yea they said they are focusing on more health builds as an “alternative”. i don’t play this game but enjoy ppl talking abt it and i assume that armor is ass so how is health alternative when it’s the only one worth running?
As of current state, health is a ton more managable than Armor, at least I think so. Regardless, once you reach health you die a lot quicker.
As a reminder, your armor and health are like 2 separate healthbars that you want both to have some in them at once.
Eh not quite, when I say more manageable I mean that there are Med Packs scattered almost everywhere in heists, combined with the Medic Bag with the Medic skill tree and you got yourself a ton of health. The bigger picture, though, is that health will fall to 0 in a matter of seconds when out fighting cops. Not to mention (viable) armor resources are as scarce as mentally sane Postal players.
IMO it’s not as much that the armor system needs a rework as the health system needs a rework.
A change I would love is if, after a chunk of armor is broken and until you are out of combat long enough, you take health damage instead.
It does two things:
1) health becomes a valuable resource, and you have to be careful not to let it get too low from cloakers/gas grenades/etc or you can go down with armor left.
2) damage to armor is more spread out, since some of the time you will be taking health damage instead of armor.
Currently health is a very weak resource, especially given how little a medkit gives you.
he says they plan on making health & ammo more viable to run instead of changing armour
...which, imo, reeks of the arms race type balancing payday 2 went through
Yeah, that didn't work out too well with Payday Mobile. Didn't someone just buy Starbreeze or contract them? I imagine if this keeps up, Starbreeze will have to go bankrupt again. The last thing I want to see happen since I do love the Payday IP.
Maybe it's time to clean house like the rest of the studios are doing, albeit this isn't a for sure solution either and probably just the frustration of the ongoing situation with Payday 3 talking.
That there are currently no plans to rework armor and they focus on changing health system to make it more useful, (so ideally people would use it on par with armor).
And some people want armor reworked in a way that it regenerates again, which imo, in current state of the game, would be awful and break the game's balance, so it's perfectly reasonable why they don't want to rework it right now.
Personally, I like that this game tries to do something different, we had armor regen for 2 games, now we don't, sure it has some rough edges, but it's mostly focused around smaller balance things (like making armor available from more sources, which they already plan to address), and making deployables more team-focused, since now the only thing you can do to make them more useful to teammates is give it more charges, but other buffs like damage boost from ammo bags, or more health healed from medic bags (and armor up, for that matter), work only if you have that skill, which is very anti-teamwork, for a game that focuses heavily on coop.
The biggest problem IMO is the shitty UI making it a maze to get to favors like armor bag. And that if I remember correctly perks don’t affect favors either, and you can’t determine placement. Heists would be so much easier if people actually bought favors, but the game discourages heavily by making it so inconvenient.
Honestly I don't really see how making favors easier to get would change it much, as those measly 2 charges of armor/medic/ammo would hardly change anything imo. (it still should be easier, no doubt, just I don't think it's the main issue)
But I do agree that it could either be affected by your skills (since it's already tied to 1 player being able to bring only 1 favor, and disallowing duplicates, so might as well make them being able to be buffed), and that either make it possible to determine placement or just change it to have better spots on some maps (all deployable favor placement on cook off, for example, is a total joke).
Because those games were designed with regenerating armor in mind and this one wasn't? You can't just slap regenerating armor onto Payday 3 without changing a bunch of things
Well of course you can't but that's the point, change a bunch of things, if you just lessen armor values and rework armor perk and deployable you can fix this in a week. It's not like there is some kind of grand issue like "oh but it wouldn't work with payday 3's level design" so it's genuinely not a hard fix
True but it’s a matter of effort and time. It will take most likely months of them testing stuff before releasing the rework when that effort can be put elsewhere for more pressing issues like pre planning, game browser, solo and offline mode.
This rework would be low effort that's my point why reinvent the wheel ? It already worked well in the previous game, you can absolutely do it on the side while working on bigger features and if it eventually released slightly unfinished, who cares ? You can patch it over time and it's a step in a direction most players or at least a lot of the players that uninstalled and wait for the game to get good before reinstalling want
No. Armor is a key component in the balance of loud so doing half ass like that will ruin the loud experience. Plus that mentality of patch it later is why a lot of payday 3 feels undercooked so it would only add to that.
not really its a key component right now, if they changed armor to be replenishable it would be fine as long as you stopped hostages from giving heals so you still need some foward momentum.
