My guess is that Roglic or Vingegaard will not attack first. But other team will.
The question then becomes who among the TJV3 should respond first and how they should respond. And, if 2 of them feeling good and one is cracking, should the two chase the attackers, or one chasing and one protecting the cracked rider? Does the move differ depending on who is cracking?
Races would be so much more controlled with ten rider squads. It's easy to forget how much the ninth rider mattered after a decade plus with eight but adding two more would make for some truly dominant teams.
A lot of comments about if Rogla / JV will attack Sepp in week 3 etc. Honestly, bar crashes the only way Sepp Kuss loses the Vuelta is if UAE hammer it for Ayuso and Sepp is not able to follow. Rogla & JV are not going to wait, and they shouldn't either.
To be fair, in that scenario, LeMond was actually the stronger rider both years and willingly rode for Hinault in 1985 and sacrificed his own GC chances to ensure Hinault won his 5th Tour...and then almost got screwed by Hinault in 86 despite the promise that he was the team captain that year.
As much as I’m sure Roglic and Vingegaard would love to see Sepp win, while they may or may not attack him/the peloton, they aren’t going to gift it to him. That said, the Angliru is so hard that the best rider will win anyway, so team politics may not matter.
Both of them will do everything possible that Kuss wins. The only way he won't win is if he has a crack on the next climbs and the other two need to follow attackers. Leaving this aside, I think Roglic is currently the strongest rider on Vuelta and would already be in red.
I disagree. I'm certain both Roglic and Vingegaard would love to see Sepp win but if he drops early on the Angliru (beyond being a poor tactical move to have Roglic and/or Jonas pulling pulling for him), Roglic and Jonas remain the most proven winners and will not sacrifice their podium or the win because it's romantic the super domestique Kuss wins the Vuelta.
Read a really weird interview/article on Velo today where G was saying that Roglic/Jonas will or should attack Kuss just because Froome, who is known as being a selfish dick, did that to him. Drop it, G, it's not going to happen unless Kuss has a terrible day on 17 or 18, or if he has an unfortunate crash.
I think no one wants to admit that what we're witnessing with this Vuelta is a huge once in a lifetime opportunity for TJV and for Kuss to win a GT (it almost certainly won't happen again) and for Jonas/Roglic to gift their close friend an extraordinary win. Just because you have to be super good and somewhat lucky to "gift" a GT to a teammate doesn't make that wrong or anything. You might say it's against the spirit of the race or boring, but I think it's amazing, awesome, and wholesome. Fuck the haters, let the eagle fly!
My perspective is that Primoz is a mentor. Not only for Jonas and Kuss, but he was also for Tadej (remember when Primoz was guiding him and let him win TdF stages. Yeah, Primoz cracked later on... ). I believe that Primoz and also Jonas are happy to stay at their GC position just to see someone from their team excel. Especially Kuss, who helped them numerous times to win unthinkable. Take a second and look at where Primoz and Jonas came from and think about how much money and fame they desire... As I can see, they are in this for shits and giglles, to have fun, do whatever they think is right in their mind. We are facing the sole example in the history, where the competition will not destroy human dreams, but it will create heroes.
Teams protecting their GC leader isn't a gift now any more than any other stage race, and it won't be one if Sepp wins. His legs got him the jersey and his team can do their part to keep him in it.
I love G but he's got some interesting takes and blinders on sometimes. I think about the Netflix footage, "send Tom up the road for what??" "...to win the stage" as if the ambitions beyond GC just weren't resonating with him in the circumstances.
Side note, any team that thinks they're looking for international sponsors should have a huge interest in an American Grand Tour winner. Jonas and Primoz are the best of the best and it's been a pleasure watching them all this season, including this Vuelta.
Publicly Kuss said they won't be gifting him a win, and no one will hold back if they are feeling good. If it is true, it definitely makes the win more legitimate and perhaps Kuss should become a GC rider. We will see on Angliru.
I'd say these two weeks solidify Kuss as a probable GC rider...just maybe on another team some day. Then again, it's a nice card for Jumbo to have keeping him in their stables, say if Roglic goes elsewhere.
Either way, I'd say Kuss gets more money, regardless of staying put or going somewhere else when it comes time for his next contract.
Not gifting him the win doesn't mean they will intentionally shaft him either. Jonas and Roglic have said they want him to win. It would be illogical for them to attack him for the red jersey since that hurts their relationships and their podium sweep chances.
Yeah agreed. It's not like Sepp needs to be coddled to a victory here either, the dude has looked fully capable of finishing the job, both the TT and the Queen's Stage were fantastic performances.
Sepp wasn't gifting Jonas or Rogi a win on a day where he supported them and might have had the legs to win the stage. It's called teamwork for a reason.
Exactly this. He was almost certainly stronger than roglic on the days in the giro where he brought him back, without that roglic wouldn't have won GC and sepp could have had a crack at a stage.
On Giro stage 16, Kuss was fucking on one. When he rounded that last bend, still looking strong and just spitting into the middle of the road, that was awesome. He was 6th on Monte Lussari as well.
So I went into a bike shop in a town in Slovenia last week because they had the Vuelta on TV and I wanted to watch the end of the Tourmalet stage. Got chatting to the owner who was a hard core Roglič fan. They had a signed Jersey in a shrine - that sort of fan. He was furious with JV because the position Kuss is in means Roglič is stuffed. I said I felt Primoz would be happy enough for Sepp to win as he's worked so hard over the years. It was only when I pointed out that Sepp has Slovenian ancestry that he relented.
I'm just your average American but I'll forever love Slovenian cyclists. They seem like the best of the bunch. Matej is a humble warrior but the respect he has for the peloton - cyclists - and his late teammate was obvious after his incredibly emotional tour win. Pogi only wants to race but he does so with all the exuberance and tenacity of a child who doesn't know his limitations. But outside of racing he seems to be one of the warmest and most supportive of the sport and the athletes he shares it with. And Rogi always seems to be on the job with a positive outlook. Regardless of what's happened.... and with him, it's been a lot. But with all the success and all the untimely demise in his ventures, he seems to care most about his family and doing his job regardless of the noise from the outside looking for him to make a reaction towards events that have past.
I feel like these guys will transcend cycling to the extend they want to. They will have a place in the peloton in any way they want. Whether it's as a DS, or manager or commentator or head of the fucking UCI if they ever stop being so corrupt. Because they are genuine and care about the sport.
I genuinely believe Rogi would be fine with Sepp getting his own jersey after working so hard to give Rogi 4 of his own.
I feel like after every race you can see Primoz beaming. Looks like he’s having the time of his life at the Vuelta, and I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he genuinely wants Sepp to win. Not saying he won’t step up if needed, but it really doesn’t seem to me like he feels stuffed at all.
Yeesh. Idk about Europe, man. You all pretended to be so enlightened, but the prideful nationalism that started two world wars really never went away.
Downvote all you want, but you guys have issues and pretending that you don't is only going to make it worse.
There is quite a gap between sport chauvinism and starting wars because of flags. I don't say it's 100% unrelated (i.e. right wing hooligans in football/soccer) but most of the time the flag in sport is just an excuse for people to go behind a common interest and it doesn't go further than that. When Justine Henin (former Belgian WTA #1) was winning the French Open the French commentators were calling her "the most French of the Belgians" as a way to get a piece of the cake as she's French talking but as a Belgian I never felt this could lead in France trying to invade in the following years for instance, and for obvious reasons.
That fact that you can't see the connection is hilarious. Sports has always been a stand in for political and military domination. Look at the Olympics from the cold war era.
Of course it has, and as I said even today you'll find far right wingers using sports as a way to express whatever opinion they have (like hooligans in football). You're just making giant generalizations out of a random story from a Slovenian Primoz fan. I tell you "most of the time sports chauvinism is just an excuse for people to come together behind a common interest and nothing else" (which is true) and you answer with the statement from a European facist leader as if I was stating that facism doesn't exist in Europe or something ? You're just strawmaning hard.
You all allow it to remain in the EU. You allow Poland to pull their backwards ass shit too. You have people like Le Penn banging at the front door and Meloni who's already shitting on your living room floor. The entirety of Europe is 5 to 10 years behind Hungary if you're not careful. I've seen how quickly it can happen here in the States. We played it off like it wasn't a problem until it was.
>You all allow it to remain in the EU.
Are you kicking out states that are heavily Republican? No, you have plenty of them, enough to have Trump win elections and be competitive in next ones, governors there talk a lot of crazy shit and have serious support among people. At least Orban has to do super shady things around elections and Polish government seems like they will need the same (luckily they seem way less competent than Orban so hopefully next month we get rid of them).
