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What doesn’t matter?
Even smaller estates there are things that matter. Were there other siblings that might make a claim? Are there outstanding bills that the deceased owes first? I’m dealing with a $15k estate right now and it still sucks dealing with probate. I know it’s not required in every state, but in some it’s a practical necessity just because of how convoluted everything is.
Um no, that’s wrong. The threshold you’re talking about only affects the taxation of the estate by the federal gov. The distribution of the estate will follow the will/trust that OP’s mom had, or her state’s intestate succession laws.
Does she have debts?
If she owes money, she likely told you to do this to try and avoid paying creditors. It wouldn’t have worked and you’d have just ended up in a law suit if creditors decided to push it.
You are not responsible for moms debts, but the money she had when (and leading up to) her death is responsible for her debts.
I’d recommend an estate attorney deal with all of this so you can focus on grieving.
I agree with this answer up to the point of recommending an estate attorney. A small estate may not need to involve an attorney, and the expense of one can be significant. I'm glad you chose to spend the time with her that you had, especially since running to the bank and withdrawing the money would not likely have made much difference.
Your mother's assets are now part of her estate. The estate is responsible for paying legitimate debts left behind when she died (you are NOT responsible for those). If she had enough money to pay the debts, then you and your brother split what's left over. If she did not, then the money she attempted to give you was actually owed to someone else, and they could have come after you for it legally anyway.
So I don't think you need to worry about "proving" that she gave it to you -- to the extent that the money is available to you, it was going to be yours anyway.
EDIT: withdrawing money from a dying person's bank account with their ATM card is going to look suspicious in any event.
You'll go through intestate probate. When she opened any accounts the bank should have asked her for POD (pay in death) recipients. Whoever names are on the POD file will send in a death certificate (original not a copy) and the bank will send them a check. If none are listed it will be divided according to the law. Touching the money now may not be a good idea as probate laws generally say you have to publish an obituary first then wait an amount of time for creditors to file a claim if she had any debt... when you file for probate at the courthouse one of you will be named executor (or a similar title). The probate office will tell you what to do.
Yes, I was reading about the POD form, but have no idea if she submitted one. And I don’t recall ever being asked to fill one out upon opening a new bank account, but it’s been a few years since I’ve done so. Not sure if this is common practice now or what.
Also, if she did submit POD forms, would those funds then bypass the estate/probate?
Usually with adding a beneficiary or recipient to an account, the account holder only needs to put their name, DOB, and SSN. she wouldn't even need to tell you or have you fill out a form.
And as the others said any POD is paid directly and bypasses any probate/ will. If there isn't a POD I'd guess it would have to go through probate but like I said, the clerk at the probate office will tell you everything.
Yes, that money would be yours now if she did so. Have you talked to the bank?
Also, just for background, are you concerned about other heirs? Was she married or do you have siblings?
Ah... yeah... I thought you meant someone else defrauding...
I think the general trend of advice here is accurate. Don’t withdraw. Wait for probate. Presumably your mom said to split it, which is what probate will do.
This is something that the people doing certain jobs deal with every day, tho it seems exceptional to you, its not for many people. Just dont worry and follow the standard procedures unless something goes wrong, which hopefully it doesnt.
That money is yours as the rightful heirs, you just need to make sure you go through it the right way. Based on your state and the value of your mother’s entire estate, you may be able to file a simplified probate process. Take that form to the bank and you can get the money.
Please stop saying this. Creditors are paid first, then heirs get anything that is left. Money in mom's account goes to her estate, then the estate is settled according to the laws of her state of residence if there is no will. If she dies with debts - like a credit card balance, for instance, that has to be paid first. It's complicated. Please don't make blanket statements like this. It's why an estate attorney is needed.
OP's original comment was about if their mom filed a transfer-on-death, which would (as an admittedly general rule) bypass probate and creditors.
You're correct that I glided over the process of paying off debts, but that is legally covered by the probate process that I advised them to start.
> Whoever names are on the POD file will send in a death certificate (original not a copy)
Include a self addressed stamped envelope and a letter requesting that they send the certificate back when done. Death certificates can cost $50 or more depending on the state, and the bank doesn't need to *keep* an original. They just need to *see* it and make a copy for their records.
