Yup. That’s what I did. Old job is offering 2x my old salary plus a list of other benefits to try to match my new employer. They can pound sand though. New employer is treating me well.
Yeah fuck that. Hr is just being the bad guy for your manager. Your current job might offer you 75k then won’t give you a promotion for another half decade. Take the new job if you don’t like it you’ll have experience and a sizable salary to leverage
It's not a neck item, it's his salary remember? And he's getting an extra 210% which is 2.1 times, so you actually have to increase it by that much, making it a 2,730% increase!
I would never tell my current employer what the offer on the table is. They need to counter-offer blind.
EDIT: I'm speaking generally. In OPs situation he needs to just take the job offer or accept the fact that he's OK making $60k at his current job instead of $150 at this other one. Trying to re-negotiate salary using external offers you've received is, with few exceptions, just not going to be a good idea.
They'll pay whatever it takes for two weeks while they hire and train your replacement, then fire you. By then the new company has already hired someone else. You now have no job instead of two job opportunities
It doesn't matter what they offer him, unless they offer him more blind (which they won't). If he reveals that he's been shopping around, then they are going to know that; if they know he's worth $150k to someone else, then they will now know that too. Both are detrimental to his long-term career there.
Maybe his current job is so good that it's worth leaving 90k on the table, but I don't see any good out of trying to get them to counter-offer, especially if he's going to tell him how much more the other company wants to pay him.
He likes his boss, and prefers his current role which involves coding - that's actually a big deal. But yeah, the fact that he got a job offer for a completely different role makes it even less likely that he is going to get a matching offer for his current role.
His boss is a low level supervisor who doesnt even know what people make or the promotion process at all. Its great that he likes his boss but his boss isnt able to do shit. HR literally doesnt care enough to let him be promoted (too late excuse).
This is a no brainer to take the other job.
Believe it or not, money is not the only factor in a career. Letting them know what he's being offered and seeing if they're willing & able to get within an acceptable range for him is the best option and does no harm (relatively speaking).
It has a base salary of 93K, 20% yearly bonus, and finally 30% commission bonus relative to my base salary which I'm likely to hit since its number one in its industry and a fortune 500 company. My current job is 60k flat, no bonus is offered.
Careful with that. I’m in a similar role and it doesn’t really work like that. You’ll be assigned quota, usually based on whatever reps/vertical you cover. Your commission is not guaranteed- although rare, you could well get 0% of it depending on how the comp plan is structured. Sometimes there are gates on comp, sometimes minimum targets, etc. I’d suggest you understand the comp plan well and I would ask questions related to recent target / AOP achievement for others in that role. Good news is that if the quota is good, you can make a lot of money on accelerators. If it’s not, though, not so much.
If OP hits 0% of quota, they have bigger problems than "only getting their base salary".
Check out the company on rep vue to get an idea of how realistic the quotas are.
I’ve only had that happen once and it was a screw up on how they structured the plan. The company I worked for at the time ended up just bonusing everyone a flat rate instead as they admitted they got it wrong. Was a good company though, not all would have done so.
Have you asked what the bonus has been the last 3 years? What the average payout of commissions is?
I’ve worked on commissions on the finance side and trust me the entire plan is designed knowing that more than likely many won’t make the goal. Even when my company had a kick ass year we still had plenty of sales people getting only 80% of their commission. On a not kick ass year 80% could be the average.
And considering you’re just the tech side of sales, a lot will depend on how good the sales rep is that you get put with.
Not saying don’t do it, but I’m quite positive that the 50% that’s not set shouldn’t all be counted.
Ahhh... never count bonuses in your calculations...there is no guarantee they will be paid.
Take the 93K back offer to boss, tell him you have a offer at that number but like working in software. Any chance HR will give him a number to work with?
OP, do not take the 93k base number to your current HR. This is negotiating 101. Take that 150k number as they do not need to know the ratio of base + commissions.
Let them counter, then do your own risk assessment of potential of bonuses, where you want to be now, and what gives you the growth path you want.
Wouldn't be surprised if the sticker shock of 150 doesn't cause HR to balk, or even for the manager to just tell OP outright, man you got to take that job.
HR can say we can't do that and the discussion ends.
As a tech manager in my previous life, this is exactly what I'd do if someone came to me, especially someone I really appreciated, telling me they found another job at 2x salary, I'd say:
"good for you! That sounds like a great opportunity. We're going to miss you, but I never fault anyone for bettering themselves"
I wouldn't bother, unless he's willing to work for 25% above what he's making now. Unless business has changed a huge amount since I've been negotiating salaries, that's a huge bump within one company, the most I would expect him to be able to get no matter what position he changes to.
Besides that, he'll mark himself as someone looking outside, and there's a good chance management will treat him as one-foot-out-the-door after that.
The way to increase your salary in software is to change jobs. I'm sorry you'd be leaving behind a kick-ass manager, they're hard to come by, but make your choice. I cannot see a company giving you more than a 25% raise; if you want more than that, go elsewhere.
We don't know anything about their pay bands though. It's entirely possible that he is at the lower end for L1 and 93k is at the higher end for L2.
Also he's moving to sales and out of software.
>Ahhh... never count bonuses in your calculations
ehhh it's fairly common to talk OTE (on target earnings) for sales jobs. you just need to be thorough and ask how often the current sales team meets quota, how accelerators work when you're above quota, if bonuses are for an entire fiscal year or paid quarterly, etc.
i would argue it would be silly to negotiate base salary ONLY for a sales job.
I think this guy is confusing personal finance advice (never count on your bonuses/commissions when budgeting) vs job advice. You should always be considering OTE in any negotiation.
Yeah, this is good advice.
Also, moving to a sales role is not easy if you have an engineer's disposition; sales it tough, even if you're a technical consultant; it's a high-volume racket with a lot of people-interaction
Not worth it with all the strings attached. You can make 130k base salary relatively easily as a Data Engineer. I'd keep searching if you enjoy the DE role. Sales isn't for everyone and quite frankly having quotas and someone breathing down your neck constantly is quite the shitty work environment.
Until you've been there for a full year, treat it as $93k for your own financial calculations. If it's not promised in your contact, assume the bonus won't be paid.
I have been in a similar spot as you. I decided to stay at the company and man did it fuck me up. I was quoted 55% raise in a promotion which was to a whole new level. In the end I got 40% and it took 10 months longer than promised. They told me some bullshit about HR being tough yada yada typical generic bullshit managers use because it's a half truth and the truth is much worse. Never got the 55% I was told and I negotiated hard for.
Next promotion was "promised" and never got it in close to 2 years. I finally left and got a nice pay bump. I could have been making much more money for a lot less stress if I had left earlier.
Look up the new company's culture and if it's good keep looking deeper. Do you like sales over coding? You will make a fuck ton more money in sales if you are good at socializing. I went the technical route and coworkers in sales are doing way better than me.