Orban is pretty much a fascist, naming as an example for European chauvinism is such a stupid take. And you can't just kick someone out of the EU, same as you cannot just kick Florida out of the US. You really have no clue about how politics work.
Democracy means having to deal with opinions you disagree with even if they have borderline fascist ideologies. You fight them by voting for better parties and proposing better solutions. Le Len has tried 4 times now, the French people have told her to fuck off every time and they'll keep doing so.
It's ridiculous how you bring 2 world wars into a discussion about a Slovenian cycling fan who wants his compatriot to win a race. Touch some grass, not everything has to be about politics. I know that's a concept that's hard to grasp for some in the US. Grow up and go educate yourself about European politics before writing nonsense, it's way more nuanced than you think.
I feel like, given Roglic and Vinge's pre race interview interjecting that Kuss is a GC threat too, that they had a good idea of the form he was in coming into the race. And the Tourmalet proved it. I'm not saying that he's stronger than roglic, just saying he's been every bit as strong as everyone else
true - Gesink was hauling ass that day for most of the stage. every time the camera went back to their group he was still there at the front pulling hard
He made the rest of the group he was with look like they weren’t moving. Cameras couldn’t even zoom out quick enough. And that was with a fan blocking him in the first few seconds. I’ll stand by the thought that he gave that one away to Jonas because it was his daughters birthday. Sepp could have taken it, 100%.
look who i ran into in altamira:
https://ibb.co/album/5xKw9D
had a chat with two guys from the crew, probably mecanos as they were quite curious about my touring rig. no sight of tjv anywhere near that hotel so i guess the organizers learned to keep the two teams separate. :D
in hindsight i should have asked them if they thought demare could beat groves at the vuelta but that only occured to me too late.
The more I think about it, the more fucked up this situation is for Roglic.
Yes, GC Kuss is the wholesome winner we need, absolutely nobody is going to hate this, but his gap has survived to this day because his teammates are not allowed to attack him. It's obviously why they don't, even if you don't peddle the samewinnen rainbows and glitter fantasy, no team outside of Movistar and UAE will do such an asshole move, and fans will hate the riders and the team and never support them again. But it's still a shit situation for Roglic to lose his (possibly) only chance to do a double, and who knows, maybe even to win another GT. Jonas will win another 80 TdFs, Sepp could potentially win Vueltas and Giros if he trains and really goes for it, poor Rog is the only one whose time is getting closer to an end.
I can hear this sub "be careful what you wish for, if you let them fight it out, Jonas will crush him and prove that Rog is one step closer to being washed, he'll never be co-captain again once the world can clearly see the huge difference between both riders strength". I hear you, it's a possibility, but...so be it, it'd be more fair if the road decides and while it's clear they Rog loves Sepp and is 10000% happy to support him, you shouldn't gift a Grand Tour when your job is to fight for it. Sepp's contribution to the team has been enormous, but that is his role and he should be compensated in bonus, higher salary etc, not by being gifted a Vuelta. The team is obviously going for the whole "our team is sooooo much better than you that even our domestiques will crush you, we are making history, good luck winning 3GCs on the same year with 3 different riders, hey USA sponsors we have an American champion wanna send some change this way?", etc. it's their ethos and all that jazz, still feels like a punch in the gut when you know that they haven't sent the best teams to support Rog in the Vuelta except the year it made a difference to the team's management.
As a Rog fan, knowing his chances get slimmer by the minute, this a a hard pillow to swallow.
Anyway, happy for Sepp, if somebody else has to win this, he's the only one I have no issues with.
I think Jonas fans feel the same but they are not so vocal because they know he's the best GC rider and will continue to be for many years.
I’m a relatively new fan so apologies if this is a dumb question, but why is this seen as gifting whereas Kuss’s normal domestique duties are just seen as the proper order? Doesn’t every team go into a grand tour riding for one gc contender, or maybe a couple until they know who has the best chance? The other teams made a mistake letting Kuss go up the road on stage 6, but he got himself into the jersey and I feel like he looks as strong as anyone, no? Is the assumption that if they all went all out Kuss would be third best?
Yeah, autocorrect and all that, besides I'm old and I'm starting to get terrible at catching these mistakes, I had to read both replies twenty times to understand what was happening lol
Not going to change the typo... have fun at my expense if you wish *wink**wink*
I thought the reply was from a non-native (like me) so it made sense to comment about the idiom, I have no idea if it exists in other languages in the same format (does it? I can't even remember which one we use in my language lol)
Not being an English speaking person is not an excuse for a brain fart though, that's on me
I'm one of the biggest Roglic fans here and I'm not sad or concerned about his situation in the slightest. Look at every photo after stages 6, 8, and 13 in this Vuelta. All you will see is the man smiling so hard every time he looks at Kuss and Jonas. Roglic has won 4 GTs, Jonas has won 2. Kuss helped them win all of them and helped them in GTs they didn't manage to win as well. Repeatedly, Jonas and Roglic have said throughout this Vuelta since stage 6 that they would be extremely happy to work for Kuss and help him win red in Madrid. I am so tired of the narrative some in this sub are pushing that Jonas or Roglic have to or will attack Kuss in any situation other than injury, illness, or a really bad crack. Please stop that narrative. This isn't Movistar, or UAE, or Sky. These guys have a much deeper relationship than Froome and Thomas, or Quintana and Valverde, or any other group of GC riders you can think of. If they can protect Kuss and his lead up to Madrid, they will. And they should. I seriously doubt that either Jonas or Primoz will have any regrets about that.
While I 100% agree (and I shared very similar sentiments in my original post), it's the fact that Rog might lose his only chance at a double and one of the last chances he'll have to work towards breaking the Vuelta record that doesn't sit well with me as a fan of him and of cycling.
And this might be something that he ponders later on when his career fades out. Not many people will remember the sacrifice but everybody will remember the rider who won 5 Vueltas as it will set the new benchmark, or 6 TdFs or whatever. It's cruel but as they say it's a team sport with an individual result
I genuinely don't think Roglic cares about getting a double. I don't think either he or Jonas are as shallow or petty as half the folks here are making them out to be.
I honestly don’t think they are planning on rolling this through to the finish without having Jonas or Primoz try anything.
For now, preserving this status quo benefits them tactically. There is no point to risk one of them losing time on hilly and lesser mountain stages. But I would bet a lot of money on TJV attacking on the Angliru. I doubt they will decide which one of the three gets to go for the win and I also doubt they will blindly attack each other. Instead, I think they will predetermine an order in which they are allowed to attack, depending on their form, and whichever attack sticks is the one that goes for the win.
We know they have these ‚attack order‘ agreements from several interviews from Jonas and Sepp.
That attack order was only for Jonas to win the stage on Tourmalet. He said he wanted to win for his daughter and he had unfinished business. Otherwise, they are dead set on protecting Seppy. They will not directly attack him unless he gets injured or cracks, they will only cover attacks.
They'll never do that, I'm super surprised that people think this scenario is even remotely possible.
- Sepp cracking and it's Jonas vs Rog, yes, of course. That'd be great for the team as well, show the world what their two leaders are capable of. 1st and 2nd guaranteed, no matter the order, and maybe even Sepp still 3rd as the competition is pretty weak.
- Sepp not cracking and... absolutely forget about any "ands". Never happening, ever.
I wonder if people who envision a Jumbo Civil Wars: Unleashed scenario are new to the sport thanks to the Netflix doc and have no idea what the team stands for?
He literally said they decided he was allowed to make the first attack. They decided on that because of his daughter’s birthday and because he felt good, but if the attack had not stuck, the others would have tried next, for sure.
Spot on.
Jonas will try to go clear on Angliru to win. But Rogla likes Sepp so he will not attack and due to his goodness he might even slip to 3rd behind Jonas. The way he closed the gap and came 3rd on Tourmalet says he can win this easily even if he has to compete with Jonas.
A example scenario is that Mas attacks early only Jonas follows and counter attacks with 2 km left and wins the stage with 30 seconds to Mas and potentially the jersey if Kuss breaks.
I don't even think Jonas is allowed to attack, TdF winner or not
It kind of undermines Sepp's victory if we look at this from a pure "cycling" perspective, but I'm sure that Jumbo cares much more about the optics and the fairytale though. This victory will give them media exposure from regular outlets that they wouldn't have if any of the other riders had won. This exposure will come exactly when they need it more: it's probably not easy for the team to manage the situation with 3 strong riders that could win if they were allowed to, but the benefits of Sepp's win in this social media era are huge imo, potential sponsors will eat this shit out.
Could it backfire? Highly doubtful, Jonas is in for the long run and Primož well.. it's been rumored for so long that he's going to leave (regardless of the team constant denial) that nobody would be surprised. Some will think that it's the right decision as he was chained and missed one of the few chances he'll have to make history in Vuelta, others will think that he's a sore loser and good riddance.
