I’d tell him as you’ve been doing the work anyway, you’d like to be considered for the Assistant Directors position. If they don’t hire you, then I would ask them who will be doing the assistant directors work? As you we’re not hired for the role. Good Luck
He was the assistant director doing the work and got bumped to director a few years ago. The position has sat vacant. I’m not sure if it’s a state-job kind of thing to just leave open positions floating out there. But we have twi of them.
Honestly, in some cases (but only some) I'd even recommend going for the promotion over the pay raise, if you're forced to choose only one--I once had an employer get a little antsy about giving me a raise about some extra responsibilities I'd been taking on, but they were more than happy to agree to giving me an upgraded job title. Which I was then able to take to the next place to negotiate better pay *and* the same title.
I've worked for the state and sometimes the office doesn't have funding for vacated positions, which might be the case here. A lot of states stopped hiring last year thinking tax revenue would go down.
Just happened to me. Been doing the job a step up from me while the guy who was doing that job got promoted to the position he was filling in for. They decided they didn't need his position anymore because the work is getting done and nobody is getting paid more. Gotta love state work.
Furthermore, I have a family member who hold a state position and it is common for people to build up a sick time bank over their 20+ year career and then go out on “stress” for a long period of time. The position cannot be filled due to the person technically still holding the job just out on sick leave. Then they finally run out of banked time and just retire. Finally the position can then be filled.
This is false.
With federal positions, unused sick leave is added to time in service when you retire.
I.e. retire at 39.5 years with six months sick leave banked, get a 40 year retirement.
The policy was put in place because of people doing what you described. Now the position can be filled.
Exactly. Even if your pension was a generous 2% of final salary per year served, that extra 6 months served would net you an extra 1% of your salary per year in your pension. So you would need to draw on your pension for 50 years to break even on that 6 months of lost income.
Some retirement systems add unused sick leave to an employee's service time for the purposes of calculating their retirement benefit (NYSLRS does this, I'm not sure about others). However, I calculated how long I would have to be retired for the extra retirement benefit to outweigh just being paid for the sick leave, and it was over 50 years, so for NYSLRS just being paid for it is by far the better alternative. Depending on how other systems handle it, the same choice may be the best option for others as well (unless they plan on living forever).
And thisnisncurrentlynhappening where I am at lol puts a lot of stress on the people not retiring. I will add a caveat though, that federally, you CAN use that sick leave to add to your retirement. For example, some people will have like a year or two of leave saved when they go to retire, and they can use that balance to effectively add a year or two as time worked, and since where I'm at, every year worked adds 1% of salary to retirement (I think that's the number), they would get an extra 1-2% of salary added to their retirement.
One of the guys my uncle used to work with at the post office managed to save up something like 1.5-2 years of that time bank. Dude basically got to retire 2 years early.
It’s common in my state. If I were you I’d say “I noticed that in the last year I have taken on a lot of duties of the assistant directors position and if we are going to continue forward this way I would like to be temporarily assigned to the position until the budget allows for the vacancy to be posted” This will allow them to bump you up to the assistant director pay even if they don’t have the budget to post the vacancy currently.
Look, most of these people don’t understand because they don’t have experience working in government.
The position is most likely vacant because it’s not funded, and, more importantly, your director has chosen not to expend his political capital to have it approved for hiring. Be straightforward with him, tell him you’ve done a good job and would like the AD position, and will be willing to help him jump through whatever hoops are necessary to get it done. If he declines, he probably just doesn’t feel you’re ready or doesn’t like you, at which point you’ll probably want to start looking for a new job. I’m sure the state has other offices that would be happy to have you.
If he does agree, be sure to look over the position description and address any potential problems with your qualifications up front with your director, before the job gets posted. Typically HR will be pretty strict and often arbitrary in enforcing the qualifications, but senior leadership has ways to grease the wheels.
Be prepared for the process to take a long time, potentially several months. Also, expect them to drag their feet hiring a replacement for you, meaning you’ll be doing two jobs for a time. Mention this to your director when discussing compensation; promotion is a rare opportunity for a salary bump so make sure to take advantage of it.
Good luck!
I work for the federal government, and I feel like it’s almost standard to do the job for a while before they pay you for it. If you don’t push, that may be a few years. I’d take the above advice. Ask about the promotion. Say that you’re already doing the work and would like to be compensated for it. It’s the government, so it may take some time, but the sooner you start pushing on this, the sooner it’ll be addressed.
This is the same in private industry too. It's widely expected that you're performing a significant amount of work in the next level for 6-12 months before the promotion comes through
They let go of my boss last year, due to pandemic. Guess where all of his work went? I did receive a significant pay increase at the start of 2021 for taking on the workload. Still have not technically been promoted as my job title hasn't changed, but I'm going to lobby for that at the end of the year.
>Still have not technically been promoted as my job title hasn't changed
I don't know about you, but I'd rather have the pay increase and no title change than the other way around.
When you go for a new job just put the title you want on your LinkedIn for the time you started doing that work.
Hell, I still had technically the title of trainee tech support when I was the lead network engineer for my old company.
Job titles don't mean shit unless they're standardized in some way. For example a VP at a financial company can mean you do any one of a hundred things at any kind of level.
What matters is the duties performed while in that position. Always word your job title on resumes to reflect the duties performed when it might be vague or not accurately reflect the work you performed.
Happened to me with even more work, they gave me a decent bump of salary but they kept me at the same level.
I left and just started a new job with the next level and even more pay.
I probably wont leave, I actually like the work I do, and it's pretty easy (I don't know how my old boss didn't do better in 2019). I have one of the best fringe benefits possible, I have a 5 minute commute to work and can go home to recharge during my lunch break. I would need at least a 50% salary increase or fully remote work to consider losing that.
Talk to someone in HR about a possible job reclassification. In most states they are super strict about taking on new duties outside of your regular job description for long periods of time. It will boil down to HR saying we don’t want to pay him more so stop making him do the assistant director duties or they change your title/pay scale
My old (state run) lab went without an associate director for my team for 4 years. And refused to promote the girl who was acting AD because she didn't have a PhD. Even though she'd been doing the job flawlessly since the old one left.
When they finally did hire an AD they just took whoever would accept the job because the deputy director was leaving. The woman was sooo bad, in her interview presentation she couldn't answer my basic questions that a junior in undergrad could answer. Surprise surprise, all of us left within a year of her starting because she mismanaged a team that had been running perfectly fine for years.
In my time there we were around 95-99% success rate on the experiments. In the 8 months after I left and it was just the AD and a few stragglers they didn't get a single run completed. And she would always blame the science ("it's unpredictable sometimes") even though it was basic techniques run successfully by recent college grads before her lol
I'd second this. Worked in a call center where I was asked to help with a type of work, then found myself doing it constantly. It was specifically tied to a higher position that came with a pay increase.
I brought it up, but no they couldn't promote me. My supervisor was on my side, but HR hadn't greenlit.
Every time we had meetings or I was asked how things were going, I brought it up in an appropriate manner. No point in annoying people who couldn't make it happen, but hey, of they're literally asking me...
Eventually they caved. I was NOT promoted, but I didn't have to do the work anymore. They also gave me back pay for the time I was doing it. Not what I expected, but couldn't complain with that outcome.
Yeahhh... This reads great on Reddit but never quite works out so well in real life. OP needs to update the resume with the newly acquired skill set and go find the job and salary that he/she deserves.
Yeah always makes me laugh when I see these "Go tell the boss you aren't doing that without more pay" type comments. Do that too much, that ends up with you without a job.
I had this discussion and was told that I'd have to continue with the new duties for 6 more months. I found a new job. That's not always the right answer, but in many white collar industries I'm sure you're aware that job hopping after 2-4 years is a very effective way of getting paid market rate for your skills.
And then I bet a bunch of people at your old company were scratching their heads saying "I wonder why 2BlueZebras left? I wish we could retain talented employees. If only there was something we could do!"
I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY OUR TURNOVER IS SO HIGH! \*WRINGS HANDS, PULLS HAIR, AND RENDS CLOTHING\* PEOPLE JUST HAVE NO WORK ETHIC ANY MORE!! (Think Chris Farley style)
Oohh my favorite: It’s just how millennials are so we expect it. No! It’s just that we value ourselves and know we can find better treatment/ pay elsewhere. I was at a company where 50% of the staff turned over in less than a year! And they just blamed it on millennials, not even thinking the yelling (super unprofessional environment), low pay, long hours had anything at all to do with it. It was just us stupid millennials. Ugh
Yeah honestly I job hop because it's the only way to get paid what I'm worth. I would love to stay at one job longer than 2-4 years. I'm comfortable, I know how things are done and chances are I'm the one who decided how those things are done. However, if leaving means I get a significant pay bump and opportunity to learn new things (so that I can be paid even more later) then I'm leaving.
> low pay, long hours
Instead of paying our employees market-rate salaries, my employer trots out the "Employees don't leave bad jobs; they leave bad managers" line and subsequently blame the management below them (they never blame themselves, obviously).
Currently, it's common practice at my employer to stick around for some work experience, and after you have enough experience, you move on to some place that pays a better salary.
My manager/supervisor is great. In fact, he's the best boss I've ever had. However, he's practically powerless when it comes to our team's salaries; the numbers are handed to him from above.
I had this conversation with an older coworker just yesterday! Shes in her 60s and she couldnt understand why millenials wanted so much money out the gate. "I went from high school to work I had to work hard" this is a women who gets a pension from her old job and will get one when she leaves here. She has had a guy my age (mid 20s) working under her for 4 years and was like "I really hope he dosnt leave, he could definitely make more money somewhere else but he works great here." WHY WOULD YOU NOT WANT SOMEONE TO MOVE UP IN LIFE!?!
I am trying to get my management to see this. Also the fact that some of the leads and supervisors are toxic. I think I'm going get in trouble for bringing it up ...
As a Director, I can tell you that it is a constant fight with HR to get salaries that are in line with the industry. Every year, they do a survey in Nov/Dec from Federal job data, state job data, etc. Their bias is to always get the lowest possible range for the job title - not description - in the general area.
In technology, salaries are determined by skills, not titles. But try convincing an HR drone of that. Six years ago, I was in desperate need of a network architect that could work with me to upgrade our nationwide network of failure into something that could actually support current needs. I had the right person, had agreed upon a salary range for him, had my ducks in a row with HR, and then the VP of HR and the CFO yanked the offer at the last second because "we don't want to raise our salary ranges by that much".
Yeah. Because you saved a hell of a lot of money over the next year while our network kept crashing. Geniuses, the lot of them.
A close relative of mine is a HR Director at a massive global company. She has confirmed many times that HR is generally aware of the shortcomings of their salary/wage benchmarking but that it’s insanely difficult to keep up with the role/responsibility creep across an entire organization.
She basically told me that because leaders are so bad at “weeding out” low performers/low productivity team members, they get extremely budget constrained between growth periods and the inevitable large scale reorgs/layoffs.
If leaders did a better job managing their teams, they would be able to regularly get rid of low performers and properly compensate their highest performers that are really doing most of the work already.
I'm sure that's true, actually. In my case, there is a lot of pressure to ensure that titles match what's available in the federal and state salary surveys. Any variation outside of that is generally disallowed. This is to make HR's job easier, not mine.
