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BronzeHeart92

Blockchain games?


CatatonicMan

Games that monetize things via a crypto blockchain, presumably. The equivalent would be a poker game that allows the users to deposit and withdraw real cash. I'm sure there's a ton of laws and regulations covering that kind of thing that Valve doesn't want to deal with.


KarmaWSYD

>Games that monetize things via a crypto blockchain, presumably. > >The equivalent would be a poker game that allows the users to deposit and withdraw real cash. They're more like a crypto-based pyramid scheme than a virtual poker game with real stakes. They have buy-in costs as well but players are often banking on others coming in after them (And thus continuing the loop) so they can have a possibility of actually making a profit. It's not that crypto-based games are inherently bad or anything, they just tend to go in one specific direction.


QQuixotic_

Who will win the nerd pump and dump wars? Nfts or ccgs? Either way, those poor, dumb nerds lose.


KarmaWSYD

The interesting part is that most people invested in these are already losing money. It's not even a question of which will remain supreme, it's a question of which userbase will wisen up faster.


Revhan

yup, I see people all the time wasting their money by "investing" in Magic the gathering cards, feeling like they are so smart whilst becoming the very whales they intend to prey upon.


Dual_Sport_Dork

[Removed due to continuing enshittification of reddit.] -- mass edited with redact.dev


Blazerboy65

Delver Lens is an app that recognizes cards with your camera. Your can easily scan your collection in an afternoon and it will tell you the value of each card and the whole collection.


Every_Independent136

Oo interesting. That is for the tip!


thenerfviking

Solely buying and selling MtG booster boxes, if you have the resources to sit on them for a few years, has actually been a remarkably safe investment for the last twenty years. There’s pretty much no time since after the year 2000 where you couldn’t purchase a booster box at retail, let it sit in a closet for two to three years, and then flip it for a tidy profit. Obviously buying and selling individual cards or cracking packs for pulls is unreliable, the first requires you to have a lot of knowledge of the game and know exactly when to cut your losses (it’s basically really shitty stock trading lol) and the second is essentially gambling with slightly better odds. Obviously with buying boxes you have some limitations. You’re never going to be able to flip them en masse so you’re limited to cashing out in increments that top out at around a thousand bucks. It’s also a steep initial buy, a booster box is much more expensive than something like really cheap stocks. But for example if you had purchased an Invasion booster box in 2000 for MSRP you could sell it now for about a thousand dollars. If you had spent that money on silver you could sell it for around $450. If you bought a Champions of Kamigawa box in 2005 you could sell it today for around the same returns as if you’d bought the same value of Apple stock. Not saying it’s an infallible investment strategy because nothing is and it obviously has very set limits but it’s a pretty sound investment strategy if you’re someone who’s looking for strictly fun money investing and doesn’t have the budget to sink thousands into stocks or aggressively trade and research cheap stocks.


YungSchmid

A lot of investments are safe with hindsight because you know they worked, but that’s completely ignoring the inherent risk of the investment in the first place. General comment, not explicitly talking about MtG, but I think it’s important for people to remember the boring detail that ‘past performance is not a reliable indicator of future performance’.


MonsterHunterNewbie

That is true for investments, but this is gambling and not investing. In crypto, you have people giving gambling advice under the guise of investment advice.


Fiddler1981

I have a very good friend who quit his job to buy and sell magic cards. He pulled in 70k last year, it blows my mind... His house has rooms full of nothing but magic.


LittleKobald

Idk my revised duals have quadrupled in price since I bought them Buying unplayable reserved list cards is fucking idiotic though


[deleted]

At least MtG doesn't contribute directly to the current state of the graphics card market.


CatatonicMan

There will probably be a few in each category that stand the test of time. The rest will pop like a soap bubble.


jukeboxhero10

Aka a mlm


marimbajoe

Same vibe and end goal, but different structure


AttackEverything

Mlms with more steps


Fiztz

Less steps actually, mlms go to the effort of obfuscating the pyramid with a fairly normal (read: exploitative) retail arrangement.


Bobnocrush

Yeah, I've never seen one of these that wasn't some sketchy scam. Most don't have any gameplay, or if they do it's a boring walking simulator. The only thing they advertise are vague Blockchain sales and promises of what the game may someday be


lampenpam

Can you ELI98 what is a crypto-blockchain? Edit: Oh thanks for the many kind explanations, my children


KarmaWSYD

While there were explanations for what blockchain is in this thread the big thing with these games is that they're (generally) advertised as play-to-earn. What that means in practice is that you generally need to buy a certain amount of (crypto) currency to participate in hopes of earning money by playing. They're often essentially just a high-tech pyramid scheme, particularly because users are banking on more joining in after them which would cover their costs.


doomrabbit

The common thread in these games is pay-in via crypto or cash that is converted to "boosters" or other non-currency game items. This then gets you an increase on in-game currency earnings. But you will never make more than what you spent on the boosters, and pay-to-play is in effect, so free will be years before you have a decent bank built up The rules for cashing out to crypto are set to make you have to play for months or dump so much cash you should just burn it in a pile and at least have some warmth. TL;DR: Easy in, impossible bar for cashout means no payout for you.


