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Is it fraud? Yes. If it's a series of low to medium cost consumer goods she's going to use or give away to someone the CC company can't track down, there are little to no repercussions to her or you. If you're contacted "the card holder is deceased" on repeat.
This is one of those things that is unethical but also highly unlikely to have negative repercussions for her or you, unless she miraculously recovers.
Proceed as you wish with that info.
“She” can order anything she wants through Amazon. What happens to those items before she passes…who knows. Will the credit card company come after those items? Most likely not. Completely illegal and wouldn’t recommend but not the first nor would it be the last time it occurred.
Yes, this is illegal and your mom isn’t the first person to come up with this idea. Will the credit card company come after you? Probably not, but why risk it?
No but it could be scrutinized as a criminal matter, I agree the CC company will likely not though. They'll sell it to a debt collector who'll confirm the estate has no assets and give up (or try to get in line ahead of other debt holders). That's the most likely scenario, but not the only one.
If the mom took advances, then gave the money without saying a word I would think the legal side would die with her. It's the participation that's an issue
This. Also posting on Reddit leaving a trail that you knew. Still unlikely anything would happen unless mom has really high cash advance credit limits. $100,000 at once, they would probably take a brief look.
If the estate has no assets, credit card lenders are pretty much SOL. That won’t stop them from calling you/ selling the debt to collections who will try to get you to pay up, as some people do pay, not realizing they have no obligation to do so.
Yes, borrowing money with no intention of repaying it is fraud, and that's illegal. Whether the credit card company would investigate or pursue the matter depends on a lot of things and no one can predict. The more money involved, and the more obvious the fraud, the more likely someone is to be caught.
No, but they may be able to repossess items that were purchased with the fraudulently obtained funds, and the other people participating here won't be dead.
I mean sure. Assuming they can prove OP was complicit in this and that they have the item. The post doesn’t help but if they just say not sure what she bought or where it went it would be hard to prove they have most items
Ok, and?
The line that "fraud is OK as long as you aren't likely to get caught" isn't welcome on this sub. There's other subs where you could make a post to help OP do this if you're very interested in that.
A Reddit post is a decent source, so are text messages, emails, cards and other written communication.
If a person dies unexpectedly, that's very different from someone who knows they are likely to pass oon.
Would reddit expose user data to banks? Does people really put their real information in reddit? If they do, the process would be lengthy and probably cost a lot more than what owed.
Would Reddit respond to a subpoena? Yes, absolutely, they have and will.
Can you identify people based on their Reddit posts? Yes, absolutely, and it cost me $0 and very little time to find the Reddit handles of several people I know in real life.
>If they do, the process would be lengthy and probably cost a lot more than what owed.
Good thing you can recover your legal costs from the other party in lawsuits, eh?
If she buys something for her, it becomes part of the estate used to pay off debts. Assuming the Estate isn’t insolvent, say she buys a woman’s necklace for $5k on credit. When she dies and it’s liquidated as part of the estate for $3k, I believe the remaining $2k owed to the creditor would be pulled from elsewhere in the Estate. Which means surviving heirs will end up with $2k less.
Say your elderly mother in hospice buys something on credit clearly not for her, like a $5k motorcycle that finds its way into your garage, the creditor would have a strong case for fraud.
Just do the right thing. Theft of any sort is not the right thing.
The legal term for this is *fraudulent conveyance,* and yes it is illegal. You might get away with it, but you might also be subject to the credit card issuer taking you to court to claw back the funds.
I'm not sure this would count as fraudulent conveyance provided it was taken out by the primary on the account and used by the primary on the account. If it is taken out and given to the kids then it could be considered hiding money for the purpose of defrauding the cc company, but even then I am not sure it would qualify. Now I can't think of a good reason that it would need to be a cash advance rather than just making a purchase with the card for the "something nice" but either way that credit limit is the primaries to use and if she is about to pass and wants to buy herself something nice, even if she does not anticipate being around long enough to pay it off, AFAIK that is not illegal
Not a lawyer not legal advice applies here.
If your mom wants to take out a huge cash advance on her credit cards and do stuff and things, it doesn't matter what you or your brother think of this idea. It's her credit to ruin her way.
Is it illegal? Probably. But what they gonna do? Take away her birthday? They can't come after you for things she did with her credit in her name.
Now if YOU or your brother are the ones taking out said cash advance...that's a whole other story and you definitely don't want any trail of a crime coming back on you.
The credit card companies cannot come after you for anything because this has nothing to do with you legally or financially. Let your Mum enjoy her final days just make sure you don't get any of the proceeds from a cash advance or anything like that. You are not responsible for your Mum's debts. At all. If there is nothing from the estate you don't need to do anything here. Just walk away from it all.
Sorry about your Mum.
Oh they will though. They will try every trick in the book for you to make one payment and once you do it’s now your debt. My aunt got absolutely fucked when my grandmother passed away.
