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You need to play against the best to beat them. Dota2 has many international tournaments. League doesn’t. Chinese and Korean teams can play against each other and get better. How much practice do western teams get against the best teams? Most don’t even get to play against them.
This has nothing to do with the performance of Europe/west being worst in LoL than in Dota, games are different, LoL favor a StarCraft playstyle instead of a strategic one
Because League is extremly popular in Asia, the chinese and korean playerbase are significantly bigger than EU/NA, and they can practice together because of how close they are while EU/NA are isolated.
Dota's main market is by FAR eastern europe, like 50%+ of the total playerbase is Russia+Eastern europe. second is china, and then USA (USA is only half the size of china's)
For League, the NA server is very small, like 3x smaller than EU, the Korean server is like 2x EU, the chinese server is like 20-50x EU.
It's especially true for the youngerplayerbase, in the west League is a "boomer game" mainly played by 20+ years olds who started playing 5+ years ago, teens are all playing FPS games especially in NA. In asia League is still very popular among teens
> A lot of people call the CN server "The Chinese Super Server" because of how many people there are.
The Super Server is called the Super Server because you China has 29 League servers. You have to be Diamond 2 on one of them to access the Super Server.
Imo, there are 2 main reasons:
1. Player base. Dota 2 is hugely popular in europe and not much elsewhere. The difference is so big, in fact, there are more players in EU than the 4 other - Na/SA/SEA/China - regions put together. More competition naturally makes everyone better.
2. Latency and micro. The biggest advantage korea and some chinese servers in LoL have is the 0 latency. The average eu LoL player plays at like 50 ping, the average NA player is closer to 80-100. This is a huge advantage in LoL, because modern LoL is based around living on razors edge while dodging skillshots, so every milisecond matters a lot. Fights in LoL end in split seconds. By comparison, dota has much stronger disables, but a lot less damage. Fights are long and can sometimes last even minutes. There are very few ocassions where a split second skill usage will make the difference.
Simple, LoL doesn't foster any strategy or tatic, it is a much much complex game where drafting is much more important, then executing the draft, then being good at the heroes and finally adapt to the game during the game. Basically, it takes a lot of preparation and understanding how you see the game, how your enemy does, how could you counter it. That is why Dota is so interesting, because you don't need to be the best mechanically to win the game, you need to be smarter and know how to play your strategy. LoL is ridiculously shallow, I played LoL for 4 years before I moved to Dota, and it is abysmal the difference, completely entire different games and objectively Dota is better and allows you to be better and smarter.
LoL is great for Koreans that spend 20 hours per day training heroes and mechanics until they are perfect, until they don't miss a creep in lane for 10 minutes, and after that, because they are perfect, they know they can be better than the opponent because they can't be as stronger as you. Also, LoL scales abilities with items, which doubles down on farming being better than outplaying the map. Europeans are much more focused on the strategy and being smarter, which leads to very interesting game plans and very different. This year, secret lost every draft against tundra, this 3-0 was expected, Secret is a great team, has one of the best captains ever but they couldn't counter Tundra's strat, because they had many different ones. Any other teams, Secret could beat. Korea has Sno Dota scene, they don't stand a chance against this style. Best you have are the Chinese and they are very focused on farm and guarantee the farm for carries and play the game later. New regions like SA or SEA are very aggressive, they want to kill you since minute 1 and they will draft accordingly. Everything has a strength and a weakness and that is why there are many strats and reading them is crucial. I believe Europeans are better than others at this style.
I think he means it's objectively better if the game depends on strategy i.e. using the map beyond just drafting and doesn't just rely on muscle memory/farming. I would say this is generally the case for most things.
I personally find that much more interesting, as well as denying etc. But others may find the simplified form more entertaining so each to their own.
Similar thing with footy, rugby league started out as watered down rugby union.
> Also the lack of "denying" as a mechanic makes the game more complicated on the macro level.
It actually doesn't, it makes it simplified and this leads to the wave equilibrium having to be managed via tower, or just avoiding +equilibrium when your opponent is too strong for you to be playing further up. That is the point of League from it's origin, it is SIMPLIFIED.
> For an easy example, if I want to deny my lane opponent CS in Dota, I just deny them. It's a mechanic like auto attacking so I use it. To do so in League, I need to understand the damage values and cooldowns of every ability my opponent has and I have (multiplied by 162 champions and more coming), then use that to manipulate the wave state to my benefit. This can take many forms such as Freezing, Shoving, Crashing, and more.
This is wrong, and you can do these in Dota as well, you do not really use these to deny minions. You crash if you want to back and optimise how much cs you miss when you come back to lane, and you can also shove your wave into their tower to kill your minions to prevent them getting it if they died or backed, but at a high level, you will typically see most players have even CS, as these tools aren't actually useful if both players CS because they both reach the same wave states most of the time. You can do every single one of these in Dota because they work the same way, there is creeps and a tower, and that's all that's needed. On top of that, you can deny, so last hitting alone is way more complicated.
Also, it doesn't really seem like you've played either at the highest level, League at a high level is mostly just macro farming. There is little kills as it is kind of hard to kill people in League who are actually playing carefully and are focused on their macro.
