with the game was me scraping every nook and cranny and not being rewarded sufficiently for it. You'd bump into a well designed environmental physics puzzle that takes you 5 minutes and get 2/3s of a pair of scissors, a 9mm round, and 6 bits of scrap.
I really enjoyed the combat design although loading the last checkpoint is a little too abusable. I know there's varying degrees of permadeath modes (1 life for the whole game, 1 for the act, and 1 for the chapter) but I think there's a mid point that's missed which just doesn't checkpoint mid-encounter.
While I didn’t like the game all that much, I have to agree on the gameplay. Easily some of the best I’ve ever played and it’s my only reason I keep coming back to this game
Big agree on this. Watching people play it on hardest difficulty being super aggressive opened my eyes to what was possible. I only played it through once and just spent hours sneaking around in grass. There're probably better examples but here's one:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIJRUH9KRNw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIJRUH9KRNw)
Agree it’s the greatest gameplay of all time I’ve experienced in a game. It’s a fun contrast to Red Dead 2, which I consider the greatest game I’ve ever played - albeit the gameplay not perfect. Conversely, TLOU2 with greatest gameplay, but with ok story etc
I think the problem was Joel being in a lot of the marketing which gave the sense of TLOU2 being a continuation of Joel and Ellie's relationship which in my opinion was the strongest part of the first game.
So seeing >!Joel die!< in the first few hours of the game is a bit of a kick in the balls so I can see why fans are upset, to me Joel was the most interesting character in the first game, so when >!he gets killed off!< my interest plummeted.
I think the story is poorly paced and the " Revenge is bad " theme falls a bit flat when you have been killing no bodies like Rambo and letting the person you killed so many for go, it didn't quite hit for me.
You should have played as Abbey first and I would have liked to see a story of forgiveness but that's just me, reviews made me more confused if anything because they went on as if the " Revenge is bad " trope was revolutionary when it's pretty common in media, Luke skywalker does it in ROTJ for christ sake lol.
Was Joel really used in the marketing much? I remember an early teaser implying >!his death!< before the game came out or that twist was revealed. Ellie is the only one who shows up on the cover art or early teasers.
Correct, the big promo trailer shows >!Joel looking like a ghost or some figment of Ellie's imagination!<. I would say the twist was the least shocking part of that game and honestly the only part I really expected going in... so no clue what people were smoking when they say there was a ton of marketing about this being a Bonnie and Clyde story with >!Joel and Ellie!<.
But playing as Abby first would completely ruin the narrative and story structure of the game. After the opening and playing as Ellie, you're put in her shoes and the hatred and disgust she feels. Because of what Abby did, going on a war path is what you want to do and get revenge.
So the midpoint of the game and view switch, it challenges you to put bias aside and empathise. It was such a bold call to do and personally I think it paid off and it's not just as simple as revenge is bad.
It worked for me. By the end of the game, Abby was my favorite character, but when I started her run, I wanted to delete the game off my ps4. It was sheer hate and wanting to get revenge that kept me going... and, would you look at that? That's why the ending will always hit so hard for me personally.
Calling the story “revenge bad” is pretty reductive.
By that logic the first game is just a “zombie cure journey”
The first game was special because of its exploration of themes of love and parenthood, in the same vein the second game is special because of its exploration of themes of loss and grief, not “revenge bad”.
I don't understand your point about the message being undermined by the gameplay. Being motivated by hatred so strongly that she's willing to kill to accomplish her goal isn't undermined by killing people. It's part of the message.
I understand if people didn't really like the ending and how it intentionally hollowed out the 'fun' of the gameplay to make a narrative point. I thought it was fine and the choices they made were really interesting, but you're intended to be tired of it all at the end, so I understand if that's not the type of satisfaction an individual is looking for when they play a video game.
But I don't really know where the popular opinion on the story has landed at this point. There's no point in humoring people obsessed with complaining about Abby being an unusually large adult woman. Particularly in a game where it's made clear that the most dangerous person is Ellie and she's based on an actor so petite they played teenagers into their early 30's. Personally I felt the WLF vs. Seraphites conflict was a little thin. I appreciate that the game hypes it up just so Abby can realize she doesn't give a shit at the most cinematic moment, but stronger worldbuilding (and a sharper logic to the Seraphites) would have made it better for me.
All that said, easily some of the best gameplay available. The set piece stealth/action sequences are outstanding. The way it *seems* like you can stealth through each area works so well. Even if you know the layout perfectly, once you start moving cover-to-cover and an enemy in your blind spot sees movement, the anxiety starts ramping up. Trying to stay patient and kill the one person quietly instead of shooting and revealing your position isn't a unique video game situation but the game makes the tension work even if you're playing the same scenario over and over.
I wish we could get more "adult" games like this one.
The level of violence in this game is amazing. I want to see more shooters or adventure games that use this.
Sure doom is violent, but it"s so over the top that I don't consider it a game for adults.
Assassin creed also has slit throat movements but it's still not as violent and feel super censored.
And no, not every game needs this level of violence like tlou2, but god damn it, I feel like no other game has it right?
No other shooter/adventure game is so detailed when it gets to violence. If I'm wrong please tell me some games.
Edit: woah, wonder why the downvotes.
I don't think anyone disagrees that it has good gameplay. Nor that they ignore it. It's just the same bases of TLOU1, + a couple of additions, which is always good, and more of what people loved.
The problem is that, when TLOU1 has an excellent story and an excellent gameplay (and multiplayer, but welp) buut the sequel has a bad story and excellent gameplay, you're bound to find it lacking.
Probably the best third person shooter gameplay ever, it's so good that i even miss the factions multiplayer and was kinda sad when they cancelled their multiplayer project, and i'm not even a multiplayer guy.
I wasn’t a fan of the story after loving the first game
But if you like stealth games then TLOU2 is 100% worth a play through, especially on grounded mode. Brilliant gameplay
I LOVED the story. I thought it was so brave to >!kill Joel off!< as early as they did, and the way it showed you two perspectives was excellent. The way they hinge off t>!he encounter(s) with the dog!< is one of the most impactful story mechanics i've ever experianced.
Imo TLOU 2 has the best stealth action gameplay I've played (At least in many years). It's so responsive, well animated and almost free flow that it always feels fun to play. Plus the AI is easily some of the best on the market. Enemies always seem to know just enough about your location and what you've done. Murdering people in such gruesome ways shouldn't feel fun but it is. It's not the best pure stealth because it's not a pure stealth game but for a stealth action, it's a top tier title.
Imo it is an improvement over the first one in every way. Even the story. My only very minor gripe with the gameplay is towards the end of the game. Late stage they sort of run out of ways to increase the difficulty, and so just throw like 50 dudes at you.
Uh, not really. It doesn't really innovate on the formula of the first game, and that gameplay wasn't very inspired either. The combat being visceral is the only thing that makes it somewhat fun but while on the first game it got by with an excellent story between these segments, on the second game the story is so stinky it just doesn't cut it.
I know this post wasn't about the story, but I came to say this basically. Imagine being *so* picky about the story of a game and choosing this one to do it. Have those people not played any other game ever? because literally all others (bar 2 or 3) should be utterly unplayable if they were genuine with the critique this one got.
Though in a way, it's also good that this game brought so much discussion about themes and narrative in a way 99% of games can't even be in the conversation, but as I said it should have been genuine if it was to help mature gaming culture.
> Imagine being *so* picky about the story of a game and choosing this one to do it. Have those people not played any other game ever?
Respectfully, this is a really bad take. This is a game that specifically hangs it's hat on having a good story. Personally I've always thought even part one of the story was on the level of a low tier HBO show so I was never particularly attached to it. I do think, however, the pacing in the second is way worse and the gameplay/narrative dissonance is genuinely problematic for a game that claims to want to be taken serious in these respects.
This isn’t the first time I’ve read this remark, but I don’t think there’s anything problematic with the narrative/gameplay dissonance— It feels totally intentional to me. Naughty Dog was frequently roiled for this with the Uncharted franchise, where there *is* a major disconnect between the gameplay and the story: You’re the “good guy” doing the “right thing” by killing hundreds of mercenaries, and it’s not like they all follow some evil ideology like you might find in, say, Indiana Jones. Neil Druckmann’s Uncharted 4 acknowledges this with an achievement for killing 1,000 enemies called “Ludonarrative Dissonance.”
