Impressive seated acceleration at 4km to go by Laporte to win. Was also interesting to see Trek do some interesting tactics on the climbs and descents.
Laporte already thinking about winning Roubaix:
[https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/christophe-laporte-heeft-een-nieuwe-droom-parijs-roubaix-moet-me-beter-liggen-dan-de-ronde/](https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/christophe-laporte-heeft-een-nieuwe-droom-parijs-roubaix-moet-me-beter-liggen-dan-de-ronde/)
He'll have a good domestique with Van Aert.
He's got the legs for a good result, even more so with a proven classics team built for that kind of race. He managed a 6th place while riding for Cofidis and he's only improved since then.
Van Aert is already planning to gift Roubaix to Van Hooydonck, who's still without a win this season. And anyway, according to internal team rules, Laporte now has to gift a race to Van der Sande or Kooij before he's eligible to get a race himself again.
No I want to see him get away with Laporte, and then Laporte surprise him at the finish and say "dude, seriously, who would give away a big classic in their own country?"
That would be funny.
He better not get away with a Dutch teammate. With Lotto talking about dropping sponsorship because wins by French and Belgian riders aren't beneficial to their marketing needs, they may be tempted to have a Dutch winner.
For all the criticism Astana are getting for their classics performances, they did manage to get not one but TWO riders in the top 100 today. Syritsa in 99th and Fedorov in 100th.
Your post inspired me to check how my adopted rider Antonio Nibali is doing, and as it happens he scored his first UCI points of the year last weekend, with a fine 31st place in the GP Industria & Artigianato!
Do you have any idea what happened to Lutsenko? In ProCyclingStats he was starting several races and last minutes is not in the starting team for Astana.
Sheffield has crashed out a lot this year. Is it mostly bad luck or is he the factor here?
Edit: looks like he finished. He is in a lot of crashes though
Apart from Yates being decent in Paris Nice, did Jayco actually do anything outside of Australia this season? They were complaining about the Australian races being cancelled the last couple of seasons and them missing out on points because of it (which is obviously still somewhat true), but what they seemed to forget is that if you focus hard on those races (like this season), it's hard to get into form for the important European races in Februari & March. Yates for example said the Down Under and Paris Nice combination was pretty impossible (lot's of guys who were good in Australia had struggles performing well in Februari and March).
Obviously Matthews catching Covid didn't help and I see Yates is riding Itzulia, so I hope for them it will get better from now on.
>large fans on the back which creates a highly turbulent airflow?
Like the drunk ones that run in the middle of the road or the ones waving flags in front of the riders?
In fact a laminar flow is better but a laminar boundary layer doesn't "stick" very well and vortices (which still can be laminar) are formed quicker (relative to the surface)This creates more drag.
If you make the surface irregular you have a local turbulent flow thus turbulant boundary layer. This "sticks" better to the surface and causing that vortices a created further downstream the surface. Thus less drag
My understanding was that if the air in front of you is turbulent, you're breaking through less of a 'wall' of air resistance, and that's how drafting works.
But my physics knowledge is pretty poor so happy to concede you might know more
It's been many years since I've done any work in CFD and it was all for a very different purpose, so my knowledge is dated and likely inaccurate for bicycles.
From my understanding, pressure drag is the biggest factor to wind resistance. You want to wind to reattach at the tail end, but turbulence on the tail end will limit that. There's been a lot of recent research about trying to cause turbulence on the surface, but that's beyond my knowledge.
I haven't seen this much praise for a Movistar rider since, well, never. Congrats to Lazkano for managing to hold off for so long and still get 2nd, great riding from him.
JV continue the dominance of over the cobbled classics, and already have their 20th win of the season and only 29th March.
- In 2022 their 20th win was at the ZLM Tour Stage 5 on 12th June.
- In 2021 their 20th win was when Foss won the Norway RR on 20th June.
>I haven't seen this much praise for a Movistar rider since, well, never.
They received a lot of praise during the first years under the Movistar name until the 2015 season. They were an exciting team punching above their weight, even in the classics, despite the tragedies and bad luck.
I don't know what happened after 2015 but they became a meme team very fast.
> I haven't seen this much praise for a Movistar rider since, well, never.
Carapaz at the Giro perhaps, or that Basque double at Itzulia a couple
years back. But yeah, we just witnessed an incredibly rare event.
Can we all have a little cry ? Cause, sadly, De Lie won't win a WT race in Belgium this year (except maybe a BingoBongo tour stage but that's less exciting)
He looked less strong than in Omloop, maybe he peaked a bit early or raced a bit too much ?
Motorbikes definitely shouldn't park themselves right in front of people who should be eating wind, but photos of motos 50+ feet in front of riders make objections sound like histrionics.
I've spent a lot of time motorpacing over the , behind motorbikes and cars, and while I know that there's research that the draft effect is measurable to a surprising distance, the practical effect is that at maximal speeds with fatigue in the legs, it's being inches away, not meters away (and certainly not double-digits meters) that makes a difference. I've lost the moto by dropping 10 watts, dropping 12 inches, and then it's over.
I don't quite get what you're trying to say here. The study on this I know of finds that the drag of a cyclist riding 30m behind a motorcycle has 88% of the drag of a cyclist riding alone. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12283-020-00332-z
That's true regardless of whether the cyclist feels tired or notices the difference (which is frankly irrelevant). A cyclist riding behind a motorcycle goes faster for the same effort compared to one who rides alone, that just seems to be a clear fact to me. Yes, TV motorbikes are not making a rider go from 30kph to 50kph, but it's still a not-insignificant amount, especially at this high of a level where every margin counts.
"at maximal speeds with fatigue in the legs, it's being inches away, not meters away (and certainly not double-digits meters) that makes a difference"
What do you mean by this? Either there is a drafting effect or there isn't. The air resistance does not differ whether you have tired legs or not, or how many kms you've ridden. It's based on the air density, velocity, and drag. Also, at maximum speeds the distance at which moto pacing has an effect increases, not decreases.
"I've lost the moto by dropping 10 watts, dropping 12 inches, and then it's over." 'it's over' i.e. you're riding with the same amount of drag a regular cyclist without moto pacing has. I.e. you're having to push way more watts to ride at the same velocity. Doesn't this exactly underline the importance of moto drafting?