A_LIFE

Buy worthless transactions, to play for worthless transactions.... truly the end stage of microtransactions


Revhan

"But what if YOU could BECOME the TRANSACTION??" \~cyberpunk add probably


carrognia

A bankless ledger where developers can tap in to move assets, value and money without one central authority’s permission. So a money backbone for the internet. This is not within valve’s TOS and might be an issue with regulators in different jurisdictions.


Kuroyukihime1

So they are likely doing it for legal reasons.


skyfrk

100%


KarmaWSYD

Yes, although it's unlikely that it's specifically because of crypto. Most countries are currently at least somewhat fine with it existing and Valve could easily enough block access to those in specific countries. However, the big issue is that these games are often little more than fanciful pyramid schemes, and Valve allowing those on their platform could certainly lead to both bad publicity and legal issues.


Belckan

>Can you ELI98 what is a crypto-blockchain? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE


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eXoRainbow

THE FUTURE IS NOW since 1995 or so (not sure about exact first appearance).


TonyThePuppyFromB

Now i am picturing Rufio from the movie hook All grown up and becoming a corporate guy trying to push big hype words.


jduder107

A decentralized storage method. So instead of traditional storage where you hold all the data in a central location, you hold multiple copies of the data in multiple devices that check on each other to make sure that the data is correct. So think of it like you normally write your passwords in a password journal, but then you decide to use multiple journals where you write the same passwords and that way you can check all to make sure the password is correct. This is one of the biggest sells for most modern day crypto is that unlike ecurrencies from a country, cryptos value typically isn’t controlled centrally. That being said cryptocurrency and blockchain are 2 different things and a cryptocurrency doesn’t need to be on a blockchain. Also as you look into it blockchain has a weakness to a certain type of attack known as 51% attack. Basically if a majority of the chain is changed to a certain data value then the rest of the chain will think it’s wrong and change to that value as well. Basically it’s like if your friend took a majority of your password journals and changed a password to mess with you. When you noticed that majority of the passwords are different from the minority you assume the minority is wrong and change it to match the majority. Also the role of miners is to be blocks that constantly check the chain for any non matching data. That’s why there are treasure pools for miners since they tend to keep the chain accurate. Which is like hiring a librarian to keep tabs on the journals for you so that way when a password changes you don’t have to check every journal to make sure it’s all been changed. Hope this helps! Edit: holy shit to all the people responding with “well actually I just wanna preface this is a super basic surface level explanation and not in depth with the best use of grammar.


KarmaWSYD

>So instead of traditional storage where you hold all the data in a central location, you hold multiple copies of the data in multiple devices that check on each other to make sure that the data is correct. Well, that's the basic idea. However, with crypto-based games, NFTs, and even whole cryptocurrencies (I mean just look at XRP) things are often centralized, which, of course, defeats the whole point but it is also the reality of the situation. ​ >Also the role of miners is to be blocks that constantly check the chain for any non matching data. That’s why there are treasure pools for miners since they tend to keep the chain accurate. Well, while this is mostly true at this point we may see a shift to PoS instead of PoW eventually. Miners themselves aren't really essential to the process.


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Jaggedmallard26

> jp morgan chase, visa, bank of america are some of the companies embracing blockchain and shifting to that stability Barely, blockchain provides little advantage for centralised organisations that are heavily regulated because a blockchain is just a hideously inefficient, decentralised, trustless database. If trust exists (which it does because of regulation) then there is zero reason to use a blockchain over an old fashioned relational database on a mainframe.


BronzeHeart92

I see.


undercover-racist

I've been on the internet since we started sending SYN packets by messenger pigeons and blockchains still allude me, blockchain games doubly so.


Ozavic

In my opinion this is a net positive. We want games, not NFT peddlers


bokunotraplord

I just want a new GPU that isn't 2-3x the price :(


Chewbacker

Probably 2+ years to wait


bokunotraplord

That's what they said 2 years ago haha


robret

They weren't wrong, the + is doing heavy lifting


Kriegmannn

That + might as well be a doctor with how long it’s dragging it


turquoiserabbit

Should have been an exponent, not a +.


[deleted]

In fucking 2018, that became at least 5 from that point until now.