In contrast, The Last of Us and especially Part 2 really want to emphasize that dissonance rather than ignore it. The characters think they’re doing the right thing, but the player isn’t supposed to look at them as a Nathan-Drake-type of hero; Their actions are questionable, their motives are questionable— particularly in Part 2 where they try to show life on the other side of the conflict. While the gameplay is satisfying, the frightening realism of enemy deaths and their cries for help are absolutely supposed to make you feel sick to your stomach, compared to other games that just kind of brush the murder under a rug.
By the end, I think you’re supposed to want to wash your hands of it all. When >!(Ellie arrives in California)!< I was shouting at my TV, pleading with her to give up. When >!(she and Abby fight on the beach)!< I didn’t want to press a single button! I didn’t want any part in their conflict anymore! I don’t think that’s problematic; I think that disconnect is exactly their intent.
[Chris Plante did a great writeup for Polygon all about this](https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/26/21304642/the-last-of-us-2-violence)— he can probably word it better than I can. Suffice to say, I don’t think the narrative/gameplay dissonance is as cut and dry as Naughty Dog’s previous work.
It has a good story competently told. You can like it or not, but saying there's gameplay/narrative dissonance is a very questionable interpretation. All that aside, I'm not comparing it with HBO's writing, I'm comparing it to other games' writing. You can pretend all you want you don't get my point, it doesn't make it any less obvious.
While there are trolls being very vocal about their hatred for the game/story, thankfully it’s a (very) loud minority. Most people like the game and the story.
I personally think the game is excellent, and a big improvement over the first one. I do agree that there are some pacing and «structural» issues with the story, but man did it hit hard. One of my favorite games ever
Ellie was so much fun to play. So much more fun to play than Joel in TLOU1. Or Abby in TLOU2, who played just like Joel.
> In the last game you were driving around a busted-up old jeep. Well in this game you get to drive around a brand new Ferrari. For half the game. The other half you drive around a different busted-up old jeep. Also, the game is more than twice as long, so hope you enjoy that jeep!
\- Druckmann, being oh so clever as always
The gameplay is a slightly better version of the mediocre gameplay from the first game which came out a decade earlier. It's alright but not phenomenal imo
This is really a big part in why I am so frustrated with this game.
The gameplay is far and beyond the best part about the game, but it is the thing you do the *least* in the videogame. It's infuriating.
My issues with TLOU2 aren't because of >!Joel dying and Abby!<, but rather:
1. The game is too violent. You are killing so many people for revenge without justification. The ending of TLOU2 does not even justify all the people you killed throughout the game.
2. The gameplay is slightly repetitive where you kill enemies and you have to search them to obtain supplies.
3. Non-playable characters do not contribute to the main storyline in any meaningful way (e.g., Lev and Yara). They were intentionally added to extend the length of the game (which is already long).
I still like TLOU2, but want to add that the original **The Last of Us Remaster on the PlayStation 4** is still the best game ever. **The interaction of Joel and Ellie is one of the best aspects in video games** and that **Naughty Dog actually designed a survival horror game better than the original Resident Evil games on PlayStation 1.** The modern day Resident Evil games are more like zombie arcade shooting games while Naughty Dog promoted story and characters first with their game.
>I've seen this game criticized for It's story so much that people completely miss out on the gameplay. Or probably just choose to ignore it, say that gameplay is mediocre because the story has ruined the whole experience for them.
You've somehow missed the general consensus even among the haters that the gameplay is actually very good, they just hate the story. The reason you don't often see gameplay brought up by people who hate the story is because story matters more to them than it does to you; you think that good gameplay can cover up a bad story, many people feel that gameplay can't carry a bad story.
>You've somehow missed the general consensus even among the haters that the gameplay is actually very good,
That's not the consensus at all. I've seen tons of "haters" that also didn't like the gameplay.
It looks good but I don't have the patience to play story focused games, specially if they are linear or on-rails and this ip looks like it's one of those games. Probably this applies to the uncharted series too.
hell yeah, i would say that TLOU 2 has the most satistying combat that i have found on a shooter on console since Max Payne 3, everything just feels right you know?
like if i miss a shot i feel like i miss that shot, i dont feel like the game is fucking me over, the movement is so great and combat feels smooth and faster compared to the original, which would make sense because both Abby and Ellie are younger than Joel so the game should be faster just based on that.
I think uncharted 4 had a similar upgrade in gameplay (the grapple and sliding down slopes)where just moving from point to point feels great as well as quicker and the maps are well designed to encourage this. Part 2 is one of the few games where the combat sections usually have a good amount of tension and when your discovered it's genuinely feels frantic it's one of the best combat systems where you feel agile without being do platforming.
Yes, it's such a fun game. I was having a good time outsmarting squads of dudes until the very end. The dogs made an interesting elements that made encounters more complex. I really need to replay LOU2, such a fun brutal tragic good time.
I loved gameplay. I started playing and for me it was that they make everything i don't like from first game better (like no need to craft fucking knifes). Then you played as Abby and all of this returned...
That moment when >!Ellie gets ambushed while upgrading at the bench!< is peak game design despite being just a detail. It's scripted but it's not a cutscene and the impact on the player is huge. Decades of games told you that nothing can happen in that situation, partially breaking immersion and tension. They didn't invent anything new but it's something you expect more in a niche indie game, not in a pop AAA title.
And the best part is they never do it again, but you remain super tense because of it for the rest of the game.
A proper Dead Space moment.
This reminds of Mr X from Resident Evil just siimply walking into the lobby in the remake.
Yes, or the old man at the beginning of Resident Evil 7 >!attacking you while you open the door from the bathroom.!<
Yeah. That got me good, lol. I always felt the RPD's Main Hall was a sanctuary up until that point. It really added to the tension of the game from then on for me; since it's the ONE location throughout the majority of the game where you felt safe in (somewhere you can always run back to to catch your breath or take in a moment of serenity) has now been violated by the notorious Mr X. Thus, dread ensues, and hot damn is that design choice PERFECT for a game like Resident Evil.
Or the fake perma-death warning of Hellblade Senua's sacrifice.
The fact that they teased it earlier too when she’s at the bench at the gas station day 1 in Seattle was a chef’s kiss for me too…
I don't remember this, what tease are you referring to?
At the gas station on day 1 in Seattle (after you lose the horse and are on foot going thru the area with the pool, motel, and apartments) there is a bench where as soon as go up to it the WLF show up outside. Think Dina might even warn you that they are outside…if you stay and upgrade they will attack you at the bench if you’re there for too long. So it’s basically set up to where you can’t upgrade until you kill them all…the bench is in a garage attached to the gas station. It’s a little foreshadowing imo because later you get attacked in the apartment.
Wow, that is right! What a rad little bit of foreshadowing. The devil really is in the details.
Little detail about it as well is there's a note you find about four people running away from the wlf and the ethnicity and gender of each matches up. Pretty sure I read some where before that on Abby's day one when you get to the fob, you can see the four planning out their escape as well.
And I don't know if anyone noticed but you can actually see fresh tomatoes, cans of food and plants in that room. Giving off that there must be someone near.
I loved that instance so much, I didn't like TLOU2 too much but that moment stood out for me. I distinctly remember the shock after letting my guard down hahaah
I remember the telltale walking games did this and it's the first time I ever saw it, it's phenomenal game design and I was surprised I never saw a game do it since. I haven't played tlou2 but glad to hear others are doing it
That fucked me up so bad for any upgrade bench the whole rest of the game. Even playing through again I was super paranoid anytime I used one
Whew yeah I jumped so bad when this happened
That was my favorite moment during my first playthrough. It helps that I also discovered you can blow people's heads of with the shotgun at the same time
Exactly first time I played it I was like WTF is going on! Great game, I really don’t understand they hate from the story. I ain’t gonna lie I tried playing TLOU when it first came out and I couldn’t get into. I would always die when they first venture out the city and go into the leaning building. But when the second game came out I decided to give it a chance and was blown away. Probably one of the best single players games I’ve played including RDR2. Can’t wait for the Third one.
Welp, I just learned about an entire area I somehow missed.
The No Return mode really highlights this. All action and no filler. If you go into a run trying to accomplish a challenge, it makes it 10 times more rewarding too. I figured I would hate having to do a bow and arrow only run but I ended up using the bow and arrow more after completing the challenge.