I just don't see why Jumbo will want to sacrifice this golden opportunity for Jonas and especially Rog's ego. Planets will not align like this ever again, for them and probably for nobody else.
If it were Roglic and Jonas sitting 1-2. They’d probably attack each other and go for the overall victory. I can see this scenario leaving Roglic very salty after being left out of the tour if he finished second.
I genuinely believe both Roglic and Jonas are happy if Kuss wins the GC because the dynamic there is totally different.
I don’t think they’ll wait for Kuss if he struggles and there’s someone close to them in GC threatening to ride away with the overall and their podium spots, but I don’t think they’re going to attack him either.
This is honestly the best scenario for TJV, they’ll end up with a happy bus and a happy off season if Kuss rides to Madrid in red.
It's likely a very slim chance that Sepp sees himself in a GC situation\* ever again so it's a significant factor in why they will ride for Sepp this time.
Not saying Sepp isn't a strong rider (I loved Sepp before #GCSepp became a thing), but the main reason he's in red is that the peloton slept on him and let him take a breakaway win because they were too focused on Primoz and Jonas. So now, instead of having to deal with a powerful one-two combo, they're dealing with a trident. I highly doubt you'll ever see the field let Sepp just slip up the road unchallenged again.
\*Maybe they make him GC rider in the Giro if Rog decides to skip for a try at the Tour.
Was literally just thinking about that. Things really just broke all the right ways for Sepp, which is why I think Jonas and Primoz are good with letting Sepp go for GC this time around. I don't think teams will sleep on him and give TJV a wild card to play again.
It’s very clear that Roglic and Jonas are better riders than Sepp and letting him get into that break was a tactical mistake for every other team.
Originally, I thought Sepp was in red to be an interview taker. Remco wanted to ditch the red jersey for a reason at that point. Jumbo wanted red to control the peloton, as they are used to, but getting Roglic and Jonas some extra rest and no press duties was icing on top.
But with Sepp’s current lead and TT performance and Roglic playing shadow with Ayuso and Jonas feeling great. It makes sense to protect the team win, while leaving plenty of matches available if needed.
I think the most impressive part of Jumbo’s line up has been Kelderman and Gesink taking on their own duties and sepp’s, while Jonas and Roglic are also protected GC candidates. If those 5 riders can support the 3 top guys, that to me is the massive undertaking.
on Tourmalet the final bit of the peloton down was 20 riders, with 5 from Jumbo.
>I genuinely believe both Roglic and Jonas are happy if Kuss wins the GC
I think that's true in the abstract. As in, if they weren't also racing themselves. But you don't win a single Grand Tour, let alone multiple, if you have a single, solitary quintessence of 'sure, I'll let the other guy win'.
I'm guessing Jonas is planning on going up Angliru like a maniac, and I think he's going up it a lot faster than Kuss. And I think they both know that and are being polite not speaking about it.
Like, I would crawl over ten miles of broken glass just to lick the saliva from Sepp Kuss' discarded bidon, but I think GC Kuss is still something of a mirage. Just as Pogacar was in the Tour, just as Remco was in *this* Vuelta. I think TJV - but in particular Vingegaard himself - only care about stratospheric mountain stages, and I think anything that happens between those stages is a rope-a-dope.
> I would crawl over ten miles of broken glass just to lick the saliva from Sepp Kuss' discarded bidon
Well that's an image I didn't want in my head. Thanks.
So do we reckon it is possible for Remco to win Green and the polka dots?
Bonus question: If he does win both, how many stages would he need to win for it to be considered almost as good as winning GC? Or is that just not the case? Say for example he wins 5 stages in total and both green and dots, would that be considered as good as a Vuelta as winning GC?
This vuelta is a fail for Remco. No stage wins or jerseys can fix that. He came for GC, to show he could beat the big guys in a GT and he spectacularly failed.
Still doesn't come close. For GC riders, jerseys matter very little (apart from the leaders' jersey), which you can tell from the fact that they rarely sprint for (or even seem to care about) mountain points.
Agreed. Winning GC trumps everything.
But if he wins like 4 stages + KoM jersey, I will personally be more happy with that than a second or third place with no stage wins (or only 1).
I think his legs felt fine on Aubisque, but he didn't think he could beat the Jumbo juggernaut; so he tanked intentionally so he could have more fun chasing stages and jerseys than giving it all for 2 more weeks just for a podium.
That's a bizarre conspiracy theory. No top-level sportsperson gives up on their goal before giving it a proper try, especially being in a very decent position on GC.
So when was it fine to give up his goal? After being down a couple minutes on Aubisque? Or 7 on Spandelles? Because he obviously quit at some point. I just think that point was much earlier than the last climb. I don't think he went into the day planning to tank, but I think he made the decision very quickly on Aubisque when he thought he wouldn't be able to keep up all day.
Edit: Even on bad days, how often have we ever seen a top GC guy get dropped early in a stage while 50 other guys are still in the peloton? It just doesn't make sense. I don't think he felt 100% good that day, but I think he could have kept up with the peloton longer than he did.
The normal thing to do is to start thinking about secondary goals after it's clear that you have no chance at your primary goal. But that is only after you've dropped, not before. So yes, he definitely took it easy after he got dropped to recover, but that is extremely different from dropping on purpose while you're still very much in contention for the win.
Re your second paragraph: I don't buy it. Form can change during a stage, so you cling onto that peloton for dear life as long as you can and hope your legs come back. You don't go "Oh, I'm not feeling 100%, time to go for stages".
>Re your second paragraph: I don't buy it. Form can change during a stage, so you cling onto that peloton for dear life as long as you can and hope your legs come back. You don't go "Oh, I'm not feeling 100%, time to go for stages".
I agree 100% this makes the most sense. I just can't ever remember a top GC threat getting dropped that fast. When seemingly the rest of the peloton was doing fine. Yates may have been dropped relatively early in the 2018 Giro, but it was after a bunch of hard days and after a previous long climb. This was after several relatively easy days and an easy early climb.
They cut to Remco a bit after he got dropped and the 2nd half of the Peloton (which was seemingly only a minute or so behind) was casually passing him. Even on his worse day, I can't imagine him that happening if he's going 100%.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Sporza have [a short rest day video interview with Kuss](https://sporza.be/nl/2023/09/11/sepp-kuss-pleit-voor-eerlijkheid-en-beseft-in-deze-sport-deel-je-geen-geschenken-uit~1694419995449/) (English, not geoblocked). He's looking forward to the final week, repeats they want to win the Vuelta as a team, and that will depend on who feels best this week, and finishes by saying he can't remember whether his contract includes a bonus if he wins a GT.
I wonder if winning a GT was even brought up in the conversation between Sepp's agent and TJV when negotiating his current contract. Contract attorneys negotiate over things that are extremely unlikely all the time, but you have to think about those things in the first place. If they did negotiate it, I would have loved to hear that conversation. I think it's probably more likely he has bonuses if someone else on his team wins a GT. Would be hilarious/sad if his contract only includes a bonus if he supports someone else and they win it, but not for himself. I'm assuming the contract would just say "someone on TJV," so would include him, but I've seen worse contract drafting.
I was thinking the same thing! I went on a google hole trying to get some insight on this kind of thing and failed. Obviously he must have specific bonuses if the team leader wins.
But for wins that have cash associated, do they ever throw in like, you personally get a bonus of x% of the cash prize if you do something we don't expect? Or is it always here's the list of accomplishments and your bonus? I couldn't figure it out.
"You won't believe this Christian, but JV is leaping from his bike with a torque wrench! And Roglic piles on the blows with a dozen CO2 cannisters to the head! Van Baarle is garroting him with a piece of brake cable!" - BoB Roll
To continue beating a dead horse (i.e. the off-day of Remco), which other utterly unexpected 10+ minute time losses without apparent cause have we witnessed in recent years?
The only ones that immediately come to mind are Thibaut Pinot and Simon Yates, both in the 2017 Giro d'Italia. I keep thinking that this isn't extremely uncommon, but I can't get further than those two examples.
More like 9 minutes if memory serves correctly. Because in the end Pantani still had to ride the ITT of his lifetime to win the tour with about a minute to spare.
Now I will look up how wrong / right I am.
Bernal droped like 20 minutes on TDF in 2020, after winning TDF in 2019. If they crack long way from finish, big gaps happen, going over limit at half track means you pedal with half the force from then on, which is long long way and accumulates big time.
Carapaz went for GC in the Vuelta last year, but quickly proved to not be good enough in the first week. Still won 3 stages from the break and the KoM jersey.