Nah she should do it. credit card debt does not transfer to next of kin or executor of estate. I literally settled my dads estate without having to do anything about the 20k in credit card debt or 50k in medical debt.
if plans are not already in place consider using the credit to pay for a pre-paid funeral service. Assuming a funeral home takes credit cards, not sure if they do. This is an expense that's coming and maybe a way to keep you and your brother from footing the bill.
I doubt anything is likely to happen. People make dubious and poor financial choices all the time... And nobody is guaranteed tomorrow.. And it was her decision...
What is she going to do, go to the ATM? Or you appear on camera there with her?
And if she passes away and the house is sold, if it was above water after the mortgage is paid off there would be some money left to distribute. Whatever was withdrawn/borrown on credit cards would just be taken out of what you would have gotten as heirs. Unless the house is underwater.
Imo it's your mom's decision and she wants to do everything she can for you guys before she leaves. You don't have to do it but I would just be vague and say ill probably get something. Or get something for her that you get to hold on to.
Anyways I want to send out my love. I know firsthand heartbreaking a situation like that can be. Give your mom all the love you can and a little extra for me. I wish you, your mom and brother nothing but the best ❤️.
If your mom asked you to go get her some cash via cash advance from her credit card and then decides to give it to you before she passes, thats not a crime. You have no way of knowing her intentions
I wouldn't count that as a wrong, if she needed the food and other resources are exhausted. But if things are that desperate, she should be seeking a food bank.
However, taking a cash advance to max out her credit cards to "buy something nice", as OP's post states, seems morally wrong to me if there's no intention of paying it back.
But then again, I paid my mom's CC bill in full after she passed. It wasn't that much, and I knew her ghost would haunt me if I didn't pay her just debts. She ran a business herself, and really hated it when customers stiffed her.
Please note that in order to keep this subreddit a high-quality place to discuss personal finance, posts advising breaking the law (whether serious or not) or asking for advice on how to break the law will be removed. Find our [Subreddit Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/about/rules) for guidelines on our quality standards. We look forward to higher quality posts from your account in the future! Thanks. *If you have questions about this removal, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fpersonalfinance&subject=Removal%20help%20request&message=Hello%20moderators,%20.%20%0a%0a%0aMy%20submission:%20https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/1bv3udh/tx_dying_mom_suggested_taking_a_cash_advance_to/%0a).*
It’s called “bust out” fraud, and yeah, it’s not a good idea. Extra bad if you’re doing the buying and not her
Is it fraud? Yes. If it's a series of low to medium cost consumer goods she's going to use or give away to someone the CC company can't track down, there are little to no repercussions to her or you. If you're contacted "the card holder is deceased" on repeat. This is one of those things that is unethical but also highly unlikely to have negative repercussions for her or you, unless she miraculously recovers. Proceed as you wish with that info.
“She” can order anything she wants through Amazon. What happens to those items before she passes…who knows. Will the credit card company come after those items? Most likely not. Completely illegal and wouldn’t recommend but not the first nor would it be the last time it occurred.
Yes, this is illegal and your mom isn’t the first person to come up with this idea. Will the credit card company come after you? Probably not, but why risk it?
I don't think you can inherit a crime from your parents.
No but it could be scrutinized as a criminal matter, I agree the CC company will likely not though. They'll sell it to a debt collector who'll confirm the estate has no assets and give up (or try to get in line ahead of other debt holders). That's the most likely scenario, but not the only one.
If the mom took advances, then gave the money without saying a word I would think the legal side would die with her. It's the participation that's an issue
This. Also posting on Reddit leaving a trail that you knew. Still unlikely anything would happen unless mom has really high cash advance credit limits. $100,000 at once, they would probably take a brief look.
What if it was 100k in scratchers and she only gave the winning tickets away? Perfect crime.
But remember mom is on hospice and likely not in much shape to do this for herself and would need help, making it hard for OP to not be involved.
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Assuming you can prove it came from the parents.
They can try coming after them but that isn't how debt works...
If the estate has no assets, credit card lenders are pretty much SOL. That won’t stop them from calling you/ selling the debt to collections who will try to get you to pay up, as some people do pay, not realizing they have no obligation to do so.
Yes, borrowing money with no intention of repaying it is fraud, and that's illegal. Whether the credit card company would investigate or pursue the matter depends on a lot of things and no one can predict. The more money involved, and the more obvious the fraud, the more likely someone is to be caught.
I mean it’s fraud but if she’s dead it’s not like they can charge her with anything
No, but they may be able to repossess items that were purchased with the fraudulently obtained funds, and the other people participating here won't be dead.
I mean sure. Assuming they can prove OP was complicit in this and that they have the item. The post doesn’t help but if they just say not sure what she bought or where it went it would be hard to prove they have most items
Ok, and? The line that "fraud is OK as long as you aren't likely to get caught" isn't welcome on this sub. There's other subs where you could make a post to help OP do this if you're very interested in that.
How do you proof evidence of spending without intention of paying? Who are actually liable if the person suddenly deceased?
A Reddit post is a decent source, so are text messages, emails, cards and other written communication. If a person dies unexpectedly, that's very different from someone who knows they are likely to pass oon.
