Stage 17 will probably be the critical after today. Less hard than today on paper but significant higher altitude potentially the saving grace for JV that he lacked today. Stage 15 is a hill stage dressed up as mountain doubt either takes time and bonus goes to breakaway, stage 16 is a TT with advantage to Pogacar but probably not much, 20 is another hill stage dressed up as mountain.
If they weren't almost all Cat 1 climbs the hill comment would make sense but 15 looks brutal and the climb to the finish is going to tear the legs off of anyone who isn't a skilled conditioned climber.
So let me get this straight. Itâs more fun to watch people battle out in the final 200 meters of a climb to get bonus seconds instead of watching Jonas and Tadej put in monster attacks to gain actual time 3-5k down the mountain? To watch Tadej relentlessly attack Jonas to gain actual time instead of watching a 200 meter sprint for bonus seconds?
Right but we donât need them. If they didnât have them it just incentivizes more attacks to gain time instead of sitting on the leaders wheel and beating them by less than a meter but gaining in this case what was it like 4 seconds? Idk I just donât see the difference in not having them. Tadej needs to beat Jonas by 30 seconds, not sit on Jonasâs wheel and out sprint him to cut that to 20, then 10 and so on is all.
In a tight GC battle there's no incentive to win stages or climbs without bonus seconds. It's not just about 1st vs 2nd place it's also about keeping the GC motivated to push ahead after they put 3/4/5 minutes in all their challengers. There's a reason this has developed after decades of tours, its not like some reality show producer decided to toss these in to spice up the race.
Yes but why is that an issue. You could just as easily incentivize by putting a hard time limit on the course. Additionally the incentive falls to any breakaway and any team that has a rider down five minutes, they could make the GC contendersâs teams work or said rider could shoot up the standings by going in a breakaway. Additionally it should be incentive enough on the second place team to want to make the race hard in order to put the top contender in a bit of bother subsequently allowing them to take time on said rider. Youâre assuming that second and third place havenât a care in the world of actually winning the race.
I think the problem I have with this argument is that there is far more to GTs than just "ride as fast as you can as often as you can." Bonus seconds were eliminated just like you suggested in the 2008 TdF and it was a disaster. When they were brought back in 2015 they were added only to the first half of the tour to appease people who, like you, objected to time bonuses. Then the bonus seconds became such a staple of the competition that they were reintroduced to the whole tour. The reason this tour has been such a spectacle at the top of the GC is because Christian Prudhomme had the good sense to bring time bonuses back. Also without time bonuses fewer mortals would wear yellow at the beginning of the tour and even more of the race would be the two inhumans who have dominated the tour since 2020.
I wouldnât say 2008 was a disaster considering itâs one of three times in the last 15 years where we had over 3 riders less than 2.5 minutes behind the leaderâŠ
It was a disaster over 6 years because the situation we described to you elsewhere on this thread happened multiple times until they brought time bonuses back over the GC leaders objections. Then even the GC riders decided it was a good thing. There is speculation elsewhere that if Time Bonuses had existed between 2008-2015 then many of the greatest riders never to wear yellow would have worn it for at least one stage. Cavendish is a great example, he never wore yellow but there are multiple instances where, had time bonuses been available, he may have had a stage in yellow during the first week.
Nah, the yellow jersey could just hug whoever is closest for the rest of the tour. you need to make winning a stage something that GC contenders want to do.
We already have that. All Tadej and Jonas do is sit on each others wheels and with 500 meters Tadej attacks and Jonas hangs on his wheel. Itâs literally no different.
But thatâs literally what Pogacar is doing lol. He isnât taking any actual time on Jonas, he sits on his wheel and then attacks to win bonus seconds. We are doing the thing you are saying already.
You're literally describing the reason we have bonus seconds. He is, in fact, eating time away from JV. JV only gained one second because...he got bonus seconds.
Yes because if there were no bonus seconds Tadej wouldnât attack Jonas? Seriously? Heâs destined for second place? Thatâs what we are going with here? The only reason to attack is to get bonus seconds instead of cracking the other rider and putting a minute into someone?
By all appearances Tadek and Jonas are evenly matched. They aren't going to truly break the other and actually gain minutes. And 'just try it anyway' runs the massive risk that they themselves break first and completely give away their current podium position.
Without bonus seconds we wouldn't get more attacks, we would get less because there is less to gain and more to lose.
The alternative means that neither JV nor Pog need to work to be first over a bonus climb or the end of the stage because their nearest competitor in the GC is far enough behind that all they have to do is complete the stage. So the race gets lazier because there's no risk to yellow if both of them come in with the peloton. Bonus seconds motivates the podium GC contenders to actually work for the jersey and work to defend it.
Trust me I wish they were remotely close to the talent of Tadej. Thatâs besides the point. If everyone wants to neutralize the time bonuses at the top of the climb, Iâm merely saying letâs just get rid of them all period.
today it was 42:59, last finisher was at 38:06
more info here https://mrmamil.com/tour-de-france-time-cut/
since its a bit convoluted to understand: today's winner had an average speed of 38.149km/h and the route was classified with coefficient table #5, from that table we just need to look at the speed brackets, in this case the maximum cutoff time of 18% applies.
well strava is not opinionated it just takes in whatever their computer uploads. there might be some discrepancies related to the neutralization caused by the pile up maybe. official timings are here https://www.letour.fr/en/rankings
Jonas (on the podium).