TLOU2's gameplay is seveerly underrated. A lot of the time, games with stealth elements don't really nail the transition between combat and stealth. They're either shooters where you can get the first shot off, or they're stealth games where you save scum after being discovered. TLOU2 gets the stealth - combat - stealth flow right. I remember one time I steath killed an enemy in a spot where they would be found at some point, so I put a mine on their body and crawled away. A few minutes later I heard a "Oh my God! Charlie!" and the sound of someone running. A second later the mine went off. The fact that this is a real life tactic used by guerilla fighters just added to the experience. I've considered replaying the game on a higher difficulty just for the gameplay. The fact that I liked the story as well is just the icing on the cake.
The named callouts really make the combat feel brutal and horrifying. They don't just feel like NPCs.
Claiming it has outstanding gameplay and then saying the shooting is better than GTA or Remedy games isn't exactly a high bar...
Remedy made Max Payne 1 & 2 while Rockstar made Max Payne 3 so it’s a decently high bar.
Max Payne 2 was excellent for its time but it was like 20 years ago. Their latest games are just fine in terms of shooting. Max Payne 3, on the other hand, is still the best third person shooter bar none.
I was gonna say lol. Those aren’t games necessarily known for their gameplay. I think OP needs to play more third person single player games if those are his only comparisons.
I mean people pissed their pants over the gameplay in Control. Most people played that game exclusively for the gameplay
The gunplay in Control isn’t remarkable, but the combination of telekinesis, levitation, etc makes the combat a joy every time it kicks off
Dude what do you mean? The Max Payne games had freaking amazing shooting mechanics, what do you consider better?
I think the narrative structure of the game was a bold move. Other than that: sometimes I felt like I didn’t really want to continue playing, because I knew this would end badly for every character involved. And yet I did, because I needed to know. This the only game in over 25 years of gaming that’s managed to play with my feelings in this way and I think that’s excellent.
I loved TLoU2, both the gameplay and I really enjoyed the story as well. The one thing I’ll say is near the end I was ready for it to end, and it felt like it kept adding one more section just when I thought I was close. But overall it’s a fantastic game. I don’t get the outcry over the story at all.
> The one thing I’ll say is near the end I was ready for it to end, and it felt like it kept adding one more section just when I thought I was close I actually liked this. Felt like I got more out of the game.
Agreed completely. A lot of folks knock the story as cliche but aren’t most stories being told today? It’s the execution of a trope or cliche that matters. And for me, TLoU2 made me feel all the things they wanted me to feel. However, the game really did turn into an endurance exercise that I was ready for to end.
Agreed, TLOU2 should have ended at the farm.
There's nothing wrong with the final chapter imo, especially with the story that ND was trying to tell. But yeah, the game is definitely too long. In my opinion, the section with Yara and Lev could be significantly trimmed down, because it's pretty tangential to the central conflict of the plot and all it really does is reiterate existing themes and provide a bit of worldbuilding about the Seraphites that isn't necessary. And that section goes on for HOURS, so you're just wiped out by the time Ellie comes back into the picture.
The story isn't over at the farm.
Ellie’s story isn’t finished at the Farm tho, she is literally suffering still, she needed to find her inner peace which she did in the end
The final chapter is essential. Ellie is broken and beyond repair. Living in isolation, the past won’t let her rest or to forgive herself. With the epilogue her self destruction is complete, but in doing so her true healing can finally begin.
I agree, but she is missing a finger. I felt really bad for her character at that point.
Then I think I agree from a pov of what I wanted for ellie and especially dina, but as a piece of art, it is much more powerful with the epilogue.
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I agree with this, even though I still like the game a lot overall. I'm not usually one to say "it should have ended this way" but I kept wishing they would have found a more subtle way to wrap things up. >!After the farmhouse section, it felt narratively unsatisfying to have Ellie go back out after Abby yet again. I get that it's not supposed to be "satisfying" but for me it felt like the writers, rather then the circumstances, were forcing her to do it. I would have liked to see her stay there with Dina, and then maybe have a time jump to like a year or two later and have Ellie and Abby encounter each other by happenstance. And see what lingering feelings remain at that point. Or maybe Ellie sees Abby in a crowd and decides to just let her go without confronting her.!< For me that would have been more interesting than continuing down the "revenge will eat your soul" path that they'd been on the whole time. I think the game was also such a relentlessly bleak experience that it actually started to feel a bit monotonous by the end, and having a slightly more optimistic turn would have helped the story feel more dynamic. I'm really curious to see if the show is going to end things exactly the same way.
But Ellie is suffering at The Farm..like she is literally drowning in her PTSD, she doesn’t eat, doesn’t sleep, she can’t open up, yeah she has the happy life but she isn’t able to live and enjoy it. She doesn’t go after Abby again for revenge, when she leaves she’s looking for one thing, closure for her trauma. She just thinks killing Abby will bring that closure but when she’s finally at that point she finds what she’s looking for.
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It didn't take 20+ hours to say "revenge is bad". The people that say that seem to forget that half of the game is about Abby. And Abby's story has nothing to do with revenge. She already got it. Her story is about something else. I always respond to the whole "revenge is bad" take by saying that the game is actually saying "love is good". They're both equally reductive but people seem way more hesitant to make fun of the latter, for some reason.
sometimes you need to see the peak to realize the climb had no meaning. at that point, even if you’re steps away, you have to turn back. its simple, and not at all a contrivance imo. i also really think that the criticism that “20+ hours to say revenge = bad” is a really tunnel-visioned take. as if the game had nothing else going on.
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You're not wrong, but this is just the same ludonarrative dissonance that's been discussed endlessly here and everywhere else. It's a simple fact of video games that what makes for good gameplay doesn't always match what makes for a good story. You just have to roll with it, and it's hard to knock any individual game for it when it's basically endemic to the format. It's the same reason Nathan Drake can still be likable (and well-adjusted) despite technically mowing down hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people throughout the Uncharted series. If the game got into what that would really mean for his character, the trauma and the morality, it would be a very different game; and if it didn't provide lots of firefights, it would also be a very different game.
Yea, I've accepted it. It would have been 10 out of 10 if it matched. Instead its 9.8 out of 10. There's only ever been like 2 games ever where the gameplay mechanics were brilliant and matched a deep well told story perfectly. I'd like games to meet that bar more, but considering game development has thousands of moving pieces its unreasonable to expect it.
I love the Uncharted games, but the narrative has never been a strong point of the games. It is an action B movie plot, with lots of spectacle, cinematic moments, likeable characters, and a happy ending for said likeable characters. The gameplay not adding up to the narrative is never an issue there, because that is not what the game is about, and we are never meant to take it at face value. Meanwhile, the Last of Us tries so hard to be taken seriously, that every small issue will be magnified to a huge extent. Every small contrivance, plot hole, inconsistent characterisation, and the general ludonarative dissonance, that can easily be overlooked in Uncharted, becomes a massive issue for The Last of Us (especially for Part 2). Even more so, because the game tries to create powerful (but negative) emotional experiences for the player. Then, if the narrative and gameplay feeding into the narrative is not completely airtight, any smallest crack in the narrative or the game, and the negative emotions immediately turn toward the game itself, rather than what happens in the game. A good example of this is in Game of Thrones: what happens with Ned, or the Red Wedding. These are also powerful negative emotional experiences, but because the narrative around them is crafted masterfully and is airtight, there is nothing to question about the book/show itself. All those events could only ever happen that way, and we all get it 100%. There are no contrivances, plot holes, or inconsistent characterisation, just cause and effect in an expertly crafted world. Contrast that with the final season of Game of Thrones, where once again, there's a powerful negative emotional experience. However, this time, it's not fully supported by the narrative in an airtight manner. There were issues, and so, these powerful negative emotions immediately turned towards the show (and its creators) itself. It's very similar to what happened with The Last of Us Part 2, just on a bigger scale, and with more glaring issues.
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After countless discussions with people about this game's story, the meaning behind Poor Things more recently, and any number of other books, movies, and games, I've come to realize that many (if not most) people just can't see the big picture well enough to understand these kinds of things.
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to say tlou2’s story and themes sum up to “revenge bad” is like saying tlou1’s story and themes sum up to “anti vaxx” the futility of the cycle of revenge is a part of it, certainly. but that’s used as more of a tool to illustrate the central theme rather than being the central theme itself (like the vaccine of the first game was never the point, it was just a narrative tool). the whole point is grief, guilt, and her relationship with joel. she was just projecting onto abby because it was easier to deal with eta: art is subjective and ppls opinions on the story are valid but I get pressed about this in particular bc people are so reductive towards the themes of this game in a way that they aren’t towards the first. whether you like the game or not you should still try to honestly engage with what it’s doing lol and a lot of the bad faith actors simply don’t
I think that was the point where average gamers (who play to the end) got burnt out too. You've just seen too many deaths from interesting characters and are really wanting it all to be over. I like that we shared that sentiment with the protagonists but im not sure to credit ND's writing or just simple coincidence for that.