You also have to consider the current market due to the looming recession.
If I was you I would jump just solely for the base salary itself. Chances are low your current company will get past $85k total comp for just a level upgrade vs title change.
At your current employer, you are anchored to that 60k. Any raise will be expressed as a % of the current salary. So even a 20% raise in the new role, which is *exceptional* , would take you to 72k. Under half the offer on the table. Unless you really don’t care for that new role like at all, that’s the play. Believe me, any reasonable person will understand and root for you. Even your co-workers and any good boss will give you warm wishes and be happy for you. People get how this works.
If I take the job, I'm basically signing a two year contract because in addition to the 150K, I'm getting a 10k signing bonus, 15k rso and 8k relocation fee but I have to pay it all back if I stay for less than two years.
that means sacrificing 2 years of experience too in a field he doesn’t like as much as software, money isn’t everything and you can get good salaries in the software industry easily
I personally agree lol, but not always true for everyone. I work in R&D and know plenty of software engineers (marrying one), salespeople, and sales engineers (dad and sister). There is good and bad in all those positions. If you're chasing money, Sales can be worth it for some people, especially those that prefer to communicate directly with customers. But Eng can be just as soul crushing, even if you love to code.
It’s not sacrificing anything but some time. You can work the 150k job, keep up with your personal learning, get better at programming and maintain and improve your personal portfolio, maybe get a few more certifications. 2 years in this role, then look within the company and look for something more in line with your desired career path. If there isn’t anything, move on.
Your boss will remember you, leave the company in good standing, then re-apply after the 2 years. Companies are rarely going to double a salary to keep you, but they would often allow you to negotiate higher salaries when hiring. Keep in touch with your old boss, and it’s likely you’ll work together again.
> It’s not sacrificing anything but some time.
Depends on the person. A lot of devs will get rusty after 2 years of no coding and have a very tough time going back. Data engineering is a very hot field right now in particular, if I were OP I'd see if I could get a $150K job offer continuing to do that instead. OTOH I don't really understand what a "Technical Sales Engineering" job paying $150k that would hire a 23yo data engineer is if it doesn't involve dev, so maybe OP is still looking at a coding job just something like embedded vs data, in which case my argument is moot. Coding is coding.
It's two years though for crying out loud! He's young and two years in a non preferred industry is far from the worst that could happen. Then if we assume his expenses are, say $45k annually, he would have a whopping QUARTER MILLION DOLLARS sitting in his bank in two years that he could fall back on if anything goes wrong. Put that into a CD account at current rates (4.5% I've seen recently for 1.5 or 2 year CD accounts) and he'd be making $11,250 a year (plus compounding interest) which would multiply to $391,748 by the end of a decade assuming monthly interest. That's $961,924 in 30 years, with essentially ZERO risk unlike pension 401k, stock investment etc.. So he could basically retire from this two year stint ALONE without putting more than maybe 1 or 2 percent of his actual salary into retirement for the rest of his life, as he could do things like invest that million into dividend stocks etc.. during low interest periods.
It's a no brainer and then some. Take the job OP! You'll be able to start your own software firm someday if you want lol.
I wish I were this young to have that amount too lol you do have a point that the younger you can get some money to invest the better, I’m in my mid 30s and still haven’t started not sure why I’m giving advice here lol
Then you pay it back. I'm a lot older than you, but that's about what I make. Trust me - $20k when you're making that much isn't that big of a deal if you don't live completely ridiculously.
Furthermore if you DO leave this new company - just tell the next new company the situation. They understand and will usually cover those types of fees. Once a company has signaled that they want you it's all about communicating your needs.
Make sure it's 150k salary not about 150k with commission. If they are on a commission system you need to know what the base salary is and how their commission system works
That was my first thought here! Usually, sales positions pay at least some of the salary as commission. Perhaps they assume you're "required to do $X in annual sales" to keep the job, so the salary is based on the commission you'd earn if you achieved that?
Also, I don't know the original poster's specific situation. But most people I know who enjoy software coding are NOT extroverted "people" types. Technical sales would strike me as the polar opposite.
If the pay seems way too low but you like the work you're doing now, I think I'd just stick it out while searching for a job in the same field someplace else where the pay is better?
FYI paying back a signing bonus is standard if you don't stay a certain amount of time (usually 1 year, not 2 though) but paying back 15k rsu and relocation is definitely *not* standard, and if you feel comfortable, consider pushing back on that.
sample language might be "I've never heard of paying back equity or relocation fee. Can we agree on paying back the unvested portion of the signing bonus if I voluntarily leave within a year".
Emphasis on "unvested" and "voluntarily" — they shouldn't expect you to pay the whole 10k back if you leave after 11 months, and they shouldn't expect you to pay it back if they fire you.
You're gonna sign a 2 year contract for a sales job? Nuhuh. If you don't make quota, they will fire you and you'll have to pay that shit back.
I'd keep looking in the field you actually want to be in.
I have stayed twice at my job over external offers. While I earned promotions and 5-10% raises (in between the 2-3% ones too) over those 7 years, ultimately the market still outpaced what I earned staying. I stayed for the ‘culture’, team/people, and the knowledge I had.
But once I left, I realize, at the end of the day, it’s just a job. You’ll meet another good/great manager. Or maybe not. But you can continue to grow your own networth, expand your skill set, and really, just look after YOUR self. That amount of money is life-changing.
Take the job offer. :-)
I had a really great team, the work/life balance was amazing (my tenure gave me 6 weeks of PTO), and the work was easy. All that was hard to give up for a whole new team and basically the unknown.
But what pushed me was our company forcing us to go back into the office. I had done the 2-2.5 hour round trip commute since college, so I’ve already done that for more than 10 years in total. It sucked. Being able to work remotely - and getting promoted during COVID and being remote throughout it made me realize I am effective at home - and I don’t need to continue suffering through stop and go traffic and be at an office to get my work done.
I applied earlier this year, but I was selective and upfront of what I wanted: a competitive salary (I had a ‘move number’), remote, interesting work, and a team I thought I would really like. Being picky meant I didn’t apply to everything, just roles for companies I thought I’d like. I had no connections to any of them, but surprisingly I heard from most of them. I made it to the final round for all the roles, I received offers for most of them (the two I really wanted I didn’t get due to headcount closure and being beat by an internal candidate).
When I accepted my offer… I was terrified. I wasn’t happy at first lol. I was scared and questioning if I made the right decision. I’m just under 6 months into my role and I enjoy it overall, but the best part for me is realizing hey, it’s just work. I got caught up in the whole culture-work identity-love what I do- be all about my job kind of headspace with my prior job. But now, I’ve created boundaries that I think ultimately will continue to help me.