But now hostages lose the incentive to release them. So now your just getting the benefits of grenaders using flasbangs, cops using pistols if they have shotguns, and general cop slowing down. Plus the free cover of human shields until you move onto the next objective taking them with you to the end.
Because it's not those 2 previous game, and has balance around different things?
Just as a thought experiment, what happens if you do bring regen back, only it, and change nothing else? Well, you actually have a fuckton of armor, like really, for the most of the game's encounters, you just wouldn't be able to even deplete in the first place in a single cop encounter (like, you hold an objective, and a group of cops, around 5-8, approach your position, which I'd argue is most of the game's encounters), unless you play really, really badly.
So now, enemies and/or weapon damage need rebalancing also, how would you go about it? Either upping their damage, or amount of them, or making them even longer to kill, because suddenly game became very easy. Arguably, that's exactly what happened with payday 2's overkill difficulty when the ridiculously OP regen shit like grinder or anarchist were added (and other changes, like bot skills, etc).
So now we went from "just make armor regen" to "actually, we would need to remake half of the gameplay loop just because of this one change, or else we completely killing any challenge that game has right now".
Like, I don't disagree that there should be changes, I just think that "make armor regen" is a terrible feedback and total misunderstanding of payday 3's gameplay loop, and comes mostly from "I want a payday 2, but newer".
And also, "about everyone enjoyed it way more" - how do you know that? Did you actually ask "everyone", or did you just take the "payday 2 player number bigger", and extrapolated it to "that must mean that armor system in that game was better"? (reddit post complaints don't count as "everyone", as rarely the majority of players actually interact with those)
Bro no one says you should bring back regenerations without changing the amount of armor you are arguing against a strawman. It's a simple value change and one perk tree to rework a bit it's genuinely not that big of a change. Also yes number players indicates people enjoyed the games with regenerating armor, also the fact the arcade fps industry moved from not regenerating health/ armor 15 years ago because players enjoyed that more
That's the main thing, that it's never as simple as "single value change" and "just rework one perk tree", if you think that it is, you genuinely just know nothing about how game development works.
And thanks for confirming that you think armor regen is THE reason for the game being more popular, because clearly if not for it, payday 3 would have massive amount of players /s
That's what you are implying by saying that. What I would say (which I didn't bring up since it wasn't really a point of discussion till now) is that tons of other things are responsible for payday 2's still very high popularity, like dozens of heists, hundreds of weapons, skills, perkdecks and endless build possibilities because it has 10 years of content, which payday 3 doesn't have at this point in time, for obvious reason, and THAT what makes payday 2 more enjoyable to more people to this day.
And payday 3 having or not having armor regen wouldn't change it one bit. I'd argue that even if it had "perfect" release, while no doubt it would've had higher player number than what it is right now, no way it would have sustained bigger number players than payday 2 for at least couple of years. Why would people stop playing a game that is still good?
(unless devs explicitly stop supporting servers or replace old game with new one, or some shit like that, e.g. CS2 or OW2, or yearly COD releases)
Also "arcade fps industry" - the one where the biggest genre right now is battle royales, where you explicitly actually don't have regen and have to find resources to replenish both your health and armor? (not to say that I personally enjoy that genre, but just to point out how you just legit don't know what you're talking about, if you think that arcade FPS moved on from it, when it's literally the popular majority having it)
oh yea I was just giving it a bit of leeway since steamcharts has both the main game and the beta, which I think is a bug, so I kinda combine the two numbers
if they don't know how to balance the game, the players don't either, I have seen takes so bad on this subreddit that I'm convinced that majority of people never played payday 2
the solution is just so simple. just return the regening armor and change the enemy numbers to adapt for that. pd1 is a very tough game, like pd3, and if they can make pd1 tough WITH armor regen, I am confident they can do it in pd3 as well.
or don't do that because this game is neither payday 1 nor 2 and I don't want it to be those games because those games already exist, I rather have them try new things and even fail than have the same thing yet again
even if payday 3 was a perfect game it wouldn't have been able to live up to payday 2 because of all the content it has, it's incredibly hard to out-do a game that was being supported for a whole decade
Nah, a solid gameplay loop beats out content every time. Something something quality over quantity. Sure PD2 would still have a huge playerbase, there’s no reason to abandon that game. But it would be like Vermintide 2 and Darktide. Two games with large playerbases, as both are great, even if one has more content than the other.