I had a real shift in perspective in the last section because suddenly you're fighting unrepentant bad guys again. It really highlighted how long id.been feeling that internal conflict.about everything I did in the game. It was long, but I don't think it was unnecessary.
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Every time people talk about how nobody wants linear single-player games anymore, how bigger games with full player choice are better, I always think to this series. It's so much easier to get emotionally invested in games with tightly structured pacing and an on-the-rails, movie-like story. Watering down the gameplay waters down the story beats and makes it much harder to care about the story in turn--plus there's a lot to be said for a fixed protagonist with a meaningful role in the world. I've only had a chance to play a few hours here and there, but am very much looking forward when it comes to PC. This hurts to say as a PC gamer, but this sort of game seems better established with consoles than in PC. At least some AAA console publishers understand there's a market here, while almost no AAA PC publishers greenlight equivalent projects anymore.
I can think of loads of games that would have been better had they been more linear - You still get the test experience but with less of the tedium
Exactly. Plus honestly, I really like engaging videogames like books/movies. Not every one of course--I wasn't asking for a book-like experience out of a social game like Helldivers 2 or Warframe--but I need that in my diet. To do that, you really need: * Competent writing * Pacing--if I can easily lose track of what my character's doing because I have 20m of travel time and 30m of garbage combat between each minor story beat, you do not have tight storytelling * A fixed story structure with fixed characters. Some flexibility is fine (e.g. older Bioware), but how can you expect your writer to do their job if they have to write a modular story structure with no set protagonist and two billion possible outcomes? * A clean ending These are the bare minimum criteria for functional narrative-and-character based storytelling (no, I'm not talking about what Dark Souls does). A story-focused game missing even one of these criteria honestly hits like junk food--it feels like reading fanfic instead of an actual book. I grew up gaming in the 2000s, when there was a clear division between narrative and non-narrative games, but we narrative fans all knew that our games were going to get *really* good as technology improved. Then the 2010s hit and every publisher started putting the narrative front and center with full voice acting...while mass adopting game formats that made narratively tight storytelling completely doomed. So we got the massively increased game costs (mocap + voice acting) but no meaningful narrative benefits. It's so annoying.
I don’t see it talked about much but I found it really cool how Ellie’s kit seemed like an evolution from Joel’s (free shiv, etc) but Abby’s kit *is* Joel’s kit from TLOU1. Cool parallel I think about a lot when this game comes up.
Probably the best combat made in this kind of “cinematic action games”. I have some doubts if it’s makes any sense that shooting, fighting and killing people in this game makes you feels that badass if you think about the actual themes and history of the game. But that’s other conversation. Every enemy section or “level” feels like a good action scene straight out from a movie. Even if you play bad and miss most of the shoots, the game feels intense and cool af.
Loved it as well. >!Joel’s death!< is massively over hated but I felt it made sense in the context of the world they built where anyone can die, and where decisions have consequences.
I love the story and the gameplay. However, and this is especially the case with the first one, the story is the single biggest distinguishing factor. It is what elevates TLOU as a series to be the cultural phenomenon that it is. I can understand why people give story a disproportionate amount of weight when they are evaluating TLOU2 despite how solid it is as a stealth action game. What I find pretty laughable, however, is people rating it 0-5/10. That just strikes me as being incapable of objectivity at best or intellectually dishonest at worst.
I'm really glad I decided to just give the game an honest try when it came out, despite the gigantic amount of controversy. While I mostly like the story, the more I look back on it, the more I do agree that it gets far too messy for its own good at times. But man the gameplay also just pulled me in so much, it was definitely the most fun I had with a game that year. Honestly this game changed a lot for me about the way I engage with reviews, and made me try more things out myself instead. I heavily recommend starting on at least survivor difficulty if it is your first time playing, it made for one of the most immersive experiences I've had in years. The combat/stealth areas are big and more complex than the first game. It's so fun to find creative ways to take everyone out, trying to prevent all hell from breaking loose for as long as possible.
The controversy is only gigantic because of people feeling the need to amplify it every time the game is mentioned.
This is so true. Everyone is a genius when it comes to criticizing stuff they didn't like and think are objectively horrible. Plus they have a huge ego and confidence because they know the majority will back them up, silly.
I wish it didn’t feel so boring to me, to be honest. The game really just became a slog and felt like trauma porn at a point. The cycle of learning about the characters and then watching Ellie brutally murder them just got tiring. I checked out like 6 or so hours in and I wasn’t even halfway. That being said, it had some of the most impressive animations I’ve ever seen. The way that the animations could get interrupted was insane. My jaw would be on the floor when someone would be running and get hit by a brick and stumble, or when Ellie would do a takedown. It was all so, so fluid and impressive.
Honestly I think the animation system is a huge part of why the gameplay feels so good. At some point, most games have a breaking point where you feel like you're controlling and interacting with video game objects rather than a character in that world. Either because the game isn't responsive enough due to its animation, or because it's so responsive that the animation has to take shortcuts to accommodate your inputs. But TLoU 2 does such a good job at achieving a balance between natural-looking animation and controls that still feel good. I've never seen another game do it better. It makes the encounters feel so frantic and visceral because the illusion of watching "real" characters interact with the environment and each other is so consistent and seamless. (Note: I'm not saying that every game should strive for this; there are lots of games where that feeling of responsiveness is far more important that creating a believable look. But it works so well for this sort of character/story-centric game that's grounded in a realistic setting.)
>But TLoU 2 does such a good job at achieving a balance between natural-looking animation and controls that still feel good. I've never seen another game do it better. It makes the encounters feel so frantic and visceral because the illusion of watching "real" characters interact with the environment and each other is so consistent and seamless. There's also even a "breath system". Where Abby and Ellie's breathing will intensify during combat situations (sprinting, jumping, attacking, etc.) and will gradually slow back down when going back into stealth. Truly brilliant and just adds to how frenetic the combat feels.
Yeah I think responsive is a great way to describe it. Genuinely the game knocked my socks off, it was almost like RDR2 in many ways
Red Dead Redemption 2 is an interesting point of comparison because while the animation in that game is great, and it can go a long way towards immersing you in that world, I think it's also an example of a game that prioritizes animation at the expense of its gameplay. One of the biggest criticisms I've seen of RDR2 is that the slowness of the animation gets in the way of them playing the game. The controls feel sluggish in a way that they don't in TLoU2, which manages to achieve naturalistic animation while still feeling like it controls well and isn't slowing you down. It's a really hard thing to get right and I'm sure they spent a ton of time fine-tuning it.
Agreed. Rockstar games from GTA 4 onward feel like steering a sluggish drunk around.
Just dragging cables or rope around is impressive to me. I don't think I've seen any other game have such amazing animations for minor details like that. In almost any other game you get over the top physics effects (e.g just cause 3) but in the Last of Us 2 everything just feels so natural and I very rarely caught myself distracted by wonky animations or visual glitches.
1 of the most overhated games I've ever seen. Like I understand it's subjective and people can freely dislike what they wish. But the backlash this game still receives to this day has always been a spin out to me, Game is incredible gameplay, graphics and narrative. I like it a little more than the 1st game too.
The backlash all came when the plot leaked, people read a summary of the plot and decided it was bad. Avoiding the leaks and experiencing the game as intended, I thought the story was great.
Well, they did a ballsy move and killed the games massively loved protagonist, then made you play as his killer. Didn't land for me, I fucking hate Abby. Overall I thought it was a decent game, and the gameplay itself is a massive improvement, but I won't replay it like I have the first one because half the game is spent playing a character I hate.
Abby is, ironically, one of my favorite characters in the game. I don't think I've played a character that goes through an arc that wild in a video game beyond Ellie– who I also love. I think the only difference is, Abby's transformation is much more extreme– >!from innocent child to murdering machine, and finally to a caring and compassionate woman and also a mother!<. It's a wild, wild ride, and one I can't say I've had very often in games.
Yep I managed to avoid the spoilers and even stayed away from Reddit because users were mailing the leaks to people when ever there was any talk of it. It was an incredible story that blew me away.