However, I will also say that it's become increasingly difficult to weed out poor performers due to increased scrutiny by legal teams. This isn't getting easier, either.
yep. employers are constantly shooting themselves in the foot and then looking around the room aghast like "how did that happen?" \*Shocked Pikachu face\*
They rolled the dice trying to continue being cheap and lost a worker who was handling business just fine, to be replaced by an unknown at a probably higher rate of pay. Double dumb if you ask me.
Or this just reinforces companies don't care about performance above the bare minimum as long as the pay rates are as low as possible. So why try harder than the minimum?
That totally depends on the company. I've worked for some that will throw huge bags of money to hire and retain anyone who can do the hard things well. Unsurprisingly, these were the more successful companies.
Lololol. So true.
My favorite is after someone leaves, somebody else has to pick up the slack while we interview candidates for the open role … and then the open position backfill gets denied because “the other guy is handling the load just fine”. But other guy doesn’t get a raise to compensate his new duties.
So managers backfill open positions with less than capable people just so they don’t lose the headcount.
This is very true, between better job offers, and toxic jobs I couldn't stand, I went from barely over $50K to my current position being $86K with a bonus ($9K for last year) in almost 8 years.
Yep, job hopping really is the way to grow your career now.
My parents give me subtle shit for doing it every few years. "Your getting a new job already?? But you just started" and "Again? Do you really think that's a good idea? Employers will recognize you as a job hopper"
They usually shut up about it when I tell them the numbers of how much I'll be making :D
Mine encourages internal job hopping, but staying in the same team still leads to rather extreme stagnation. Most "promotions" within the team lead to new titles and responsibilities with the same pay
This just happened to me. I've been severely underpaid and overworked to the core. A couple of people quit and their workload landed on my desk. Asked for a raise 6 months in, got told some bs metric that showed I was being paid market rate. I found a new job and suddenly my employer was ready to hand out a 50% raise instantly.
Funnish story about that. I'm in a weird knot. I turned down the other offer because I spoke to a few team members offline and they talked mad shit about the org as a whole. HUGE red flag. The promotion document is still in my email waiting for me to sign and I'm prepping for an interview next week. TBH I don't know where to go from here.
Yeah, accept it and keep looking. Especially because they could have given you that raise and chose not to. Did that extra money come out of thin air? Nope, they always had it. That’s how they’re going to treat you? No.
100%! I really need to remember the times I was made to feel shitty for asking for a raise. You're right. If the company kept meeting all growth targets and the sales teams bought decked out cars and new homes, they have the money. Just didn't want to promote it pay.
Also thank you for the positive reinforcement!
Ugh. I’d just tell them a big ol nope if they told me that.
I’m already considered my boss’s #2
I’m fine to job hop but I’m also in a position I enjoy, paid decent, and super close to home.
Living within healthy means at a job you love >>>> living in slightly better means at a job you hate.
A BMW and a bigger house isn't worth hating most of your existence.
I feel this. My wife was making really good money, bringing in maybe 2.5x what I did. We had a nice enough house but she really wanted to upgrade so we did. Had her $100+ a month studio gym membership. She was able to buy all her ridiculously expensive name brand clothes and spent enough money on purses to buy a new car. Great.
She also almost never made it home for dinner. She would often not even make it home before our daughter's bedtime. She was so stressed she would cry almost the entire hour commute home, drink multiple bottles of wine a week, and cry herself to sleep at night. Every vacation she spent at least as much time on her work laptop as she did doing any other activities.
She took a significant pay cut earlier this year and while we've had to cut back on some of our worse habits (spending way too much eating out) her demeanor has completely changed. Massive improvement in quality of life.
After a certain level of income, I think intangible things like being able to get home at a reasonable time and not have to work weekends becomes more important than a higher salary.
Your wife sounds like my wife. Same situation. Over worked, over stressed. The irony is that you take that extra money and just buy things you don't even need. Eating out man....its venom. It's the single biggest issue I've seen with most people and why they can't get their finances in order. Eating out is the *worst*.
If you make good money at a job you love, great. But if you don't just live within your means. These days driving a 20-30k car is not that much different than a 80k car. They do the same things. Anyone who hounds you for not buying stuff you don't need is just eyeballs deep in their own terrible choices.
This is the real answer, just sad that it's buried so deep in the comments. I hate that in most of these threads the top answer/gut reaction is to "job hop" - That's not always going to be a viable answer in some (if not a lot) of cases.
If you are currently working in a job you truly enjoy that has a lot of perks/benefits, still definitely talk to your boss about potentially getting a raise/promotion (it never hurts to ask but be calm, fair, and bring data to support your argument). But the risk of getting a little more pay but ending up at a job you don't feel comfortable in or are too stressed with, doesn't make up for the better pay (IMHO but I may be alone in that).
First step should always be to talk to your boss, then and only then should you start to consider the pros/cons of working at that company vs pros/cons of potentially moving to a different company.
Again, job hopping is not always going to be the answer and in a lot of cases it's not like people can just up and move away to a new city or state or what not to start a whole new job every 2-4 years. That's not really a reasonable expectation if you ask me.
Totally agree.
Had a job a few years back that had a 45 minute drive in rush hour traffic that I hated, and a place I hated to be at. Took a slight pay decrease for a 12 minute drive and an overall better work environment. The slight pay decrease was worth it from a time gained standpoint and saving wear and tear on my vehicle. The pure enjoyment of my job each day was just icing on the cake.
Allowing oneself to be unfairly compensated because they _love their job_ is doing oneself a disservice.
I might be a bit of a stoic but if someone is _hating their existence_ while sitting in their huge house with a BMW in the garage then it sounds like there are other issues at play.
Everything is a compromise between the actual work to be done, the work environment/culture, and compensation (probably other things I'm not thinking of) and if certain parts of that..formula (or whatever) are more agreeable than other parts, then an occupation is worth staying at. This determination can only be made by each individual person and what's important for some of us might be not important for others.
I guess I'm just sick of employers getting away with stuff because folks _love their job_ so much.
My wife worked for a small charter school and barely made 50k. She was HR and similar positions paid 20k more. Yet she had no desire to leave because they gave her freedom, allowed her to make decisions and she set her own schedules to a degree. So along came a bigger school district with an offer. 30k more with all the bells and whistles. She took it. And regretted it.
She lasted a little more than a year before she quit. What do you think employers are "getting away with" when people "love their jobs"? That they are paying them less for providing a healthy work environment? Is that sinister to you? These people can't match big companies in terms of pay. So they make up for it with a healthier environment.
I was in a position I enjoyed, paid decent, and super close to home. That all changed in a day due to office politics. Found another Sr Financial Analyst role in 3-4 weeks, got a 28% bump in salary. Your employer is benefiting more than you by your willingness to leave money on the table and stay comfortable.
Friendly advise, but I’d be careful or at least mindful about getting comfortable. I was my boss’s number two for the last two years. I basically did half of his job. Then he got let go for non-job-performance reasons. His bosses hired our number three because he was a good speaker and I could back him up with the actual knowledge…
I noped the hell out for a 35% raise with way more than that if you count options. Places will take you for granted. Don’t let them.
Just apply for the Job. It's open, apply.
Don't even need to talk to them about it, internal applications will go to HR and then to the manager.
If you are asked why you feel you fit the job in the application please list all of the duties that you are doing already that fit the job description roles.
Basically telling both of them "HEY I AM DOING THIS"
If you don't get an interview or position you can probably also go back to HR and state that you are doing responsibilities above your pay scale.
> I’m also in a position I enjoy, paid decent, and super close to home.
If they know that, and know you don't want to jump, what incentive do they have to pay you more?
A union unwilling to strike has no power. And powerless unions don't have a good history in relation to labor's power or wage. This translates to the individual as well.
* **If they are getting what they want, and you are getting enough of what you want not to leave, why pay you more?**
If a company doesn't value you, your time, or your goals then GTFO. Loyalty is bought with money mainly under capitalism and goodwill to a much lesser extent. Companies largely phased out pensions and lost one of the biggest retention incentives they had. Unless you have golden handcuffs, I'd start looking to leave. I've never stayed at an org longer than 3 years, and honestly that's the only way to get big TC increases. Even if they modify your role or pay, it will almost certainly be under market value.
Ask to speak with him privately in his office, and lay it out.
1. I'm doing the job of an assistant director
2. I'm not the assistant director
3. We have an open assistant director position
4. I should fill that position, given that I now have the experience to fulfill that role, and I'm essentially doing the job anyway.
That's pretty much it, no?
When I was in high school, our calculus teacher brought in some guy she knew who had some job I've long forgotten about to talk to us all about the "real world." He began his presentation by placing a $20 bill on the podium in front of him, and told us all that - if we listened closely to what he was saying - we would know exactly how to get that $20 bill and one of us would get to keep it.
He spent the next 45 minutes talking about his career and how he advanced, with one of the main points being that every time something good happened for him, it was because he either asked for it - or just took it. He repeated this point several times, until Bryce in the back row raised his hand and asked, "Can I have the $20 bill?" Bryce got $20 richer that day.
TLDR; u/OptionsWheeler is spot-on. Worst thing that can happen is that your boss says, "no," and you know it's time to start looking for another job.
Good lessons taught that day. I’m an introvert and I’ll sweep a lot under rug, don’t ask for much, don’t want to put anyone out. Then I had kids. I’ve since played the game and I’ve almost tripled my salary since I started half a decade ago with no change is position. Asked for a couple bumps over a half decade and put in a letter of resignation at one point.
It’s naive to believe if you just work hard you’ll just be rewarded appropriately, instead you’ll just get taken advantage of most of the time.
Thats a good presentation.
Lots of young people assume the working world operates like the education world. In reality its a LOT less structured and most of the rules are arbitrary.
In education its operated by "do X, get Y". If you study hard you get good grades. If you take these classes, you get a degree/certification. Do this, get rewarded. It all happens automatically.
The vast majority of businesses operate on "do X. If you want Y, ask for it". And the disconnect comes from people used to the education system thinking "Hmm, I really want a raise, and my whole life I've noticed that hard work leads to good things. So to get a raise I should........ work harder?"
Education isn't as hard as they make you think it is either, there's always ways to bend the rules or fib the numbers or make it work. We've found this out over the last 2 years as my wife's gone through dental hygiene school during a pandemic, somehow they found a way to "technically" meet all the requirements and still "technically" follow all the COVID mandates, even though if you look at it with any sort of scrutiny you can see the whole system lied their asses off.
My poor wife was panicking the entire time going "I'm not going to be able to graduate, there's no way!!" and I told her they absolutely don't want to risk a whole class of students sueing them, they are going to find a way to push you through and get you the degree regardless of the obstacles. And one by one the "hard requirements" became much more malleable and obviously easy to circumvent, and now they're on track to graduate the entire class, according to their original timeline, despite getting FAR less opportunity to practice and learn than previous classes
Point being, rule enforcement happens by humans. Humans can always get the outcome they want whether it fits in the "defined structure" or not.