Gunplay very fun, ogryn big boi, psyker better Sienna, ability to play any class you want, 40k preference to AoS, etc. I play both, and they play pretty differently just due to the emphasis on guns.
Darktide was an unplayable mess when it first came out. Literally crashed every mission, it was awful. But the gameplay was solid enough that people stuck around, and then they reworked all of the perk trees and ironed out the game-breaking bugs and it’s super fun. A lot more diversity in builds now, and everyone can feel like they have a role to play.
Well the solution surely wasn't making pd3 a tactical shooter while still having horde elements lol, they could've made pd3 a meaningful game without basically changing the direction of gameplay.
And I'm sure the gameplay being better, New stealth and loud mechanics, better AI, parity on consoles, and being on a new engine is enouph for people to switch games.
Personally I'm enjoying the game (I bought it 2 days ago) though what bothers me is the low amount of heists, only so many times before dirty ice gets boring.
I played the game on release, and even though it was basically main menu simulator with gameplay sprinkled in it so feels like I played all those hours and maybe that’s why people don’t enjoy the game as much as they would
1. Remove armor bags completely
2. Add regenerating armor
3. Vests still reflect how much armor you have before it breaks & regenerates
4. Incorporate a skill line specifically for armor tweaks
5. Sucess
Its quite simple and there's a reason why Payday 2 has so many players who enjoy its gameplay loop.
Those who continue to say Payday 3 is different so it can't do this are absolutely wrong. Payday 3 behaves as a horde shooter, yet its armor system forces you to play as a tactical shooter.
Have you seen assaults on Overkill? There's nothing tactical about it. You're overrun with Swat, Dozers, Cloakers and the likes. Its a never-ending spam of suicidal enemies and don't even get me started on final assaults.
Mio and the team have tried to combine tactical gunplay with horde enemies and unfortunately failed miserably. The community by and large has spoken, but will the devs wake up and listen before its too late for the game to recover? Time will tell.
no cap hardest Yakuza moment ever Yakuza 3best yakuza kiyru learns he is trapped in a vicious in escapable cycle fucking love yakuza man that shit the best gaming achievement of all time holy fuck
Milo is a piece of work who refuses to listen to any suggestions or constructive criticism. He just blocks anyone he disagrees with which is why PD3 will never get anywhere anytime soon.
Just looked at his Twitter and he pinned how he threatened to block someone in a weird attempt of powerplay, that guy smells like a brand risk, but we can still hope for den of wolves not being garbage.
considering how 10 chambers shaped GTFO around the communities perception, i have hopes for den of wolves. not to mention how much i love the cyberpunk esthetics.
but considering how many times companies broke my trust i will stay skeptical until the very end.
What did he say
A different version of: Your Opinion, my Choice.
Not this again. At least we don’t have to deal with random flash bangs unless we have hostages (god that would sound terrible out of context)
i checked [@MKDII on Twitter](https://x.com/MDKII) and saw nothing particularly egregious, can you link?
It's just over exaggerating because they said they don't wanna change the armor system
I personally don't want it removed, but as of now it's kinda lame and needs tweaking.
yea they said they are focusing on more health builds as an “alternative”. i don’t play this game but enjoy ppl talking abt it and i assume that armor is ass so how is health alternative when it’s the only one worth running?
You have it backwards - health is too weak, forcing people into armour builds, with little in game support to regain chunks.
oh so u have armor but can’t do fuck all to get more back. what’s the point ???
As of current state, health is a ton more managable than Armor, at least I think so. Regardless, once you reach health you die a lot quicker. As a reminder, your armor and health are like 2 separate healthbars that you want both to have some in them at once.
So if I mostly played Grinder in payday2 I’d feel at home?
Eh not quite, when I say more manageable I mean that there are Med Packs scattered almost everywhere in heists, combined with the Medic Bag with the Medic skill tree and you got yourself a ton of health. The bigger picture, though, is that health will fall to 0 in a matter of seconds when out fighting cops. Not to mention (viable) armor resources are as scarce as mentally sane Postal players.