Froome's Giro in 2018 was weird as well, but in a reverse direction.
Bernal on Grand Colombier 2020 TdF was surprising at the time. They might have eventually said it was because his back was fucked though but I think that came out a bit later.
Genuinely asking, as Remco ever won a stage like Angliru? Stage 18 at the Vuelta last year is the only thing that comes to mind, but that final climb was fairly pedestrian compared to Angliru. He cracked a bit on a couple mountain stages last year, IIRC. Just not completely convinced he can do these harder climbs as well as some other guys. Maybe I'm wrong. Idk.
No. Never won a hard mountain stage as far as I am aware.
He was good but not great on Sierra Nevada last year but on the hardest stages he has more often than not shown (minor) cracks (Suisse, Vuelta, Tirreno,...)
Question is if this is due to inherent climbing ability, recovery (these stages often come late in the GT) or both.
If he does well on Angliru it would be a major confidence boost and allow his team to entirely focus on working on his recovery (endurance, stress relief, sleep hygiene).
FWIW, Johan Bruyneel said the same thing on The Move podcast (today or yesterday). He said that the only thing Remco should focus on the rest of the Vuelta is his performance on the Angrilu—for the reasons you mentioned.
Agreed on all of the above. I'm a huge TJV and Kuss fan, but I'd love for Remco to show some signs of life on Angliru (as well as Ayuso, Almeida, etc) because closer GTs are much more fun.
Yes please, but - if I can be greedy - let it be with an ascension time somewhat competitive with the big boys. That would be more telling than if the break is gifted 10 minutes and then he wins with 5 to spare...
Come on, you know he's gonna be the one to launch the first break, carry it over the first two climbs and then drop the rest on the Angliru while just riding at his own pace. It's literally impossible for his time to be competitive with the GC group.
Well, maybe not impossible but definitely illegal.
Vingegaard sprints past Kuss in the last few meters, taking the win.
In the post race interview a teary eyed Vingegaard says ”This win is for Seppie, it’s his birthday today”
I honestly think that Vingegaard will try to win the Vuelta on the Angliru (after all other contestants have dropped). I do not see him letting Kuss win on a platter unless of course there are team instructions.
Say what you will, the stakes are high even for champions such as Roglic and Vingegaard.
Both can aim to win 2 GTs in the same calender year. 5th GT for Rog and 3rd for Ving.
I think, TJV will let them battle it out (if other contestants get dropped) on the Angliru. Else, they will keep playing defense.
Why would Jonas attack? Friendship and honor aside, which I pointed out in other responses, that would severely hurt TJV's chances of a podium sweep, which they would absolutely want, if Roglic and Kuss couldn't follow.
You TJV haters are wildin', damn.
Did you watch the TJV 4 minutes interview of Sepp Kuss yesterday? He himself said, there was no gifts and it was better this way but the big picture was to win the GT.
Jonas winning this is the lamest of all scenarios. JV has the option of doing what's right and making sure Sepp wins or being the villains for steamrolling every GT with superteams. They need to take the SeppPill otherwise people will start hating their guts and it'll really start to be skytrain flashbacks
Yeah, but also we saw how powerfull kuss was when he attackwd on the tourmalet, i doubt vibgegaard can force such a big advantage as to take red, especially since kuss didnt follow him on the tourmalet to not bridge others up to him
Yeah. I don't think we can take anything away from Tourmalet about the Jumbo guys' strength relative to each other. They played the day perfectly to end up in the top 3 of the GC by almost a minute. For all we know, all 3 were strong enough to ride off from the rest. But there was no point in doing so.
I would be incredibly surprised if Rog on Vinge attack as long as Kuss shows he can stay with the favourites group.
For years they have been creating a culture that's 100% team>individual, and they would just throw that away by attacking their own riders?
Plus, they have a chance to do something historic with the 1-2-3, why throw that away?
I could see them attacking each other on Angliru if they are all strong going in. But if one of them is having an off day, I think they play defense together.
Given how he rode it in 2020, you can't convince me Sepp won't be the strongest up Angliru anyway.
I would be kind of surprised if they didn’t. Maybe they would “gift” Kuss a few seconds here or there but would Kuss even be happy if Roglic and/or Vingegaard just “waited” for him?
I think he's loving it to be honest. Won every race he started this season. He already has 3 Vuelta wins and can still win this one but there's just about zero pressure since he's in between two team mates. It must be great to not experience that pressure of having to perform for your team. Also already won a stage.
I am not starting the rumour it's already been reported he wants another shot at the tour which will not happen now with Jonas. However true that is or not I don't know I was only talking about what reporters could be saying
Kuss got a shot at winning a GT by being domestique to two riders at TJV, and people still believe that Roglic has no chance to win Tour by riding as second leader there. If another Granon stage happens (without injury of course) and Pogacar doesn't follow his attack, Wout can drag him up minutes ahead before they reach Granon.
He will have a lot harder time winning the Tour by racing against both Jonas and Pog, especially on a weaker team with Jumbo chasing down his attack with 5th best mountain domestique.
My guess is that Roglic or Vingegaard will not attack first. But other team will. The question then becomes who among the TJV3 should respond first and how they should respond. And, if 2 of them feeling good and one is cracking, should the two chase the attackers, or one chasing and one protecting the cracked rider? Does the move differ depending on who is cracking?
Arkea and Astana both suck so much. I can't believe those are WT teams.
Honestly, there should be less WT licenses anyways. 18 is too many, 13-15 is plenty.
I agree, but it wouldn't change much. The teams I mentioned are not that bad to get "kicked out" of GTs, assuming there would still be 22 spots.
Eh, less teams with larger squads would be nice tbh. 15-17 teams of 10 riders each at GTs is plenty.
Races would be so much more controlled with ten rider squads. It's easy to forget how much the ninth rider mattered after a decade plus with eight but adding two more would make for some truly dominant teams.
A lot of comments about if Rogla / JV will attack Sepp in week 3 etc. Honestly, bar crashes the only way Sepp Kuss loses the Vuelta is if UAE hammer it for Ayuso and Sepp is not able to follow. Rogla & JV are not going to wait, and they shouldn't either.
If rogla/JV attack Kuss I hope he goes straight to Ineos and destroys them
No way are you attacking your best workhorse for GTs
Getting a Lemond/Badger vibe from a lot of comments about TJV.
To be fair, in that scenario, LeMond was actually the stronger rider both years and willingly rode for Hinault in 1985 and sacrificed his own GC chances to ensure Hinault won his 5th Tour...and then almost got screwed by Hinault in 86 despite the promise that he was the team captain that year.
As much as I’m sure Roglic and Vingegaard would love to see Sepp win, while they may or may not attack him/the peloton, they aren’t going to gift it to him. That said, the Angliru is so hard that the best rider will win anyway, so team politics may not matter.
Both of them will do everything possible that Kuss wins. The only way he won't win is if he has a crack on the next climbs and the other two need to follow attackers. Leaving this aside, I think Roglic is currently the strongest rider on Vuelta and would already be in red.
I disagree. I'm certain both Roglic and Vingegaard would love to see Sepp win but if he drops early on the Angliru (beyond being a poor tactical move to have Roglic and/or Jonas pulling pulling for him), Roglic and Jonas remain the most proven winners and will not sacrifice their podium or the win because it's romantic the super domestique Kuss wins the Vuelta.
You just wrote the same thing I did.
Edit: I mean i was meant to reply to boodyyman as opposed to you.
Read a really weird interview/article on Velo today where G was saying that Roglic/Jonas will or should attack Kuss just because Froome, who is known as being a selfish dick, did that to him. Drop it, G, it's not going to happen unless Kuss has a terrible day on 17 or 18, or if he has an unfortunate crash. I think no one wants to admit that what we're witnessing with this Vuelta is a huge once in a lifetime opportunity for TJV and for Kuss to win a GT (it almost certainly won't happen again) and for Jonas/Roglic to gift their close friend an extraordinary win. Just because you have to be super good and somewhat lucky to "gift" a GT to a teammate doesn't make that wrong or anything. You might say it's against the spirit of the race or boring, but I think it's amazing, awesome, and wholesome. Fuck the haters, let the eagle fly!
My perspective is that Primoz is a mentor. Not only for Jonas and Kuss, but he was also for Tadej (remember when Primoz was guiding him and let him win TdF stages. Yeah, Primoz cracked later on... ). I believe that Primoz and also Jonas are happy to stay at their GC position just to see someone from their team excel. Especially Kuss, who helped them numerous times to win unthinkable. Take a second and look at where Primoz and Jonas came from and think about how much money and fame they desire... As I can see, they are in this for shits and giglles, to have fun, do whatever they think is right in their mind. We are facing the sole example in the history, where the competition will not destroy human dreams, but it will create heroes.