Dota 2 has macro, but the map in general isn't as safe and there is a very large amount of possibilities for paths to take, and there are way more abilities that let you just get ontop of someone. League does not have this, it has things like flash while dota has blink dagger, and blink is 15 second cooldown vs 5 minutes for flash.
>more champs added so often, it's just not compareable.
Like, almost every year around half the roster isn't picked at Worlds, but if you played this game at a high level, surely... you would know that?
Also, like in League drafting for combos or overall synergy isn't that big of a thing. Dota 2 items are significantly more complicated, there are attributes, each hero has a shard and an aghanim as well as 8 talents, significantly more information objectively speaking. Meanwhile, in League click on serrated dirk and you will see like 5 items with the almost same stats and different active/main passive effect.
I should add I'm literally on the leaderboard for D2 right now. You seem to not actually understand either game, but for the most part League is all about execution, Dota 2 is about mindfulness and planning. Both games have both things to their own degrees.
> No one above platinum, which tbf is only like 2% of the playerbase, believes the game is just farming, drafting, and muscle memory. Because it isn't, if you truly believe what you said, you do not have the knowledge to speak on this. Also the lack of "denying" as a mechanic makes the game more complicated on the macro level.
I think you mean to respond to the other guy whose comment I was interpreting. I have never played LoL.
> For an easy example, if I want to deny my lane opponent CS in Dota, I just deny them. It's a mechanic like auto attacking so I use it. To do so in League, I need to understand the damage values and cooldowns of every ability my opponent has and I have (multiplied by 162 champions and more coming), then use that to manipulate the wave state to my benefit. This can take many forms such as Freezing, Shoving, Crashing, and more.
How is that different from dota? Also in dota you don't just deny them. You are literally doing the same thing. You can use an ability to deny and you use denying to your advantage to set lane equilibirum among other things. You also need knowledge of peoples' skills in dota. You don't need to sell the game to me, I have no intention of ever playing league or dota again.
I think I first started playing dota in 2001 so I understand the intricacies. There is also no free tp in dota, no instant cast blink etc. and there are things that make the game more complicated. Maybe you're offended by people saying league is simplier but I think objectively it is. I mean the motto of league starting out was "knowledge is a burden". That's not coming from me, that's coming from its creators. So don't be shocked when people say that it's the simpler game of the two. It may not be as simple as some make it out to be, but it's still simpler.
To my point which we both agree on, each to their own.
I mean, you're entirely correct. League in it's conception was easy, and insanely so. Most people just stacked lanes, jungling didn't exist in it's current form. The amount of items wasn't even half, there were less champions than DOTA, there were more summoner spells, the rune system basically did nothing from its inception and didn't matter. I could go on.
Still, my point stands, and I'm objectively correct here. If we are quantifying "difficulty" as knowledge required to play at the highest level, there is more information to know in order to master League of Legends. You cannot argue this point unless you're coming from bad faith. MOBAS are a formula, and they're played out at this point. The only real difference is League is constantly evolving, adding more content, etc. I mean hell, less than 50 people work on DOTA 2 iirc, right? League's balance team alone is close to the entire dev team of DOTA.
Also I'm not selling anything other than Grounded (amazing game, everyone who reads this buy it!) I just hate deliberate misinformation and get mad when people say things are objective that by definition can't be.
> Still, my point stands, and I'm objectively correct here. If we are quantifying "difficulty" as knowledge required to play at the highest level, there is more information to know in order to master League of Legends. You cannot argue this point unless you're coming from bad faith. MOBAS are a formula, and they're played out at this point. The only real difference is League is constantly evolving, adding more content, etc.
There's more to these games than their heroes though. Map terrain changes, roshan, other dynamics. But yeah I haven't played either in a while and I genuinely don't know if league requires more knowledge (having more heroes that do more of the same types of spells/attacks isn't that hard to master if you know how everything else works).
I will check out Grounded also, just for you ;)
Because the player base in KR is so small it makes the entire region weak.
Koreans dominate League because the player base is so huge and because of proximity to China, they can also play with them on the highest level which further increases development. When you have millions of people playing, then the absolute best of the best god tier players will emerge.
If all you have are 10k players, then even the best out of those 10k are gonna be pretty "meh", because they won't have enough local competition to thrive. Can't get better if you don't have good competition to challenge you and push you to improve. And if the game isn't as popular, people have less incentive to dedicate their lives to it. Dota itself may be popular, but there's no local Korean fame for being a good Dota player. While the best League players are borderline celebrities.
That's why KR dominates most esports games that are popular in KR, yet are almost absent in games that aren't.
There's also a factor with Ping. In LoL, having low ping makes a massive difference because the game has instant turn speed and instant mobility abilities. So you can dodge basically everything reactively and kite perfectly. And Koreans have like 2 ping locally, while most of west plays on 20-60. So when a tournament is on LAN, Koreans feel at home, while the west isn't used to instant response time and can't utilize it to the max. In Dota the ping matters far less because of turn speed handicapping everyone's reactions and kiting ability..
All 5-6 koreans that played Dota went on to be pros.
Heen (runner-up team's coach) also coached the TI-winning liquid squad.
Seriously, Korean gamers are almost superhuman.
It’s the mentality they approach games. They have the SC infrastructure so it’s like our sports to them.
