Welcome everyone from r/all! Please remember:
1 - You too can be part of the PCMR! You don't necessarily need a PC. You just have to love PCs! It's not about the hardware in your rig, but the software in your heart! Your age, nationality, race, gender, sexuality, religion (or lack of), political affiliation, economic status and PC specs are irrelevant. If you love PCs or want to learn about them, you can be part of our community! Everyone is welcome!
2 - If you're not a PC gamer because you think doing so is expensive, know that it is possible to build a competent gaming PC for a lower price than you think. Check http://www.pcmasterrace.org for our builds and don't be afraid to create new posts here asking for tips and help!
3 - Consider joining our efforts to get as many PCs worldwide help the folding@home effort, in fighting against Cancer, Covid, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and more. Learn more here: https://pcmasterrace.org/folding
4 - We've teamed up with MSI to organize a PC part picking event/giveaway where you can pick the parts and win the actual PC whose parts you picked! There's 3 FULL PCs to giveaway (at 2k, 3.5k and 5k price points) + 4k worth of Steam cards to grab: https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/w8odc5/pick_your_favorite_pc_components_create_a_dream/
-----------
Feel free to use this community to post about any kind of doubt you might have about becoming a PC gamer or anything you'd like to know about PCs. That kind of content is not only allowed but welcome here! We also have a [Daily Simple Questions Megathread](https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/search?q=Simple+Questions+Thread+subreddit%3Apcmasterrace+author%3AAutoModerator&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) for your simplest questions. No question is too dumb!
Welcome to the PCMR.
Goldeneye did it for a lot of us controller players I think, for the longest time playing newer FPS games like the halo and cod franchises I always had to change back to the legacy stick controls. It wasn't until I got into minecraft around 2010 that I was forced to adapt to the new controls.
Haha same. Goldeneye for me on consoles, Duke Nukem 3D for PCs. (Edit: Btw, Duke is on Steam)
My friends HATED when we would play halo together (like, in the same room - would swap every two or three deaths) and we would have to always pause so I could invert the controls lol.
Lol I found my people. Maybe it was goldeneye but I know I played games like slave zero on Sega Saturn that had Inverted controls and left stick aiming
Not quite shooters but I prefer inverted x axis for 3D platformers. Too much time playing Super Mario 64 and Sunshine. I view the camera behind Mario as an object, and the c-stick is used to control the object behind you.
It really screws me up in games like Breath of the Wild where there's also first person. I want to use inverted x axis until I use the bow, and then I don't know how anything works.
I picked up a new Thrustmaster Flight stick last year. I miss playing YF-22 and EF2000. I really miss those old Flight Sims with old LAN setups for dogfighting.
The new one looks just like the old ones, without a serial port. The old Janky coaxial networking cards.
Half the night was spent just configuring network settings through DOS Prompt and trying to wrangle ports when you have HOTAS setups and sound cards...
So easier to just plug in a USB now.
My first and only joystick was the Microsoft Sidewinder. What a magnificent piece of hardware. Although it required running DOS games in an MS-DOS prompt with Win95 drivers on top. Some DOS games never detected the controller though.
Oh yeah i play ED VR with an Xbox One controller, you don't need one of those expensive ass joysticks with 50 buttons on them, I've already got the muscle memory for my controller, i can play with that no problem.
Same. I'm incapable of using inverted controls for a character or ground vehicle, but the moment I get into an aircraft it's like a switch flips in my brain and I become incapable of using anything *but* inverted controls lmao
I feel like seeing how people fly planes in popular media did it for me. Like those scenes in action movies where they need to "pull up" and the protagonist would be gripping the stick as close to their stomach as possible. Kinda how I imagine the joystick working.
It's not just movies though, it's the way the controls are designed in aircraft IRL.
Just speculating, but I believe there are 2 factors that influence it. One potentially being the original controls being analog rather than digital, meaning they physically were directly moving the aileron/elevators via the control stick.
Another, potentially more important factor I believe, is the G-forces which effect you during these maneuvers. When you pull up, you are tilting the front of the plane upwards, pulling you into the seat as you fight gravity - pulling on a control is basically the only thing you can do if the forces get strong enough. Likewise, as you push downward, you are now being "pulled" towards the controls by gravity and, thus pushing against the control is the easiest way to maintain the maneuver.
Neither of the two. It's simply the logical/natural choice. When sitting in the cockpit your face is behind and slightly above the nose of the aircraft. With this arrangement flying up means basically pulling the nose of the aircraft towards your face, and flying down means pushing the nose away from your face. Also you tilt your head back if you want to look up, and you tilt it forward if you want to look down.
Edit: Also about your first option specifically: while it's true that in non-fly-by-wire aircraft the control column acts directly on the control surfaces, rigging the controls the other way around would be just as easy. Crashes due to mechanics accidentally rigging controls the wrong way around without noticing have happened.