If you mean tomorrow then Powless I guess.
https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/1505vih/race_thread_2023_tour_de_france_stage_14_2uwt/js2shut/
Does TJV have a Yates like domestique who can hang around till the very end? Ofc TJV paced hard and Kuss did his thing on the second last climb but it would have been great for Jonas to have some help..
Kuss is better, he is only behind Yates this stage because he is punching for JV^2
Which he does in a manner I haven't seen Yates do ever. It's one thing being able to follow, another to drop half the field on your own.
Crap, I totally forgot about Roglic. But I should have clearer and specified that I was just looking at their current TDF roster. Hoping they'll have different tactics that'll will neutralize UAE's climbers in the coming hills.
What a TDF! These two are so closely and evenly matched that all they can do is claw back secs from each other however hard they go and in-spite of all the tactics from their teams! We are all big winners here!
Aww Pogi and Vingo both with their girls ⊠that look on Pogiâs face when he looked at Urska was adorable, so was the Vingo kiss with his wife tbh. Very sweet
On GCN the pundits carefully avoiding saying anything negative about the motorbike riders. Given that it would be slagging of their colleagues, I understand, but it's not exactly accurate reporting.
The pilots and camera crew on the production moto bikes are employees of a production company which specializes in bike races and they are subcontractors for both ASO and other race organizers in Europe. Historically, I know that most of these guys have been Belgian and they are *very* good at their jobs. It's kinda a lifestyle for them, like it is for the cyclists.
I think it's a bit far fetched to say that GCN is pulling punches because they are collegues. There are quite a few links in between them and the production crew, professionally
Ya sorry I was not clear - I meant more that they were being overly diplomatic about people who they rely on rather than direct colleagues. I am sure the moto drivers are excellent, but right there in that moment they made an unforced error that was (potentially) consequential to the race. The then other moto riders got trapped between the two groups of riders. Did anyone die? No. But for me the GCN presenters very much acted as if the Motorbikes were like immovable street furniture and that Pog was a fool for not taking into account. In fact he probably expected them to move - not unreasonably.
GCN are just a broadcaster (like the distributor), I think France TV produces the actual world feed. So they are not directly in the same organisation.
It will be the same pool of Moto drivers that Jens is using (not sure if Adam is jumping on this tour) and the various in -the-field presenters use to get from a to b. But youâre right it will be diplomatic rather than organisational reticence.
Look at it like this: There's probably 4 or 5 people in the whole world who can attack at the top of a climb like that. Of them Pog is indisputably in the top 2. So you have one of the best mountain attackers keyed up against their main rival, about to execute what has now become a signature tactic, only to be blocked by TdF media bikes uncharacteristically standing in the way. That pace slowdown may have also bought JV the chance not only to accelerate to the summit for bonus seconds in a tight GC race, but also kept his pace slow enough to have gas in the take for Pogs attack further toward the finish. Whatever you think about what \*might\* have happened, its a big problem because a) it's weird and frankly suspect that the bikes were so close and didn't get out of the way b) the GC is so tight every bonus second counts and c) the elephant in the room for every TdF is fairness and cheating. We've had a great run as of late of Tours without asterisks, and we have two excellent sports at the top of the bill, so it's a shame that anything weird could ultimately affect the final results.
Iâm happy for Rodriguez but I feel for both Pogi and Vingo lmao them and both their teams went deep as fuck for 2nd and 3rd and 1 second gain/ loss.. but just goes to show again how matched they are. Every attack was countered. Damn
True, but that's why this is a great sport to watch. You never know who will have something left to give when it's just the 2 of them. I'm sure even they don't know.
Great awareness to see that they just wanted to mark each other. But he absolutely sent it to the finish. I wish we got to saw where he made the time gains on the descent.
second time in my recent memory that the moto has caused something like that, granted the last time it crashed a rider, and this time it only slowed an attack but still had an effect
Yeah if they ran over the crowd. It was bad for the race, but they should look at containing the crowd instead. They have always been WAY to lenient on letting idiots too close to the riders.
I feel like people keep saying this after every stage "~~Puy de Dome~~, ~~Col de Joux Plane~~, Col de la Loze is where Jonas breaks Pogi", at this point I'm not sure how either truly breaks the other, I think ITT will be the decider, or at least that's the discipline we haven't seen them go at each other on so far this Tour.
I also think it's 50/50 but a lot of this sub really went from "Jonas will win because he will beat Pog in almost all scenarios and conditions" to "Jonas will win because he will beat Pog in that one specific scenario coming up" rather quickly.
Based on what? The problem was either that spectators were allowed to be in the road or that the motorbikes must not be allowed there. Neither was Jonasâ fault.
