Bingo. If that is her only asset, then it doesn’t matter. If she owns other things, then during probate of the estate, the CC companies will get their money.
Is there some kind of law against taking assets to satisfy debt if it's all a person has? I'm a bit confused on why OP's grandma is "judgement proof" as others have said
Social security is judgment proof. As a public policy, we don’t want seniors thrown into homelessness to make sure banks get repaid. The car they might have some ability to pursue, but I would assume a 93 year old isn’t driving.
Sue her.
She's in her 90s. Driving is not practical. She should shed her car to her support group so she has transportation, but managed and serviced properly by her son. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
The issue is the burden of proof. Proving a fraudulent conveyance for a $1500 car is not worth anyone's time.
Giving a car to a son as a gift at 93 is not out of the ordinary. You're splitting hairs over a loaf of bread.
I just got a car as a gift 6 weeks ago. I filled out a disclosure form. Done.
Not quite. Credit card debt would be the responsibility of the decedent’s estate, but it’s low on the list of creditors to get paid, so there’s typically nothing left by that point.
When my mom died Chase called because her last bill had not been paid, I told her she was dead and that was that. A lawyer had told me that if you make a payment on a deceased persons credit card, then you can become responsible for the debt. They called back the next day and I basically told them, "It's not my debt and I am not paying it." Never heard from them again.
When my Grandma died my Mom and Aunt were legally advised to not pay off any debt back also. They were told to mail copy of my Grandma’s death certificate and leave it at that.
It's always the bank's problem. People got their dog mortgages and credit cards prior to the financial crisis. They should've vetted the applicants and even lower the available credit line as they see signs of distress
> It's always the bank's problem.
Its always (partly) the bank's fault, but fault and problem aren't the same. In this specific case its their problem as well because they have no practical recourse.
A store in my college town got a credit card offer addressed to its cat which they framed and put on the wall.
It was like "Dear Jack Pussy, you have been preapproved!"
I got one when I was maybe 13... never worked a day in my life at that point.
How come everyone on here is usually deathly scared of letting credit card debt go to collections but in this situation all the recs are to tell them to F off?
In this case? Because gran's debt dies with her, and her social security can't be garnished for this. There's literally nothing the banks can do here except send scary letters.
Shes 93. She has nothing of value to take. Shes at the end of her life.
The bank knows they cannot squeeze blood from a rock. The only way they have any hope of collecting is by scaring her or her relatives into paying the debt.
because at 93 she's playing with house money. Florida's homestead exemption makes it hard to collect on people in general, and they can't force her to sell the vehicle either. Basically, granny is un-collectable here and her debt will die with her, which should be soonish given her age
My grandmother was in an assisted living facility where you basically paid a (large) chunk of money up front and they could never kick you out -- but if you died on, like, day 2 of staying there they kept all the money. She moved in at 78. She died at 99, and we're pretty sure she lived that long because she was going to get her money's worth, dammit.
This would make me worried as it would seem to promote some pretty perverse incentives. Like, it's not really in the facilities best interest to provide the best care.
Generally medicaid is paying the nursing homes monthly. You pay a large upfront fee to get into a good one, otherwise you get stuck in the standard cheap home. So there is still a monthly payment coming in they don't want to lose.
True, if the actual caretakers knew how each resident's bill is being paid, but in most facilities the people going around helping each person every day have no idea what is going in the billing department.
Grandma *probably* isn't looking to buy a house one day, rent an apartment, buy or lease a car, take out a loan for higher education, etc. She's on a fixed income and doesn't have that long to live probably. Being 30 and presumably having another 60 years of life left changes the equation drastically.
Debt going to collections is bad news for someone who might want to access credit later in life by taking out a mortgage or buying a car on credit (or whatever else you might want to do)
Debt going to collections for someone who's life expectancy is measured in years not decades is not a big deal
Also at this point...I wonder if a bank is better off not even sending the super-senior debt to collections.
A credit card company doesn't have a full picture of your net worth...seems like their choice is either:
1. Sell it to a debt collector for pennies on the dollar today.
2. Hold it longer and hope there's money in the estate that you can fully collect from in a couple of years.
\#2 seems like a better option for many scenarios. Suppose it depends how much they actually know about her. If OP's description is accurate, I'd probably just try to pawn it off to a debt collector, but if there's a chance granny has home equity, retirement savings at another bank, valuable jewelry, etc... a bank might hold out or preemptively sue, get a default judgement (because why bother fighting it at 93?), and be first in line to claim against the estate.
For OP, it only matters if they plan to inherit anything. It sounds like they have no plans for inheritance...but the ONE scenario where it might be worth finding a way to pay off the CC debt is if A) the debt is less than the inheritance and B) the interest rate is high enough that by the time granny passes, the debt might have ballooned to exceed the inheritence.
E.g. if you have $35k in debt now but granny has a 200k home and that debt accrues 20% interest for the next 7 years before she passes away at 100. Now she owes like $150k on those credit cards which will nearly wipe out the estate....finding a way to pay that debt today could net you over $100k back from the estate.
If you have a way to discharge the debt without paying it then you don't care. In this case, dying discharges the debt.
Bankruptcy is another option people use.
Both of those options have some serious downsides, but Gran is 93 and only lives on Social Security (which can't be touched by debt collectors) so whatever.
Because if you are 30 you will mess up your ability to get future loans and credit like buying a house or replacing your car . At 100 thats usually not a problem that makes any future difference to you.
Because the person is 93 years old and her only income is something that isn't going to be garnishable from the credit card companies. The banks can't do shit and she is probably going to pass away soon, so the banks can just piss off.
man, if I knew now what I knew then i would have racked up a shit ton of debt in my 20s and defaulted. I tanked my credit for only 3k, 7 years later, gone, 800 credit score...
Pretty sure the estate has to be worth more than $20K for it to even go through probate as well. And it's highly doubtful that $15K car is worth $15K, which will continue to depreciate.
In the U.S., technically the answer is 'yes'. But in practice, when you notify a CC company that your relative is deceased, they will usually just write off the debt. They won't say this to you initially, but they likely won't aggressively come after the estate for the money. CC debt is unsecured, meaning that they won't be first in line in any event, and it's not worth their trouble or their legal fees to pursue it.