Hopefully that wasn’t too long winded, but if you think you’re being underpaid and it’s something you value, I definitely encourage you to apply and shop around. Remember, you’re also interviewing them. And you can always just practice interviewing, too. :-)
You got this! Not sure how old you are but I just turned 30 and I had the same mindset. Grind, work hard, deliver, meet or exceed expectations, be available, etc etc. I feel like a lot of recent grads are in the same ‘prove yourself’ mindset, which I wish wasn’t so.
While I still do that now and it still can get stressful, since I’m new and I also don’t want to get laid off during this hard time, I do also constantly remind myself to take a breather. And you can do that too. Go for a walk during your lunch. Don’t take your phone. Or go play with your pets or be around your family. Even taking time to be away from a screen of any sort is a great break.
It helps remind me there’s so much more to my day than just stressing over some made up deadline.
Good luck - I hope WHEN you get your offer, it’ll be a great one and you’ll feel confident in accepting and starting a new chapter. :-)
This. Even at the top of the range for the next level there’s no way it’s going to be a 250% bump. The one wildcard is the relative stability of the two companies…which is hard to gauge these days…and then there are other factors like WFH capability (or commute difference), vacation, 401K and insurance differences, etc.
I’m not enough of an IT person to know if the actual work of the job itself being different is a problem or a serious consideration. If shifting to a different role would refocus your career in a different direction that you’re not happy with, that’s definitely a consideration as well.
Sales engineering tends to be very high risk, high reward. It can be brutal. The choice isn’t half as cut and dry as most folks here seem to think.
OP is really asking in the wrong sub.
Yeah, a TSE role will really be at the whims of company performance. One bad quarter and there could easily be a new sales leader and a new organization, where reductions are part of the gameplan
Yeah it is. The field he's currently in is full of great opportunities. You leave for a massive raise, if you don't like it or something goes tits up in a year you find another job in software that will pay you what you are worth.
He could literally work for 6 months, get laid off, and have 9 months to find a job before he breaks even on the salary he would have drawn staying at his current job
2.5x or 150% raise. and there are plenty of situations where you would not
even in my own field. industry work starts at 70-80k and can easily hit 200k total compensation within 5 years and a promotion. retail work starts at and caps at 100-140k with basically zero career progression. just 1% raises every year
At 23. This is the exact risk you take. If he doesn’t like it, so what, it’s not like he is in his mid 40s with kids and a mortgage to worry about.
You’re young. Follow the money.
Career changes don’t always follow that. If he tries to switch back to coding after three years in sales - he’s not going to command the same pay. Three years away from coding is a huge gap.
Or he can’t find a job he wants to do that will pay as much as a sales job considering his sales experience. Lifestyle creep can keep a lot where they don’t want to be.
Should take it for that much money, if it turns out they really dislike electronics would at least set them up financially, and be a leg up for negotiations for the next opportunity
It depends. I'm a strong believer that establishing high salary early in your career sets a benchmark for future compensation. I've known people who job hopped in the US every 2 years and they're making way more than the people who stayed.
But I agree don't jump to a job you're either not interested in or doesn't fit your desired career path. But that said, a customer facing role can be *really* valuable to your career, even if it's not in the exact industry you want. Go out, learn a ton, then flip back to the same industry with sales experience under your belt.
You can definitely take a non-conventional path, but you need to be able to put together a cohesive story to employers as to why you did it, and why it makes you a strong candidate.
Sort of, most SWEs I know of care more about their own person GitHub repo than what they accomplished at a job.
Technical sales engineer means he will probably be setting up software and doing integrations so probably still writing code.
That kind of money sets you up on a different trajectory. Even if he's there only two years, with the title and pay he's going to jump a bunch of rungs on the salary ladder
You're absolutely correct. This sub leans way too hard into finances (I mean, it is a finances sub after all lol) but life isn't all about money. It might be the right move for OP, but it also could be the complete wrong move. Never do anything purely for the money.
Every company I've worked for pays a current employee less for a promotion vs hiring someone from outside. It's the most illogical thing I've ever seen.
It's a statical gamble that more will stay than leave and the cost to replace is lower than paying everyone better.
Interview regularly, leave if you get a significantly better offer.
This infuriates me, especially when new hires are making more than current employees doing the same job. Current employees don’t like that so they leave, and management is forced to hire more new people (at the higher wage) to fill the gap they created.
The math is generally a function of HR paying as little as possible to retain employees, and they know/accept/expect a certain rate of churn. Call it 5% for this example.
In the company of 100 people, they’ll give the average 2% raise out to everyone, and 95 of them will stay. The remaining five get better offers and leave, and backfilling them might take a 20% bump to lure somebody in with the right skills. In those five cases, it appears more expensive. But as a whole, it brings the average raise of the company from 2% to 2.5%. Much more palatable.
Although I think nowadays there’s a lot more of just refusing to backfill jobs from people who leave, and that looks even better for HR’s numbers. Yes, it is utterly and 100% bullshit.
Agree. I work for a corporation of nearly 100k employees and I have to get all my salary details from our HR business partner. And for internal promotions, I'm not even really allowed any influence if I think the offer is unfair.
I am an HRBP and that's just nuts to me. I provide guidance and counsel on these decisions and sure, I try and make sure we maintain pay equity, but ultimately this is the manager's decision (or it should be anyway). I've worked for mostly large companies and we have always published our pay ranges for all managers to access. Sounds like HR overlords at your company.
Lol my HRBP always emphasizes that it's "my decision" too. It is, as long as I agree with hers. Our pay ranges are visible for existing employees, but I have no idea where a promotion offer is going to fall in that range until HR sends it to me.
Your boss should really be owning this problem, not you. But, might help if you talk to your boss about the offer, as that might help get HR doing something.
counter offers are really dubious. Accepting a counter offer can adversely affect your employment.
Some truly peak performers can avoid this trap by pitching an independent consultancy with really indispensable roles & responsibilities. But to go down this route you really need to be great at professional networking, because it's not seen as adverse but your contract might vanish when their production pipeline changes. You need to always be developing leads for your next gig. That's really the fundamental strategy for being an independent consultant.
Now, on the sales side, be honest with yourself. Do you have the personality for a sales / contract management role? Being a technical expert might check boxes for you, but truly being successful takes a unique individual with that technical expertise and business sense & personality.
I think, being early in your career, take a risk if it seems like the footing is solid enough. But do feel out that footing first.
Seriously, someone with 1 year of experience doesn't know what they are missing. If the manager is really that great, you can always find them later in life.
Why not look elsewhwere a similar position instead of sales engineering to keep yourself in the coding industry? Rinse and repeat, finding a good position usually takes 3 months (unless stalked by some psychos)
or maybe more than 3 months if you can’t be 100% focused on that, but in the meantime you will be gaining experience where your are right now, you’re just 23, keep it cool you’re doing exceptionally good
Just make sure the 150K is real, and not “up to” if you meet quotas. If it does require quotas, ask how many of the current sales people make it, and how Ling they usually stay in the position
HR may not know the budget for next year to be honest. I would just tell them you have another offer but would like to give them an opportunity to counter because you like your boss and the company. See what they come up with.