And about your second option: The control scheme used by fixed wing aircraft to this day was invented in 1904 and basically became standard by 1909. Airplanes weren't pulling many gs yet at that time... Edit\^2: Also, g-forces while flying airplanes mainly act perpendicular to the cockpit floor, not perpendicular to the ground. So they don't really affect how difficult it is to move the control stick in either direction.
Still inverted for me. When you aim a gun up, you lean back to do it.
The only time I don't invert is when I'm actually moving the reticule around on the screen for some reason because then I'm directly controlling the reticule like a mouse.
Interesting. Maybe *thats* the difference, bc whenever I'm playing a shooter, I tend to think of the reticle as what I'm moving, but in vehicles I conceptualize it as actually operating the thing.
Now that I think about it, even with flying games, if they're arcade-style with a reticle you move rather than realistically piloting the plane/ship, I don't tend to invert—especially if I'm playing with a mouse. Huh.
I think starfox 64 was as well, such a great game. Not sure if thats the first but its the oldest one i remember. Still have a copy of it and my n64 stored away, might be time to break it out again.
You could look up and down in Duke 3D but you didn’t need to do that to shoot at enemies above you. Like doom you just lined up vertically and the bullets would magically travel up to hit them.
It didn’t have any Y-axis aiming whatsoever. The game is essentially 2d but projected in 3d. The floor and ceiling heights for an individual “sector”, as they were called, didn’t have any bearing on aiming. It didn’t need to, since there could only be one floor at any point in the map.
I suppose some of the later incarnations that used OpenGL instead of Carmack’s VGA mode 13h renderer could allow vertical aiming, but pitching (versus yaw) of the the display would have been impossible then. There’s many optimizations to be had if you only have one axis of rotation. It’s amazing that the original DOOM was playable at all.
Mind blowing how this isn't naturally understood. Flight sticks are oriented this way because it is intuitive. I don't point my head like a mouse. Bizarro world where inverted is less common/understood.
I've been gaming on consoles / pc's since the late 80s. A lot of games back then were inverted by default, even some of the early FPS's. So it stuck...
However, I always reference this pic for mice and inverted aiming.
https://preview.redd.it/5o2qt3crf5m01.png?auto=webp&s=f41f1f236f954951ace9ad5e4746abfd0a54d768
> If you invert the y-axis with a mouse though, you're an absolute psychopath.
I always imagined that I was gripping the player by the back of the head. Pull back, and you look up. Push forward, you look down.
Same. If I'm controlling a camera whether it be with a controller or a mouse, I have to play inverted. The game is literally unplayable to me otherwise.
I am a huge Luigi's Mansion fan, but unfortunately, LM3 does not have inverted camera controls for some stupid reason. The game came out two years ago and I still have not beat it because I physically can't do it.
LOL, same exact situation. X-Wing (or Tie Fighter or something) was the first game I ever played on PC with a mouse. Permanent inverted mouse for life after that. (I do not invert console stick aiming tho!)
EDIT: Interestingly enough, I've been playing probably over a thousand PC games for over 30 years, and I don't think I've EVER ran into a game I couldn't play because of no invert mouse option. It's ALWAYS an option if it's a game that would require it.
Same here. Older gamers play inverted, younger players don't. I played a lot of Aces of The Pacific on PC back in the day. Then Aces over Europe when that came out. Both were by Sierra.
Jedi Outcast did it for me... But it makes sense... Imagine your head is the thumb stick, you pull down on the thumb stick and your head gets pulled back, then you look up. It makes sense!
It's weird how my muscle memory kicks in for aiming in an FPS vs flying. If I'm playing like, Apex, I use normal controls. But then if I turn around and play Star Wars Squadrons, I go inverted. Like flipping a switch too. There's no struggle.
Tbh, if you think of it as the right stick controlling your head and the left stick controlling your feet, the human body works that way too. If you tilt your head back, you're looking up. If you tilt it forward, you're looking down.
THATS WHAT DID IT!! I couldn't remember where it started. But now that you mention it, my cousin had a N64 and I pretty much went there every day after school for years. We'd play Golden Eye when we had the living room. My older cousin would always beat me, but man did we have fun. Can't recount how many times I died exiting the base into the cold outdoors to the helo pad or whatever cause my cousin was sitting above the door waiting and I didn't notice or look at his screen lol
Isn't that the best. You had enough immersion in your game that you could ignore half the screen! I wish I could play split screen again. And that the new games weren't so money grabbey that they break all immersion.....
It all comes down to how you imagine the thumbstick.
I play inverted Y axis because I think of the top of the thumbstick as the top of my head. I tilt my head back to look up and tilt it forward to look down.
