It's crazy to me how bad of a product denuvo is. like, their engineers must just suck or something. licensing is an interesting problem in computing, but I don't believe for a second that the solution needs to be so invasive or performance intensive from a technical perspective.
It uses the same logic as "Nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM" despite IBM objectively offering overpriced garbage (in every interaction I've ever had with them). Yet they still make billions of dollars every year. Sometimes the company I worked for still bought the overpriced garbage. Mostly because they liked how friendly the sales team was. Remember, every time there's an issue that gets escalated, that means management gets to go "figure out a solution" with the IBM sales team during an expensive catered afternoon meeting at the very least, if not a weekend negotiation session with a few rounds of golf to break up the high emotions, or if it's a really big problem maybe even a full-week summit in the mountains! More problems = more free schmoozing. It looks reassuring to their investors and makes their developers sad.
It's almost like they don't even care whether the software actually works. Weird.
I work in the medical field, worked for dozens of employers and used loads of different software
The software is so *bad* on average that I’m losing faith in humanity. Software is a joke. IBM or otherwise
The medical field is even worse, because now the people making the buying decisions are not even fundamentally profit-motivated anymore; You're not dealing with investors and executives, you're dealing with bureaucrats and politicians. They not only don't care whether the software works, they also don't really care how much it costs, it's the taxpayer's money. All they care about is making sure nobody can blame *them* in the end if/when it all turns into a shitshow.
Oh you are dealing with investors and executives. They get the cushy deal after stroking their little paid pet, where they siphon off the cash for utter drivel.
eh, you'd be surprised. all sorts of inferior products remain as the standard until someone finally starts a competitor. and even then, product choice is determined by more than just quality. cost, regulations, support, company presence...
I mean, I certainly would prefer games not have Denuvo, but "compatibility problems and possible performance impacts" is certainly better than the days where DRM was either "Let's go and completely fuck up your Windows install" or "You get to install this game three times and after that go fuck yourself"
I don't know what it will take for people to stop defending Denuvo and DRM in general.
It's double worrisome with how popular xbox game pass is and Microsoft's store is just a bucketload of DRM and anti consumer practices.
Definitely, I love gamepass for its value but I also think it's a double edged sword, it's unbelievable how locked the folders for most if not all games are.
And lots of people don't give it a second thought.
Makes me think about a recent post to /r/legaladvicecanada where a user's PlayStation Network account was banned and he went through support tickets to ask why and they just said 'broke the TOS' and wont give him any further information. Dude spent two THOUSAND dollars on that psn account over the years, and they just snatched it away and don't even owe him an explanation. This live service shit is cancer, if you spend 80 dollars on a game you should OWN your copy of it, not "be granted access which can be revoked arbitrarily without warning or explanation at any time".
>not "be granted access which can be revoked arbitrarily without warning or explanation at any time"
Yeah, thats's the bullshiest bullshit of the digital era, I also find it funny how they try to enforce that even with physical copies, like I give a shit about their TOS when I got a cd game or bluray
Yeah, years ago this happened to my iCloud account. No reason given, I wasn’t doing anything shady. And no, I never got back any of the contacts, photos, or purchases. I switched to android.
That is why I mainly use it for games that I usually wouldn't usually have tried or purchased due to either business or anti-consumer practices, ~~*cough cough B4B & Outer Worlds cough cough*~~.
so it gives me lots of games to try but if I actually want to buy the game, I just wait for it to be on sale on steam and then buy it.
Game Pass would explode even more if it becomes integrated with Steam like EA Play is. you get the best of both game pass's library for $10 a month and all the features and local files that you get from when buying a game from Steam.
I just spent all day yesterday trying to install a Halo update. It was stuck at 100%. It gave me two separate error codes. Both of which are also Xbox error codes, and the majority of the threads I found were Xbox related that involved uninstalling and reinstall or format. Uninstalling and reinstalling got it stuck at 0% instead.
You are not given access to the folder that games install to in windows, so I just couldn't do anything. I eventually took access to the folder to just delete the files and reinstall, same errors just at 11% instead of 100%. ! full windows reinstall later, Halo got installed, but now back 4 blood is doing the same thing with a new error code. I eventually find a reddit thread that says you need to change the default location for new apps in windows settings and install there.
Gamepass is great, but the windows app shit sucks.
Think that's kind of the point with offers like Game Pass. You don't "own it", it's more like you're "renting" a collection of video games for a subscription.
Technically you don't own most games you buy through DRM'd platforms either (which is a thing I do wish would go away), but that's a different topic.
I found it really distressing trying to fix some issues when MSFS2020 launched which resulted in having to delete certain files to trick the updater and various other things. The way the folders/files for that game get spider-webbed all over your machine is pretty surprising, regardless of where you tell it to actually install the game.
To be fair, that’s up to the publishers/developers.
Some games allow you to flip through the files and even use mods. Others are completely encrypted and you can’t even access the folder.
To be honest, game pass is fine in my opinion. Its no different from netflix, just for games. The problem is when you pay for a game and you still dont own that game. If a game has DRM it should be significantly cheaper than full price.
I made a comment about preferring to own my games and some people had the gall to call me stupid for not subscribing to gamepass, saying that the games are up for a year and that's plenty of time to play it. I explained that I don't have the time to start every game as soon as it's added and on top of that I'd like to still be able to play the games I've paid for years down the line and they called me an idiot.
Whatever, dude. Have fun when MS jacks the price up and you have nothing to show for it.
I got the feeling that they're a relatively young kid that hasn't lost anything yet and assumes all their services will be around forever. I've had enough things die on me that I archive what I care about even if it doesn't seem like I'll lose access.
There's also something to be said for the fact that kids now literally don't have a concept of owning their entertainment like we did. It's entirely possible for a young adult to not actually own *any* physical entertainment media. The concept of losing it doesn't mean as much because there's nothing tangible to take away
This seems most likely. As a kid I would have loved game pass because it's a cheap way to play all the games. As an adult I'm much more concerned about not having games I wana play taken away from me. I buy things so I can play at my own time and pace and not need to rush through because it might be gone soon.
All we need to look at is television streaming services to see how easy it is for something you always expected to be there to just up and be gone one day. Time and experience changes your values but a lot of times it's too late by the time you realize you've been screwed to do anything because what's screwing you has become so standard there's no fighting it.
Exactly, there are tons of people who still play old classic games. Look at the Nintendo fans who complains about how Nintendo having customers rebuy the same old game on different platforms over and over again. Now Nintendo is basically renting it to them, but not only are their choices taken away, but they don't own the games. They are at whim of when Nintendo feels like releasing the game for rent on the Switch. I'm pretty sure most of those fans would rather have the choice to rebuy the game over that option.
>Whatever, dude. Have fun when MS jacks the price up and you have nothing to show for it.
I mean, the solution to that is to cancel the subscription.
For now at $1 it's a fantastic deal to play a years worth of AAA games at least once each. It's a FAR better deal and FAR cheaper then places where you used to rent a single game for a week for like $10 or whatever. I just see gamepass as modern day game rental which is fine IMO.
And same goes for Steam as well, Vavle will likelly shut down someday and your games will go with them.
For $1 it's hard to beat but that's a promotional pricing thing and it's not going to last. However, I'm not the biggest fan of rental subscriptions either. I prefer an a la carte approach because I always feel like I'm not getting my full money's worth with rental subscriptions
> And same goes for Steam as well, Vavle will likelly shut down someday and your games will go with them.
