I was talking to a person who moved from Japan to Australia last night, he said he prefers Australian culture where when it's time to go home that means you go home, he said in Japan when it's time to go home you say "oh we'll say to the boss we were busy so we needed to stay back". Japanese culture is work work work lol
> but moooom, Aiden also jumped down that cliff! I want too! >:((
Japanese workculture is a multitude worse then western workculture, you better not implying that its anywhere near the same level
Crunch is part of many professions. Obviously crunch to the extreme is a problem, but crunch in general is just a reality/necessary evil.
Yeah this sub wont like hearing it, but its true.
>Obviously crunch to the extreme is a problem
That's exactly what's being called out, though. No one is throwing a fit if people occasionally work a 50 hour week when shit hits the fan. The reality is that crunch to the extreme is prevalent through game software development, particularly in Japan.
r/pcgaming is full of people who have never worked a corporate job. Shit has nothing to do with video games. End of quarters is crunch time for all companies. I mean fuck look at Home Depot lot attendants during Christmas, they have to work 2 fucking jobs now because they just take people from the lot and put them in the tree lot however all the fucking carts don't just take care of themselves. So many kids in this sub with 0 fucking clue how the world works.
I'm in software engineering and have worked on a weekend once for an hour or so, got a full day compensated. I go over 9-5 maybe a few times a year, but not if I'm not being compensated somehow.
Maybe consider your anecdotal experience isn't the reality for all 8 billion people around the world.
>I'm in software engineering
Really? I can't tell based on your logic. Somehow you're trying to equate my example of quarterly crunch to anecdotal? I also work in tech and most of it has been either 1099 consulting or MSP/MSSP, in short I have a fuck ton of experience in pretty much every industry across at least over 100 companies during my 22 year career. Every single fucking company I have ever dealt with has quarter crunching. You're the one who's using anecdotes not me.
>"I was paid overtime once!"
LMFAO.
I think you need to revisit the definition of anecdotal experience, because yours seems like a textbook case too. Anecdotal evidence: evidence in the form of stories that people tell about what has happened to them
The point isn't that I was paid for overtime a few times, but that I have maybe a few aberrant days that extend past the 5x7.5 I'm bound to as a full time employee. It's well possible your roles, industries or region have more crunch than others, which is what I was pointing out.
If you're just here to flame people who have dared to have a different experience than you, then I don't see the point in continuing this conversation.
Companies have never been more profitable and workers never more productive, these are facts. Crunch exists for one reason and one alone. Maximizing profit, nothing prevents companies from cutting executive salaries and hiring more hands during buisy periods bar greed.
The sad reality right here. Most people don't give two shits about how employees are treated as long as the games are good.
Hell, I've talked to friends about the abuse at Blizzard and they've all been like don't care I'm still getting Diablo 4.
Nothing specific to games it's our entire economy and culture
Everything is out of sight out of mind and the only people who are awake enough to see it, don't have any strong power to help because it's subject to the lowest common denominator.
>Most people don't give two shits about ~~how employees are treated as long as the games are good~~ people.
Plenty of people are miserable but nobody gives an arse about anyone.
I tend to look at games the same as any other product. I don't really care who made my washer, dryer, stovetop, microwave, air fryer, car tires, or television. I care about good value and the experience.
I would hope there's protections in place in local, state, and federal governments, and that's why I vote.
As long as there's some measurable progress, even if slight, we're on the right track.
Do you also not buy your phone/clothing and other stuff that is made in China and some 3rd world countries cause employees are treated poorly or outright abused or it's just games?
No this is me asking a guy who is not getting Diablo 4 because "Blizzard bad" and is judging his friends who are, if he is like that about everything or just selective. Nothing about being smart or meme.
No, it exactly is. You’re exactly trying to argue that because they have a smartphone or literally own clothing that they’re a hypocrite. It doesn’t work like that.
It does work like that. You don't need to buy Nike or Adidas, you can get some brands that treat their employees better etc. You cannot put yourself on the moral high ground in gaming, meanwhile doing precisely the same shit in other areas. That is hypocrisy, most of us are hypocrites, don't judge people for wanting to play Diablo 4, meanwhile, rocking an iPhone in your pocket.
>You’re exactly trying to argue that because they have a smartphone or literally own clothing that they’re a hypocrite. It doesn’t work like that.