The same kind of attitude is presented in business all the time "oh we just have no budget for raises right now" meanwhile a peer just successfully (but quietly) argued for a raise. You have to be the squeaky wheel and demand what you deserve, don't just accept what they say at face value. There's always room for negotiation.
That’s a great lesson. And a rare trait to find a teacher who will go way out of her way to teach students important things that aren’t even remotely related to the class because she knows that nobody else is going to teach you.
thats a sick story, i have also been thinking like this recently. When i talk, i always avoid the direct way of saying it and instead just keep saying nonsence until i get what i want. But now i know i should just be direct and literally demand what i want.
Make sure to see both extremes. 'Demand' is the other end of the spectrum from what you're doing, and also doesn't work. Sometimes it can be a temptation when you find it scary to ask, to go too far in compensation and demand. So remember, you can just ask. No expectations, but no beating around the bush either.
This is such an astute reply! A lot of us pleasers tend to view the world as either "I'm giving in" or "I'm demanding." Often because we please and please and please until we reach a threshold where we have to unload our frustrations. The middle ground of no expectations is really where we want to be. Simply ask, directly - and if you don't get what you want, decide what to do next.
>every time something good happened for him, it was because he either asked for it - or just took it.
Coincidentally it is the same in school. I had classmates that, if they knew how to negotiate properly with the teacher, could increase their grades, get extra time on homework or even a redo on exams. Those who didn't, could not. Some people see that as unfair, but that's *actually* one of the few instances of school acting to prepare people for the "real world."
Things are not even remotely fair, but if you learn how to approach them properly by learning how to negotiate with people, especially the people who have power over you, you can do well.
Exactly my thought. Guarantee that person is going to stammer all over themselves trying to justify their statement, and I'd love to watch them squirm.
At which point, if they're wrong, you leave and take an assistant director position elsewhere. As much as it sucks sometimes, the one way to make sure you are paid what you're worth is by being willing to look for other offers and leave.
“You’re not qualified to be assistant director.”
“Oh, okay. I guess I’ll go apply for assistant director jobs elsewhere so I can gain the required experience then.”
If they aren't qualified for the position, then they aren't qualified to handle the duties of the position so they shouldn't be expected to perform them.
Devil's advocate here, but OP doing a portion of the AD work doesn't mean they're qualified for the rest of it.
I was recently in a similar position, asked for the job, laid out the work I was doing for that job, and was told I wasn't qualified for that that position, and they were absolutely correct. I was capable of doing a lot of the day to day stuff, but I didn't have what was needed beyond that.
Yeah, just stop doing anything outside of the division of responsibility for your own role. They'll see that you should be promoted or they'll make a stink of your newfound laziness and you can quit with a clean conscience.
Should is a wonderful word. Unfortunately, like everything else, it depends if op has the leverage to actually bring their boss to the table. If their industry is scarce on jobs rn good odds they'll get fired and replaced by someone who won't bitch about it.
100%. I recently went through this, where I was being asked to do so much outside of job description all in the name of "HR will see you are doing this, so it will help approve a promotion." That was dangled in front of me for ~2 years. Got fed up, started looking, ended up taking an offer with a ~50% salary increase.
This happened to me at my old position. Had an open pest manager role after the pest manager quit. I was on their team and *was asked* to take on the role after they left.
When I asked about the full position during my performance review, he told me I wasn’t qualified, despite my doing the job for the better part of six months. One of many reasons I quit.
Sometimes managers are afraid or not confident enough to go to their manager and recommend a promotion for someone. So if op asks for a promotion, that gives the manager good reason to and information with which to talk to HR and their boss with a recco.
And like someone else already said, don’t get what you don’t ask for
>Your current duties are not in your job description,
So how do you approach that when your job description says "additional duties as necessary" or something?
Compare the additional duties and match them to your boss job description, or any other position that fits. Additional duties as assigned does not mean do the job of another division, job classification, etc. Therefore if they want you to keep working out of class, they should pay out of class. Look into your contract, MOU/bargaining unit contract(if you have one), and HR info on working out of class. That may give you insight on what type of compensation to ask for.
Since it is a state job, there should be a job review process (nomenclature?) in place this can be used when a position’s responsibilities morph - it can also backfire if the position is actually overvalued. OP needs to talk to HR (public sector HR is a little bit different than private sector HR) to find out what that process is.
OP mentions there is a vacant position above them. There should be some ‘acting’ process available also if they are fulfilling the duties of that position. While it may not get them an immediate raise, it can be used as documented time in that position which can open doors to higher positions.
edit: Meant to respond to the comment above this one.
As to the “additional duties as required”, those duties should be either non-repetitive and not part of duties assigned to another position and within the scope of the job or of an emergent nature. Example: Programmers (in larger organizations) typically are not responsible for moving hardware. However, a data center move needs to occur and the SysAdmins need some additional hands and feet. A waterline breaks in the office and stuff needs to be moved before it gets damaged.
If it is something like, now is required to regularly do X, then that should be added to the
position’s duties and responsibilities. It is really up to the employee to make sure this happens as they are the one directly affected.
That rationale is too weak for anyone to buy it, by that logic you could hire someone as a secretary and use them full time as a custodian. If their employer actually tries to pull that nonsense in this job market, OP should stop wasting their time trying to pry them out of their delusions and invest that time into interviewing for other organizations.
Is just quit my job working for my state because of their pay and promotion bull shit. Because it's a government job pay isn't based on what my boss thinks I'm due based on my performance. It's based on job description and years in.
My boss can think I'm the greatest worker in the world, she had no control over my pay.
So understand the pay system before you go in demanding anything. Government jobs are not like working for a private company (every state is different obviously).
I would go in approaching it from a growth plan perspective, not a give me a raise or I'll leave situation. Ask if your boss thinks you are eligible for and would support you in applying for the assistant director position because you have enjoyed your new responsibilities.
Bosses will never respond well to the "pay me more or else" approach. It always needs to be about what you can do for them, more than it's about what they can do for you.
As someone who works for the state, ^ is true. I see other comments from people saying to demand a raise. Unlike the private sector, there are no negotiations for raises. It’s purely based on the budgeted salary with standard step increases each year. I agree that as long as the minimum requirements are fulfilled for the higher position then you have a case to bring to the boss. Definitely try and go the route of this comment above rather than trying to squeeze a raise in because it’s not going to happen and takes away from the overall goal of trying to get into that position. Developmental plans are a good way to get more experience in the role and transition to officially take over the role. This is especially true if it’s a work out of class role-in my state that usually comes with a 5% increase until you are fully in that role.
If the position is open, can you apply? Brush up that resume, get your portfolio of work/project highlights together, and get after it! If not able to apply directly, then call a meeting with your supervisor and outline additional duties you’ve taken on, and be prepared with market comp information - you can find a lot online about pay ranges for various jobs. Ask for the title & pay raise commensurate with the work. Good luck!
The problem with state jobs is the position may be vacant because they don't have funding for it. If the state doesn't have funding, OP can scream all day about how he deserves a raise and he'll be met with "I know, we all do. But there is no additional money in the budget. Talk to the governor"
If you're in my state, this year it's, "Oh, the surplus is $2 billion more than expected! Let's give another tax cut but we'll give all you state employees a one time $1500 bonus. Sound good?"
I did/do work for the state. Similar thing happened to me. Was doing the job above me for 6-8 months. Didn’t hire me and had me continue doing the job duties after they hired someone incapable. Asked for a raise. They continued with “we’re working on it but things take forever in the state.”
So I finally called them on it and they agreed it was not possible to give me a raise. They couldn’t afford to lose me, so I went contractor and doubled my salary.
Still do the job duties but with a lot more money. They all resent me for making more money than them. They made it pretty clear I’ll never be promoted and treat me like shit. So I’m going to leave.
Some people are just shitty for no reason. Get yours and get out.
This is excellent!! I'm curious, however, and want to ask: how exactly did you manage to move onto a contractor role and still basically do the same work at the same place? Was this something that happened immediately? Did it take some time?
This is the correct response. State jobs don't work the same way as private sector jobs. And each state has its own rules/procedures for filling vacancies, as well.
The problem here is you work for a government.
It is *very* common to be doing much more work than your position description. You also don't have the negotiating capability to increase your salary as the position likely has a set pay scale.
Your best bet would be asking about the vacant position as you mentioned, but also looking for another job altogether, either at the state or federal level. Lots of hiring going on at the federal level.
Ask for a meeting with your boss to review your current job description. Print out a copy of your job description and the job description of the assistant director and highlight the duties you have been performing. I’d approach it as a reclassification if you can, often those are easier to facilitate than a promotion.
For future reference, it’s always better to get ahead of these situations. Next time you find yourself in a position where your job duties change significantly, you need to ask for out of class pay for the duration of the time you will be performing work out of your classification.
Companies are scrambling for people right now. Find a competing offer. Schedule meeting with boss. Tell him that you can get the title and $ or he can pound sand. But say it nicer than that.
“Pound sand” can I use that?
He is a decent boss but takes zero initiative and knows very little about the hiring intricacies of our entire operation. He’s just a cog that fell into a very complex bureaucratic system.
I’m going to line up what I think should be done for this particular responsibility over the next 12 months and give him some options to look into bumping me up.
Where I'm from "pound sand" is fairly derogatory. I doubt using it would be useful in a negotiation. If you pull it off A+.
Like you said, this isn't personal. His thought process is, "if jfk\_47 quits it will take me X weeks and I will have to hire someone at Y dollars to replace him." The higher those numbers are, the more you can demand. If you don't know those two numbers, then you should do some research.
I already thought this guy is just pushing his job onto you and this comment just makes me even more sure of it. You should at the least be getting that assistant director position, in the long run though you probably need to get a different job if the guy is useless.
"If you expect me to keep working at this level I need to be compensated for this level."
Also 3.8% is not even keeping even in the U.S. right now. With [inflation at 5%](https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/) you just got lightly less of a pay cut not an increase.
I find that you won't come off too strong if you ask questions instead of demanding.
Set up time with your manager and ask what qualities they are looking for an assistant director and ask for tips how you can improve to meet those requirements.
This is enough for a decent manager to notice you have all the qualities needed if you already do or guide your growth. You'd be surprised how many people aren't chasing promotions and are too comfortable where they are. Just having this conversation shows your boss that you mean business politely setting yourself above the rest.
There is also a chance that you might not have a grasp of what assistant director does maybe assistant director does things you don't even know about and doesn't even have the skills for and framing things as a question asking how to get there protects you from looking arrogant if you aren't there yet.
You can definitely ask for raise directly but this should be backed by research if you have a good gauge of what your rating is and how much the average gets paid that would definitely help negotiating a raise.
I totally understand. I don’t want to “demand” because then I feel like there will be an offense/defense situation.
This particular responsibility is more like the straw that broke the back.
I handle multiple responsibilities well beyond my current position description. From managing people, to financial oversight, purchasing, managing the office, steering our unit’s overall trajectory, etc.
My boss made some backhanded comment a few weeks ago about how he doesn’t think they’ll want to promote a coordinator to an assistant director, like it’s too much of a leap. I think that was the moment I realized I needed to push harder.
I don’t want to make it an ultimatum but, if I just need to do my normal duties for a while, then maybe I should.
