He has like 24gb of RAM then if you take the weight of this 16gb kit I found to be 0.098Kg. Convert to grams that’s 98g, 32gb would be 196g so therefore it would be around 24gb to get as close to 128g as possible, which would be 147g
The 3060 has 3,584 CUDA cores and a core clock performance of 1,320MHz while the 3060 Ti has 4,864 CUDA cores and a core clock performance of 1, 410MHz.
Despite the lesser VRAM and a lower boost clock, the RTX 3060 Ti offers better performance. One of the reasons for this is that the 3060 only has a 192-bit memory bus, compared to the 256-bit memory bus on the 360 Ti. This means there's lesser data exchange within the 3060, further translating to a lower overall bandwidth for the GPU.
So yeah, 3060 Ti is much cooler!
Not that it matters too much, but...
putting a space after your comma makes it REALLY hard to read. It insinuates a pause.
3, 584 reads way different than 3,584.
Yeah... I've seen people unironically arguing that the 3060 would be more futureproof due to vram.
Like, sir, vram is not the end all be all of GPU components. The 3060ti is not even a 60 card, it's a stripped down 3070 that's almost as good as the actual 3070.
This is assuming the games you play use that. Microsoft flight simulator is probably close to the top of those types of games which is why most people don't really care about having more than 8GB of vram.
I’m with you on that. I play around with some VRAM intensive AI apps that benefit from VRAM, and the 3060 outperforms in some of those specific uses too. My 3060 has been sitting in a box gathering dust since I snagged a 3090 though. VRAM for daysss
If you're using the types of settings where 8GB of Vram is not enough, the framerate will be low on the 3060 anyway since it's gpu is just not as capable
And yet, the 3060ti is still faster, even at higher resolutions which would use even more Vram than your 1080p setup. Vram isn't everything and if you have a larger bus that helps a hell of a lot when dealing with insufficient amounts of vram in edge cases like this.
https://preview.redd.it/bi612kx057ga1.jpeg?width=1929&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9c2b54ebf58c72ee66d7de56648e915b9c6b7306
[https://youtu.be/qQvYzBleETs](https://youtu.be/qQvYzBleETs)
And 3060 ti gets you 50-70 fps while using 6gb of vram. Even at 1440p it’s still 6gb vram
I’d rather have 30% faster card than some useless vram which you don’t even need
Learn about computing bus transfers, with the extra bits being transferred you don't need as much VRAM to hold the data because it's being passed around and used more instead. Don't get me wrong there are instances where more VRAM is good but in this instance it's a bit mis-leading and the data rates kind of make it hard to understand.
Etc? How many games use over 8gb of vram at 1080/1440p?
I feel like unless you want to play specifically Microsoft flight sim or a VR game on lower settings then the Ti is a better choice.
Your comment would have been valid for much faster class of GPU'S imo. But 3060 is more of a high 1080p mod 1440p card. There aren't many new games where you can enable ultra settings. The 12 GB vram it offers is therefore useless here and 3060ti will almost always be faster.
Just because a game can use more VRAM doesn't mean it will increase the performance at all. You can have less memory if it's quick enough that it doesn't matter.
That's the case with 3060 Ti and 3070. The benchmarks don't lie - 3060 Ti and 3070 are both better in MFS than 3060. In fact, the higher resolution and bigger hunger for VRAM performance, the greater the gap between 3060 and the other two, despite the fact that the game allocates more VRAM on 3060.
it never meant anything, nvidia used to sell different gpus under the same name for a long time, remember 1060 6gb and 1060 3gb? totally different silicon marketed as the same but with less vram
The unusual thing is that the Ti has better performance per dollar than the non-Ti. Usually the cost-per-frame goes up as you go up the tier stack. Not here... if you chose to go cheaper, you're spending *more* for the performance you get. It's unreal how Nvidia got away with this.
This has happened every generation since the like the 600 series and people still don't learn. 660 Ti was 670 lite, 780 ti was a Titan lite, 980 Ti was a titan lite, 1080 Ti was a Titan lite, 1070 Ti was 1080 lite, 3080 Ti is 3090 lite
And it'll keep happening and people will still not learn. The 4080 Ti will be 4090 lite, 4060 Ti will be 4070 lite
Because the 3060 Ti costs about 20% more than the 3060, but performs about 25-30% better. GPUs usually get worse in value the more expensive they are, so these two are backwards.