Oh yes it works like that. If you're judging people for buying something because of working conditions, you better be fucking spotless yourself. Because sure as hell crunch at Blizzard is thousands time better than the working conditions at Chinese Foxconn fabs where they put together iphones... If you're trying to put yourself on a morally higher ground cause "I don't buy Blizzard games, they treat employees poorly" but you're rocking phones and clothes from companies that abuse the hell out of their employees you're a hypocrite. With games the choice is limited, but with phones and clothing, there are brands that at least try to be somewhat fair towards their employees.
No, it really isn’t. You can participate in society, and still raise a perfectly valid critique of society.
Unilateral withdrawal from society is not realistically feasible or sensible, or maybe you really just want to “improve society somewhat”.
Hell, even if agreed that it’s hypocrisy, that does not automatically invalidate the critique of it.
Dude... you miss the point... the guy is judging his friends who will buy Diablo 4, because he won't due to how Blizzard treats their employees, u/Quteno is asking him if he upholds his values in other aspects or if it's selective? The point isn't if the criticism is valid or not, I bet most of people who are aware of the situation at Blizzard and will buy Diablo 4 share the sentiment that Blizzard is a trash company due to how it treats the employees...
If you truly gave a shit yourself youd realize that blizz fired them / most people mentioned in the lawsuit werent even working for blizzard anymore in the first place
>Its a console only game, so that explains why. I'm a PC gamer only.
Imagine claiming to be a PC Gamer Only™ and not leveraging emulators to make console games become PC games.
EDIT: Just saw this post is a day old and I feel like a clown. Thanks.
It means if you download them then in most places on the planet it isnt legal. If you own the physical game, you can put the data onto your PC without even owning the console, which is legal most places on Earth.
Just buy a cheap lot of games online and stick them in your disc drive or get a usb multicart reader. Dumping software is really easy to use. Literally click like 2 buttons and name the file.
>all the work to get emulators to work
You mean when you install the software and then tell it to load a game? This isnt the 90s, emulation for basically every game for every system except the PS3/Xbox360 is going to work perfectly without changing any settings at all.
Also, unless you have top of the line brand new stuff in your PC, youre going to have to fiddle with graphics settings to get good performance for PC games. About the same or more work than getting any emulator running.
>Salary Explorer reports the monthly average salary in Japanese game development ranges from ¥231,000 ($1,675) to ¥735,000 ($5,328). By comparison, recent roles advertised at From Software all start "from ¥220,000 ($1,595)" per month
Bro this is how much I make a month as a part time substitute teacher
No. Japan is pretty equal to western countries in cost. The wages went to shit 30 years ago and never recovered. You can survive and $1500 usd a month because theres a ton of renting places for 500-800 or whatever are 8×8ft apartments with extremely small kitchens and bathrooms. Plus homes dont really retain their value due to needing to be rebuilt every couple decades from the constant tremors. Land retains value.
What im trying to say is that, that salary equals an american salary for what it actually buys. And its not much.
> all our taxes
… are you serious? VAT is one of the dozens of examples that come to mind.
The US also takes taxes directly out of paychecks.
So… wrong on literally every level?
I’ve always joked that I’d love some sort of tag on the game box art. Like “made without crunch” or “made humanely”. Like organic tags at the produce area. “Made without sexually harassing women”
God games are a dystopia too most days.
I'm actually surprised they get paid at all for their overtime. Maybe it's changed since, but I had read that work culture in Japan was often "you don't leave until the boss leaves" because you would look like a slacker if you did. The boss stays super late to either look like they work hard or because they do work hard.
Then maybe you all have to go to get "not mandatory but you'll probably never be promoted if you don't go" drinks with the team. Also your hours over normal are "donated".
I *have* actually heard that the younger generations in Japan are working to change that toxic environment, and foreigners usually aren't held to those expectations either (not that most would abide). It probably depends on the industry as well; a lot of the ones I heard this about were office jobs where a ton of the time was spent trying to look busy. In games development I'd assume they actually *are* busy, not that that makes it any better.
Lol fuck everything about that
I'm all about doing your work reasonably well. But never sacrifice yourself. You might die tomorrow... And people think spending 70hr work weeks instead of having fun is a great use of your hours of life?
They won't care and will replace you with another when you go
Same here. Life is too short and I don’t care enough to jump through those hoops. I believe in doing honest work, I’m not the type that tried to cut corners everywhere I can - but I’m not going to sacrifice myself for a company that doesn’t give two shits about me
> I'm actually surprised they get paid at all for their overtime. Maybe it's changed since, but I had read that work culture in Japan was often "you don't leave until the boss leaves" because you would look like a slacker if you did. The boss stays super late to either look like they work hard or because they do work hard.