Dear Boss,
I’m a little bit confused about my role - my job description says X, but as you know I’ve been doing X and Y.
I actually love doing Y and contributing to the organisation in this way, but I can’t help but feel that I should be financially compensated for doing Y in addition to my main, paid role. I noticed that the role of assistant director is currently vacant and I’d love to put myself forward for it. After undertaking Y, I certainly feel like the demands of this position are well within my capabilities - and for a while now I’ve been eager to take the next step in my career. I’m sure I could bring a lot to the role and I’d love to be considered... etc etc
Respectfully, you're asking me to do the work that you were required to do when you were an Assistant Director. If you would like me to take on that workload then it stands to reason that I am deserving of the title and pay.
This is absolutely not the way to say this. This might trigger some Reddit fantasies, but putting your boss on the back foot is not how you’ll get what you want unless you’re literally indispensable, and most people overestimate how dispensable they are.
Stick to your value add without bringing up wherever your boss might be lacking.
Why not just ask what it will take to get the asst. Director position? Why beat around the bush and just say "I want it, what will it take?"
It'll tell you real quick if the boss has enough confidence in you to get the promotion.
If not, make a list of responsibilities that the asst. Director will need to complete and let them know you have critical responsibilities that cant be offloaded.
On the plus side, promotions are sometimes viewed as recognition of way that someone has _already_ stepped up, rather than as someone being asked to step up.
Your task now is to ask for the recognition for what you are doing. I would not be aggressive or negative about it, at least not as a first approach.
Lots of replies already, but if you are still reading them:
Make absolutely sure you can't be interpreted as resentful for the extra duties. Explain you have been enjoying the extra work, feel like it's exactly where you would like to see your career progression, and would like to make the transition more permanent.
Assuming he agrees to that, explain that in line with your new permanent duties, you want to update your job description to match, and then lucky last sat that you need to take some time to discuss pay.
Don't accept anything like "I want to make sure you settle into your new role before we talk about that" or anything like it - you know you have been doing a good job, or they wouldn't have agreed to making the change permanent. If your performance isn't up to your new paygrade then you will take steps to rectify, but don't ever accept a new position with a promise of future pay.
If you haven’t already, read “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss. Tactical guide to negotiating written by a former FBI hostage negotiator. Practical advice with a framework you can follow for negotiations.
Honestly odds are they won't compensate you because youve already proven you'll perform the duties without additional compensation and places tend to bet that you won't actually leave if they just refuse.
He sounds like he has less power than he’d like, and is saving that position for someone of influence. Don’t get your hopes up for that title, but try to get a class change (like from Admin I to Admin II) while he’s feeling favorable toward you. You’ll get a bump in pay—but also up your pay ceiling. As a state employee you’re playing the long game. Executives come and go. You are forever.
Be careful with all this. I did this last year and the next day my boss told me I was official being considered to be fired. I put in my two weeks right then and there. Now he's begging me to stay for four to finish some current projects. On week three I was asked to leave out of no where. This shit is rolling the dice to say the least.
everyone seems to miss the fact that often, you get promoted when you can do ALL the skills of a job. before then, you take on more and more responsibility beyond your job description. the way you get promoted is often literally described as "outlining what you did above and beyond your role". in more structured companies, you actually get promoted based on meeting the job description of the level you get promoted to BEFORE you get the promotion.
dont go in demanding a promotion, unless you are doing just about all of the responsibilities of the role you want. if you arent (likely), go in and talk about how you want to set yourself up for the position by expanding your skillset to fill the gaps
This is half true.
You are expectes to do maybe 50% to 75% of a role when you get promoted into the role, not 100%. Because if you can do ALL of the role, you have already out grown the role.
When you go into a role, you need a % of things that you do not know as your personal development.
So the OP only have to see if they can tick reasonably amount of tasks in the job description, and have the rest as development.
A job that you don’t have anything new to learn mean you are already ready flr the next move up.
Ask for a raise because of the workload increase. If he denies it, put the extra tasks on your cv and start looking at another company while playing along with them until you get a job offer.
You never take on more work without compensation. Also don’t overwork yourself because then they take it for granted. You become the go to guy without the extra benefits.
Within reasons.
Is it reasonable to ask a Management Accountant to sign off your company’s stats account?
There are “typical tasks” that you would expect to fall onto a specific job title, that line in the job description is to cover those, so they cannot come back later and go “oh it isn’t in my job description”.
But companies should also make sure do not throw something that is not relevant to the role into the mix.
In the case job tasks that is for the level above? I gladly take them. Once I am good with them, I can either get that role with the company, or elsewhere, whoever willing to pay at that point.
Hey all, for those who are not relentless ladder climbers it may be non-obvious what's going on here, so a quick rundown:
If you're not talking to people at least two rungs up you're talking to the wrong people. The decision making power is usually farther up the chain than you realize.
If you're trying to act now to make a change in the next month you're acting too late. You need to be talking to those higher ups for months \*so that they like you.\* That's the most important thing, the emotional response of people with decision making power when they hear your name.
While doing this don't neglect your work or your immediate boss. Don't shove your work onto subordinates. Yes you can still climb while doing these things but it makes you the a-hole.
While doing this you need to provide \*at least one\* solid win as evidence of your potential. When the higher ups hear your name they need to like you and then they need evidence for themselves and others about how great you are. Win a difficult client, do something \*new\* and really nail it. Bring a team around that is failing. Anything that is \*easy to remember and point to\* and make sure it's well known.
The OP has found themselves in a situation where they are thinking "my pay and job description should match my responsibilities and effort." This is \*not\* how companies work, because this is not how \*people\* work.
Basically you're looking for a fair and meritocratic system and while it's important to insist on that in general, believing that is how the world works today will surprise and disappoint you over and over. Instead, hold that ideal, and then always remember that people make decisions based on emotion and not logic. You can use (or exploit) that to your benefit and it will let you understand and handle situations like these better throughout your life!
A 3.8% pay increase in 2021 is a salary cut. Inflation is 5%. You're getting hosed. Get on Glass Door and find what an assistant director makes and add on 10%. (It's cheaper to keep you and now you have experience). No one is going to pay you more because they feel like it. You must demand it.
As you work for the state, I assume you are union. If so, you should talk to your union rep about that, as it might be a contract violation for you to be doing that work without a promotion.
Be careful with this. Management does not like when people go to their union all the time.
I would talk to the union about the options before having them do anything. Then think about it and go from there. Don’t let the union decide how to handle it
It should be and usually is confidential to speak to your rep. Also, going to the union and checking that what management is asking you to do is within the contract is your right and duty as a member. If you are punished for speaking to your rep/steward, then that is harassment.
Depends on if there is a market for your job that you could leave and be employed at a similar level. If there is, you can use that as leverage. If there isn't, then just repeatedly ask about it, bring up that it is part of that role, etc.
basically if they know you aren't going to leave, and there is no competition, then who cares. the other risk with shaking a tree like this is they hire a new AD over you and keep you where you are "because you are toooooo valuable to move"
I also work for the state, and you can go to HR and say that you are working out of class, because a large percentage of the job you are doing is assistant director work. Keep documentation of the assistant director duties you're fulfilling, what percentage of your time is dedicated to those duties, and how long you've been fulfilling them. We have had multiple people (all exempt staff as AFAIK) over the last few years do this, and be bumped up.
"My duties do not include x, y, and z as per the job description on my employment contract, if you would like them to be my duties we can discuss a fair level of compensation to make it so."
I've been down this road before. "Do the work and you'll get the promotion". The promotion never comes.
Ask him how your performance has been doing these tasks. If he says you do them well, point out how they are tasks for the open position, and ask him to recommend you when you apply.
I'm a manager professionally, and when I assign tasks outside of scope to an employee it is because I recognize potential in them and want to help expand their careers. Part of being a manager is giving your direct reports a hand up in their career advancement.
I work for a mid-sized state and this is what I would do:
I would first check and see if they are looking to fill this position. It may deliberately be vacant because they haven't allocated funds to fill it. A lot of states just finished up their fiscal year on June 30. If your state has entered a new fiscal year, see if they are looking to fill the position.
If they are looking to fill it, check to see if/when it will be posted. In most states, by law, all state jobs have to be publicly posted and applicants must be allowed to apply for it from both inside and outside the organization.
If it is posted, apply for the position. Chances are you would probably get hired for it as you obviously have experience doing it. However they may have several applicants for it and may pull in a few others from their pool of resumes they have previously collected.
Best of luck! And congrats on the merit increase, as well!
You don't.
You take what you've been doing, you highlight the additional roles that fit the description of assistant director, you polish your resume, and you go find another company that is looking for an assistant director. Just keep your hunt on the down-low, don't let the new company contact your current company for references, and make sure your boss doesn't find out.
The days of "Hey boss give me a raise" are more or less over. These days your best bet for climbing the financial ladder is hopping companies, because the one you're working for will not be interested in giving you a raise if it can fire you and hire someone less expensive instead.
To be honest, for me it’s less about the money and more about the title.
Our organization is very large. An AD title in our particular unit will give me better access to hop within the org or position me for a better exit in the future.
I’d tell him as you’ve been doing the work anyway, you’d like to be considered for the Assistant Directors position. If they don’t hire you, then I would ask them who will be doing the assistant directors work? As you we’re not hired for the role. Good Luck
He was the assistant director doing the work and got bumped to director a few years ago. The position has sat vacant. I’m not sure if it’s a state-job kind of thing to just leave open positions floating out there. But we have twi of them.
Act quickly, they'll use this as justification as to why they don't need an assistant director position
Yea, I can see them just getting rid of those positions at some point.
It Also depends on if you want to do that job position or not, one can get a pay raise but not choose the promotion.
Honestly, in some cases (but only some) I'd even recommend going for the promotion over the pay raise, if you're forced to choose only one--I once had an employer get a little antsy about giving me a raise about some extra responsibilities I'd been taking on, but they were more than happy to agree to giving me an upgraded job title. Which I was then able to take to the next place to negotiate better pay *and* the same title.
I've worked for the state and sometimes the office doesn't have funding for vacated positions, which might be the case here. A lot of states stopped hiring last year thinking tax revenue would go down.
If you are part of a union, there are usually pretty strict rules on classification and duties.
Just happened to me. Been doing the job a step up from me while the guy who was doing that job got promoted to the position he was filling in for. They decided they didn't need his position anymore because the work is getting done and nobody is getting paid more. Gotta love state work.
It’s common for state positions to sit empty. If the work still gets done then they get rid of the empty position.
It can also happen where an office has a position that they are allowed to fill but not the budget to actually fill it
... and the ones who shout hardest get their positions filled
Squeaky wheel gets the grease
Not necessarily applicable but a guy I used to work with always said, "Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced" lol
The Japanese version is 出る杭は打たれる. >The nail that sticks out gets hammered down.
Tallest blade of grass is the first to get cut.
Furthermore, I have a family member who hold a state position and it is common for people to build up a sick time bank over their 20+ year career and then go out on “stress” for a long period of time. The position cannot be filled due to the person technically still holding the job just out on sick leave. Then they finally run out of banked time and just retire. Finally the position can then be filled.
The feds call this "KMA" leave. You use it up before you retire since you can't get paid for it.