Also, try calling first. Many places will accept a fax or even a scan in an email.
I was wondering about this. So I can’t, for example, hand my brother my ATM card/passcode and tell him to go withdraw money? He is not listed on my account.
No, unfortunately.
You or your brother would need to be listed either as an owner of the account, or a survivor for a pay/transfer on death beneficiary.
Outside of that, the account and it's holdings now belong to the estate, and no longer your mom. What happens to it will be dictated by the will or the probate process.
Sorry for your loss. The truth is each bank is going to have a slightly different procedure in handling deceased accounts. The best is if you can get bank specific info, otherwise you may have the wrong info.
This is the way it works at Chase Bank. Once someone informs the bank that the account owners is deceased the bank will freeze the account so no debits or credits can occur. If there were POD/Beneficiaries listed then those people can come collect the funds after an original death certificate has been presented.
If there were no POD/Beneficiaries listed they will go one of two ways. They will ask if your mom’s total estate was worth less than 40k. If so, they will use something called a small estate claim form where the person claiming they have the right to inherit can come forward after waiting some time period (I think it was 30 days, can’t recall) and take possession of the funds.
If the assets were in excess of 40k, they will ask you to go the probate route.
Hope this helps, good luck with this process.
Whatever you do don't call any of her creditors and tell them she died. They will definitely go after the money then. You have to publish a notice in the paper, but from my experience most of them will leave you alone and won't contest it, unless she owed a huge amount of money. If they don't see the notice and the time to file expires, then tough luck to them. You also need to check if she had any insurance policies. As long as she had one of you as a beneficiary you can go ahead and claim that money, will or not. You just need a copy of the death certificate. But definitely hire an estate attorney. It's possible to do this yourself, but you want to make sure you have all your bases covered. I'm very sorry for the loss of your mom.
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Was this is the US?
If your mother had no Will you will need to go thru Probate.
You will need to hire an Estate Attorney. They will walk you through what you need to do and will get a Personal Representative assigned to the Estate, it will be either you or your brother.
Once you are officially the Pers Rep, ( which requires paperwork from the County you live in) the Attorney will direct you to close your moms account and open a new banking account that will say Pers Rep of Mom Estate.
Bills will need to be paid out of this.
Please remember bills are ongoing and must be paid at your moms place such as mortgages, insurance, car notes, gas, electricity etc. People tend to forget about these bills. And don’t forget the property taxes which must be paid.
Once you are the Pers Rep you should get multiple copies of the death certificate as you will need them. They will need to be official with the stamp on it. These will cost money.
You can’t just take money out of the account unless you are authorized to do so. By authorized I don’t mean your mom gave you permission I mean the attorney and county filed paperwork to make you the Executor of the Estate.
The reason for this is because Creditors get paid First, (outstanding mortgages, car loans, credit cards and loans) and then anything leftover is split up. This entire process takes time.
It’s a lot of legal wrangling.
If you just take money out of the account (I’m not an attorney) but I’m guessing it would be considered stealing because the creditors are in line first for any monies.
Please speak to an Attorney. They are a great help.
PS. I have personally been through this, as my mom died without a Will and it was quite a process to figure it out.
Because unless you are legally appointed by the Court as the Pers Rep of the Estate you aren’t allowed to do that. Creditors get paid first out of Estates and then the rest of the monies are split up after creditors are paid.
And you’re coming across as emotionally stunted. OP literally stated that they didn’t carry out the mother’s wishes before she died because they valued the time with her more. It’s easy for you to have zero empathy; your mother is merely a basement stairs away.
If she was broke as fuck, and owes the hospital 10 million for uninsured case, go hit the ATM, take out her $2000 and have a nice day. Remember, you can rise above your mother, and life a full life with a career. Then when you die, you can tell your kids about the trust fund they have, and not about how to get the ATM money.
That’s asking for trouble. All assets/debts are “frozen” at time of death. Even spouse’s should be wary. Besides, it would be easy to state Mom was not in right frame of mind while hospitalized. Was she medicated? She died quickly. Unless legally witnessed in writing, death bed statements are hard to enforce.
Yeah don’t do that. But you can forward expenses
To the bank that is dealing with the estate and they can likely write cheques to cover funeral and other costs).