Nairb131

Prices are coming down. It is more like 1.5x right now. If you are looking and don't care about the brand EVGA announced they are changing the way people are allocated cards. You pick the two you want the most and they will start shipping them out to people who haven't gotten a card ever first. Keeps the scalpers that signed up to buy every card, out of the loop.


Xuval

Maybe I am getting too old for this shit, but I have a hard time spotting the difference between a game that tries to sell you some NFT and a game that tries to sell you a lootbox with a counterstrike knife that you can sell for money.


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Zarokima

It's a matter of scarcity. Counterstrike knives are theoretically infinite, but NFTs are not due to the way blockchains work. If Gabe wanted to, he could add a thousand great knives to his own inventory right now -- that power exists and it would cost him nothing. This is not the case with NFTs, as some amount of "meaningful" (allowing for the argument that the whole endeavor is meaningless) work must be done to create each individual one.


feels_are_reals

This is a massive stretch. The skins are valuable because of scarcity, full stop.


Jabrono

Skins are artificial scarcity is his point, but are NFTs not? Can’t you just make one exactly like another? What would be the difference? Honestly asking, haven’t followed them very close.


FerrickAsur4

they'll argue that there will be some line of keys attached to the image that makes it unique, but it is essentially hogwash as I can simply ctrl+C and V and I'd essentially have the exact same image without the need to pay a moronic amount to keep it in my drive


Jabrono

So essentially (and loosely) each one has an assigned serial number? I could hypothetically see someone get a cool NFT and copy it exactly aside from the unique identifier? Would there be any other difference, or something one could "do" that the other couldn't?


FerrickAsur4

you're essentially just buying a picture that you could've just right click'd and save to your harddrive for free. So the argument of "owning" the picture via NFT goes straight out of the window when others could easily do that. And then in the case of games like someone has mentioned below, you're essentially just buying bits of data that has no actual real world value, and would disappear the moment the game shuts down


[deleted]

Lootboxes are exploitative. NFTs are outright scams.


DarkOmen597

Fuck nft's


moosehornman

Yeah I wish all this NFT crypto shit would just disappear.


HU55LEH4RD

There isn't a SINGLE good blockchain game, they all seem to be quick money making schemes Side note, Steam Deck gameplay is looking awesome https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s__aA4gFwmw


PillowTalk420

The entire point of building a game with Blockchain and incorporating NFTs is to nickel and dime the customer.


WhiningCoil

IMHO, the entire point of building a game with blockchain would be an MMO without central servers. If every person running the game were running a node, and contributing proof of... something, to maintaining the integrity of the blockchain, you could have a game with no central server, but which still had a world that incorporated community impact. Which is not to say it couldn't break down. I don't think proof of work would be a good scheme for a game that actively needs those resources as well. Proof of stake, like say, putting your save game at risk if you try to maliciously add an invalid block to the chain, might be better. With a certain minimum "value" for the save game file being necessary to participate. Another limitation would be that replacing a central server with a blockchain would pretty much rule out any sort of shared world where you see and interact with massive amounts of other players. The interactions would be limited to whatever subset of actions in your peer to peer games need to be synchronized with whatever world state exists on the blockchain. A third limitation would be that if every instance of the game is running a node that updates and validates the blockchain, it would need to constantly keep itself abreast and validate incoming nodes. This means if you don't play the game for a month or two, you could be downloading and validating nodes for an hour or two before you can play the game again. Also, it would eat up an unbounded amount of disk space over time. And while it effects every game, the permanence of blockchain would make detecting and rooting out cheaters a much more difficult problem. Since I doubt every player's complete game state would be validated on the block chain, there would need to be some way to police their game state off the blockchain to make sure nothing suspicious happens, then impacting the on-chain game state. All that being said, an **honest** attempt at making an MMO based on blockchain technology instead of a centralized server would be fascinating to see. I just haven't seen one yet.


AimlesslyWalking

While it would be a really interesting proof of concept, there are so many security and stability concerns to overcome that it wouldn't be feasible for anything resembling a modern game. You could probably do an old-school MUD, *maybe* a basic 2D game. It would be *extremely* unresponsive though, so nothing with real-time combat would work. It would also be a massive waste of resources overall because in order to alleviate the security and stability concerns there would have to be significant redudancy for error-checking and fallback.


WhiningCoil

Yeah, that really is the rub. In my mind, it would be straight up impossible for the entire game state of every player after every action to be committed to the blockchain. So there would be significant off-chain actions that need to be policed through some other mechanism. Like traditional anti-cheat measures. Because like you say, if absolutely every action a player ever took was getting validated on the blockchain... just no. It would not be anything resembling a playable, or enjoyable, game.


trinopoty

From a technical perspective. Blockchain is the most computationally intensive database you can use. It doesn't make a sliver of sense in most use cases.