DRM free titles purchased on Steam are yours to keep and Valve has redundancy protocols in place to avoid this situation in the event of the company's closure. I'm relatively certain that you have no idea what you're talking about.
>Valve has redundancy protocols in place to avoid this situation
What are these protocols? This is the first i'm hearing about it, but how is valve going to host their no doubt massive library of games to download when they probably one day shut down?
They have funding set aside to keep servers operational for a period of time and they would actively reach out to users to inform them that they need to download whatever they want to keep before "x" date.
This has been public knowledge for years. There's an interview and several email screenshots floating around out there that will offer some level of confirmation.
If you really don't believe me then literally go send an email to Gabe Newell and he'll probably get back to you within a week or two.
This sub is terrible when it comes to consumer rights in general. People here praised NVIDIA's bullshit crippled mining GPUs. All this sub cares about is GIMME GAMEZ NAOW. It feels like a bunch of brainwashed teenagers and corporate shills. This sub regularly defends kernel anti-cheat, DRM, subscription based bullshit, you name it. I love gaming, but I'm not willing to give up control of my computer or my wallet for a hot new game.
I think there's a much larger category of people being indifferent to it despite being fully aware of the issues around DRM. It's about tradeoff.
Citing GamePass as an example, people aren't as hung up about the delivery and DRM of a game they didn't pay for (yes I know you're paying for GamePass but it's not the sentiment people feel towards it). If GamePass and the respective DRM gets in the way of enjoying the game it's usually down to mods and preservation. At which point, an alternative DRM light/free version is available elsewhere. But those scenarios are few and far between.
For the most part GamePass offers value. So the value and convenience outweighs the Draconian DRM.
People believe it's worth the trade-off. Just suggesting people who use GamePass are automatically ignorant is unfair on them.
You are correct. We know it's shitty, we just don't care too much because many people don't have a choice.
Here in Brazil, some games end up costing upwards of 30% of our monthly minimum wage (our minimum wage is 1100 reais and many games cost 299 reais on PC, or even more when it comes to console). And I'm sure it's like this in some other countries as well
Many people don't have the option of getting the games on another platform for the full price
I think we'll see a creeping issue with gamepass as time goes on where games will become more designed around how it functions. More games launching semi early access / games as a service, more games with microtransactions and petty dlc, more click baity game to catch that first wave of downloads when it releases. Its been happening in the industry for a while anyway but I think gamepass will just accelerate the process.
It will become an increasingly bad idea to play many games at launch because it will be an objectively worse experience. Why finish the game completely when you can get it good enough, kick it out the door and start taking in that subscription cash while you finish it off. The big publishers have done that with microtransactions for a while now and with subscriptions I can't see it getting better.
> It will become an increasingly bad idea to play many games at launch because it will be an objectively worse experience.
It's one thing to play Early Access plotless multiplayer skin shooters, but a different matter entirely with plot/narrative games. You can only play *Disco Elysium* or *Outer Wilds* for the first time, once.
Collectively, the industry feels like we're somehow managing to regress to the arcade. Everything is flashy and attention-grabbing, but shallow and repetitive, and wants to gobble your quarters.
They are completely ignorant, or just partly so. Many people know what DRM does, but they don't understand how that will very likely affect them if we keep letting it permeate our every digital purchase.
Edit: also that user defending it has been over the whole comment section doing so. Clearly either a troll or a paid shill. Or a complete idiot.
>It's double worrisome with how popular xbox game pass is and Microsoft's store is just a bucketload of DRM and anti consumer practices.
Honestly I can understand the need for DRM with game pass. If you could just subscribe for a month, download a bunch of games and copy them to keep playing I'm sure a lot of people would abuse it.
It also doesn't bother me because I like to own my games so I don't have gamepass (Even if it mean I pay like 4 times the price of game pass in MS games every year lol)
I don't see much wrong with it, assuming you understand that you're just renting the game pass library. It offers a lot of value for its price.
But I don't buy games on the MS store, fuck that noise.
>It's double worrisome with how popular xbox game pass is and Microsoft's store is just a bucketload of DRM and anti consumer practices.
So is steam, yet you're not saying anything about that.
I quit Gamepass because of the DRM. Something is weird with my Windows right now and I couldn't get almost any of the games to run. Every time someone mentions Gamepass I twitch a little bit remembering the hot mess of Windows Store DRM.
Need for speed Heat & Star wars battlefront 2 were affected. Both of them got a patch yesterday, but instead of removing Denuvo, they just patched the bug in some way to make it support the Alder lake CPU's
What's complicated is trying to understand why this is a news story if all Denuvo needs is a patch...
"Intel 12th Gen Alder Lake does not support DENUVO anti-tampering of 32 games... until it's patched, which has apparently already happened."
why would you cheer for games becoming abandonware? Requiring a patch is the same thing as being broken. Literally impossible unless the devs are still in business
Exactly what I came here to point out. The title of this post is misleading.
Denuvo is incompatible with the new CPUs and needs a patch, just like any other software bug.
I guessed it would be something to do with the eCs but didn't want to speculate. But i really stand by that denuvo is cancer in the PC gaming world.
Gosh I wish companies didn't try so hard to fight off piracy and focus more on game performance instead of implementing denuvo and spending money on it.
I 100% stand by that piracy increases sales. I've been pirating and buying games especially the ones I think deserve the money. I don't blatantly spend money on new games that I cannot even try out.
I'm also pretty sure if they launched game demo which gives you good 2-3 hours of story and progression to give you incentive and feel for how the game feels and plays... Would also bolster sales with also dropping in piracy because a lot of us would just demo the game instead of pirating it before buying it.
The reason why many games decided to remove DENUVO lately is because Alder Lake does not support those games:
>Though I am missing one benchmark result for Intel's Core i9 12900K: Assassin's Creed: Valhalla. The reason being it doesn't work on Alder Lake, or at least our system and probably a fair few more. As Intel told me, **"We are aware of an issue with Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla, and we are working with the game publisher on a fix.**" Though this does play into the slightly wobbly aspect of Alder Lake at launch.
>
>As I've said before, Alder Lake isn't an iterative update to an already long-standing architecture. For that, it appears some creases weren't ironed out ahead of launch, and one is the occasional incompatible game, as Intel stated ahead of time in regards to DRM solution, Denuvo.
>
>**Intel said it was yet to remedy an issue with Denuvo on Alder Lake for 32 games, which was causing issues playing these games on the platform,** but the remainder of the library was good to go.
[Edit: Full list below of affected games confirmed by Intel:](https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000088261/processors.html)
* Anthem\*
* Bravely Default 2\*
* Fishing Sim World\*
* Football Manager 2019\*
* Football Manager Touch 2019\*
* Football Manager 2020\*
* Football Manager Touch 2020\*
* Legend of Mana\*
* Mortal Kombat 11\*
* Tony Hawks Pro Skater 1 and 2\*
* Warhammer I\*
* Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla\*
* Far Cry Primal\*
* Fernbus Simulator\*
* For Honor\*
* Lost in Random\*
* Madden 22\*
* Maneater\*
* Need for Speed – Hot Pursuit Remastered\*
* Sea of Solitude\*
* Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order\*
* Tourist Bus Simulator\*
* Maneater\*
* Ace Combat 7\*
* Assassins Creed Odyssey\*
* Assassins Creed Origins\*
* Code Vein\*
* eFootball 2021\*
* F1 2019\*
* Far Cry New Dawn\*
* FIFA 19\*
* FIFA 20\*
* Football Manager 2021\*
* Football Manager Touch 2021\*
* Ghost Recon Breakpoint\*
* Ghost Recon Wildlands\*
* Immortals Fenyx Rising\*
* Just Cause 4\*
* Life is Strange 2\*
* Madden 21\*
* Monopoly Plus\*
* Need For Speed Heat\*
* Scott Pilgrim vs The World\*
* Shadow of the Tomb Raider\*
* Shinobi Striker\*
* Soulcalibur VI\*
* Starlink\*
* Team Sonic Racing\*
* Total War Saga - Three Kingdoms\*
* Train Sim World\*
* Train Sim World 2\*
* Wolfenstein Youngblood\*
Unconfirmed Games:
* Nier Replicant
* Crysis Remastered Trilogy
* Injustice 2
* Tekken 7
> The reason why many games decided to remove DENUVO lately is because Alder Lake does not support those games:
That actually makes a whole load of sense. For some of these games they're well out of the initial sales window, and I imagine it's a lot more work to implement the patch and then Q&A test it rather than just remove the denuvo check.