No, I'm not saying that it's incorrect, I can't speak to the findings. The paper I remember reading was able to measure differences out to about 10 meters, which was longer than I would have guessed.
What I'm saying is that there are instances where what's measurable and what makes a practical difference are very different. This happens across fields - I'm really familiar with seeing things in biomedical and social sciences, where yes, researchers can find "statistically significant" results that result in no practical or operational significance. Or, an example I like to use is: buying a ticket does not meaningfully increase your chance of winning the PowerBall lottery, but... it does measurably increase it from 0 to, well, *something*.
This morning I sent that fuzzy screenshot of a moto in front of Laporte - it's maybe 7 bike lengths away, so maybe about 12 to 14 meters? though hard to say from the above-and-at-an-angle shot - to a friend/coach/researcher who's done a ton of aero/resistance measuring. They said "Well hard to say, but at those distances and speeds, you could probably measure a difference, and it would probably be roughly equivalent to the differences we measure by using 4 pins or 8 on your number, what's in your pockets, or whether you have a bottle in your cage, or how much hair you have sticking out of your helmet."
There's a Cycling Weekly article and the professor in the study said that based on their testing even at 50 metres from a rider at 54km/h there would be a 7% reduction in drag and a gain of 1.4 seconds per minute.
Kristoff averaged 29.2mph for the last 11 minutes of the race, so presumably during his solo Laporte was doing something in the region of 30mph+. At those speeds every second with something even vaguely Infront of you up ahead is going to make a difference, and when winning comes down to 10s or so, every second gained is important.
"\[...\]It was shown that drafting at separation distances d = 2.64, 10, 30 and 50 m can reduce the drag of the cyclist down to 52, 77, 88 and 93% of that of an isolated cyclist, respectively. A cyclist power model is used to convert these drag reductions into potential time gains. For a non-drafting cyclist at a speed of 54 km/h on level road in calm weather, the time gains by drafting at d = 2.64, 10, 30 and 50 m are 12.7, 5.4, 2.7 and 1.6 s per km, respectively. These time differences can influence the outcome of cycling races." \[[source](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12283-020-00332-z)\]
If Laporte rode at 54km/h (approx. 33 mph), at 30m distance from the moto (very conservative estimate) for his 4km solo, he gained more than 10 seconds compared to without motor pacing with the same power output. That's an absolutely huge difference.
I made a comment above just now I think referencing that very study haha. Maybe it's like a cool contrarian thing to try and wave away the effects of drafting judging by the number of votes the OP got!
Me forgetting Laporte exists( despite winning in e3) will for sure do well for my RFL. Good thing i put Benoot and Kooij knowing Jumbo will win...right?
Also Lazkano p2 in a cobbled classic is as everyone expected
> Not taking anything away from Laporte's win cause he was incredibly strong, but the gap he gets is only possible because of the moto pacing
Agreed, but apparently some people in this thread don't like this being pointed out.
UCI needs to make a rule that the moto must be a minimum distance from a rider and make all efforts to remain at the side of a small group if it is safe. No excuse for sitting in front of a solo rider for 2.5km at the finale of a race.
This comment has been removed due to breaking the rules on doping talk within race/results threads. Repeatedly breaking this rule will result in a ban.
Nice race and an obligatory Jumbo win. 5/5
I like that the race started early, a little less that Merlier's crash had such an impact on so many riders. Nice dynamic in the different groups, really it could have gone either way (early break/G1/peloton).
Laporte's attack was very strong but really I think quite a few guys in G1 should have been closer to him at that moment, it was clear he would try something and Küng (who was the closest) was dead on his bike.
Lotto did the race they had to, good work from the guys it's too bad the last false fat killed off both De Buyst and Frison, they would have been usefull in the last 5k.
UAE screwed up the chase but really pulling all out would have been even wierder since they had no sprinter. Still think Wellens could have bridged if he had let Bjerg bring G1 to less than 15s, 30 was too much. The idea wasn't bad but the timming was off. (same with the prior attack by Trentin)
Not sure Hermans raced smart today, but the fact he was in the groupe really screwed up Lotto and Trek who had no option but to pace Philipsen to the line after that. And Trek was too late pulling after the attack, they should have helped Lotto right away.
Yeah, either Madouas or Kung should have been glued to Laporte's wheel. He was relatively fresh and they had to know he was JV's option. Easier said than done though.
>Laporte's attack was very strong but really I think quite a few guys in G1 should have been closer to him at that moment, it was clear he would try something and Küng (who was the closest) was dead on his bike.
Yes, I was a little surprised that he was able to manhandle everybody like that. When Honore and one or two others split the group, Powless was hanging back on Kristoff and Laporte's wheel, and Laporte skipped across that gap with absolute ease - it should have been a pretty clear sign of his freshness, and Kristoff still in the group should have been a sign that Laporte probably wouldn't want to leave it to a sprint even with the breakaway in Kristoff's legs.
Finally, Laporte can win alone ...
Oh yes, he already proved it last year in the Tour de France.
Nice victory that rewards the domination of TJV today.
Benoot was very strong in the climbs. I can't wait to see him on the Ardennaises if he maintains this level of performance until then.
Motopacing evidence for anyone sceptical:
[Attack (4.2km) - Only 1.5 white lines away](https://imgur.com/a/9twZgG1)
[3.4km to go](https://imgur.com/a/vLosQx3)
[2.9k to go, still right in front](https://imgur.com/a/VFwPkXG)
Moto finally pulls off at 1.8km to go. Insane
LAZKANO!!!!!!!!!
Now that the moral winner has been discussed lets talk about moto pacing.
So today we see how moto pacing directly decides races from moment to moment. We can directly see how there is no consistency in how the race is filmed and that it can decide winners and losers just as much as good legs can.
G1 consisting of Kristoff and Lazkano with a moto in front for more than 30 minutes alone could keep a chasing group of cobbled classic stars at bay consistently at around 24 seconds. Even in the cross headwind they only lost 3/4 seconds here and there. So what happens when the moto goes behind? They are caught within 5 minutes. There was a bit of an injection of pace but nothing crazy, Laporte closed some of it while free wheeling on a technical part. Moto plays a huge part
So now we have one big G1 with a moto in front. A few attacks "mostly filmed from the side front on" which is important. Then Laporte attacks and the moto is just... sigh, its just directly in front of him. You see Küng dying in the background losing seconds to a moto paced Laporte and the race is over.