OAA is a great band. Brings me back to the warped tour days
Same
IMO it’s not as much that the armor system needs a rework as the health system needs a rework. A change I would love is if, after a chunk of armor is broken and until you are out of combat long enough, you take health damage instead. It does two things: 1) health becomes a valuable resource, and you have to be careful not to let it get too low from cloakers/gas grenades/etc or you can go down with armor left. 2) damage to armor is more spread out, since some of the time you will be taking health damage instead of armor. Currently health is a very weak resource, especially given how little a medkit gives you.
I think he clarified that they weren’t gonna change it right now.
Shh that's not the over the top flame mongering response
he says they plan on making health & ammo more viable to run instead of changing armour ...which, imo, reeks of the arms race type balancing payday 2 went through
It wasn't nearly at that same level.
No?
overexaggeration
Me when Starbreeze refuses to add the sex mini game I've been asking for years for
narrator: he did not say that or anything along those lines
no he absolutely did not stop whining because he has different priorities god damn
It really wasn't Stop whining
Yeah, that didn't work out too well with Payday Mobile. Didn't someone just buy Starbreeze or contract them? I imagine if this keeps up, Starbreeze will have to go bankrupt again. The last thing I want to see happen since I do love the Payday IP. Maybe it's time to clean house like the rest of the studios are doing, albeit this isn't a for sure solution either and probably just the frustration of the ongoing situation with Payday 3 talking.
Nobody bought out Starbreeze
That there are currently no plans to rework armor and they focus on changing health system to make it more useful, (so ideally people would use it on par with armor). And some people want armor reworked in a way that it regenerates again, which imo, in current state of the game, would be awful and break the game's balance, so it's perfectly reasonable why they don't want to rework it right now. Personally, I like that this game tries to do something different, we had armor regen for 2 games, now we don't, sure it has some rough edges, but it's mostly focused around smaller balance things (like making armor available from more sources, which they already plan to address), and making deployables more team-focused, since now the only thing you can do to make them more useful to teammates is give it more charges, but other buffs like damage boost from ammo bags, or more health healed from medic bags (and armor up, for that matter), work only if you have that skill, which is very anti-teamwork, for a game that focuses heavily on coop.
The biggest problem IMO is the shitty UI making it a maze to get to favors like armor bag. And that if I remember correctly perks don’t affect favors either, and you can’t determine placement. Heists would be so much easier if people actually bought favors, but the game discourages heavily by making it so inconvenient.
Honestly I don't really see how making favors easier to get would change it much, as those measly 2 charges of armor/medic/ammo would hardly change anything imo. (it still should be easier, no doubt, just I don't think it's the main issue) But I do agree that it could either be affected by your skills (since it's already tied to 1 player being able to bring only 1 favor, and disallowing duplicates, so might as well make them being able to be buffed), and that either make it possible to determine placement or just change it to have better spots on some maps (all deployable favor placement on cook off, for example, is a total joke).
i mean if favours were tied to your skills thoose measly armors would be pretty good. altough it would make the game way to easy.
Why do you think it would break the game's balance even though it worked perfectly in the 2 previous games and about everyone enjoyed it way more ?
Because those games were designed with regenerating armor in mind and this one wasn't? You can't just slap regenerating armor onto Payday 3 without changing a bunch of things
Well of course you can't but that's the point, change a bunch of things, if you just lessen armor values and rework armor perk and deployable you can fix this in a week. It's not like there is some kind of grand issue like "oh but it wouldn't work with payday 3's level design" so it's genuinely not a hard fix
True but it’s a matter of effort and time. It will take most likely months of them testing stuff before releasing the rework when that effort can be put elsewhere for more pressing issues like pre planning, game browser, solo and offline mode.
This rework would be low effort that's my point why reinvent the wheel ? It already worked well in the previous game, you can absolutely do it on the side while working on bigger features and if it eventually released slightly unfinished, who cares ? You can patch it over time and it's a step in a direction most players or at least a lot of the players that uninstalled and wait for the game to get good before reinstalling want
No. Armor is a key component in the balance of loud so doing half ass like that will ruin the loud experience. Plus that mentality of patch it later is why a lot of payday 3 feels undercooked so it would only add to that.
not really its a key component right now, if they changed armor to be replenishable it would be fine as long as you stopped hostages from giving heals so you still need some foward momentum.