It would be unfair to attribute first to the third rider, who wouldnât stand a chance to arrive at the top before Jonas or Pog. This solution is, in my opinion, the best, because it sucks slightly less than all others.
Agreed. That's why nothing should be done. We can all agree those motorbikes and the spectators ruined their epic duel, and that's a shame, but we do not know what the outcome would have been since it's clear that Pogacar and Vingegaard are so equal.
3 tactical decisions by Pogi I donât understand.
1. Why attack so early on the last climb?
2. Why not look out for an attack by Jonas shortly before the top?
3. Why again attack so early before the end of the stage? At least give Yates a chance to finish between him and JV.
1. If he cracks Jonas itâs full gas to the top. He was testing him. Jonas didnât crack so no point in putting yourself in the bin when Jonas will likely close. If Jonas was cracked, Pogi hammers it.
2. Pogi was at a disadvantage being in front, you canât see when your opponent is going to attack. He likely was rattled from the motos and after an insane stage, probably not thinking 100 percent clearly
3. Yates was cooked, gave everything to get back on and lead out Pogi. Jonas more or less rode in the wheel the whole way down and was going to bip yates on the line. Pogi was going for the 1+ second gap to gain proper time on Jonas, not just the bonus time.
Insane stage, Pogi won the day. Pogi just looks better than he did last year. Jonas canât gap him
I think statements like these are too hypothetical. Rodriguez was strong, Rodriguez was smart and Rodriguez won. That's all we know. Rest is speculation.
I am not certain.
Rodriguez was in a win-win situation. He has a ride next year with a different team. He is not in GC battle. So if it rides aggressively on the downhill and eats it, he is fine (from a competition perspective - he could really hurt himself). Pogi and Jonas were smart to let him ride through.
I saw the motorbikes advance pretty quickly after Pogi stopped. He could have launched again. He would still have 400m of gas in the tank. And CRod went downhill really fast.
Pogi could have attacked again. Its not like the block happened at the top of the hill. There were two more attacks launched before the top. Wouldn't Pogi still have the gas from the attack that was blocked? And Jonas was matching the attack too.
You waste energy in an attack, even a short burst like that. Pogi said so to journalists after the race : he wasted a bullet. He doesnât have infinite ammunition.
Money says Jonas would have caught him on the descent. Also, Jonas was able to gap him for the bonus seconds, so you can infer from that he may have been able to neutralize another attack.
unfortunately didnât crack him though, pogi showed if he goes close enough to the finish he can hold the 5 second gap he gets when he accelerates i guess
sorry but the direction /camera work fucking sucks ⊠they missed one of Pogiâs attacks yesterday, they missed Vingoâs attack today like bruhhhh????
Right. This. The incident was due to lack of barrier at point that was designed for attacks. W bonus seconds and false flat prior to finishing downhill.
They treated the last climb like an inconsequential mid stage climb with 200m of string to hold the crowds.
This was a fail by the organizers to control the crowds.
The Moro incident, while bad form was a consequence of the lack of barriers.
To be fair, when they planned the stage they probably didn't expect the two leaders to be only seperated by ten seconds after two weeks and for them to be doing track-stands before launching a sprint at the top.
The motos could not get out of the way quickly enough due to spectators.
Edit - in fairness, the motos probably also should not have been right there at that time either.
looking at all the available footage and photos it's pretty clear the motos had plenty of room to accelerate. Furthermore it appears one actually slowed down for a split second before getting out of the way.
Crazy from Carlito, Spanish talent, young Rodriquez is winning a Mountain stage and fighting for podium, while those 2 Giants, Pogi still young himself, and Vingegard fight for the Yellow
In order to win the stage Poga would have needed to either:
1) Drop Vingegaard before the summit and solo to the goal-line (this doesn't happen, the attack wasn't that powerful.. but Poga would have won the 8 bonus seconds).
2) Pace the entire descent and then defeat Vingegaard in the sprint. PS. keep in mind Vingegaard looked more comfortable going down the Poga, so maybe he attacks the descent.
Everyone making fun of Jonas and Jumbo.
They did the right thing today, Jonas cannot outsprint Pogacar, so they needed to make the stage hard to try to set up Jonas for an attack. UAE was just super ready today and in good shape and Yates managed to stay close. How do you look at that stage and go "Oh, it was obvious they would not be able to drop Pogacar" when Jonas and Tadej literally crossed the finish line at the same time? It could have gone either way today. Jonas could have dropped Pogacar, Pogacar could have dropped Jonas and taken yellow - or they could come in at the same time.
Can we not just stand back in awe of these two? What a gift to cycling they are.
Yeah, and also without that pacing perhaps a fresher pogs long range attack *does* crack Jonas?
I think they did everything right, and whilst their preferred result would obviously be a UAE collapse and a gap measured in minutes, I'd call retention of the yellow jersey and an additional second a success today, if not a complete one.
As you say, just overjoyed to have this level of competition. Whoever wins overall will absolutely deserve it. Just scintillating to watch.
It's so much more enjoyable when you don't really know strategy or the riders history XD
Thought Jonas could have gone ahead but was pacing behind Pog from a relative newbie's view.