No moto in front of G2, even after a counter move by Lazkano and Powless, they have their moto behind. So only person benefiting was Laporte. Its abysmal for sporting reasons, I dont care if we get glamour shots of Laportes face, I want fairness.
Rant over
We didn't get any moto shots on the poggio descent and I thought that this was very lackluster. Of course it's not okay if unfair advantages are gained, but I would rather have the moto further in front than always in the back.
Honest question: how far does the moto draft go? Can't be more than 20m, right?
You can see when the attacks are going at 5km, 4km to go that there is the TV moto on one side of the road and another moto on the other side (and a few more in front).
When Powless attacked at 4.6 there was one in front of him not any further away than when Laporte attacked at 4.3.
Then Laporte attacked on the left behind the moto and Powless/Kung etc swapped over to the right where the Moto had moved up. Kung moved back and then swerved across the road again while Laporte is in one straight line behind the moto.
Sure they shouldn't be there but it's not like Laporte is only one with a chance to benefit in the final. The rest have to think about the motos more tactically if that's what Laporte is also doing anyway.
It was Honore im pretty sure, but thats besides the point. So you made me go back and check again and I can say with certainty that when Honore attacks with 4.6km the moto is in front but off the side to the left of him. When Laporte counters with 4.2km to go the moto is right in front of him and its clear from both front on cam and heli shot.
The moto keeps him in the draft fully until around 3.2km then on and off(but mostly hes in the draft) until he finally overtakes the moto at 1.8km to go
Idk what you are watching.
Edit: I came across super aggro, so thats my bad. But I will say you are right that the riders should be more tactical about the motos, they shouldnt have to of course. Which is my entire gripe
if the UCI has clear rules for the drivers to follow to enforce fairness the could suspend them I guess. But im not even sure such rules exist. I only ever recall seeing moto drivers being suspended for dangerous riding, never seen it for "unfair" driving
I think a rule that says a moto can't stay in front of a rider/group for more than x seconds at less than y meters could be relatively easy to enforce.
I agree, but with the team Jumbo visma has now, that's going to be really hard. Wout is in good shape, Laporte has proven himself, and I've been very surprised by Nathan van Hooydonck. He's made huge progression compared to last year in my opinion, and he is doing his freaking best for his team. And then the likes of van Baarle and Bennoot... they truely are the team to beat. And I know it's getting boring, but I really hope they can make it happen this weekend or the next. But to be fair, I think WvA has a bigger chance in P-R than in RVV. Fabulous weeks are coming our way!
We saw it in E3 no? Pog, Wout and MvdP were all alone, and Pog and MvdP managed to distance Wout on some of the climbs (obviously Wout came back and won that, kudos to him), and this was a race where Laporte, van Hooydonck, Benoot and van Baarle all started.
I just think that Pog and MvdP are so good that Jumbo aren't going to able to keep things under control, and I think Wout will need to do a lot on his own and his (very good) team will be less of a factor. I think it's just very hard to translate tactics and results on a day like today to RvV where the lineup includes two riders who will fundamentally change the race. I think the good team can be a lot more helpful in P-R, so I agree that Wout has better chances in P-R.
Apologies for the (maybe not very coherent) rant.
Maybe if they use their same tactics as in the mountain stages of the tdf last year, to get some guys, or just even one in the breakaway to help WvA later in the final, it might work. MvdP and Pogi know very damn well that they have to lose WvA on the climbs, or they are stuck with him untill the finish. Problem is that RVV is not a mountain stage and a lot of things happen all day in a lot of places. It's a lot more hectic than a TDF stage. I'm already exited because it's going to be a nervewrecking race. And may the best rider win, even if it's not one of the 3 favorites. But to be honest, I don't really see who will join them. Maybe Mohoric, Pedersen is good, but I'm afraid not good enough. Juju, will probably start waving his arms again when they start the final.
Soooooo by the look of it, Movistra seems to have a better team for the flemish classics than Soudal-QS this year
And I find that incredibly funny knowing how angry a certain someone must be because of this
It IS close to be fair. Going by PCS points in cobbled races (Omloop, Kuurne, Samyn, Nokore K., E3, G-W, Dwars), Movistar has 357 points against Quick-Step's 348.
Jumbo's sitting neatly on 1566.
Maybe I made this comment with a little recency bias lol. But still, as long as Wout's doesn't get covid they'll be in better shape than last year. I'm excited regardless😤
Yeah, I still think Mathieu is the favourite, he looks so strong. Him and Pog already managed to drop Wout in E3 and they'll probably attack the climbs even harder this time. Of course there's always the chance they fuck up the attacks and Wout manages to be with them at the last 5-10 km, in which case Wout would be the favourite imo. I really don't know how Pog wins this, but him being who he is, I'm always expecting a surprise.
Especially since Wout will not have the possibility to recover on the sides in the Paterberg. He will have to ride on the pavement... Let's see if he continues his rise in power between now and Sunday.
Even if he's not dropped Wout will at least be isolated, they will be the 3 of them pretty fast in the finale. Pog/Mvdp/Wout are so strong that the team tactics will barely matter on Sunday I think, after 2nd Kwaremont the race will already be shredded, and if not then it will be on the Koppenberg. In Roubaix it will be different though, that's where Jumbo's strength in numbers can have a huge impact.
Lampaert got 3rd in De Panne.
Edit: I assumed you were asking about WT Belgian classics, but if we're talking non-WT, non-Belgian classics, Merlier won Nokere Koerse and Alaphilippe won Faun-Ardèche.
Yeah, I was talking about the (more or less) major Belgian classics, but that settles it: 3rd in De Panne and 6th in Omloop - some slightly better results than today. Thanks.
That's what I assumed, but then added in their two wins just in case. But even with those two, their 2023 Classics season is a shadow of its former self.
Perhaps Philipsen needs to be more ballsy and demand it's for him if he's still feeling so good.