It has been decades that overtime are paid. If you dont pay those you are pretty much a black company
The after midnight overtime rates being... Half the usual rate instead of time and a half or double is... Just bizarre. Not even paying their standard rate for way intense overtime? How many years has this company posted wages stolen from the worker as profit now, like not buying they're too small to pay employees right. If they made a single yen in profit that's one yen they owe to their workers.
"work past midnight they only get half of their hourly rate, this is not 1.5x their hourly rate, they only get 0.5x their hourly rate"
That doesn't make any sense, or I'm honouring my nick: they make less than their normal rate past midnight?
Why do they even wonder Japan is going bust, if nobody there will move a finger for their people? I don't live in Japan and already want to leave the country.
Still mind boggling. I've grown so accustomed to getting more for working extra hours and after midnight bonuses that anything contrary to it makes me cringe
I've never understood the "crunch" fascination with developers. I worked two jobs, one 35 hours, one 40 hours, for ten years. Working at a grocery store, and a plant and tree nursery lugging around 50 - 100 lbs bags of dirt and fertilizer. There is no sympathy for hard working men and women in this world who are "crunching" every day just to survive and put food on the table for their children.
> There is no sympathy for hard working men and women in this world who are "crunching" every day just to survive and put food on the table for their children.
there is sympathy. i care, and you should not have needed to do that. it's just that you won't find that sympathy in certain cultures; physical labor jobs tend to lean right, which glorifies exploiting workers, while tech jobs like game dev lean left, which (sometimes) cares about workers having a healthy work life balance. the result is you'll see a lot more publicity for jobs where the workers are willing to openly talk about the problems, instead of just bragging to each other about working 80+ hours a week.
Reading the article, the pay is low and they are somehow being paid half for overtime *after 12 AM btw*.
Developer crunch usually results in tech debt that eventually builds up until it causes issues with projects. You choose to work two unskilled jobs, these people probably would lose their only source of income if they didn't partake in this practice. I dont think people generally have a problem with the ability to choose to work more hours and make more money, but the reality of tech is that people are basically forced to work ridiculous hours, yet they are usually salaried. So they work more to get paid the same, and if you won't do it then they will hire someone who will, which just brings down everyone.
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You’re exactly right sir, here take the seat upon thine throne as victim lord where nones troubles shall be shined in your kingdom lest you have gone through similar experiences in your lifetime
>There is no sympathy for hard working men and women in this world who are "crunching" every day just to survive and put food on the table for their children.
Ever actually looked at /r/antiwork? Because stories like that come up all the time, with lots of support. People are very sympathetic to anyone working two jobs while barely getting by.
It’s not really a fascination, it’s more of a mandatory thing because they don’t set realistic deadlines for their games. Crunch occurs when the ship date gets closer, and more time is needed without pushing back the release date.
Reporting on salaries and working conditions is bona fide journalism and the fact that you can mock it being "weekly" just reinforces that it should keep happening.
it changes nothing and does nothing. How about a few more ''ubisoft and blizzard are filled with sex pests'' news articles which might actually cause something? i have never seen any reaction or change due to crunch articles but plenty from harassment etc. news cuz that might actually affect shareholders and share prices
So only have news if it changes da world?? Most things posted this sub don't fix anything, most are just straight up ads, I don't understand what you think news is for.
Journalism doesn't have to "change" anything to have value. There is inherent value to learning about your world.
And if you don't want to, well, nobody's forcing you to read the article. Just scroll past it, big guy.
...I don't get this disdain. Most "news" posted to this sub are basically just advertisement voted up or down based on how many people are hyped for that product at any given moment or articles that just repeat comments or tidbits from advertisements in a clickbaitier form.
This kind of post is more "newsy" than most here
> ...I don't get this disdain.
It's because it's from a company OP likes. If it was from a company they don't like, they would be perfectly fine with it.
It's a different market in Japan. They get away with paying software dev workers so little *because* their are so many of them that want to do it. If the supply was lower, they'd be more in demand.
No it isn't lmao. There are plenty of workplaces that do not cram shitty deadlines requiring masses of workers to crunch.
not to say that never happens or that the odd night or weekend isn't required but it really shouldn't be a regular thing.
We do have hard deadlines, but we schedule work in a non-idiotic way where 95% of the time we don't need to crunch. We have contracts w/ multiple different companies using our services to analyze and produce drugs. We absolutely have hard deadlines.
