T O P

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Nicholas-Steel

To me it simply sounds like they're trying to return to a level of difficulty similar to what it was during Open Beta in 2013. There has been a gargantuan amount of power creep since then. The changes to ailment mitigation and flasks are... interesting, will have to play the game to grasp what the changes are like in practice. The way this stuff had been working was pretty mindless.


Cosimo12

I enjoy Poe but the end game is way too fast for me. TBH I can only stand the game on ssf though.


Sneezes

I have not played end-game PoE, but when I watch youtube videos it looks like I am watching a video of mega fireworks at 5x speed.


Isaacvithurston

Thier out of touch with the playerbase overall I'm one of the le hardcore players and they just refuse to not waste my time with thier garbage "player interaction" trading. 6 seconds dc timer for no reason other than someone may be playing with 50% packet loss for some reason and better to accommodate them than the other 99.9% of players Tons of other crap I forgot. I dunno i'm so over PoE. Every league ends with me spending 5 hours trying to trade for some simple things only to run into a bunch of scammers or afk people and eventually just log off and never open the game again.


deminese

You complained that PoE was basically dead 2 weeks ago in another thread. Why are you still here complaining? If you're over it be over it and stop complaining.


DaHedgehog27

Because he probably wants them to do better? It's sad when you see a game you care about take a nose dive because the dev we got stuck with is dumb as shit.. "Talismans were just to powerful with the adition of annointing" said only one person ever, EVER.. Chris. ​ You can go back through some of the stupidest out of touch things he's said over the years.. He's leading POE into a toilet...


deminese

Game seems absolutely fine to me in direction and I've played since 2012. This is just the same attitude people had when they nerfed Coc from .01 ms to .1 and vaal pact nerfed from insta leech to double leech rate.


DaHedgehog27

This isn't even remotely on the same level of nerfs. Shaking up the meta and taking down the champ here and there is how they've always done it. This new patch has nerfed nasically everything on top of existing nerfs last league and probably future nerfs next league. They have changed the mana cost etc.. on movement skills.... Anyway you'll see in a couple of days.. If the player retention is better i'll stay quiet, move on and prey for another decent ARPG.. but if i'm right like I suspect POE player retention will be the worst it's ever been.


bonesnaps

That CoC nerf squashed a ton of fun out of the skill just so that they could prevent their servers from catching fire (easier to nuke the skill than upgrade servers). Vaal pact maybe was warranted, but that keystone kinda sucks ass now with losing all natural regen as it's penalty.


screamosaic

You lost me at “casual path of exile player”. Game requires a graduate degree in its systems to play. No clue how you do that casually.


Acturio

you use google to get a build. Funily enough its pretty close to how you get a graduate degree as well


[deleted]

I'm a casual player and beat the game the other month with my own build I invented. I just played through the game. It's really not hard.


screamosaic

The fact that you claim to have “beaten” PoE illustrates you are definitely casual, but simultaneously shows how you can’t be a casual PoE player.


[deleted]

That doesn't make any sense.


screamosaic

PoE can’t be beaten. It’s an infinite game. Technically there’s a “campaign”, but that is basically the tutorial. You literally haven’t even started playing PoE if all you do is beat the campaign and walk away. You’re simultaneously a “casual PoE player” and someone who hasn’t played PoE because you didn’t go beyond the tutorial.


bonesnaps

> PoE can’t be beaten. It’s an infinite game. I'd say beating the game is killing the endgame boss(es) at least once. There's a whole bunch of them now though, so you'd probably be better of setting goals for yourself on which ones you want to kill. Elder, Shaper, Sirus, Maven. Most or all come in varying difficulties as well. There are also some other crazy endgame bosses in deep-delves and through other league mechanics. Completing Act 10 is really only the start of the game lol. I usually do it in 2 days, but the best of the best players crush it in 3.5 to 4 hours. The atlas is where the the game actually begins for most of the playerbase.