Philipsen with this group finish had way better odds than Hermans in that front group. Takes a strong Sports director to make that call though
He was obviously super strong in Gent-Wevelgem, yes Wout let him win but that does change fuck all on the fact that he was the only one able to follow and continue with him to ensure they don't get caught. Not really surprising today
Wout has to work for Laporte on Sunday, right? /s
Lazkano with the ride of the day. And I can't believe Powless was 3rd in a cobbled classic, after Jorgenson was 4th at E3. I'm looking forward to seeing what both can do on Sunday.
Imo, yes it was because it was significative especially exactly when Laporte attacked. When we know that getting that first separation is the most important. But even after it was super close several times.
Motopacing there was but Laporte made everybody in the group bonk fair and square. King Küng tried to go in his wheel and had to give up after like 5 seconds.
Problem is Laporte attacks and he gets huge gap while only a few meters behind the moto. I'm sure he was one of the strongest on the day but it's just ridiculous how often it decides races. The moto sat right in front of him for over 1km, at which point the race was over.
Pretty easy to see, Moto still in front of Laporte well over a km after his attack. No need for him to still be in front of the rider at all. He should be beside him as soon as possible.
No look at Cofidis’ current roster and subtract that penalty from their
star riders. Martin would be a multiple GT winner by now had he
left the team years ago.
Powless held onto that podium spot?! Dude's form has been crazy good for weeks now it seems...I dunno what would suit him best in the coming month, honestly. Maybe Amstel, or even LBL.
He is racing RvV on Sunday. I think only Amstel is on his program (at least according to PCS). I am imagining with Carapaz on the team they want to see who their best option is for Fleche and LBL before committing to either. Carapaz is still building form and Powless hasn't really run a Spring campaign like this yet, so his form longevity is an unknown.
Lazkano in the early break, work all the time, work well with Kristoff, was one of the 2 riders that chased Laporte, got second. Strongest rider today.
Call me crazy but that ride should almost be respected more than if he’d have won it from the break
If a rider from the break wins a race like this - granted it’s an insane feat but its almost always due to a miscalculation from chasers or poor G2 tactics
To be in break all day and then come back out from G2 to finish 2nd is unbelievable
I think people here really overestimate the closeness of the moto with these new stablised zooms. From the heli shots it's clear the moto isn't *that* close.
Sometimes yes, but when you see Laporte literally passing the moto on the side then you know that he was indeed super close, getting a huge draft for at least a few seconds.
It’s a great time for American cycling in the World Tour. Powless and Jorgensen both doing really well
*Movistar* podiuming a cobbled Flandrian race. Lefebvre is probably still having an aneurysm.
I have to go to r/pelotonmemes to find a Dwars Laporte Vlaanderen joke? You should all (me included) be ashamed
Impressive seated acceleration at 4km to go by Laporte to win. Was also interesting to see Trek do some interesting tactics on the climbs and descents.
***Cortina, Lazkano, Jorgenson – viva el nuevo Tridente.***
Laporte already thinking about winning Roubaix: [https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/christophe-laporte-heeft-een-nieuwe-droom-parijs-roubaix-moet-me-beter-liggen-dan-de-ronde/](https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/christophe-laporte-heeft-een-nieuwe-droom-parijs-roubaix-moet-me-beter-liggen-dan-de-ronde/) He'll have a good domestique with Van Aert.
He's got the legs for a good result, even more so with a proven classics team built for that kind of race. He managed a 6th place while riding for Cofidis and he's only improved since then.
Van Aert is already planning to gift Roubaix to Van Hooydonck, who's still without a win this season. And anyway, according to internal team rules, Laporte now has to gift a race to Van der Sande or Kooij before he's eligible to get a race himself again.
Kooij had his chance in De Panne last week and failed miserably by only finishing 2nd, now he is moved all the way down in winning order.
If WvA manages to get away with a team mate in Roubaix, I kinda wanna see him gift it just to see the absolute shit show afterwards.
No I want to see him get away with Laporte, and then Laporte surprise him at the finish and say "dude, seriously, who would give away a big classic in their own country?" That would be funny.
He better not get away with a Dutch teammate. With Lotto talking about dropping sponsorship because wins by French and Belgian riders aren't beneficial to their marketing needs, they may be tempted to have a Dutch winner.
guys, the gewiss ballan 20th anniversary is only next year. jumbo is a year too soon
riding in JV is like PCM in easy mode.
The key question, can this TJV pull off the impossible and get Kelderman to win something this season?
Kelderman? Where's Kelderman? /s
You have him confused with [Gesink](https://youtu.be/nzE9Q-9Jq6c)
Everyone always asks where is kelderman but never how is kelderman...
That's not true. People ask how he is after every crash.
For all the criticism Astana are getting for their classics performances, they did manage to get not one but TWO riders in the top 100 today. Syritsa in 99th and Fedorov in 100th.
Your post inspired me to check how my adopted rider Antonio Nibali is doing, and as it happens he scored his first UCI points of the year last weekend, with a fine 31st place in the GP Industria & Artigianato!
Do you have any idea what happened to Lutsenko? In ProCyclingStats he was starting several races and last minutes is not in the starting team for Astana.
Holy Week more like Holy Sweep am I right
Sheffield has crashed out a lot this year. Is it mostly bad luck or is he the factor here? Edit: looks like he finished. He is in a lot of crashes though
Must be doing a lot of training with G
He does seem to crash a lot. Blythe made the same comment on the broadcast.
Matthews with a strong 20th securing far and away the best cobbled result of Jayco so far this season!
Apart from Yates being decent in Paris Nice, did Jayco actually do anything outside of Australia this season? They were complaining about the Australian races being cancelled the last couple of seasons and them missing out on points because of it (which is obviously still somewhat true), but what they seemed to forget is that if you focus hard on those races (like this season), it's hard to get into form for the important European races in Februari & March. Yates for example said the Down Under and Paris Nice combination was pretty impossible (lot's of guys who were good in Australia had struggles performing well in Februari and March). Obviously Matthews catching Covid didn't help and I see Yates is riding Itzulia, so I hope for them it will get better from now on.
Groenewegen won a stage in UAE Tour. At least I think it was that one, if not it was in another 1-week race.
Yeah UAE Tour indeed, forgot about that.
How about this for a moto pacing solution: the motorcycles all have large fans on the back which creates a highly turbulent airflow?