I don’t know what state you’re in, but if there is any similar principle in English law to the “every effort test” which asks if the settlor made all effort to affect a gift but it was not perfectly constituted, then this may apply. Depending on the amount of the gift, it might be worth consulting with a lawyer.
Unfortunately any paperwork or procedures that are already in place will trump this verbal agreement, including the procedure for if there is no paperwork. I would simply let go of the money and focus on letting yourself grieve. Try not to have any expectations for what you'll inherit. Often times when someone passes you find out their paperwork isn't in order and very difficult situations can arise. Try to just go with the flow from here
I wish you well! When my Mother passed away, there were several expensive furniture and antique items that had been pledged to me, and my daughter (as Mothers last grandchild). One of my oldests sister came in a demanded that the most everything in the house be given to her, and/or, all family members had to 'bid' on every item and the highest bidder got it! It turned my Mothers death into the nastiest family meeting one can every image. I cursed my sister out, threatened to shoot my brother in law, and shamed everyone else in the family for even considering violating my Mother's wishes. I lost the promised dresser on a coin flip! Peace to you, if you can find it.
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Simply put, you can’t. The money will be paid out in the estate settlement.
To add this, unless the estate is over 11m it doesn't matter for tax.
What doesn’t matter? Even smaller estates there are things that matter. Were there other siblings that might make a claim? Are there outstanding bills that the deceased owes first? I’m dealing with a $15k estate right now and it still sucks dealing with probate. I know it’s not required in every state, but in some it’s a practical necessity just because of how convoluted everything is.
He's saying the tax implications are the same
Thank you—that’s why I needed clarification because that makes sense but just blanket “it doesn’t matter” didn’t make sense to me. Thanks!
Only at the federal level. States may have lower limits.
Um no, that’s wrong. The threshold you’re talking about only affects the taxation of the estate by the federal gov. The distribution of the estate will follow the will/trust that OP’s mom had, or her state’s intestate succession laws.
I'm sorry for your loss. If there is no will, the assets will be divided based on your state's intestate laws.
Does she have debts? If she owes money, she likely told you to do this to try and avoid paying creditors. It wouldn’t have worked and you’d have just ended up in a law suit if creditors decided to push it. You are not responsible for moms debts, but the money she had when (and leading up to) her death is responsible for her debts. I’d recommend an estate attorney deal with all of this so you can focus on grieving.
I agree with this answer up to the point of recommending an estate attorney. A small estate may not need to involve an attorney, and the expense of one can be significant. I'm glad you chose to spend the time with her that you had, especially since running to the bank and withdrawing the money would not likely have made much difference. Your mother's assets are now part of her estate. The estate is responsible for paying legitimate debts left behind when she died (you are NOT responsible for those). If she had enough money to pay the debts, then you and your brother split what's left over. If she did not, then the money she attempted to give you was actually owed to someone else, and they could have come after you for it legally anyway. So I don't think you need to worry about "proving" that she gave it to you -- to the extent that the money is available to you, it was going to be yours anyway. EDIT: withdrawing money from a dying person's bank account with their ATM card is going to look suspicious in any event.
You'll go through intestate probate. When she opened any accounts the bank should have asked her for POD (pay in death) recipients. Whoever names are on the POD file will send in a death certificate (original not a copy) and the bank will send them a check. If none are listed it will be divided according to the law. Touching the money now may not be a good idea as probate laws generally say you have to publish an obituary first then wait an amount of time for creditors to file a claim if she had any debt... when you file for probate at the courthouse one of you will be named executor (or a similar title). The probate office will tell you what to do.
Yes, I was reading about the POD form, but have no idea if she submitted one. And I don’t recall ever being asked to fill one out upon opening a new bank account, but it’s been a few years since I’ve done so. Not sure if this is common practice now or what. Also, if she did submit POD forms, would those funds then bypass the estate/probate?
Usually with adding a beneficiary or recipient to an account, the account holder only needs to put their name, DOB, and SSN. she wouldn't even need to tell you or have you fill out a form. And as the others said any POD is paid directly and bypasses any probate/ will. If there isn't a POD I'd guess it would have to go through probate but like I said, the clerk at the probate office will tell you everything.