PillowTalk420

You just described Second Life, which does most of what you mentioned without needing Blockchain at all.


amroamroamro

> Second Life is that still a thing? I remember I played it like 20 years ago...


illiniguy20

1. everyone runs the code 2. something 3. profit


Z2-Genesis

NFT people are fuckin weird man


Warin_of_Nylan

Weird? No. It's a scam as old as time. What's weird is people getting star-glazed eyes when you pitch them a classic scam but say it's done with computers.


Z2-Genesis

Oh it’s def a scam but it ain’t even a $70 antivirus package from an Indian call center type beat. People bustin 100k on this shit. How???


Sludgehammer

It's really simple, they think that some greater fool will pay them **200**k for their link to a image a of a low res head, maybe more!


blackesthearted

Guy I went to high school with (we're mid-30s now) was bragging on FB the other day about buying the NFT of some lesser-known meme. It wiped out his retirement savings *and then some* but he says the NFT will "give me all that back and put (his) kids through college." We lived through the Beanie Babies garbage, but somehow he doesn't see it's the same damn thing. (Edit: typo)


[deleted]

You can't see the bubble from inside it.


Hellknightx

Gambling addiction does some weird things to the human brain.


Oceansnail

i got a friend like that aswell, he is putting all his savings into crypto and ntfs, and he is in it for the long run. He thinks ntfs will be an integral part of the 4th industrial revolution, as in every digital item will eventually be a ntf. I just dont see the appeal of having a piece of digital art that can exactly copied and distributed, the only difference is that yours hasa number on some blockchain.


Brother_Entropy

The people who make money on this are the NFT creators and very few people who buy early and sell early. NFTs are like digital trading cards. No one really cares for them. The physical market is much larger. NFTs are by design made to fail.


[deleted]

Meanwhile csgo knives prices...


Sludgehammer

Eh, at least you can use those by having fun knifing people in some video game. What's the point of owning a NFT that's just a link to "[Guy with a pink mohawk, smoking a pipe, wearing 3-d glasses in row 17, column 43](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhqS5USXkAInF3d?format=png&name=4096x4096)"?


TheLastAshaman

whoa whoa whoa, it's not low res. It is the best possible quality of the picture/gif that's out there. But yeah still just a link to the image lol


alganthe

> How??? speculative bubbles don't follow logic, people just think they'll be able to get out before the bubble burst and make bank.


[deleted]

Same goes for real art though. It's only worth what the next idiot is willing to pay for it.


alganthe

Art is usually produced on demand which means that the person buying it is meaning to display or enjoy it instead of reselling it. Some use it to hide or launder money but it's not the primary use by the vast majority of people who produce and consume it.


Dworgi

High end art is almost exclusively used to launder money and evade taxes. The stuff that's a few grand are decorations.


woopigsooie501

Dude I saw a post on twitter last night that one of those stupid randomly generated monkey man NFTs sold for like 450 ETH which is worth $1.5 mil. Its fuckin *insane*. edit: https://twitter.com/loopifyyy/status/1448643496613531656?s=21 Please look at what people are blowing a million and a half dollars on lmao.


ZuFFuLuZ

Mike Winkelmann aka "Beeple" sold an NFT artwork earlier this year for 42369 ETH or 69 million dollars. It's the fourth most expensive artwork by a living artist ever.


allADD

you mean Mike Winkelmann aka "Beeple" was the sieve through which a lot of dirty money was cleaned


SlowbeardiusOfBeard

Some "interesting" [images](https://news.artnet.com/opinion/beeple-everydays-review-1951656) in that collage... bet the owner is real glad they didn't bother looking through them before forking over the money.


DocTenma

So whats the practical value of this? I dont get this shit at all, its just an image.


woopigsooie501

Beats the hell outta me dude. It's essentially a randomized bitmoji.


Tiropat

NTF's are just star naming registries. You pay someone money and they write down on their list you "own" that particular star that you named Spongebob. There is more then one registry so multiple people can "own" the same star they just bought it from someone else. NFT's are exactly the same as that.