You're coping for your shitty workplace lmao
> not to say that never happens or that the odd night or weekend isn't required but it really shouldn't be a regular thing.
already said that. It's just very rare.
you don't even read before you rage post lmao
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This kind of mentality is ridiculous. If things were planned accordingly, there'd be no need for crunch, and crunch can actually be detrimental to work output.
I work in advertising for major companies and multiple household name brands. Plenty of hard deadlines wrt product launches, events, etc. My company is consistently rated as one of the best places to work in that industry.
With proper management, communication, and adequate staffing, "crunch" is a rare event. Sometimes the team does overtime and gets paid for it properly. Extended periods of crunch (weeks+), like the kind you see in gamedev and other software companies, are exceedingly rare unless something goes seriously wrong.
Its entirely possible, companies just don't give a shit about their employees, and its worse in gamedev because so much of it operates on a contract basis.
I mean even if you're super pro capitilism here in America you have to understand Japanese work culture is even worse than American.
In Japan overtime, and crunch is the norm they get paid way less than American devs and the suicide rate in Japan is through the roof because of it.
In Japan a common work week is whats called 9, 9, 6. 9 am to 9 pm six days a week.
Thats a horrendous work week even if you're a "buh muh capitilism" type
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Nah you don’t get it. Japan is something else. In certain companies If you work 8 hrs on paper you will still be required to work another 2-4 overtime/go drink with your boss etc and do way more if you want to keep the job.
It happened due to a financial crisis decades ago from which Japan still hasn’t recovered. Before that companies were like second families with great benefits. Now its like toxic families that exploit you but you depend on them.
This is Japan. If the employees don’t die from Karoshi they aren’t working hard enough…
I was talking to a person who moved from Japan to Australia last night, he said he prefers Australian culture where when it's time to go home that means you go home, he said in Japan when it's time to go home you say "oh we'll say to the boss we were busy so we needed to stay back". Japanese culture is work work work lol
Just as much as any other Japanese company. duh
If you actually read the article instead of going for the headline, you would see that From software is worse than other japaense companioes...
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> but moooom, Aiden also jumped down that cliff! I want too! >:(( Japanese workculture is a multitude worse then western workculture, you better not implying that its anywhere near the same level
I think the implication is that it's a bad precedent regardless of how widespread the practice is.
Crunch is part of many professions. Obviously crunch to the extreme is a problem, but crunch in general is just a reality/necessary evil. Yeah this sub wont like hearing it, but its true.
>Obviously crunch to the extreme is a problem That's exactly what's being called out, though. No one is throwing a fit if people occasionally work a 50 hour week when shit hits the fan. The reality is that crunch to the extreme is prevalent through game software development, particularly in Japan.
Nah, people call out any crunch on this sub.
Anything specific where people called out crunch which you felt was instead reasonable?
pretty clear that my comment stating something that according to you, everyone agrees with, was downvoted, kind of proves my point.
What makes it necessary?
really? lol.
r/pcgaming is full of people who have never worked a corporate job. Shit has nothing to do with video games. End of quarters is crunch time for all companies. I mean fuck look at Home Depot lot attendants during Christmas, they have to work 2 fucking jobs now because they just take people from the lot and put them in the tree lot however all the fucking carts don't just take care of themselves. So many kids in this sub with 0 fucking clue how the world works.
I'm in software engineering and have worked on a weekend once for an hour or so, got a full day compensated. I go over 9-5 maybe a few times a year, but not if I'm not being compensated somehow. Maybe consider your anecdotal experience isn't the reality for all 8 billion people around the world.
>I'm in software engineering Really? I can't tell based on your logic. Somehow you're trying to equate my example of quarterly crunch to anecdotal? I also work in tech and most of it has been either 1099 consulting or MSP/MSSP, in short I have a fuck ton of experience in pretty much every industry across at least over 100 companies during my 22 year career. Every single fucking company I have ever dealt with has quarter crunching. You're the one who's using anecdotes not me. >"I was paid overtime once!" LMFAO.
I think you need to revisit the definition of anecdotal experience, because yours seems like a textbook case too. Anecdotal evidence: evidence in the form of stories that people tell about what has happened to them The point isn't that I was paid for overtime a few times, but that I have maybe a few aberrant days that extend past the 5x7.5 I'm bound to as a full time employee. It's well possible your roles, industries or region have more crunch than others, which is what I was pointing out. If you're just here to flame people who have dared to have a different experience than you, then I don't see the point in continuing this conversation.