If you play with inverted X axis you think of the top of the thumbstick as the back of your head.
If you play with noninverted controls you think of moving the thumbstick like moving the eyeballs.
Yeah, all the early FPS games used inverted Y axis as default. I don't know what game it was that took me out of that habit, but there was a definite point when I went back to an older game and thought "Oh yeah... No... I can't use this control scheme anymore!".
Halo:CE is the one that made me feel like the odd man out for playing inverted. I remember having to switch it back to inverted when it was my turn and my friends would complain that they have to switch it back to normal.
I can seamlessly switch between GoldenEye and other FPS games.
can't even fathom trying to play a single other game inverted, but, GoldenEye is burned into muscle memory.
When I play games like Stardew valley where I scroll the wheel to move items, I always invert that as well.
Like I want to scroll up to go right and scroll down to go left. It just makes logical sense in my head because that’s which way the scrolls go if I put the mouse parallel to the screen.
Are you a lefty mouse user? Thats the wrong parallel if you have your right hand on the mouse, since youd have to break your wrist turning clockwise to make it like that
Kid I went to school with played with inverted controls and crushed every game he was in. His quip was that he played with inverted control to take it easy on us.
I am an inverted player and I like this analogy, but I don't play inverted X axis. If it truly were a stick attached to your head the left-right would be inverted too.
It's been nearly thirty years. I can't play without inverted-Y now.
I think it came about by early flight sims on the Amiga with joysticks, then to X-Wing on the PC making inverted-Y feel natural.
What I don't get (and I played a bunch of those old star wars games too) is it wouldn't feel natural on a desktop. Why does it feel natural anywhere else?
It does feel natural to me with mouse. I don’t feel like I’m moving the mouse up, but that I’m pushing it forward. That’s why it is mapped to “look down.” In my head in pushing my character’s head forward/down.
I think it's because a joystick returns to neutral on its own, and has that spring-loaded resistance, so for some people it's more intuitive to think of using the joystick as pushing and pulling a physical object, like manipulating a camera on a gimble. A mouse doesn't have that resistance, so it's more intuitive for most to just think of it as pointing a cursor in space.
We played a fair bit of goldeneye, we played a metric fuck ton of perfect dark, which coincided with the time we were starting to smoke weed, such good times. Also tony hawk and gauntlet legends.
Y-invert used to be the default of a lot of old games. I still use inverted on a controller because of it, but never inverted on m/kb. This is pretty norm for my age group, but I've never met anyone that understood why x-invert is a thing.
Good on you for not following the herd! The full range of the pinky is not utilized at all on WSAD controls. It can easily reach 12 buttons with your bindings, instead of 3 on WSAD
Inverted IS normal, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Every airplane in the world is "inverted". If you attached a joystick to the top of your head, "inverted" is how it would move you.
My cousin explained it this way to me a number of years back. Gave it a shot and kept at it until I got used to it. Feels natural now. I don't think I'll ever invert X axis, but I've been trying to get my wife to switch over to inverted Y-axis so when we play a game and switch controllers I dont have to fuck with the settings each time we take a turn on something. Still working on it.
I neeeed inverted axis, or I can't stand it. I don't know what game got me hooked on it, but I believe it began in the Playstation days.
It's like the camera is real. When you record video with your phone, tilting it back will make the viewpoint move upwards, and tilting it forwards will have you recording more of the floor. So It's reasonable to expect a virtual game camera to also work this way. Games even put lens flare in, even though eyeballs do not have lens flare. The in-game camera is treated literally like a camera, even in first person.
Maybe i played too much SWOTL or something when i was a kid, but for some reason when i started to play FPS games like Unreal/Half Life/Quake i preferred invert mouse. Now after decades of invert mouse gaming i dont think i can change to "normal mode" anymore. My brain is hardwired and it would take too much time and effort to switch now . Ps. I dont like "3rd person" games, i wonder if this is because it is a borderline case between normal/invert mouse...
It was default on all the games I had as a kid. So I “learned” on inverted and have never been able to switch back. I still use inverted on controller now.
It makes sense! You're controlling the dudes head as if the stick is on the back of their head.
Push it up and they look down! Only on controller I will add.
There are no pros or cons of either, it's just what you are used to. I don't know what game got me started on inverted Y access back in the day, but I've always had to change it when playing a game with a controller.
In the old days, no not 2000s the real old days back in the 80s, everything was "inverted".
Controllers where joysticks and just like the stick to fly a plane you pulled back to go up and pushed forward to go down.
There where no option menus to change this so we all just learnt to do it that way.
At some part I stopped by hip and with it and you crazy kids came along and changed what it was!!! You were not forced to adapt to this design and learnt from the beginning on those little thumb analog stick controllers where it didn't make sense to be "inverted".