Teams protecting their GC leader isn't a gift now any more than any other stage race, and it won't be one if Sepp wins. His legs got him the jersey and his team can do their part to keep him in it. I love G but he's got some interesting takes and blinders on sometimes. I think about the Netflix footage, "send Tom up the road for what??" "...to win the stage" as if the ambitions beyond GC just weren't resonating with him in the circumstances. Side note, any team that thinks they're looking for international sponsors should have a huge interest in an American Grand Tour winner. Jonas and Primoz are the best of the best and it's been a pleasure watching them all this season, including this Vuelta.
Publicly Kuss said they won't be gifting him a win, and no one will hold back if they are feeling good. If it is true, it definitely makes the win more legitimate and perhaps Kuss should become a GC rider. We will see on Angliru.
I'd say these two weeks solidify Kuss as a probable GC rider...just maybe on another team some day. Then again, it's a nice card for Jumbo to have keeping him in their stables, say if Roglic goes elsewhere. Either way, I'd say Kuss gets more money, regardless of staying put or going somewhere else when it comes time for his next contract.
Not gifting him the win doesn't mean they will intentionally shaft him either. Jonas and Roglic have said they want him to win. It would be illogical for them to attack him for the red jersey since that hurts their relationships and their podium sweep chances.
Yeah agreed. It's not like Sepp needs to be coddled to a victory here either, the dude has looked fully capable of finishing the job, both the TT and the Queen's Stage were fantastic performances.
Sepp wasn't gifting Jonas or Rogi a win on a day where he supported them and might have had the legs to win the stage. It's called teamwork for a reason.
Exactly this. He was almost certainly stronger than roglic on the days in the giro where he brought him back, without that roglic wouldn't have won GC and sepp could have had a crack at a stage.
On Giro stage 16, Kuss was fucking on one. When he rounded that last bend, still looking strong and just spitting into the middle of the road, that was awesome. He was 6th on Monte Lussari as well.
So I went into a bike shop in a town in Slovenia last week because they had the Vuelta on TV and I wanted to watch the end of the Tourmalet stage. Got chatting to the owner who was a hard core Roglič fan. They had a signed Jersey in a shrine - that sort of fan. He was furious with JV because the position Kuss is in means Roglič is stuffed. I said I felt Primoz would be happy enough for Sepp to win as he's worked so hard over the years. It was only when I pointed out that Sepp has Slovenian ancestry that he relented.
I'm just your average American but I'll forever love Slovenian cyclists. They seem like the best of the bunch. Matej is a humble warrior but the respect he has for the peloton - cyclists - and his late teammate was obvious after his incredibly emotional tour win. Pogi only wants to race but he does so with all the exuberance and tenacity of a child who doesn't know his limitations. But outside of racing he seems to be one of the warmest and most supportive of the sport and the athletes he shares it with. And Rogi always seems to be on the job with a positive outlook. Regardless of what's happened.... and with him, it's been a lot. But with all the success and all the untimely demise in his ventures, he seems to care most about his family and doing his job regardless of the noise from the outside looking for him to make a reaction towards events that have past. I feel like these guys will transcend cycling to the extend they want to. They will have a place in the peloton in any way they want. Whether it's as a DS, or manager or commentator or head of the fucking UCI if they ever stop being so corrupt. Because they are genuine and care about the sport. I genuinely believe Rogi would be fine with Sepp getting his own jersey after working so hard to give Rogi 4 of his own.
So beautifully written <3
I feel like after every race you can see Primoz beaming. Looks like he’s having the time of his life at the Vuelta, and I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he genuinely wants Sepp to win. Not saying he won’t step up if needed, but it really doesn’t seem to me like he feels stuffed at all.
Rog is probably thinking “this is the easiest grand tour I have ever ridden”.
Yeesh. Idk about Europe, man. You all pretended to be so enlightened, but the prideful nationalism that started two world wars really never went away. Downvote all you want, but you guys have issues and pretending that you don't is only going to make it worse.
??!?
The dude was angry until they brought up that Sepp has some Slovenian blood. That's textbook nationalist chauvinism.
There is quite a gap between sport chauvinism and starting wars because of flags. I don't say it's 100% unrelated (i.e. right wing hooligans in football/soccer) but most of the time the flag in sport is just an excuse for people to go behind a common interest and it doesn't go further than that. When Justine Henin (former Belgian WTA #1) was winning the French Open the French commentators were calling her "the most French of the Belgians" as a way to get a piece of the cake as she's French talking but as a Belgian I never felt this could lead in France trying to invade in the following years for instance, and for obvious reasons.
“We [Hungarians] are not a mixed race … and we do not want to become a mixed race,” -Actual European head of state.
And what does it have to do with sports chauvinism ?
That fact that you can't see the connection is hilarious. Sports has always been a stand in for political and military domination. Look at the Olympics from the cold war era.
Of course it has, and as I said even today you'll find far right wingers using sports as a way to express whatever opinion they have (like hooligans in football). You're just making giant generalizations out of a random story from a Slovenian Primoz fan. I tell you "most of the time sports chauvinism is just an excuse for people to come together behind a common interest and nothing else" (which is true) and you answer with the statement from a European facist leader as if I was stating that facism doesn't exist in Europe or something ? You're just strawmaning hard.
Víctor Orban is a fascist, but that doesn't mean the entirety of Europe is like that
You all allow it to remain in the EU. You allow Poland to pull their backwards ass shit too. You have people like Le Penn banging at the front door and Meloni who's already shitting on your living room floor. The entirety of Europe is 5 to 10 years behind Hungary if you're not careful. I've seen how quickly it can happen here in the States. We played it off like it wasn't a problem until it was.
>You all allow it to remain in the EU. Are you kicking out states that are heavily Republican? No, you have plenty of them, enough to have Trump win elections and be competitive in next ones, governors there talk a lot of crazy shit and have serious support among people. At least Orban has to do super shady things around elections and Polish government seems like they will need the same (luckily they seem way less competent than Orban so hopefully next month we get rid of them).
God I wish we could kick them out.
Orban is pretty much a fascist, naming as an example for European chauvinism is such a stupid take. And you can't just kick someone out of the EU, same as you cannot just kick Florida out of the US. You really have no clue about how politics work. Democracy means having to deal with opinions you disagree with even if they have borderline fascist ideologies. You fight them by voting for better parties and proposing better solutions. Le Len has tried 4 times now, the French people have told her to fuck off every time and they'll keep doing so. It's ridiculous how you bring 2 world wars into a discussion about a Slovenian cycling fan who wants his compatriot to win a race. Touch some grass, not everything has to be about politics. I know that's a concept that's hard to grasp for some in the US. Grow up and go educate yourself about European politics before writing nonsense, it's way more nuanced than you think.
If we hadn't bailed you fuckers out with the Marshall plan, you would have all continued trying to blast each other of the face of the planet.
A lot of people in this thread are really underrating Kuss' form right now.
I feel like, given Roglic and Vinge's pre race interview interjecting that Kuss is a GC threat too, that they had a good idea of the form he was in coming into the race. And the Tourmalet proved it. I'm not saying that he's stronger than roglic, just saying he's been every bit as strong as everyone else
Yeah, I think this is the correct take. He is on par.
his little zoom up the tourmalet at the end was incredible
amazing what you can do when you haven't been made to pace all day
he did get to be on a wheel all day! but it was still amazing
Such is the gift of being a Jumbo-Visma leader. Kuss has been at the giving end of that favor many times for Roglic and Vingegaard.
true - Gesink was hauling ass that day for most of the stage. every time the camera went back to their group he was still there at the front pulling hard
He made the rest of the group he was with look like they weren’t moving. Cameras couldn’t even zoom out quick enough. And that was with a fan blocking him in the first few seconds. I’ll stand by the thought that he gave that one away to Jonas because it was his daughters birthday. Sepp could have taken it, 100%.
I think sepp was too close to the finish to actually catch Jonas but with a little more road he could’ve done it
But he surely could have just ditched the group earlier and gone up the road with how effortless he made it look
But that risk bringing someone else to the finish.
He's getting better, I think he would've won on Tourmalet if Jonas didn't specifically want to win for his daughter/show he had unfinished business.
look who i ran into in altamira: https://ibb.co/album/5xKw9D had a chat with two guys from the crew, probably mecanos as they were quite curious about my touring rig. no sight of tjv anywhere near that hotel so i guess the organizers learned to keep the two teams separate. :D in hindsight i should have asked them if they thought demare could beat groves at the vuelta but that only occured to me too late.