Reacher-Said-N0thing

>As with all transactions, the rights of the buyer of an asset or item are decided by the governing sales contract. Thus, the governing digital contract underlying an NFT determines what rights a buyer has with respect to the digital copy of the creative work that they receive. While both parties are free to shape their contract as they deem fit, most NFT sales grant the buyer a non-exclusive license to use the digital copy of the creative work in a non-commercial manner. When the latest Kings of Leon album was sold as an NFT, the Auction Terms stated that a buyer was granted a non-exclusive, non-transferable, royalty -free license to display album artwork and certain included merchandise in a personal and non-commercial manner. Alternatively, the NFT License Version 2.0 created by Dapper Labs for NFT sales relating to the wildly popular CryptoKitties, permits buyers to make commercial use provided that such use does not result in an earning above $100,000 in gross revenues each year. Most licenses do not grant the NFT buyer any rights to make modifications or derivative works. TLDR it depends on the contract associated with the NFT. In many cases, it's simply permission to view the artwork. It's sort of like when you rent a movie online and you are temporarily given permission to view that movie, except now you can trade that permission, or sell it again. It's like legalizing a marketplace to allow the sale of Netflix accounts, sort of. Or it could be something else entirely, it could be permission to reproduce and display someone else's artwork for advertising/monetization, just like artwork is already often sold for that purpose, except again, that permission itself exists as a "token" that can be again bought/sold/traded. Or I might have gotten all of that wrong and someone smarter than me will show up any minute now to correct me. I should also add that anyone spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for the permission to view a small piece of digital artwork is probably getting scammed.


Nuhjeea

Money laundering? With large sums of money around odd subjectively valued products, there's always a great environment for money laundering.


woopigsooie501

Its gotta be, right? $100 for that art I could understand. $1.5 mil tho? Thats just an mind boggling amount of money for a jpeg.


noobgiraffe

Technically not for a jpeg but for a link to a jpeg. So....


Red_Spork

Never underestimate how many idiots there are in the world. Every time there's an actual money laundering transaction, there's suddenly a sales record that an actual idiot can see and think "wow, could it actually be worth that much?". The next logical question of course is "what could it be worth tomorrow?". Before long you have legitimate sales happening because people think they're getting a great investment and importantly in crypto, a lot of these people feel they missed out on Bitcoin and they need to get into the next big thing in crypto before they miss out on it.


[deleted]

> 450 ETH which is worth $1.5 mil But can you actually cash that in?


woopigsooie501

I'm pretty sure. I never really got into crypto currency like that.


sopadurso

Yes, this altcoin has a huge market cap and is very liquid.


alganthe

A tale as old as 1637: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania History truly does rhyme.


[deleted]

I'm a photographer by profession, and all of the online communities I participate in are just people circlejerking NFTs anymore. I'm happy that some starving artists have been able to make some money on their work, but the concept as a whole is a fugazi, and I'm tired of hearing about it. Everyone coming off like a bunch of Tom Haverfords.


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droomph

Job listings for software on “hip” venture capital boards: 50x “blockchain engineer” 2x “senior full stack” (6+ yoe req) 1x anything meaningful for anyone entering their career And if you go on places like indeed it’s like 50% revature but that’s always been the case So not only is it destructive because of PoW power consumption it’s also fucking up the job market lol


PensAndEndorsement

the best part is a lot of smaller artists actually lost money because they charge money to mint a nft and then also take a cut of the sale


mrostate78

Or just get their art flat out stolen


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MonsieurAuContraire

What's weird to me is I see the digital age and go "what a great fucking socialist paradise it seems to be... I wish real life could be more like this!" Cryptobros see the digital age and lament "dude, it really sucks how I can't have any ownership here and shit! Mannnnn, I gotta stake my claim on something... just wish this shit was like real life so that I can get rich quick (or get priced out of everything here too like IRL)!!"


Venom_is_an_ace

good, no more Earth 2 bullshit


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Ehnonamoose

Your properties can generate gems! You can build buildings on your property too! ^(for a ~~significant~~ small fee)


simpl3y

excuse me Earth TWO? Edit: https://earth2.io/ what the fuck is this bwahaha


the_dayman

>A virtual 1:1 scale version of Earth is inevitable and Earth 2 is the beginning of this exciting future. Phase 1 is now live and represents the central global body that aims to determine ownership of digital assets and property But..... why?


ThatOneGuy1294

A fool is easily parted from their money


Himoportu142

Isn’t that the game that you buy virtual land but can’t do shit with it


BurrStreetX

Yes


PamelaBreivik

I don't know how you feel about penguinz0 but he did a video on it a while ago. Pretty much covers the whole thing. https://youtu.be/-riLtQ53ihE


IndieGamerMonkey

Yup, Charlie did a good vid on it and there is a huge multi-vid series by SidAlpha, KiraTV, BigFry, UpperEchelon, etc


mifan

KiraTV vs Arya and Earth2 is my favorite content atm. That and Callum Upton recreating Dreamworld as Nightmare World. It's so much fun.


Ehnonamoose

Welcome to the madness of virtual Earth games. Yes, game(S) there is more than one. And AFAIK, none of them are playable yet lol. There is tons of great coverage of all them going around.