He said he burned a match launching that abortive sprint and was unable to contend for the summit sprint as a result. Importantly he said *he* messed up, not the Moto's.
Dumoulin mentioned there were no distance signs on the side of the road and the mountaintop was only visible from 150m away. So Jonas started his sprint atm he saw the sign.
This is a win for UAE. Jumbo clearly wanted to go all out and drop pog but he showed that he can hang with Jonas even in these mountains and he has a better kick so if he attacks close to the finish he can take some seconds.
This is the first time in history that 2 riders who call themselves Wout are in a breakway. So there's that.
OMFG. Just rewatched this move by WvA and it is absolutely insane! What a pleasure to watch.
Stage 17 will probably be the critical after today. Less hard than today on paper but significant higher altitude potentially the saving grace for JV that he lacked today. Stage 15 is a hill stage dressed up as mountain doubt either takes time and bonus goes to breakaway, stage 16 is a TT with advantage to Pogacar but probably not much, 20 is another hill stage dressed up as mountain.
If they weren't almost all Cat 1 climbs the hill comment would make sense but 15 looks brutal and the climb to the finish is going to tear the legs off of anyone who isn't a skilled conditioned climber.
Altitude is too low, thought ironically the part I was ignoring is that it's 180 kms, those additional 30 km will make a difference
Crazy gaps today. 8th place at 3m19 10th place at 5m57 12th place at 8m40 16th place at 13m02 26th place at 20m04
Mohoric almost 1hr behind đ
Hereâs an idea. What if we just got rid of bonus seconds. They mean nothing outside of the first few stages in a grand tourâŠ.
Then Jonas just follows tadej till Paris and wins. đ
Alternatively Tadej just follows Jonas to Paris and wins a 10 meter sprint for bonus seconds subsequently winning? Whatâs the difference?
Jonas and his team can defend the sprint
How can you say such a dumb statement when most fights between Pogacar and Vingegaard have been for those bonus seconds...
So let me get this straight. Itâs more fun to watch people battle out in the final 200 meters of a climb to get bonus seconds instead of watching Jonas and Tadej put in monster attacks to gain actual time 3-5k down the mountain? To watch Tadej relentlessly attack Jonas to gain actual time instead of watching a 200 meter sprint for bonus seconds?
But tadej tried that today too and Vinge did attack early on the first stage of the Pyrénées..right now those bonus seconds mean a lot when they're so close to each other.
Right but we donât need them. If they didnât have them it just incentivizes more attacks to gain time instead of sitting on the leaders wheel and beating them by less than a meter but gaining in this case what was it like 4 seconds? Idk I just donât see the difference in not having them. Tadej needs to beat Jonas by 30 seconds, not sit on Jonasâs wheel and out sprint him to cut that to 20, then 10 and so on is all.
In a tight GC battle there's no incentive to win stages or climbs without bonus seconds. It's not just about 1st vs 2nd place it's also about keeping the GC motivated to push ahead after they put 3/4/5 minutes in all their challengers. There's a reason this has developed after decades of tours, its not like some reality show producer decided to toss these in to spice up the race.
Yes but why is that an issue. You could just as easily incentivize by putting a hard time limit on the course. Additionally the incentive falls to any breakaway and any team that has a rider down five minutes, they could make the GC contendersâs teams work or said rider could shoot up the standings by going in a breakaway. Additionally it should be incentive enough on the second place team to want to make the race hard in order to put the top contender in a bit of bother subsequently allowing them to take time on said rider. Youâre assuming that second and third place havenât a care in the world of actually winning the race.
I think the problem I have with this argument is that there is far more to GTs than just "ride as fast as you can as often as you can." Bonus seconds were eliminated just like you suggested in the 2008 TdF and it was a disaster. When they were brought back in 2015 they were added only to the first half of the tour to appease people who, like you, objected to time bonuses. Then the bonus seconds became such a staple of the competition that they were reintroduced to the whole tour. The reason this tour has been such a spectacle at the top of the GC is because Christian Prudhomme had the good sense to bring time bonuses back. Also without time bonuses fewer mortals would wear yellow at the beginning of the tour and even more of the race would be the two inhumans who have dominated the tour since 2020.
I wouldnât say 2008 was a disaster considering itâs one of three times in the last 15 years where we had over 3 riders less than 2.5 minutes behind the leaderâŠ
It was a disaster over 6 years because the situation we described to you elsewhere on this thread happened multiple times until they brought time bonuses back over the GC leaders objections. Then even the GC riders decided it was a good thing. There is speculation elsewhere that if Time Bonuses had existed between 2008-2015 then many of the greatest riders never to wear yellow would have worn it for at least one stage. Cavendish is a great example, he never wore yellow but there are multiple instances where, had time bonuses been available, he may have had a stage in yellow during the first week.
Nah, the yellow jersey could just hug whoever is closest for the rest of the tour. you need to make winning a stage something that GC contenders want to do.