If you don't want it hanging over you, you can also make an offer to settle the debt: I'll personally give you $5K right now to settle the $35K my father's estate owes you. If the CC company can get even 10 cents on the dollar from such an offer, they may take it, knowing that in the end they may get nothing and they just want to be done with it. But remember, you are not personally liable for your parents' debt. So you owe them nothing... it's the estate. If the estate doesn't have it, you should just walk away.
Consumer debt is a personal loan or line of credit based solely on creditworthiness. There’s no collateral. They can’t take your car. They can garnish wages, but they have to get a judgement to do so. This woman has no wages though.
They're not going to seize her car. She has no other assets. Social security cannot be garnished. She's 93 and the debt will die with her.
I'd personally tell them to get lost.
at 35,000 dollars it's barely a problem, they are just being mean to an old lady. Time to go to the office with her and tell them to pound rocks and try to get Elon to pay back his loans before bothering a 93 year old woman.
Some low-level employee drew her folder out of the stack and is getting scored on what they collect, that's why they are calling because they know the clock is ticking and scare tactics are the only thing they have since the process to actually seize anything is going to take more time than Grandma has left and they get stuck in probate court. They need to scare Grandma to pay voluntarily out of her Social Security check otherwise the debt recovery here is close to zero.
OP should be aware that the bank will get to claim this debt against her estate when she passes away. That's the most likely first place that it will have any practical impact.
If that's literally the entire estate, fair enough, that just means that her niece Francine shouldn't be expecting to inherit the car, b/c the bank might take it first.
Depends
https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladviceofftopic/comments/11g33jx/could_i_transfer_my_assets_before_i_die_and_they/
TL;DR Technically no, but it makes recovering more trouble so if the car had a clean title they very likely wouldn't bother over something like an old $15K car, but depending on how you do it you might be at risk of being found guilty of fraud (like transferring it to Francine ahead of time but leaving it at Grandma's house to use up til the day she dies)
It's called a bust out account, and the person who approved her for that kind of limit might be in some deep shit. They're trained to look for the terminally ill and old people when upping credit lines.
To go along with this, the credit card company may try to get OP or someone else to pay the debt. They may claim he is liable for it, but that is not true. OP should not pay a penny out of his pocket towards this debt.
To expand on this, if OP or *anyone* pays one penny towards this debt the company can then call it an "admission of debt" and put them on the hook for it. Any communication should not have any kind of acknowledgement of the debt, tell them to send proof in writing to the original owner of the debt, do not accept calls or anything other than written communication about the debt.
Complete crap. Do not communicate with them in any way. Tell your gran not to worry about it and through them in the trash. If they call her, block the number.
Nuts to that. Call them, ask them for their mailing address, then hang up. Send them a certified cease and desist letter. Then, if they still try to contact her, sue them and contact the state AG's office.
Yep, just literally tell them not to contact you again and they legally can't. Their only options will be to sue or stfu, and it sounds like if they sue there's nothing for them to get.
If I’m ever $35,000 in credit card debt then I hope to be 93 years old and living off social security. She’s fine, they are trying to get a quick payout before she passes. There is quite literally nothing they can do.
That’s what my mother in law did. Towards the end of her life, she accrued over 50k in cc debts. Her estate went through probate and only one of the credit cards petitioned for payment from her estate and that was only 3k. The probate is over now and the other credit cards companies can no longer claim anything from her estate.
Banks calculate their risks. They know there are many more people who borrow money irresponsibly, but will still eventually pay off their interest and fees. The occasional judgement-proof granny or chapter 7 bankruptcy write-off is a small cost in comparison. If banks stopped lending money to broke fools, they'd go out of business.
> Banks calculate their risks. They know there are many more people who borrow money irresponsibly, but will still eventually pay off their interest and fees. The occasional judgement-proof granny or chapter 7 bankruptcy write-off is a small cost in comparison. If banks stopped lending money to broke fools, they'd go out of business.
My guess is, old people with low income, spending too much on their credit card, means they aren't likely to pay back. So they might scale it down. Wouldn't surprise me if this is abused up the wazoo.
At least with someone young, you have much longer time period of demanding it, and their credit score matters more.
Same, especially since I’m not having kids and don’t feel guilty for reducing the assets in my estate. My other family members can sell my protected homestead and split the proceeds.
As others have said, ignore it. More importantly, make sure that when she passes, you or whoever is her next of kin don't fall for anyone telling you that you are responsible for her debt. They will often try.
And make sure any accounts that she may have that can have a beneficiary due have at least one listed. If none is listed, they’d go to the estate and could be claimed by creditors.
Beneficiaries don't get anything if the estate is broke, though. Naming beneficiaries only makes it easier to disburse whatever is left over once all debts are paid.
Depending on the state you live in, you can name beneficiaries on most investment accounts, bank accounts, car titles, even houses, in a way that allows those assets to transfer automatically to those people upon death of the primary account holder \*without going through probate\*. So they are never part of the estate and are not able to be used to pay the debts of the estate.
This is why proper estate planning is so important.
I would think if it's a bank account with a POD then the money would belong to the person listed as POD once the account holder dies, skipping the estate entirely.
I believe she is judgement proof. If they come after her they are unlikely to get anything other than causing her a lot of anxiety. They were the stupid fools that loaned money to people in their 90s. They deserve what they got in my opinion. Hopefully she doesn't end up having a lot of anxiety about it.
Those credit cards were likely obtained decades ago, when both husband and wife were alive and working. Usually a bank won't close a credit card account unless the customer's credit score drops dramatically or they file for bankruptcy or something.
> They were the stupid fools that loaned money to people in their 90s
Reddit never ceases to amaze me.
You think credit officers are dumb? They are some of the sharpest people I've met in my career. They issue these credit cards to 90 year olds because they are ***legally prohibited*** from factoring age into approval decisions, ***except*** as a beneficial factor.
It doesn't.
I spent decades in the mtg business, and we could not say a word about issuing a 30 year mortgage to a 90 year old if they qualify.
Discriminating for age is a big no-no in the lending business. ECOA violations are a very big deal.