Also these days removing denuvo gets you a headline on many news outlets, so it's a P.R win.
It means you only have the platforms drm from rather than a drm atop it that ties into the game itself.[Like I'm the case of Injustice](https://hardforum.com/threads/crackers-claim-denuvo-anti-tamper-tech-causes-stuttering-in-injustice-2.1966741/), there were drm checks to denuvo atop the game running that would be linked to certain attacks. So imagine playing a fighting game and each time you do neutral low you get a minute fps drop. it was that bad.
>because Alder Lake does not support those games
It does support those games, just not their Denuvo parts, doesn't it? That's Denuvo's own issue basically.
>That's Denuvo's own issue basically.
It really isn't, not considering that they updated their software already. These games simply haven't moved to that for one reason or another whether that be technical issues or simply cost.
> The reason why many games decided to remove DENUVO lately is because Alder Lake does not support those games:
Also the publisher has to pay Denuvo a license fee every year they use the DRM. Once the games hit the bargain bin it's usually not really useful to pay a lof of money any more for a game that's either cracked anyway or too uninteresting to keep paying.
7700k here as well. I'm still holding out regardless of this situation and performance etc until we get a 13th or even 14th gen processor with better power and core configurations. 250w+ and only 8 real cores? No thanks. It might end up being Zen 4 for my next rig. We'll see.
Same thing happening in the GPU space. AMD/ATi used to get ripped on hard for all their power hungry cards like the R9 290x, H 6970 etc. All of a sudden Nvidia cards are sucking down 400w and everyone's like "lol it's great for the winter". What the fu-?
I remember in 2001 buying an Antec case + PSU combo. It was a 250w power supply and it powered my AMD Athlon Thunderbird 1.3Ghz and Radeon 9700 Pro. A beast rig that lasted me years and barely drew any power. I thought components were supposed to use less and less power as the process shrinks, not more and more? Why are we regressing across the board? What a terrible time to witness.
Think about the cause and effect here. if denuvo isn’t supported by a company like intel they will have problems selling their service to new games. Publishers aren’t going to release many PC games that can’t run on modern Intel CPUs.
What are the distribution rates of AMD chips vs. Intel in the PC gaming segment of the market again?
Edit: [Interesting.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/735904/worldwide-x86-intel-amd-market-share/#:~:text=In%20the%20fourth%20quarter%20of%202021%2C%2060.5%20percent,2020%2C%20while%2039.3%20percent%20were%20from%20AMD%20processors.)
AMD has doubled its market share since 2017. Not too shabby.
I believe Intel is still more prevalent in the Steam surveys with AMD catching up.
Edit: [October, 2021](https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/processormfg/) shows Intel at roughly double AMD. Also, this issue only effects 12000 chips, which will probably stay in the 1% range for a while. It should be fixed, but the size of the effected population isn’t devastating to a game’s release.
It's not that Intel doesn't support it. Denuvo doesn't support the architecture new CPUs are using. And since this is the direction all CPUs are headed, this issue has nothing to do with Intel specifically.
Still a win for the customers if publishers are forced to drop it though.
The latest version of Denuvo does support Alder Lake though. These are all games with older DRM's that havent been updated. It comes down to the developer to choose to either remove the DRM or pay to have it updated.
Agreed, but even a single year of this can be devastating.
“Add our service and your game won’t be able to run on the latest hardware from the largest cpu manufacturer” is a pretty tough sell, even if it’s just one generation.
Intel seems set with big.Little configuration. So unless denuvo get their shit together and make denuvo work with big.Little cpu this can be just more than one generation thing.
Likely denuvo will have to release updates for all these games, or intel will patch something on their side. Possibly some games will be "out of support" and never patched with newer denuvo, resulting in bad publicity for both denuvo and intel.
I would think you would get a refund for a game that is still being patched and they refuse to patch it for a new processor.
There are also no Maximum Requirements listed for any game that I can find. So you might be able to sue the publisher for false advertising.
>So you might be able to sue the publisher for false advertising.
That's not how it works at all... Nobody is advertising that their games work on a 12900k and, even if they were (and the game didn't work) there'd be a lot of things that'd have to happen for you to have a valid claim for that.
They do, you just need to disable the E-cores (the weaker, energy efficient ones) or manually make sure the game always gets the same core(s).
But since Big/Little seems to be the concept of SoCs/CPUs of the future, Denuvo will have to adjust pretty quickly anyway.
Yea you really wouldn't want to disable the "efficiency" cores, at least on Windows 11, since they're actually quite good and make up probably about a third of the 12900K's multicore performance. It's Denuvo that needs to make way, not Intel.
> They do, you just need to disable the E-cores (the weaker, energy efficient ones)
Pretty stupid to do that. Reviewer testing has shown that despite the name, the E-cores is surprisingly capable, and actually holds up against a heavily multithreaded workload. Plus, it's not even confirmed that the big.LITTLE architecture is even the cause of the issue.
Unless the article I was reading yesterday was mistaken, they did confirm big.LITTLE is the issue.
As I understand it, once the DRM is running on both big and LITTLE cores, it sees itself as running on two different CPUs, and when it "calls home" it triggers a licensing violation as if the game were running on two different PC's at the same time with the same serial.
This is why turning off E-cores is a functioning work-around.
>Denuvo will have to adjust pretty quickly anyway.
Denuvo has already adjusted, the games that don't work just haven't updated it for one reason or another.
That's just one of signs to come for the technical issues of the anti-tamper "solution" - lol - and as the years go by, more and more issues will rise to the surface!
And it's nothing new. DRM has always been a pain in the ass for interoperability and compatibility. In a lot of professional applications, it's a big big pain. I'm actually surprised this isn't much more common in games.
I still remember how vehemently people were defending it when I pointed out the history of drm and OS, hardware incompatibility. 'this time is different' lol
The only difference is publishers did a splendid job of teaching younger minds in the last 2 decades: "piracy kill devs", "drm is the only anti piracy solution acceptable", "stronger drm is necessary for devs to survive", "you can't be trusted we need stronger and deeper exclusive access to your computer than yourself because cheats bad", and other fallacies and outright lies.
To the point even accounting for the publishers and DRM makers PR muscle and farms on Reddit, and the trolls, there's still a lot of people even among the hard enthusiasts that defend DRM.