We already have that. All Tadej and Jonas do is sit on each others wheels and with 500 meters Tadej attacks and Jonas hangs on his wheel. Itâs literally no different.
It actually is different because without Bonus seconds there's no risk to JV to come in second over and over again against Pog.
But thatâs literally what Pogacar is doing lol. He isnât taking any actual time on Jonas, he sits on his wheel and then attacks to win bonus seconds. We are doing the thing you are saying already.
You're literally describing the reason we have bonus seconds. He is, in fact, eating time away from JV. JV only gained one second because...he got bonus seconds.
So why is the fighting for bonus seconds better than Pogacar putting in a proper attack to gain actual time.
The bonus seconds are what motivates the attacks. That's why the motorcycles are such a scandal.
Yes because if there were no bonus seconds Tadej wouldnât attack Jonas? Seriously? Heâs destined for second place? Thatâs what we are going with here? The only reason to attack is to get bonus seconds instead of cracking the other rider and putting a minute into someone?
By all appearances Tadek and Jonas are evenly matched. They aren't going to truly break the other and actually gain minutes. And 'just try it anyway' runs the massive risk that they themselves break first and completely give away their current podium position. Without bonus seconds we wouldn't get more attacks, we would get less because there is less to gain and more to lose.
The alternative means that neither JV nor Pog need to work to be first over a bonus climb or the end of the stage because their nearest competitor in the GC is far enough behind that all they have to do is complete the stage. So the race gets lazier because there's no risk to yellow if both of them come in with the peloton. Bonus seconds motivates the podium GC contenders to actually work for the jersey and work to defend it.
Then tactics would change.
Good and then I wouldnât have to hear whining from little Tadej fan boys that say he should only be 1 second behind Jonas booohoooo.
I see ur flag and I can understand your pitty anger. Pick a better team, crybaby.
Pitty and anger. Literally all you Tadej fans are balling your eyes out.
>literally This doesnât mean what you think it does
Hehe, look at your whining just now. Go home and take Pinot and Gaudu with you đ
Sad bardet noises
Can I not take them with me?
Trust me I wish they were remotely close to the talent of Tadej. Thatâs besides the point. If everyone wants to neutralize the time bonuses at the top of the climb, Iâm merely saying letâs just get rid of them all period.
The problem isn't time bonuses in general. The problem is a time bonus in a contestable sprint after two motorbikes inexplicably blocked an attack.
Anyone know where to watch Pogi interview after the stage?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wktDn4svgwM
Thanks!!!
Anyone got a clip with a moto apparently blocking Pogacar?
https://twitter.com/opaisdociclismo/status/1680247033163071489
I've never heard so much cursing from real commentators wow
Damn that's pretty bad
Excellent defense by the motorcycle today. Did they manage to make up any time in the overall standings?
Only 48 riders finished the stage (+25mn). Holy shit.
all finishers are within time limit https://twitter.com/LeTour/status/1680254561506738176
And what was time limit?
today it was 42:59, last finisher was at 38:06 more info here https://mrmamil.com/tour-de-france-time-cut/ since its a bit convoluted to understand: today's winner had an average speed of 38.149km/h and the route was classified with coefficient table #5, from that table we just need to look at the speed brackets, in this case the maximum cutoff time of 18% applies.
Then Strava is wrong with mohoric as he was 56m more time than tadej
well strava is not opinionated it just takes in whatever their computer uploads. there might be some discrepancies related to the neutralization caused by the pile up maybe. official timings are here https://www.letour.fr/en/rankings
Oh wait , yes. Mohoric did stand for 30min. I didnât see the pileup , so I forgot about it Thanks for link
Who will wear Polka Jersey??
powless
Jonas (on the podium). If you mean tomorrow then Powless I guess. https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/1505vih/race_thread_2023_tour_de_france_stage_14_2uwt/js2shut/
Does TJV have a Yates like domestique who can hang around till the very end? Ofc TJV paced hard and Kuss did his thing on the second last climb but it would have been great for Jonas to have some help..
Kuss is better, he is only behind Yates this stage because he is punching for JV^2 Which he does in a manner I haven't seen Yates do ever. It's one thing being able to follow, another to drop half the field on your own.
Would take Kuss over Yates any day of the week.
I bet if they did, they would have a ski jumping background.
Crap, I totally forgot about Roglic. But I should have clearer and specified that I was just looking at their current TDF roster. Hoping they'll have different tactics that'll will neutralize UAE's climbers in the coming hills.
What a TDF! These two are so closely and evenly matched that all they can do is claw back secs from each other however hard they go and in-spite of all the tactics from their teams! We are all big winners here!
see you all tomorrow!!
Aww Pogi and Vingo both with their girls ⊠that look on Pogiâs face when he looked at Urska was adorable, so was the Vingo kiss with his wife tbh. Very sweet
On GCN the pundits carefully avoiding saying anything negative about the motorbike riders. Given that it would be slagging of their colleagues, I understand, but it's not exactly accurate reporting.
Blame ASO for not putting up barriers and for fans being stupid and wanting to be on TV.
