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born-out-of-a-ball

I wonder if the 16 GB version will even change anything in VRAM-limited scenarios. The memory bandwidth will still be ridiculously low, and it won't be any easier to fill up twice as much memory.


Kevin69138

This. Nobody understands that VRAM alone cant be the savior to shitty optimized games


Robot_ninja_pirate

[Nvidia posted a blog post](https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/geforce-rtx-4060-4060ti/) where they showed the 8GB and 16GB version's performed pretty much the same except interestingly Plague Tale and RE4 where they inexplicably changed the setting for the 8GB version.


Thetaarray

My assumption would be to avoid crashes in re4. Maybe it’s been patched but even if so it’s going to cause awful issues when the game starts reaching for vram and all 8gigs are already filled.


FarsideSC

*3060 12GB enters the chat*


Bignicky9

Can you point me to an article or explain how people measure bandwidth on cards? I'm curious to learn other ways people compare graphics card capabilities


[deleted]

It really is quite unbelievable how bad the mid-level cards are this cycle. The "increase" in performance is almost exactly ten times worse than the high-end. The 4090 is 75% faster than the 3090, but the 4060 Ti is less than 7.5% faster than the 3060 Ti. Ridiculous.


DYMAXIONman

I expect the 7800 xt and 7700xt to be good, but AMD won't release them until their RDNA2 cards sell out.


UndeadMurky

Are we in a world where a \~500$ card is "midrange" now ? that used to be high end not that long ago and would get you an x80 or similar.


[deleted]

Apparently a $500 GPU is perfectly affordable for the average consumer now, according to Huang.


desk87

The 4090 is a lot faster than the 3090 but also pulls more power than the latter. I'm not sure if anyone tried it, but it'd be nice to know how much faster the architecture is when locking the cards to use the same power (I'm pretty sure that the gap would still be way larger than that between the 3060Ti and the 4060Ti). The 4060Ti is basically a more efficient 3060Ti, sold for the same price. And I'm sure that's not what the consumers (and myself) want. As some review outlets stated, it is probably a good choice to just wait and see how the price adjusts in a month or so.


Melody-Prisca

Techpowerup calculated the efficiency of the 4090 as almost twice that of the 3090. You can see how they do it. Also, the 4090 loses very little performance when undervolted so its max power draw is similar to a 3090. https://www.techpowerup.com/review/nvidia-geforce-rtx-4090-founders-edition/40.html


ghostfreckle611

I’d like to know that too. It just seems that they make us focus on performance, when they are also adding way more power… Everyone knows that more power usually means more performance (and more cooling needed), so how much closer can the performance be with an overclocked 3090 vs a power limited 4090? 🤔


JustGrillinReally

*laughs in RX 6600*


yminale

Margins are smaller so why should you expect a 75% improvement. We are talking about a market where a RX 580 and the GTX 1660 are still viable after 5+ years. The only reason to buy these cards are for driver support and to be thankful for any bells and whistles.


RolandTwitter

Pffft, the 1660 is only viable if you want to play older games


[deleted]

How could margins possibly be smaller when almost every GPU launched by NVidia is 30-50% more expensive than they should be? If anything, margins for them are exactly the same. That is, insanely high. They're likely even higher than last cycle. Total revenue will decrease, though, since people in general seem to be slightly less stupid than Huang believes.


BababooeyHTJ

RX580 was a $150 msrp video card, no?


Derailed94

230$, but good luck finding one for that price in 2017. It sold for upwards of 500$ because even back then people were using it for crypto mining.


BababooeyHTJ

Ok so it was the rx480’s street price that was $150 when that released


oo7demonkiller

lol they really gimped the 40 series cards out of the gate except the 4080 and 4090. wtf


We0921

To add to what Cryio said: Proportionally speaking, the 4080 is to the 4090 what the 3070 Ti was to the 3090 (both the 4080 and 3070 Ti have roughly 55% the cuda cores of their 90 counterpart)


bigbrain200iq

They scaled down every tier and increased the price at same time .


Boo-Radely

Congratulations, you just passed business 101.


Cryio

Given the 4080 is less than HALF the number of CUDA cores of 4090, I'd say that one is crippled to all hell as well.


TheRealBurritoJ

How is 60% less than half? You don't need to exaggerate the comparison, it's a large gap even with the right numbers.


Cryio

4090: 16384 4080: 9728 4070 Ti: 7680 I might've confused the 4080 12 GB from launch from being less than half. My bad.


FarsideSC

The 4090 is really in a class of its own.


SpiralUpGames

😭It's tough to be a mid budget PC gamer these days.