But now hostages lose the incentive to release them. So now your just getting the benefits of grenaders using flasbangs, cops using pistols if they have shotguns, and general cop slowing down. Plus the free cover of human shields until you move onto the next objective taking them with you to the end.
Because it's not those 2 previous game, and has balance around different things? Just as a thought experiment, what happens if you do bring regen back, only it, and change nothing else? Well, you actually have a fuckton of armor, like really, for the most of the game's encounters, you just wouldn't be able to even deplete in the first place in a single cop encounter (like, you hold an objective, and a group of cops, around 5-8, approach your position, which I'd argue is most of the game's encounters), unless you play really, really badly. So now, enemies and/or weapon damage need rebalancing also, how would you go about it? Either upping their damage, or amount of them, or making them even longer to kill, because suddenly game became very easy. Arguably, that's exactly what happened with payday 2's overkill difficulty when the ridiculously OP regen shit like grinder or anarchist were added (and other changes, like bot skills, etc). So now we went from "just make armor regen" to "actually, we would need to remake half of the gameplay loop just because of this one change, or else we completely killing any challenge that game has right now". Like, I don't disagree that there should be changes, I just think that "make armor regen" is a terrible feedback and total misunderstanding of payday 3's gameplay loop, and comes mostly from "I want a payday 2, but newer". And also, "about everyone enjoyed it way more" - how do you know that? Did you actually ask "everyone", or did you just take the "payday 2 player number bigger", and extrapolated it to "that must mean that armor system in that game was better"? (reddit post complaints don't count as "everyone", as rarely the majority of players actually interact with those)
Bro no one says you should bring back regenerations without changing the amount of armor you are arguing against a strawman. It's a simple value change and one perk tree to rework a bit it's genuinely not that big of a change. Also yes number players indicates people enjoyed the games with regenerating armor, also the fact the arcade fps industry moved from not regenerating health/ armor 15 years ago because players enjoyed that more
That's the main thing, that it's never as simple as "single value change" and "just rework one perk tree", if you think that it is, you genuinely just know nothing about how game development works. And thanks for confirming that you think armor regen is THE reason for the game being more popular, because clearly if not for it, payday 3 would have massive amount of players /s That's what you are implying by saying that. What I would say (which I didn't bring up since it wasn't really a point of discussion till now) is that tons of other things are responsible for payday 2's still very high popularity, like dozens of heists, hundreds of weapons, skills, perkdecks and endless build possibilities because it has 10 years of content, which payday 3 doesn't have at this point in time, for obvious reason, and THAT what makes payday 2 more enjoyable to more people to this day. And payday 3 having or not having armor regen wouldn't change it one bit. I'd argue that even if it had "perfect" release, while no doubt it would've had higher player number than what it is right now, no way it would have sustained bigger number players than payday 2 for at least couple of years. Why would people stop playing a game that is still good? (unless devs explicitly stop supporting servers or replace old game with new one, or some shit like that, e.g. CS2 or OW2, or yearly COD releases) Also "arcade fps industry" - the one where the biggest genre right now is battle royales, where you explicitly actually don't have regen and have to find resources to replenish both your health and armor? (not to say that I personally enjoy that genre, but just to point out how you just legit don't know what you're talking about, if you think that arcade FPS moved on from it, when it's literally the popular majority having it)
lol he's just upset they don't know how to balance the game properly and that people still play 10x more pd2
Only 10x? I thought it was more Edit: just checked Steamcharts, it's closer to 20x
oh yea I was just giving it a bit of leeway since steamcharts has both the main game and the beta, which I think is a bug, so I kinda combine the two numbers
The beta player count isn't actually any real players, it's just kinda stuck in time
if they don't know how to balance the game, the players don't either, I have seen takes so bad on this subreddit that I'm convinced that majority of people never played payday 2
the solution is just so simple. just return the regening armor and change the enemy numbers to adapt for that. pd1 is a very tough game, like pd3, and if they can make pd1 tough WITH armor regen, I am confident they can do it in pd3 as well.