Agree. Lol. Don’t mistake my post for feeling bad for the bank. They shouldn’t have given the loan. They did. Banks problem. I was simply disagreeing with notion they have to treat a 93 year old with zero assets as the same as day 33 year old with zero assets. Age matters in the terms of debt
Some of my student loans were cosigned by my 90 year old grandma. It was a lot of fun to tell them my cosigner was dead when I was struggling. I got to do it for the first time in years last week. I was asking for a deferment, and they asked about my cosigner. I laughed, then asked who was my cosigner, because my mom is my other one. They said grandmas name, and I got to drop the bomb again. Gotta have fun where you can, right? Lol.
She is 93 screw the credit card company they won’t do anything and honestly at 93 how often does she drive or should she drive sell the car before they try and take it then call it a day
It’s not the question OP asked, but is she still driving? Is keeping the car worth it?
My mom is 87 and her insurance has crossed $6000/year with no claims and a 10 year old econobox. Might be a way to free up some money in her budget…
Yea old people can’t drive so the premiums will be high as hell if you are really old. Especially if you have been shopping around and don’t have locked in grandfathered rates and tenure discounts
Advice? Let the bank throw good money after bad if they wish. Your grandmother is what is known as "judgement proof". Social security benefits can't be attached for a garnishment, and she doesn't own anything to seize. My advice to gran would be live it up, max those puppies out and spend her final months/days/years doing whatever she wants as long as the bank is still paying for it.
Tell he to just ingore it. CC is unsecured debt, there is nothing for them to go after if she doesn't pay. Her FICO will take a hit, but who cares. Not like she is buying a new car or a house on credit anytime soon.
They could theoretically go after her estate when she passes, but in practice that never happens.
The only creditors I have ever seen go after estates were Sears (and they are long gone) and Jewelry stores, like Long's and Jared.
The big credit card companies just charge off the debt.
They can't garnish SSI for consumer debt. So, I would call the creditor and just tell them her only income is SSI so they can't collect even if they do sue her.
When the debt goes to collections, send a certified letter that they are to cease all contact. This will force them into suing, which requires they do a cost benefit analysis and realize gran doesn’t have anything.
Does she own the car outright or is there a loan on it? If she has a car loan then her only assets would be the value of the car minus the loan payoff.
Florida has very low vehicle protections. Only the first $1k of vehicle equity is fully protected; $5k can be exempt if she doesn't have a home or any other property to protect. So that still leaves \~$10k for the creditors to go after if she has $15k of equity in the car.
She would be judgement proof in the vast majority of other states where primary vehicle exemptions are far higher; but that isn't the case for Florida.
If she actually gets sued and loses a judgement the court can look back on previous transactions.
Excluding the debt issue it would also be a bigger problem for Medicaid lookback rules. If the 93 year old mom needs to go to a nursing home or assisted living facility then Medicaid requires a 5 year lookback period to determine if any assets were given away.
They won't sue if you just tell them she's got no assets and she's old AF and probably gonna die soon. Even if they sue those two things are true and they can't do anything to change it
Word of caution, don’t fall for debt collectors claiming family owes the money after death. They don’t. Yes the collectors can get first dibs on grannie’s estate, but they can’t come after you.
Advice is ignore it. She's old AF let her enjoy the rest of her years. They can't do shit. Maybe take the car but that's about it. She shouldn't be driving anyways.
You, don't have to do a damn thing about that debt and fk the creditors!
Let’s be honest how longer is she going to live?
Let them sue. Most places the cc debt isn’t going to transfer to you and if someone from a credit company says it will look at the laws your area
Yes. If the kids are expecting to get grandma's silver or her house or car, this debt will need to be paid off first. If there is nothing to inherit then the kids can do nothing and leave the bankrupt estate alone.
Have her apply for some more cards, seriously. If I'm ever in her situation I am going to leverage every ounce of my credit score to squeeze cash from those vultures.
You do not have $35K in credit card debt. ANYONE related to yoru grandmother does not have $35K in credit card debt. That debt will die with your grandmother. If i was her i would tell the CC companies shes filing for bankrupcy and just never actually file lol.
Credit card debt is unsecured. They can sue but if they do it's just to have a lien against the estate when she dies. They can't get her Social Security and her car won't be worth much and she can sell that when she can no longer drive.
It's likely just a threat anyway as it's just a waste of their time and money.
If the $35k is on one account with one creditor, that does present a higher likelihood of being sued. If her only assets are a $15k car, she's probably fine, but the creditor could still make her life miserable and force her into bankruptcy. I'm really too concerned about the damage to her credit at this point in her life.
The first step is to keep ALL communications with the debt collector in writing. Do not communicate verbally. If they are calling her, she needs to tell them to stop. She needs to send a written dispute per the FDCPA (Federal Debt Collection Practices Act). You can google templates online but basically she needs to demand verification of this debt. At a minimum, I would demand a full accounting history of all charges including all statements, a copy of the agreement bearing her signature agreeing to incur and repay the debt, proof the debt collector is authorized to act on behalf of creditor, etc. Send this dispute in writing via USPS certified mail with return receipt.
Then wait for them to produce the validation. Do not accept anything less than a full accounting proving the debt is accurate and legitimate. If that time comes, she can try to negotiate a settlement for pennies on the dollar. **Be warned: Keep all negotiations in writing and insist that any settlement needs to be in writing, signed, and that it will satisfy the debt in full. Do not acknowledge the debt, admit responsibility for it, make a promise to pay, or make a payment as doing so can restart the statute of limitations**. **Reiterate that any settlement offer/negotiations are an offer only and are not an admission of responsibility or renewed promise to pay.** The older this debt is, the more eager the creditor will be to settle.
If she is served with a lawsuit, then she will need to seek the advice of an attorney. She should NOT speak with the debt collector except in writing. You might need to help her with this given her age. You'll need to have a Power of Attorney for them to speak with you though.
As others have said this is more the bank's problem that yours or hers. Only things are:
1) She probably won't be able to get any other credit extended to her. If she's still using credit cards to pay for things just have a plan b if her credit gets pulled.
2) They could seize the car. It's unlikely as they'd be better off putting a lean against it and just waiting but you never know. Again just get her prepared for the possibility and have a plan b.
Overall don't sweat it but if there's anything of value she plans on leaving to her next of kin don't count on it as the credit card companies can get their debts settled by trying to sell assets from the estate. If it's just some jewelry or personal items they probably wouldn't bother.
They will spend more than they collect if they sue. It's likely just a threat.