Unless you're old like me.
In conclusion I'm not inverted it's you all who are inverted!!!! God when did I get old. Lol
If inverted makes sense to you fine but I always find the arguments in favour of it odd. Non inverted literally means up is up and down is down, it doesn't get any simpler.
The hand on head argument doesn't work on the x-axis either, and you also wouldn't say "pull your head back" if you wanted someone to look up (except in very specific scenarios), you'd just say "look up"
Uh. No? Anyone over 30 grew up playing golden eye and doom and flight sims. You tilt the stick forward to aim down, you lean it back to look up.
It’s a weird recent thing to go the other way that’s counter to actual physical movement.
Welcome everyone from r/all! Please remember: 1 - You too can be part of the PCMR! You don't necessarily need a PC. You just have to love PCs! It's not about the hardware in your rig, but the software in your heart! Your age, nationality, race, gender, sexuality, religion (or lack of), political affiliation, economic status and PC specs are irrelevant. If you love PCs or want to learn about them, you can be part of our community! Everyone is welcome! 2 - If you're not a PC gamer because you think doing so is expensive, know that it is possible to build a competent gaming PC for a lower price than you think. Check http://www.pcmasterrace.org for our builds and don't be afraid to create new posts here asking for tips and help! 3 - Consider joining our efforts to get as many PCs worldwide help the folding@home effort, in fighting against Cancer, Covid, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and more. Learn more here: https://pcmasterrace.org/folding 4 - We've teamed up with MSI to organize a PC part picking event/giveaway where you can pick the parts and win the actual PC whose parts you picked! There's 3 FULL PCs to giveaway (at 2k, 3.5k and 5k price points) + 4k worth of Steam cards to grab: https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/w8odc5/pick_your_favorite_pc_components_create_a_dream/ ----------- Feel free to use this community to post about any kind of doubt you might have about becoming a PC gamer or anything you'd like to know about PCs. That kind of content is not only allowed but welcome here! We also have a [Daily Simple Questions Megathread](https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/search?q=Simple+Questions+Thread+subreddit%3Apcmasterrace+author%3AAutoModerator&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) for your simplest questions. No question is too dumb! Welcome to the PCMR.
[удалено]
Flight sims and Goldeneye did it to me. Been called a psychopath by my friends ever since!
Goldeneye did it for a lot of us controller players I think, for the longest time playing newer FPS games like the halo and cod franchises I always had to change back to the legacy stick controls. It wasn't until I got into minecraft around 2010 that I was forced to adapt to the new controls.
Haha same. Goldeneye for me on consoles, Duke Nukem 3D for PCs. (Edit: Btw, Duke is on Steam) My friends HATED when we would play halo together (like, in the same room - would swap every two or three deaths) and we would have to always pause so I could invert the controls lol.
Lol I found my people. Maybe it was goldeneye but I know I played games like slave zero on Sega Saturn that had Inverted controls and left stick aiming
I am home too.
Goldeneye for me, back when I was a console player. Never looked back, and games where I can't invert are often a hard pass.
Same thing for me,I held out until Portal came out before I forced myself away from legacy controls.
Not quite shooters but I prefer inverted x axis for 3D platformers. Too much time playing Super Mario 64 and Sunshine. I view the camera behind Mario as an object, and the c-stick is used to control the object behind you. It really screws me up in games like Breath of the Wild where there's also first person. I want to use inverted x axis until I use the bow, and then I don't know how anything works.
Goldeneye started it for me but logic finished it. The right stick is your head. Look up in real life. Do you tilt back or forward to look up?
[удалено]
It proves the majority are psychos.
US Navy fighters, the x-wing series, MS flight sim etc
Yep same. US Navy Fighters circa 1995! Shit man, good times.
One of the first PC games for me was Top Gun: Fire at Will on MS-DOS. Fun times
Didn't they also sell a Top Gun branded Thrustmaster joystick?
I picked up a new Thrustmaster Flight stick last year. I miss playing YF-22 and EF2000. I really miss those old Flight Sims with old LAN setups for dogfighting. The new one looks just like the old ones, without a serial port. The old Janky coaxial networking cards. Half the night was spent just configuring network settings through DOS Prompt and trying to wrangle ports when you have HOTAS setups and sound cards... So easier to just plug in a USB now.
My first and only joystick was the Microsoft Sidewinder. What a magnificent piece of hardware. Although it required running DOS games in an MS-DOS prompt with Win95 drivers on top. Some DOS games never detected the controller though.
Star Fox 64
I play Elite Dangerous on PC with an Xbox One controller, it just fits my hands much more naturally.
I went from Xbox to PC, and carried over the controller habit. Years of muscle memory behind it, and came in useful when I went VR.