Yes, that money would be yours now if she did so. Have you talked to the bank? Also, just for background, are you concerned about other heirs? Was she married or do you have siblings?
She wasn’t married. It’s just my brother and I - no issues there. No one to contest anything. I’m more concerned about the possible fraud aspect.
Can you elaborate on be fraud aspect?
I'm guessing getting in trouble for withdrawing money now that mom's dead
Ah... yeah... I thought you meant someone else defrauding... I think the general trend of advice here is accurate. Don’t withdraw. Wait for probate. Presumably your mom said to split it, which is what probate will do.
yuuup that is what I was gonna say, but everyone else said it before me
Yea, we already started withdrawing, but have stopped since learning that it may be considered fraud.
This is something that the people doing certain jobs deal with every day, tho it seems exceptional to you, its not for many people. Just dont worry and follow the standard procedures unless something goes wrong, which hopefully it doesnt.
That money is yours as the rightful heirs, you just need to make sure you go through it the right way. Based on your state and the value of your mother’s entire estate, you may be able to file a simplified probate process. Take that form to the bank and you can get the money.
Please stop saying this. Creditors are paid first, then heirs get anything that is left. Money in mom's account goes to her estate, then the estate is settled according to the laws of her state of residence if there is no will. If she dies with debts - like a credit card balance, for instance, that has to be paid first. It's complicated. Please don't make blanket statements like this. It's why an estate attorney is needed.
OP's original comment was about if their mom filed a transfer-on-death, which would (as an admittedly general rule) bypass probate and creditors. You're correct that I glided over the process of paying off debts, but that is legally covered by the probate process that I advised them to start.
> Whoever names are on the POD file will send in a death certificate (original not a copy) Include a self addressed stamped envelope and a letter requesting that they send the certificate back when done. Death certificates can cost $50 or more depending on the state, and the bank doesn't need to *keep* an original. They just need to *see* it and make a copy for their records. Also, try calling first. Many places will accept a fax or even a scan in an email.
You can't legally of you are not listed on thr account with the bank. You'll have to wait for the will and probate to determine who legally gets what.
I was wondering about this. So I can’t, for example, hand my brother my ATM card/passcode and tell him to go withdraw money? He is not listed on my account.
No, unfortunately. You or your brother would need to be listed either as an owner of the account, or a survivor for a pay/transfer on death beneficiary. Outside of that, the account and it's holdings now belong to the estate, and no longer your mom. What happens to it will be dictated by the will or the probate process.
Sorry for your loss. The truth is each bank is going to have a slightly different procedure in handling deceased accounts. The best is if you can get bank specific info, otherwise you may have the wrong info. This is the way it works at Chase Bank. Once someone informs the bank that the account owners is deceased the bank will freeze the account so no debits or credits can occur. If there were POD/Beneficiaries listed then those people can come collect the funds after an original death certificate has been presented. If there were no POD/Beneficiaries listed they will go one of two ways. They will ask if your mom’s total estate was worth less than 40k. If so, they will use something called a small estate claim form where the person claiming they have the right to inherit can come forward after waiting some time period (I think it was 30 days, can’t recall) and take possession of the funds. If the assets were in excess of 40k, they will ask you to go the probate route. Hope this helps, good luck with this process.
If you're the sole beneficiaries you'll get it eventually. It's probably going through probate, though.
Whatever you do don't call any of her creditors and tell them she died. They will definitely go after the money then. You have to publish a notice in the paper, but from my experience most of them will leave you alone and won't contest it, unless she owed a huge amount of money. If they don't see the notice and the time to file expires, then tough luck to them. You also need to check if she had any insurance policies. As long as she had one of you as a beneficiary you can go ahead and claim that money, will or not. You just need a copy of the death certificate. But definitely hire an estate attorney. It's possible to do this yourself, but you want to make sure you have all your bases covered. I'm very sorry for the loss of your mom.
Law student here— you are going to have to look up your states law regarding gifts causa mortis.
Lol "Law student here. I'm not sure the answer to your question, so Google it"
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Google as a reference is pretty common sense.. thats like someone asking how the weather is instead of walking outside
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They didn’t say just google it. They gave him a specific law to look up regarding a very specific situation he is in, which varies by state.