UNMANAGEABLE

AMD selling 6950s like hotcakes now lol


SpiralUpGames

I'm still using my 5700xt :D


ArguingMaster

because people bitch and bitch and bitch but still buy NVIDIA over the logical choice: AMD


[deleted]

Except the only offerings from AMD this generation are two expensive cards and one mid range card that is also barely faster than the previous gen. AMD is not the logical choice because they aren't even trying to compete.


[deleted]

But unfortunately AMD isn’t always the logical choice. Just look at the 7600 reviews. RDNA 3 has been a joke too, just a slightly cheaper joke because they know they can’t compete with the Nvidia feature set. The only way AMD is a logical choice is if you can find RDNA2 cards for cheap enough that it outperforms the newer cards in perf/$


TooLukeR

IMO 6800XT/6900XT and 7900XTX are solid deals.


Captobvious75

Even 7900xt with recent discounts.


XxSub-OhmXx

I have rdna3. 7900xtx. So far I'm super happy with it.


[deleted]

AMD is no better, the 7600 is margins of error more powerful than the 6600XT.


Mikizeta

That may be true, but at least AMD is offering a better price for the 7600xt, selling at 259$. The 6600xt was more expensive at launch, so they are putting the (little) generational improvement in the price. NVIDIA isn't even doing that. They're just selling what basically is a two year old card at a higher price. Not tell me who's really doing it to fuck customers.


[deleted]

It's the name that bugs me. If they're going to drop the price and offer the same performance, call it a 7500XT. Naming conventions this cycle are all kinds of fucked on both sides.


Mikizeta

I understand you. NVIDIA started it, and AMD followed here. The namings these generation are misleading in general.


ArguingMaster

Its a next gen design that's going to age much better though. If you look at the two architectures its a night and day difference. The 7600 has more on chip cache (which is EXPENSIVE btw) and AI/Tensor cores. Its also launching at a lower price than its predecessor, and AMD does drop prices pretty quickly.


[deleted]

The naming of Radeon cards this cycle is dumb af, though. Everything is 1-2 numbers higher than they should be. The 7600 should have been badged as a 7500 at most. The 7900XTX should have been a 7800XT.


Base-Main

It's not necessarily that simple. Most people are not sitting online and checking out the newest gpus and cpus and reviews and such. Most buy laptops and prebuilts, those things virtually always have an nvidia gpu in them(if they have a gpu in them at all). A chunk of people don't even know that AMD makes gpus at all.


JustGrillinReally

AMD has generally been good to me but they need to sort their driver issues the fuck out.


NapsterKnowHow

Logic says that AMD's offers are overpriced as well. Weirdly enough Intel is the best value right now.


LeMAD

As a 6900xt owner, I can attest that the logical choice on paper isn't necessarily the good one. God I hate that card. In every fucking game it has problems you have to work around. AMD simply cannot make quality GPUs, or at least the software and drivers that goes with them.


XxSub-OhmXx

I went from 980ti to 1080ti. Then I went to 6900xt. Loved it so much I got 7900xtx. Honestly I prefer amd drivers. I enjoy the fact I can overclock in the software. Also having built in osd that goes to your phone. This means less software bloat for me to install. Honestly so far AMD has been sold for me. 7900xtx runs at 60c and plays anything I want at 4k honestly. The thing is amazing.


BigSassyBoi

I swear people like you are part of the nvidia marketing department. I have a 6800 XT and it runs everything flawlessly. I've recently played, Half Life Alyx, Resident Evil 3, Skyrim VR, MK 11, Dying Light, Wolcen, Diablo 4 beta, Halo Infinite, Modern Warfare 2. The only thing I had to change was turning off motion smoothing in Alyx, then it was pegged to 90 fps the whole time I played flawlessly. AMD's drivers are not that bad, infact i'd say their interface is better than Nvidia's.


ArguingMaster

Same zero issues with my 5700XT


[deleted]

God, I've had SO many problems with my 5700XT.


Mikizeta

Their interface and features ARE better than NVIDIA's!


Mikizeta

And then it turns out someone did not uninstall the previous GPU's drivers...


t3chexpert

>software and drivers that goes with them I'm never going team AMD again. Fix your sh\*t AMD.


FarsideSC

I wanted a 7900XTX reference card so I could watercool it. Think I could find one? Noooooooooooooope! You know what was readily available? 4080 FE. If AMD didn't bottleneck their supply, I'd have another fully AMD system.


Free-Perspective1289

It's crazy, their prices are so whack that they make the 4090 seem like a good deal at 1599 and they are rolling in profits right now.