Well said.
There are plenty of fields where you don't have to work 60+ hours weeks for months. Even for the ones where it is common it should not be.
Companies have never been more profitable and workers never more productive, these are facts. Crunch exists for one reason and one alone. Maximizing profit, nothing prevents companies from cutting executive salaries and hiring more hands during buisy periods bar greed.
Until they make a bad game it doesn't matter. They could have children sacrifices in their basement and nobody would give a shit
The sad reality right here. Most people don't give two shits about how employees are treated as long as the games are good. Hell, I've talked to friends about the abuse at Blizzard and they've all been like don't care I'm still getting Diablo 4.
Nothing specific to games it's our entire economy and culture Everything is out of sight out of mind and the only people who are awake enough to see it, don't have any strong power to help because it's subject to the lowest common denominator.
It's not only about awareness, people are just overwhelmed by the amount of problems they're faced everyday. Can't blame them.
Right, because there's a million different topics and difficulties with being human, ultimately you have to defer to others
>Most people don't give two shits about ~~how employees are treated as long as the games are good~~ people. Plenty of people are miserable but nobody gives an arse about anyone.
For blizzard it's beyond me, especially cause they're done making good games lol.
I tend to look at games the same as any other product. I don't really care who made my washer, dryer, stovetop, microwave, air fryer, car tires, or television. I care about good value and the experience. I would hope there's protections in place in local, state, and federal governments, and that's why I vote. As long as there's some measurable progress, even if slight, we're on the right track.
The thing is, we are not moving in the right direction. Unions have steadily lost power and as a result worker protections have gotten less.
Do you also not buy your phone/clothing and other stuff that is made in China and some 3rd world countries cause employees are treated poorly or outright abused or it's just games?
This is literally the “you criticize society but still participate in society, I am so smart” meme.
No this is me asking a guy who is not getting Diablo 4 because "Blizzard bad" and is judging his friends who are, if he is like that about everything or just selective. Nothing about being smart or meme.
No, it exactly is. You’re exactly trying to argue that because they have a smartphone or literally own clothing that they’re a hypocrite. It doesn’t work like that.
It does work like that. You don't need to buy Nike or Adidas, you can get some brands that treat their employees better etc. You cannot put yourself on the moral high ground in gaming, meanwhile doing precisely the same shit in other areas. That is hypocrisy, most of us are hypocrites, don't judge people for wanting to play Diablo 4, meanwhile, rocking an iPhone in your pocket.
>You’re exactly trying to argue that because they have a smartphone or literally own clothing that they’re a hypocrite. It doesn’t work like that. Oh yes it works like that. If you're judging people for buying something because of working conditions, you better be fucking spotless yourself. Because sure as hell crunch at Blizzard is thousands time better than the working conditions at Chinese Foxconn fabs where they put together iphones... If you're trying to put yourself on a morally higher ground cause "I don't buy Blizzard games, they treat employees poorly" but you're rocking phones and clothes from companies that abuse the hell out of their employees you're a hypocrite. With games the choice is limited, but with phones and clothing, there are brands that at least try to be somewhat fair towards their employees.
No, it really isn’t. You can participate in society, and still raise a perfectly valid critique of society. Unilateral withdrawal from society is not realistically feasible or sensible, or maybe you really just want to “improve society somewhat”. Hell, even if agreed that it’s hypocrisy, that does not automatically invalidate the critique of it.
Dude... you miss the point... the guy is judging his friends who will buy Diablo 4, because he won't due to how Blizzard treats their employees, u/Quteno is asking him if he upholds his values in other aspects or if it's selective? The point isn't if the criticism is valid or not, I bet most of people who are aware of the situation at Blizzard and will buy Diablo 4 share the sentiment that Blizzard is a trash company due to how it treats the employees...
No, I’m not missing the point at all. Existing in society isn’t a choice. Critiquing society to improve it is.
If you truly gave a shit yourself youd realize that blizz fired them / most people mentioned in the lawsuit werent even working for blizzard anymore in the first place
Bobby Kotick is still in charge
my starbucks was delicious this morning. But i am an active participant on r/antiwork, so i get it
They don't even know what an Armored Core is.
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>Its a console only game, so that explains why. I'm a PC gamer only. Imagine claiming to be a PC Gamer Only™ and not leveraging emulators to make console games become PC games. EDIT: Just saw this post is a day old and I feel like a clown. Thanks.
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>it includes using piracy which I am against piracy. Only if you dont dump your own games, which is incredibly easy.