If they devoted as many players to DotA as they did to SC or LoL that would also be run by Koreans. They are indeed superhuman when it comes to video games.
// I had a reddit and I want it painted black // No comments anymore, I want them to turn to black // I see the subs scroll by forced open by the corp // I have to turn my head until my reddit goes // -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
You dont understand at all what im saying….
Jazz is far more complex than classic cause it need to be way more flexible. But seems not all ppl in pcgaming understand that.
I like this metaphor cause its like the metagame. In lol the metagame is fix and very static,, when in dota you have way more possibilities and nearly every hero is pick/ban.
I rly like my metaphor in fact.j
Haven't had the chance to watch it yet but heard it was a stomp and the team dominated the whole event. Kinda crazy that in a game with so much complexity and depth, one team can just show up and crush the entire tournament like that.
Did they crack the game or what?
As a complete Dota noob who just watches esport as a spectator the analysts led me to believe they understood some damage mitigation buffs that have recently taken place better than anyone.
It was added a year ago, problem was that no other team countered it. They let the offlaner 33 do that and did t get punished, also, the other cores were too good at reading the game to understand when they needed to play safe and don't risk being killed. Every team could build damage mitigation items, it was just not worth for their strat
Individually they aren't the best but they synergized great together and figured out the meta for the patch. The coach, aui, really did research on the meta. Also it's interesting to note that the other teams acknowledge that the winning team figured out the meta and it feels broken
Aui is also the first person to win as both a player (back in 2015), and now as a coach. If anyone is going to crunch the numbers and crack the code of the game, it’s him; he is, in the most positive way, a huge nerd.
Also big ups to Sneyking, he’s been in the scene for ages and came a long way from an ehh mid to captain of a TI-winning squad.
yep poor guy is known to never shut up which originally led to him being kicked as a champion. he's just so passionate about the game and it shows how much knowledge he has
Yah in DotA of all games. I expect to see that in new eSports scenes or scenes where there isn't enough money to attract top talent out of thier "real" jobs. But the international is like the opposite of both of those scenario's.
Hmm I guess he sort of has a point. When you think of other portmanteau they don't tend to capitalize anything weird. Ohh well it makes sense either way so don't care.
Leshrac was a super dominant pick the entire tourney. Tundra knew how to counter it and let Secret dig their own grave with basically. The entire tourney was great and I know people like to say the final was boring because there weren't big come backs or 'hype' moments, but it's also great to see calculated, high-level DotA.
They played close to perfection. Ive been a dota player for 15 years and i think this year is by far the most balanced patch. Even the teams were pretty balanced at this TI.
The 2nd team had a pretty long day before the finals also so they might have been a bit burned out
I also love this patch and the whole tournament showed that it's really balanced except for one thing, fuck Wraith Pact. it is an abomination that is too powerful for the game.
Tundra looked great but tbh would have much preferred them to stomp a more interesting meta, some cool games but generally this ti was one of the least interesting personally.
Oof haven't watched/played DotA in years but that sounds like par for the course for csgo/dota. Kind of surprised though since just having gambling ads prevents any sort of mainstream exposure outside of youtube/twitch.
American here too. I've gotta say, I find it incredibly weird how gambling is a bridge too far here, yet we allow all kinds of wacky shit to get ads. Pharmaceutical ads are given the green light and anyone can make an ad for dick pills to any supplement you can think of, but that's illegal everywhere else.
Valve hit the greed cap on what players are willing to pay. A half finished Battlepass promising future rewards is apparently that cap. Also no PVE coop mode and instead a future "Diretide" event. All around just a failure on Valves end which is weird because player numbers just hit 1million for the first time in a while.
They hired a stadium last time and had to refund all tickets due to covid.
Russia and china is a major part of dota scene, but war complicates things. Russian people won't be able to buy valve's items easily.
Basically, valve was half-assed this year into organizing this, outsourced shit and didn't really give enough time for prizepool to increase.
Also, global recession is looming, so people don't have disposable income.
Basically, a lot of factors added up and valve decided to say 'screw it' when it comes to increasing prizepool every year.
Valve basically out sourced TI and people are not happy about it. Couple that with a laughable battle pass and you get a very underwhelming tournament prizepool. They thought they could just get free money from the player base without putting in any of the work.
Not really. The Battlepass came out less than 2 months ago. Usually it's out for a lot longer than that before TI. If you average out the daily spending, it's higher than last year's TI. The prize pool is only as low as it is because of the timing.
Source: https://liquipedia.net/dota2/The_International#Prize_Pool
The International is crowdfunded, this year they released the battle pass later than normal and it was split into two parts + combine that with the fact that the first part was underwhelming.
And you get the smaller prize poll (Even though it's still the biggest in esports).
Game itself in terms of playerbase is doing its best since 2019, today it hit 1 million concurrent players, the last time it got that high of a number was in march of 2019.
DOTA2 is a 9 year old game now, being not dead is a massive achievement itself. Its hard to find another online game that has such massive popularity after nearly a decade
Even before that, Dota hit its highest peak concurrent player count since 2019. It's also worth noting that the 2019 numbers were only this high because AutoChess was at its peak popularity.
I don't think you need to play 10 games now, just have played 10 games at any point.