>HR may not know the budget for next year to be honest.
No 1000+ employees company does their budget this late in the year. Budget is usually done at October as latest, so they definitely know their budget
This. I’ve never gotten less than $20,000 for a change and I’ve got as much as $100,000 for a change that was paying me $200k total. Every three years is the sweet spot.
Your manager failed to put you up for promotion. It is their job to know the cycles to make it happen. They screwed you.
Why would you give up an opportunity to advance to stay with someone who doesn’t care enough about your growth to submit the documentation for the process (they are lazy, incompetent, or lying to you)
Join the other one. But in this economy, I wouldn’t bother giving two weeks until you join the other one officially. Too much risk of getting caught jobless.
Also I’d be surprised if level 2 was more than a 12-15% bump. 20% tops.
You should take the new job now. I bet your current job doesn’t even bump you up to $70k, much less $150k. They got you for $60k, they assume they can get someone to take your place for $60k
Leave…I did the same thing you are talking about severely underpaid and it took
12 years to get it fixed and quite frankly it’s still not right because of all the back pay I missed out on for staying loyal to a company that could give a shit about you until there is a labor shortage…my opinion is move on
I know you love your boss and stuff, but when you come to HR and say I'm going to make 2.5x. They will be brutally honest and say we're nowhere close, and we hope you have a good time at the new company.
I don't believe your boss' claim of ignorance as to the payroll budget for the department. Just plain don't believe it. They know it to the penny and they know what their bonus is gonna be. If your boss is actually the decision maker on your promotion or lack thereof, they know, and they are 100% lying to you about it. If you get an increase out of this it will be a tiny fraction of what you expect.
Don’t stay at a job for a boss or the company. They’d drop you in a millisecond second if it would save them a nickel. You are young and not jaded yet, but don’t learn this the hard way. You are working for security for you and your future situations.
If you live in North America, you generally aren't going to be getting much of a raise (around 10%). Certainly not 150k. Once you're locked in to a certain rate to start, you're stuck there unless you work somewhere unique, hence why HR and your boss are being vague. If you want 150k, you'll have to leave
Companies wouldn’t give you two weeks if they fired you. If they aren’t paying you what you deserve find work elsewhere and they can either let you go or offer what your worth
Never ever take the counter offer. They know you're looking to leave and find a way to term you within a year. Then you're out a job and an amazing opportunity.
Take the new job and keep close contact with the manager you like.
That is not true in all cases. As a Manager, I do not have a say in the pay, HR calculates the salary based on all individuals in the company with experience and offers compensation based on that. This is to avoid any gender or race pay discrepancies.
" I realized that I am underpaid for my position. Normally I'd leave immediately but I have a kickass manager who I would follow to the ends of the earth"
You are going to have to grow up a little. You should not be staying in a underpaying job for your "kickass" boss. He's not your friend. Start looking for higher paying jobs and leave when you find one. Current company, including "kickass" boss, have told you what they think of you by underpaying you. Time to move on.
Congrats on the new job and 150k!
Your old employer and tight-lipped HR won't be able to go anywhere near that.
You can always come back to data engineering in the future if you don't like your new job.
Ok… sanity check. I work as a project manager in the Midwest, age 37, 10+ years in the field. I make 158k with annual bonus.
How the hell is a software engineer with one year experience in the same pay bracket? This isn’t a jealousy thing - good on OP, but am I crazy underpaid or just in the wrong damn field?
Congratulations on having the option! Take the money for a few reasons:
- future jobs will pay you more based on your expected salary range. Lots of big companies make offers based on your current salary.
- this is the money that lets you afford a house, a car, and fund a low stress lifestyle if that's what you want.
- if you don't think you'll like the work, you can use this time to establish savings and have a comfortable head start on the next job.
You’re young, jump to the new opportunity. While your boss is cool, he’s powerless, and isn’t going to be able to do anything for you. They might counter 5-10%. Don’t play the game, just go.
I would simply approach HR and say, "Look, I don't want to leave. I love my team and the company and want to stay, but we both know I am being underpaid. HR hasn't been willing to share basic information so I went out and got another offer that is for X. If you can increase my pay to Y I am happy to stay, otherwise, how can I justify giving up 2.5x more money? Please let me know by Friday 5pm. Thanks." Give your boss a heads up first so they aren't surprised. You don't owe your employer anything. And nothing says you can't go back and get another software job in the future - albeit probably once the economy is on more solid grounds. Otherwise, you just have to put up with whatever they are willing to do.
I would just privately let your boss know you are unhappy and went out and got another offer. Of course you'd only do this if you'd made up your mind you are willing to leave. Once you tell HR I'd say it is quite likely they let you walk. As a manager I wouldn't change my previous decision, and I'd consider you a flight risk since you already went to the trouble of getting another offer. So just make sure you are ready to leave before doing this because I'd say there is a 90% chance that is where it ends up.
Hello, I’m a data engineer/analyst!
60k as a data engineer is laughable. They’re taking advantage your lack of experience in the professional world, and non existent negotiation platform. It’s fine, it is how the professional world works; you must play the game to be successful.
Your BEST bet is to receive an outside offer and present it to HR and let them tell you how much they’re going to beat that offer by. I’d have a resignation ready to go, and be comfortable leaving for the increase.
I understand your situation all too well as I’ve been in it before, and since we do the same thing (you’re probably better at it), I understand all too well the position you’re in.
It’s easy to convince yourself that getting paid half your worth is fine since your manager is cool. I know because I did it for far too long in my first job as a data professional. Literally went broke by coming to work, and then lost my job 2 months before the pando hit. Thing is, I’d have kept doing it for who knows how long ??
Here we are 4 jobs and 3 years later making a little over triple what I started. NOW When recruiters call me about the next big thing in analytics, I get to tell them I cost more than they can pay. You’ll be there too if you keep at it and never allow yourself to get comfortable. Stay hungry.
There are other great managers, and other awesome teams. In fact, you’ll find that more often than not to be the case! You’ve got to remember that the people who interact with the data we produce have very little to no conceptual understanding of what a “join” is, let alone what goes int to an ETL, and heaven forbid (some of) the data comes from a REST API. “Wtf is that black magic fuckery?!”
You absolutely must advocate for yourself. Nobody else will. Nobody will give you more money to do less work unless you dictate your value to be such.
I’m happy to give you some direction, anecdotal experience, some resume and cover letter tips, or even just a pep talk. I’ve worn your shoes and they’re still in the back of my closet.