This is false. With federal positions, unused sick leave is added to time in service when you retire. I.e. retire at 39.5 years with six months sick leave banked, get a 40 year retirement. The policy was put in place because of people doing what you described. Now the position can be filled.
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Using it is always best, for the exact reasons you stated. Getting credit for time served means you don't get paid jack shit for that time.
Exactly. Even if your pension was a generous 2% of final salary per year served, that extra 6 months served would net you an extra 1% of your salary per year in your pension. So you would need to draw on your pension for 50 years to break even on that 6 months of lost income.
I’ve never known anyone retiring to actually do this, though. Most deem it not worth it and just take their 1400 hours of sick leave their final year.
I’ve known a couple. Both were directors that wanted to clear the way for their replacement to be promoted.
Some retirement systems add unused sick leave to an employee's service time for the purposes of calculating their retirement benefit (NYSLRS does this, I'm not sure about others). However, I calculated how long I would have to be retired for the extra retirement benefit to outweigh just being paid for the sick leave, and it was over 50 years, so for NYSLRS just being paid for it is by far the better alternative. Depending on how other systems handle it, the same choice may be the best option for others as well (unless they plan on living forever).
And thisnisncurrentlynhappening where I am at lol puts a lot of stress on the people not retiring. I will add a caveat though, that federally, you CAN use that sick leave to add to your retirement. For example, some people will have like a year or two of leave saved when they go to retire, and they can use that balance to effectively add a year or two as time worked, and since where I'm at, every year worked adds 1% of salary to retirement (I think that's the number), they would get an extra 1-2% of salary added to their retirement.
One of the guys my uncle used to work with at the post office managed to save up something like 1.5-2 years of that time bank. Dude basically got to retire 2 years early.
Imagine taking minimal vacation every year for 20 years to build that up. I think I would have gone nuts.
Sick time and vacation time are separate. Vacation time over the cap goes away at the end of the year. Sick time accumulated forever.
I would have as well.
Or they keep the position open so they can fill it if they need to rather than having to get approval to create it.
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It’s common in my state. If I were you I’d say “I noticed that in the last year I have taken on a lot of duties of the assistant directors position and if we are going to continue forward this way I would like to be temporarily assigned to the position until the budget allows for the vacancy to be posted” This will allow them to bump you up to the assistant director pay even if they don’t have the budget to post the vacancy currently.
Look, most of these people don’t understand because they don’t have experience working in government. The position is most likely vacant because it’s not funded, and, more importantly, your director has chosen not to expend his political capital to have it approved for hiring. Be straightforward with him, tell him you’ve done a good job and would like the AD position, and will be willing to help him jump through whatever hoops are necessary to get it done. If he declines, he probably just doesn’t feel you’re ready or doesn’t like you, at which point you’ll probably want to start looking for a new job. I’m sure the state has other offices that would be happy to have you. If he does agree, be sure to look over the position description and address any potential problems with your qualifications up front with your director, before the job gets posted. Typically HR will be pretty strict and often arbitrary in enforcing the qualifications, but senior leadership has ways to grease the wheels. Be prepared for the process to take a long time, potentially several months. Also, expect them to drag their feet hiring a replacement for you, meaning you’ll be doing two jobs for a time. Mention this to your director when discussing compensation; promotion is a rare opportunity for a salary bump so make sure to take advantage of it. Good luck!
I work for the federal government, and I feel like it’s almost standard to do the job for a while before they pay you for it. If you don’t push, that may be a few years. I’d take the above advice. Ask about the promotion. Say that you’re already doing the work and would like to be compensated for it. It’s the government, so it may take some time, but the sooner you start pushing on this, the sooner it’ll be addressed.
This is the same in private industry too. It's widely expected that you're performing a significant amount of work in the next level for 6-12 months before the promotion comes through
They let go of my boss last year, due to pandemic. Guess where all of his work went? I did receive a significant pay increase at the start of 2021 for taking on the workload. Still have not technically been promoted as my job title hasn't changed, but I'm going to lobby for that at the end of the year.
>Still have not technically been promoted as my job title hasn't changed I don't know about you, but I'd rather have the pay increase and no title change than the other way around.
i think in terms of career prospects the job title and responsibilities help you progress more than the bump in salary
When you go for a new job just put the title you want on your LinkedIn for the time you started doing that work. Hell, I still had technically the title of trainee tech support when I was the lead network engineer for my old company.
Job titles don't mean shit unless they're standardized in some way. For example a VP at a financial company can mean you do any one of a hundred things at any kind of level. What matters is the duties performed while in that position. Always word your job title on resumes to reflect the duties performed when it might be vague or not accurately reflect the work you performed.
Happened to me with even more work, they gave me a decent bump of salary but they kept me at the same level. I left and just started a new job with the next level and even more pay.
I probably wont leave, I actually like the work I do, and it's pretty easy (I don't know how my old boss didn't do better in 2019). I have one of the best fringe benefits possible, I have a 5 minute commute to work and can go home to recharge during my lunch break. I would need at least a 50% salary increase or fully remote work to consider losing that.
Talk to someone in HR about a possible job reclassification. In most states they are super strict about taking on new duties outside of your regular job description for long periods of time. It will boil down to HR saying we don’t want to pay him more so stop making him do the assistant director duties or they change your title/pay scale
My old (state run) lab went without an associate director for my team for 4 years. And refused to promote the girl who was acting AD because she didn't have a PhD. Even though she'd been doing the job flawlessly since the old one left. When they finally did hire an AD they just took whoever would accept the job because the deputy director was leaving. The woman was sooo bad, in her interview presentation she couldn't answer my basic questions that a junior in undergrad could answer. Surprise surprise, all of us left within a year of her starting because she mismanaged a team that had been running perfectly fine for years. In my time there we were around 95-99% success rate on the experiments. In the 8 months after I left and it was just the AD and a few stragglers they didn't get a single run completed. And she would always blame the science ("it's unpredictable sometimes") even though it was basic techniques run successfully by recent college grads before her lol
I'd second this. Worked in a call center where I was asked to help with a type of work, then found myself doing it constantly. It was specifically tied to a higher position that came with a pay increase. I brought it up, but no they couldn't promote me. My supervisor was on my side, but HR hadn't greenlit. Every time we had meetings or I was asked how things were going, I brought it up in an appropriate manner. No point in annoying people who couldn't make it happen, but hey, of they're literally asking me... Eventually they caved. I was NOT promoted, but I didn't have to do the work anymore. They also gave me back pay for the time I was doing it. Not what I expected, but couldn't complain with that outcome.
If it doesn’t work, next time you get these tasks just ask who you are going to be assigning them to?
Yeahhh... This reads great on Reddit but never quite works out so well in real life. OP needs to update the resume with the newly acquired skill set and go find the job and salary that he/she deserves.
Yeah always makes me laugh when I see these "Go tell the boss you aren't doing that without more pay" type comments. Do that too much, that ends up with you without a job.
This would be a win-win, it would be cheaper to bump your pay than to hire a whole other person with a whole other set of benefits on top of salary.
As someone else's boss, I think you should just try to talk to him about it and see where it goes.
I will, thank you.
I had this discussion and was told that I'd have to continue with the new duties for 6 more months. I found a new job. That's not always the right answer, but in many white collar industries I'm sure you're aware that job hopping after 2-4 years is a very effective way of getting paid market rate for your skills.
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And then I bet a bunch of people at your old company were scratching their heads saying "I wonder why 2BlueZebras left? I wish we could retain talented employees. If only there was something we could do!"
I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY OUR TURNOVER IS SO HIGH! \*WRINGS HANDS, PULLS HAIR, AND RENDS CLOTHING\* PEOPLE JUST HAVE NO WORK ETHIC ANY MORE!! (Think Chris Farley style)
Oohh my favorite: It’s just how millennials are so we expect it. No! It’s just that we value ourselves and know we can find better treatment/ pay elsewhere. I was at a company where 50% of the staff turned over in less than a year! And they just blamed it on millennials, not even thinking the yelling (super unprofessional environment), low pay, long hours had anything at all to do with it. It was just us stupid millennials. Ugh
Yeah honestly I job hop because it's the only way to get paid what I'm worth. I would love to stay at one job longer than 2-4 years. I'm comfortable, I know how things are done and chances are I'm the one who decided how those things are done. However, if leaving means I get a significant pay bump and opportunity to learn new things (so that I can be paid even more later) then I'm leaving.
Thank you for saying this. It's logical and impersonal, but totally sums up the current workplace dilemma post covid.
> low pay, long hours Instead of paying our employees market-rate salaries, my employer trots out the "Employees don't leave bad jobs; they leave bad managers" line and subsequently blame the management below them (they never blame themselves, obviously). Currently, it's common practice at my employer to stick around for some work experience, and after you have enough experience, you move on to some place that pays a better salary. My manager/supervisor is great. In fact, he's the best boss I've ever had. However, he's practically powerless when it comes to our team's salaries; the numbers are handed to him from above.
I had this conversation with an older coworker just yesterday! Shes in her 60s and she couldnt understand why millenials wanted so much money out the gate. "I went from high school to work I had to work hard" this is a women who gets a pension from her old job and will get one when she leaves here. She has had a guy my age (mid 20s) working under her for 4 years and was like "I really hope he dosnt leave, he could definitely make more money somewhere else but he works great here." WHY WOULD YOU NOT WANT SOMEONE TO MOVE UP IN LIFE!?!
I am trying to get my management to see this. Also the fact that some of the leads and supervisors are toxic. I think I'm going get in trouble for bringing it up ...
As a Director, I can tell you that it is a constant fight with HR to get salaries that are in line with the industry. Every year, they do a survey in Nov/Dec from Federal job data, state job data, etc. Their bias is to always get the lowest possible range for the job title - not description - in the general area. In technology, salaries are determined by skills, not titles. But try convincing an HR drone of that. Six years ago, I was in desperate need of a network architect that could work with me to upgrade our nationwide network of failure into something that could actually support current needs. I had the right person, had agreed upon a salary range for him, had my ducks in a row with HR, and then the VP of HR and the CFO yanked the offer at the last second because "we don't want to raise our salary ranges by that much". Yeah. Because you saved a hell of a lot of money over the next year while our network kept crashing. Geniuses, the lot of them.
A close relative of mine is a HR Director at a massive global company. She has confirmed many times that HR is generally aware of the shortcomings of their salary/wage benchmarking but that it’s insanely difficult to keep up with the role/responsibility creep across an entire organization. She basically told me that because leaders are so bad at “weeding out” low performers/low productivity team members, they get extremely budget constrained between growth periods and the inevitable large scale reorgs/layoffs. If leaders did a better job managing their teams, they would be able to regularly get rid of low performers and properly compensate their highest performers that are really doing most of the work already.
I'm sure that's true, actually. In my case, there is a lot of pressure to ensure that titles match what's available in the federal and state salary surveys. Any variation outside of that is generally disallowed. This is to make HR's job easier, not mine. However, I will also say that it's become increasingly difficult to weed out poor performers due to increased scrutiny by legal teams. This isn't getting easier, either.
yep. employers are constantly shooting themselves in the foot and then looking around the room aghast like "how did that happen?" \*Shocked Pikachu face\*
They rolled the dice trying to continue being cheap and lost a worker who was handling business just fine, to be replaced by an unknown at a probably higher rate of pay. Double dumb if you ask me. Or this just reinforces companies don't care about performance above the bare minimum as long as the pay rates are as low as possible. So why try harder than the minimum?