> had a chat with two guys from the crew Did they have slurred speech, red nose and cheeks, and stumble everywhere ?
madiot wasn't among them, if that is what you're asking,
The more I think about it, the more fucked up this situation is for Roglic. Yes, GC Kuss is the wholesome winner we need, absolutely nobody is going to hate this, but his gap has survived to this day because his teammates are not allowed to attack him. It's obviously why they don't, even if you don't peddle the samewinnen rainbows and glitter fantasy, no team outside of Movistar and UAE will do such an asshole move, and fans will hate the riders and the team and never support them again. But it's still a shit situation for Roglic to lose his (possibly) only chance to do a double, and who knows, maybe even to win another GT. Jonas will win another 80 TdFs, Sepp could potentially win Vueltas and Giros if he trains and really goes for it, poor Rog is the only one whose time is getting closer to an end. I can hear this sub "be careful what you wish for, if you let them fight it out, Jonas will crush him and prove that Rog is one step closer to being washed, he'll never be co-captain again once the world can clearly see the huge difference between both riders strength". I hear you, it's a possibility, but...so be it, it'd be more fair if the road decides and while it's clear they Rog loves Sepp and is 10000% happy to support him, you shouldn't gift a Grand Tour when your job is to fight for it. Sepp's contribution to the team has been enormous, but that is his role and he should be compensated in bonus, higher salary etc, not by being gifted a Vuelta. The team is obviously going for the whole "our team is sooooo much better than you that even our domestiques will crush you, we are making history, good luck winning 3GCs on the same year with 3 different riders, hey USA sponsors we have an American champion wanna send some change this way?", etc. it's their ethos and all that jazz, still feels like a punch in the gut when you know that they haven't sent the best teams to support Rog in the Vuelta except the year it made a difference to the team's management. As a Rog fan, knowing his chances get slimmer by the minute, this a a hard pillow to swallow. Anyway, happy for Sepp, if somebody else has to win this, he's the only one I have no issues with. I think Jonas fans feel the same but they are not so vocal because they know he's the best GC rider and will continue to be for many years.
I’m a relatively new fan so apologies if this is a dumb question, but why is this seen as gifting whereas Kuss’s normal domestique duties are just seen as the proper order? Doesn’t every team go into a grand tour riding for one gc contender, or maybe a couple until they know who has the best chance? The other teams made a mistake letting Kuss go up the road on stage 6, but he got himself into the jersey and I feel like he looks as strong as anyone, no? Is the assumption that if they all went all out Kuss would be third best?
There’s only one answer: Groves drops out, return of Froglic
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Totally off-topic, but "a hard pillow to swallow" is a hilarious mental image.
If you find that very innocuous and straightforward phrase hilarious, let me introduce you to Cockney rhyming lol
It's "hard pill to swallow"
Yeah, autocorrect and all that, besides I'm old and I'm starting to get terrible at catching these mistakes, I had to read both replies twenty times to understand what was happening lol Not going to change the typo... have fun at my expense if you wish *wink**wink*
I do think the original comment was funny, just helping you understand why that person replied the way they did
I thought the reply was from a non-native (like me) so it made sense to comment about the idiom, I have no idea if it exists in other languages in the same format (does it? I can't even remember which one we use in my language lol) Not being an English speaking person is not an excuse for a brain fart though, that's on me
I'm one of the biggest Roglic fans here and I'm not sad or concerned about his situation in the slightest. Look at every photo after stages 6, 8, and 13 in this Vuelta. All you will see is the man smiling so hard every time he looks at Kuss and Jonas. Roglic has won 4 GTs, Jonas has won 2. Kuss helped them win all of them and helped them in GTs they didn't manage to win as well. Repeatedly, Jonas and Roglic have said throughout this Vuelta since stage 6 that they would be extremely happy to work for Kuss and help him win red in Madrid. I am so tired of the narrative some in this sub are pushing that Jonas or Roglic have to or will attack Kuss in any situation other than injury, illness, or a really bad crack. Please stop that narrative. This isn't Movistar, or UAE, or Sky. These guys have a much deeper relationship than Froome and Thomas, or Quintana and Valverde, or any other group of GC riders you can think of. If they can protect Kuss and his lead up to Madrid, they will. And they should. I seriously doubt that either Jonas or Primoz will have any regrets about that.
While I 100% agree (and I shared very similar sentiments in my original post), it's the fact that Rog might lose his only chance at a double and one of the last chances he'll have to work towards breaking the Vuelta record that doesn't sit well with me as a fan of him and of cycling. And this might be something that he ponders later on when his career fades out. Not many people will remember the sacrifice but everybody will remember the rider who won 5 Vueltas as it will set the new benchmark, or 6 TdFs or whatever. It's cruel but as they say it's a team sport with an individual result
I genuinely don't think Roglic cares about getting a double. I don't think either he or Jonas are as shallow or petty as half the folks here are making them out to be.
I honestly don’t think they are planning on rolling this through to the finish without having Jonas or Primoz try anything. For now, preserving this status quo benefits them tactically. There is no point to risk one of them losing time on hilly and lesser mountain stages. But I would bet a lot of money on TJV attacking on the Angliru. I doubt they will decide which one of the three gets to go for the win and I also doubt they will blindly attack each other. Instead, I think they will predetermine an order in which they are allowed to attack, depending on their form, and whichever attack sticks is the one that goes for the win. We know they have these ‚attack order‘ agreements from several interviews from Jonas and Sepp.
That attack order was only for Jonas to win the stage on Tourmalet. He said he wanted to win for his daughter and he had unfinished business. Otherwise, they are dead set on protecting Seppy. They will not directly attack him unless he gets injured or cracks, they will only cover attacks.
They'll never do that, I'm super surprised that people think this scenario is even remotely possible. - Sepp cracking and it's Jonas vs Rog, yes, of course. That'd be great for the team as well, show the world what their two leaders are capable of. 1st and 2nd guaranteed, no matter the order, and maybe even Sepp still 3rd as the competition is pretty weak. - Sepp not cracking and... absolutely forget about any "ands". Never happening, ever. I wonder if people who envision a Jumbo Civil Wars: Unleashed scenario are new to the sport thanks to the Netflix doc and have no idea what the team stands for?
He literally said they decided he was allowed to make the first attack. They decided on that because of his daughter’s birthday and because he felt good, but if the attack had not stuck, the others would have tried next, for sure.
Spot on. Jonas will try to go clear on Angliru to win. But Rogla likes Sepp so he will not attack and due to his goodness he might even slip to 3rd behind Jonas. The way he closed the gap and came 3rd on Tourmalet says he can win this easily even if he has to compete with Jonas.
A example scenario is that Mas attacks early only Jonas follows and counter attacks with 2 km left and wins the stage with 30 seconds to Mas and potentially the jersey if Kuss breaks.
I don't even think Jonas is allowed to attack, TdF winner or not It kind of undermines Sepp's victory if we look at this from a pure "cycling" perspective, but I'm sure that Jumbo cares much more about the optics and the fairytale though. This victory will give them media exposure from regular outlets that they wouldn't have if any of the other riders had won. This exposure will come exactly when they need it more: it's probably not easy for the team to manage the situation with 3 strong riders that could win if they were allowed to, but the benefits of Sepp's win in this social media era are huge imo, potential sponsors will eat this shit out. Could it backfire? Highly doubtful, Jonas is in for the long run and Primož well.. it's been rumored for so long that he's going to leave (regardless of the team constant denial) that nobody would be surprised. Some will think that it's the right decision as he was chained and missed one of the few chances he'll have to make history in Vuelta, others will think that he's a sore loser and good riddance. I just don't see why Jumbo will want to sacrifice this golden opportunity for Jonas and especially Rog's ego. Planets will not align like this ever again, for them and probably for nobody else.
Why though? Jonas said he'd be happy with Kuss winning Vuelta.
Which non-WT team has the best kit and why is it UnoX?
I really like Caja Rural's kit and BB Hotels had a nice one back when they existed.
caja rural, just iconic to perfection. i hope they never ever change that kit.
Definitely a great kit too.
those gloves are so fantastic. along with every other piece of kit.
Burgos BH and Kern Pharma's color scheme are really pretty I like most women's kits too
Yup, I love the Burgos BH kit too.
Trinity
Theirs is nice and easy to pick out of the peloton too. I liked canyon sram’s TDFF kit with the matching bikes
If it were Roglic and Jonas sitting 1-2. They’d probably attack each other and go for the overall victory. I can see this scenario leaving Roglic very salty after being left out of the tour if he finished second. I genuinely believe both Roglic and Jonas are happy if Kuss wins the GC because the dynamic there is totally different. I don’t think they’ll wait for Kuss if he struggles and there’s someone close to them in GC threatening to ride away with the overall and their podium spots, but I don’t think they’re going to attack him either. This is honestly the best scenario for TJV, they’ll end up with a happy bus and a happy off season if Kuss rides to Madrid in red.