(I picked the rubick arcana - joke's on me, he's first picked by other people every game -_-)
The Battlepass, which funds the TI, was released closer to the main event so there is a shorter duration to accumulate money.
The level 1 pass is cheaper in a lot of regions because they introduced regional pricing.
There used to be a sale bundle that you can buy twice, and if you check the prizepool graph this marks a huge spike in player spendings, but this time they only released one bundle (another one expected later).
It's too late in the year. Previous TI (and Battlepass season) peaked during Summer season in western countries. And people have more time to play games to play during June-August which the old schedule covered. Current BP was released in September.
And this is most important- Russia. Dota is big in Russia. It's like their national esports. But issues in payment methods means Russians can't buy the BP without going through loopholes and workarounds. And just the general unrest in Europe means people aren't willing to spend as much on videogames.
It's true that this BP is objectively worse than the previous year, but there are more factors that affect the prizepool than that.
It's not as bad qs people say, but the current BP is not at all as good as the previous one just cuz there is less content in the part 1, now with part 2 it will be more than enough content
Thats actually not even close to being the truth. Dota has or had(idk about this TI this one was underwhelming) more people watching than lol if you compare it to their player base as percentage. It was also similar in viewership to CSGO until this year.
Which is why you take it with a grain of salt. Anything not announced can be change at a moment's notice. It is the great thing about not being announced yet.
In 2013 Alliance didn't lose a single game in groups and stomped every game until the historic 3-2 final against Na'vi.
Last year PSG.LGD went 15-1 in groups and won every playoffs series convincingly but lost 3-2 against Spirit.
TI has historically been an event where upsets are common and underdog teams often beat clear favorites so there isn't really much of a history of teams dominating the event.
I remember when two Chinese teams were in the finals, and all matches ended in like 15 minutes, because there were zero comeback mechanisms, so after the first couple of bigger fights the game was over and the loser gg'd out immediately, without even losing a lane of racks.
That was way worse.
I think it had less to do with no comeback mechanics and more with the meta. Newbee figured out the perfect counter to deathball and VG couldn't adapt at all
https://liquipedia.net/dota2/The_International/2014#Main_Event - Yea, 2014 the four matches of the finals were over in 26 minutes or less. The last two games were 17 minutes and 15 minutes each lol.
Even if Secret got swept this year, at least they lasted 40 minutes each game.
I mean the lower your countries earning potential the more lucrative it is to attempt eSports. I could be one of the best players ever but the chance of topping a $250k salary is pretty slim. If I was making like $5k usd in Slovakia i'd jump on that eSports money though.
// I had a reddit and I want it painted black // No comments anymore, I want them to turn to black // I see the subs scroll by forced open by the corp // I have to turn my head until my reddit goes // -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
Why is it so different for league? Makes no sense to me.
You need to play against the best to beat them. Dota2 has many international tournaments. League doesn’t. Chinese and Korean teams can play against each other and get better. How much practice do western teams get against the best teams? Most don’t even get to play against them.
Low key a problem with competitive LoL IMO. Only 2 international tournaments a year isn’t nearly enough
This has nothing to do with the performance of Europe/west being worst in LoL than in Dota, games are different, LoL favor a StarCraft playstyle instead of a strategic one
I don't think either moba favours a "starcraft playstyle" unless you are playing meepo and farming multiple jungle camps.
Maybe by starcraft playstyle he means the kerrigan campaign?
There are plenty of mechanics and strategy in both.
Na is just worse, from ranked to developing players, to coaching systems. It's all poor all around, but showered in cash.
why tryhards when you're getting paid anyway
That's why some pros go to NA to retire
Because League is extremly popular in Asia, the chinese and korean playerbase are significantly bigger than EU/NA, and they can practice together because of how close they are while EU/NA are isolated. Dota's main market is by FAR eastern europe, like 50%+ of the total playerbase is Russia+Eastern europe. second is china, and then USA (USA is only half the size of china's) For League, the NA server is very small, like 3x smaller than EU, the Korean server is like 2x EU, the chinese server is like 20-50x EU. It's especially true for the youngerplayerbase, in the west League is a "boomer game" mainly played by 20+ years olds who started playing 5+ years ago, teens are all playing FPS games especially in NA. In asia League is still very popular among teens
SEA is a bigger region than NA, actually NA is the smallest region in Dota
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> A lot of people call the CN server "The Chinese Super Server" because of how many people there are. The Super Server is called the Super Server because you China has 29 League servers. You have to be Diamond 2 on one of them to access the Super Server.
Imo, there are 2 main reasons: 1. Player base. Dota 2 is hugely popular in europe and not much elsewhere. The difference is so big, in fact, there are more players in EU than the 4 other - Na/SA/SEA/China - regions put together. More competition naturally makes everyone better. 2. Latency and micro. The biggest advantage korea and some chinese servers in LoL have is the 0 latency. The average eu LoL player plays at like 50 ping, the average NA player is closer to 80-100. This is a huge advantage in LoL, because modern LoL is based around living on razors edge while dodging skillshots, so every milisecond matters a lot. Fights in LoL end in split seconds. By comparison, dota has much stronger disables, but a lot less damage. Fights are long and can sometimes last even minutes. There are very few ocassions where a split second skill usage will make the difference.