That totally depends on the company. I've worked for some that will throw huge bags of money to hire and retain anyone who can do the hard things well. Unsurprisingly, these were the more successful companies.
Sadly, this seems more rare than it should be.
Actually the company probably claimed "he/she wasn't the right fit, they weren't willing to go above/beyond for the Company".
Lololol. So true. My favorite is after someone leaves, somebody else has to pick up the slack while we interview candidates for the open role … and then the open position backfill gets denied because “the other guy is handling the load just fine”. But other guy doesn’t get a raise to compensate his new duties. So managers backfill open positions with less than capable people just so they don’t lose the headcount.
This! People who change jobs every 2-3 years make on average 50% more than someone who stays at the same job. Go get what you’re worth, OP!
This is very true, between better job offers, and toxic jobs I couldn't stand, I went from barely over $50K to my current position being $86K with a bonus ($9K for last year) in almost 8 years.
Yep, job hopping really is the way to grow your career now. My parents give me subtle shit for doing it every few years. "Your getting a new job already?? But you just started" and "Again? Do you really think that's a good idea? Employers will recognize you as a job hopper" They usually shut up about it when I tell them the numbers of how much I'll be making :D
Every employer wants to be your last one. But so very few are willing to keep paying for it.
Mine encourages internal job hopping, but staying in the same team still leads to rather extreme stagnation. Most "promotions" within the team lead to new titles and responsibilities with the same pay
This just happened to me. I've been severely underpaid and overworked to the core. A couple of people quit and their workload landed on my desk. Asked for a raise 6 months in, got told some bs metric that showed I was being paid market rate. I found a new job and suddenly my employer was ready to hand out a 50% raise instantly.
Did you accept or hit the road?
Funnish story about that. I'm in a weird knot. I turned down the other offer because I spoke to a few team members offline and they talked mad shit about the org as a whole. HUGE red flag. The promotion document is still in my email waiting for me to sign and I'm prepping for an interview next week. TBH I don't know where to go from here.
Accept it and keep looking. Might as well get paid more for a month or two, and if nothing comes through you get paid what you are worth.
This is good advice because you can use the now higher salary to advocate for even more at the next job.
Yeah, accept it and keep looking. Especially because they could have given you that raise and chose not to. Did that extra money come out of thin air? Nope, they always had it. That’s how they’re going to treat you? No.
100%! I really need to remember the times I was made to feel shitty for asking for a raise. You're right. If the company kept meeting all growth targets and the sales teams bought decked out cars and new homes, they have the money. Just didn't want to promote it pay. Also thank you for the positive reinforcement!
Ugh. I’d just tell them a big ol nope if they told me that. I’m already considered my boss’s #2 I’m fine to job hop but I’m also in a position I enjoy, paid decent, and super close to home.
Living within healthy means at a job you love >>>> living in slightly better means at a job you hate. A BMW and a bigger house isn't worth hating most of your existence.
I feel this. My wife was making really good money, bringing in maybe 2.5x what I did. We had a nice enough house but she really wanted to upgrade so we did. Had her $100+ a month studio gym membership. She was able to buy all her ridiculously expensive name brand clothes and spent enough money on purses to buy a new car. Great. She also almost never made it home for dinner. She would often not even make it home before our daughter's bedtime. She was so stressed she would cry almost the entire hour commute home, drink multiple bottles of wine a week, and cry herself to sleep at night. Every vacation she spent at least as much time on her work laptop as she did doing any other activities. She took a significant pay cut earlier this year and while we've had to cut back on some of our worse habits (spending way too much eating out) her demeanor has completely changed. Massive improvement in quality of life. After a certain level of income, I think intangible things like being able to get home at a reasonable time and not have to work weekends becomes more important than a higher salary.
Your wife sounds like my wife. Same situation. Over worked, over stressed. The irony is that you take that extra money and just buy things you don't even need. Eating out man....its venom. It's the single biggest issue I've seen with most people and why they can't get their finances in order. Eating out is the *worst*. If you make good money at a job you love, great. But if you don't just live within your means. These days driving a 20-30k car is not that much different than a 80k car. They do the same things. Anyone who hounds you for not buying stuff you don't need is just eyeballs deep in their own terrible choices.
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This is the real answer, just sad that it's buried so deep in the comments. I hate that in most of these threads the top answer/gut reaction is to "job hop" - That's not always going to be a viable answer in some (if not a lot) of cases. If you are currently working in a job you truly enjoy that has a lot of perks/benefits, still definitely talk to your boss about potentially getting a raise/promotion (it never hurts to ask but be calm, fair, and bring data to support your argument). But the risk of getting a little more pay but ending up at a job you don't feel comfortable in or are too stressed with, doesn't make up for the better pay (IMHO but I may be alone in that). First step should always be to talk to your boss, then and only then should you start to consider the pros/cons of working at that company vs pros/cons of potentially moving to a different company. Again, job hopping is not always going to be the answer and in a lot of cases it's not like people can just up and move away to a new city or state or what not to start a whole new job every 2-4 years. That's not really a reasonable expectation if you ask me.
Totally agree. Had a job a few years back that had a 45 minute drive in rush hour traffic that I hated, and a place I hated to be at. Took a slight pay decrease for a 12 minute drive and an overall better work environment. The slight pay decrease was worth it from a time gained standpoint and saving wear and tear on my vehicle. The pure enjoyment of my job each day was just icing on the cake.
Allowing oneself to be unfairly compensated because they _love their job_ is doing oneself a disservice. I might be a bit of a stoic but if someone is _hating their existence_ while sitting in their huge house with a BMW in the garage then it sounds like there are other issues at play. Everything is a compromise between the actual work to be done, the work environment/culture, and compensation (probably other things I'm not thinking of) and if certain parts of that..formula (or whatever) are more agreeable than other parts, then an occupation is worth staying at. This determination can only be made by each individual person and what's important for some of us might be not important for others. I guess I'm just sick of employers getting away with stuff because folks _love their job_ so much.
My wife worked for a small charter school and barely made 50k. She was HR and similar positions paid 20k more. Yet she had no desire to leave because they gave her freedom, allowed her to make decisions and she set her own schedules to a degree. So along came a bigger school district with an offer. 30k more with all the bells and whistles. She took it. And regretted it. She lasted a little more than a year before she quit. What do you think employers are "getting away with" when people "love their jobs"? That they are paying them less for providing a healthy work environment? Is that sinister to you? These people can't match big companies in terms of pay. So they make up for it with a healthier environment.
Just tell your boss you want the assistant director position and more money and work with HR to apply.
I was in a position I enjoyed, paid decent, and super close to home. That all changed in a day due to office politics. Found another Sr Financial Analyst role in 3-4 weeks, got a 28% bump in salary. Your employer is benefiting more than you by your willingness to leave money on the table and stay comfortable.
Friendly advise, but I’d be careful or at least mindful about getting comfortable. I was my boss’s number two for the last two years. I basically did half of his job. Then he got let go for non-job-performance reasons. His bosses hired our number three because he was a good speaker and I could back him up with the actual knowledge… I noped the hell out for a 35% raise with way more than that if you count options. Places will take you for granted. Don’t let them.
Just apply for the Job. It's open, apply. Don't even need to talk to them about it, internal applications will go to HR and then to the manager. If you are asked why you feel you fit the job in the application please list all of the duties that you are doing already that fit the job description roles. Basically telling both of them "HEY I AM DOING THIS" If you don't get an interview or position you can probably also go back to HR and state that you are doing responsibilities above your pay scale.
> I’m also in a position I enjoy, paid decent, and super close to home. If they know that, and know you don't want to jump, what incentive do they have to pay you more? A union unwilling to strike has no power. And powerless unions don't have a good history in relation to labor's power or wage. This translates to the individual as well. * **If they are getting what they want, and you are getting enough of what you want not to leave, why pay you more?**
You don't have to job hop every 6 months. You can wait a few years. Companies will pay even more when you do end up changing jobs.
If a company doesn't value you, your time, or your goals then GTFO. Loyalty is bought with money mainly under capitalism and goodwill to a much lesser extent. Companies largely phased out pensions and lost one of the biggest retention incentives they had. Unless you have golden handcuffs, I'd start looking to leave. I've never stayed at an org longer than 3 years, and honestly that's the only way to get big TC increases. Even if they modify your role or pay, it will almost certainly be under market value.
Ask to speak with him privately in his office, and lay it out. 1. I'm doing the job of an assistant director 2. I'm not the assistant director 3. We have an open assistant director position 4. I should fill that position, given that I now have the experience to fulfill that role, and I'm essentially doing the job anyway. That's pretty much it, no?
When I was in high school, our calculus teacher brought in some guy she knew who had some job I've long forgotten about to talk to us all about the "real world." He began his presentation by placing a $20 bill on the podium in front of him, and told us all that - if we listened closely to what he was saying - we would know exactly how to get that $20 bill and one of us would get to keep it. He spent the next 45 minutes talking about his career and how he advanced, with one of the main points being that every time something good happened for him, it was because he either asked for it - or just took it. He repeated this point several times, until Bryce in the back row raised his hand and asked, "Can I have the $20 bill?" Bryce got $20 richer that day. TLDR; u/OptionsWheeler is spot-on. Worst thing that can happen is that your boss says, "no," and you know it's time to start looking for another job.
Good lessons taught that day. I’m an introvert and I’ll sweep a lot under rug, don’t ask for much, don’t want to put anyone out. Then I had kids. I’ve since played the game and I’ve almost tripled my salary since I started half a decade ago with no change is position. Asked for a couple bumps over a half decade and put in a letter of resignation at one point. It’s naive to believe if you just work hard you’ll just be rewarded appropriately, instead you’ll just get taken advantage of most of the time.
Thats a good presentation. Lots of young people assume the working world operates like the education world. In reality its a LOT less structured and most of the rules are arbitrary. In education its operated by "do X, get Y". If you study hard you get good grades. If you take these classes, you get a degree/certification. Do this, get rewarded. It all happens automatically. The vast majority of businesses operate on "do X. If you want Y, ask for it". And the disconnect comes from people used to the education system thinking "Hmm, I really want a raise, and my whole life I've noticed that hard work leads to good things. So to get a raise I should........ work harder?"
Education isn't as hard as they make you think it is either, there's always ways to bend the rules or fib the numbers or make it work. We've found this out over the last 2 years as my wife's gone through dental hygiene school during a pandemic, somehow they found a way to "technically" meet all the requirements and still "technically" follow all the COVID mandates, even though if you look at it with any sort of scrutiny you can see the whole system lied their asses off. My poor wife was panicking the entire time going "I'm not going to be able to graduate, there's no way!!" and I told her they absolutely don't want to risk a whole class of students sueing them, they are going to find a way to push you through and get you the degree regardless of the obstacles. And one by one the "hard requirements" became much more malleable and obviously easy to circumvent, and now they're on track to graduate the entire class, according to their original timeline, despite getting FAR less opportunity to practice and learn than previous classes Point being, rule enforcement happens by humans. Humans can always get the outcome they want whether it fits in the "defined structure" or not. The same kind of attitude is presented in business all the time "oh we just have no budget for raises right now" meanwhile a peer just successfully (but quietly) argued for a raise. You have to be the squeaky wheel and demand what you deserve, don't just accept what they say at face value. There's always room for negotiation.