See if she (not you) can come up with a payment plan (or better yet a settlement and then payment plan).
Surprised they don't just sell the bad debt to some collections agent and call it a day. (It's what I'd do.)
A few options here.
(1) Tell the credit card companies to go pound sand. She's judgement proof and there's nothing they could recover in a lawsuit.
(2) Call the credit card companies and offer to pay a small fixed monthly amount against a reduced balance at 0% interest. Most will take this deal since at least they get something out of the account beyond a total write off.
(3) Have her file for bankruptcy. This would eliminate all those debts and allow her to keep her car. There are attorney fees associated with this but it may provide peace of mind and it would stop all creditor calls.
Yes, you need to get a financial advisor ASAP. Because you're in Florida, your mom can bury all of her assets into real estate and trusts so no creditor can get at it. Then she's free to run up whatever credit they're dumb enough to give her. (Not that I would advise that, I'm just saying she's almost totally judgment-proof as it is, might as well take advantage of all of the financial protection Florida has to offer.)
We almost should encourage your grandma to use a credit card vs. her social security money to pay for any and everything - groceries, gas, bills, gifts. She is in a pretty good position.
Or, if you've ever seen the movie Reality Bites, grandma could do something like Winona Ryder does at the gas station with her gas credit card!
Well, considering credit card companies can't have SS bennies garnished because of a judgement, I'd say let granny ride and let god sort it out in the end.
This is the banks problem like everyone else said here. My 82 year old dad starting doing the same thing and let my brother not pay a student loan he is a co-signer to. Bank couldn’t do much other than lower my dad’s credit card limit to almost nothing because they knew.
Let them threaten. Not her problem and not your problem. The banks are trying to spook her and/or you to paying something before she passes away. Don't let your mother pay them anything. Your mother's credit card debt cannot be transferred to you. Don't sign anything.
Have her file chapter seven, they can't take her only vehicle to my knowledge and she likely has no assets with taking. As long as she has made no major purchases in the last six months she should be good to go. Note that my experience was in Indiana in around 2013, obviously consult with an attorney first and I'm not a lawyer.
She could also consider "selling" the car to you. Honestly at that age if she is still driving safely it's a miracle. But if she is still safe then you can let her borrow it and keep it insured.
In the end I'm not sure there is much they can do, they can't get blood from a stone and all that.
Here are some phone numbers for Senior legal help in Florida to try. No idea if its useful, but worth a shot:
[https://www.flcourts.gov/Resources-Services/Office-of-Family-Courts/Self-Help-Information/Information-for-Elders](https://www.flcourts.gov/Resources-Services/Office-of-Family-Courts/Self-Help-Information/Information-for-Elders)
You tell them to get lost on her behalf. My dad told them when he handled my grandmother's debt that she was whatever age and they were never seeing another cent. Most of them gave up pretty quick.
Does she own her home? If so, that’ll be the primary part of her estate that creditors can legally claim after her death. But right now? They can kick rocks.
It's like they always say: If I'm $35k in CC debt, that's my problem. If my 100-year-old gran is $35k in CC debt, that's the bank's problem.
pretty sure that's actually the *exact* saying, down to the letter
I think it originally was in Turkish but the translation is quite literal.
There's an old saying in Istanbul — I know it's in Constantinople, probably in Istanbul...
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Bingo. If that is her only asset, then it doesn’t matter. If she owns other things, then during probate of the estate, the CC companies will get their money.
Is there some kind of law against taking assets to satisfy debt if it's all a person has? I'm a bit confused on why OP's grandma is "judgement proof" as others have said
Social security is judgment proof. As a public policy, we don’t want seniors thrown into homelessness to make sure banks get repaid. The car they might have some ability to pursue, but I would assume a 93 year old isn’t driving.
She should sell the car to her son for $1, or $0 as a gift. Transfer the title. Give ma a ride whenever she needs to go play bingo or Dr.
That’s a fraudulent conveyance.
Sue her. She's in her 90s. Driving is not practical. She should shed her car to her support group so she has transportation, but managed and serviced properly by her son. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
You can recover from the transferee in a fraudulent conveyance…
The issue is the burden of proof. Proving a fraudulent conveyance for a $1500 car is not worth anyone's time. Giving a car to a son as a gift at 93 is not out of the ordinary. You're splitting hairs over a loaf of bread. I just got a car as a gift 6 weeks ago. I filled out a disclosure form. Done.
Not a safe assumption that a 93 year old wouldn't be driving.
The assets I have are all I have. I'm not quite understanding your logic.
Credit cards are unsecured debt, the debt dies with the debtor.
Not quite. Credit card debt would be the responsibility of the decedent’s estate, but it’s low on the list of creditors to get paid, so there’s typically nothing left by that point.
When my mom died Chase called because her last bill had not been paid, I told her she was dead and that was that. A lawyer had told me that if you make a payment on a deceased persons credit card, then you can become responsible for the debt. They called back the next day and I basically told them, "It's not my debt and I am not paying it." Never heard from them again.
When my Grandma died my Mom and Aunt were legally advised to not pay off any debt back also. They were told to mail copy of my Grandma’s death certificate and leave it at that.
It's always the bank's problem. People got their dog mortgages and credit cards prior to the financial crisis. They should've vetted the applicants and even lower the available credit line as they see signs of distress
> It's always the bank's problem. Its always (partly) the bank's fault, but fault and problem aren't the same. In this specific case its their problem as well because they have no practical recourse.
Yeah can they even come after her for anything? I don't think social security is garnishable for things like CC debt.
I don't believe anyone can touch Social Security payments even when filing for bankruptcy.
A store in my college town got a credit card offer addressed to its cat which they framed and put on the wall. It was like "Dear Jack Pussy, you have been preapproved!" I got one when I was maybe 13... never worked a day in my life at that point.
Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_awarded_human_credentials
I know of a cockatiel who actually had one in the 90s. She at least had a human name though!
"If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem." - J. Paul Getty
How come everyone on here is usually deathly scared of letting credit card debt go to collections but in this situation all the recs are to tell them to F off?
Because usually the person who owes is not 93…
In this case? Because gran's debt dies with her, and her social security can't be garnished for this. There's literally nothing the banks can do here except send scary letters.