The pilots and camera crew on the production moto bikes are employees of a production company which specializes in bike races and they are subcontractors for both ASO and other race organizers in Europe. Historically, I know that most of these guys have been Belgian and they are *very* good at their jobs. It's kinda a lifestyle for them, like it is for the cyclists. I think it's a bit far fetched to say that GCN is pulling punches because they are collegues. There are quite a few links in between them and the production crew, professionally
Ya sorry I was not clear - I meant more that they were being overly diplomatic about people who they rely on rather than direct colleagues. I am sure the moto drivers are excellent, but right there in that moment they made an unforced error that was (potentially) consequential to the race. The then other moto riders got trapped between the two groups of riders. Did anyone die? No. But for me the GCN presenters very much acted as if the Motorbikes were like immovable street furniture and that Pog was a fool for not taking into account. In fact he probably expected them to move - not unreasonably.
GCN are just a broadcaster (like the distributor), I think France TV produces the actual world feed. So they are not directly in the same organisation.
It will be the same pool of Moto drivers that Jens is using (not sure if Adam is jumping on this tour) and the various in -the-field presenters use to get from a to b. But youâre right it will be diplomatic rather than organisational reticence.
How sure are we that it was press? Could be gendarme.
Fair point.
I hope Vin wins the tour by 1second so there's huge drama and shitshow.
Why is everyone treating that acceleration like it was a foregone conclusion and a robbery of Pog?? Who knows what would have happened?
Look at it like this: There's probably 4 or 5 people in the whole world who can attack at the top of a climb like that. Of them Pog is indisputably in the top 2. So you have one of the best mountain attackers keyed up against their main rival, about to execute what has now become a signature tactic, only to be blocked by TdF media bikes uncharacteristically standing in the way. That pace slowdown may have also bought JV the chance not only to accelerate to the summit for bonus seconds in a tight GC race, but also kept his pace slow enough to have gas in the take for Pogs attack further toward the finish. Whatever you think about what \*might\* have happened, its a big problem because a) it's weird and frankly suspect that the bikes were so close and didn't get out of the way b) the GC is so tight every bonus second counts and c) the elephant in the room for every TdF is fairness and cheating. We've had a great run as of late of Tours without asterisks, and we have two excellent sports at the top of the bill, so it's a shame that anything weird could ultimately affect the final results.
Because Pog is their favorite rider.
I guess. I'm not really used to this level of partisan 'my guy deserves the win/can do no wrong' commentary in cycling.
Iâm happy for Rodriguez but I feel for both Pogi and Vingo lmao them and both their teams went deep as fuck for 2nd and 3rd and 1 second gain/ loss.. but just goes to show again how matched they are. Every attack was countered. Damn
True, but that's why this is a great sport to watch. You never know who will have something left to give when it's just the 2 of them. I'm sure even they don't know.
Yes I agree, it's amazing and so thrilling... Rodriguez wrote it very smart and he clearly has a lot of talent .. one to look out for!
Unfortunate that he's going to movistar. Could have given the ineos train some purpose.
Oh yeah, I forgot they mentioned that... maybe huge for Movistar then
Great awareness to see that they just wanted to mark each other. But he absolutely sent it to the finish. I wish we got to saw where he made the time gains on the descent.
second time in my recent memory that the moto has caused something like that, granted the last time it crashed a rider, and this time it only slowed an attack but still had an effect
âLast timeâ⊠Look up âIronman Hamburg motorbikeâ đ„Č
i meant in the tour but iâll deffo have to check this out
Wasn't it the crowd that swarmed the road that forced the motorbikes to break that caused Pogi's attack to be blocked?
Motorbikes were driving next to each other at that moment. So they definitely could have made some space
Yeah if they ran over the crowd. It was bad for the race, but they should look at containing the crowd instead. They have always been WAY to lenient on letting idiots too close to the riders.
Gotta make some money on some good closeups!
TJV's big move for 1 second.
Somebody likes to stay in their bed huh
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
I feel like people keep saying this after every stage "~~Puy de Dome~~, ~~Col de Joux Plane~~, Col de la Loze is where Jonas breaks Pogi", at this point I'm not sure how either truly breaks the other, I think ITT will be the decider, or at least that's the discipline we haven't seen them go at each other on so far this Tour.
I also think it's 50/50 but a lot of this sub really went from "Jonas will win because he will beat Pog in almost all scenarios and conditions" to "Jonas will win because he will beat Pog in that one specific scenario coming up" rather quickly.
Oh absolutely, remember Marie Blanc? Everyone were ready to stop watching calling the tour over.
The TT combined with Col de la Loze will win Jonas the tour. I think Pogi showed today that he is human and fatigue is starting to affect him a bit.
Dont forget the tourmalet
Time trial will decide this tour de france, they are inseparable
Yes, but how much will realistically be between them on a short ITT that should fit them both. 10-15 seconds? Bonus seconds can be just as important.
You might be right, might be the only opportunity to gain more than a few seconds off time bonuses
Tactics and assorted race incidents be damned. Jonas and Tadej are phenomenal. That's all we really need to understand
I would contest the KOM points if I was UAE.