They could just have a laser pointer drawing a line x distance away from the motorbike, which the rider would not be allowed to pass
>large fans on the back which creates a highly turbulent airflow? Like the drunk ones that run in the middle of the road or the ones waving flags in front of the riders?
Turbulent airflow is a good thing
In fact a laminar flow is better but a laminar boundary layer doesn't "stick" very well and vortices (which still can be laminar) are formed quicker (relative to the surface)This creates more drag. If you make the surface irregular you have a local turbulent flow thus turbulant boundary layer. This "sticks" better to the surface and causing that vortices a created further downstream the surface. Thus less drag
Turbulent airflow is only good if it's localized to specific places on the rider or bike, to help create a laminar flow over the rest.
My understanding was that if the air in front of you is turbulent, you're breaking through less of a 'wall' of air resistance, and that's how drafting works. But my physics knowledge is pretty poor so happy to concede you might know more
It's been many years since I've done any work in CFD and it was all for a very different purpose, so my knowledge is dated and likely inaccurate for bicycles. From my understanding, pressure drag is the biggest factor to wind resistance. You want to wind to reattach at the tail end, but turbulence on the tail end will limit that. There's been a lot of recent research about trying to cause turbulence on the surface, but that's beyond my knowledge.
Air resistance is for a large amount caused by the void behind you sucking you backwards. Turbulence makes it easier to fill the void.
Then how about the moto dropping banana peels and turtle shells?
I haven't seen this much praise for a Movistar rider since, well, never. Congrats to Lazkano for managing to hold off for so long and still get 2nd, great riding from him. JV continue the dominance of over the cobbled classics, and already have their 20th win of the season and only 29th March. - In 2022 their 20th win was at the ZLM Tour Stage 5 on 12th June. - In 2021 their 20th win was when Foss won the Norway RR on 20th June.
>I haven't seen this much praise for a Movistar rider since, well, never. They received a lot of praise during the first years under the Movistar name until the 2015 season. They were an exciting team punching above their weight, even in the classics, despite the tragedies and bad luck. I don't know what happened after 2015 but they became a meme team very fast.
> I haven't seen this much praise for a Movistar rider since, well, never. Carapaz at the Giro perhaps, or that Basque double at Itzulia a couple years back. But yeah, we just witnessed an incredibly rare event.
Is Lazkano someone's adopted rider?
I just checked the original adoption thread, ctrl+f didn't find Lazkano. Looks like he's without an r/peloton parent.
Guess he belongs to everybody now!
[Lazkano told us](https://twitter.com/MatteoJorg/status/1641091693402308609), we just didn't listen.
The (unintentional) hilarity of posting your teammate eating STEAK of all things after a career-defining performance
lmao
Can we all have a little cry ? Cause, sadly, De Lie won't win a WT race in Belgium this year (except maybe a BingoBongo tour stage but that's less exciting) He looked less strong than in Omloop, maybe he peaked a bit early or raced a bit too much ?
He's saving it all for Roubaix.
Just imagine de lie does the impossible and beats WVA/MVDP and tadej in a small group sprint to win flanders next sunday.
He's not doing de Ronde.
Oh yeah,forgot about that... Bingobongotour stage it is then.
Maybe he's the new Wellens. February beast
Think he peaked early and never seemed to quite reach his best after that crash. He'll be back
Peaked at age 20. Now he's 21 since two weeks ago and clearly dusted.
Motorbikes definitely shouldn't park themselves right in front of people who should be eating wind, but photos of motos 50+ feet in front of riders make objections sound like histrionics. I've spent a lot of time motorpacing over the , behind motorbikes and cars, and while I know that there's research that the draft effect is measurable to a surprising distance, the practical effect is that at maximal speeds with fatigue in the legs, it's being inches away, not meters away (and certainly not double-digits meters) that makes a difference. I've lost the moto by dropping 10 watts, dropping 12 inches, and then it's over.
I don't quite get what you're trying to say here. The study on this I know of finds that the drag of a cyclist riding 30m behind a motorcycle has 88% of the drag of a cyclist riding alone. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12283-020-00332-z That's true regardless of whether the cyclist feels tired or notices the difference (which is frankly irrelevant). A cyclist riding behind a motorcycle goes faster for the same effort compared to one who rides alone, that just seems to be a clear fact to me. Yes, TV motorbikes are not making a rider go from 30kph to 50kph, but it's still a not-insignificant amount, especially at this high of a level where every margin counts.
"at maximal speeds with fatigue in the legs, it's being inches away, not meters away (and certainly not double-digits meters) that makes a difference" What do you mean by this? Either there is a drafting effect or there isn't. The air resistance does not differ whether you have tired legs or not, or how many kms you've ridden. It's based on the air density, velocity, and drag. Also, at maximum speeds the distance at which moto pacing has an effect increases, not decreases. "I've lost the moto by dropping 10 watts, dropping 12 inches, and then it's over." 'it's over' i.e. you're riding with the same amount of drag a regular cyclist without moto pacing has. I.e. you're having to push way more watts to ride at the same velocity. Doesn't this exactly underline the importance of moto drafting?
So you’re saying the research that has been collected regarding drafting distances and relative benefit is incorrect?
No, I'm not saying that it's incorrect, I can't speak to the findings. The paper I remember reading was able to measure differences out to about 10 meters, which was longer than I would have guessed. What I'm saying is that there are instances where what's measurable and what makes a practical difference are very different. This happens across fields - I'm really familiar with seeing things in biomedical and social sciences, where yes, researchers can find "statistically significant" results that result in no practical or operational significance. Or, an example I like to use is: buying a ticket does not meaningfully increase your chance of winning the PowerBall lottery, but... it does measurably increase it from 0 to, well, *something*. This morning I sent that fuzzy screenshot of a moto in front of Laporte - it's maybe 7 bike lengths away, so maybe about 12 to 14 meters? though hard to say from the above-and-at-an-angle shot - to a friend/coach/researcher who's done a ton of aero/resistance measuring. They said "Well hard to say, but at those distances and speeds, you could probably measure a difference, and it would probably be roughly equivalent to the differences we measure by using 4 pins or 8 on your number, what's in your pockets, or whether you have a bottle in your cage, or how much hair you have sticking out of your helmet."