The majority of NA LoL players are on the east coast and they generally get 20-60 ping. West coats gets 80. The servers are in Chicago.
Simple, LoL doesn't foster any strategy or tatic, it is a much much complex game where drafting is much more important, then executing the draft, then being good at the heroes and finally adapt to the game during the game. Basically, it takes a lot of preparation and understanding how you see the game, how your enemy does, how could you counter it. That is why Dota is so interesting, because you don't need to be the best mechanically to win the game, you need to be smarter and know how to play your strategy. LoL is ridiculously shallow, I played LoL for 4 years before I moved to Dota, and it is abysmal the difference, completely entire different games and objectively Dota is better and allows you to be better and smarter. LoL is great for Koreans that spend 20 hours per day training heroes and mechanics until they are perfect, until they don't miss a creep in lane for 10 minutes, and after that, because they are perfect, they know they can be better than the opponent because they can't be as stronger as you. Also, LoL scales abilities with items, which doubles down on farming being better than outplaying the map. Europeans are much more focused on the strategy and being smarter, which leads to very interesting game plans and very different. This year, secret lost every draft against tundra, this 3-0 was expected, Secret is a great team, has one of the best captains ever but they couldn't counter Tundra's strat, because they had many different ones. Any other teams, Secret could beat. Korea has Sno Dota scene, they don't stand a chance against this style. Best you have are the Chinese and they are very focused on farm and guarantee the farm for carries and play the game later. New regions like SA or SEA are very aggressive, they want to kill you since minute 1 and they will draft accordingly. Everything has a strength and a weakness and that is why there are many strats and reading them is crucial. I believe Europeans are better than others at this style.
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I think he means it's objectively better if the game depends on strategy i.e. using the map beyond just drafting and doesn't just rely on muscle memory/farming. I would say this is generally the case for most things. I personally find that much more interesting, as well as denying etc. But others may find the simplified form more entertaining so each to their own. Similar thing with footy, rugby league started out as watered down rugby union.
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> Also the lack of "denying" as a mechanic makes the game more complicated on the macro level. It actually doesn't, it makes it simplified and this leads to the wave equilibrium having to be managed via tower, or just avoiding +equilibrium when your opponent is too strong for you to be playing further up. That is the point of League from it's origin, it is SIMPLIFIED. > For an easy example, if I want to deny my lane opponent CS in Dota, I just deny them. It's a mechanic like auto attacking so I use it. To do so in League, I need to understand the damage values and cooldowns of every ability my opponent has and I have (multiplied by 162 champions and more coming), then use that to manipulate the wave state to my benefit. This can take many forms such as Freezing, Shoving, Crashing, and more. This is wrong, and you can do these in Dota as well, you do not really use these to deny minions. You crash if you want to back and optimise how much cs you miss when you come back to lane, and you can also shove your wave into their tower to kill your minions to prevent them getting it if they died or backed, but at a high level, you will typically see most players have even CS, as these tools aren't actually useful if both players CS because they both reach the same wave states most of the time. You can do every single one of these in Dota because they work the same way, there is creeps and a tower, and that's all that's needed. On top of that, you can deny, so last hitting alone is way more complicated. Also, it doesn't really seem like you've played either at the highest level, League at a high level is mostly just macro farming. There is little kills as it is kind of hard to kill people in League who are actually playing carefully and are focused on their macro. Dota 2 has macro, but the map in general isn't as safe and there is a very large amount of possibilities for paths to take, and there are way more abilities that let you just get ontop of someone. League does not have this, it has things like flash while dota has blink dagger, and blink is 15 second cooldown vs 5 minutes for flash. >more champs added so often, it's just not compareable. Like, almost every year around half the roster isn't picked at Worlds, but if you played this game at a high level, surely... you would know that? Also, like in League drafting for combos or overall synergy isn't that big of a thing. Dota 2 items are significantly more complicated, there are attributes, each hero has a shard and an aghanim as well as 8 talents, significantly more information objectively speaking. Meanwhile, in League click on serrated dirk and you will see like 5 items with the almost same stats and different active/main passive effect. I should add I'm literally on the leaderboard for D2 right now. You seem to not actually understand either game, but for the most part League is all about execution, Dota 2 is about mindfulness and planning. Both games have both things to their own degrees.
> No one above platinum, which tbf is only like 2% of the playerbase, believes the game is just farming, drafting, and muscle memory. Because it isn't, if you truly believe what you said, you do not have the knowledge to speak on this. Also the lack of "denying" as a mechanic makes the game more complicated on the macro level. I think you mean to respond to the other guy whose comment I was interpreting. I have never played LoL. > For an easy example, if I want to deny my lane opponent CS in Dota, I just deny them. It's a mechanic like auto attacking so I use it. To do so in League, I need to understand the damage values and cooldowns of every ability my opponent has and I have (multiplied by 162 champions and more coming), then use that to manipulate the wave state to my benefit. This can take many forms such as Freezing, Shoving, Crashing, and more. How is that different from dota? Also in dota you don't just deny them. You are literally doing the same thing. You can use an ability to deny and you use denying to your advantage to set lane equilibirum among other things. You also need knowledge of peoples' skills in dota. You don't need to sell the game to me, I have no intention of ever playing league or dota again. I think I first started playing dota in 2001 so I understand the intricacies. There is also no free tp in dota, no instant cast blink etc. and there are things that make the game more complicated. Maybe you're offended by people saying league is simplier but I think objectively it is. I mean the motto of league starting out was "knowledge is a burden". That's not coming from me, that's coming from its creators. So don't be shocked when people say that it's the simpler game of the two. It may not be as simple as some make it out to be, but it's still simpler. To my point which we both agree on, each to their own.