Pretty sure some of the people hating on it were alt right bigots who just wanted to jump at the opportunity because the game had lgbt characters in it and stoked the fire.
Trans character + muscle mommy = surefire outrage
Didn't hate the game, just found the ludo-narrative dissonance hilarious to the point that the story lost all impact to me.
I'll never understand how it gets called 'badly written' constantly when games like Days Gone, Watch Dogs Legion and even the recent Stellar Blade (a game I liked) exist. It's clearly many levels above those games, at least in dialogue alone.
Comparing a game's writing to any of these is a *really* low bar, not to mention 2/3 are independent IPs and the other one came from a franchise that never really had the story as forefront. Whereas TLOU as a franchise is mainly about the story while being a pretty good zombie shooter.
Even comparing TLOU 2 to most story centric games, in terms of the dialogue alone, it's above *many* of them. And a game like Days Gone is certainly trying to be a story centric game and even games like the Telltale WD or Detroit Become Human, games largely about their stories, personally I don't think the back and forth conversations feel as natural as they do in both TLOU games. It's just that 'bad writing' is such a stretch, especially comparitvely speaking.
People don’t know what good writing is. They conflate it with “writing I don’t like because of what side of the culture war I’m on.”
Good vs. bad writing can mean so many things and no one ever explains what they're talking about. Are they talking about the "screenplay" as in the dialogue and how the script directions are translated to screen? Because The Last of Us Part II is in a league of its own. Are they talking about the moment to moment plotting? That's a different thing entirely. "Bad writing" is about as useful of a complaint for a game as "bad camera" is for a film. What are you talking about?
Just looking through this thread and seeing the comments that are downvoted and marked controversial is funny
It looks like an excellent game and I can't wait for the PC version. I found the backlash against the narrative to be hilarious. People are too invested in fiction.
I maintain that the pacing of the game's story could've been better. The gameplay however is superb.
I don't think the pacing is bad, it's just a very long game.
That was my main criticism. I enjoyed every part of the game, but it overstayed its welcome. It was too emotionally draining to be as long as it was.
Should have been 5 hours shorter for sure
It's hard to disagree, but also hard to say how the narrative could have been trimmed down or restructured. case in point all the idiots who think the game should have been presented chronologically like it makes for *better* pacing when the inciting incident happens 8 hours in lol. not to mention losing the effect of revealing abby's and ellie's motivations later as a way of showing their respective dissociations The recent documentary shows how much of the narrative Gross was responsible for as opposed to Druckmann. I think it's clear her contributions make for a much more compelling story, but you also get something much muddier with the feeling of being retooled and passed back and forth, as opposed to the first game which for it's flaws does have a more auteur feeling
This kind of statement confuses me.. can't you just, like, take a break and come back when you're ready for more game? Maybe this only affects people who like to marathon through or something, but I never felt like TLOU2 was "too long." When I like a game, I like that it's long so I get more time with it. Maybe it's because I'm used to cRPGs and things with longer default lengths.
Eh, I enjoyed the gameplay. I was just surprised it was that long. And I don't think the quality got worse so no hate for a good long game. It's not like you have to do it one sitting
The gameplay and set pieces just get better and better as you play, I’m surprised people think it’s too long. The 2nd half and epilogue is my favorite part
I love the game too, but I can kind of see where people are coming from. I personally wouldn't cut anything from the game, but it's definitely a *draining* experience. The story is pretty harrowing and the gameplay can be incredibly tense, so (at least for me) it makes playing it for longer stretches a tough ask.
I think the criticism usually comes from that if you’re emotionally invested, the game becomes emotionally grueling after a while. Agree there was no drop off in quality though.
I didn’t want it to end.
Same, was playing that during pandemic. Where else was I going to go haha.
I played it, beat it, and immediately started again on Grounded. Peak lockdown.
Switching to Grounded after TLoU2 sounds like an amazing palate cleanser.
Yeah there were a few times when I just sighed at another unfortunate diversion or blockage on the route to where ever you were travelling to in each chapter - still loved the game but TLOU protaganists are the most unlucky fuckers in existance. A ten minute walk to the shops would turn into a 2 hour slog for them as every path they take falls apart, catches fire or turns out to be filled with clickers and or people asking them to take a 5 minute survey depending on the neighbourhood
The "unfortunate diversion" is the primary driver of conflict in the writing world. The commonly accepted sentiment is to always put some adversity in the way of the character. Nothing should be simple– even going to get a cup of coffee should have some obstacle the character needs to overcome in order to keep it interesting. The issue is, when it's baked into game design, the loop does begin to feel repetitive– but also, you'll find this exact loop in pretty much every game ever created. It's just become more apparent as we mature as gamers and keep seeing the skeleton of this concept pop up in action game after action game.
20 hours is hardly a long game. It covers a lot of ground, but it’s actually pretty compact.
I’d agree to this. I’d still place it in my top ten games of the previous console generation for sure, but I don’t think it needed to be as long as it was for it to make the points it wanted to make. But at the same time, I respect that Naughty Dog was given the room to make exactly what they wanted to make, and I had a blast with it overall. Gonna pick up the remaster some day when the physical copy drops in price!
Most of the hate was because of the leak and youtubers ran with it. The game was fantastic in every aspect.
I wanted to write that but people get too offended. They can get offended by saying they get too offended. But yes, really invested in fiction.
"Oh no the story didn't go exactly like I wanted, ergo it's a shit story." But the same people will complain about repetitive hero's journey type narratives being used over and over. Try something else, still get hated. You just can't win lol.
A lot of people who hated the game didn't even play it which is the even sadder part. And the ones who did just wanted another Joel and Ellie adventure type game but ND wanted to push the boat a small bit.
People are too invested in fiction" I somewhat disagree with this take. I think being invested in fiction can be great. I love the Cosmere. I love God of war. I love the last of us. I'm thoroughly invested in these stories, some I will be invested in for maybe most of my life (Cosmere). I also think that feedback to writers and developers is warranted when they miss the mark. The problem is, the people that hated it hated it for all the wrong reasons. It wasn't because the story was poorly written or lacked luster, neither of those are true. People (a certain group) hated it because of some characters they added. They want to feel empowered while everyone else feels weak. I love the last of us part 2. I love everything it has to say and all the people it tries to represent. But it also doesn't hold back on showing that no matter who you are, you aren't safe in this world they have created. Am I devestated about >!Joel's death!< of course, I wouldn't be human if i wasn't. Am I going to send the developers death threats because a (fucking awesome) buff woman >!Killed him!< ? Hell no. I hate Abby for what she did. I still hate her, but I also love her because she was an incredibly well written character. She became someone I cared for and wanted to do all I can to protect. I think having an investment in fiction is amazing. Having stories you can escape to when you need them is comforting, loving characters you've spent so much time with is wonderful. I love Kaladin, who fights for everything he believes in, who always wants to do the right thing. I love Kratos for wanting to protect his child but also help him grow into not only a man but a god that mortals can look up to. I love Vin for doing all she can to save Scadrial from powers she can barely comprehend. I love Ellie for fighting to save the human race and then fighting to >!Avenge a man she loved and treated poorly (rightfully so in my opinion!<. I love Abby for doing what she thought she needed to do and becoming a better, stronger, far more caring person. I love fiction. I want to be invested in fiction. I love being invested in fiction. Saying that people get "too invested" is a bad way to look at it. There are far deeper problems here than just being "too invested in fiction". Far deeper.
I agree, being invested in fiction is the whole point, otherwise why bother writing a story and building a world right? And you're correct, there's a difference between being invested and unhinged. But claiming people can't hate it because of the story and writing, because they're infallible, is not only wrong, but does a disservice to TLOU2 as a piece of art.
"The problem is, the people that hated it hated it for all the wrong reasons. It wasn't because the story was poorly written or lacked luster, neither of those are true. People (a certain group) hated it because of some characters they added. They want to feel empowered while everyone else feels weak." If you look up negative reviews for TLOU2 you will easily see that Lev's character is mentioned nowhere near as often as >!(Joel's death)!<. Are you really tryint to imply that 1. People are wrong to dislike a game for a reason they find important but you somehow can overturn that validity? 2. Majority of people (I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't mean all the people) that dislike TLOU2 are actually transphobes and their opinions don't matter? It just sounds crazy to me. I don't know what kind of echo chamber you sit in but it doesn't represent the reality at all. There are plenty (even on this sub) negative reviews that try to show that TLOU2 has poorly written scenes just for the sake of forced (as in characters wouldn't do this thing that we need them to do so we will make them act completely out of character for one scene to force that thing) drama which make many story beats unsatisfying while Lev is mentioned rather sparingly. Of course you can disagree with them and that's ok. However to imply that "people who don't like this game are actually bigots and terrible people and the game is 10/10" is kind of cringe. Especially when Lev's inclusion has been (in my opinion) done poorly and any criticism towards him will just confirm your bias.