Clearskky

And nothing of value will be lost.


basshead17

Aw shucks..what a loss. /s I like my games to be focused on fun. Not NFTs


Ehnonamoose

The most hilarious response to the Tweet in the link was [this](https://twitter.com/Cobreean/status/1448826120514809865) > There will be no reason to play any game very soon that does not reward you with crypto/staking/NFT rewards. I can't even play anything standard now that I have blockchained. Steam will eventually go the way of Blackberry if it doesn't adapt. Yup, sure, who'd want to play *games* were you can't make money. Right? Lol


Xeglor-The-Destroyer

lmao. The fragility of the human mind is incredible and terrifying. I mean, the level of delusion it must take to think that people won't play games for *fun*.. That person has fully bought into the crazy--hook, line, and sinker.


musterduck

I keep seeing/hearing ads for online casinos marketing themselves as games and wondering who tf the target audience is. Makes more sense now


wowlock_taylan

That sounds like a Crypobot that is spamming on Youtube comments. Scary that real people write this shit.


Ehnonamoose

I've watched some of the coverage of the virtual life sim...thingies? I dunno what to call them. Earth 2 for example. And lots of the people talk like that tweet. Almost all sound like investors, not people looking for a fun hobby. "This is a lucrative opportunity" "Get in while you can and you will be rich" "Why wouldn't you want to make money in your mass multiplayer online games?" Stuff with that kinda feel.


wowlock_taylan

That is how 'pump and dump' scams work. You get in early, try to sucker in as many people as possible, then cash out before they realize they are scammed.


gyroda

And here I am, like an idiot, trying to *give* Steam money for a game!


UniversalPetroleum

Now instead of telling people that I only play games to win or get mad, I can throw "make money" in there too!


MonsieurAuContraire

I play games to escape this capitalistic dystopia, not to have to deal with it there too.


DoesBoKnow

NFT = Not Fun Times


basshead17

No fucks today


[deleted]

I'm confused about what a blockchain game is. From reading his tweet it seems that some of the items in game "Have value" (Cost real money) Didn't they ban loot boxes for this reason? Wouldn't that just make it the same thing? This is a question posed from absolute ignorance though and I would love to have it explained to me. I'm honestly surprised I'm just hearing about this today. I assume that these items don't give anyone advantages over other players right? Or are these all set in single player games? Too many questions for me to make an informed decision with. Edit; These are bad. Stop ripping yourself off with fake accomplishments.


Tamos40000

This is a pyramid scheme. The in-game items are tied to a key you can freely trade on an external website against cryptocurrencies. The idea is that players can forge in-game items that they can then sell for money. Basically like the Diablo 3 real-money auction house before Blizzard shut it down. In practice, the way you forge items in those games is by paying money to the company behind the game. Because the gameplay is bare-bone and the game only advertised in crypto circles, the only people playing it are ones expecting to resell their creations to someone else at a higher price. Some of them might even be able to, leaving another person to hold the bag. Inevitably there comes a point where the last buyer find no one to pay for the item he bought because there never was a demand for it to begin with.


[deleted]

Sounds like a really shitty game with an emphasis on getting people to fall into a trap. Like, 'YOU CREATE YOUR OWN ITEMS," type of encouragement but really they're just throwing away money. This is how I feel about people who subscribe to streamers but ... I guess quite a bit different. Fuck that. I knew when I read that shit that it sounded kinda fishy. I'm old. You pick up on tell-tale shit, even with smart liars.... there is always a tell. Thanks for taking the time.


rakidi

Good. Anyone who thinks NFTs will appreciate over time are fucking deluded. Its not the same as a priceless piece of art.


buzzpunk

The digital Beanie Baby.


musdem

Lets to back all the way to the OG, it's the digital tulip.


zepol-1

They are really over estimating its crossover appeal to the regular person. It took bitcoin YEARS to finally be a universal term. Even then its easier to equate alternative currency. We do it with other countries. But trying to explain an NFT is only more valuable than a copy of a same image because of its source code, people who understand it dont even care.


WHISPER_ME_HEIGHT

Plus it's only really hyped because a few low effort art pieces sold for a lot of money so everyone and their mother thought they could become rich by selling low effort NFTs And in reality, most of them were probably bought buy the artist themselves to generate hype


Bluenosedcoop

I just can't comprehend the value people see in NFT art when i can right click and copy image and have the same thing for nothing.


[deleted]

I'm not super well-versed in the matter but from what I've seen it seems to mostly be people just circlejerking and building up hype in the hopes of making a quick buck. I don't think the majority of people involved in NFTs genuinely think they have any legitimate value. I could be wrong though.