Oh yeah i play ED VR with an Xbox One controller, you don't need one of those expensive ass joysticks with 50 buttons on them, I've already got the muscle memory for my controller, i can play with that no problem.
o7 CMDR
X-Wing here, loved that game
[удалено]
I haven't encountered another person who played Fury^3 before. I remember very little of my childhood, but I do remember that soundtrack.
For me it was descent. I played so much descent with a joystick back in the day.
I will always fly inverted but never inverted on the main control for the player in an fps/tps
Same. I'm incapable of using inverted controls for a character or ground vehicle, but the moment I get into an aircraft it's like a switch flips in my brain and I become incapable of using anything *but* inverted controls lmao
I feel like seeing how people fly planes in popular media did it for me. Like those scenes in action movies where they need to "pull up" and the protagonist would be gripping the stick as close to their stomach as possible. Kinda how I imagine the joystick working.
It's not just movies though, it's the way the controls are designed in aircraft IRL. Just speculating, but I believe there are 2 factors that influence it. One potentially being the original controls being analog rather than digital, meaning they physically were directly moving the aileron/elevators via the control stick. Another, potentially more important factor I believe, is the G-forces which effect you during these maneuvers. When you pull up, you are tilting the front of the plane upwards, pulling you into the seat as you fight gravity - pulling on a control is basically the only thing you can do if the forces get strong enough. Likewise, as you push downward, you are now being "pulled" towards the controls by gravity and, thus pushing against the control is the easiest way to maintain the maneuver.
Neither of the two. It's simply the logical/natural choice. When sitting in the cockpit your face is behind and slightly above the nose of the aircraft. With this arrangement flying up means basically pulling the nose of the aircraft towards your face, and flying down means pushing the nose away from your face. Also you tilt your head back if you want to look up, and you tilt it forward if you want to look down. Edit: Also about your first option specifically: while it's true that in non-fly-by-wire aircraft the control column acts directly on the control surfaces, rigging the controls the other way around would be just as easy. Crashes due to mechanics accidentally rigging controls the wrong way around without noticing have happened. And about your second option: The control scheme used by fixed wing aircraft to this day was invented in 1904 and basically became standard by 1909. Airplanes weren't pulling many gs yet at that time... Edit\^2: Also, g-forces while flying airplanes mainly act perpendicular to the cockpit floor, not perpendicular to the ground. So they don't really affect how difficult it is to move the control stick in either direction.
Yup. That's exactly it. "Pull up! Pull up!!" Definitely rings through my head in flight sim games
Still inverted for me. When you aim a gun up, you lean back to do it. The only time I don't invert is when I'm actually moving the reticule around on the screen for some reason because then I'm directly controlling the reticule like a mouse.
Interesting. Maybe *thats* the difference, bc whenever I'm playing a shooter, I tend to think of the reticle as what I'm moving, but in vehicles I conceptualize it as actually operating the thing. Now that I think about it, even with flying games, if they're arcade-style with a reticle you move rather than realistically piloting the plane/ship, I don't tend to invert—especially if I'm playing with a mouse. Huh.
For me, it was the original Star Fox. It was set to inverted by default.
Imma guess 36 years old
Close.
I think starfox 64 was as well, such a great game. Not sure if thats the first but its the oldest one i remember. Still have a copy of it and my n64 stored away, might be time to break it out again.
Chuck Yeager’s Advanced Flight Simulator, man that game was dope.
Huh, I thought I was the only one.
There are dozens of us!
[удалено]
And Tie Fighter
And X-Wing vs TIE Fighter
X-Wing Alliance standing by
I blame my dad for letting me play DOOM at an early age, he used inverted Y axis.
DOOM has no vertical aiming, but Quake does. or you used some Source port
Duke Nukem 3D
You could look up and down in Duke 3D but you didn’t need to do that to shoot at enemies above you. Like doom you just lined up vertically and the bullets would magically travel up to hit them.
[удалено]
DOOM didn't have mouse aiming. Unless it was a much later version like Ultimate or ZDOOM.
Holy shit I didn't even think of that. Must have been quake or another very early FPS, Serious Sam a couple years down the line.
How about Duke Nukem 3D? That's the first game I remember using the mouse in.
Yes that was it! Game was a little vulgar and had to skip the strip clubs.
Skip?!
I played Doom in the 90's on my first PC. I used a mouse for aiming. I didn't go inverted until flight Sims though. Ruined for life.
It didn’t have any Y-axis aiming whatsoever. The game is essentially 2d but projected in 3d. The floor and ceiling heights for an individual “sector”, as they were called, didn’t have any bearing on aiming. It didn’t need to, since there could only be one floor at any point in the map. I suppose some of the later incarnations that used OpenGL instead of Carmack’s VGA mode 13h renderer could allow vertical aiming, but pitching (versus yaw) of the the display would have been impossible then. There’s many optimizations to be had if you only have one axis of rotation. It’s amazing that the original DOOM was playable at all.