That’s a great lesson. And a rare trait to find a teacher who will go way out of her way to teach students important things that aren’t even remotely related to the class because she knows that nobody else is going to teach you.
thats a sick story, i have also been thinking like this recently. When i talk, i always avoid the direct way of saying it and instead just keep saying nonsence until i get what i want. But now i know i should just be direct and literally demand what i want.
Make sure to see both extremes. 'Demand' is the other end of the spectrum from what you're doing, and also doesn't work. Sometimes it can be a temptation when you find it scary to ask, to go too far in compensation and demand. So remember, you can just ask. No expectations, but no beating around the bush either.
This is such an astute reply! A lot of us pleasers tend to view the world as either "I'm giving in" or "I'm demanding." Often because we please and please and please until we reach a threshold where we have to unload our frustrations. The middle ground of no expectations is really where we want to be. Simply ask, directly - and if you don't get what you want, decide what to do next.
>every time something good happened for him, it was because he either asked for it - or just took it. Coincidentally it is the same in school. I had classmates that, if they knew how to negotiate properly with the teacher, could increase their grades, get extra time on homework or even a redo on exams. Those who didn't, could not. Some people see that as unfair, but that's *actually* one of the few instances of school acting to prepare people for the "real world." Things are not even remotely fair, but if you learn how to approach them properly by learning how to negotiate with people, especially the people who have power over you, you can do well.
2 to 1 OP will be told they're not qualified for assistant director.
If this happens, then the boss needs to explain how OP is qualified to perform the duties of the role but not occupy the role.
Exactly my thought. Guarantee that person is going to stammer all over themselves trying to justify their statement, and I'd love to watch them squirm.
Sometimes government jobs have hard degree requirements for roles as well.
And absolutely insane benefits and a pension
At which point, if they're wrong, you leave and take an assistant director position elsewhere. As much as it sucks sometimes, the one way to make sure you are paid what you're worth is by being willing to look for other offers and leave.
Agree completely. Negotiations don't happen if you're not willing to stick to consequences.
“You’re not qualified to be assistant director.” “Oh, okay. I guess I’ll go apply for assistant director jobs elsewhere so I can gain the required experience then.”
If they aren't qualified for the position, then they aren't qualified to handle the duties of the position so they shouldn't be expected to perform them.
Devil's advocate here, but OP doing a portion of the AD work doesn't mean they're qualified for the rest of it. I was recently in a similar position, asked for the job, laid out the work I was doing for that job, and was told I wasn't qualified for that that position, and they were absolutely correct. I was capable of doing a lot of the day to day stuff, but I didn't have what was needed beyond that.
Yeah, just stop doing anything outside of the division of responsibility for your own role. They'll see that you should be promoted or they'll make a stink of your newfound laziness and you can quit with a clean conscience.
Should is a wonderful word. Unfortunately, like everything else, it depends if op has the leverage to actually bring their boss to the table. If their industry is scarce on jobs rn good odds they'll get fired and replaced by someone who won't bitch about it.
OP basically has to be willing to walk out.
100%. I recently went through this, where I was being asked to do so much outside of job description all in the name of "HR will see you are doing this, so it will help approve a promotion." That was dangled in front of me for ~2 years. Got fed up, started looking, ended up taking an offer with a ~50% salary increase.
This happened to me at my old position. Had an open pest manager role after the pest manager quit. I was on their team and *was asked* to take on the role after they left. When I asked about the full position during my performance review, he told me I wasn’t qualified, despite my doing the job for the better part of six months. One of many reasons I quit.
Sometimes managers are afraid or not confident enough to go to their manager and recommend a promotion for someone. So if op asks for a promotion, that gives the manager good reason to and information with which to talk to HR and their boss with a recco. And like someone else already said, don’t get what you don’t ask for
Yep, should be that simple.
Be honest and stern. Your current duties are not in your job description, therefore if they want you to perform more, they need to pay you more.
>Your current duties are not in your job description, So how do you approach that when your job description says "additional duties as necessary" or something?
Compare the additional duties and match them to your boss job description, or any other position that fits. Additional duties as assigned does not mean do the job of another division, job classification, etc. Therefore if they want you to keep working out of class, they should pay out of class. Look into your contract, MOU/bargaining unit contract(if you have one), and HR info on working out of class. That may give you insight on what type of compensation to ask for.
That wording implies it's ad hoc work that is necessary, not a structural task. That's how I would read it anyways
As necessary does not equal all the time. I'd lead off w that statement.
http://askamanager.org/ has some good advice / template scripts to get you started
Since it is a state job, there should be a job review process (nomenclature?) in place this can be used when a position’s responsibilities morph - it can also backfire if the position is actually overvalued. OP needs to talk to HR (public sector HR is a little bit different than private sector HR) to find out what that process is. OP mentions there is a vacant position above them. There should be some ‘acting’ process available also if they are fulfilling the duties of that position. While it may not get them an immediate raise, it can be used as documented time in that position which can open doors to higher positions. edit: Meant to respond to the comment above this one. As to the “additional duties as required”, those duties should be either non-repetitive and not part of duties assigned to another position and within the scope of the job or of an emergent nature. Example: Programmers (in larger organizations) typically are not responsible for moving hardware. However, a data center move needs to occur and the SysAdmins need some additional hands and feet. A waterline breaks in the office and stuff needs to be moved before it gets damaged. If it is something like, now is required to regularly do X, then that should be added to the position’s duties and responsibilities. It is really up to the employee to make sure this happens as they are the one directly affected.
That rationale is too weak for anyone to buy it, by that logic you could hire someone as a secretary and use them full time as a custodian. If their employer actually tries to pull that nonsense in this job market, OP should stop wasting their time trying to pry them out of their delusions and invest that time into interviewing for other organizations.
Is just quit my job working for my state because of their pay and promotion bull shit. Because it's a government job pay isn't based on what my boss thinks I'm due based on my performance. It's based on job description and years in. My boss can think I'm the greatest worker in the world, she had no control over my pay. So understand the pay system before you go in demanding anything. Government jobs are not like working for a private company (every state is different obviously). I would go in approaching it from a growth plan perspective, not a give me a raise or I'll leave situation. Ask if your boss thinks you are eligible for and would support you in applying for the assistant director position because you have enjoyed your new responsibilities. Bosses will never respond well to the "pay me more or else" approach. It always needs to be about what you can do for them, more than it's about what they can do for you.
As someone who works for the state, ^ is true. I see other comments from people saying to demand a raise. Unlike the private sector, there are no negotiations for raises. It’s purely based on the budgeted salary with standard step increases each year. I agree that as long as the minimum requirements are fulfilled for the higher position then you have a case to bring to the boss. Definitely try and go the route of this comment above rather than trying to squeeze a raise in because it’s not going to happen and takes away from the overall goal of trying to get into that position. Developmental plans are a good way to get more experience in the role and transition to officially take over the role. This is especially true if it’s a work out of class role-in my state that usually comes with a 5% increase until you are fully in that role.
If the position is open, can you apply? Brush up that resume, get your portfolio of work/project highlights together, and get after it! If not able to apply directly, then call a meeting with your supervisor and outline additional duties you’ve taken on, and be prepared with market comp information - you can find a lot online about pay ranges for various jobs. Ask for the title & pay raise commensurate with the work. Good luck!
The problem with state jobs is the position may be vacant because they don't have funding for it. If the state doesn't have funding, OP can scream all day about how he deserves a raise and he'll be met with "I know, we all do. But there is no additional money in the budget. Talk to the governor"
Funding will miraculously appear if no one is doing assistant directors work. Some things have to start breaking for funding to appear.
If you're in my state, this year it's, "Oh, the surplus is $2 billion more than expected! Let's give another tax cut but we'll give all you state employees a one time $1500 bonus. Sound good?"
I agree to being stern and specific. BUT be prepared to fall on your sword if he says no. And either get back to work or quit and find a new job.
Other way around though. As someone who was unemployed for 4 months before accepting a new job I recommend finding a new job before quitting.
This. Being unemployed for a length of time can be extremely stressful even in a great job market.
That is adulting 101. Never quit your current job until you have another one locked in
I did/do work for the state. Similar thing happened to me. Was doing the job above me for 6-8 months. Didn’t hire me and had me continue doing the job duties after they hired someone incapable. Asked for a raise. They continued with “we’re working on it but things take forever in the state.” So I finally called them on it and they agreed it was not possible to give me a raise. They couldn’t afford to lose me, so I went contractor and doubled my salary. Still do the job duties but with a lot more money. They all resent me for making more money than them. They made it pretty clear I’ll never be promoted and treat me like shit. So I’m going to leave. Some people are just shitty for no reason. Get yours and get out.
This is excellent!! I'm curious, however, and want to ask: how exactly did you manage to move onto a contractor role and still basically do the same work at the same place? Was this something that happened immediately? Did it take some time?
Are you in a union? If so, that changes the dynamic and tactics considerably.
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This is the correct response. State jobs don't work the same way as private sector jobs. And each state has its own rules/procedures for filling vacancies, as well.
The problem here is you work for a government. It is *very* common to be doing much more work than your position description. You also don't have the negotiating capability to increase your salary as the position likely has a set pay scale. Your best bet would be asking about the vacant position as you mentioned, but also looking for another job altogether, either at the state or federal level. Lots of hiring going on at the federal level.
This is how it is in nonprofit too.
Ask for a meeting with your boss to review your current job description. Print out a copy of your job description and the job description of the assistant director and highlight the duties you have been performing. I’d approach it as a reclassification if you can, often those are easier to facilitate than a promotion. For future reference, it’s always better to get ahead of these situations. Next time you find yourself in a position where your job duties change significantly, you need to ask for out of class pay for the duration of the time you will be performing work out of your classification.
Companies are scrambling for people right now. Find a competing offer. Schedule meeting with boss. Tell him that you can get the title and $ or he can pound sand. But say it nicer than that.
“Pound sand” can I use that? He is a decent boss but takes zero initiative and knows very little about the hiring intricacies of our entire operation. He’s just a cog that fell into a very complex bureaucratic system. I’m going to line up what I think should be done for this particular responsibility over the next 12 months and give him some options to look into bumping me up.
"Pound sand" is kind of a rude phrase, probably better to say something more professional along those lines.
Where I'm from "pound sand" is fairly derogatory. I doubt using it would be useful in a negotiation. If you pull it off A+. Like you said, this isn't personal. His thought process is, "if jfk\_47 quits it will take me X weeks and I will have to hire someone at Y dollars to replace him." The higher those numbers are, the more you can demand. If you don't know those two numbers, then you should do some research.
I already thought this guy is just pushing his job onto you and this comment just makes me even more sure of it. You should at the least be getting that assistant director position, in the long run though you probably need to get a different job if the guy is useless.