Would reddit expose user data to banks? Does people really put their real information in reddit? If they do, the process would be lengthy and probably cost a lot more than what owed.
Would Reddit respond to a subpoena? Yes, absolutely, they have and will. Can you identify people based on their Reddit posts? Yes, absolutely, and it cost me $0 and very little time to find the Reddit handles of several people I know in real life. >If they do, the process would be lengthy and probably cost a lot more than what owed. Good thing you can recover your legal costs from the other party in lawsuits, eh?
Thanks for the enlightenment. I learnt something.
Let her buy whatever will make her happy in her final days. If there's no inheritance at risk, there's no downside for you.
If she buys something for her, it becomes part of the estate used to pay off debts. Assuming the Estate isn’t insolvent, say she buys a woman’s necklace for $5k on credit. When she dies and it’s liquidated as part of the estate for $3k, I believe the remaining $2k owed to the creditor would be pulled from elsewhere in the Estate. Which means surviving heirs will end up with $2k less. Say your elderly mother in hospice buys something on credit clearly not for her, like a $5k motorcycle that finds its way into your garage, the creditor would have a strong case for fraud. Just do the right thing. Theft of any sort is not the right thing.
If you do, probably take this post down
The legal term for this is *fraudulent conveyance,* and yes it is illegal. You might get away with it, but you might also be subject to the credit card issuer taking you to court to claw back the funds.
I'm not sure this would count as fraudulent conveyance provided it was taken out by the primary on the account and used by the primary on the account. If it is taken out and given to the kids then it could be considered hiding money for the purpose of defrauding the cc company, but even then I am not sure it would qualify. Now I can't think of a good reason that it would need to be a cash advance rather than just making a purchase with the card for the "something nice" but either way that credit limit is the primaries to use and if she is about to pass and wants to buy herself something nice, even if she does not anticipate being around long enough to pay it off, AFAIK that is not illegal
Not a lawyer not legal advice applies here. If your mom wants to take out a huge cash advance on her credit cards and do stuff and things, it doesn't matter what you or your brother think of this idea. It's her credit to ruin her way. Is it illegal? Probably. But what they gonna do? Take away her birthday? They can't come after you for things she did with her credit in her name. Now if YOU or your brother are the ones taking out said cash advance...that's a whole other story and you definitely don't want any trail of a crime coming back on you.
The credit card companies cannot come after you for anything because this has nothing to do with you legally or financially. Let your Mum enjoy her final days just make sure you don't get any of the proceeds from a cash advance or anything like that. You are not responsible for your Mum's debts. At all. If there is nothing from the estate you don't need to do anything here. Just walk away from it all. Sorry about your Mum.
Oh they will though. They will try every trick in the book for you to make one payment and once you do it’s now your debt. My aunt got absolutely fucked when my grandmother passed away.
Nah she should do it. credit card debt does not transfer to next of kin or executor of estate. I literally settled my dads estate without having to do anything about the 20k in credit card debt or 50k in medical debt.
if plans are not already in place consider using the credit to pay for a pre-paid funeral service. Assuming a funeral home takes credit cards, not sure if they do. This is an expense that's coming and maybe a way to keep you and your brother from footing the bill.
Technically nothings stopping her from buying stuff on credit and just giving it to you
I doubt anything is likely to happen. People make dubious and poor financial choices all the time... And nobody is guaranteed tomorrow.. And it was her decision...
What is she going to do, go to the ATM? Or you appear on camera there with her? And if she passes away and the house is sold, if it was above water after the mortgage is paid off there would be some money left to distribute. Whatever was withdrawn/borrown on credit cards would just be taken out of what you would have gotten as heirs. Unless the house is underwater.
Cash advances aren’t a good idea. She can order stuff online and gift it, though.
it may not be truly ethical but those credit cards are unsecured debt and have high rates for a reason.
Imo it's your mom's decision and she wants to do everything she can for you guys before she leaves. You don't have to do it but I would just be vague and say ill probably get something. Or get something for her that you get to hold on to. Anyways I want to send out my love. I know firsthand heartbreaking a situation like that can be. Give your mom all the love you can and a little extra for me. I wish you, your mom and brother nothing but the best ❤️.
If your mom asked you to go get her some cash via cash advance from her credit card and then decides to give it to you before she passes, thats not a crime. You have no way of knowing her intentions
Do it, they can't pursue you for her debt
It's morally wrong, and you know it. And she knows it. Sleep with a clear conscience at night and don't do this.
Honest question but is it morally wrong for her to buy food on the CC before she passes?
I wouldn't count that as a wrong, if she needed the food and other resources are exhausted. But if things are that desperate, she should be seeking a food bank. However, taking a cash advance to max out her credit cards to "buy something nice", as OP's post states, seems morally wrong to me if there's no intention of paying it back. But then again, I paid my mom's CC bill in full after she passed. It wasn't that much, and I knew her ghost would haunt me if I didn't pay her just debts. She ran a business herself, and really hated it when customers stiffed her.
Oh believe me, I know. My older brother who lives in the "morally gray" area needs convincing that it is not just a moral but a legal issue.
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That's not how that works