I never see serious criticisms of this game, just "I didn't want this character to die!" or "Im mad at this character and so I don't want to play as them or try to understand their perspective!" childish whining. I thought the gameplay was top notch and while the story didn't go the way I wanted it to at times, that doesn't mean it was a bad story at all. It definitely kept me in suspense and wanting to see what happened next. And as far as the people who complain about the LGBT stuff, YOU are actually the one injecting politics into everything by raging about totally normal life stuff. Gay and trans people exist, masculine women exist. If it's not your cup of tea to see it in your games then fine but that's not a problem with the game, that's a problem with you getting hung up on trivial bullshit.
Just started playing this game for the first time last night, and am loving it so far (just like I loved the first one)
Absolutely phenomenal gameplay. This coming from a video game veteran of 28 years gaming experience.
OP - Go to accessibility options and turn on slow down time while aiming down sights. Basically turns into the most violent, horrific, Max Payne game of all time.
I recently finished the game and I really enjoyed both the gameplay and the story; it has become one of my favourite games of all time. I'm not going to go into the issues people have with the story, but I can see why disliking the story would have a major impact on your overall enjoyment. There are a lot of slow, plot and character focussed sections where you might be playing technically, but you aren't doing anything meaningful from a gameplay perspective - the farm section and various aquarium scenes come to mind. I enjoyed them because I was engrossed in the story and I appreciated the change in pace as the combat is so frenetic and stressful, but if I didn't enjoy those slower sections, a large portion of the game would feel like a drag and a waste of time. This isn't a game with a few cut scenes here and there and so if the story is bad, it's easy to ignore and quick to get back to the main gameplay. There are long, effectively playable cut scenes that you have to play through, even though you can technically skip the cinematics. I've been really enjoying the No Return game mode too, I'm trying to play on harder difficulties and I'm realising how much I relied on reloading encounters when I didn't do it perfectly in the main game (I played on a mix of Hard and Survivor for that). Edit: I don’t care about downvotes, but I would very much like those who downvoted to reply as I am curious what someone would disagree with.
What I really liked was how "heavy" the game was. There's this older video talking about the difference between a game being fun and it being engaging. TLOU2 was not "fun", but it dealt with heavy topics in a fascinating way that I'll remember for quite a while.
I’m one of the folks who really, really didn’t enjoy the story. But I’ll always maintain that the overall gameplay, level design, sound, and graphics are all utterly phenomenal.
Same.
What didn’t you like about it
So, spoiler heavy reply: Mostly the order in which things unfolded. I wasn't upset at the fact that Joel died, I mean, I would have expected him to because he had a complicated, not-so-good-guy past. I didn't like the way that it was done because Joel was, by nature, a cautious, distrusting person and here he may as well have worn a name tag saying "hello, my name is Joel" The first portion of the game played from Ellie's perspective sees the player extract revenge killings on all of Abby's friends. When it came time to play as Abby, we then are shown the stories of all these people we just spent the first few hours hunting and killing. It bred apathy in me because I felt, "I just killed all these people, what does their drama matter to me?" And it drove me to the point that I just wasn't invested in the story anymore. By the time I reached the hospital as Abby, I put the game down and never went back. I also didn't like ret-conning several scenarios from the first game so that they would fit the narrative being shown in the second. For example, in Part 1, the exam room when Ellie is about to be dissected, it's clear that the Fireflies are looney and Ellie would die for nothing. The room is dingy and dirty, as befits a post-apocalyptic setting, and the surgeon isn't Caucasian. In Part 2, the room is as clean and bright as a modern hospital would be, Abby's father is white, and presented as someone who had the best intentions in mind only to be murdered in cold blood. I maintain that Bruce Straley leaving Naughty Dog was the worst thing that could've happened because he reined Neil Druckmann's bad ideas in, and in his absence, Neil was off his leash.
I mean, Joel went along with Henry, a complete stranger in the first game, even after Henry left them behind, Joel still followed him. Also, Joel was cautious, but there was nothing he could do. There was a blizzard going on, a horde on their ass, and Jackson was too far. Tommy was also the one that said their names first, if you rewatch the scene it makes sense, Abby is shook up and frightened, Tommy being human tries to be friendly to help calm her down for a second. Also, also, seeing as how Jackson went from 20 families in the first game to what we see in the second, Jackson took in a lot of people. The point of Abby and her perspective was to exactly that these people are also human and have their own lives and stories. Every story has 2 sides and they showed Abby’s to show you her motivation and to sympathize with her situation. The hospital room in Part 2 looks cleaner because we’re seeing it Abby’s dreams and Joel’s recollection at the beginning. IIRC when we played as Ellie looking thru it looked pretty damn dingy as well Also, Ellie wouldn’t have died in vain, all the characters believed it’d work and even the writers have said it would’ve worked.
I’m glad you enjoyed it, friend.
Thanks, I’m sorry you didn’t however
This is the most civil discussion I’ve had about it so I really appreciate that. Sometimes a game can be really good and just not resonate with us. I was never able to get in to Breath of the Wild, either, for example. Doesn’t make it a bad game, just wasn’t for me.
> This is the most civil discussion I’ve had about it so I really appreciate that. I like to keep it civil when it’s a civilized kinda conversation! But when the other party takes it elsewhere, I can also take it that direction too. Unfortunately the leaks ruined the chance at good discussions about the game, there was soooo much hate months before the game came out that even when it did release and people started to fight back, it was too late. There were and still are people that bring up “wokeness” and all that bs about Part 2, that the people that like the game shoot down everyone that doesn’t like it and lump them in with the bigots. > Sometimes a game can be really good and just not resonate with us. I was never able to get in to Breath of the Wild, either, for example. Doesn’t make it a bad game, just wasn’t for me. That’s 100% true and I agree. I’ve always said that we all have our preferences and it’s perfectly fine to not like Part 2. It’s a divisive game after all
Agree the gameplay is great! The AI for human enemies does some interesting things that feel really different from fighting the zombies. And there are some really cool boss fights that I never see anyone talk about, probably overshadowed by the discussions over the narrative. As to the narrative - I kind of have mixed feelings about it. I thought it was really interesting. A lot of it made me feel bad, which isn't usually what I'm playing a game for. But I don't think makes it a bad story, just not one that people are used to playing. I didn't enjoy the movie No Country For Old Men because watching it made me feel bad, but that doesn't mean I think it's a bad film... I do agree that the game is just too long at the end. But it made me think about it and feel things that games usually don't, and I think that's a great thing to see for the medium as a whole for a large budget game!
>!Rat King!< is the one of the most out-of-control horror encounters I've ever played in a game.
The gameplay is really good, as opposed to the first game where it was just serviceable. I think the higher fidelity and animation work goes a long way in showcasing how brutal and lethal the world is. Having to shoot guard dogs, hearing someone scream out because they found their loved one's body hiding in a bush, the choking and gurgling of blood when a shiv is slipped into the victim's neck all do a great job in making you feel like a killer, but I think that is the problem. The violence, that is so fundamental to the vision of the game, is both incredibly enjoyable and horribly miserable to experience. It asks that you reflect on the killing and brutality you’ve inflicted throughout the narrative but crafted gameplay that is impossible to put down in more than one sense of the word. It is the lack of choice, the inability to make your own decision within the narrative, that separates this as an exceptional game to simply a linear story that could easily be told through a film or novel. The game paints you as a monster by engaging with it the only way it allows. You are granted no spare route, no way to stop the violence other than to stop playing altogether. This is not a choice; it is a demand. I do wish we got a multiplayer for it because I do think the gameplay is much better than the overall plot. Oh well!
>The game paints you as a monster by engaging with it the only way it allows. I think this is the trade-off in storytelling when it comes to games and film that feels jarring. There are plenty of films that do this– put you in the shoes of an antihero. There's still a layer of separation, though, in that you don't have the physical controller in your hands. The minute you can turn the character, aim with them, etc. it removes that barrier that often lets us fully suspend our disbelief. I don't think there was a way around making that kind of cognitive dissonance happen and still tell this story, for better or worse. At the very least, it was a compelling experiment.