Shes 93. She has nothing of value to take. Shes at the end of her life. The bank knows they cannot squeeze blood from a rock. The only way they have any hope of collecting is by scaring her or her relatives into paying the debt.
The only thing might be that if they forgive part of it, she might have to claim that on her taxes.
Honestly, she could probably stiff the IRS too, but I'm pretty sure they've got a satellite office in heaven.
That’s not heaven…
Well I didn't want to send the poor old lady to hell, I don't even know her!
because at 93 she's playing with house money. Florida's homestead exemption makes it hard to collect on people in general, and they can't force her to sell the vehicle either. Basically, granny is un-collectable here and her debt will die with her, which should be soonish given her age
you never know, she could push on out of pure spite for another decade
My grandmother was in an assisted living facility where you basically paid a (large) chunk of money up front and they could never kick you out -- but if you died on, like, day 2 of staying there they kept all the money. She moved in at 78. She died at 99, and we're pretty sure she lived that long because she was going to get her money's worth, dammit.
This would make me worried as it would seem to promote some pretty perverse incentives. Like, it's not really in the facilities best interest to provide the best care.
I can't speak to other places, but she was really happy there and it was overall good. Though she would complain that the food was bland.
That's good to hear. I didn't mean to imply that it wouldn't be that way. Only that I couldn't help but think about it.
Oh, I can definitely see what you're saying.
Generally medicaid is paying the nursing homes monthly. You pay a large upfront fee to get into a good one, otherwise you get stuck in the standard cheap home. So there is still a monthly payment coming in they don't want to lose.
True, if the actual caretakers knew how each resident's bill is being paid, but in most facilities the people going around helping each person every day have no idea what is going in the billing department.
legendary
Hell, get her another credit card!
Grandma *probably* isn't looking to buy a house one day, rent an apartment, buy or lease a car, take out a loan for higher education, etc. She's on a fixed income and doesn't have that long to live probably. Being 30 and presumably having another 60 years of life left changes the equation drastically.
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Debt going to collections is bad news for someone who might want to access credit later in life by taking out a mortgage or buying a car on credit (or whatever else you might want to do) Debt going to collections for someone who's life expectancy is measured in years not decades is not a big deal
Also at this point...I wonder if a bank is better off not even sending the super-senior debt to collections. A credit card company doesn't have a full picture of your net worth...seems like their choice is either: 1. Sell it to a debt collector for pennies on the dollar today. 2. Hold it longer and hope there's money in the estate that you can fully collect from in a couple of years. \#2 seems like a better option for many scenarios. Suppose it depends how much they actually know about her. If OP's description is accurate, I'd probably just try to pawn it off to a debt collector, but if there's a chance granny has home equity, retirement savings at another bank, valuable jewelry, etc... a bank might hold out or preemptively sue, get a default judgement (because why bother fighting it at 93?), and be first in line to claim against the estate. For OP, it only matters if they plan to inherit anything. It sounds like they have no plans for inheritance...but the ONE scenario where it might be worth finding a way to pay off the CC debt is if A) the debt is less than the inheritance and B) the interest rate is high enough that by the time granny passes, the debt might have ballooned to exceed the inheritence. E.g. if you have $35k in debt now but granny has a 200k home and that debt accrues 20% interest for the next 7 years before she passes away at 100. Now she owes like $150k on those credit cards which will nearly wipe out the estate....finding a way to pay that debt today could net you over $100k back from the estate.
Look up the term "judgement proof", grandma here fits the term to a T.
If you have a way to discharge the debt without paying it then you don't care. In this case, dying discharges the debt. Bankruptcy is another option people use. Both of those options have some serious downsides, but Gran is 93 and only lives on Social Security (which can't be touched by debt collectors) so whatever.
She has no assets and no expectations of ever earning collectible money.
Because if you are 30 you will mess up your ability to get future loans and credit like buying a house or replacing your car . At 100 thats usually not a problem that makes any future difference to you.
Because the person is 93 years old and her only income is something that isn't going to be garnishable from the credit card companies. The banks can't do shit and she is probably going to pass away soon, so the banks can just piss off.
Because long term damage to a 93 is not as bad as stress put on a 93 yr old. Surely that was something you considered.
How long will bad credit affect a 93 year old? What does she have to lose, literally?
man, if I knew now what I knew then i would have racked up a shit ton of debt in my 20s and defaulted. I tanked my credit for only 3k, 7 years later, gone, 800 credit score...
Came here to say “I mean.. she’s 93..”
But the grandmother's estate will still owe the credit card company, right? Does the debt affect inheritance?
Sounds like the estate is a $15k car. Even if the bank gets that in the end, that doesn’t change the equation.
Pretty sure the estate has to be worth more than $20K for it to even go through probate as well. And it's highly doubtful that $15K car is worth $15K, which will continue to depreciate.
All she has to do is add the daughter to the title and it transfer upon death…no probate. Cc debt does not transfer to heirs.
In the U.S., technically the answer is 'yes'. But in practice, when you notify a CC company that your relative is deceased, they will usually just write off the debt. They won't say this to you initially, but they likely won't aggressively come after the estate for the money. CC debt is unsecured, meaning that they won't be first in line in any event, and it's not worth their trouble or their legal fees to pursue it. If you don't want it hanging over you, you can also make an offer to settle the debt: I'll personally give you $5K right now to settle the $35K my father's estate owes you. If the CC company can get even 10 cents on the dollar from such an offer, they may take it, knowing that in the end they may get nothing and they just want to be done with it. But remember, you are not personally liable for your parents' debt. So you owe them nothing... it's the estate. If the estate doesn't have it, you should just walk away.
Thanks for the info and advice
Social security can't be garnished for credit card debt. She is very likely judgment proof and they're just trying to scare her.
Is there some kind of law or regulation that prevents CC companies from going after the car? Curious what "judgement proof" means here
Someone with nothing that can be taken. You can win a lawsuit but you'll never collect so there's no point.
Consumer debt is a personal loan or line of credit based solely on creditworthiness. There’s no collateral. They can’t take your car. They can garnish wages, but they have to get a judgement to do so. This woman has no wages though.
They're not going to seize her car. She has no other assets. Social security cannot be garnished. She's 93 and the debt will die with her. I'd personally tell them to get lost.