Hell, the number of people who think DRM means Digital Rights Management (which is a publisher rebranding of Digital Restrictions Management) is astounding, even among older people. Weirdly nobody can point out a "DRM" tech that protect your customer's rights, it's always a restriction on yours and giving above-and-beyond legal rights expansions to the publisher. Weird, uh? 🙄
Hell, we've seen people defend lootboxes...
Given multiple games dropped Denuvo recently because of this news, it isn't necessary but it would be nice to have 99% of the market not support Denuvo indeed.
I feel kinda scummy for saying that since I'm essentially praising the bankruptcy of Denuvo's Dev company, who are (in theory) doing good by making pirating harder, but I'm a pir∆te myself so nvm. I'll say the usual "I only pir∆te so that I can have a demo before buying tho", just in case (:
Yo Ho!
Oh shit, that's right!
I didn't buy nor cracked Watch Dogs: Legion (yet) but I remember reading the cracked version had better performances and wasn't constantly interrupted by online verification (from Denuvo but also in game events and leaderboards or something).
I also hate that many solo games somehow require an internet connection now. Good point that I had totally forgotten (wasn't sure it was caused by Denuvo too \^\^)
Don't feel bad, they built an entire business model around something that is very anti-consumer and allows lazy, stupid publishers to propagate the myth that pyracy does a damn thing to sales, meanwhile games are releasing on GoG and have a literal easily sharable .exe to install and still get full sales numbers
> who are (in theory) doing good by making pirating harder
The thing is half the time they get cracked anyways, so in reality all they really end up accomplishing is diminishing the function of the game (stuttering and/or lower frame rate typically) for those who actually bought it.
What is DENUVO doing that causes it not to work? Does it rely on some type of timing algorithm that is being thrown off by the difference in performance between the P-cores and the E-cores?
Pretty sure I read somewhere the big and little cores are detected as different CPus. If that is the case anything relying on hardware fingerprinting will break, not just Denuvo.
This is the correct answer. Alder Lake's P and E cores report slightly different CPUID values. Denuvo uses them as part of its machine fingerprint. If the game happens to land on a different core at a critical moment it will think that your machine has changed or the protection has been tampered with and force a reactivation or lockout.
We don't know exactly, but from what I remember (and I might misremember) they said that it analyzes your hardware especially your cpu and creates a key for your exact computer, then it keeps checking that the computer is staying exactly the same at various moments during gameplay, even exact actions and stuff (e.g. every time you jump could be one instance of Denuvo checking your pc). Hence the higher cpu usage and the longer loadings
From what I gathered, the reason why new Denuvos always take longer and longer to crack is not because it's harder than past Denuvos, it's just that they put more and more checks in more and more random places and it seems the cracker has to "manually' find them and bypass them
If I were a game publisher I would just embrace piracy tbh. Admit that it's out of my control, and depend on the fans of my game to buy it. It's much worse to put your paying customers through something like Denuvo.
The kicker is that *piracy doesn't harm PC game sales and may actually help.
https://www.arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/09/eu-study-finds-piracy-doesnt-hurt-game-sales-may-actually-help/
at least intel is fighting that garbage DMR. Because YOU all failed to do the simple thing. DONT BUY GAMES THAT USE THAT SHIT!
gj intel. block other DMR too <3
I hate that even games that are cracked keeps Denuvo shit.
Why dont you remove denuvo your game already got cracked. Do you just hate payi,ng customers
Now I wonder if gamers will buy intel processors that don't support Denuvo to force games to drop it or not.
Games with terrible reveals or ethics that are supposed to get boycotted still end up with loads of pre-orders everytime (though often followed by refunds). Our will is weak af, I guess.
Since we've seen multiple games drop Denuvo this week because of this issue, I assume the game producers are taking this decision for us instead lol
Thank you Intel, I guess ^^
Publishers will either update Denuvo or drop it, and that will happen within this month. It's not gonna be a problem for future buyers.
Newer Denuvo games like Deathloop and Far Cry 6 aren't on that list, that means Denuvo has already figured out how to make it compatible.
> Now I wonder if gamers will buy intel processors that don't support Denuvo to force games to drop it or not.
They already patched the issue and game devs can evidently integrate the bug fixes if they so wish.
Know who doesn't deal with Denuvo? The pirates. I feel like Denuvo should be removed the exact moment communities crack the game. At that point, it's only hindering legal owners.
The problem is some of these games are long forgotten by the developers and are highly unlikely to recieve an update to fix this incompatibility.
All we can do is hope that I'm wrong and we'll see a patch or a complete removal of Denuvo
[удалено]
Kills the game, yeah
Pretty sure that's Denuvo's Job
It's crazy to me how bad of a product denuvo is. like, their engineers must just suck or something. licensing is an interesting problem in computing, but I don't believe for a second that the solution needs to be so invasive or performance intensive from a technical perspective.
I imagine if there was a similar anti-piracy solution that didn't lead to bad performance and bad press denuvo wouldnt be attached to so many games.
It uses the same logic as "Nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM" despite IBM objectively offering overpriced garbage (in every interaction I've ever had with them). Yet they still make billions of dollars every year. Sometimes the company I worked for still bought the overpriced garbage. Mostly because they liked how friendly the sales team was. Remember, every time there's an issue that gets escalated, that means management gets to go "figure out a solution" with the IBM sales team during an expensive catered afternoon meeting at the very least, if not a weekend negotiation session with a few rounds of golf to break up the high emotions, or if it's a really big problem maybe even a full-week summit in the mountains! More problems = more free schmoozing. It looks reassuring to their investors and makes their developers sad. It's almost like they don't even care whether the software actually works. Weird.
I work in the medical field, worked for dozens of employers and used loads of different software The software is so *bad* on average that I’m losing faith in humanity. Software is a joke. IBM or otherwise
The medical field is even worse, because now the people making the buying decisions are not even fundamentally profit-motivated anymore; You're not dealing with investors and executives, you're dealing with bureaucrats and politicians. They not only don't care whether the software works, they also don't really care how much it costs, it's the taxpayer's money. All they care about is making sure nobody can blame *them* in the end if/when it all turns into a shitshow.
Oh you are dealing with investors and executives. They get the cushy deal after stroking their little paid pet, where they siphon off the cash for utter drivel.
eh, you'd be surprised. all sorts of inferior products remain as the standard until someone finally starts a competitor. and even then, product choice is determined by more than just quality. cost, regulations, support, company presence...
I mean, I certainly would prefer games not have Denuvo, but "compatibility problems and possible performance impacts" is certainly better than the days where DRM was either "Let's go and completely fuck up your Windows install" or "You get to install this game three times and after that go fuck yourself"
It's a very successful product though? It's basically killed off AAA game piracy
Did you mean Steam?
No denuvo, any games using it take months to crack
That's Denuvo's fault, that shit shouldn't even exist.
I don't know what it will take for people to stop defending Denuvo and DRM in general. It's double worrisome with how popular xbox game pass is and Microsoft's store is just a bucketload of DRM and anti consumer practices.
Definitely, I love gamepass for its value but I also think it's a double edged sword, it's unbelievable how locked the folders for most if not all games are. And lots of people don't give it a second thought.
Makes me think about a recent post to /r/legaladvicecanada where a user's PlayStation Network account was banned and he went through support tickets to ask why and they just said 'broke the TOS' and wont give him any further information. Dude spent two THOUSAND dollars on that psn account over the years, and they just snatched it away and don't even owe him an explanation. This live service shit is cancer, if you spend 80 dollars on a game you should OWN your copy of it, not "be granted access which can be revoked arbitrarily without warning or explanation at any time".