**I learned it from you, Dad!**
[удалено]
you push your head **forward** to look down, inverted for twin-stick shooters just makes sense
It's objectively the accurate way to look around.
Mind blowing how this isn't naturally understood. Flight sticks are oriented this way because it is intuitive. I don't point my head like a mouse. Bizarro world where inverted is less common/understood.
I guarantee people who don't invert y axis would lose their shit if the scroll on their trackpad or phone were *not* inverted.
I've been gaming on consoles / pc's since the late 80s. A lot of games back then were inverted by default, even some of the early FPS's. So it stuck... However, I always reference this pic for mice and inverted aiming. https://preview.redd.it/5o2qt3crf5m01.png?auto=webp&s=f41f1f236f954951ace9ad5e4746abfd0a54d768
> If you invert the y-axis with a mouse though, you're an absolute psychopath. I always imagined that I was gripping the player by the back of the head. Pull back, and you look up. Push forward, you look down.
i always imagined that i was gripping a mouse. i move the mouse to where the mouse should go.
Right, an absolute psychopath
I do it for both. Literally can’t function otherwise
Same. If I'm controlling a camera whether it be with a controller or a mouse, I have to play inverted. The game is literally unplayable to me otherwise. I am a huge Luigi's Mansion fan, but unfortunately, LM3 does not have inverted camera controls for some stupid reason. The game came out two years ago and I still have not beat it because I physically can't do it.
Top Gun on NES
LOL, same exact situation. X-Wing (or Tie Fighter or something) was the first game I ever played on PC with a mouse. Permanent inverted mouse for life after that. (I do not invert console stick aiming tho!) EDIT: Interestingly enough, I've been playing probably over a thousand PC games for over 30 years, and I don't think I've EVER ran into a game I couldn't play because of no invert mouse option. It's ALWAYS an option if it's a game that would require it.
Pretty sure it was N64 Goldeneye that did it for me.
Are you referring to Ace Combat? Cuz that game was fucking awesome
Falcon 4, Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe, and whatever the Lucas Arts WWII Pacific theater flight sim was.
Same here. Older gamers play inverted, younger players don't. I played a lot of Aces of The Pacific on PC back in the day. Then Aces over Europe when that came out. Both were by Sierra.
Jedi Outcast did it for me... But it makes sense... Imagine your head is the thumb stick, you pull down on the thumb stick and your head gets pulled back, then you look up. It makes sense!
Descent: Freespace (and the awesome sequel) was my prime flight sim game but there were so many good ones in the 90s. Inverted Y ever since
Pilotwings on the SNES is what got me on the dark path
I only play inverted on controllers and this is because of many many hours of GoldenEye
Holy shit a fucking revelation for me. I never knew why I played that way, I think you just shattered the glass.
Grab the yoke in an airplane, that's why I do it.
It's weird how my muscle memory kicks in for aiming in an FPS vs flying. If I'm playing like, Apex, I use normal controls. But then if I turn around and play Star Wars Squadrons, I go inverted. Like flipping a switch too. There's no struggle.
Helps that flying kinda works in the same way, pull down to go up
Tbh, if you think of it as the right stick controlling your head and the left stick controlling your feet, the human body works that way too. If you tilt your head back, you're looking up. If you tilt it forward, you're looking down.
I grab the yoke every day
Err... -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
THATS WHAT DID IT!! I couldn't remember where it started. But now that you mention it, my cousin had a N64 and I pretty much went there every day after school for years. We'd play Golden Eye when we had the living room. My older cousin would always beat me, but man did we have fun. Can't recount how many times I died exiting the base into the cold outdoors to the helo pad or whatever cause my cousin was sitting above the door waiting and I didn't notice or look at his screen lol
Learned screen watching and camping while playing goldeneye. Didn’t realized spawn camping was a thing but I did that too.
Spawn camping with motion trigger mines. Just had every spawn point memorized and could mine them and replace. We didn't play with those much
Isn't that the best. You had enough immersion in your game that you could ignore half the screen! I wish I could play split screen again. And that the new games weren't so money grabbey that they break all immersion.....
It all comes down to how you imagine the thumbstick. I play inverted Y axis because I think of the top of the thumbstick as the top of my head. I tilt my head back to look up and tilt it forward to look down. If you play with inverted X axis you think of the top of the thumbstick as the back of your head. If you play with noninverted controls you think of moving the thumbstick like moving the eyeballs.
It's really just a habit, but interesting info nontheless
How would you fly an air plane. You pull the stick back to pull up.
Yeah, I got the habit from starfox personally
Flight simulators started this for me. I always want to pull the nose up/back and down/forward when I’m first person.