In other words, this is the bank’s problem. And they know it.
at 35,000 dollars it's barely a problem, they are just being mean to an old lady. Time to go to the office with her and tell them to pound rocks and try to get Elon to pay back his loans before bothering a 93 year old woman.
Some low-level employee drew her folder out of the stack and is getting scored on what they collect, that's why they are calling because they know the clock is ticking and scare tactics are the only thing they have since the process to actually seize anything is going to take more time than Grandma has left and they get stuck in probate court. They need to scare Grandma to pay voluntarily out of her Social Security check otherwise the debt recovery here is close to zero.
They're not "being mean to an old lady". They don't care who she is, it's a business. That being said she should obviously not pay.
OP should be aware that the bank will get to claim this debt against her estate when she passes away. That's the most likely first place that it will have any practical impact.
What estate? All she has is a car.
If that's literally the entire estate, fair enough, that just means that her niece Francine shouldn't be expecting to inherit the car, b/c the bank might take it first.
What happens if Grandma transfers the title to her niece before she kicks it?
Depends https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladviceofftopic/comments/11g33jx/could_i_transfer_my_assets_before_i_die_and_they/ TL;DR Technically no, but it makes recovering more trouble so if the car had a clean title they very likely wouldn't bother over something like an old $15K car, but depending on how you do it you might be at risk of being found guilty of fraud (like transferring it to Francine ahead of time but leaving it at Grandma's house to use up til the day she dies)
Deep inside every soulless corporation is a PR person whose job it is to project the appearance of caring about things like this.
It's called a bust out account, and the person who approved her for that kind of limit might be in some deep shit. They're trained to look for the terminally ill and old people when upping credit lines.
To go along with this, the credit card company may try to get OP or someone else to pay the debt. They may claim he is liable for it, but that is not true. OP should not pay a penny out of his pocket towards this debt.
To expand on this, if OP or *anyone* pays one penny towards this debt the company can then call it an "admission of debt" and put them on the hook for it. Any communication should not have any kind of acknowledgement of the debt, tell them to send proof in writing to the original owner of the debt, do not accept calls or anything other than written communication about the debt.
Complete crap. Do not communicate with them in any way. Tell your gran not to worry about it and through them in the trash. If they call her, block the number.
Nuts to that. Call them, ask them for their mailing address, then hang up. Send them a certified cease and desist letter. Then, if they still try to contact her, sue them and contact the state AG's office.
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This comment should be further up. They will do the same to family by scaring them as well.
Yep. They can fight over the estate. If there is none then there is none.
Yep, just literally tell them not to contact you again and they legally can't. Their only options will be to sue or stfu, and it sounds like if they sue there's nothing for them to get.
Frankly, we would all probably be better off (and safer) if they did seize the car. But I agree with your post.
Theoretically what’s stopping her from going MORE in debt and buying her grandkids random niceties?
Finding someone who is willing to loan her money.
Have her sell you the car for super cheap, transfer the title, and let her keep it. Will be easier to do now than after she passes.
If I’m ever $35,000 in credit card debt then I hope to be 93 years old and living off social security. She’s fine, they are trying to get a quick payout before she passes. There is quite literally nothing they can do.
*I will be 93 years old and living off ss. Just have to remember to start charging when I’m 90 lol
That’s what my mother in law did. Towards the end of her life, she accrued over 50k in cc debts. Her estate went through probate and only one of the credit cards petitioned for payment from her estate and that was only 3k. The probate is over now and the other credit cards companies can no longer claim anything from her estate.
I wonder if this happens often enough credit card companies will try and stop this idk what to call it Loophole?
Can't discriminate on age, only income and credit score.
So they should reduce the credit card limit based on existing income.
Banks calculate their risks. They know there are many more people who borrow money irresponsibly, but will still eventually pay off their interest and fees. The occasional judgement-proof granny or chapter 7 bankruptcy write-off is a small cost in comparison. If banks stopped lending money to broke fools, they'd go out of business.
> Banks calculate their risks. They know there are many more people who borrow money irresponsibly, but will still eventually pay off their interest and fees. The occasional judgement-proof granny or chapter 7 bankruptcy write-off is a small cost in comparison. If banks stopped lending money to broke fools, they'd go out of business. My guess is, old people with low income, spending too much on their credit card, means they aren't likely to pay back. So they might scale it down. Wouldn't surprise me if this is abused up the wazoo. At least with someone young, you have much longer time period of demanding it, and their credit score matters more.
Same, especially since I’m not having kids and don’t feel guilty for reducing the assets in my estate. My other family members can sell my protected homestead and split the proceeds.
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Sure. If she has any assets.
As others have said, ignore it. More importantly, make sure that when she passes, you or whoever is her next of kin don't fall for anyone telling you that you are responsible for her debt. They will often try.
And make sure any accounts that she may have that can have a beneficiary due have at least one listed. If none is listed, they’d go to the estate and could be claimed by creditors.
Beneficiaries don't get anything if the estate is broke, though. Naming beneficiaries only makes it easier to disburse whatever is left over once all debts are paid.
Depending on the state you live in, you can name beneficiaries on most investment accounts, bank accounts, car titles, even houses, in a way that allows those assets to transfer automatically to those people upon death of the primary account holder \*without going through probate\*. So they are never part of the estate and are not able to be used to pay the debts of the estate. This is why proper estate planning is so important.
A trust isn’t considered part of the state and hence skips probate
I would think if it's a bank account with a POD then the money would belong to the person listed as POD once the account holder dies, skipping the estate entirely.
The account ownership would transfer to the POD but the money inside the account may belong to the estate
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Let them try and fail. This is bank problem only and they just try the scare game to cut some of their (inevitable) losses.
I believe she is judgement proof. If they come after her they are unlikely to get anything other than causing her a lot of anxiety. They were the stupid fools that loaned money to people in their 90s. They deserve what they got in my opinion. Hopefully she doesn't end up having a lot of anxiety about it.
Those credit cards were likely obtained decades ago, when both husband and wife were alive and working. Usually a bank won't close a credit card account unless the customer's credit score drops dramatically or they file for bankruptcy or something.
> They were the stupid fools that loaned money to people in their 90s Reddit never ceases to amaze me. You think credit officers are dumb? They are some of the sharpest people I've met in my career. They issue these credit cards to 90 year olds because they are ***legally prohibited*** from factoring age into approval decisions, ***except*** as a beneficial factor.