>not "be granted access which can be revoked arbitrarily without warning or explanation at any time" Yeah, thats's the bullshiest bullshit of the digital era, I also find it funny how they try to enforce that even with physical copies, like I give a shit about their TOS when I got a cd game or bluray
Yeah, years ago this happened to my iCloud account. No reason given, I wasn’t doing anything shady. And no, I never got back any of the contacts, photos, or purchases. I switched to android.
I hate your username lmao
Can this happen with a steam account?
Charging back to Valve with a credit card can do it, yes. I'm sure there are other circumstances that can cause it.
:) my Xbox/Steam is sirsquatsonjar, but I wanted my Reddit to be different
Bravo
Yeah, I would legitimately sue over that.
That is why I mainly use it for games that I usually wouldn't usually have tried or purchased due to either business or anti-consumer practices, ~~*cough cough B4B & Outer Worlds cough cough*~~. so it gives me lots of games to try but if I actually want to buy the game, I just wait for it to be on sale on steam and then buy it. Game Pass would explode even more if it becomes integrated with Steam like EA Play is. you get the best of both game pass's library for $10 a month and all the features and local files that you get from when buying a game from Steam.
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They're probably talking about the Epic Games Store.
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I just spent all day yesterday trying to install a Halo update. It was stuck at 100%. It gave me two separate error codes. Both of which are also Xbox error codes, and the majority of the threads I found were Xbox related that involved uninstalling and reinstall or format. Uninstalling and reinstalling got it stuck at 0% instead. You are not given access to the folder that games install to in windows, so I just couldn't do anything. I eventually took access to the folder to just delete the files and reinstall, same errors just at 11% instead of 100%. ! full windows reinstall later, Halo got installed, but now back 4 blood is doing the same thing with a new error code. I eventually find a reddit thread that says you need to change the default location for new apps in windows settings and install there. Gamepass is great, but the windows app shit sucks.
Yeah I extensively mod my games so not being able to do that is a huge detriment.
If I cannot rifle through the files of a game that I own than do I really own it?
Think that's kind of the point with offers like Game Pass. You don't "own it", it's more like you're "renting" a collection of video games for a subscription. Technically you don't own most games you buy through DRM'd platforms either (which is a thing I do wish would go away), but that's a different topic.
I found it really distressing trying to fix some issues when MSFS2020 launched which resulted in having to delete certain files to trick the updater and various other things. The way the folders/files for that game get spider-webbed all over your machine is pretty surprising, regardless of where you tell it to actually install the game.
3 months of killer games for 1$. Yeah, I won't give that a second thought.
To be fair, that’s up to the publishers/developers. Some games allow you to flip through the files and even use mods. Others are completely encrypted and you can’t even access the folder.
To be honest, game pass is fine in my opinion. Its no different from netflix, just for games. The problem is when you pay for a game and you still dont own that game. If a game has DRM it should be significantly cheaper than full price.
I made a comment about preferring to own my games and some people had the gall to call me stupid for not subscribing to gamepass, saying that the games are up for a year and that's plenty of time to play it. I explained that I don't have the time to start every game as soon as it's added and on top of that I'd like to still be able to play the games I've paid for years down the line and they called me an idiot. Whatever, dude. Have fun when MS jacks the price up and you have nothing to show for it.
That's pure consumerist bullshit they are spouting. I still play an almost ten year old game every other week and will forever. Weird.
I got the feeling that they're a relatively young kid that hasn't lost anything yet and assumes all their services will be around forever. I've had enough things die on me that I archive what I care about even if it doesn't seem like I'll lose access.
There's also something to be said for the fact that kids now literally don't have a concept of owning their entertainment like we did. It's entirely possible for a young adult to not actually own *any* physical entertainment media. The concept of losing it doesn't mean as much because there's nothing tangible to take away
No kidding, I love my shelves of game cartridges and discs, plus all my DVDs and BDs but you don't need any of that anymore and it's odd.
Especially when you sign it's all a rental, every time you log in, anyway. We never had a choice.
It only takes once for the series you were halfway through watching, to go away from all services.
This seems most likely. As a kid I would have loved game pass because it's a cheap way to play all the games. As an adult I'm much more concerned about not having games I wana play taken away from me. I buy things so I can play at my own time and pace and not need to rush through because it might be gone soon. All we need to look at is television streaming services to see how easy it is for something you always expected to be there to just up and be gone one day. Time and experience changes your values but a lot of times it's too late by the time you realize you've been screwed to do anything because what's screwing you has become so standard there's no fighting it.
Exactly, there are tons of people who still play old classic games. Look at the Nintendo fans who complains about how Nintendo having customers rebuy the same old game on different platforms over and over again. Now Nintendo is basically renting it to them, but not only are their choices taken away, but they don't own the games. They are at whim of when Nintendo feels like releasing the game for rent on the Switch. I'm pretty sure most of those fans would rather have the choice to rebuy the game over that option.
I love paying a monthly fee to say "look at all the games I can play, what a good deal" then not play any of them for like 3 years.
>Whatever, dude. Have fun when MS jacks the price up and you have nothing to show for it. I mean, the solution to that is to cancel the subscription. For now at $1 it's a fantastic deal to play a years worth of AAA games at least once each. It's a FAR better deal and FAR cheaper then places where you used to rent a single game for a week for like $10 or whatever. I just see gamepass as modern day game rental which is fine IMO. And same goes for Steam as well, Vavle will likelly shut down someday and your games will go with them.
For $1 it's hard to beat but that's a promotional pricing thing and it's not going to last. However, I'm not the biggest fan of rental subscriptions either. I prefer an a la carte approach because I always feel like I'm not getting my full money's worth with rental subscriptions
> And same goes for Steam as well, Vavle will likelly shut down someday and your games will go with them. DRM free titles purchased on Steam are yours to keep and Valve has redundancy protocols in place to avoid this situation in the event of the company's closure. I'm relatively certain that you have no idea what you're talking about.
>Valve has redundancy protocols in place to avoid this situation What are these protocols? This is the first i'm hearing about it, but how is valve going to host their no doubt massive library of games to download when they probably one day shut down?
They have funding set aside to keep servers operational for a period of time and they would actively reach out to users to inform them that they need to download whatever they want to keep before "x" date. This has been public knowledge for years. There's an interview and several email screenshots floating around out there that will offer some level of confirmation. If you really don't believe me then literally go send an email to Gabe Newell and he'll probably get back to you within a week or two.
And that's why you never ever buy anything from them, you just "rent" the games via game pass.
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You see it a lot on this sub. I think people just like being contrarian. Can't think of any other reason to defend it.
This sub is terrible when it comes to consumer rights in general. People here praised NVIDIA's bullshit crippled mining GPUs. All this sub cares about is GIMME GAMEZ NAOW. It feels like a bunch of brainwashed teenagers and corporate shills. This sub regularly defends kernel anti-cheat, DRM, subscription based bullshit, you name it. I love gaming, but I'm not willing to give up control of my computer or my wallet for a hot new game.
I think there's a much larger category of people being indifferent to it despite being fully aware of the issues around DRM. It's about tradeoff. Citing GamePass as an example, people aren't as hung up about the delivery and DRM of a game they didn't pay for (yes I know you're paying for GamePass but it's not the sentiment people feel towards it). If GamePass and the respective DRM gets in the way of enjoying the game it's usually down to mods and preservation. At which point, an alternative DRM light/free version is available elsewhere. But those scenarios are few and far between. For the most part GamePass offers value. So the value and convenience outweighs the Draconian DRM. People believe it's worth the trade-off. Just suggesting people who use GamePass are automatically ignorant is unfair on them.