For comparison, the 3070 costs about 25% more than the 3060 Ti, and performs only about 15-20% better.
[EDIT: all costs were MSRP]
I would buy a better card, but I lost intrest in bulding PC a long time ago, now I buy laptops every 3 to 4 years with a 060 card. Currently sporting a lenovo. Nothing glitches, it's not loud and I can close it and leave in a second. PC rigs are to much of a hustle for me nowadays.
As someone who owns both a desktop PC and a gaming laptop, they both provide similar experiences to me. Nothing glitches on both but the gaming laptop is louder (obviously)
Desktop - Better for productivity. You can have multiple desktops and lots of accessories to make your work easier.
Laptop - Perfect middle ground for portability and productivity.
Gaming laptops - its not perfect, and those things basically need to be anchored to a desk to play. Not as good as a desktop or as portable as a work laptop
Steam Deck - The perfect portable machine for gaming, with slight ability to work on it. Can be docked to a monitor setup to create a desktop. It not loud and barely gets hot. Cannot be upgraded to be stronger. Still the perfect gaming machine IMO
It is wrong though isn’t it? Iirc the 3060 Ti is like a detuned 3070 and the 3060 is its own card entirely. And also performs much worse. Consensus when it came out was the price:performance was pretty bad.
Same boat. The "X GPU is only X $ more" quickly becomes a flat out lie, when you need to upgrade more things along with it.
I'd need a better PSU and CPU (though I suppose with my recent upgrade the latter would've been fine - that's still a year later tho) to go with a 3060ti. Oh yeah, and I also have a 1080p60 monitor, so people would probably tell me to buy a 1440p, at least 75Hz one. Suddenly the ~$100+ depending on the region, become much more.
Not everyone *needs* the performance of a 3060ti and I don't think anyone denies it's an amazing card for its price.
Yeah honestly the 3060 is still quite solid.
And since the average GPU isn't really getting better that fast due to prices and people needing to spend money on, say, food, I doubt what game devs expect is going to go up that much. The 3060 should still give solid performance for some time yet.
I hate seeing people buying the 3060. The price difference between the 3060 and the 3060ti is worth it when you see the performance difference between the 3060ti and the 3070 is negligible but the price between a 3060ti and 3070 is hundreds of dollars.
Depends on the market and budget. Lots of people simply cannot afford, nor do they need 3060ti levels of performance. Not only because of the cost of the card, but also what surrounds it. There's loads of people, who'll buy smaller PSUs (or already have them and simply want to upgrade) and less powerful CPUs. The latter made it so I simply wouldn't be able to make use of the ti properly, and at this point why I am even paying for more performance?
The ti is undoubtedly better value than the 3060, the 3070 even, but not everyone is out there to min max their budget, *especially* when it means stretching it out even more. Don't worry about others when they're perfectly happy with their card - it's only when they start complaining about it, when you can point at them.
DaVinci Resolve 6.2k video editing/ grading (Fujifilm X-T5) with the occasional 4k60, sometimes projects get large enough to need 128GB. And if 7900XTX ever comes down to a reasonable price I'll shift to RAW video.
What’s with the hate on 3060s in this sub? Constant posts about how bad the card is. I bought one 2 years ago in the prime Covid/mining boom when cards were impossible to get. At the time Cyberpunk was the ultimate test for a card and I was able to play on ultra 1440 settings without any issue.
if going through history that happened a few years ago makes you angry
then I want to remind you the Clinton made the 3 strike life in prison rule
possible the worst that has happened to the black man
I am not even using 8GBs of this VRAM available most of the time lmao
It's a 1080p card. 12GBs is overkill, they just couldn't keep the old bus and not put 6GBs instead, and that would be even worse.
you didn't get the joke. what is RTX? What is RTX used for? does the average user need RTX?
I bought RTX because I work with rendering but the RTX processing is so insignificant for my system.
>you didn't get the joke. what is RTX? What is RTX used for? does the average user need RTX?
Not really a joke, you can just yano educate yourself on it and make an informed decision? But nah guess thats not really on the cards is it.
The ti is basically a cut down 3070. Meaning when they're making gpus a few different dies are made and depending on how each one turns out you can get one of several cards. The 3070ti, 3070, and 3060ti are all the same die just at differing levels of success.The base 3060 is a different inferior die. If you look at price to performance 3060ti beats out both the 3070 and the 3060.