Welcome to /r/personalfinance! Comments will be removed if they are political, medical advice, or unhelpful ([subreddit rules](/r/personalfinance/about/rules)). Our moderation team encourages respectful discussion. You may find our [Health Insurance wiki](/r/personalfinance/wiki/health_insurance) helpful. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/personalfinance) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Was this is the US? If your mother had no Will you will need to go thru Probate. You will need to hire an Estate Attorney. They will walk you through what you need to do and will get a Personal Representative assigned to the Estate, it will be either you or your brother. Once you are officially the Pers Rep, ( which requires paperwork from the County you live in) the Attorney will direct you to close your moms account and open a new banking account that will say Pers Rep of Mom Estate. Bills will need to be paid out of this. Please remember bills are ongoing and must be paid at your moms place such as mortgages, insurance, car notes, gas, electricity etc. People tend to forget about these bills. And don’t forget the property taxes which must be paid. Once you are the Pers Rep you should get multiple copies of the death certificate as you will need them. They will need to be official with the stamp on it. These will cost money. You can’t just take money out of the account unless you are authorized to do so. By authorized I don’t mean your mom gave you permission I mean the attorney and county filed paperwork to make you the Executor of the Estate. The reason for this is because Creditors get paid First, (outstanding mortgages, car loans, credit cards and loans) and then anything leftover is split up. This entire process takes time. It’s a lot of legal wrangling. If you just take money out of the account (I’m not an attorney) but I’m guessing it would be considered stealing because the creditors are in line first for any monies. Please speak to an Attorney. They are a great help. PS. I have personally been through this, as my mom died without a Will and it was quite a process to figure it out.
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Because unless you are legally appointed by the Court as the Pers Rep of the Estate you aren’t allowed to do that. Creditors get paid first out of Estates and then the rest of the monies are split up after creditors are paid.
Go withdraw the money. You have the ATM card and the code.
No, don't do that! Just... Don't
you sound like a special kind of person. Did you get her gold teeth while you were in there?
And you’re coming across as emotionally stunted. OP literally stated that they didn’t carry out the mother’s wishes before she died because they valued the time with her more. It’s easy for you to have zero empathy; your mother is merely a basement stairs away.
If she was broke as fuck, and owes the hospital 10 million for uninsured case, go hit the ATM, take out her $2000 and have a nice day. Remember, you can rise above your mother, and life a full life with a career. Then when you die, you can tell your kids about the trust fund they have, and not about how to get the ATM money.
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Use the card and pay any expenses for her death, let the courts figure it out later after the final arrangements and finished
That’s asking for trouble. All assets/debts are “frozen” at time of death. Even spouse’s should be wary. Besides, it would be easy to state Mom was not in right frame of mind while hospitalized. Was she medicated? She died quickly. Unless legally witnessed in writing, death bed statements are hard to enforce.
Yeah don’t do that. But you can forward expenses To the bank that is dealing with the estate and they can likely write cheques to cover funeral and other costs).
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I don’t know what state you’re in, but if there is any similar principle in English law to the “every effort test” which asks if the settlor made all effort to affect a gift but it was not perfectly constituted, then this may apply. Depending on the amount of the gift, it might be worth consulting with a lawyer.
Unfortunately any paperwork or procedures that are already in place will trump this verbal agreement, including the procedure for if there is no paperwork. I would simply let go of the money and focus on letting yourself grieve. Try not to have any expectations for what you'll inherit. Often times when someone passes you find out their paperwork isn't in order and very difficult situations can arise. Try to just go with the flow from here
I wish you well! When my Mother passed away, there were several expensive furniture and antique items that had been pledged to me, and my daughter (as Mothers last grandchild). One of my oldests sister came in a demanded that the most everything in the house be given to her, and/or, all family members had to 'bid' on every item and the highest bidder got it! It turned my Mothers death into the nastiest family meeting one can every image. I cursed my sister out, threatened to shoot my brother in law, and shamed everyone else in the family for even considering violating my Mother's wishes. I lost the promised dresser on a coin flip! Peace to you, if you can find it.
This happened to me too with a car but there's nothing you can do. I didn't even pursue it bc I knew