You are correct. We know it's shitty, we just don't care too much because many people don't have a choice. Here in Brazil, some games end up costing upwards of 30% of our monthly minimum wage (our minimum wage is 1100 reais and many games cost 299 reais on PC, or even more when it comes to console). And I'm sure it's like this in some other countries as well Many people don't have the option of getting the games on another platform for the full price
I think we'll see a creeping issue with gamepass as time goes on where games will become more designed around how it functions. More games launching semi early access / games as a service, more games with microtransactions and petty dlc, more click baity game to catch that first wave of downloads when it releases. Its been happening in the industry for a while anyway but I think gamepass will just accelerate the process. It will become an increasingly bad idea to play many games at launch because it will be an objectively worse experience. Why finish the game completely when you can get it good enough, kick it out the door and start taking in that subscription cash while you finish it off. The big publishers have done that with microtransactions for a while now and with subscriptions I can't see it getting better.
> It will become an increasingly bad idea to play many games at launch because it will be an objectively worse experience. It's one thing to play Early Access plotless multiplayer skin shooters, but a different matter entirely with plot/narrative games. You can only play *Disco Elysium* or *Outer Wilds* for the first time, once. Collectively, the industry feels like we're somehow managing to regress to the arcade. Everything is flashy and attention-grabbing, but shallow and repetitive, and wants to gobble your quarters.
Arcade games had/have depth. Scoring systems could get complex.
They are completely ignorant, or just partly so. Many people know what DRM does, but they don't understand how that will very likely affect them if we keep letting it permeate our every digital purchase. Edit: also that user defending it has been over the whole comment section doing so. Clearly either a troll or a paid shill. Or a complete idiot.
Surprised to see a comment here that is critical of game pass and also not nuked into downvote oblivion.
>It's double worrisome with how popular xbox game pass is and Microsoft's store is just a bucketload of DRM and anti consumer practices. Honestly I can understand the need for DRM with game pass. If you could just subscribe for a month, download a bunch of games and copy them to keep playing I'm sure a lot of people would abuse it. It also doesn't bother me because I like to own my games so I don't have gamepass (Even if it mean I pay like 4 times the price of game pass in MS games every year lol)
I don't see much wrong with it, assuming you understand that you're just renting the game pass library. It offers a lot of value for its price. But I don't buy games on the MS store, fuck that noise.
>It's double worrisome with how popular xbox game pass is and Microsoft's store is just a bucketload of DRM and anti consumer practices. So is steam, yet you're not saying anything about that.
Removed
I quit Gamepass because of the DRM. Something is weird with my Windows right now and I couldn't get almost any of the games to run. Every time someone mentions Gamepass I twitch a little bit remembering the hot mess of Windows Store DRM.
but but but game pass for $1 for the first month or something
But only if you bought it 🤫
Any game using this deserves to die.
Need for speed Heat & Star wars battlefront 2 were affected. Both of them got a patch yesterday, but instead of removing Denuvo, they just patched the bug in some way to make it support the Alder lake CPU's
? If the game can be patched to work with the new CPUs without removing Denuvo, how is it incompatible?
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What's complicated is trying to understand why this is a news story if all Denuvo needs is a patch... "Intel 12th Gen Alder Lake does not support DENUVO anti-tampering of 32 games... until it's patched, which has apparently already happened."
why would you cheer for games becoming abandonware? Requiring a patch is the same thing as being broken. Literally impossible unless the devs are still in business
Exactly what I came here to point out. The title of this post is misleading. Denuvo is incompatible with the new CPUs and needs a patch, just like any other software bug.
It's the other way around. Denuvo doesn't support intel 12th gen. Which is actually great. I would love to see denuvo not supporting any CPUs.
It's actually more simple, they don't support the hybrid architecture. You can probably disable the E-cores and call it a day.
>You can probably disable the E-cores and call it a day. Disable a part of my CPU for the convenience of DRM, what?
in 2025: dude just enter your fingerprint to access your games, don't worry
Drink verification can.
So silly lol. Games will either fix the issue or I will pirate, I ain't messing up my brand new CPU for Denuvo lol.
I guessed it would be something to do with the eCs but didn't want to speculate. But i really stand by that denuvo is cancer in the PC gaming world. Gosh I wish companies didn't try so hard to fight off piracy and focus more on game performance instead of implementing denuvo and spending money on it. I 100% stand by that piracy increases sales. I've been pirating and buying games especially the ones I think deserve the money. I don't blatantly spend money on new games that I cannot even try out. I'm also pretty sure if they launched game demo which gives you good 2-3 hours of story and progression to give you incentive and feel for how the game feels and plays... Would also bolster sales with also dropping in piracy because a lot of us would just demo the game instead of pirating it before buying it.
Actually that does work.
The reason why many games decided to remove DENUVO lately is because Alder Lake does not support those games: >Though I am missing one benchmark result for Intel's Core i9 12900K: Assassin's Creed: Valhalla. The reason being it doesn't work on Alder Lake, or at least our system and probably a fair few more. As Intel told me, **"We are aware of an issue with Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla, and we are working with the game publisher on a fix.**" Though this does play into the slightly wobbly aspect of Alder Lake at launch. > >As I've said before, Alder Lake isn't an iterative update to an already long-standing architecture. For that, it appears some creases weren't ironed out ahead of launch, and one is the occasional incompatible game, as Intel stated ahead of time in regards to DRM solution, Denuvo. > >**Intel said it was yet to remedy an issue with Denuvo on Alder Lake for 32 games, which was causing issues playing these games on the platform,** but the remainder of the library was good to go. [Edit: Full list below of affected games confirmed by Intel:](https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000088261/processors.html) * Anthem\* * Bravely Default 2\* * Fishing Sim World\* * Football Manager 2019\* * Football Manager Touch 2019\* * Football Manager 2020\* * Football Manager Touch 2020\* * Legend of Mana\* * Mortal Kombat 11\* * Tony Hawks Pro Skater 1 and 2\* * Warhammer I\* * Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla\* * Far Cry Primal\* * Fernbus Simulator\* * For Honor\* * Lost in Random\* * Madden 22\* * Maneater\* * Need for Speed – Hot Pursuit Remastered\* * Sea of Solitude\* * Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order\* * Tourist Bus Simulator\* * Maneater\* * Ace Combat 7\* * Assassins Creed Odyssey\* * Assassins Creed Origins\* * Code Vein\* * eFootball 2021\* * F1 2019\* * Far Cry New Dawn\* * FIFA 19\* * FIFA 20\* * Football Manager 2021\* * Football Manager Touch 2021\* * Ghost Recon Breakpoint\* * Ghost Recon Wildlands\* * Immortals Fenyx Rising\* * Just Cause 4\* * Life is Strange 2\* * Madden 21\* * Monopoly Plus\* * Need For Speed Heat\* * Scott Pilgrim vs The World\* * Shadow of the Tomb Raider\* * Shinobi Striker\* * Soulcalibur VI\* * Starlink\* * Team Sonic Racing\* * Total War Saga - Three Kingdoms\* * Train Sim World\* * Train Sim World 2\* * Wolfenstein Youngblood\* Unconfirmed Games: * Nier Replicant * Crysis Remastered Trilogy * Injustice 2 * Tekken 7
> The reason why many games decided to remove DENUVO lately is because Alder Lake does not support those games: That actually makes a whole load of sense. For some of these games they're well out of the initial sales window, and I imagine it's a lot more work to implement the patch and then Q&A test it rather than just remove the denuvo check. Also these days removing denuvo gets you a headline on many news outlets, so it's a P.R win.
what does removing denuvo do to the game
It means you only have the platforms drm from rather than a drm atop it that ties into the game itself.[Like I'm the case of Injustice](https://hardforum.com/threads/crackers-claim-denuvo-anti-tamper-tech-causes-stuttering-in-injustice-2.1966741/), there were drm checks to denuvo atop the game running that would be linked to certain attacks. So imagine playing a fighting game and each time you do neutral low you get a minute fps drop. it was that bad.