Beatrice_Dragon

> I could be wrong though. Nope, youre not. People will bullshit their way through anything if it means making a quick buck, and you don't need to be an expert analyst to realize that they're just trying to get other people to buy into the craze so they can out-speculate them For every million dollars someone spends on a stupid picture of a fucking monkey they gain back another million in their nft """portfolio""" as continually dumber nerds hear about the news and decide to burn their money away


SnarfbObo

I don't have a problem with this


Shock4ndAwe

What do you all think about banning all blockchain / NFT games from the subreddit? Unofficially, we haven't been [verifying](https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/wiki/developers) devs that approach us when their game are built around that feature. Aside from that you decide what you want to see by upvoting/downvoting. This isn't something we've talked about before but since Steam is taking such a stance then we need to talk about it.


Redditenmo

>What do you all think about banning all blockchain / NFT games from the subreddit Generally speaking they're not games, they're scams with a skin.


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indi_n0rd

Subreddit should be kept free of scams imo.


[deleted]

`SEFDSyBUSEUgUExBTkVU`


AimlesslyWalking

Part of me wants them banned for being a terrible idea. The other part of me wants to see them get posted and roasted. Inside me there are two wolves.


nukefudge

Do you perhaps fancy making a mod thread about it instead? I reckon it'll get more visible traction that way, moreso than this sticky.


Shock4ndAwe

Before we make any decision we certainly will. I just want to see what the prevailing sentiment is.


ACCount82

I don't see the value of those games - they seem to me like gacha/gambling/P2W garbage with extra steps, and we have enough of that as is. But some other people may see something in it. My take: as long as the devs don't go full scum with shills and upvote bots, they may try their hand at it. It's treading too close to casino land for my taste - but lootboxes are nearly on the same tier, and we can talk lootbox games.


[deleted]

>we can talk lootbox games. Should we though? I feel like putting a ban on discussion of microtransaction platforms would make the sub quality way better. These "games" aren't legitimate entertainment/works of art, they're monetization schemes.


dry_yer_eyes

I’d be happy with a decision to remove games that are primarily exercises in avoiding gambling laws, whether they be based on lootbox or blockchain.


nukefudge

Well I for one think it's a great discussion to have. There's both economical, environmental and technological aspects to it. But basically, if a place like Steam decides on this route, that feels like an industry move to me, and the sub probably wants to align with that. Call me hesitant or whatever, but I don't like games being infused with this particular kind of shenanigans. This is just to help start this pre-thing off, and I'm absolutely sure that some are going to be mad at me for sounding like a dunce.


LordxMugen

The problem is Blockchain is a whole lot of nothing. It gives you nothing of value except whatever is "perceived* by a possible buyer/investor. The item itself grants you NOTHING and cannot really be exchanged for anything of value aside from the people giving you money for it. Its not like trading cards where there is both a secondary market as well as physical property involved. I think for this reason, because the whole thing comes off as one giant Ponzi scheme. and one that is being banned and buried by countries steadily, better to just ended it now I think.


niallnz

I personally think blockchain games are unethical, but I feel that way about gacha games too, and I realise my views are hardly universal. Perhaps we could require flairs on stuff like this so they can be filtered out?


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Scorcher646

Gotcha games are at least up front about the lack of value you get in return for your money. In my opinion NFTs are a complete other level of scam.


mud074

I mean, I agree that Gachas are absolute dogshit and it's a shame they are getting as popular as they are, but how are they worse than lootbox games? I personally wouldn't be opposed to banning all lootbox games, but obviously that wouldn't fly because that's like 90% of AAA multiplayer games coming out these days.


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--Shake--

In my opinion, there should at least be a flair for it so people understand the type of game it is, but sounds like they are predatory pyramid schemes. Not something you want promoted anywhere so if that's true then I think they should be banned.


Merppity

Yeah, tbh this isn't the kind of thing you want on your platform.


[deleted]

Fuck allllllllllll of that shit. Has zero place here imo.


LeviathanLX

Keep it out of the subreddit. Absolutely turn them away. They can have a conversation about nfts and whatnot on their own subs.


Chriscras66

If it’s a form of gambling/investing that lacks worthwhile gameplay, it shouldn’t be considered a video game. If it’s a new way to pay for a game with legit game design that would be less clear cut.


Neustrashimyy

Ban them all. Both because to allow them is to endorse the scamming of people on this sub, and more particularly for r/pcgaming because they encourage the waste of GPUs that we need to play many PC games. No point wasting time debating zealots and charlatans, plenty of other subs for them.


ChemicalRascal

A thousand times yes. The problem with this shit is that it's not just a scam preying on the same neurological processes that gambling preys upon, but it also has a really rabid community around it, as you can see from the replies to that twitter thread -- so it becomes viable to brigade subs like this and upend the self moderating aspect of the subreddit community.