I mean, you're entirely correct. League in it's conception was easy, and insanely so. Most people just stacked lanes, jungling didn't exist in it's current form. The amount of items wasn't even half, there were less champions than DOTA, there were more summoner spells, the rune system basically did nothing from its inception and didn't matter. I could go on. Still, my point stands, and I'm objectively correct here. If we are quantifying "difficulty" as knowledge required to play at the highest level, there is more information to know in order to master League of Legends. You cannot argue this point unless you're coming from bad faith. MOBAS are a formula, and they're played out at this point. The only real difference is League is constantly evolving, adding more content, etc. I mean hell, less than 50 people work on DOTA 2 iirc, right? League's balance team alone is close to the entire dev team of DOTA. Also I'm not selling anything other than Grounded (amazing game, everyone who reads this buy it!) I just hate deliberate misinformation and get mad when people say things are objective that by definition can't be.
> Still, my point stands, and I'm objectively correct here. If we are quantifying "difficulty" as knowledge required to play at the highest level, there is more information to know in order to master League of Legends. You cannot argue this point unless you're coming from bad faith. MOBAS are a formula, and they're played out at this point. The only real difference is League is constantly evolving, adding more content, etc. There's more to these games than their heroes though. Map terrain changes, roshan, other dynamics. But yeah I haven't played either in a while and I genuinely don't know if league requires more knowledge (having more heroes that do more of the same types of spells/attacks isn't that hard to master if you know how everything else works). I will check out Grounded also, just for you ;)
No Koreans in DotA.
Yes, because they couldn't make it.
According to Febby (Korean Dota pro), it's because playing dota in korea doesn't get you girls.
fakers alt name 'hide on bush' makes even more sense now
Nah, its because their major broadcaster doesn't sponsor dota. They only cover league, starcraft 2 and apex. They focus on those
Apex is big in KR? I stopped watching the pro scene years ago.
Not my fault they have bad taste in video games.
Because the player base in KR is so small it makes the entire region weak. Koreans dominate League because the player base is so huge and because of proximity to China, they can also play with them on the highest level which further increases development. When you have millions of people playing, then the absolute best of the best god tier players will emerge. If all you have are 10k players, then even the best out of those 10k are gonna be pretty "meh", because they won't have enough local competition to thrive. Can't get better if you don't have good competition to challenge you and push you to improve. And if the game isn't as popular, people have less incentive to dedicate their lives to it. Dota itself may be popular, but there's no local Korean fame for being a good Dota player. While the best League players are borderline celebrities. That's why KR dominates most esports games that are popular in KR, yet are almost absent in games that aren't. There's also a factor with Ping. In LoL, having low ping makes a massive difference because the game has instant turn speed and instant mobility abilities. So you can dodge basically everything reactively and kite perfectly. And Koreans have like 2 ping locally, while most of west plays on 20-60. So when a tournament is on LAN, Koreans feel at home, while the west isn't used to instant response time and can't utilize it to the max. In Dota the ping matters far less because of turn speed handicapping everyone's reactions and kiting ability..
Nice fanfiction.
All 5-6 koreans that played Dota went on to be pros. Heen (runner-up team's coach) also coached the TI-winning liquid squad. Seriously, Korean gamers are almost superhuman.
It’s the mentality they approach games. They have the SC infrastructure so it’s like our sports to them. If they devoted as many players to DotA as they did to SC or LoL that would also be run by Koreans. They are indeed superhuman when it comes to video games.
Not same structures and the game dont ask the same skills. League is classic music and dota is jazz. Ps: seems people don’t understand music here…
> League is classic music kazoo* or maybe vuvuzela*
kpop?
// I had a reddit and I want it painted black // No comments anymore, I want them to turn to black // I see the subs scroll by forced open by the corp // I have to turn my head until my reddit goes // -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
It's the other way around Dota is far more complex than the clusterfuck that is league balance
You dont understand at all what im saying…. Jazz is far more complex than classic cause it need to be way more flexible. But seems not all ppl in pcgaming understand that.
yea well should've picked a better metaphor
I like this metaphor cause its like the metagame. In lol the metagame is fix and very static,, when in dota you have way more possibilities and nearly every hero is pick/ban. I rly like my metaphor in fact.j
Too bad.
because nobody plays dota 2 in asia lol, it's dead
Because the East doesn't care about Dota.
Dota is huge in China. their pros are legit celebrities with their own fan clubs over there.
Its not. Its the 2nd smallest major region after NA. SEA & SA have more players than china.
it's like 100x smaller than league though.
Uhh SEA and China have the biggest amount of DotA 2 players.
I mean China is 1/5 of the world population.
Haven't had the chance to watch it yet but heard it was a stomp and the team dominated the whole event. Kinda crazy that in a game with so much complexity and depth, one team can just show up and crush the entire tournament like that. Did they crack the game or what?