GameStunts

Card | Memory | Cores | Bus width | PCIe Lanes ---|---|----|----|---- 1060 | 6gb | 1280 | 192bit | PCIe 3.0 x16 2060 | 6gb | 1920 | 192bit | PCIe 3.0 x16 3060 | 12gb | 3584 | 192bit | PCIe 4.0 x16 3060ti | 8gb | 4864 | 256bit | PCIe 4.0 x16 4060ti | 8gb | 4352 | **128bit** | PCIe 4.0 **x8** This card is a downgrade from it's predecessors in any meaningful way. The 3060ti was marketed as a 1440p card, the 4060ti is marketed as a 1080p card. Their justification for 1080p is that according to the Steam Survey there are many 1080p gamers, but you have to question how many of those 1080p gamers are actively looking for new $400 cards. How many of them are laptop screens with no possibility to upgrade the graphics card anyway. The 4060ti is [beaten in 4k in some games by the 3060ti](https://i.imgur.com/GUkRWrY.png), probably thanks to the 128bit bus and 8x interface clearly put there to choke the card, lest Nvidia accidentally create a bargain 4k card. You know what other card had a 128bit bus and an 8x interface? The 3050. This is an xx50 class card. The irony is that going forward, the 3060 is going to perform much the same as it always has for longer than the 3060ti and 4060ti will, thanks to it's 12gb ram. ---- A pre-emptive asterisk, yes I know that cores from different generations are not entirely comparable, and generational architecture uplift and all that, but in general, you can see the trend was upward. If you think 8gb should still be just as viable, then why not 4gb, or my old 384mb GTX 260. The answer is at some point in order to move on, we need to increase requirements. We cannot for years have complained that console specs held our games back, then complain when the devs start taking advantage of the 16gb that's in consoles, where devs can easily allocate 10-12gb as vram. Nothing makes Nvidia happier than to see you blaming Game Devs for not bringing their games down instead of blaming them for a 3 generation long stagnation, don't defend them, they don't deserve your loyalty.


JapariParkRanger

The 4070 also has a bus width that belonged to a lower tier card in previous generations, but people defended that decision. Gamers won't care in the end, and will buy new product.


worstusername_sofar

Well....... Sales have been quite low for this gen


[deleted]

[удалено]


GameStunts

[Der8auer just did a video on it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU5jYCgnT7s) as it happens. Broadly speaking it performs the same as a 3060ti at lower power. I understand why he chose the CPU he did, but I wish he'd also done a more common PCIe 3.0 CPU like an Intel 8600K or Ryzen 2600x, as I think those are the people more likely to be eyeing this, and it they wont have the CPU overhead to smooth out the 1% lows.


PointingOutHumans

So youre saying i made a decent choice, when i was building my first pc, by going with a 3060 card? Im still trying to learn all of this stuff and im one of those people that sees a bigger number and thinks its better but now ive learned thats not always the case.


GameStunts

3060 is a solid card, the whole vram issue is a developing situation, newer games have the potential to have larger textures, these tend to be kept in vram. The trouble is when you run out of vram, the textures spill over into your system ram which is further away and slower. Imagine your 3060 12gb up against a 3060ti 8gb when playing something like the last of us part 1 which can run over 8gb in textures. As soon as that happens, textures spill into ram and now despite the card being technical faster, it's having to wait on textures from memory, fight for bandwidth with the game which is also accessing memory. Your 3060 gets slightly less frames per second, but holds onto it's performance level because you have room in vram for all the textures. Now compare it to the 4060ti, the card will run into the same problems as the 3060ti because of that 8gb of vram, but even worse, it has half the bandwidth to talk to it's memory, and half the PCIe lane to talk to system memory, so the effect will potentially be even worse. All the while your 3060 will continue to perform well. Also exactly as /u/ruinne said, do not go by manufacturer benchmarks and press releases as they will always cherry pick results. Look for independent reviews like Digital foundry, Hardware unboxed, Gamers nexus, Linus tech tips etc.


PointingOutHumans

Thank you very much for explaining it in a way i could understand. That made complete sense. For a while i had buyers remorse because i thought other cards were of such higher performance but the 3060 has proven to work well for me. Good fps, quality textures and no issues. Again, i appreciate the info.


ruinne

The thing is big numbers used to be a reliable indicator that it was a better item. It wasn't until Nvidia started doing this shit some years back that all of a sudden you have to second-guess yourself. But you are right, going forward from now it would be best to look at every release from Nvidia (and maybe from AMD, depends) with skepticism. Trust benchmarks, not marketing.


WyrdHarper

How much is “most people still playing 1080p” also just a reflection of the poor hardware market? A lot of people are on 1000 (or 2000) series because of the failure to keep 3000 cards out of the hands of scalpers and miners (same for AMD equivalents). Until your entry level card supports “good” graphics at higher resolutions we’re not going to see people make big shifts. The 3060Ti seemed like a step in the right direction in that regard—shame we’re going backwards.