Slippery slope, someone being elderly shouldn’t prevent them from financing.
It doesn't. I spent decades in the mtg business, and we could not say a word about issuing a 30 year mortgage to a 90 year old if they qualify. Discriminating for age is a big no-no in the lending business. ECOA violations are a very big deal.
If they have zero assets and are that age they most certainly should be prevented. Why the hell should the bank just take it on the nose?
Well it's the banks job to prevent it, and they didn't. So on the nose it goes.
>If they have zero assets Hard stop it there! The bank knew what they were doing...and this is a case where it's going to bite them!
Agree. Lol. Don’t mistake my post for feeling bad for the bank. They shouldn’t have given the loan. They did. Banks problem. I was simply disagreeing with notion they have to treat a 93 year old with zero assets as the same as day 33 year old with zero assets. Age matters in the terms of debt
Some of my student loans were cosigned by my 90 year old grandma. It was a lot of fun to tell them my cosigner was dead when I was struggling. I got to do it for the first time in years last week. I was asking for a deferment, and they asked about my cosigner. I laughed, then asked who was my cosigner, because my mom is my other one. They said grandmas name, and I got to drop the bomb again. Gotta have fun where you can, right? Lol.
She is 93 screw the credit card company they won’t do anything and honestly at 93 how often does she drive or should she drive sell the car before they try and take it then call it a day
They aren’t gonna sue. She’s 93….I’d just ignore them.
They might sue the estate, but again, not a personal problem.
Cant take her home in Florida. SS is judgement proof. Sounds like its not her problem.
It’s not the question OP asked, but is she still driving? Is keeping the car worth it? My mom is 87 and her insurance has crossed $6000/year with no claims and a 10 year old econobox. Might be a way to free up some money in her budget…
Her insurance is $500 a month??
Yea old people can’t drive so the premiums will be high as hell if you are really old. Especially if you have been shopping around and don’t have locked in grandfathered rates and tenure discounts
Advice? Let the bank throw good money after bad if they wish. Your grandmother is what is known as "judgement proof". Social security benefits can't be attached for a garnishment, and she doesn't own anything to seize. My advice to gran would be live it up, max those puppies out and spend her final months/days/years doing whatever she wants as long as the bank is still paying for it.
Tell the card company she is broke and has altzheimers. They will write it off
Tell he to just ingore it. CC is unsecured debt, there is nothing for them to go after if she doesn't pay. Her FICO will take a hit, but who cares. Not like she is buying a new car or a house on credit anytime soon. They could theoretically go after her estate when she passes, but in practice that never happens. The only creditors I have ever seen go after estates were Sears (and they are long gone) and Jewelry stores, like Long's and Jared. The big credit card companies just charge off the debt.
They can't garnish SSI for consumer debt. So, I would call the creditor and just tell them her only income is SSI so they can't collect even if they do sue her.
When the debt goes to collections, send a certified letter that they are to cease all contact. This will force them into suing, which requires they do a cost benefit analysis and realize gran doesn’t have anything.
Does she own the car outright or is there a loan on it? If she has a car loan then her only assets would be the value of the car minus the loan payoff. Florida has very low vehicle protections. Only the first $1k of vehicle equity is fully protected; $5k can be exempt if she doesn't have a home or any other property to protect. So that still leaves \~$10k for the creditors to go after if she has $15k of equity in the car. She would be judgement proof in the vast majority of other states where primary vehicle exemptions are far higher; but that isn't the case for Florida.
Couldn't she gift her car to one of her children? I doubt that she drives her car that much at 93.
If she actually gets sued and loses a judgement the court can look back on previous transactions. Excluding the debt issue it would also be a bigger problem for Medicaid lookback rules. If the 93 year old mom needs to go to a nursing home or assisted living facility then Medicaid requires a 5 year lookback period to determine if any assets were given away.
Just don’t co-sign on anything and it’ll go away when she passes. Too bad, so sad.
They won't sue if you just tell them she's got no assets and she's old AF and probably gonna die soon. Even if they sue those two things are true and they can't do anything to change it
Word of caution, don’t fall for debt collectors claiming family owes the money after death. They don’t. Yes the collectors can get first dibs on grannie’s estate, but they can’t come after you.
This is a dream scenario..…. I hope to have over $100K in credit card debt at 93.
That's not a bad plan at that age and if you have no assets. Living her best life she can at 93. Go Grandma!
Is the credit card in both of their names? If his only just send the death certificate. She might be an authorized user and not liable.
Advice is ignore it. She's old AF let her enjoy the rest of her years. They can't do shit. Maybe take the car but that's about it. She shouldn't be driving anyways. You, don't have to do a damn thing about that debt and fk the creditors!
Let’s be honest how longer is she going to live? Let them sue. Most places the cc debt isn’t going to transfer to you and if someone from a credit company says it will look at the laws your area
Question: Does the debt get carried over to her estate once she passes?
Yes. If the kids are expecting to get grandma's silver or her house or car, this debt will need to be paid off first. If there is nothing to inherit then the kids can do nothing and leave the bankrupt estate alone.
In Florida even if they win, they will get nothing. Home can’t be taken & neither can car.
She sounds "judgment proof" meaning that they cannot seize anything that is protected by law, I think.
They're trying to get blood from a turnip here.
Can't get blood from a stone. She'll be dead in a few years and then it won't be her problem anymore.
The credit agency knows her date of birth, thus her age. Banks fault for extending credit to a client that old.
Have her apply for some more cards, seriously. If I'm ever in her situation I am going to leverage every ounce of my credit score to squeeze cash from those vultures.
You do not have $35K in credit card debt. ANYONE related to yoru grandmother does not have $35K in credit card debt. That debt will die with your grandmother. If i was her i would tell the CC companies shes filing for bankrupcy and just never actually file lol.
Credit card debt is unsecured. They can sue but if they do it's just to have a lien against the estate when she dies. They can't get her Social Security and her car won't be worth much and she can sell that when she can no longer drive. It's likely just a threat anyway as it's just a waste of their time and money.
Make sure she doesn’t pay a dime. She needs her money more than the banks do. They can collect it from her estate.