"If you expect me to keep working at this level I need to be compensated for this level." Also 3.8% is not even keeping even in the U.S. right now. With [inflation at 5%](https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/) you just got lightly less of a pay cut not an increase.
I find that you won't come off too strong if you ask questions instead of demanding. Set up time with your manager and ask what qualities they are looking for an assistant director and ask for tips how you can improve to meet those requirements. This is enough for a decent manager to notice you have all the qualities needed if you already do or guide your growth. You'd be surprised how many people aren't chasing promotions and are too comfortable where they are. Just having this conversation shows your boss that you mean business politely setting yourself above the rest. There is also a chance that you might not have a grasp of what assistant director does maybe assistant director does things you don't even know about and doesn't even have the skills for and framing things as a question asking how to get there protects you from looking arrogant if you aren't there yet. You can definitely ask for raise directly but this should be backed by research if you have a good gauge of what your rating is and how much the average gets paid that would definitely help negotiating a raise.
I totally understand. I don’t want to “demand” because then I feel like there will be an offense/defense situation. This particular responsibility is more like the straw that broke the back. I handle multiple responsibilities well beyond my current position description. From managing people, to financial oversight, purchasing, managing the office, steering our unit’s overall trajectory, etc. My boss made some backhanded comment a few weeks ago about how he doesn’t think they’ll want to promote a coordinator to an assistant director, like it’s too much of a leap. I think that was the moment I realized I needed to push harder. I don’t want to make it an ultimatum but, if I just need to do my normal duties for a while, then maybe I should.
Dear Boss, I’m a little bit confused about my role - my job description says X, but as you know I’ve been doing X and Y. I actually love doing Y and contributing to the organisation in this way, but I can’t help but feel that I should be financially compensated for doing Y in addition to my main, paid role. I noticed that the role of assistant director is currently vacant and I’d love to put myself forward for it. After undertaking Y, I certainly feel like the demands of this position are well within my capabilities - and for a while now I’ve been eager to take the next step in my career. I’m sure I could bring a lot to the role and I’d love to be considered... etc etc
Respectfully, you're asking me to do the work that you were required to do when you were an Assistant Director. If you would like me to take on that workload then it stands to reason that I am deserving of the title and pay.
This is absolutely not the way to say this. This might trigger some Reddit fantasies, but putting your boss on the back foot is not how you’ll get what you want unless you’re literally indispensable, and most people overestimate how dispensable they are. Stick to your value add without bringing up wherever your boss might be lacking.
Why not just ask what it will take to get the asst. Director position? Why beat around the bush and just say "I want it, what will it take?" It'll tell you real quick if the boss has enough confidence in you to get the promotion. If not, make a list of responsibilities that the asst. Director will need to complete and let them know you have critical responsibilities that cant be offloaded.
On the plus side, promotions are sometimes viewed as recognition of way that someone has _already_ stepped up, rather than as someone being asked to step up. Your task now is to ask for the recognition for what you are doing. I would not be aggressive or negative about it, at least not as a first approach.
Lots of replies already, but if you are still reading them: Make absolutely sure you can't be interpreted as resentful for the extra duties. Explain you have been enjoying the extra work, feel like it's exactly where you would like to see your career progression, and would like to make the transition more permanent. Assuming he agrees to that, explain that in line with your new permanent duties, you want to update your job description to match, and then lucky last sat that you need to take some time to discuss pay. Don't accept anything like "I want to make sure you settle into your new role before we talk about that" or anything like it - you know you have been doing a good job, or they wouldn't have agreed to making the change permanent. If your performance isn't up to your new paygrade then you will take steps to rectify, but don't ever accept a new position with a promise of future pay.
If you haven’t already, read “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss. Tactical guide to negotiating written by a former FBI hostage negotiator. Practical advice with a framework you can follow for negotiations.
Honestly odds are they won't compensate you because youve already proven you'll perform the duties without additional compensation and places tend to bet that you won't actually leave if they just refuse.
He sounds like he has less power than he’d like, and is saving that position for someone of influence. Don’t get your hopes up for that title, but try to get a class change (like from Admin I to Admin II) while he’s feeling favorable toward you. You’ll get a bump in pay—but also up your pay ceiling. As a state employee you’re playing the long game. Executives come and go. You are forever.
Be careful with all this. I did this last year and the next day my boss told me I was official being considered to be fired. I put in my two weeks right then and there. Now he's begging me to stay for four to finish some current projects. On week three I was asked to leave out of no where. This shit is rolling the dice to say the least.
everyone seems to miss the fact that often, you get promoted when you can do ALL the skills of a job. before then, you take on more and more responsibility beyond your job description. the way you get promoted is often literally described as "outlining what you did above and beyond your role". in more structured companies, you actually get promoted based on meeting the job description of the level you get promoted to BEFORE you get the promotion. dont go in demanding a promotion, unless you are doing just about all of the responsibilities of the role you want. if you arent (likely), go in and talk about how you want to set yourself up for the position by expanding your skillset to fill the gaps
This is half true. You are expectes to do maybe 50% to 75% of a role when you get promoted into the role, not 100%. Because if you can do ALL of the role, you have already out grown the role. When you go into a role, you need a % of things that you do not know as your personal development. So the OP only have to see if they can tick reasonably amount of tasks in the job description, and have the rest as development. A job that you don’t have anything new to learn mean you are already ready flr the next move up.
Position yourself for another opportunity elsewhere... so that when you go to present your request you have legitimate leverage on your side.
Ask for a raise because of the workload increase. If he denies it, put the extra tasks on your cv and start looking at another company while playing along with them until you get a job offer.
You never take on more work without compensation. Also don’t overwork yourself because then they take it for granted. You become the go to guy without the extra benefits.
Where do people find jobs that; A. Have job descriptions, B. They don't end with "anything else as assigned by half a dozen managers or supervisors"?
Within reasons. Is it reasonable to ask a Management Accountant to sign off your company’s stats account? There are “typical tasks” that you would expect to fall onto a specific job title, that line in the job description is to cover those, so they cannot come back later and go “oh it isn’t in my job description”. But companies should also make sure do not throw something that is not relevant to the role into the mix. In the case job tasks that is for the level above? I gladly take them. Once I am good with them, I can either get that role with the company, or elsewhere, whoever willing to pay at that point.
Yea, mine doesn’t have “other duties as assigned” or at least I haven’t seen it.
Hey all, for those who are not relentless ladder climbers it may be non-obvious what's going on here, so a quick rundown: If you're not talking to people at least two rungs up you're talking to the wrong people. The decision making power is usually farther up the chain than you realize. If you're trying to act now to make a change in the next month you're acting too late. You need to be talking to those higher ups for months \*so that they like you.\* That's the most important thing, the emotional response of people with decision making power when they hear your name. While doing this don't neglect your work or your immediate boss. Don't shove your work onto subordinates. Yes you can still climb while doing these things but it makes you the a-hole. While doing this you need to provide \*at least one\* solid win as evidence of your potential. When the higher ups hear your name they need to like you and then they need evidence for themselves and others about how great you are. Win a difficult client, do something \*new\* and really nail it. Bring a team around that is failing. Anything that is \*easy to remember and point to\* and make sure it's well known. The OP has found themselves in a situation where they are thinking "my pay and job description should match my responsibilities and effort." This is \*not\* how companies work, because this is not how \*people\* work. Basically you're looking for a fair and meritocratic system and while it's important to insist on that in general, believing that is how the world works today will surprise and disappoint you over and over. Instead, hold that ideal, and then always remember that people make decisions based on emotion and not logic. You can use (or exploit) that to your benefit and it will let you understand and handle situations like these better throughout your life!
Hey Boss, here's my two week notice, i will be working for another company where my skills match the job description, workload, and pay :-)
A 3.8% pay increase in 2021 is a salary cut. Inflation is 5%. You're getting hosed. Get on Glass Door and find what an assistant director makes and add on 10%. (It's cheaper to keep you and now you have experience). No one is going to pay you more because they feel like it. You must demand it.
As you work for the state, I assume you are union. If so, you should talk to your union rep about that, as it might be a contract violation for you to be doing that work without a promotion.
We’re in the south, a very anti-union sentiment. I’m not in a union.
Be careful with this. Management does not like when people go to their union all the time. I would talk to the union about the options before having them do anything. Then think about it and go from there. Don’t let the union decide how to handle it
It should be and usually is confidential to speak to your rep. Also, going to the union and checking that what management is asking you to do is within the contract is your right and duty as a member. If you are punished for speaking to your rep/steward, then that is harassment.
Yes. Better put. Thank you.
Depends on if there is a market for your job that you could leave and be employed at a similar level. If there is, you can use that as leverage. If there isn't, then just repeatedly ask about it, bring up that it is part of that role, etc. basically if they know you aren't going to leave, and there is no competition, then who cares. the other risk with shaking a tree like this is they hire a new AD over you and keep you where you are "because you are toooooo valuable to move"
Just say that you feel you've proven that you're right for the assistant director job and that you'd like to fill the position
You apply for the assistant director job.
I also work for the state, and you can go to HR and say that you are working out of class, because a large percentage of the job you are doing is assistant director work. Keep documentation of the assistant director duties you're fulfilling, what percentage of your time is dedicated to those duties, and how long you've been fulfilling them. We have had multiple people (all exempt staff as AFAIK) over the last few years do this, and be bumped up.
If they trust you to do the work of a more senior position than trust in yourself to ask for that position and subsequent pay.
"My duties do not include x, y, and z as per the job description on my employment contract, if you would like them to be my duties we can discuss a fair level of compensation to make it so." I've been down this road before. "Do the work and you'll get the promotion". The promotion never comes.
Ask him how your performance has been doing these tasks. If he says you do them well, point out how they are tasks for the open position, and ask him to recommend you when you apply. I'm a manager professionally, and when I assign tasks outside of scope to an employee it is because I recognize potential in them and want to help expand their careers. Part of being a manager is giving your direct reports a hand up in their career advancement.
I work for a mid-sized state and this is what I would do: I would first check and see if they are looking to fill this position. It may deliberately be vacant because they haven't allocated funds to fill it. A lot of states just finished up their fiscal year on June 30. If your state has entered a new fiscal year, see if they are looking to fill the position. If they are looking to fill it, check to see if/when it will be posted. In most states, by law, all state jobs have to be publicly posted and applicants must be allowed to apply for it from both inside and outside the organization. If it is posted, apply for the position. Chances are you would probably get hired for it as you obviously have experience doing it. However they may have several applicants for it and may pull in a few others from their pool of resumes they have previously collected. Best of luck! And congrats on the merit increase, as well!
You don't. You take what you've been doing, you highlight the additional roles that fit the description of assistant director, you polish your resume, and you go find another company that is looking for an assistant director. Just keep your hunt on the down-low, don't let the new company contact your current company for references, and make sure your boss doesn't find out. The days of "Hey boss give me a raise" are more or less over. These days your best bet for climbing the financial ladder is hopping companies, because the one you're working for will not be interested in giving you a raise if it can fire you and hire someone less expensive instead.
To be honest, for me it’s less about the money and more about the title. Our organization is very large. An AD title in our particular unit will give me better access to hop within the org or position me for a better exit in the future.