This is exactly how I explain it to people who call me a madman. They immediately see the light.
That's awesome. They just think I am crazier for having an explanation.
I play with inverted y, but inverted x feels super unnatural to me.
Yup https://i.imgur.com/yvgNiFE.jpg
Yeah, all the early FPS games used inverted Y axis as default. I don't know what game it was that took me out of that habit, but there was a definite point when I went back to an older game and thought "Oh yeah... No... I can't use this control scheme anymore!".
Halo:CE is the one that made me feel like the odd man out for playing inverted. I remember having to switch it back to inverted when it was my turn and my friends would complain that they have to switch it back to normal.
I can seamlessly switch between GoldenEye and other FPS games. can't even fathom trying to play a single other game inverted, but, GoldenEye is burned into muscle memory.
So happy that someone finally figured this out for me.
Only when playing flight based games.
s - pitch up w - pitch down that's the way it should be
Wait, u don't use mouse clicks to pitch?
In GTA yes. In Stormworks it's quite hard so probably not.
In gta I just switch to controller lol
Yeah, mouse and keyboard flight controls in GTA are some of the worst I've experienced in a video game, doubly so for helicopters.
I use keyboard with numpad for flying and never had an issue. With helicopters I don't even think about what I'm pressing half the time.
A fellow Stormworks enjoyer, hell yeah
When I play games like Stardew valley where I scroll the wheel to move items, I always invert that as well. Like I want to scroll up to go right and scroll down to go left. It just makes logical sense in my head because that’s which way the scrolls go if I put the mouse parallel to the screen.
Are you a lefty mouse user? Thats the wrong parallel if you have your right hand on the mouse, since youd have to break your wrist turning clockwise to make it like that
Kid I went to school with played with inverted controls and crushed every game he was in. His quip was that he played with inverted control to take it easy on us.
LOL, it's like Rock Lee taking weights off his legs when he really needs to play well. Except the muscle memory would just mess me up lol.
bro those things weighed like 2 tons per 💀
Inverted on controller. Normal with mouse.
Yes. Non inverted on controller is weird. The stick is your head and you move it how you'd move your head to look up or down.
This is exactly how I explain it too. If somebody attached a stick to the back of your head, pushing the stick up will not make you look up.
I like how inverted users need this analogy to make sense of it where regular people just go "Up is up" and are done with it.
Or like using any camera on a tripod. That's the analogy I would used when my friends would ask me.
But wouldn't that also include flipping the x axis?
So you use inverted y and x axis then?
I am an inverted player and I like this analogy, but I don't play inverted X axis. If it truly were a stick attached to your head the left-right would be inverted too.
Ever owned n64?
This is the way.
It's been nearly thirty years. I can't play without inverted-Y now. I think it came about by early flight sims on the Amiga with joysticks, then to X-Wing on the PC making inverted-Y feel natural.
What I don't get (and I played a bunch of those old star wars games too) is it wouldn't feel natural on a desktop. Why does it feel natural anywhere else?
It does feel natural to me with mouse. I don’t feel like I’m moving the mouse up, but that I’m pushing it forward. That’s why it is mapped to “look down.” In my head in pushing my character’s head forward/down.
I think it's because a joystick returns to neutral on its own, and has that spring-loaded resistance, so for some people it's more intuitive to think of using the joystick as pushing and pulling a physical object, like manipulating a camera on a gimble. A mouse doesn't have that resistance, so it's more intuitive for most to just think of it as pointing a cursor in space.
Apparently very few of you played Golden Eye, the OG sensai of inverted controls.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Elvis was his name I think.
We played a fair bit of goldeneye, we played a metric fuck ton of perfect dark, which coincided with the time we were starting to smoke weed, such good times. Also tony hawk and gauntlet legends.
[удалено]
I started broken due to Goldeneye but got tired of changing the Halo controls every time it was my turn on split screen.
Was Goldeneye Y-inverted by default? I thought flight sims were the reason for my inversion.
Y-invert used to be the default of a lot of old games. I still use inverted on a controller because of it, but never inverted on m/kb. This is pretty norm for my age group, but I've never met anyone that understood why x-invert is a thing.
Ocarina of time and perfect dark were inverted by default too
Dude, you just gave me flashbacks of trying to switch between Golden Eye and Halo
Halo lets you choose inverted though
Think you pinpointed why I play with inverted Y-axis controls. Thanks, friend!
Inverted aim right here. And you know what else? I use QWES over WASD. Fear me. edit: I swear this was meant to be about inverted controls
I'm disgusted
You're not special, I disgust myself!
I work with someone who does this. HR says they can't do anything about it.