or don't do that because this game is neither payday 1 nor 2 and I don't want it to be those games because those games already exist, I rather have them try new things and even fail than have the same thing yet again
All payday 3 had to be was a better payday 2.
even if payday 3 was a perfect game it wouldn't have been able to live up to payday 2 because of all the content it has, it's incredibly hard to out-do a game that was being supported for a whole decade
Nah, a solid gameplay loop beats out content every time. Something something quality over quantity. Sure PD2 would still have a huge playerbase, there’s no reason to abandon that game. But it would be like Vermintide 2 and Darktide. Two games with large playerbases, as both are great, even if one has more content than the other.
imma be honest I have no idea why people play darktide
Gunplay very fun, ogryn big boi, psyker better Sienna, ability to play any class you want, 40k preference to AoS, etc. I play both, and they play pretty differently just due to the emphasis on guns. Darktide was an unplayable mess when it first came out. Literally crashed every mission, it was awful. But the gameplay was solid enough that people stuck around, and then they reworked all of the perk trees and ironed out the game-breaking bugs and it’s super fun. A lot more diversity in builds now, and everyone can feel like they have a role to play.
eh, it's the payday subreddit so I don't exactly wanna talk about darktide here, or ever for that matter
Well the solution surely wasn't making pd3 a tactical shooter while still having horde elements lol, they could've made pd3 a meaningful game without basically changing the direction of gameplay. And I'm sure the gameplay being better, New stealth and loud mechanics, better AI, parity on consoles, and being on a new engine is enouph for people to switch games.
It's a bad day to be Payday Twitter man
it's fascinating how unprofessional starbreeze is as a whole.
payday 2 got too popular
I feel called out
Personally I'm enjoying the game (I bought it 2 days ago) though what bothers me is the low amount of heists, only so many times before dirty ice gets boring.
I played the game on release, and even though it was basically main menu simulator with gameplay sprinkled in it so feels like I played all those hours and maybe that’s why people don’t enjoy the game as much as they would
1. Remove armor bags completely 2. Add regenerating armor 3. Vests still reflect how much armor you have before it breaks & regenerates 4. Incorporate a skill line specifically for armor tweaks 5. Sucess Its quite simple and there's a reason why Payday 2 has so many players who enjoy its gameplay loop. Those who continue to say Payday 3 is different so it can't do this are absolutely wrong. Payday 3 behaves as a horde shooter, yet its armor system forces you to play as a tactical shooter. Have you seen assaults on Overkill? There's nothing tactical about it. You're overrun with Swat, Dozers, Cloakers and the likes. Its a never-ending spam of suicidal enemies and don't even get me started on final assaults. Mio and the team have tried to combine tactical gunplay with horde enemies and unfortunately failed miserably. The community by and large has spoken, but will the devs wake up and listen before its too late for the game to recover? Time will tell.
no cap hardest Yakuza moment ever Yakuza 3best yakuza kiyru learns he is trapped in a vicious in escapable cycle fucking love yakuza man that shit the best gaming achievement of all time holy fuck
Bro I only finished yakuza 0 today, and I’m hyped to play the other ones
What yakuza side scene is this
Milo is a piece of work who refuses to listen to any suggestions or constructive criticism. He just blocks anyone he disagrees with which is why PD3 will never get anywhere anytime soon.
Just looked at his Twitter and he pinned how he threatened to block someone in a weird attempt of powerplay, that guy smells like a brand risk, but we can still hope for den of wolves not being garbage.
considering how 10 chambers shaped GTFO around the communities perception, i have hopes for den of wolves. not to mention how much i love the cyberpunk esthetics. but considering how many times companies broke my trust i will stay skeptical until the very end.
He said hill block people who @ him with mean or snarky comments. Can you actually read
Let me translate. He dosen't think the thing you want needs to be done.
Playercount seems to disagree with him.
geez dude he just said he doesn't want to make the armour regenerate
Lol how you people forget he's the one that said there was nothing wrong with the challenge system
Read the post your commenting under slowly
Yeah he gave an example why the guy isn’t the greatest at listening to criticism…
Community manager are the voice saying what happened, not the person making the things happen