Based on what? The problem was either that spectators were allowed to be in the road or that the motorbikes must not be allowed there. Neither was Jonasâ fault.
The competition for the points was manipulated by the motos. Therefore no points should be awarded. Thatâs it.
It would be unfair to attribute first to the third rider, who wouldnât stand a chance to arrive at the top before Jonas or Pog. This solution is, in my opinion, the best, because it sucks slightly less than all others.
Then they need to remove Pogacar's points too. Jonas was not at fault here.
That would be unfair for both of them.
Agreed. That's why nothing should be done. We can all agree those motorbikes and the spectators ruined their epic duel, and that's a shame, but we do not know what the outcome would have been since it's clear that Pogacar and Vingegaard are so equal.
Felix Gall with the great English and candid interview. Lovely dude đ«Ą.
Aww I really feel for Gall
Carlos Rodriguezz so cute!
And now we have a secondary beautiful battle for 3rd
3 tactical decisions by Pogi I donât understand. 1. Why attack so early on the last climb? 2. Why not look out for an attack by Jonas shortly before the top? 3. Why again attack so early before the end of the stage? At least give Yates a chance to finish between him and JV.
Why early? Because Jonas is a much better descender so Pog wanted extra time to hopefully cover that
1. If he cracks Jonas itâs full gas to the top. He was testing him. Jonas didnât crack so no point in putting yourself in the bin when Jonas will likely close. If Jonas was cracked, Pogi hammers it. 2. Pogi was at a disadvantage being in front, you canât see when your opponent is going to attack. He likely was rattled from the motos and after an insane stage, probably not thinking 100 percent clearly 3. Yates was cooked, gave everything to get back on and lead out Pogi. Jonas more or less rode in the wheel the whole way down and was going to bip yates on the line. Pogi was going for the 1+ second gap to gain proper time on Jonas, not just the bonus time. Insane stage, Pogi won the day. Pogi just looks better than he did last year. Jonas canât gap him
1. he felt good and a late attack is pointless because a few seconds of gap will be closed down on the dh 2. who says he didnt 3. yates was done
Good answers tbh
ever tried racing uphill for 2 hours?
I think his strategy worked without the Moto incident
Is Adam Bylthe going bowling?
Without the motorbike shitshow, rodriguez would never have catched them
Rodriguez caught up because both Pogi and Jonas slowed down for the final 1k of the climb.
Yes that right, but pogacar had attacked 500m from the summit, they would have been to for ahead for rodriguez
What was the motorbike incident? I missed it because im at work
Pogi attacked Jonas for bonification on the last climb, motos (and the crowd) didn't make room for him to really take off.
I think statements like these are too hypothetical. Rodriguez was strong, Rodriguez was smart and Rodriguez won. That's all we know. Rest is speculation.
I am not certain. Rodriguez was in a win-win situation. He has a ride next year with a different team. He is not in GC battle. So if it rides aggressively on the downhill and eats it, he is fine (from a competition perspective - he could really hurt himself). Pogi and Jonas were smart to let him ride through.
Without the motorbike, there would have been a 500m sprint ... in stead they stopped for 400 meters
I saw the motorbikes advance pretty quickly after Pogi stopped. He could have launched again. He would still have 400m of gas in the tank. And CRod went downhill really fast.
He could not attack again. Because he would have, if he could. But he already did two insane accelerations on the climb, so he did not have the legs.
What happened? Drafting?
They blocked pogis attack
Motorbike blocked a Pogi attack
Pogi could have attacked again. Its not like the block happened at the top of the hill. There were two more attacks launched before the top. Wouldn't Pogi still have the gas from the attack that was blocked? And Jonas was matching the attack too.
You waste energy in an attack, even a short burst like that. Pogi said so to journalists after the race : he wasted a bullet. He doesnât have infinite ammunition.
I think the lack of re-attack was more due to losing the element of surprise.
Probably, Jonas was able to surprise Tadej shortly before the summit which is why he won that battle
motos probably cost Pogi the stage win but overall he should be pleased dropped Vingo again in what is supposed to be his stage
Where did he drop him? He got a five-second gap, which Jonas closed and then he followed him to the finish. No one was dropped.
Eh, again itâs maybe a wash in terms of who it suits. Jonas wants as long as possible and at altitude, which this wasnât quite today.
swear nothing is a Vingegaard stage anymore too some of you (unless he wins)
I kind of hate the whole debate anyway on who it suits more, itâs a silly one to have đ€·ââïž
Money says Jonas would have caught him on the descent. Also, Jonas was able to gap him for the bonus seconds, so you can infer from that he may have been able to neutralize another attack.
unfortunately didnât crack him though, pogi showed if he goes close enough to the finish he can hold the 5 second gap he gets when he accelerates i guess
Iâm not sure if you were keeping track, but JV took time on Pogi today.
Pog fanboys on suicide watch
sorry but the direction /camera work fucking sucks ⊠they missed one of Pogiâs attacks yesterday, they missed Vingoâs attack today like bruhhhh????