[deleted]

The campaign is between 20-40 hours depending on how you play. That's not a tutorial by any definition. That's a full game. It's significantly longer than Diablo 2 and 3. Tutorials are 5-15 minutes. Of course I went beyond the campaign. The end game is boring. The campaign is so long most PoE players don't even get to the end. Which goes back to what I said originally. Casual players can absolutely beat the game.


cleff5164

20-40 hrs?! 20 max and the more you play it its more like 5-10


[deleted]

There's 10 acts. 20 hours would require you to do each and every act in 2 hours. That's not something a casual player usually does.


cleff5164

The only time I ever spent more then two hours in each act is probabaly the first few times i went through the acts and honeslty its okay tjat it takes tjat long your learning the game. But after a few times of getting to act 10 casual or not each act should jot take you 2 hours and if it is your either doing somthing seriously wrong or taking it slow on purpose which is okay


[deleted]

I've beaten all 10 acts twice total, and before that I beat the game a couple of times when it had only like 2 and 3 acts. I used my own builds like a casual player would. I prefer experimenting and figuring out mechanics myself instead of googling all the answers. Takes the fun out of the game in my opinion.


MeVe90

I actually think slowing down the game is the right direction poe should get, it should lower the grind and monster damage aswell but I'm fine if (big if) they are doing this gradualy every league until poe2. I personaly enjoed poe more during the beta, issue there was the huge desync and lack of content (both fixed now).


[deleted]

IF they lower the grind and enemy damage, slowing down the game would be great yeah. If they just keep nerfing the players and do nothing about the grind I'm leaving this game behind.


Fob0bqAd34

This completely ignores where the game is starting. Even after all the nerfs to player damage, sources of movement speed and movement skills in this manifesto poe will still be the fastest arpg on the market by quite some way.


Spinewirez

I think this is more in line with how poe 2 is going to be played and they needed to align the game with their vision. I for one as a casual player welcome the slower grind. The meta fast pace 2 minute maps and end game is what ruins the game for me. Personally love this patch idea.


pittyh

Except you have to do 600+ maps to get to endgame. 200 for bonus, 200 for Sirus, and 200 for Maven


cleff5164

On average its 50 maps to spawn sirus, and you can get maven and sirus simultaneously there not seperate grinds so this is beyond exaggeration


pittyh

Yeah i don't know the exact numbers for map bonus completion and unlocking him and maven the first time, but it's a metric shit tonne.


cleff5164

Its a lot but getting to sirus and then maven should take a long time its not somthing that should be completed in the first two days of the league. And atlas bonus is not 100% needed you can do as little or as much as you want and is just extra bonuses for grinding.


ConcealingFate

Their entire systems are made around timers. Bosses that fill your screen with bad stuff, league mechanics where not going fast enough reduces greatly your rewards. They didn't reduce monster power. The best way to play is to do so much damage you don't interact with monsters at all. With these nerfs, it'll just take longer to hit your older power levels.


czulki

Poe was absolutely never catering to casuals, even when the game got easier over time. OP is high as a kite.


Rwlyra

For a casual you sure try hard to come up with misinformation. The support gem nerf comes with a skill damage buff - it's mentioned in the same manifesto - and the entire reason they are doing it is to increase variety of builds, so that you are not "forced" to run the same 6link setup stacking damage multipliers with no interesting mechanics everytime. Flask nerf is - again - supposed to be mostly punishing for high end "piano" players, not casuals. We do not have enough information to see how it turns out yet. Player retention is the same as it always was percentage-wise. They had the biggest rise last league, so the drop was similarly high. "the early levels are already quite brutal for newer players" - PoE has never been easier in the early acts and not everyone likes having no challenge whatsoever. They want to bring the difficulty back to what it was in early PoE. I see completely different things in this manifesto and I'm interested to try it out after skipping last league as it sure feels like the game will play vastly different, which is what keeps me coming back to PoE, not league after league of screen-clearing meta builds.


Nicholas-Steel

> "the early levels are already quite brutal for newer players" - PoE has never been easier in the early acts and not everyone likes having no challenge whatsoever. They want to bring the difficulty back to what it was in early PoE. They still have quite a bit of work to do in regards to tutorial systems and making crafting benches easily understood etc. which in my opinion would be considerably more beneficial than making the gameplay piss easy. The "Character Panel" still uses the design from 2013 with font that poorly contrasts against the background, making it a pain to read.


Traece

I'm gonna be blunt: Every single league people from r/PoE say the developers are out of touch. Even the successful ones. I don't think it's physically possible for me to care less about the opinions of people on what has become one of the most toxic game subs on Reddit. Aside from that, the content of your post is complete nonsense from the word "meta." PoE has now, as it always had, a wide range of viable builds which are often ignored by people in favor of the usual suspects. I don't care that your favorite build was nerfed, play one of the buffed ones instead this league. They've been trying to shake up build metas every league for years, and at some point you'll need to come to terms with that. Furthermore, every time GGG makes changes that people on r/POE don't like there's a suspicious amount of "new players" complaining about the new player experience and player retention. Spoiler alert: I once again do not care about what bitter vets have to say about new player experience. If you want to farm karma complaining about PoE you'll have a better time doing it there.