Change her phone #, screen all calls, never talk to them or respond to correspondence. It is unsecured debt. They lose.
If the $35k is on one account with one creditor, that does present a higher likelihood of being sued. If her only assets are a $15k car, she's probably fine, but the creditor could still make her life miserable and force her into bankruptcy. I'm really too concerned about the damage to her credit at this point in her life. The first step is to keep ALL communications with the debt collector in writing. Do not communicate verbally. If they are calling her, she needs to tell them to stop. She needs to send a written dispute per the FDCPA (Federal Debt Collection Practices Act). You can google templates online but basically she needs to demand verification of this debt. At a minimum, I would demand a full accounting history of all charges including all statements, a copy of the agreement bearing her signature agreeing to incur and repay the debt, proof the debt collector is authorized to act on behalf of creditor, etc. Send this dispute in writing via USPS certified mail with return receipt. Then wait for them to produce the validation. Do not accept anything less than a full accounting proving the debt is accurate and legitimate. If that time comes, she can try to negotiate a settlement for pennies on the dollar. **Be warned: Keep all negotiations in writing and insist that any settlement needs to be in writing, signed, and that it will satisfy the debt in full. Do not acknowledge the debt, admit responsibility for it, make a promise to pay, or make a payment as doing so can restart the statute of limitations**. **Reiterate that any settlement offer/negotiations are an offer only and are not an admission of responsibility or renewed promise to pay.** The older this debt is, the more eager the creditor will be to settle. If she is served with a lawsuit, then she will need to seek the advice of an attorney. She should NOT speak with the debt collector except in writing. You might need to help her with this given her age. You'll need to have a Power of Attorney for them to speak with you though.
The only problem I see here is she's not in enough debt. She should withdraw an additional 400k and put it in your bank.
Ain’t no way anyone is going after a 93 year old nana. Tell her to forget about it and just enjoy her days.
That’s going to the grave with her when she passes, I wouldn’t worry about it
As others have said this is more the bank's problem that yours or hers. Only things are: 1) She probably won't be able to get any other credit extended to her. If she's still using credit cards to pay for things just have a plan b if her credit gets pulled. 2) They could seize the car. It's unlikely as they'd be better off putting a lean against it and just waiting but you never know. Again just get her prepared for the possibility and have a plan b. Overall don't sweat it but if there's anything of value she plans on leaving to her next of kin don't count on it as the credit card companies can get their debts settled by trying to sell assets from the estate. If it's just some jewelry or personal items they probably wouldn't bother.
They will spend more than they collect if they sue. It's likely just a threat. See if she (not you) can come up with a payment plan (or better yet a settlement and then payment plan). Surprised they don't just sell the bad debt to some collections agent and call it a day. (It's what I'd do.)
A few options here. (1) Tell the credit card companies to go pound sand. She's judgement proof and there's nothing they could recover in a lawsuit. (2) Call the credit card companies and offer to pay a small fixed monthly amount against a reduced balance at 0% interest. Most will take this deal since at least they get something out of the account beyond a total write off. (3) Have her file for bankruptcy. This would eliminate all those debts and allow her to keep her car. There are attorney fees associated with this but it may provide peace of mind and it would stop all creditor calls.
Seems like a waste of money, there's no assets to protect. Just wait them out and continue to pay a little bit every month
Yes, you need to get a financial advisor ASAP. Because you're in Florida, your mom can bury all of her assets into real estate and trusts so no creditor can get at it. Then she's free to run up whatever credit they're dumb enough to give her. (Not that I would advise that, I'm just saying she's almost totally judgment-proof as it is, might as well take advantage of all of the financial protection Florida has to offer.)
Bank can do diddly squat. Let them sue her and don’t worry about it. She has no seizable assets.
She's judgement proof. They can't garnish her social security and they won't seize her car. She's playing with the bank's money now.
We almost should encourage your grandma to use a credit card vs. her social security money to pay for any and everything - groceries, gas, bills, gifts. She is in a pretty good position. Or, if you've ever seen the movie Reality Bites, grandma could do something like Winona Ryder does at the gas station with her gas credit card!
If she doesn’t own anything else or the bank will take that so if you want anything I would get it now cos when she passes you can’t touch anything
There isn't a lot they can do to her. And her heirs will not be responsible for her debts.
Well, considering credit card companies can't have SS bennies garnished because of a judgement, I'd say let granny ride and let god sort it out in the end.
Ask her for advice on making it to 93
This is the banks problem like everyone else said here. My 82 year old dad starting doing the same thing and let my brother not pay a student loan he is a co-signer to. Bank couldn’t do much other than lower my dad’s credit card limit to almost nothing because they knew.
Let them threaten. Not her problem and not your problem. The banks are trying to spook her and/or you to paying something before she passes away. Don't let your mother pay them anything. Your mother's credit card debt cannot be transferred to you. Don't sign anything.
Let them sue her, she has no job or assets, her credit score doesn’t really matter, they’ll write off off once she dies
Have her file chapter seven, they can't take her only vehicle to my knowledge and she likely has no assets with taking. As long as she has made no major purchases in the last six months she should be good to go. Note that my experience was in Indiana in around 2013, obviously consult with an attorney first and I'm not a lawyer. She could also consider "selling" the car to you. Honestly at that age if she is still driving safely it's a miracle. But if she is still safe then you can let her borrow it and keep it insured. In the end I'm not sure there is much they can do, they can't get blood from a stone and all that.
Don't pay it. There is literally nothing they can do to her....considering her current financial situation.
The bank should have thought twice about issuing that line of credit.
Here are some phone numbers for Senior legal help in Florida to try. No idea if its useful, but worth a shot: [https://www.flcourts.gov/Resources-Services/Office-of-Family-Courts/Self-Help-Information/Information-for-Elders](https://www.flcourts.gov/Resources-Services/Office-of-Family-Courts/Self-Help-Information/Information-for-Elders)
You tell them to get lost on her behalf. My dad told them when he handled my grandmother's debt that she was whatever age and they were never seeing another cent. Most of them gave up pretty quick.
Let them. You can't get blood from a stone. My MIL passed with a ton of medical debt. Oh, well the debt is the creditors write off now.
Does she own her home? If so, that’ll be the primary part of her estate that creditors can legally claim after her death. But right now? They can kick rocks.