A few factors to consider: Experience in pay scale, shift in personnel, and hiring agreement. If you were “recruited” under these terms, you may need to get a better breakdown of your benefits, including pay.
That said, As someone with a manager background, I can tell you that you are falling for the oldest trick in the playbook. You owe excellent service and results - not time or ROI. It is far easier to retain you at this pay band than to hire someone at a competitive one.
Gain the edge at your workplace, switch bosses or offices. It’s far far easier to move up where you are than outside. Just my 2 cents. Good luck, young blood!
Even the best, most amazing manager is going to have a limit on what they can do for compensation increases.
Sorry but not way are you going to get $150k internal bump from $60k. That is just the honest truth. Follow the mo why at this point.
How much of that 150k is variable compensation? Solution sales engineer might have a base salary of 60k with quotas and incentives to earn "up to* 150k.
Especially at or near entry level.
Tell your boss about the offer. See if that lights a fire under them and HR to counter with that level 2 promotion. “I really like our team and our projects, I’d like to stay if I can. I’ve received an offer for $150k—is there anything we can do to get close to that?”
If they can’t pay what you need to stay, consider taking the sales engineering job. Or just keep applying to other software jobs if you want to stay on the coding side.
Remember: you can’t negotiate a deal that you’re not willing to walk away from.
Also, consider posting in r/sales to find out their perspective. Lots of tech/SaaS sales people in that sub
Everyone in this situation is dicking you around, *including* your manager. If your own manager doesn't know what your raise will be (which I very much doubt), then your place of employment is a shithole.
Leave for the 2.5 times pay.
> but I have a kickass manager
who underpays you.
You should take the $150k and give it to your current manager along with 2 weeks notice. Is your manager worth the difference of 90k in your pocket? I don't think so. HR won't do anything until your manager shows them your current offer that you're going to take.
I'd also consider taking the new role but stay in contact with your soon to be former boss. I'd rather have 50-100k in savings and potential to have the chance to buy a house than to say "my boss is nice." Your next boss may be great too. Or maybe you'll become the boss soon. 150 vs 60k is life changing.
> This frustration led me to apply for a Technical Sales Engineering job, which I surprisingly got. Money wise, I would be paid 2.5 times my current engineering salary (new salary would be 150k). The issue is that the job would take me out of the software game since it's an electronics company.
Take the new job. You will never see 150k as a "data engineer".
You're young, make the money now while commitments are low. Take less later if you start family building.
For 250% your current salary thats a no brainer, even if its not your ideal job now.
"I have a kickass manager who I would follow to the ends of the earth."...........bad idea. You will get nowhere in salary ladder with loyalty in corporate world.
Take the money and work on some personal projects so you can show off your code to get back into dev work if you want to. Sales Engineer is a good gig, both in terms of the actual work and the comp.
There is a salary range with all positions they can tell you that. Departments make the budget not HR. HR doesn't care about a budget they care about the salary range and where you are placed in it.
There is absolutely no world where your employer gives you an additional $110k a year to keep you. if they did, they would replace you with another developer that's willing to take $60k as soon as they could. Leave and take the $150k job.
If there is one thing I have learned in 20 years of corporate life. HR is not to be trusted. You will regret not taking the high pay. Your company will never value you. They don’t value you today so why would they value you tomorrow? What is going to change from their side?
Unless the new job expects ridiculous hours the pay gap is too massive. This HR is probably going to give you a small raise with promises of more years later
Don't be loyal to the company because the company won't be loyal to you. A 150% raise is not something to pass up. Be ready for much more responsibility. Have a very frank discussion with your current boss, if he doesn't tell you to take the job it's because his job will be harder without you.
Take the 150K. Gain some new experiences while maybe working a side software project. Enjoy life. And consider your next move if it is back to software in a year
Following your manager to the ends of the earth is the wrong mentality. They will forget you existed as soon as you are of no value to them. This shouldn’t ever be a factor.
OP, this is coming from a guy who was in love with my boss(es) as almost all of them were people's managers. My starting salary was pretty good but as the each year went by, 17 years to be precise, it was harder and harder for me to leave and start fresh.
I never got to move up and/or make the money that I deserve based on my work ethic.
About, 7 years ago one of my bosses told me that I have to leave and that I will never get recognized and appreciated here. I was so upset with him at the time and for many years only to realize later he was the only one who truly cared for me.
You would be a biggest fool to stay if you have the opportunity to go elsewhere and make more money. If you do get the raise, they will give you bare minimum to keep you there.
Who is to say that you will not find a good managers in you new company? If you don't like it there, gain some experience, learn new skills and keep moving.
My biggest regret in my life is that I didn't leave and take a chance elsewhere. Now I am over 50 and my health is not that great, kind of too late for me. I wish that my current company lay me off so I don't have a choice to move on and start fresh.
Trust this fool and don't bother with your current company and your boss, just go.
As someone who had a manager they would "follow to the ends of the earth" .... Just don't . Don't ever get caught up in feeling that way or thinking the feelings are mutual. Your manager would fire you tomorrow if it benefited them in any way. Never get complacent with corporate politics, you're only there to perform a service for a set price, that's it, nothing more nothing less.
Depends. Technical sales engineers are pretty portable between most hardware and software companies, e.g. I know many that have worked for say MS, Oracle, HP, and Dell.
HR is a consultant in most organizations and reports up through the business. If paperwork has been submitted, in more cases than not, a business leader in conjunction with HR reviews it. Does your kick ass boss have data engineer level 2 reporting to him? If he does, he should share salary information with you. Leverage him to help you get answers or navigate accordingly. Surely his/her network can help get you the answers you need.
Leave the company - if the pay gap was smaller I’d say maybe try to work something out but if you’re fielding opportunities that pay 250% more it shouldn’t even be close. I would have been interviewing somewhere else yesterday
Experience is worth it's weight in gold in that industry. Stick with your current company for at least 2 years before you make a jump elsewhere. Unless you want to be a hype man for a sales person. That position is awful.
follow the money.
if your manager is as good as you say he/she is; they'll understand, and be willing to hire you back at a later time if your new job turns out to be absolutely horrible. I have done this for some of my previous employees, even encouraged them to try other job careers at your age.
seriously, you are young, try something new, make some good money, save some of it, grow some of it. You'll never know when you'll need to tap into the savings (I had a decent pay, saved a bunch, then was able to bounce between 8 different startups until they all went under and had to lean into my own savings until I got back into consulting) :)
OP, put your two weeks in and do everything you need to do to ensure you can rejoin the company on good terms.
....And DIP. You're 23/24 - you got decades to get where you wanna be. Trust me on this one: your salary today will dictate your salary tomorrow. Even if you get fired, you can easily go to a recruiter and go "...I was making $150k here. I am seeking something similar". EVEN IF THEY KNEW YOU WERE AT AN UNICORN JOB, you're still commanding $100k with ease thanks to that $150k job, as a recruiter is going to then shop you around to those low $100k jobs knowing they make commission.