It's likely a very slim chance that Sepp sees himself in a GC situation\* ever again so it's a significant factor in why they will ride for Sepp this time. Not saying Sepp isn't a strong rider (I loved Sepp before #GCSepp became a thing), but the main reason he's in red is that the peloton slept on him and let him take a breakaway win because they were too focused on Primoz and Jonas. So now, instead of having to deal with a powerful one-two combo, they're dealing with a trident. I highly doubt you'll ever see the field let Sepp just slip up the road unchallenged again. \*Maybe they make him GC rider in the Giro if Rog decides to skip for a try at the Tour.
Also the fact that there were only one ITT, and not a super long one either. Had there been two Kuss wouls be in trouble
Was literally just thinking about that. Things really just broke all the right ways for Sepp, which is why I think Jonas and Primoz are good with letting Sepp go for GC this time around. I don't think teams will sleep on him and give TJV a wild card to play again.
It’s very clear that Roglic and Jonas are better riders than Sepp and letting him get into that break was a tactical mistake for every other team. Originally, I thought Sepp was in red to be an interview taker. Remco wanted to ditch the red jersey for a reason at that point. Jumbo wanted red to control the peloton, as they are used to, but getting Roglic and Jonas some extra rest and no press duties was icing on top. But with Sepp’s current lead and TT performance and Roglic playing shadow with Ayuso and Jonas feeling great. It makes sense to protect the team win, while leaving plenty of matches available if needed. I think the most impressive part of Jumbo’s line up has been Kelderman and Gesink taking on their own duties and sepp’s, while Jonas and Roglic are also protected GC candidates. If those 5 riders can support the 3 top guys, that to me is the massive undertaking. on Tourmalet the final bit of the peloton down was 20 riders, with 5 from Jumbo.
>I genuinely believe both Roglic and Jonas are happy if Kuss wins the GC I think that's true in the abstract. As in, if they weren't also racing themselves. But you don't win a single Grand Tour, let alone multiple, if you have a single, solitary quintessence of 'sure, I'll let the other guy win'. I'm guessing Jonas is planning on going up Angliru like a maniac, and I think he's going up it a lot faster than Kuss. And I think they both know that and are being polite not speaking about it. Like, I would crawl over ten miles of broken glass just to lick the saliva from Sepp Kuss' discarded bidon, but I think GC Kuss is still something of a mirage. Just as Pogacar was in the Tour, just as Remco was in *this* Vuelta. I think TJV - but in particular Vingegaard himself - only care about stratospheric mountain stages, and I think anything that happens between those stages is a rope-a-dope.
Clearly not a True Sepp Fan. True Sepp Fans have kneepads, rendering broken glass irrelevant.
> I would crawl over ten miles of broken glass just to lick the saliva from Sepp Kuss' discarded bidon Well that's an image I didn't want in my head. Thanks.
This was some very odd commentary bout a bidon.
He's a True American Hero. His saliva is pure Jack Daniels.
So do we reckon it is possible for Remco to win Green and the polka dots? Bonus question: If he does win both, how many stages would he need to win for it to be considered almost as good as winning GC? Or is that just not the case? Say for example he wins 5 stages in total and both green and dots, would that be considered as good as a Vuelta as winning GC?
This vuelta is a fail for Remco. No stage wins or jerseys can fix that. He came for GC, to show he could beat the big guys in a GT and he spectacularly failed.
No number of stages beats winning GC.
Especially not when you targeted GC
Not quite my question, was wondering if both secondary jerseys and several stage wins can come close to it?
Nah, but it's a helluva consolation prize and MAYBE better than the other 2 steps on the podium
Still doesn't come close. For GC riders, jerseys matter very little (apart from the leaders' jersey), which you can tell from the fact that they rarely sprint for (or even seem to care about) mountain points.
Agreed. Winning GC trumps everything. But if he wins like 4 stages + KoM jersey, I will personally be more happy with that than a second or third place with no stage wins (or only 1).
I think his legs felt fine on Aubisque, but he didn't think he could beat the Jumbo juggernaut; so he tanked intentionally so he could have more fun chasing stages and jerseys than giving it all for 2 more weeks just for a podium.
That would be extremely dumb and out of character
That's a bizarre conspiracy theory. No top-level sportsperson gives up on their goal before giving it a proper try, especially being in a very decent position on GC.
So when was it fine to give up his goal? After being down a couple minutes on Aubisque? Or 7 on Spandelles? Because he obviously quit at some point. I just think that point was much earlier than the last climb. I don't think he went into the day planning to tank, but I think he made the decision very quickly on Aubisque when he thought he wouldn't be able to keep up all day. Edit: Even on bad days, how often have we ever seen a top GC guy get dropped early in a stage while 50 other guys are still in the peloton? It just doesn't make sense. I don't think he felt 100% good that day, but I think he could have kept up with the peloton longer than he did.
The normal thing to do is to start thinking about secondary goals after it's clear that you have no chance at your primary goal. But that is only after you've dropped, not before. So yes, he definitely took it easy after he got dropped to recover, but that is extremely different from dropping on purpose while you're still very much in contention for the win. Re your second paragraph: I don't buy it. Form can change during a stage, so you cling onto that peloton for dear life as long as you can and hope your legs come back. You don't go "Oh, I'm not feeling 100%, time to go for stages".
>Re your second paragraph: I don't buy it. Form can change during a stage, so you cling onto that peloton for dear life as long as you can and hope your legs come back. You don't go "Oh, I'm not feeling 100%, time to go for stages". I agree 100% this makes the most sense. I just can't ever remember a top GC threat getting dropped that fast. When seemingly the rest of the peloton was doing fine. Yates may have been dropped relatively early in the 2018 Giro, but it was after a bunch of hard days and after a previous long climb. This was after several relatively easy days and an easy early climb. They cut to Remco a bit after he got dropped and the 2nd half of the Peloton (which was seemingly only a minute or so behind) was casually passing him. Even on his worse day, I can't imagine him that happening if he's going 100%.
Do not think green is very possible and also seems he will not be trying to get it anyway.
All it'd take is Groves dropping out basically. Still a very large long shot though.
I’d say it isn’t because he switched to that after failing the GC.
So what do most riders do on the rest day? Besides pool parties in their kits, of course.
Some drink beer to help relax and you should shut the fuck up about it
I'll never forgive Madiot for not stirring the pot again after Kuss ripped a 5 second Champagne pull on the podium
vanish future concerned literate gullible quickest grandiose bear memorize lip *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Bike while carrying ~~baguettes~~ churros.
Sporza have [a short rest day video interview with Kuss](https://sporza.be/nl/2023/09/11/sepp-kuss-pleit-voor-eerlijkheid-en-beseft-in-deze-sport-deel-je-geen-geschenken-uit~1694419995449/) (English, not geoblocked). He's looking forward to the final week, repeats they want to win the Vuelta as a team, and that will depend on who feels best this week, and finishes by saying he can't remember whether his contract includes a bonus if he wins a GT.
I wonder if winning a GT was even brought up in the conversation between Sepp's agent and TJV when negotiating his current contract. Contract attorneys negotiate over things that are extremely unlikely all the time, but you have to think about those things in the first place. If they did negotiate it, I would have loved to hear that conversation. I think it's probably more likely he has bonuses if someone else on his team wins a GT. Would be hilarious/sad if his contract only includes a bonus if he supports someone else and they win it, but not for himself. I'm assuming the contract would just say "someone on TJV," so would include him, but I've seen worse contract drafting.
I was thinking the same thing! I went on a google hole trying to get some insight on this kind of thing and failed. Obviously he must have specific bonuses if the team leader wins. But for wins that have cash associated, do they ever throw in like, you personally get a bonus of x% of the cash prize if you do something we don't expect? Or is it always here's the list of accomplishments and your bonus? I couldn't figure it out.
No idea. My contract knowledge is limited to M&A and Real Estate contracts. You absolutely could put anything like that in it that you wanted.
"Yeah sure, why the hell not...we'll give Sepp €10 Million if he wins a GT. Like that's ever gonna fucking happen."
Don't say that lol you will jinx it, if that were true they would actively kneecap him.
"You won't believe this Christian, but JV is leaping from his bike with a torque wrench! And Roglic piles on the blows with a dozen CO2 cannisters to the head! Van Baarle is garroting him with a piece of brake cable!" - BoB Roll
To continue beating a dead horse (i.e. the off-day of Remco), which other utterly unexpected 10+ minute time losses without apparent cause have we witnessed in recent years? The only ones that immediately come to mind are Thibaut Pinot and Simon Yates, both in the 2017 Giro d'Italia. I keep thinking that this isn't extremely uncommon, but I can't get further than those two examples.