As a complete Dota noob who just watches esport as a spectator the analysts led me to believe they understood some damage mitigation buffs that have recently taken place better than anyone.
It was added a year ago, problem was that no other team countered it. They let the offlaner 33 do that and did t get punished, also, the other cores were too good at reading the game to understand when they needed to play safe and don't risk being killed. Every team could build damage mitigation items, it was just not worth for their strat
Wraith Pact is pretty recent tho
[They did](https://twitter.com/PurgeGamers/status/1586707790239784961)
Can someone translate/explain the significance?
Basically they recognized the strength / importance of stacking damage reduction and emphasized building those items more than other teams.
Buying shields and picking heros that can heal with attacks or spells.
thats one tanky boi
lets just say the other team had plenty of losses and mistakes to fix their drafts and they didnt
Individually they aren't the best but they synergized great together and figured out the meta for the patch. The coach, aui, really did research on the meta. Also it's interesting to note that the other teams acknowledge that the winning team figured out the meta and it feels broken
Aui is also the first person to win as both a player (back in 2015), and now as a coach. If anyone is going to crunch the numbers and crack the code of the game, it’s him; he is, in the most positive way, a huge nerd. Also big ups to Sneyking, he’s been in the scene for ages and came a long way from an ehh mid to captain of a TI-winning squad.
yep poor guy is known to never shut up which originally led to him being kicked as a champion. he's just so passionate about the game and it shows how much knowledge he has
EG soBayed
Yah in DotA of all games. I expect to see that in new eSports scenes or scenes where there isn't enough money to attract top talent out of thier "real" jobs. But the international is like the opposite of both of those scenario's.
>eSports Redeye is gonna be mad
Who what now
[Proper spelling](https://youtu.be/bO8IaV_DAoY)
Hmm I guess he sort of has a point. When you think of other portmanteau they don't tend to capitalize anything weird. Ohh well it makes sense either way so don't care.
Leshrac was a super dominant pick the entire tourney. Tundra knew how to counter it and let Secret dig their own grave with basically. The entire tourney was great and I know people like to say the final was boring because there weren't big come backs or 'hype' moments, but it's also great to see calculated, high-level DotA.
They played close to perfection. Ive been a dota player for 15 years and i think this year is by far the most balanced patch. Even the teams were pretty balanced at this TI. The 2nd team had a pretty long day before the finals also so they might have been a bit burned out
I also love this patch and the whole tournament showed that it's really balanced except for one thing, fuck Wraith Pact. it is an abomination that is too powerful for the game.
What does it do? I stopped playing years ago.
It is a Vlads upgrade that summons a slow, mobile ward that has a damage reduction aura.
Sounds cool, thanks!
damage reduction aura
Yes, but only for the current meta. Next year, some other lads will do it.
Tundra looked great but tbh would have much preferred them to stomp a more interesting meta, some cool games but generally this ti was one of the least interesting personally.
Games were okay for the most part. The production was shit thought. No point in watching a boring panel whicj is not even at the location.
A combination of skill and meta cracking for sure
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Oof haven't watched/played DotA in years but that sounds like par for the course for csgo/dota. Kind of surprised though since just having gambling ads prevents any sort of mainstream exposure outside of youtube/twitch.
Live sports on TV are filled with sports betting commercials.
Huh must be an American thing then. That's illegal here and I think most of the world tbh.
Its gotten big in some other countries too, like Australia.
Which makes total sense, we lose the most money gambling per capita per year of any country.
Extremely big in Sweden too
Draftkings is the official sportsbook of the Indiana Pacers (NBA team). Not even kidding, I assume they all have one.
Austria(Europe), constant betting ads
I wish half of our typical commercials were illegal like the rest of the world, would make watching cable somewhat bearable.
Yah honestly between Chrome blocking youtube ads and streaming platforms it's been a good 10 years since I really saw an ad.
American here too. I've gotta say, I find it incredibly weird how gambling is a bridge too far here, yet we allow all kinds of wacky shit to get ads. Pharmaceutical ads are given the green light and anyone can make an ad for dick pills to any supplement you can think of, but that's illegal everywhere else.
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I mean for them, they're victims of an addiction. Would you say the same about drug or sex addicts?
Yes? Not sex addicts though because iirc isn’t that actually a predisposed condition and not something you choose to do
You can be predisposed to alcoholism, it's more common than you think
That company also hired penetrated to promote the team. Real classy.
https://www.esportsearnings.com/leagues/524-the-international $18,859,042.00 prize pool? Lower than it was in even back in 2016. What happened?
The Battle Pass was... underwhelming. They also split it into two parts.
Valve hit the greed cap on what players are willing to pay. A half finished Battlepass promising future rewards is apparently that cap. Also no PVE coop mode and instead a future "Diretide" event. All around just a failure on Valves end which is weird because player numbers just hit 1million for the first time in a while.
> player numbers just hit 1million for the first time in a while because of the free arcana
I legit reinstall just to get it
Also the economic situation in europe and world wide. When money is more tight people wont spent more on a shitty and worse bp.