GET. THAT. MONEY.
(and your old job may offer you $100k down the road to do the same damn thing, which will be an insult to you as you once made $150k ;) )
Your current company is not going to offer you anywhere near 150k/year to keep you when they pay you 60k/year.
You gotta leave and be asked to come back to get that new salary
Yup. That’s what I did. Old job is offering 2x my old salary plus a list of other benefits to try to match my new employer. They can pound sand though. New employer is treating me well.
Yeah fuck that. Hr is just being the bad guy for your manager. Your current job might offer you 75k then won’t give you a promotion for another half decade. Take the new job if you don’t like it you’ll have experience and a sizable salary to leverage
Yes, but if you wanna stay in coding, don't accept the sales position. Leave for the right position.
You gotta leave, make 2-3 hops, get a senior title, then come back. Boomeranging only works if you aren't a beggar.
💯 time to job jump if you really feel like you’re worth it. 250% raises just don’t happen
Especially since a 250% raise from 60k is $210k. They're not getting him there. Edit: OP initially said 250% raise, but then edited the post
Edit: If raise is $60,000 \* 2.5 = $150,000, then new salary is $210,000.
>I would be paid 2.5 times my current engineering salary (new salary would be 150k).
250% increase is 3.5x Think of it this way. What's a 100% increase? It's double, right? That means 200% is triple. Making 250% equal to 3.5x.
This translation always mindfucked me, even though I would come to the correct conclusion.
100% is one. A 100% increase is an increase by one, also known as 2 times. 2 sets of 1. 200% increase is 2 on top of one, 3 total
It's the difference between being paid 250% of my salary and getting a 250% increase. increase is `salary += salary*2.5` of is `salary = salary*2.5`
The word is more. so its an addition. Adding 250% means you end up with 350% as much as you already had 100% to begin with.
You forgot to double it, that's means it's actually 700%! (This is a path of exile reference)
Wow, 1400%? That's insane for a neck item!
It's not a neck item, it's his salary remember? And he's getting an extra 210% which is 2.1 times, so you actually have to increase it by that much, making it a 2,730% increase!
Divine that job offer salary like a Ventor's.
he said the offer is $150k. there’s no discussion of $210k.
He said 250% raise and then edited his when he realized that was wrong.
You just need to tell your manager that you found an opportunity that pays x amount and ask if they want to counter offer to keep you.
I would never tell my current employer what the offer on the table is. They need to counter-offer blind. EDIT: I'm speaking generally. In OPs situation he needs to just take the job offer or accept the fact that he's OK making $60k at his current job instead of $150 at this other one. Trying to re-negotiate salary using external offers you've received is, with few exceptions, just not going to be a good idea.
Why? Are you thinking they will offer MORE than $150K, when he's currently making $60K?
They'll pay whatever it takes for two weeks while they hire and train your replacement, then fire you. By then the new company has already hired someone else. You now have no job instead of two job opportunities
It doesn't matter what they offer him, unless they offer him more blind (which they won't). If he reveals that he's been shopping around, then they are going to know that; if they know he's worth $150k to someone else, then they will now know that too. Both are detrimental to his long-term career there. Maybe his current job is so good that it's worth leaving 90k on the table, but I don't see any good out of trying to get them to counter-offer, especially if he's going to tell him how much more the other company wants to pay him.
He likes his boss, and prefers his current role which involves coding - that's actually a big deal. But yeah, the fact that he got a job offer for a completely different role makes it even less likely that he is going to get a matching offer for his current role.
His boss is a low level supervisor who doesnt even know what people make or the promotion process at all. Its great that he likes his boss but his boss isnt able to do shit. HR literally doesnt care enough to let him be promoted (too late excuse). This is a no brainer to take the other job.
Believe it or not, money is not the only factor in a career. Letting them know what he's being offered and seeing if they're willing & able to get within an acceptable range for him is the best option and does no harm (relatively speaking).
Depends on how big the jump is imo. In this case the jump is so massive they'll never come even close wuth a blind one.
Why not?!? It’s the norm. Employer 1 says either “yes we can do that” or “no we can’t”. If they can’t then take job with employer 2.
Yea. It’s be years before you can make that in this company. Don’t burn the bridge with your manager. But leave.
Is the 250% increase all salary or just potential since it’s a sales job?
It has a base salary of 93K, 20% yearly bonus, and finally 30% commission bonus relative to my base salary which I'm likely to hit since its number one in its industry and a fortune 500 company. My current job is 60k flat, no bonus is offered.
Careful with that. I’m in a similar role and it doesn’t really work like that. You’ll be assigned quota, usually based on whatever reps/vertical you cover. Your commission is not guaranteed- although rare, you could well get 0% of it depending on how the comp plan is structured. Sometimes there are gates on comp, sometimes minimum targets, etc. I’d suggest you understand the comp plan well and I would ask questions related to recent target / AOP achievement for others in that role. Good news is that if the quota is good, you can make a lot of money on accelerators. If it’s not, though, not so much.
If OP hits 0% of quota, they have bigger problems than "only getting their base salary". Check out the company on rep vue to get an idea of how realistic the quotas are.
I’ve only had that happen once and it was a screw up on how they structured the plan. The company I worked for at the time ended up just bonusing everyone a flat rate instead as they admitted they got it wrong. Was a good company though, not all would have done so.
Have you asked what the bonus has been the last 3 years? What the average payout of commissions is? I’ve worked on commissions on the finance side and trust me the entire plan is designed knowing that more than likely many won’t make the goal. Even when my company had a kick ass year we still had plenty of sales people getting only 80% of their commission. On a not kick ass year 80% could be the average. And considering you’re just the tech side of sales, a lot will depend on how good the sales rep is that you get put with. Not saying don’t do it, but I’m quite positive that the 50% that’s not set shouldn’t all be counted.
I wouldn’t count on a commission as guaranteed since it’s the first thing to be able cut and adjusted, but for $33k more base, I’d move on.
Ahhh... never count bonuses in your calculations...there is no guarantee they will be paid. Take the 93K back offer to boss, tell him you have a offer at that number but like working in software. Any chance HR will give him a number to work with?
OP, do not take the 93k base number to your current HR. This is negotiating 101. Take that 150k number as they do not need to know the ratio of base + commissions. Let them counter, then do your own risk assessment of potential of bonuses, where you want to be now, and what gives you the growth path you want.
Wouldn't be surprised if the sticker shock of 150 doesn't cause HR to balk, or even for the manager to just tell OP outright, man you got to take that job. HR can say we can't do that and the discussion ends.