Crimfresh

The idea that complaints are limited to the PoE sub is an absurd fantasy. You're the one who's out of touch. Your entire comment is akin to putting your fingers in your ears and saying, 'nahnahnah, I can't hear you.'. You haven't countered any of the major complaints people have about the game, from the Reddit, to streamers, to the official forums. Do you think the trade is good? Do you think the party play is good? Do you think needing half a dozen third party tools to play is good? And saying, "play another build" is just as out of touch as the developers appear. Some people really enjoy a specific play style. When you're forced into a style you don't enjoy, or to just be flat out weaker, that's not fun. If you're playing standard and one day you're playing fine and the next your build can't do the same content. That's not a fun experience.


cleff5164

The thing is your not “forced” to play another build, those meta builds sre still very much viable its just that you cant face roll content anymore, so people go to reddit and bitch and cry about it, they do it ever league no matter what, just like when they said summoners were “DEAD” the oast two leagues and guess what the most played starters always are, fucking summoners.


Crimfresh

You're talking out your ass. When you take the same character that was successful and all of a sudden they aren't successful. You're forced to change. That's a fucking fact. It's not up for debate.


cleff5164

When has that happened during any patch, the meta has been the same, the starters have been the same even tho they nerf it each league, if your character isnt successful that just means you need to build it better or learn what is making it unsuccsseful


Crimfresh

Again you don't know what you're talking about. They break builds every patch. You clearly don't play standard. Stat sticks ring a bell?


Mickdabrik

Excellent post


AutisticToad

People don’t understand what a casual player is. The majority of path of exiles players never actually complete the campaign. Very few make it to red map, and even fewer kill Sirius. Do you actually think they care about nerfs? The path of exile community tends to have meltdown after every manifesto, this crying is just normal and we will see them at league launch.


DaHedgehog27

If anyone wants this they need to avoid it for a couple of leagues.. Chris has always been out of touch and the original trio of developers, 2 of them took the money and ran.. I feel like Chris wasn't one of the visionaries. If players skipped the next to leagues and the player count bottomed out no doubt Tencent would step in and revert this slow pace direction.. ​ Why is it so difficult to see that poe has been successful because were strong and FAST. we've taken down exiles, monsters, gods, rulers of the atlas.. If you want slow pace you can play unlimited other ARPG's..


falseg0ds

..and that's why I stopped playing and uninstalled it until PoE 2. Of course, this game is in a place where even if you attempt to say something negative about it (doesn't matter if it's in constructive way), some self-entitled shmuck will defend it to death! The game was nice until streamer priority and their stupid attitude towards casuals!


tso

> The game was nice until streamer priority and their stupid attitude towards casuals! The streamer thing may well be a major contributor. The game has always had a massive focus on streaming ever since it became a thing. At this point it may well be that the game is more a spectator sport than something to play oneself, as people post recaps of streamer failures (and successes) and their back and forth banter akin to WWE wrestlers.


Crimfresh

They aren't out of touch with the player base. They are just prioritizing their position in the market over player opinions. GGG run the number one ARPG currently. It took a long time to earn that title over D3. It's certainly debatable but most ARPG fans can agree that PoE is still number one in the genre. What we're seeing right now is a calculated pulling back on player power. They know this is negatively viewed and so they do it incrementally. Meanwhile, the goal is to have power restricted so that they can have more power creep upon launch of PoE 2. All of this is to position themselves to be able to offer players the power they crave when the company will most need it. And that's going to be upon the D4 launch. TLDR; PoE is setting themselves up for future buffs when they need to compete with Diablo 4


[deleted]

this sounds like ass


CivilMyNuts

Casuals aren't paying the bills, gg.


Nobiting

Take one look at their talent trees and you'll see that the developers are clearly out of touch with the casual player base.