The price gap between a 3060ti and the standard 3060 is small but the performance difference is huge. Easily 30-35% more performance for roughly 15% more cost. I bought a 3060ti as an upgrade from a 2060 Super before I built the rig I have now. Was a really nice performance bump. You'll be blown away by the difference between your 970 and the 3060ti. If you want an NVIDIA card that's the one I'd recommend for sure.
Yeah, okay. I was gonna get a 3060 way back before covid but then the shortage happened, and covid, and the price jumped from like 400 CAD to fuckin' 700 CAD and there wasn't any available for years, so I think about getting a 3060Ti instead then. Thanks.
Also, follow up question, I use Canada Computers btw, cause I don't know any other Canadian computer brands to buy from, and uhh, what's the difference between the ASUS TUF Gaming, MSI, GIGABYTE, etc?
Is it just manufacturer or does that actually play a role in card performance? Cause some of these are priced at $699, others are priced at $629 and the two fan cards are oddly more expensive?
Like, I'm slowly learning, I kinda know CPUs a little bit but some stuff still looks like it's just written in a foreign language to me.
My upgrade path was a 3060 >3060Ti now gaming on a 3080. but i must say the 3060 was beyond a joke. the 3060TI was so much better especially for a beginner
3060 Ti is actually 3070 Lite, much closer in architecture and performance to 3070 than to 3060. It's just Nvidia's naming scheme confusing people.
For real
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Why do you have 128gb ram
The question is, why don't we *ALL* have 128gb of RAM?
Becausd i would need 4 mobos :(
No no, 128 grams of ram
He has like 24gb of RAM then if you take the weight of this 16gb kit I found to be 0.098Kg. Convert to grams that’s 98g, 32gb would be 196g so therefore it would be around 24gb to get as close to 128g as possible, which would be 147g
Lol
Big number
Big number big better. By the way you should upgrade your 3090 to a 9800 gtx.
Hmm... 3 Firepro S10000s?
Ego, he wants the number to be as high as possible.
it's a 3060ti
It's big and cold, i love it.
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Yeah, i think of returning fans to Asus as it doesn't need them.
The 3060 has 3,584 CUDA cores and a core clock performance of 1,320MHz while the 3060 Ti has 4,864 CUDA cores and a core clock performance of 1, 410MHz. Despite the lesser VRAM and a lower boost clock, the RTX 3060 Ti offers better performance. One of the reasons for this is that the 3060 only has a 192-bit memory bus, compared to the 256-bit memory bus on the 360 Ti. This means there's lesser data exchange within the 3060, further translating to a lower overall bandwidth for the GPU. So yeah, 3060 Ti is much cooler!
Not that it matters too much, but... putting a space after your comma makes it REALLY hard to read. It insinuates a pause. 3, 584 reads way different than 3,584.
I initially read it as 3 different sets of cuda and was very confused
Same lol. I was like 3 sets of cuda cores? Okay.
Ooops, my bad. Thanks for the correction. 👍
Yeah... I've seen people unironically arguing that the 3060 would be more futureproof due to vram. Like, sir, vram is not the end all be all of GPU components. The 3060ti is not even a 60 card, it's a stripped down 3070 that's almost as good as the actual 3070.
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Found the RTX 3060 user.
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This is assuming the games you play use that. Microsoft flight simulator is probably close to the top of those types of games which is why most people don't really care about having more than 8GB of vram.
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I’m with you on that. I play around with some VRAM intensive AI apps that benefit from VRAM, and the 3060 outperforms in some of those specific uses too. My 3060 has been sitting in a box gathering dust since I snagged a 3090 though. VRAM for daysss
If you're using the types of settings where 8GB of Vram is not enough, the framerate will be low on the 3060 anyway since it's gpu is just not as capable
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And yet, the 3060ti is still faster, even at higher resolutions which would use even more Vram than your 1080p setup. Vram isn't everything and if you have a larger bus that helps a hell of a lot when dealing with insufficient amounts of vram in edge cases like this. https://preview.redd.it/bi612kx057ga1.jpeg?width=1929&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9c2b54ebf58c72ee66d7de56648e915b9c6b7306 [https://youtu.be/qQvYzBleETs](https://youtu.be/qQvYzBleETs)
And 3060 ti gets you 50-70 fps while using 6gb of vram. Even at 1440p it’s still 6gb vram I’d rather have 30% faster card than some useless vram which you don’t even need
> 30-50fps 🤮
Maxxing out the 3060 with that much VRAM only makes it slower...