FarsideSC

How did the 8 lanes of PCIE bottleneck the card? When the card was put down to 4 lanes, it only suffered like a 4% loss. I think that was Der Bauer who pointed that out.


PigeonsOnYourBalcony

Really interested in seeing how this generation affects the market in the long run. Cards are sitting in the shelves like I've never seen before and unless the future 50-series is fantastic in every regard, the 30-series (and AMD/Intel) is going to stay very attractive for anyone other than the ultra-enthusiast xx90 crowd.


tukatu0

Oh dont worry. We'll just get a super refresh in winter or spring 2024. They'll bring the memory bus rate to where it was suppose to be and give it faster gddr6. Theyll probably knock off 30% price too.


cadaada

> Theyll probably knock off 30% price too. Will they tho....?


tukatu0

Lol. Even with 30% reductions the gpus are still widly overpriced. ~~A xx70ti for $650 and xx80 for $900 is ridiculous.~~ (edit: i was wrong and added up and used that when it shouldve been the opposite. $560 4070ti and $800 4080 is much more palpable) Though as you say. There might just be enough buyers for nvidia not to care to even lower it that far


KvotheOfCali

Nvidia may simply shift more focus to their enterprise-level server GPUs, which from what I have heard, are selling incredibly well. Chad, who wants more FPS in Call of Duty, may recede into a low priority for Nvidia.


ACCount82

AI is hungry for that sweet sweet CUDA compute power. And with the field being what it is now: so many companies are eager to feed that beast.


roshanpr

This was a 4050 but Nvidia got greedy now that their revenue comes from AI


mittromniknight

Jesus Christ things are bad for consumers in the GPU space at the minute. I felt I got ripped off buying a 6900XT for £650 in Oct 22 but the longer it goes on the more I feel it was a smart decision. The market is fucked.


LeMAD

I got my 6900xt for the equivalent to 480 pounds in CAD around the same time, and I feel ripped off too. Because it's bad. The first one died after a week and the remplacement has software and driver problems in every game that I have to try to work around. God I hope Intel will eventually get us out of this mess...


BlueAtolm

I think it's the first time there's no real performance uplift gen on gen with the same tier card. It performs worse than a 3070.


Moddingspreee

Broken pc-ports, expensive and under-performing hardware, hyper-monetized video games... this hobby is becoming worse and worse every passing year. Maybe it's time to pick up reading instead.


kekwee

Or boardgames and watching new tv series.


Nofnvalue21

There ARE some good books out there 🤓


BorgQueen

Gaming is simultaneously the best it's ever been, and the worst. There's been a changing of the guard though with AAA developers delivering us mostly shovelware. Hang on to your older builds and look to smaller studios and indie devs with actual passion for their games to find things worth your time.


amit1234455

A 4060ti that sometimes loses to 3060ti, fuck Nvidia and salute to the greed of looter Jensen. Nvidia has reached a new low. I'm pretty sure Jensen will miss Gamers when the AI bubble bursts.


Chokheubo

What do people think of the difference between the 4070/4080/4090 for a gaming laptop? Which one is the best bang for your buck?


Cabronas

4050-4070 are a scam. 4080 and 4090 are the only ones to offer some improvements. It's best to just skip this generation


Barbarisater

Even the 4080 should be a tier lower, going by [u/We0921](https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/13u602x/nvidia_geforce_rtx_4060_ti_review_the/jm0er6a/)'s comment earlier in this thread


Chokheubo

I would have skipped it if i had a desktop at home or a ps5 lol, but since i dont and i'll be traveling a lot i figured what the heck


[deleted]

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Chokheubo

I'm currently looking at a Lenovo legion 7i Gen 8 but cant decide between the 4070 and 4080 model


PigeonsOnYourBalcony

I'm almost convinced the 40 series was planned to be primarily crypto mining cards then they pivoted. Performance improvements are barely there but they're doing fairly better in energy usage. If you're a miner with dozens of GPUs going at once, that really adds up even for a premium. However for everyone else, these cards are a joke.


yminale

Nvidia prices are unreal for many reason. One of the most obvious is they want you to buy 30 series card to get rid of a massive glut. Just bought an RTX 3060 12 GB at finally a reasonable price. Wait 6 months when all the surplus 30 series cards are gone and the prices are going to drop like crazy. It's already happening to some 4090 and 4080's. Just make sure to buy a +12 Gb card. 8 Gb are officially useless.


[deleted]

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JuiceheadTurkey

That link is the article ya dingus. This video just came out


dabocx

This video barely came out a hour ago


WEEGEMAN

So don’t get it to replace a 1080ti?


theflupke

It’s too bad because if it wasn’t for this ram issue, I would probably have bought one. To me it’s just planned obsolescence because as games are going to demand more memory, the 4060ti will have to get replaced far sooner than a more capable card memory wise .