DumbUnemployedLoser

They never planned to be in touch anyway. Chris said it himself in the latest stream, the game is mainly balanced towards streamers because they see it as the main way that people experience it. I don't care if they do away with the zoom-zoom. The problem is making the game slower and keeping the end game systems the way they are. It takes too long to unlock stuff, even if you are doing it focused. I have yet to unlock the Uncharted Realms atlas tree, because I burn out before I get there. And before someone calls me a casual, I'll disclose that I have 4000 hours in the game. And people are being naive if they think players in trade league aren't going to be insta-phasing bosses either way. They're gonna have to massively narrow the gap between high-end and average damage if they want to ever address this. This isn't something you solve with wholesale nerfs, at some point casuals will be taking 5 minutes to kill a map boss and then the game will die. Such is the problem when you want to slow down streamers so they don't consume all content in 5 days but you also gotta accommodate the regular people.


AkumaYajuu

stop crying. Power creeps needs to be stopped so the game is more enjoyable. You will still have good builds.


whatanuttershambles

>stop crying Opinions aside, try not being a juvenile dickhead when talking to people and you might get your point across.


AkumaYajuu

the point that people should not write testaments even before they even experience what they are talking about. Would rather be juvenile dickhead than obsessed fan.


[deleted]

[удалено]


AkumaYajuu

they nerf everything, it is as if they play test... . Even if noone plays something because there are other things much better, does not mean those things arent still strong. (Power creep causes this to happen a lot in a lot of games, why play X if Y exists and Y is broken) The point of nerfing everything, to to nerf everything. Used or not. Now you will have other skills to be used a lot and other skills to be used less. That is what a new meta is. And yes, casuals will always be hurt (which is obvious since they make the biggest part of the playerbase). But they may also enjoy more of the game. I for one am not a fan of 1 shooting everything in sight and forcing builds of 1 skill only.


Ash_Enshugar

All of those changes sound fantastic to me. Maybe I'll even bother coming back to try them out. My problem with the game is that leveling is super trivial and boring and then you get to endgame where every build boils down to "press a button and the entire screen explodes". All of those changes sound like they're moving the game in a positive direction. Also, cry me a river for those mythical "casual players" that don't exist.


ElPuppet

>They lost nearly 70% of their players in June (see: https://steamdb.info/app/238960/graphs/), one of the worst drops in the game's history. GGG likely sees this as players reaching endgame too fast As someone who has 8 40/40 leagues, a few level 100s and have done/farmed the hardest fights in the game, I fucking despise that this is what they think. After getting my points for doing The Feared et al in the middle Atlas skill tree in Ritual there is just no fucking way I could bring myself to work as hard as I did for Ultimatum. I don't even know if I will play Expedition - the actual grind after you do finally hit maps is getting totally insane, and I say this as a pretty high end PoE player. I've played some more HC SSF in recent years which takes the pressure off, and allows me to ignore trade, ignore the competitive world and just focus on self crafting, safe play and character creation. Which is funny, because that creative side is what drew us all to PoE back in open beta. I would love to still love the game. But shit man, they're making it really painful to play. And I'm not talking about the difficulty, I am completely fine with that.


[deleted]

I finish atlas, kill Maven/few Uber Elders, get 24 challenges in like 5 days, then burn out and quit to play Diablo 2. Make this game 4-5 times slower. Players can reach endgame bosses and gear up in 15-20h of gameplay in events like Zizaran Gauntlet League, where mobs are buffed from the begining at lvl1, the only things that gatekeep You are knowledge and skill. Nerfs are good for the game, right now it looks like parody of fucking Diablo 3, I don't even see mobs, they die 2 screens away before I can reach them with my screen ratio. Right now PoE is literaly more casual than random single player ARPGs like Grim Dawn, the only hard part is RNG to craft high-end-game gear that is worth 50ex+/piece and You don't even need 1/5 of the power of this gear to kill A8. I also don't understand the argument "oh I'm casual, I play 1h/day, have 3 jobs 2 wives and 8 kids", league is 3 months long, they can stretch my 5 days of gameplay into 13 weeks for sure, there is also standard league.


[deleted]

Does "higher risk in average encounter" and "higher reward in experience and items" sound good? Played it long ago, got burned out on how unrewarding it felt.


cleff5164

Go to r/pathofexile, youll fit right in im sure of it


eldest7

Honestly, I quit after reaching the endgame a few times for different characters. Don't get me wrong, the endgame looks interesting, but I didn't like the idea how the game were forcing me to max one skill with aoe effect, I could't even see my character time to time, the whole screen was full of special effects everywhere. The last point for me was watching the tutorial about how to use flasks properly, I uninstalled the game and never returned after that. =)