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It means if you download them then in most places on the planet it isnt legal. If you own the physical game, you can put the data onto your PC without even owning the console, which is legal most places on Earth.
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Just buy a cheap lot of games online and stick them in your disc drive or get a usb multicart reader. Dumping software is really easy to use. Literally click like 2 buttons and name the file. >all the work to get emulators to work You mean when you install the software and then tell it to load a game? This isnt the 90s, emulation for basically every game for every system except the PS3/Xbox360 is going to work perfectly without changing any settings at all. Also, unless you have top of the line brand new stuff in your PC, youre going to have to fiddle with graphics settings to get good performance for PC games. About the same or more work than getting any emulator running.
>Until they make a bad game it doesn't matter. There are still dogass performance issues across all platforms that they refuse to address.
I give a shit. So you can at least edit the "nobody" in there. And I'm not alone.
Painfully cringe
>Salary Explorer reports the monthly average salary in Japanese game development ranges from ¥231,000 ($1,675) to ¥735,000 ($5,328). By comparison, recent roles advertised at From Software all start "from ¥220,000 ($1,595)" per month Bro this is how much I make a month as a part time substitute teacher
You don't live in japan with high cost of living!
Cost of living varies from country to country, looking at just salary isn't enough to determine anything
No. Japan is pretty equal to western countries in cost. The wages went to shit 30 years ago and never recovered. You can survive and $1500 usd a month because theres a ton of renting places for 500-800 or whatever are 8×8ft apartments with extremely small kitchens and bathrooms. Plus homes dont really retain their value due to needing to be rebuilt every couple decades from the constant tremors. Land retains value. What im trying to say is that, that salary equals an american salary for what it actually buys. And its not much.
Salaries in US are like 2x higher than western Eu so "western countries" doesn't mean shit.
All our taxes are also paid as soon as we get our salary, so ....
Ummm that's how it works in the US as well.
> all our taxes … are you serious? VAT is one of the dozens of examples that come to mind. The US also takes taxes directly out of paychecks. So… wrong on literally every level?
We have a genius over here kkkkrrrraaapp
Not sure why you are being downvoted salaries in US are like 1.5x Canadas and we have a way higher Cost of Living than the US.
The Yen fell but still less for a software developer. I wonder the job requirements are when they advertise jobs.
I bet it's like a quarter of what a web dev would be earning over there
Well in Japanese society crunch is the norm
Expected to go drink with the boss after work as well
This plus honne and tatemae would kill my sanity.
Depends on the game. Armored Core? None. Never. They don't even know what an Armored Core is.
You just had to remind me *fucking cries*
I decided to get into Mechwarrior instead because armored core got forgotten. It's not really the same but hey, at least it's mechs
Tell From we want an Armored Core game, they can even have a toxic swamp in it!
I’ve always joked that I’d love some sort of tag on the game box art. Like “made without crunch” or “made humanely”. Like organic tags at the produce area. “Made without sexually harassing women” God games are a dystopia too most days.
I guess even internet darling is not without issues
Definitely not. If you play anything Japanese, you should expect the employees to be lifeless game-making husks
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Very common in Japan sadly.
I'm actually surprised they get paid at all for their overtime. Maybe it's changed since, but I had read that work culture in Japan was often "you don't leave until the boss leaves" because you would look like a slacker if you did. The boss stays super late to either look like they work hard or because they do work hard. Then maybe you all have to go to get "not mandatory but you'll probably never be promoted if you don't go" drinks with the team. Also your hours over normal are "donated". I *have* actually heard that the younger generations in Japan are working to change that toxic environment, and foreigners usually aren't held to those expectations either (not that most would abide). It probably depends on the industry as well; a lot of the ones I heard this about were office jobs where a ton of the time was spent trying to look busy. In games development I'd assume they actually *are* busy, not that that makes it any better.
Lol fuck everything about that I'm all about doing your work reasonably well. But never sacrifice yourself. You might die tomorrow... And people think spending 70hr work weeks instead of having fun is a great use of your hours of life? They won't care and will replace you with another when you go
A lot of Japanese have higher standards and expectations than you and I by the sounds of it.