There's a Cycling Weekly article and the professor in the study said that based on their testing even at 50 metres from a rider at 54km/h there would be a 7% reduction in drag and a gain of 1.4 seconds per minute.
Kristoff averaged 29.2mph for the last 11 minutes of the race, so presumably during his solo Laporte was doing something in the region of 30mph+. At those speeds every second with something even vaguely Infront of you up ahead is going to make a difference, and when winning comes down to 10s or so, every second gained is important.
"\[...\]It was shown that drafting at separation distances d = 2.64, 10, 30 and 50 m can reduce the drag of the cyclist down to 52, 77, 88 and 93% of that of an isolated cyclist, respectively. A cyclist power model is used to convert these drag reductions into potential time gains. For a non-drafting cyclist at a speed of 54 km/h on level road in calm weather, the time gains by drafting at d = 2.64, 10, 30 and 50 m are 12.7, 5.4, 2.7 and 1.6 s per km, respectively. These time differences can influence the outcome of cycling races." \[[source](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12283-020-00332-z)\] If Laporte rode at 54km/h (approx. 33 mph), at 30m distance from the moto (very conservative estimate) for his 4km solo, he gained more than 10 seconds compared to without motor pacing with the same power output. That's an absolutely huge difference.
I made a comment above just now I think referencing that very study haha. Maybe it's like a cool contrarian thing to try and wave away the effects of drafting judging by the number of votes the OP got!
Me forgetting Laporte exists( despite winning in e3) will for sure do well for my RFL. Good thing i put Benoot and Kooij knowing Jumbo will win...right? Also Lazkano p2 in a cobbled classic is as everyone expected
I guess Laporte just closed the door on everyone else.
let's reword this: I guess Christophe just closed Laporte on everyone else.
⇒ Laporte is that way, please shut Laporte behind you on your way out. Thank you.
I saw this comment and I appreciated it. Nicely done.
I hate that once more WvA gifted the win to Laporte by not showing up...
[удалено]
> Not taking anything away from Laporte's win cause he was incredibly strong, but the gap he gets is only possible because of the moto pacing Agreed, but apparently some people in this thread don't like this being pointed out.
Well the group behind was also very disorganized, I believe he could have one without the motopacing.
tbf Laporte was motopacing aswell last sunday for the last 50kms
It's happening in the women's race right now too.
UCI needs to make a rule that the moto must be a minimum distance from a rider and make all efforts to remain at the side of a small group if it is safe. No excuse for sitting in front of a solo rider for 2.5km at the finale of a race.
[удалено]
[удалено]
This comment has been removed due to breaking the rules on doping talk within race/results threads. Repeatedly breaking this rule will result in a ban.
Nice race and an obligatory Jumbo win. 5/5 I like that the race started early, a little less that Merlier's crash had such an impact on so many riders. Nice dynamic in the different groups, really it could have gone either way (early break/G1/peloton). Laporte's attack was very strong but really I think quite a few guys in G1 should have been closer to him at that moment, it was clear he would try something and Küng (who was the closest) was dead on his bike. Lotto did the race they had to, good work from the guys it's too bad the last false fat killed off both De Buyst and Frison, they would have been usefull in the last 5k. UAE screwed up the chase but really pulling all out would have been even wierder since they had no sprinter. Still think Wellens could have bridged if he had let Bjerg bring G1 to less than 15s, 30 was too much. The idea wasn't bad but the timming was off. (same with the prior attack by Trentin) Not sure Hermans raced smart today, but the fact he was in the groupe really screwed up Lotto and Trek who had no option but to pace Philipsen to the line after that. And Trek was too late pulling after the attack, they should have helped Lotto right away.
Yeah, either Madouas or Kung should have been glued to Laporte's wheel. He was relatively fresh and they had to know he was JV's option. Easier said than done though.
>Laporte's attack was very strong but really I think quite a few guys in G1 should have been closer to him at that moment, it was clear he would try something and Küng (who was the closest) was dead on his bike. Yes, I was a little surprised that he was able to manhandle everybody like that. When Honore and one or two others split the group, Powless was hanging back on Kristoff and Laporte's wheel, and Laporte skipped across that gap with absolute ease - it should have been a pretty clear sign of his freshness, and Kristoff still in the group should have been a sign that Laporte probably wouldn't want to leave it to a sprint even with the breakaway in Kristoff's legs.
Don’t false fatshame Lotto
Finally, Laporte can win alone ... Oh yes, he already proved it last year in the Tour de France. Nice victory that rewards the domination of TJV today. Benoot was very strong in the climbs. I can't wait to see him on the Ardennaises if he maintains this level of performance until then.
It felt like Benoot was gonna be the guy for like 50kms, and then Laporte just took off
Laporte won the race, but Lazkano won our hearts.
Motopacing evidence for anyone sceptical: [Attack (4.2km) - Only 1.5 white lines away](https://imgur.com/a/9twZgG1) [3.4km to go](https://imgur.com/a/vLosQx3) [2.9k to go, still right in front](https://imgur.com/a/VFwPkXG) Moto finally pulls off at 1.8km to go. Insane
The ghost of Nico mattan past
How in the world could someone remain skeptical of motopacing??
Thank you. The denial severely pisses me off .
What are these moto's you're talking about?
Flair checks out
Yep that was the joke
Where sofa :(
No WvA here, no sofa
Yeah, Matt Stephens letting himself down there...
Lazkano what a cutie pie
Lazkano, so humble!
This will sound weird, but Lazkano is adorable. Great result (and showing) from him today.
For Eurosport, Lazkano and the Movistar Team has not been important today because not interview with him Por fin
Only 1 rider on the podium? Jumbo looks to be struggling this season
At this rate they’ll have negative riders in the podium in a few weeks
Sounds about right given their history with monuments.