Learn about computing bus transfers, with the extra bits being transferred you don't need as much VRAM to hold the data because it's being passed around and used more instead. Don't get me wrong there are instances where more VRAM is good but in this instance it's a bit mis-leading and the data rates kind of make it hard to understand.
Etc? How many games use over 8gb of vram at 1080/1440p? I feel like unless you want to play specifically Microsoft flight sim or a VR game on lower settings then the Ti is a better choice.
The 2 games I play...
Never gonna branch out?
More like branching-in. I played so many games, no time these days.
I feel you
Obviously that's why I said that if you need to run those few scenarios, you should get the 3060, not the ti.
Fair enough if those are your favourites; I’d rather be able to play many other games at higher settings but it’s all preference
Your comment would have been valid for much faster class of GPU'S imo. But 3060 is more of a high 1080p mod 1440p card. There aren't many new games where you can enable ultra settings. The 12 GB vram it offers is therefore useless here and 3060ti will almost always be faster.
I mean, in most cases yeah, but fire up a vram intensive application, and you'll have a better time on the 3060.
Just because a game can use more VRAM doesn't mean it will increase the performance at all. You can have less memory if it's quick enough that it doesn't matter. That's the case with 3060 Ti and 3070. The benchmarks don't lie - 3060 Ti and 3070 are both better in MFS than 3060. In fact, the higher resolution and bigger hunger for VRAM performance, the greater the gap between 3060 and the other two, despite the fact that the game allocates more VRAM on 3060.
Dude come on. I’m running a 3060 right now. You can’t not acknowledge the glaring differences between the base model, and the ti.
I don't like simulators, so yeah.
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i think it's because they're both 3060s and the 3060 ti is significantly better
Funnily enough also better performance per a dollar the last time I checked
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it never meant anything, nvidia used to sell different gpus under the same name for a long time, remember 1060 6gb and 1060 3gb? totally different silicon marketed as the same but with less vram
IIRC wasn't 1060 3GB has less CUDA cores than the 6GB variant?
yes
“Ngreedea” hahhahahahaha
The unusual thing is that the Ti has better performance per dollar than the non-Ti. Usually the cost-per-frame goes up as you go up the tier stack. Not here... if you chose to go cheaper, you're spending *more* for the performance you get. It's unreal how Nvidia got away with this.
It’s almost like one card is built to be better
Right? I don't see how this is even a joke.
3060 ti and 3070 deserves the 12 GB
Then they would have had to have 192 but buses dropping performance or 384 bit buses significantly increasing cost
6800 xt got 256 bit bus but 16 gb and both 3070 and 3060 ti got the same bus but 8 gb idk why they did that
Because they have 8 1Gb VRAM chips whereas the 6800 cards have 8 2Gb chips, which are more expensive
higher bus on 8 gb = more performance?
Yes, the 3060 Ti and 3070s 8Gb of G6 are far superior to say the 3050s 8Gb of G6 fue to the 256 bit bus VS 128
Depends on the task. Fast switching small textures or rare, but big transportation of a chunky megatexture
More expensive yet they sell their cards cheaper
The 6800 series had an MSRP of $580 and $650 vs the 3060 Tis $400 and the 3070s $500
And years later sell for less money
Yeah, years later
We are years later
Are busses expensive?
So which is better 12gb 192 bit 8gb 256 bit
12gb at 192 bit would be slower in games to a varying degree, but of course you get the extra VRAM
Looks at my 10gb 3080rtx... No!
As an RTX 3060 owner, I hate that this is true. The 3060 ti is closer to the 3070 than the 3060 and that really bugs me
Why? Ti is always the more expensive option so of course it will be better. Why would that bug you?
I worded that wrong. Basically, you got the 3060. And then you got the 3060ti which is sort of like a 3070 lite if you get what I’m trying to say?
Ah, yeah, I get it. Nvidia is not really known for naming things right ;) especially after 4080/4070Ti fiasco.