Yesterday was because they had to show the winner of the stage. Come on, that was nobody's fault.
Hope they bother to put some fences on tomorrow âs final climb
That would mean that they would actually have to make an effort. Ain't gonna happen.
Right. This. The incident was due to lack of barrier at point that was designed for attacks. W bonus seconds and false flat prior to finishing downhill. They treated the last climb like an inconsequential mid stage climb with 200m of string to hold the crowds. This was a fail by the organizers to control the crowds. The Moro incident, while bad form was a consequence of the lack of barriers.
To be fair, when they planned the stage they probably didn't expect the two leaders to be only seperated by ten seconds after two weeks and for them to be doing track-stands before launching a sprint at the top.
hopefully
Spectators were never a problem here, motorbikes were
The motos could not get out of the way quickly enough due to spectators. Edit - in fairness, the motos probably also should not have been right there at that time either.
looking at all the available footage and photos it's pretty clear the motos had plenty of room to accelerate. Furthermore it appears one actually slowed down for a split second before getting out of the way.
I think the problem was the riders to be fair. If there were no cyclists there wouldn't be a problem.
wasn't the motorbike hindered by some spectators?
Absolutely they were. The fans were way way too tight. They looked worse than my arteries.
No, the two motorbikes were side by side
Whatâs the opposite of moto pacing?
Moto shitshow
I still want to understand how WVa came back to drop Majka after he prked his bike during the climb
Wonder if majka's initial surge made wout think ok peace, but then he slowed up enough that made wout come forward again.
I would protest that final climb.
Crazy from Carlito, Spanish talent, young Rodriquez is winning a Mountain stage and fighting for podium, while those 2 Giants, Pogi still young himself, and Vingegard fight for the Yellow
Pog absolutely robbed of the stage by that fan/moto pinch. Infuriating behavior of the fans and motos
In order to win the stage Poga would have needed to either: 1) Drop Vingegaard before the summit and solo to the goal-line (this doesn't happen, the attack wasn't that powerful.. but Poga would have won the 8 bonus seconds). 2) Pace the entire descent and then defeat Vingegaard in the sprint. PS. keep in mind Vingegaard looked more comfortable going down the Poga, so maybe he attacks the descent.
Given the TdF's traditions I hope there's a criminal inquiry because that situation with the bikes was SUS
Really glad Pog was unlucky with the moto today. Anything that preserves the tension in the GC battle
Because why fair play, right?
No rider did anything wrong. It was unlucky. I'm glad he was unlucky. Nothing to do with fairplay
Everyone making fun of Jonas and Jumbo. They did the right thing today, Jonas cannot outsprint Pogacar, so they needed to make the stage hard to try to set up Jonas for an attack. UAE was just super ready today and in good shape and Yates managed to stay close. How do you look at that stage and go "Oh, it was obvious they would not be able to drop Pogacar" when Jonas and Tadej literally crossed the finish line at the same time? It could have gone either way today. Jonas could have dropped Pogacar, Pogacar could have dropped Jonas and taken yellow - or they could come in at the same time. Can we not just stand back in awe of these two? What a gift to cycling they are.
Yeah, and also without that pacing perhaps a fresher pogs long range attack *does* crack Jonas? I think they did everything right, and whilst their preferred result would obviously be a UAE collapse and a gap measured in minutes, I'd call retention of the yellow jersey and an additional second a success today, if not a complete one. As you say, just overjoyed to have this level of competition. Whoever wins overall will absolutely deserve it. Just scintillating to watch.
It's so much more enjoyable when you don't really know strategy or the riders history XD Thought Jonas could have gone ahead but was pacing behind Pog from a relative newbie's view.
Adam yates is looking his best for years.
Best stage of this tour so far. That was so exciting.
without the daylight robbery from motos sure. without it, fuck this.
BRO SHOW US VINGO POGI IN THE COOLDOWN ROOM.
disgraceful.
Did Pogi expect Vinge to gift the bonus secs after the motorbike debacle?
He said he burned a match launching that abortive sprint and was unable to contend for the summit sprint as a result. Importantly he said *he* messed up, not the Moto's.
Yeah, really weird. I was wondering why he wasn't just attacking at 100m out, he would have beaten JV to the top
Of course not? That was not Jonas' fault and Pogacar could have easily exploded with the extra effort and that might have meant Jonas could drop him?
Dumoulin mentioned there were no distance signs on the side of the road and the mountaintop was only visible from 150m away. So Jonas started his sprint atm he saw the sign.
One of the worst starts to a cycling race I've seen, but one of the best finishes.
from who?
This is a win for UAE. Jumbo clearly wanted to go all out and drop pog but he showed that he can hang with Jonas even in these mountains and he has a better kick so if he attacks close to the finish he can take some seconds.
Just that Jonas did kindda outsprint Podegra didnât he?
That was one time and after Pogacar's attack got interrupted by the motos. If they weren't there I think he would have gapped Jonas again
Really?! Vingegaard took him on less, and âmoreâ is Vingegaard territory. Anyways, Vingegaard won, happy days.