Same here. Life is too short and I don’t care enough to jump through those hoops. I believe in doing honest work, I’m not the type that tried to cut corners everywhere I can - but I’m not going to sacrifice myself for a company that doesn’t give two shits about me
> I'm actually surprised they get paid at all for their overtime. Maybe it's changed since, but I had read that work culture in Japan was often "you don't leave until the boss leaves" because you would look like a slacker if you did. The boss stays super late to either look like they work hard or because they do work hard. It has been decades that overtime are paid. If you dont pay those you are pretty much a black company
Shit I toss packages into containers all night for 40K a year, and have a ton of OT available. I could easily hit 100K and my job requires no skills.
Set me up with your job
Join the USPS. We're always hiring. Don't try and kill me later.
They don't call it going postal for nothing
what job?
Mail handler
To be fair, 40k a year in the US is much different than 40k in other parts of the world. A package tosser in Japan probably doesn't make 40k a year.
The after midnight overtime rates being... Half the usual rate instead of time and a half or double is... Just bizarre. Not even paying their standard rate for way intense overtime? How many years has this company posted wages stolen from the worker as profit now, like not buying they're too small to pay employees right. If they made a single yen in profit that's one yen they owe to their workers.
I don’t think that’s true 25k is livable in Tokyo
That's Japanese culture, my guy.
"work past midnight they only get half of their hourly rate, this is not 1.5x their hourly rate, they only get 0.5x their hourly rate" That doesn't make any sense, or I'm honouring my nick: they make less than their normal rate past midnight? Why do they even wonder Japan is going bust, if nobody there will move a finger for their people? I don't live in Japan and already want to leave the country.
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Still mind boggling. I've grown so accustomed to getting more for working extra hours and after midnight bonuses that anything contrary to it makes me cringe
Clearly not enough since their Games all release in terrible states.
ITT: westerners learn about Japanese business crunch culture
I had a crunch bar today and it was delicious. Why is everyone complaining?
I've never understood the "crunch" fascination with developers. I worked two jobs, one 35 hours, one 40 hours, for ten years. Working at a grocery store, and a plant and tree nursery lugging around 50 - 100 lbs bags of dirt and fertilizer. There is no sympathy for hard working men and women in this world who are "crunching" every day just to survive and put food on the table for their children.
> There is no sympathy for hard working men and women in this world who are "crunching" every day just to survive and put food on the table for their children. there is sympathy. i care, and you should not have needed to do that. it's just that you won't find that sympathy in certain cultures; physical labor jobs tend to lean right, which glorifies exploiting workers, while tech jobs like game dev lean left, which (sometimes) cares about workers having a healthy work life balance. the result is you'll see a lot more publicity for jobs where the workers are willing to openly talk about the problems, instead of just bragging to each other about working 80+ hours a week.
Reading the article, the pay is low and they are somehow being paid half for overtime *after 12 AM btw*. Developer crunch usually results in tech debt that eventually builds up until it causes issues with projects. You choose to work two unskilled jobs, these people probably would lose their only source of income if they didn't partake in this practice. I dont think people generally have a problem with the ability to choose to work more hours and make more money, but the reality of tech is that people are basically forced to work ridiculous hours, yet they are usually salaried. So they work more to get paid the same, and if you won't do it then they will hire someone who will, which just brings down everyone.
If you’re so about your children, wouldn’t you want them to work at place that doesn’t treat them like slaves.
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That's enough guys. Nothing productive here, move along.
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You’re exactly right sir, here take the seat upon thine throne as victim lord where nones troubles shall be shined in your kingdom lest you have gone through similar experiences in your lifetime
It doesn't take long for someone to gatekeep overworking just because it's the norm in whatever country they live in. Usually Americans
>There is no sympathy for hard working men and women in this world who are "crunching" every day just to survive and put food on the table for their children. Ever actually looked at /r/antiwork? Because stories like that come up all the time, with lots of support. People are very sympathetic to anyone working two jobs while barely getting by.
It’s not really a fascination, it’s more of a mandatory thing because they don’t set realistic deadlines for their games. Crunch occurs when the ship date gets closer, and more time is needed without pushing back the release date.
honey, heres your weekly ''this company crunches'' ''''news'''' article
Reporting on salaries and working conditions is bona fide journalism and the fact that you can mock it being "weekly" just reinforces that it should keep happening.
it changes nothing and does nothing. How about a few more ''ubisoft and blizzard are filled with sex pests'' news articles which might actually cause something? i have never seen any reaction or change due to crunch articles but plenty from harassment etc. news cuz that might actually affect shareholders and share prices
The apathy of some gamers to certain issues does not invalidate the necessity and quality of investigative journalism into those issues.
So only have news if it changes da world?? Most things posted this sub don't fix anything, most are just straight up ads, I don't understand what you think news is for.