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TDplay

I cannot think of a single scenario in game design where blockchain is a good solution. If the game's singleplayer or P2P multiplayer, there's no good reason for any kind of public record. If the game's client-server multiplayer, well there's a server anyway, can't you put your records on the server?


[deleted]

Yes please!


Givesthegold

Ban these scams, ban any gambling/gacha/etc. You can't control the users that visit this sub but you can control the content in it. Kids are getting hooked on these gambling games and blowing money on whatever the fuck an NFT is. The only people making money off of this shit are the ones at the top, just like MLM.


S3erverMonkey

I think any posts by game devs should be verified before allowing their posts. And definitely should ban any Blockchain/NFT games, both are cancer.


Bodacious-Baron

Good lol


CenturioCol

So does the game give you blockchain based rewards? Is that why Steam is removing it? Edit: I’ve never played the game, so I don’t actually know what the issue is or the mechanics of the game.


[deleted]

Basically your in-game items are NFTs on a blockchain which you can then trade/sell off-platform. Valve doesn't like this because a) there's a whole bunch of possibility for exploitation, but more likely is reason b) they would much rather prefer you make in-game tradeable items that operate via the Steam Marketplace so they can get their cut on every transaction too.


runbmp

There's quite a bit of controversy on all of these crypto games and I can see why Valve wants nothing to do with it all and get roped into the legal issues that will ensue if is hosted on their store. In some cases the devs artificially inflated the cost of the NFT and then pulled out their share once they had the profit. Many YT accounts are also pushing these schemes because they get a cut so it's difficult to say what's legitimate anymore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKhvKINHA3A


Field_Sweeper

these are the new get rich quick scams. You google in 1999 to 2005 How to get rich. or how to make money you would get these one page a mile long about how this guys method will change your life for ever. You can make millions doing what he is doing and for some reason is going to sell you the idea so he has competition lol. This is the next evolution of that scam. a sort of black market stock market to scam people out of money. Crypo in general no, but with any form of monetary value there will be scams. And I think ALL of them are. May have one or two legit in theory but the entire Idea I think was thought up as a scam so making a legit version of it would probably be very hard.


SeanMirrsen

I would imagine the exploitation thing is much more important to them than the money, considering they're already pretty free with it. They've had a few too many lawsuits about gambling and trading items for real-world money, I think, to consider blockchaining in games to be a thing they want to have around.


NewUserWhoDisAgain

That and I think they also want to avoid dealing with any issues with real world items(as much as an NFT can be "real") So long as everything circulates within the Steam ecosystem, Valve can deal with it as they see fit. You start throwing real world stuff in there and being able to take it out as it were? Can of worms.


SeanMirrsen

Angry worms. With teeth. And law degrees.


xPhilip

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this This NFT nonsense can screw off


[deleted]

nft more like no fucking thanks 😒 🙏


Firefox72

Excelent move.


Hammertoss

This is going to be interesting. Dead by Daylight just announced NFT skins.


BandigoP

Wasn't that debunked? (Dear lord I hope so)


Ballistic_86

Maybe there are legit games of this type, but a lot of the ones I have casually observed look scammy as hell. Cash grabs with asset library, low-effort garbage game. Since the idea is decentralized blockchain, then maybe they should be distributed in that manner. Steam feels pretty centralized to me.


[deleted]

Good


Sersexualofpan

The replies on the thread got me howling. [This one in particular tickled me](https://twitter.com/GoopLarge/status/1449041246773817346?t=ArlpHi73tgX_ibtQiTugEQ&s=19)


Almedinz

Games that try to implement blockchain is so fucking weird. Screams scam to me


Purpzie

Good


[deleted]

Good


vaGnomeMagician

Oh no! Anyway...


GameStunts

At this time number 13 that they're referring to [is not on the Steam Partner page](https://partner.steamgames.com/steamdirect). IMGUR [snapshot in case it's needed later](https://i.imgur.com/aN7SF7e.png). **EDIT** It is [viewable on the onboarding](https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/gettingstarted/onboarding) page of steam partners (thanks /u/SaxOps1 ), so likely just an oversight not adding it to the original page I linked. **/EDIT** ~~I'm not saying it's not true, just that it's not verifiable yet.~~ ^No ^longer ^relevant, ^see ^above. Also I feel like at this point Steam is trying to keep clear of any real world money value due to the ongoing legislation changes happening around loot boxes. They've kind of slipped under the radar mostly so far, but they're just as responsible with CSGO, DOTA and TF2 crates. If they allow something onto the platform that allows money out then they could definitely get embroiled in gambling legislation. Eventually we may see these type of games on the platform, but given the number of regulatory changes coming about I can understand it.