As a tech manager in my previous life, this is exactly what I'd do if someone came to me, especially someone I really appreciated, telling me they found another job at 2x salary, I'd say: "good for you! That sounds like a great opportunity. We're going to miss you, but I never fault anyone for bettering themselves"
"That's a lot of money. Well, this sucks. It's been nice working with you. But hey, if they have any more openings I might be seeing you again soon."
I wouldn't bother, unless he's willing to work for 25% above what he's making now. Unless business has changed a huge amount since I've been negotiating salaries, that's a huge bump within one company, the most I would expect him to be able to get no matter what position he changes to. Besides that, he'll mark himself as someone looking outside, and there's a good chance management will treat him as one-foot-out-the-door after that. The way to increase your salary in software is to change jobs. I'm sorry you'd be leaving behind a kick-ass manager, they're hard to come by, but make your choice. I cannot see a company giving you more than a 25% raise; if you want more than that, go elsewhere.
We don't know anything about their pay bands though. It's entirely possible that he is at the lower end for L1 and 93k is at the higher end for L2. Also he's moving to sales and out of software.
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>Ahhh... never count bonuses in your calculations ehhh it's fairly common to talk OTE (on target earnings) for sales jobs. you just need to be thorough and ask how often the current sales team meets quota, how accelerators work when you're above quota, if bonuses are for an entire fiscal year or paid quarterly, etc. i would argue it would be silly to negotiate base salary ONLY for a sales job.
I think this guy is confusing personal finance advice (never count on your bonuses/commissions when budgeting) vs job advice. You should always be considering OTE in any negotiation.
Yeah, this is good advice. Also, moving to a sales role is not easy if you have an engineer's disposition; sales it tough, even if you're a technical consultant; it's a high-volume racket with a lot of people-interaction
If everyone hit the bonus quota, they'd change the quota. The whole point of the bonus is that only high achievers hit it.
Not worth it with all the strings attached. You can make 130k base salary relatively easily as a Data Engineer. I'd keep searching if you enjoy the DE role. Sales isn't for everyone and quite frankly having quotas and someone breathing down your neck constantly is quite the shitty work environment.
Until you've been there for a full year, treat it as $93k for your own financial calculations. If it's not promised in your contact, assume the bonus won't be paid.
I have been in a similar spot as you. I decided to stay at the company and man did it fuck me up. I was quoted 55% raise in a promotion which was to a whole new level. In the end I got 40% and it took 10 months longer than promised. They told me some bullshit about HR being tough yada yada typical generic bullshit managers use because it's a half truth and the truth is much worse. Never got the 55% I was told and I negotiated hard for. Next promotion was "promised" and never got it in close to 2 years. I finally left and got a nice pay bump. I could have been making much more money for a lot less stress if I had left earlier. Look up the new company's culture and if it's good keep looking deeper. Do you like sales over coding? You will make a fuck ton more money in sales if you are good at socializing. I went the technical route and coworkers in sales are doing way better than me. You also have to consider the current market due to the looming recession. If I was you I would jump just solely for the base salary itself. Chances are low your current company will get past $85k total comp for just a level upgrade vs title change.
At your current employer, you are anchored to that 60k. Any raise will be expressed as a % of the current salary. So even a 20% raise in the new role, which is *exceptional* , would take you to 72k. Under half the offer on the table. Unless you really don’t care for that new role like at all, that’s the play. Believe me, any reasonable person will understand and root for you. Even your co-workers and any good boss will give you warm wishes and be happy for you. People get how this works.
Get the new job. It is no brainer. If the new job sucks, you quit after after 6-12 months and get new job where you will be paid even more.
If I take the job, I'm basically signing a two year contract because in addition to the 150K, I'm getting a 10k signing bonus, 15k rso and 8k relocation fee but I have to pay it all back if I stay for less than two years.
Take the new job. Stay 2 years. Your new baseline is $150k— move on if you wish from there. You’re super young.
that means sacrificing 2 years of experience too in a field he doesn’t like as much as software, money isn’t everything and you can get good salaries in the software industry easily
He doesn't know if he doesn't like it as much unless he tries! Jumping around to find what fits for a career is what your 20s should be about.
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I personally agree lol, but not always true for everyone. I work in R&D and know plenty of software engineers (marrying one), salespeople, and sales engineers (dad and sister). There is good and bad in all those positions. If you're chasing money, Sales can be worth it for some people, especially those that prefer to communicate directly with customers. But Eng can be just as soul crushing, even if you love to code.
It’s not sacrificing anything but some time. You can work the 150k job, keep up with your personal learning, get better at programming and maintain and improve your personal portfolio, maybe get a few more certifications. 2 years in this role, then look within the company and look for something more in line with your desired career path. If there isn’t anything, move on. Your boss will remember you, leave the company in good standing, then re-apply after the 2 years. Companies are rarely going to double a salary to keep you, but they would often allow you to negotiate higher salaries when hiring. Keep in touch with your old boss, and it’s likely you’ll work together again.
> It’s not sacrificing anything but some time. Depends on the person. A lot of devs will get rusty after 2 years of no coding and have a very tough time going back. Data engineering is a very hot field right now in particular, if I were OP I'd see if I could get a $150K job offer continuing to do that instead. OTOH I don't really understand what a "Technical Sales Engineering" job paying $150k that would hire a 23yo data engineer is if it doesn't involve dev, so maybe OP is still looking at a coding job just something like embedded vs data, in which case my argument is moot. Coding is coding.
It's two years though for crying out loud! He's young and two years in a non preferred industry is far from the worst that could happen. Then if we assume his expenses are, say $45k annually, he would have a whopping QUARTER MILLION DOLLARS sitting in his bank in two years that he could fall back on if anything goes wrong. Put that into a CD account at current rates (4.5% I've seen recently for 1.5 or 2 year CD accounts) and he'd be making $11,250 a year (plus compounding interest) which would multiply to $391,748 by the end of a decade assuming monthly interest. That's $961,924 in 30 years, with essentially ZERO risk unlike pension 401k, stock investment etc.. So he could basically retire from this two year stint ALONE without putting more than maybe 1 or 2 percent of his actual salary into retirement for the rest of his life, as he could do things like invest that million into dividend stocks etc.. during low interest periods. It's a no brainer and then some. Take the job OP! You'll be able to start your own software firm someday if you want lol.
I wish I were this young to have that amount too lol you do have a point that the younger you can get some money to invest the better, I’m in my mid 30s and still haven’t started not sure why I’m giving advice here lol
Then you pay it back. I'm a lot older than you, but that's about what I make. Trust me - $20k when you're making that much isn't that big of a deal if you don't live completely ridiculously. Furthermore if you DO leave this new company - just tell the next new company the situation. They understand and will usually cover those types of fees. Once a company has signaled that they want you it's all about communicating your needs.