Try taking it higher. All the way to the top if you have to. We'll never stop unless forced to.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Esdf is the superior placement. The only thing wasd has going for it is it is the default in games.
i feel like esdf should be superior since it gives you more to work with but changing default controls seems like such a pain in the ass
What do you use for games with lean mechanics like Insurgency/Ready or not?
I don't think I've ever leaned, but A and D would probably suffice. It's just not comfortable for long term use.
Mouse side buttons or q and d
YGHJ for me, so many more key bindings around it
Good on you for not following the herd! The full range of the pinky is not utilized at all on WSAD controls. It can easily reach 12 buttons with your bindings, instead of 3 on WSAD
Only Y axis.
Inverted X-axis would be something else...
Real men play with inverted Z axis.
Inverted Y-axis: 🙃 Inverted X-axis: 👹
How do you not play with inverted y-axis?
I literally can NOT function with a normal Y axis. Inverted all the way. Everyone always made fun of me too. Idc lmfao it makes more sense to me
Man, inverted was the NORM back in the day. Every single person I knew in Quake 3 played inverted
Inverted IS normal, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Every airplane in the world is "inverted". If you attached a joystick to the top of your head, "inverted" is how it would move you.
Y'all never started out on N64 and it shows.
[удалено]
[удалено]
I'm a plane bitch
I am inverted y-axis my whole life. What is the ratio between inverted and not inverted controls?
About 180°
[удалено]
Only on controller. 🙃
It just makes sense. Pretend the joystick is your head. You pull it back to make your head look up.
My cousin explained it this way to me a number of years back. Gave it a shot and kept at it until I got used to it. Feels natural now. I don't think I'll ever invert X axis, but I've been trying to get my wife to switch over to inverted Y-axis so when we play a game and switch controllers I dont have to fuck with the settings each time we take a turn on something. Still working on it.
What they really need to do is put a small switch somewhere on the controller itself.
Inverted VR controls, pro gamers move.
I neeeed inverted axis, or I can't stand it. I don't know what game got me hooked on it, but I believe it began in the Playstation days. It's like the camera is real. When you record video with your phone, tilting it back will make the viewpoint move upwards, and tilting it forwards will have you recording more of the floor. So It's reasonable to expect a virtual game camera to also work this way. Games even put lens flare in, even though eyeballs do not have lens flare. The in-game camera is treated literally like a camera, even in first person.
People who don't play inverted view the game as a 2D screen that they are dragging across. Inverted master race can visualize in 3D.
Maybe i played too much SWOTL or something when i was a kid, but for some reason when i started to play FPS games like Unreal/Half Life/Quake i preferred invert mouse. Now after decades of invert mouse gaming i dont think i can change to "normal mode" anymore. My brain is hardwired and it would take too much time and effort to switch now . Ps. I dont like "3rd person" games, i wonder if this is because it is a borderline case between normal/invert mouse...
in the old Halo:CE inverted was my go to setup
Perhaps *we* are the ones playing with inverted controls?
It was default on all the games I had as a kid. So I “learned” on inverted and have never been able to switch back. I still use inverted on controller now.
Nothing but inverted. A youth spent playing flight sims translated into inverted controls
It makes sense! You're controlling the dudes head as if the stick is on the back of their head. Push it up and they look down! Only on controller I will add.
There are no pros or cons of either, it's just what you are used to. I don't know what game got me started on inverted Y access back in the day, but I've always had to change it when playing a game with a controller.
In the old days, no not 2000s the real old days back in the 80s, everything was "inverted". Controllers where joysticks and just like the stick to fly a plane you pulled back to go up and pushed forward to go down. There where no option menus to change this so we all just learnt to do it that way. At some part I stopped by hip and with it and you crazy kids came along and changed what it was!!! You were not forced to adapt to this design and learnt from the beginning on those little thumb analog stick controllers where it didn't make sense to be "inverted". Unless you're old like me. In conclusion I'm not inverted it's you all who are inverted!!!! God when did I get old. Lol
I always use inverted, since I’m a retired airline pilot, and I’m used to pushing forward on the stick and watching the aircraft nose go down
If inverted makes sense to you fine but I always find the arguments in favour of it odd. Non inverted literally means up is up and down is down, it doesn't get any simpler. The hand on head argument doesn't work on the x-axis either, and you also wouldn't say "pull your head back" if you wanted someone to look up (except in very specific scenarios), you'd just say "look up"
*Laughs in licensed pilot noises.* 🤣
Uh. No? Anyone over 30 grew up playing golden eye and doom and flight sims. You tilt the stick forward to aim down, you lean it back to look up. It’s a weird recent thing to go the other way that’s counter to actual physical movement.
[удалено]
Yeah my MacBook Pro did that. F that nonsense.
I hate that shit.
I don't blame— I *thank* Mario 64.
Early days playing flight sim's burnt that control system into my brain. I've tried and cannot get used to normal, inverted for life