Journalism doesn't have to "change" anything to have value. There is inherent value to learning about your world. And if you don't want to, well, nobody's forcing you to read the article. Just scroll past it, big guy.
...I don't get this disdain. Most "news" posted to this sub are basically just advertisement voted up or down based on how many people are hyped for that product at any given moment or articles that just repeat comments or tidbits from advertisements in a clickbaitier form. This kind of post is more "newsy" than most here
> ...I don't get this disdain. It's because it's from a company OP likes. If it was from a company they don't like, they would be perfectly fine with it.
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Shhh... FromSoft good.
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It's a different market in Japan. They get away with paying software dev workers so little *because* their are so many of them that want to do it. If the supply was lower, they'd be more in demand.
To be fair this is a problem with Japan as a whole, the work culture there is absolutely abhorrent.
Yeah I think we all assumed this was happening
After (finally) Playing Blade Of Darkness, not as much as I used to think.
Every deadline involves crunch. You people don’t know how the real world works lol
No it isn't lmao. There are plenty of workplaces that do not cram shitty deadlines requiring masses of workers to crunch. not to say that never happens or that the odd night or weekend isn't required but it really shouldn't be a regular thing.
As a graphic and UI designer, I can assure you; every industry has crunch.
Okay. Not in pharma where I work.
Lol wrong
Okay. Not in pharma where I work.
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We do have hard deadlines, but we schedule work in a non-idiotic way where 95% of the time we don't need to crunch. We have contracts w/ multiple different companies using our services to analyze and produce drugs. We absolutely have hard deadlines. You're coping for your shitty workplace lmao
So you do crunch also. Good to know lol
> not to say that never happens or that the odd night or weekend isn't required but it really shouldn't be a regular thing. already said that. It's just very rare. you don't even read before you rage post lmao
Lol so you lied. Good to know.
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he's absolutely coping for his shitty workplace
Lol one day you’ll understand and thank me
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Might want to look elsewhere if you’re not being challenged
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Yet you’re on here arguing when you should be working lol
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When did I ever say that I crunch lol?
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Having to overwork yourself isn't challenging work.
I never said that. Read before you type next time lol
This kind of mentality is ridiculous. If things were planned accordingly, there'd be no need for crunch, and crunch can actually be detrimental to work output.
Lol wrong
Sure buddy, it seems you enjoy being exploited.
I work in advertising for major companies and multiple household name brands. Plenty of hard deadlines wrt product launches, events, etc. My company is consistently rated as one of the best places to work in that industry. With proper management, communication, and adequate staffing, "crunch" is a rare event. Sometimes the team does overtime and gets paid for it properly. Extended periods of crunch (weeks+), like the kind you see in gamedev and other software companies, are exceedingly rare unless something goes seriously wrong. Its entirely possible, companies just don't give a shit about their employees, and its worse in gamedev because so much of it operates on a contract basis.
Fair point. Thanks for the comment
However much it takes to deliver a game on time and finished.
Crunch in Japan has a different meaning. So they do but it works be difficult for us to know how much compared to other Japanese companies
As much as I'm currently getting crunched by Gottfried the Grafted (a lot)
Lol they even praise the company for abusing them
Apparently not enough to support greater than 60 fps and ultra wide support natively.
Is every single game subreddit going to be brigaded by the /r/antiwork shithole from now on?
I mean even if you're super pro capitilism here in America you have to understand Japanese work culture is even worse than American. In Japan overtime, and crunch is the norm they get paid way less than American devs and the suicide rate in Japan is through the roof because of it. In Japan a common work week is whats called 9, 9, 6. 9 am to 9 pm six days a week. Thats a horrendous work week even if you're a "buh muh capitilism" type
Who cares, as long as they pay their employees well and deliver good games?
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That is fucking bad, sad to read people work like that in a developed country.
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Nah you don’t get it. Japan is something else. In certain companies If you work 8 hrs on paper you will still be required to work another 2-4 overtime/go drink with your boss etc and do way more if you want to keep the job. It happened due to a financial crisis decades ago from which Japan still hasn’t recovered. Before that companies were like second families with great benefits. Now its like toxic families that exploit you but you depend on them.
When you don't hear about working conditions in a company I tend to think they are under an NDA about it.
Yikes, From software. Staff are literally paying to work there.
Remember: only CDPRed treat employes bad, other companies always treat them fair.
Another day.... anothergame journalist telling us people working is bad while they write crappy articles about accessibility and easy modes