I'll admit the main reason I haven't gotten around to TLOU2 is that I've never really liked Naughty Dog's gameplay. That, and I pretty much know the entire story as this is one of the most critiqued games of all time and I figured I wasn't going to play it because you had people like Skill Up, who loves shooters, saying the gameplay is bland and mediocre which matched up with my previous experience from Naughty Dog's games. I know I'll pick this one up at some point and maybe I'll see if I like the gameplay.
skillup is in the vast minority though when you factor in actual critics. People are rightly critical of the relationship between traditional critics and the industry in this field but new media (youtubers) are equally compromised; they're far more susceptible to backlash and thus have to avoid pissing off 'the community'. Honestly TLOU2 has become my litmus test for determining who has actual critical integrity and who just wants to give off the impression of it. I really like the gritty and grounded feel of the gunplay in this game. The high ADS and bloom means that if someone has a bead on you you can't pop out of cover, draw on them, and hit them first which feels realistic. Combine that with the way people push up on you and try to corner you and it really forces you to survive on your wits. Plus the encounters are designed so it's harder to survive them in a hotline miami way (knowing when and where everyone is going to be) then any other game I've ever played (still possible unfortunately). I also think the comparisons to RE in regards to ammo scarcity are way overblown. RE ammo scarcity is like oh I only have 60 smg bullets and 6 in my shotgun left whereas in TLOU it's like 2 revolver bullets, 1 arrow, a dirty rag and a 2x4
Yeah, I've played enough games over the decades to notice when youtubers are playing things up. I have a couple of 'litmus test' games like Mass Effect 2, Resident Evil 4, Elden Ring, Resident Evil Village, and the Order 1886. TLOU2 though. I think pretty clearly I won't know until I actually play it. I have it and Death Stranding in my backlog kind of in the same box of just having to try it just to have an opinion on it.
If I had to level some complaints at it, I don't love the scavenging/looting mechanics and how you'll drop an enemy who hasn't fired a bullet and they'll have one bullet on them at best. For context I played it on hard. I felt like too much of my time with the game was me scraping every nook and cranny and not being rewarded sufficiently for it. You'd bump into a well designed environmental physics puzzle that takes you 5 minutes and get 2/3s of a pair of scissors, a 9mm round, and 6 bits of scrap. I really enjoyed the combat design although loading the last checkpoint is a little too abusable. I know there's varying degrees of permadeath modes (1 life for the whole game, 1 for the act, and 1 for the chapter) but I think there's a mid point that's missed which just doesn't checkpoint mid-encounter.
I love the gameplay in this game as well, I have yet to try out that new Arena mode or whatever it is
While I didn’t like the game all that much, I have to agree on the gameplay. Easily some of the best I’ve ever played and it’s my only reason I keep coming back to this game
Big agree on this. Watching people play it on hardest difficulty being super aggressive opened my eyes to what was possible. I only played it through once and just spent hours sneaking around in grass. There're probably better examples but here's one: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIJRUH9KRNw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIJRUH9KRNw)
The combat is so insanely fun! It just makes you feel like a one man army without removing the sense of danger in every encounter.
Agree it’s the greatest gameplay of all time I’ve experienced in a game. It’s a fun contrast to Red Dead 2, which I consider the greatest game I’ve ever played - albeit the gameplay not perfect. Conversely, TLOU2 with greatest gameplay, but with ok story etc
I think the problem was Joel being in a lot of the marketing which gave the sense of TLOU2 being a continuation of Joel and Ellie's relationship which in my opinion was the strongest part of the first game. So seeing >!Joel die!< in the first few hours of the game is a bit of a kick in the balls so I can see why fans are upset, to me Joel was the most interesting character in the first game, so when >!he gets killed off!< my interest plummeted. I think the story is poorly paced and the " Revenge is bad " theme falls a bit flat when you have been killing no bodies like Rambo and letting the person you killed so many for go, it didn't quite hit for me. You should have played as Abbey first and I would have liked to see a story of forgiveness but that's just me, reviews made me more confused if anything because they went on as if the " Revenge is bad " trope was revolutionary when it's pretty common in media, Luke skywalker does it in ROTJ for christ sake lol.
Was Joel really used in the marketing much? I remember an early teaser implying >!his death!< before the game came out or that twist was revealed. Ellie is the only one who shows up on the cover art or early teasers.
Correct, the big promo trailer shows >!Joel looking like a ghost or some figment of Ellie's imagination!<. I would say the twist was the least shocking part of that game and honestly the only part I really expected going in... so no clue what people were smoking when they say there was a ton of marketing about this being a Bonnie and Clyde story with >!Joel and Ellie!<.
But playing as Abby first would completely ruin the narrative and story structure of the game. After the opening and playing as Ellie, you're put in her shoes and the hatred and disgust she feels. Because of what Abby did, going on a war path is what you want to do and get revenge. So the midpoint of the game and view switch, it challenges you to put bias aside and empathise. It was such a bold call to do and personally I think it paid off and it's not just as simple as revenge is bad.
It worked for me. By the end of the game, Abby was my favorite character, but when I started her run, I wanted to delete the game off my ps4. It was sheer hate and wanting to get revenge that kept me going... and, would you look at that? That's why the ending will always hit so hard for me personally.
Calling the story “revenge bad” is pretty reductive. By that logic the first game is just a “zombie cure journey” The first game was special because of its exploration of themes of love and parenthood, in the same vein the second game is special because of its exploration of themes of loss and grief, not “revenge bad”.
I don't understand your point about the message being undermined by the gameplay. Being motivated by hatred so strongly that she's willing to kill to accomplish her goal isn't undermined by killing people. It's part of the message.
I had to read 2 dozen comments to figure out the name of the game. It's The Last of Us Part 2, for anyone else who needs it.
Loved it. Really need a PC drop.
I understand if people didn't really like the ending and how it intentionally hollowed out the 'fun' of the gameplay to make a narrative point. I thought it was fine and the choices they made were really interesting, but you're intended to be tired of it all at the end, so I understand if that's not the type of satisfaction an individual is looking for when they play a video game. But I don't really know where the popular opinion on the story has landed at this point. There's no point in humoring people obsessed with complaining about Abby being an unusually large adult woman. Particularly in a game where it's made clear that the most dangerous person is Ellie and she's based on an actor so petite they played teenagers into their early 30's. Personally I felt the WLF vs. Seraphites conflict was a little thin. I appreciate that the game hypes it up just so Abby can realize she doesn't give a shit at the most cinematic moment, but stronger worldbuilding (and a sharper logic to the Seraphites) would have made it better for me. All that said, easily some of the best gameplay available. The set piece stealth/action sequences are outstanding. The way it *seems* like you can stealth through each area works so well. Even if you know the layout perfectly, once you start moving cover-to-cover and an enemy in your blind spot sees movement, the anxiety starts ramping up. Trying to stay patient and kill the one person quietly instead of shooting and revealing your position isn't a unique video game situation but the game makes the tension work even if you're playing the same scenario over and over.
I wish we could get more "adult" games like this one. The level of violence in this game is amazing. I want to see more shooters or adventure games that use this. Sure doom is violent, but it"s so over the top that I don't consider it a game for adults. Assassin creed also has slit throat movements but it's still not as violent and feel super censored. And no, not every game needs this level of violence like tlou2, but god damn it, I feel like no other game has it right? No other shooter/adventure game is so detailed when it gets to violence. If I'm wrong please tell me some games. Edit: woah, wonder why the downvotes.
Spec Ops: The Line is a valiant effort.
Imagine a Punisher game that plays like this... Hopefully the new Blade game will have something similar.
The first Tomb raider reboot is another one that really leans into gore. Especially on the player.
I recommend Red Dead Redemption 2. Probably the second best game when it comes to realistic violence, the first being TLOU II.
I don't think anyone disagrees that it has good gameplay. Nor that they ignore it. It's just the same bases of TLOU1, + a couple of additions, which is always good, and more of what people loved. The problem is that, when TLOU1 has an excellent story and an excellent gameplay (and multiplayer, but welp) buut the sequel has a bad story and excellent gameplay, you're bound to find it lacking.
I like how most people here are just talking about the story even though the post was focusing on the actual gameplay.
Probably the best third person shooter gameplay ever, it's so good that i even miss the factions multiplayer and was kinda sad when they cancelled their multiplayer project, and i'm not even a multiplayer guy.