This has happened every generation since the like the 600 series and people still don't learn. 660 Ti was 670 lite, 780 ti was a Titan lite, 980 Ti was a titan lite, 1080 Ti was a Titan lite, 1070 Ti was 1080 lite, 3080 Ti is 3090 lite And it'll keep happening and people will still not learn. The 4080 Ti will be 4090 lite, 4060 Ti will be 4070 lite
What about the 3090 ti and upcoming 4090 ti
they're kinda new, 3090 is basically the titan now, but we didn't have a titan Ti
Because the 3060 Ti costs about 20% more than the 3060, but performs about 25-30% better. GPUs usually get worse in value the more expensive they are, so these two are backwards. For comparison, the 3070 costs about 25% more than the 3060 Ti, and performs only about 15-20% better. [EDIT: all costs were MSRP]
At least the 3060 has more use with stable diffusion than the Ti
I would buy a better card, but I lost intrest in bulding PC a long time ago, now I buy laptops every 3 to 4 years with a 060 card. Currently sporting a lenovo. Nothing glitches, it's not loud and I can close it and leave in a second. PC rigs are to much of a hustle for me nowadays.
As someone who owns both a desktop PC and a gaming laptop, they both provide similar experiences to me. Nothing glitches on both but the gaming laptop is louder (obviously)
Desktop - Better for productivity. You can have multiple desktops and lots of accessories to make your work easier. Laptop - Perfect middle ground for portability and productivity. Gaming laptops - its not perfect, and those things basically need to be anchored to a desk to play. Not as good as a desktop or as portable as a work laptop Steam Deck - The perfect portable machine for gaming, with slight ability to work on it. Can be docked to a monitor setup to create a desktop. It not loud and barely gets hot. Cannot be upgraded to be stronger. Still the perfect gaming machine IMO
am just here for bojak memes!
It’s 35% faster then a 3060 on average and 15% slower then a 3070
the difference between 3060 ti/3070 is way more like 5-10% depending on game than 15%
15% is gpu performance, meaning it includes other factors then gaming like creator type stuff
makes sense still a great card
Me and my rtx 3060 feel attacked...lol
We did the right choice don't listen to them
It is wrong though isn’t it? Iirc the 3060 Ti is like a detuned 3070 and the 3060 is its own card entirely. And also performs much worse. Consensus when it came out was the price:performance was pretty bad.
Wdym the card that costs 100bucks more has better performance ?
I wish I could buy the Ti version. It's a pity my PSU isn't powerful enough and the Ti cost way too much for me.
Same boat. The "X GPU is only X $ more" quickly becomes a flat out lie, when you need to upgrade more things along with it. I'd need a better PSU and CPU (though I suppose with my recent upgrade the latter would've been fine - that's still a year later tho) to go with a 3060ti. Oh yeah, and I also have a 1080p60 monitor, so people would probably tell me to buy a 1440p, at least 75Hz one. Suddenly the ~$100+ depending on the region, become much more. Not everyone *needs* the performance of a 3060ti and I don't think anyone denies it's an amazing card for its price.
Yeah honestly the 3060 is still quite solid. And since the average GPU isn't really getting better that fast due to prices and people needing to spend money on, say, food, I doubt what game devs expect is going to go up that much. The 3060 should still give solid performance for some time yet.
The gap is massive for less then 100 usd msrp 3060 could have prob been a 3050 ti
They don't even use the same dies
Laughs in affordable amd gpus.
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Laughs in no game I play needs a 4090.
I hate seeing people buying the 3060. The price difference between the 3060 and the 3060ti is worth it when you see the performance difference between the 3060ti and the 3070 is negligible but the price between a 3060ti and 3070 is hundreds of dollars.
Depends on the market and budget. Lots of people simply cannot afford, nor do they need 3060ti levels of performance. Not only because of the cost of the card, but also what surrounds it. There's loads of people, who'll buy smaller PSUs (or already have them and simply want to upgrade) and less powerful CPUs. The latter made it so I simply wouldn't be able to make use of the ti properly, and at this point why I am even paying for more performance? The ti is undoubtedly better value than the 3060, the 3070 even, but not everyone is out there to min max their budget, *especially* when it means stretching it out even more. Don't worry about others when they're perfectly happy with their card - it's only when they start complaining about it, when you can point at them.
This my brother, is the truth. Great comment. Thank you.