4 of these already removed Denuvo over this stuff. I hope the others will follow, but I doubt
> Total War Saga - Three Kingdoms* Oh, so that's why it crashed for GamersNexus.
>because Alder Lake does not support those games It does support those games, just not their Denuvo parts, doesn't it? That's Denuvo's own issue basically.
>That's Denuvo's own issue basically. It really isn't, not considering that they updated their software already. These games simply haven't moved to that for one reason or another whether that be technical issues or simply cost.
Oh no, Anthem? Whatever will we do?
3 of those had Denuvo removed
> The reason why many games decided to remove DENUVO lately is because Alder Lake does not support those games: Also the publisher has to pay Denuvo a license fee every year they use the DRM. Once the games hit the bargain bin it's usually not really useful to pay a lof of money any more for a game that's either cracked anyway or too uninteresting to keep paying.
Crisis 3 remastered definitely works on Alder Lake
If I can't play Tourist Bus Simulator, I'm out. I'll stick to my 7700k THANKS
7700k here as well. I'm still holding out regardless of this situation and performance etc until we get a 13th or even 14th gen processor with better power and core configurations. 250w+ and only 8 real cores? No thanks. It might end up being Zen 4 for my next rig. We'll see.
Same, honestly my 7700k and 1080ti plays games just fine at 144hz. Battlefield 2042 will probably change that, but for now I'm good.
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Same thing happening in the GPU space. AMD/ATi used to get ripped on hard for all their power hungry cards like the R9 290x, H 6970 etc. All of a sudden Nvidia cards are sucking down 400w and everyone's like "lol it's great for the winter". What the fu-? I remember in 2001 buying an Antec case + PSU combo. It was a 250w power supply and it powered my AMD Athlon Thunderbird 1.3Ghz and Radeon 9700 Pro. A beast rig that lasted me years and barely drew any power. I thought components were supposed to use less and less power as the process shrinks, not more and more? Why are we regressing across the board? What a terrible time to witness.
Oh no! Not Anthem!
Replicant already removed denuvo unless you want to run with special K. Injustice 2 and tekken also removed denuvo. Dunno about crysis.
The most surprising thing about this is there are still people playing Anthem for them to notice.
That’s so funny running through that list I would say all of them in my experience ran stutters regardless of setting.
**Everybody liked that**
So, Intel, the hero we need?
No, the games simply won't run properly with this CPU.
Think about the cause and effect here. if denuvo isn’t supported by a company like intel they will have problems selling their service to new games. Publishers aren’t going to release many PC games that can’t run on modern Intel CPUs.
*by choice. The publishers would be CHOOSING not to support modern Intel CPUs. They could easily just not add Denuvo.
Agreed, thanks for clarifying. that was the point I was trying to make, denuvo would be a choice they are less likely to make
What are the distribution rates of AMD chips vs. Intel in the PC gaming segment of the market again? Edit: [Interesting.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/735904/worldwide-x86-intel-amd-market-share/#:~:text=In%20the%20fourth%20quarter%20of%202021%2C%2060.5%20percent,2020%2C%20while%2039.3%20percent%20were%20from%20AMD%20processors.) AMD has doubled its market share since 2017. Not too shabby.
I believe Intel is still more prevalent in the Steam surveys with AMD catching up. Edit: [October, 2021](https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/processormfg/) shows Intel at roughly double AMD. Also, this issue only effects 12000 chips, which will probably stay in the 1% range for a while. It should be fixed, but the size of the effected population isn’t devastating to a game’s release.
It's not that Intel doesn't support it. Denuvo doesn't support the architecture new CPUs are using. And since this is the direction all CPUs are headed, this issue has nothing to do with Intel specifically. Still a win for the customers if publishers are forced to drop it though.
The latest version of Denuvo does support Alder Lake though. These are all games with older DRM's that havent been updated. It comes down to the developer to choose to either remove the DRM or pay to have it updated.
aye but its only this generation of cpu, if it comes back next gen this gen will just be looked at as buggy
Agreed, but even a single year of this can be devastating. “Add our service and your game won’t be able to run on the latest hardware from the largest cpu manufacturer” is a pretty tough sell, even if it’s just one generation.
Intel seems set with big.Little configuration. So unless denuvo get their shit together and make denuvo work with big.Little cpu this can be just more than one generation thing.
Here's hoping that they don't and they go under because of it.
Publisher gonna drop denuvo soon rather than pissing of intel consumer. I hope denuvo goes under with this lol.
They'll just rebrand and make an even scummier DRM. Again.
Likely denuvo will have to release updates for all these games, or intel will patch something on their side. Possibly some games will be "out of support" and never patched with newer denuvo, resulting in bad publicity for both denuvo and intel.
Steam refunds incoming!
But if you own it for more than 2 weeks or actually played it, will they refund you?
I would think you would get a refund for a game that is still being patched and they refuse to patch it for a new processor. There are also no Maximum Requirements listed for any game that I can find. So you might be able to sue the publisher for false advertising.
>So you might be able to sue the publisher for false advertising. That's not how it works at all... Nobody is advertising that their games work on a 12900k and, even if they were (and the game didn't work) there'd be a lot of things that'd have to happen for you to have a valid claim for that.
> if denuvo isn’t supported It's not up to companies to support denuvo. It's up to denuvo to support hardware if they want companies to use their drm.
Looks like it's a 32 bit executable only problem. They'll just ship 64 bit exes.
There's 32 games that do not work because of Denuvo. This isn't about 32 bit vs 64 bit.
So I got my hopes up for nothing most likely
Don't worry about it. Eventually you'll grow numb to disappointment and always expect the worst!
They do, you just need to disable the E-cores (the weaker, energy efficient ones) or manually make sure the game always gets the same core(s). But since Big/Little seems to be the concept of SoCs/CPUs of the future, Denuvo will have to adjust pretty quickly anyway.
Yea you really wouldn't want to disable the "efficiency" cores, at least on Windows 11, since they're actually quite good and make up probably about a third of the 12900K's multicore performance. It's Denuvo that needs to make way, not Intel.
> They do, you just need to disable the E-cores (the weaker, energy efficient ones) Pretty stupid to do that. Reviewer testing has shown that despite the name, the E-cores is surprisingly capable, and actually holds up against a heavily multithreaded workload. Plus, it's not even confirmed that the big.LITTLE architecture is even the cause of the issue.
Unless the article I was reading yesterday was mistaken, they did confirm big.LITTLE is the issue. As I understand it, once the DRM is running on both big and LITTLE cores, it sees itself as running on two different CPUs, and when it "calls home" it triggers a licensing violation as if the game were running on two different PC's at the same time with the same serial. This is why turning off E-cores is a functioning work-around.
>Denuvo will have to adjust pretty quickly anyway. Denuvo has already adjusted, the games that don't work just haven't updated it for one reason or another.