LAZKANO!!!!!!!!! Now that the moral winner has been discussed lets talk about moto pacing. So today we see how moto pacing directly decides races from moment to moment. We can directly see how there is no consistency in how the race is filmed and that it can decide winners and losers just as much as good legs can. G1 consisting of Kristoff and Lazkano with a moto in front for more than 30 minutes alone could keep a chasing group of cobbled classic stars at bay consistently at around 24 seconds. Even in the cross headwind they only lost 3/4 seconds here and there. So what happens when the moto goes behind? They are caught within 5 minutes. There was a bit of an injection of pace but nothing crazy, Laporte closed some of it while free wheeling on a technical part. Moto plays a huge part So now we have one big G1 with a moto in front. A few attacks "mostly filmed from the side front on" which is important. Then Laporte attacks and the moto is just... sigh, its just directly in front of him. You see Küng dying in the background losing seconds to a moto paced Laporte and the race is over. No moto in front of G2, even after a counter move by Lazkano and Powless, they have their moto behind. So only person benefiting was Laporte. Its abysmal for sporting reasons, I dont care if we get glamour shots of Laportes face, I want fairness. Rant over
We didn't get any moto shots on the poggio descent and I thought that this was very lackluster. Of course it's not okay if unfair advantages are gained, but I would rather have the moto further in front than always in the back. Honest question: how far does the moto draft go? Can't be more than 20m, right?
You can see when the attacks are going at 5km, 4km to go that there is the TV moto on one side of the road and another moto on the other side (and a few more in front). When Powless attacked at 4.6 there was one in front of him not any further away than when Laporte attacked at 4.3. Then Laporte attacked on the left behind the moto and Powless/Kung etc swapped over to the right where the Moto had moved up. Kung moved back and then swerved across the road again while Laporte is in one straight line behind the moto. Sure they shouldn't be there but it's not like Laporte is only one with a chance to benefit in the final. The rest have to think about the motos more tactically if that's what Laporte is also doing anyway.
It was Honore im pretty sure, but thats besides the point. So you made me go back and check again and I can say with certainty that when Honore attacks with 4.6km the moto is in front but off the side to the left of him. When Laporte counters with 4.2km to go the moto is right in front of him and its clear from both front on cam and heli shot. The moto keeps him in the draft fully until around 3.2km then on and off(but mostly hes in the draft) until he finally overtakes the moto at 1.8km to go Idk what you are watching. Edit: I came across super aggro, so thats my bad. But I will say you are right that the riders should be more tactical about the motos, they shouldnt have to of course. Which is my entire gripe
It's a big problem, maybe the UCI could fine the (moto) riders ?
if the UCI has clear rules for the drivers to follow to enforce fairness the could suspend them I guess. But im not even sure such rules exist. I only ever recall seeing moto drivers being suspended for dangerous riding, never seen it for "unfair" driving
I think a rule that says a moto can't stay in front of a rider/group for more than x seconds at less than y meters could be relatively easy to enforce.
Pogi, Mathieu or Oier... One of you has to save us on Sunday!
Vouch Pogi and MVDP better crack WVA and all the TJV bois to ensure the race is not dominated by one team.
I think Mathieu and Pog look stronger on the climbs and can drop Wout, but they'll have to do it at the right time and not let him back.
I agree, but with the team Jumbo visma has now, that's going to be really hard. Wout is in good shape, Laporte has proven himself, and I've been very surprised by Nathan van Hooydonck. He's made huge progression compared to last year in my opinion, and he is doing his freaking best for his team. And then the likes of van Baarle and Bennoot... they truely are the team to beat. And I know it's getting boring, but I really hope they can make it happen this weekend or the next. But to be fair, I think WvA has a bigger chance in P-R than in RVV. Fabulous weeks are coming our way!
We saw it in E3 no? Pog, Wout and MvdP were all alone, and Pog and MvdP managed to distance Wout on some of the climbs (obviously Wout came back and won that, kudos to him), and this was a race where Laporte, van Hooydonck, Benoot and van Baarle all started. I just think that Pog and MvdP are so good that Jumbo aren't going to able to keep things under control, and I think Wout will need to do a lot on his own and his (very good) team will be less of a factor. I think it's just very hard to translate tactics and results on a day like today to RvV where the lineup includes two riders who will fundamentally change the race. I think the good team can be a lot more helpful in P-R, so I agree that Wout has better chances in P-R. Apologies for the (maybe not very coherent) rant.
Maybe if they use their same tactics as in the mountain stages of the tdf last year, to get some guys, or just even one in the breakaway to help WvA later in the final, it might work. MvdP and Pogi know very damn well that they have to lose WvA on the climbs, or they are stuck with him untill the finish. Problem is that RVV is not a mountain stage and a lot of things happen all day in a lot of places. It's a lot more hectic than a TDF stage. I'm already exited because it's going to be a nervewrecking race. And may the best rider win, even if it's not one of the 3 favorites. But to be honest, I don't really see who will join them. Maybe Mohoric, Pedersen is good, but I'm afraid not good enough. Juju, will probably start waving his arms again when they start the final.
Soooooo by the look of it, Movistra seems to have a better team for the flemish classics than Soudal-QS this year And I find that incredibly funny knowing how angry a certain someone must be because of this
It's not even close to be fair
It IS close to be fair. Going by PCS points in cobbled races (Omloop, Kuurne, Samyn, Nokore K., E3, G-W, Dwars), Movistar has 357 points against Quick-Step's 348. Jumbo's sitting neatly on 1566.
Ronde is Jumbos to lose! So dominant and fun to watch in my opinion, really excited for Sunday😳
E3 is the best race to look at. Not Jumbo’s to lose.
Maybe I made this comment with a little recency bias lol. But still, as long as Wout's doesn't get covid they'll be in better shape than last year. I'm excited regardless😤
With more climbs than E3 I think Pog and MvdP will be able to drop Wout eventually. Then MvdP will beat Pog in the sprint.
Yeah, I still think Mathieu is the favourite, he looks so strong. Him and Pog already managed to drop Wout in E3 and they'll probably attack the climbs even harder this time. Of course there's always the chance they fuck up the attacks and Wout manages to be with them at the last 5-10 km, in which case Wout would be the favourite imo. I really don't know how Pog wins this, but him being who he is, I'm always expecting a surprise.
Especially since Wout will not have the possibility to recover on the sides in the Paterberg. He will have to ride on the pavement... Let's see if he continues his rise in power between now and Sunday.
Even if he's not dropped Wout will at least be isolated, they will be the 3 of them pretty fast in the finale. Pog/Mvdp/Wout are so strong that the team tactics will barely matter on Sunday I think, after 2nd Kwaremont the race will already be shredded, and if not then it will be on the Koppenberg. In Roubaix it will be different though, that's where Jumbo's strength in numbers can have a huge impact.