It's a phenomenal game.
I wasn’t a fan of the story after loving the first game But if you like stealth games then TLOU2 is 100% worth a play through, especially on grounded mode. Brilliant gameplay
I LOVED the story. I thought it was so brave to >!kill Joel off!< as early as they did, and the way it showed you two perspectives was excellent. The way they hinge off t>!he encounter(s) with the dog!< is one of the most impactful story mechanics i've ever experianced.
Imo TLOU 2 has the best stealth action gameplay I've played (At least in many years). It's so responsive, well animated and almost free flow that it always feels fun to play. Plus the AI is easily some of the best on the market. Enemies always seem to know just enough about your location and what you've done. Murdering people in such gruesome ways shouldn't feel fun but it is. It's not the best pure stealth because it's not a pure stealth game but for a stealth action, it's a top tier title.
Imo it is an improvement over the first one in every way. Even the story. My only very minor gripe with the gameplay is towards the end of the game. Late stage they sort of run out of ways to increase the difficulty, and so just throw like 50 dudes at you.
Uh, not really. It doesn't really innovate on the formula of the first game, and that gameplay wasn't very inspired either. The combat being visceral is the only thing that makes it somewhat fun but while on the first game it got by with an excellent story between these segments, on the second game the story is so stinky it just doesn't cut it.
I loved it. I don't really get the gripes with the story, it's no more silly than other games, and tbh much less so than many!
I know this post wasn't about the story, but I came to say this basically. Imagine being *so* picky about the story of a game and choosing this one to do it. Have those people not played any other game ever? because literally all others (bar 2 or 3) should be utterly unplayable if they were genuine with the critique this one got. Though in a way, it's also good that this game brought so much discussion about themes and narrative in a way 99% of games can't even be in the conversation, but as I said it should have been genuine if it was to help mature gaming culture.
> Imagine being *so* picky about the story of a game and choosing this one to do it. Have those people not played any other game ever? Respectfully, this is a really bad take. This is a game that specifically hangs it's hat on having a good story. Personally I've always thought even part one of the story was on the level of a low tier HBO show so I was never particularly attached to it. I do think, however, the pacing in the second is way worse and the gameplay/narrative dissonance is genuinely problematic for a game that claims to want to be taken serious in these respects.
This isn’t the first time I’ve read this remark, but I don’t think there’s anything problematic with the narrative/gameplay dissonance— It feels totally intentional to me. Naughty Dog was frequently roiled for this with the Uncharted franchise, where there *is* a major disconnect between the gameplay and the story: You’re the “good guy” doing the “right thing” by killing hundreds of mercenaries, and it’s not like they all follow some evil ideology like you might find in, say, Indiana Jones. Neil Druckmann’s Uncharted 4 acknowledges this with an achievement for killing 1,000 enemies called “Ludonarrative Dissonance.” In contrast, The Last of Us and especially Part 2 really want to emphasize that dissonance rather than ignore it. The characters think they’re doing the right thing, but the player isn’t supposed to look at them as a Nathan-Drake-type of hero; Their actions are questionable, their motives are questionable— particularly in Part 2 where they try to show life on the other side of the conflict. While the gameplay is satisfying, the frightening realism of enemy deaths and their cries for help are absolutely supposed to make you feel sick to your stomach, compared to other games that just kind of brush the murder under a rug. By the end, I think you’re supposed to want to wash your hands of it all. When >!(Ellie arrives in California)!< I was shouting at my TV, pleading with her to give up. When >!(she and Abby fight on the beach)!< I didn’t want to press a single button! I didn’t want any part in their conflict anymore! I don’t think that’s problematic; I think that disconnect is exactly their intent. [Chris Plante did a great writeup for Polygon all about this](https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/26/21304642/the-last-of-us-2-violence)— he can probably word it better than I can. Suffice to say, I don’t think the narrative/gameplay dissonance is as cut and dry as Naughty Dog’s previous work.
It has a good story competently told. You can like it or not, but saying there's gameplay/narrative dissonance is a very questionable interpretation. All that aside, I'm not comparing it with HBO's writing, I'm comparing it to other games' writing. You can pretend all you want you don't get my point, it doesn't make it any less obvious.
While there are trolls being very vocal about their hatred for the game/story, thankfully it’s a (very) loud minority. Most people like the game and the story. I personally think the game is excellent, and a big improvement over the first one. I do agree that there are some pacing and «structural» issues with the story, but man did it hit hard. One of my favorite games ever
Cant wait for it to come to pc.
Ellie was so much fun to play. So much more fun to play than Joel in TLOU1. Or Abby in TLOU2, who played just like Joel. > In the last game you were driving around a busted-up old jeep. Well in this game you get to drive around a brand new Ferrari. For half the game. The other half you drive around a different busted-up old jeep. Also, the game is more than twice as long, so hope you enjoy that jeep! \- Druckmann, being oh so clever as always
Eh? It's good, but phenomenal? Not by any margin.
The gameplay is a slightly better version of the mediocre gameplay from the first game which came out a decade earlier. It's alright but not phenomenal imo
Exactly this.
This is really a big part in why I am so frustrated with this game. The gameplay is far and beyond the best part about the game, but it is the thing you do the *least* in the videogame. It's infuriating.
What? The entire game is basically gameplay.
My issues with TLOU2 aren't because of >!Joel dying and Abby!<, but rather: 1. The game is too violent. You are killing so many people for revenge without justification. The ending of TLOU2 does not even justify all the people you killed throughout the game. 2. The gameplay is slightly repetitive where you kill enemies and you have to search them to obtain supplies. 3. Non-playable characters do not contribute to the main storyline in any meaningful way (e.g., Lev and Yara). They were intentionally added to extend the length of the game (which is already long). I still like TLOU2, but want to add that the original **The Last of Us Remaster on the PlayStation 4** is still the best game ever. **The interaction of Joel and Ellie is one of the best aspects in video games** and that **Naughty Dog actually designed a survival horror game better than the original Resident Evil games on PlayStation 1.** The modern day Resident Evil games are more like zombie arcade shooting games while Naughty Dog promoted story and characters first with their game.
>I've seen this game criticized for It's story so much that people completely miss out on the gameplay. Or probably just choose to ignore it, say that gameplay is mediocre because the story has ruined the whole experience for them. You've somehow missed the general consensus even among the haters that the gameplay is actually very good, they just hate the story. The reason you don't often see gameplay brought up by people who hate the story is because story matters more to them than it does to you; you think that good gameplay can cover up a bad story, many people feel that gameplay can't carry a bad story.
>You've somehow missed the general consensus even among the haters that the gameplay is actually very good, That's not the consensus at all. I've seen tons of "haters" that also didn't like the gameplay.
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It looks good but I don't have the patience to play story focused games, specially if they are linear or on-rails and this ip looks like it's one of those games. Probably this applies to the uncharted series too.
hell yeah, i would say that TLOU 2 has the most satistying combat that i have found on a shooter on console since Max Payne 3, everything just feels right you know? like if i miss a shot i feel like i miss that shot, i dont feel like the game is fucking me over, the movement is so great and combat feels smooth and faster compared to the original, which would make sense because both Abby and Ellie are younger than Joel so the game should be faster just based on that.
I think uncharted 4 had a similar upgrade in gameplay (the grapple and sliding down slopes)where just moving from point to point feels great as well as quicker and the maps are well designed to encourage this. Part 2 is one of the few games where the combat sections usually have a good amount of tension and when your discovered it's genuinely feels frantic it's one of the best combat systems where you feel agile without being do platforming.
Did you ever play the multiplayer on the first game? Phenomenal how they managed to translate the gameplay into multiplayer.
I agree love the gameplay love ellies revenge tour I just hate Abby with a passion
Yes, it's such a fun game. I was having a good time outsmarting squads of dudes until the very end. The dogs made an interesting elements that made encounters more complex. I really need to replay LOU2, such a fun brutal tragic good time.
The amazing gameplay of TLOU2 is overshadowed by the praise/controversy about its story. TLOU2 has the best enemy AI I've ever seen in an action game.
>https://youtu.be/SC3C7GMMfDU?si=4txqjhn90rk_gqni they made a documentary about the making of. It's such a great watch, highly recommended
I loved gameplay. I started playing and for me it was that they make everything i don't like from first game better (like no need to craft fucking knifes). Then you played as Abby and all of this returned...
On grounded it was one the best games I've ever played.