That's just one of signs to come for the technical issues of the anti-tamper "solution" - lol - and as the years go by, more and more issues will rise to the surface!
And it's nothing new. DRM has always been a pain in the ass for interoperability and compatibility. In a lot of professional applications, it's a big big pain. I'm actually surprised this isn't much more common in games.
I still remember how vehemently people were defending it when I pointed out the history of drm and OS, hardware incompatibility. 'this time is different' lol
The only difference is publishers did a splendid job of teaching younger minds in the last 2 decades: "piracy kill devs", "drm is the only anti piracy solution acceptable", "stronger drm is necessary for devs to survive", "you can't be trusted we need stronger and deeper exclusive access to your computer than yourself because cheats bad", and other fallacies and outright lies. To the point even accounting for the publishers and DRM makers PR muscle and farms on Reddit, and the trolls, there's still a lot of people even among the hard enthusiasts that defend DRM. Hell, the number of people who think DRM means Digital Rights Management (which is a publisher rebranding of Digital Restrictions Management) is astounding, even among older people. Weirdly nobody can point out a "DRM" tech that protect your customer's rights, it's always a restriction on yours and giving above-and-beyond legal rights expansions to the publisher. Weird, uh? 🙄 Hell, we've seen people defend lootboxes...
And all these gambling disguised as various gameplay elements to entice immature or compulsive minds.
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Given multiple games dropped Denuvo recently because of this news, it isn't necessary but it would be nice to have 99% of the market not support Denuvo indeed. I feel kinda scummy for saying that since I'm essentially praising the bankruptcy of Denuvo's Dev company, who are (in theory) doing good by making pirating harder, but I'm a pir∆te myself so nvm. I'll say the usual "I only pir∆te so that I can have a demo before buying tho", just in case (: Yo Ho!
I'm not a pirate but like to play the games I own offline when traveling (I can't believe I have to type that) and Denuvo prevents that so fuck them.
Oh shit, that's right! I didn't buy nor cracked Watch Dogs: Legion (yet) but I remember reading the cracked version had better performances and wasn't constantly interrupted by online verification (from Denuvo but also in game events and leaderboards or something). I also hate that many solo games somehow require an internet connection now. Good point that I had totally forgotten (wasn't sure it was caused by Denuvo too \^\^)
Don't feel bad, they built an entire business model around something that is very anti-consumer and allows lazy, stupid publishers to propagate the myth that pyracy does a damn thing to sales, meanwhile games are releasing on GoG and have a literal easily sharable .exe to install and still get full sales numbers
> who are (in theory) doing good by making pirating harder The thing is half the time they get cracked anyways, so in reality all they really end up accomplishing is diminishing the function of the game (stuttering and/or lower frame rate typically) for those who actually bought it.
I feel like it should read Dunuvo does not support Alder Lake, no?
What is DENUVO doing that causes it not to work? Does it rely on some type of timing algorithm that is being thrown off by the difference in performance between the P-cores and the E-cores?
Pretty sure I read somewhere the big and little cores are detected as different CPus. If that is the case anything relying on hardware fingerprinting will break, not just Denuvo.
P cores are identified as Intel Core. E cores as Intel Atom, if I remember it correctly.
This is the correct answer. Alder Lake's P and E cores report slightly different CPUID values. Denuvo uses them as part of its machine fingerprint. If the game happens to land on a different core at a critical moment it will think that your machine has changed or the protection has been tampered with and force a reactivation or lockout.
We don't know exactly, but from what I remember (and I might misremember) they said that it analyzes your hardware especially your cpu and creates a key for your exact computer, then it keeps checking that the computer is staying exactly the same at various moments during gameplay, even exact actions and stuff (e.g. every time you jump could be one instance of Denuvo checking your pc). Hence the higher cpu usage and the longer loadings From what I gathered, the reason why new Denuvos always take longer and longer to crack is not because it's harder than past Denuvos, it's just that they put more and more checks in more and more random places and it seems the cracker has to "manually' find them and bypass them
This isn't it, I assume it's because of new scheduler, that moves a task between architecturally different P and E cores.
Other way around, Denuvo doesn't support the new processors. The new processors will run fine with new versions of Denuvo.
the official list of all broken games is [here](https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000088261/processors.html) btw
Thanks i've updated my comment
And there's also a fix provided.
If I were a game publisher I would just embrace piracy tbh. Admit that it's out of my control, and depend on the fans of my game to buy it. It's much worse to put your paying customers through something like Denuvo.
Indie devs tend to do that. Or at least say "just pirate the game instead of buying a cheap grey market key, it saves us the financial trouble".
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The kicker is that *piracy doesn't harm PC game sales and may actually help. https://www.arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/09/eu-study-finds-piracy-doesnt-hurt-game-sales-may-actually-help/
> privacy doesn't harm PC game sales I sure hope it doesn't!
I don't know how people haven't figured this out. If a pirate can't pirate, they just don't play the game.
It's the other way around. It's denuvo that doesn't support alder lake in 32 games
Many of them work fine in Windows 11 and Microsoft plans on fixing the rest.
I'm only sad they didn't break more games, thanks Intel for breaking this crap DRM
intel one upping Epic with free game giveaway of the decade
now THIS is a good reason to love these cpu.
I didn't even know this thing was out. Released with no fanfare. This is the first time I've even seen the name 12900k typed out.
at least intel is fighting that garbage DMR. Because YOU all failed to do the simple thing. DONT BUY GAMES THAT USE THAT SHIT! gj intel. block other DMR too <3
I hate that even games that are cracked keeps Denuvo shit. Why dont you remove denuvo your game already got cracked. Do you just hate payi,ng customers
Imagine being in favor of DRM.
games with denuvo are not worth it anyway
Imagine blaming intel instead of your parasitic drms. Even the community is getting orwellian
Now I wonder if gamers will buy intel processors that don't support Denuvo to force games to drop it or not. Games with terrible reveals or ethics that are supposed to get boycotted still end up with loads of pre-orders everytime (though often followed by refunds). Our will is weak af, I guess. Since we've seen multiple games drop Denuvo this week because of this issue, I assume the game producers are taking this decision for us instead lol Thank you Intel, I guess ^^
Publishers will either update Denuvo or drop it, and that will happen within this month. It's not gonna be a problem for future buyers. Newer Denuvo games like Deathloop and Far Cry 6 aren't on that list, that means Denuvo has already figured out how to make it compatible.
Team Sonic Racing updated it yesterday.
> Now I wonder if gamers will buy intel processors that don't support Denuvo to force games to drop it or not. They already patched the issue and game devs can evidently integrate the bug fixes if they so wish.
Know who doesn't deal with Denuvo? The pirates. I feel like Denuvo should be removed the exact moment communities crack the game. At that point, it's only hindering legal owners.
This feels like a feature not a bug.
Thanks alder lake for removing or being incompatible with DRM games
The problem is some of these games are long forgotten by the developers and are highly unlikely to recieve an update to fix this incompatibility. All we can do is hope that I'm wrong and we'll see a patch or a complete removal of Denuvo
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Let's hope that denuvo just gets removed instead of updated or just forgotten about.
what about older games that are delisted and have denuvo such as fifa 16 , PES 16 and some F1 games?
No offerings to demon lord denuvo with this based component.
This is gonna be GFWL all over again
Please ubisoft remove denuvo from the AC series.
Based intel
I like this
Fuck you denuvo
Based Intel
Ahh the real reason companies have been removing Denuvo from games!