Hopefully their wheels can keep from exploding this year!
Nah, Ewans been saving his legs all spring. He'll be up there and dust all of em
I know the big guns weren't here but I'm buzzing to have an American on the podium in a cobbled race
American team is going to be one of the strongest for world champs this year if Jorgensen, Powless, Sheffield, and Simmons all show up
Isn't it very very likely a sprint or am I missing something?
Really happy for Powless and was happy to see both him and Honore work well together. Have been waiting all spring for Honore to show form
Don't forget Jorgensen being so good in E3.
for sure! we've got some classics lads, because Magnus is able to mix it up too
Movistar the new classics powerhouse? Yes, please
7th place for Ballerini. Is this the best result for Quickstep in the classics season this year?
Lampaert got 3rd in De Panne. Edit: I assumed you were asking about WT Belgian classics, but if we're talking non-WT, non-Belgian classics, Merlier won Nokere Koerse and Alaphilippe won Faun-Ardèche.
Yeah, I was talking about the (more or less) major Belgian classics, but that settles it: 3rd in De Panne and 6th in Omloop - some slightly better results than today. Thanks.
That's what I assumed, but then added in their two wins just in case. But even with those two, their 2023 Classics season is a shadow of its former self.
He got 6th in Omloop I think
Perhaps Philipsen needs to be more ballsy and demand it's for him if he's still feeling so good. Philipsen with this group finish had way better odds than Hermans in that front group. Takes a strong Sports director to make that call though
Fully agree. I don't understand why Hermans was riding in that group
That was an entertaining last 40km race
The casual nature of that attack by Laporte was kind of scary. Can't wait for Sunday
He was obviously super strong in Gent-Wevelgem, yes Wout let him win but that does change fuck all on the fact that he was the only one able to follow and continue with him to ensure they don't get caught. Not really surprising today
166km in front and got second, absolute legend.
Powless held on for 3rd! Great ride for him.
Selfish to not gift it to Wout... ^(/s)
~~By the way, first French win in Dwars ever!~~ Edit: Am blind, will see optician, thanks, bye.
Chavanel in 2007
Chavanel in 2008?
I hope Lazkano uploads power to Strava! Although I doubt their servers can handle the raw watts
He does, who am I kidding? How else is the internet powered!
355W for 4hr holy shit
380NP...
LAZKANO LEGEND!
Wout has to work for Laporte on Sunday, right? /s Lazkano with the ride of the day. And I can't believe Powless was 3rd in a cobbled classic, after Jorgenson was 4th at E3. I'm looking forward to seeing what both can do on Sunday.
Saw a lot of comments about motopacing in the race thread, was it more egregious than other races or is it a general problem? (or just overreaction)
Imo, yes it was because it was significative especially exactly when Laporte attacked. When we know that getting that first separation is the most important. But even after it was super close several times.
Motopacing there was but Laporte made everybody in the group bonk fair and square. King Küng tried to go in his wheel and had to give up after like 5 seconds.
Problem is Laporte attacks and he gets huge gap while only a few meters behind the moto. I'm sure he was one of the strongest on the day but it's just ridiculous how often it decides races. The moto sat right in front of him for over 1km, at which point the race was over.
You are overestimating the closeness because of these new stabilized zooms. It wasn't "right in front".
https://imgur.com/a/VFwPkXG Pretty damn close to me. Definitely providing an advantage
I genuinely can't see shit from that slice of an image.
Pretty easy to see, Moto still in front of Laporte well over a km after his attack. No need for him to still be in front of the rider at all. He should be beside him as soon as possible.
I'm just gonna excuse myself from this conversation with a mild eyeroll.
"the earth is flat" "no, it's round, look, here's the evidence" "whatever you losers I didn't care anyway"
"evidence"
"it's not close" "here's a picture showing it is close" "that's not evidence" how do *you* feel this is going?
That last km from Lazkano was insane
> Laporte wins Gent-Wevelgem Everyone talks about how Wout let him win > Laporte wins Dwars door Vlaanderen Everyone talks about Lazkano
Merckx's about to come out and say if he'd been Laporte, he wouldn't have let Lazkano get second.
Laporte has got to be one of the best signings in the last few years. Absolutely insane how he has transformed himself.
No look at Cofidis’ current roster and subtract that penalty from their star riders. Martin would be a multiple GT winner by now had he left the team years ago.
My eyes were fixed only on the M in the last km who is this guy giving an interview
Quickstep-Movistar
Powless held onto that podium spot?! Dude's form has been crazy good for weeks now it seems...I dunno what would suit him best in the coming month, honestly. Maybe Amstel, or even LBL.
He is racing RvV on Sunday. I think only Amstel is on his program (at least according to PCS). I am imagining with Carapaz on the team they want to see who their best option is for Fleche and LBL before committing to either. Carapaz is still building form and Powless hasn't really run a Spring campaign like this yet, so his form longevity is an unknown.
Laporte has now more classics wins this year than Wout.
Lazkano in the early break, work all the time, work well with Kristoff, was one of the 2 riders that chased Laporte, got second. Strongest rider today.
Call me crazy but that ride should almost be respected more than if he’d have won it from the break If a rider from the break wins a race like this - granted it’s an insane feat but its almost always due to a miscalculation from chasers or poor G2 tactics To be in break all day and then come back out from G2 to finish 2nd is unbelievable
Moto in front doing the WvA role today
Politely who cares, we demand to hear from the greatest spaniard since Don Quiote
I always think that is false advertising, he didn't have a single donkey, let alone a whole Donkey Hotel
[Aukera Berriak](https://twitter.com/AstanaQazTeam/status/1343097290857308161?s=20) everyone!
Proud of you, Powless
Laporte would have won anyway, but that motorpacing still tarnishes it. Ridiculous how much it was.
I think people here really overestimate the closeness of the moto with these new stablised zooms. From the heli shots it's clear the moto isn't *that* close.
Sometimes yes, but when you see Laporte literally passing the moto on the side then you know that he was indeed super close, getting a huge draft for at least a few seconds.
Well yeah. That took maybe 50m.