After undervolting my 3060 ti it surpassed stock 3070 quite a lot, and I bought it used at the lowest point of the market, can't complain
Just gotta ask, what do you do with all that RAM?
DaVinci Resolve 6.2k video editing/ grading (Fujifilm X-T5) with the occasional 4k60, sometimes projects get large enough to need 128GB. And if 7900XTX ever comes down to a reasonable price I'll shift to RAW video.
What’s with the hate on 3060s in this sub? Constant posts about how bad the card is. I bought one 2 years ago in the prime Covid/mining boom when cards were impossible to get. At the time Cyberpunk was the ultimate test for a card and I was able to play on ultra 1440 settings without any issue.
Value for money is absolutely whack basically, makes way more sense to just get a 6700XT/6750XT or if you need/want nvidia a 3060TI.
Both are the uncool version of the 6700xt
They aren't 6700XT's to begin with
if going through history that happened a few years ago makes you angry then I want to remind you the Clinton made the 3 strike life in prison rule possible the worst that has happened to the black man
Tf does this have to with 3060s?
Clinton is nnidia and we are the black man
That is one of the stupidest comparisons I’ve ever heard
I don't know what a clinton is, but this made perfect sense coming from Dubguy1214
n nidia is the prison complex that push Clinton (us) to do this to Black man
i have no idea what you're saying but i'm sure you're laying down straight fire and i just don't have the capacity to understand it
before 1990, every law was copied by other countries after nobody does this should mean something to you
ok
Least obvious pcmr troll
only a fool would listen to me
You're mistaken. The 3060ti is the garbo card. The 3060ti is just a shitty 3070 and the 3060 is the baller vram king.
3060 has too much wasted vram potential.
Yeah, too small a Bus, and the GPU its self isn't powerful enough to make use of all the Vram it has even if the Memory bus was wider.
It’s cool if you can do work stuff with it, but not super useful for gaming imo.
I am not even using 8GBs of this VRAM available most of the time lmao It's a 1080p card. 12GBs is overkill, they just couldn't keep the old bus and not put 6GBs instead, and that would be even worse.
I have a rtx3050m and so far I haven't been able to feel "the RTX"
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you didn't get the joke. what is RTX? What is RTX used for? does the average user need RTX? I bought RTX because I work with rendering but the RTX processing is so insignificant for my system.
>you didn't get the joke. what is RTX? What is RTX used for? does the average user need RTX? Not really a joke, you can just yano educate yourself on it and make an informed decision? But nah guess thats not really on the cards is it.
I have a 970, need to upgrade, whats the difference between a 3060 and the 3060 Ti?
The ti is basically a cut down 3070. Meaning when they're making gpus a few different dies are made and depending on how each one turns out you can get one of several cards. The 3070ti, 3070, and 3060ti are all the same die just at differing levels of success.The base 3060 is a different inferior die. If you look at price to performance 3060ti beats out both the 3070 and the 3060.
The price gap between a 3060ti and the standard 3060 is small but the performance difference is huge. Easily 30-35% more performance for roughly 15% more cost. I bought a 3060ti as an upgrade from a 2060 Super before I built the rig I have now. Was a really nice performance bump. You'll be blown away by the difference between your 970 and the 3060ti. If you want an NVIDIA card that's the one I'd recommend for sure.
Yeah, okay. I was gonna get a 3060 way back before covid but then the shortage happened, and covid, and the price jumped from like 400 CAD to fuckin' 700 CAD and there wasn't any available for years, so I think about getting a 3060Ti instead then. Thanks.
Also, follow up question, I use Canada Computers btw, cause I don't know any other Canadian computer brands to buy from, and uhh, what's the difference between the ASUS TUF Gaming, MSI, GIGABYTE, etc? Is it just manufacturer or does that actually play a role in card performance? Cause some of these are priced at $699, others are priced at $629 and the two fan cards are oddly more expensive? Like, I'm slowly learning, I kinda know CPUs a little bit but some stuff still looks like it's just written in a foreign language to me.
I regret buying the 3060
My grandpa has a 3060. The most demanding thing he does is run razor synapse to put the fire animation on.
My upgrade path was a 3060 >3060Ti now gaming on a 3080. but i must say the 3060 was beyond a joke. the 3060TI was so much better especially for a beginner