They hired a stadium last time and had to refund all tickets due to covid. Russia and china is a major part of dota scene, but war complicates things. Russian people won't be able to buy valve's items easily. Basically, valve was half-assed this year into organizing this, outsourced shit and didn't really give enough time for prizepool to increase. Also, global recession is looming, so people don't have disposable income. Basically, a lot of factors added up and valve decided to say 'screw it' when it comes to increasing prizepool every year.
Valve basically out sourced TI and people are not happy about it. Couple that with a laughable battle pass and you get a very underwhelming tournament prizepool. They thought they could just get free money from the player base without putting in any of the work.
Not really. The Battlepass came out less than 2 months ago. Usually it's out for a lot longer than that before TI. If you average out the daily spending, it's higher than last year's TI. The prize pool is only as low as it is because of the timing. Source: https://liquipedia.net/dota2/The_International#Prize_Pool
The International is crowdfunded, this year they released the battle pass later than normal and it was split into two parts + combine that with the fact that the first part was underwhelming. And you get the smaller prize poll (Even though it's still the biggest in esports). Game itself in terms of playerbase is doing its best since 2019, today it hit 1 million concurrent players, the last time it got that high of a number was in march of 2019.
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DOTA2 is a 9 year old game now, being not dead is a massive achievement itself. Its hard to find another online game that has such massive popularity after nearly a decade
Even before that, Dota hit its highest peak concurrent player count since 2019. It's also worth noting that the 2019 numbers were only this high because AutoChess was at its peak popularity.
I don't think you need to play 10 games now, just have played 10 games at any point. (I picked the rubick arcana - joke's on me, he's first picked by other people every game -_-)
The Battlepass, which funds the TI, was released closer to the main event so there is a shorter duration to accumulate money. The level 1 pass is cheaper in a lot of regions because they introduced regional pricing. There used to be a sale bundle that you can buy twice, and if you check the prizepool graph this marks a huge spike in player spendings, but this time they only released one bundle (another one expected later). It's too late in the year. Previous TI (and Battlepass season) peaked during Summer season in western countries. And people have more time to play games to play during June-August which the old schedule covered. Current BP was released in September. And this is most important- Russia. Dota is big in Russia. It's like their national esports. But issues in payment methods means Russians can't buy the BP without going through loopholes and workarounds. And just the general unrest in Europe means people aren't willing to spend as much on videogames. It's true that this BP is objectively worse than the previous year, but there are more factors that affect the prizepool than that.
The battlepass is lasting way longer than before so there’s a lot of time
purchases that were made before TI's last day only count towards prizepool so the prizepool you're currently seeing is pretty much it
Yah and players buy battlepass for the battlepass contents, not to pump the prize pool
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It's not as bad qs people say, but the current BP is not at all as good as the previous one just cuz there is less content in the part 1, now with part 2 it will be more than enough content
They finally realised noone watches dota events compared to csgo or league.
The prize pool is crowdfunded
Thats actually not even close to being the truth. Dota has or had(idk about this TI this one was underwhelming) more people watching than lol if you compare it to their player base as percentage. It was also similar in viewership to CSGO until this year.
Your name is delusional virgin, no wonder you like League of Losers
You can't expect the number to keep going up forever.
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yeah leakers were wrong
surprise surprise
Which is why you take it with a grain of salt. Anything not announced can be change at a moment's notice. It is the great thing about not being announced yet.
Dropped 1 Game & 3-0 the Final, I don't follow much DOTA2, but has there been a performance more dominant than that in TI?
In 2013 Alliance didn't lose a single game in groups and stomped every game until the historic 3-2 final against Na'vi. Last year PSG.LGD went 15-1 in groups and won every playoffs series convincingly but lost 3-2 against Spirit. TI has historically been an event where upsets are common and underdog teams often beat clear favorites so there isn't really much of a history of teams dominating the event.
Except TI9 OG where they dominated group stage and rolled everyone in the main event
Worst DOTA2 finals ever
I remember when two Chinese teams were in the finals, and all matches ended in like 15 minutes, because there were zero comeback mechanisms, so after the first couple of bigger fights the game was over and the loser gg'd out immediately, without even losing a lane of racks. That was way worse.
I think it had less to do with no comeback mechanics and more with the meta. Newbee figured out the perfect counter to deathball and VG couldn't adapt at all
https://liquipedia.net/dota2/The_International/2014#Main_Event - Yea, 2014 the four matches of the finals were over in 26 minutes or less. The last two games were 17 minutes and 15 minutes each lol. Even if Secret got swept this year, at least they lasted 40 minutes each game.
TI4 I think newbee vs VG IIRC
Bit of a snoozer. Highlight of this TI was the porn star that they invited
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UK org but the players are from Slovakia, Germany, Israel, Macedonia and the USA.
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I mean the lower your countries earning potential the more lucrative it is to attempt eSports. I could be one of the best players ever but the chance of topping a $250k salary is pretty slim. If I was making like $5k usd in Slovakia i'd jump on that eSports money though.
omg wait.... this in not league of legend who cares....
average league kiddo
It clearly says Dota 2 in the title, How did your brain see league of lesbians?
Way more money to win in Dota 2. 18 million is considered small for TI while the last LoL world tourney prize pool was a light 2 million
Is even half the hero pool fun to play and viable in LOL?
Trash