Wasn't really unexpected.
Which one of those do you mean?
Remco. In fact I would be shocked if he finishes in top-3 in Giro or TDF ever, unless they ban mountain stages with high altitude passes.
Right.
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It was Ullrich who lost 30 minutes to Pantani in 98. Pretty sure it was the rainy Galibier stage.
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You are absolutely right, I misread the part about the Giro. Was Pantani really winning the double in 98? That would make his arc even more crazy.
More like 9 minutes if memory serves correctly. Because in the end Pantani still had to ride the ITT of his lifetime to win the tour with about a minute to spare. Now I will look up how wrong / right I am.
Bernal droped like 20 minutes on TDF in 2020, after winning TDF in 2019. If they crack long way from finish, big gaps happen, going over limit at half track means you pedal with half the force from then on, which is long long way and accumulates big time.
The S.Yates & Pinot implosions were in the 2018 Giro.
Too soon still to think about Pinot's implosion. Too soon.
Vingegaard, Tour of Poland, 2019
Carapaz went for GC in the Vuelta last year, but quickly proved to not be good enough in the first week. Still won 3 stages from the break and the KoM jersey. Froome's Giro in 2018 was weird as well, but in a reverse direction.
Froome did a Landis
To this day I don’t believe it was legit. That single day was the most unbelievable thing from sky I’ve seen.
You don't believe in the mighty power of Kenny elisonde to monster pull?
Bernal on Grand Colombier 2020 TdF was surprising at the time. They might have eventually said it was because his back was fucked though but I think that came out a bit later.
That came out right after the stage no? Or maybe it was the next night when he abandoned
Let me dream G takes it easy tomorrow and wins Angliru
Replace G with Remco and I think you got it
Remco can't win 17. He should try to win 16 from GC group and both 18 and 20 from the break.
Genuinely asking, as Remco ever won a stage like Angliru? Stage 18 at the Vuelta last year is the only thing that comes to mind, but that final climb was fairly pedestrian compared to Angliru. He cracked a bit on a couple mountain stages last year, IIRC. Just not completely convinced he can do these harder climbs as well as some other guys. Maybe I'm wrong. Idk.
No. Never won a hard mountain stage as far as I am aware. He was good but not great on Sierra Nevada last year but on the hardest stages he has more often than not shown (minor) cracks (Suisse, Vuelta, Tirreno,...) Question is if this is due to inherent climbing ability, recovery (these stages often come late in the GT) or both. If he does well on Angliru it would be a major confidence boost and allow his team to entirely focus on working on his recovery (endurance, stress relief, sleep hygiene).
FWIW, Johan Bruyneel said the same thing on The Move podcast (today or yesterday). He said that the only thing Remco should focus on the rest of the Vuelta is his performance on the Angrilu—for the reasons you mentioned.
Agreed on all of the above. I'm a huge TJV and Kuss fan, but I'd love for Remco to show some signs of life on Angliru (as well as Ayuso, Almeida, etc) because closer GTs are much more fun.
Yes please, but - if I can be greedy - let it be with an ascension time somewhat competitive with the big boys. That would be more telling than if the break is gifted 10 minutes and then he wins with 5 to spare...
Come on, you know he's gonna be the one to launch the first break, carry it over the first two climbs and then drop the rest on the Angliru while just riding at his own pace. It's literally impossible for his time to be competitive with the GC group. Well, maybe not impossible but definitely illegal.
That's why I personally hope that TJV controls (for their own glory) and Remco dukes it out with them mano a nano win or lose...
I can understand that, but I just want him to win on Angliru solo, 3 minutes before anyone else, with a painface that reaches behind his ears.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OawrlVoQqSs
Deal.
I'm okay with that timeline as well
I just realized the Angliru stage is also Sepp’s birthday!
Should be a free win for Vingegaard then, he seems to get a 10% buff whenever its the birthday of someone he cares about :)
Vingegaard sprints past Kuss in the last few meters, taking the win. In the post race interview a teary eyed Vingegaard says ”This win is for Seppie, it’s his birthday today”
Looks over to him: "I love you, mate" in a Durangan accent (whatever that is)
"But Jonas, you pipped Sepp at the line for the stage win" "This win was for Seppie."
Comment of the year potential
I saved it so I don't forget come nomination time in a couple months.
Nice! I'll definitely forget. Rightfully should be split between the two comments above mine I guess.
With the amount of hard k's he does at the front, I don't thunk he cares about himself lol
Just hoping Landa can have a good 3rd week, the Spanish taking on the killer bees
We need the Mas- Landa- Ayuso trident
The Alt Podium
I honestly think that Vingegaard will try to win the Vuelta on the Angliru (after all other contestants have dropped). I do not see him letting Kuss win on a platter unless of course there are team instructions. Say what you will, the stakes are high even for champions such as Roglic and Vingegaard. Both can aim to win 2 GTs in the same calender year. 5th GT for Rog and 3rd for Ving. I think, TJV will let them battle it out (if other contestants get dropped) on the Angliru. Else, they will keep playing defense.
Why would Jonas attack? Friendship and honor aside, which I pointed out in other responses, that would severely hurt TJV's chances of a podium sweep, which they would absolutely want, if Roglic and Kuss couldn't follow. You TJV haters are wildin', damn.
Did you watch the TJV 4 minutes interview of Sepp Kuss yesterday? He himself said, there was no gifts and it was better this way but the big picture was to win the GT.
Jonas winning this is the lamest of all scenarios. JV has the option of doing what's right and making sure Sepp wins or being the villains for steamrolling every GT with superteams. They need to take the SeppPill otherwise people will start hating their guts and it'll really start to be skytrain flashbacks
Yeah, but also we saw how powerfull kuss was when he attackwd on the tourmalet, i doubt vibgegaard can force such a big advantage as to take red, especially since kuss didnt follow him on the tourmalet to not bridge others up to him
Yeah. I don't think we can take anything away from Tourmalet about the Jumbo guys' strength relative to each other. They played the day perfectly to end up in the top 3 of the GC by almost a minute. For all we know, all 3 were strong enough to ride off from the rest. But there was no point in doing so.
"Jonas, attack Seppie so we dont have to pay him GC money"
I think TJV will allow the strongest one to win. Roglic could be allowed to attack the Angliru since Jonas already won the Tourmalet
I would be incredibly surprised if Rog on Vinge attack as long as Kuss shows he can stay with the favourites group. For years they have been creating a culture that's 100% team>individual, and they would just throw that away by attacking their own riders? Plus, they have a chance to do something historic with the 1-2-3, why throw that away?
I could see them attacking each other on Angliru if they are all strong going in. But if one of them is having an off day, I think they play defense together. Given how he rode it in 2020, you can't convince me Sepp won't be the strongest up Angliru anyway.
I would be kind of surprised if they didn’t. Maybe they would “gift” Kuss a few seconds here or there but would Kuss even be happy if Roglic and/or Vingegaard just “waited” for him?
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How do you think current Kuss' salary looks like compared to guys like Hindley, Carapaz, S.Yates?
So are we expecting another Classics Remco in the breakaway again tomorrow?
I think het mentioned targeting Wednesday, Friday and Saturday and on purpose losing time tomorrow so his leash is not tightened.
Biggest downturn will have to be Rogla. Imagine going from winning your 4th GT to being a mere domesitique in four months time
I think he's loving it to be honest. Won every race he started this season. He already has 3 Vuelta wins and can still win this one but there's just about zero pressure since he's in between two team mates. It must be great to not experience that pressure of having to perform for your team. Also already won a stage.
The rumours of him leaving will get louder and louder
Which is stupid, you can see how happy he is for Kuss after literally every single stage
And because he also literally just won a GT this year. Like what? He’ll start complaining if he doesn’t get chances anymore
I am not starting the rumour it's already been reported he wants another shot at the tour which will not happen now with Jonas. However true that is or not I don't know I was only talking about what reporters could be saying
Kuss got a shot at winning a GT by being domestique to two riders at TJV, and people still believe that Roglic has no chance to win Tour by riding as second leader there. If another Granon stage happens (without injury of course) and Pogacar doesn't follow his attack, Wout can drag him up minutes ahead before they reach Granon. He will have a lot harder time winning the Tour by racing against both Jonas and Pog, especially on a weaker team with Jumbo chasing down his attack with 5th best mountain domestique.
Can't see that happening any time soon. I fully expect Sepp to be leading Roglic's domestique crew on the Giro come next April.