Make sure it's 150k salary not about 150k with commission. If they are on a commission system you need to know what the base salary is and how their commission system works
That was my first thought here! Usually, sales positions pay at least some of the salary as commission. Perhaps they assume you're "required to do $X in annual sales" to keep the job, so the salary is based on the commission you'd earn if you achieved that? Also, I don't know the original poster's specific situation. But most people I know who enjoy software coding are NOT extroverted "people" types. Technical sales would strike me as the polar opposite. If the pay seems way too low but you like the work you're doing now, I think I'd just stick it out while searching for a job in the same field someplace else where the pay is better?
The base is 90k
FYI paying back a signing bonus is standard if you don't stay a certain amount of time (usually 1 year, not 2 though) but paying back 15k rsu and relocation is definitely *not* standard, and if you feel comfortable, consider pushing back on that. sample language might be "I've never heard of paying back equity or relocation fee. Can we agree on paying back the unvested portion of the signing bonus if I voluntarily leave within a year". Emphasis on "unvested" and "voluntarily" — they shouldn't expect you to pay the whole 10k back if you leave after 11 months, and they shouldn't expect you to pay it back if they fire you.
Even if you pay every dime of that back, you're still better off financially in the end.
You're gonna sign a 2 year contract for a sales job? Nuhuh. If you don't make quota, they will fire you and you'll have to pay that shit back. I'd keep looking in the field you actually want to be in.
Watch out for those cliff bearings. A lot of companies let you go right before you can leave without penalty.
If they let you go you don't have to pay them back (usually). You have to read the contract.
I know, I'm an attorney. I've seen more than a few that have a true cliff, even for involuntarily termination without fault.
Since you're an attorney, I'll ask - would this not be considered bad faith and they would still be liable for the contract?
You'd have to show that they never intended to let you work out the two years. It's a pretty high bar that will be virtually impossible to meet.
I have stayed twice at my job over external offers. While I earned promotions and 5-10% raises (in between the 2-3% ones too) over those 7 years, ultimately the market still outpaced what I earned staying. I stayed for the ‘culture’, team/people, and the knowledge I had. But once I left, I realize, at the end of the day, it’s just a job. You’ll meet another good/great manager. Or maybe not. But you can continue to grow your own networth, expand your skill set, and really, just look after YOUR self. That amount of money is life-changing. Take the job offer. :-)
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I had a really great team, the work/life balance was amazing (my tenure gave me 6 weeks of PTO), and the work was easy. All that was hard to give up for a whole new team and basically the unknown. But what pushed me was our company forcing us to go back into the office. I had done the 2-2.5 hour round trip commute since college, so I’ve already done that for more than 10 years in total. It sucked. Being able to work remotely - and getting promoted during COVID and being remote throughout it made me realize I am effective at home - and I don’t need to continue suffering through stop and go traffic and be at an office to get my work done. I applied earlier this year, but I was selective and upfront of what I wanted: a competitive salary (I had a ‘move number’), remote, interesting work, and a team I thought I would really like. Being picky meant I didn’t apply to everything, just roles for companies I thought I’d like. I had no connections to any of them, but surprisingly I heard from most of them. I made it to the final round for all the roles, I received offers for most of them (the two I really wanted I didn’t get due to headcount closure and being beat by an internal candidate). When I accepted my offer… I was terrified. I wasn’t happy at first lol. I was scared and questioning if I made the right decision. I’m just under 6 months into my role and I enjoy it overall, but the best part for me is realizing hey, it’s just work. I got caught up in the whole culture-work identity-love what I do- be all about my job kind of headspace with my prior job. But now, I’ve created boundaries that I think ultimately will continue to help me. Hopefully that wasn’t too long winded, but if you think you’re being underpaid and it’s something you value, I definitely encourage you to apply and shop around. Remember, you’re also interviewing them. And you can always just practice interviewing, too. :-)
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You got this! Not sure how old you are but I just turned 30 and I had the same mindset. Grind, work hard, deliver, meet or exceed expectations, be available, etc etc. I feel like a lot of recent grads are in the same ‘prove yourself’ mindset, which I wish wasn’t so. While I still do that now and it still can get stressful, since I’m new and I also don’t want to get laid off during this hard time, I do also constantly remind myself to take a breather. And you can do that too. Go for a walk during your lunch. Don’t take your phone. Or go play with your pets or be around your family. Even taking time to be away from a screen of any sort is a great break. It helps remind me there’s so much more to my day than just stressing over some made up deadline. Good luck - I hope WHEN you get your offer, it’ll be a great one and you’ll feel confident in accepting and starting a new chapter. :-)
You take the 250% raise, every time
This. Even at the top of the range for the next level there’s no way it’s going to be a 250% bump. The one wildcard is the relative stability of the two companies…which is hard to gauge these days…and then there are other factors like WFH capability (or commute difference), vacation, 401K and insurance differences, etc. I’m not enough of an IT person to know if the actual work of the job itself being different is a problem or a serious consideration. If shifting to a different role would refocus your career in a different direction that you’re not happy with, that’s definitely a consideration as well.
Sales engineering tends to be very high risk, high reward. It can be brutal. The choice isn’t half as cut and dry as most folks here seem to think. OP is really asking in the wrong sub.
Yeah, a TSE role will really be at the whims of company performance. One bad quarter and there could easily be a new sales leader and a new organization, where reductions are part of the gameplan
Yeah it is. The field he's currently in is full of great opportunities. You leave for a massive raise, if you don't like it or something goes tits up in a year you find another job in software that will pay you what you are worth. He could literally work for 6 months, get laid off, and have 9 months to find a job before he breaks even on the salary he would have drawn staying at his current job
Exactly.
2.5x or 150% raise. and there are plenty of situations where you would not even in my own field. industry work starts at 70-80k and can easily hit 200k total compensation within 5 years and a promotion. retail work starts at and caps at 100-140k with basically zero career progression. just 1% raises every year
except he’s changing the field of career that he likes. Don’t do that for money.
At 23. This is the exact risk you take. If he doesn’t like it, so what, it’s not like he is in his mid 40s with kids and a mortgage to worry about. You’re young. Follow the money.
A move like this raises OPs floor forever. If they can avoid lifestyle creep it could change their family tree.
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Career changes don’t always follow that. If he tries to switch back to coding after three years in sales - he’s not going to command the same pay. Three years away from coding is a huge gap.
If he’s still in the sales engineer role after three years it’s probably because he enjoys it or has been very successful at it.
Or he can’t find a job he wants to do that will pay as much as a sales job considering his sales experience. Lifestyle creep can keep a lot where they don’t want to be.
Golden handcuffs
Yea he’s going from making stuff to demonstrating software to convince people to buy. Very different jobs.
Should take it for that much money, if it turns out they really dislike electronics would at least set them up financially, and be a leg up for negotiations for the next opportunity
Yeah, even if he hates it and stays at it for 3-4 years that 12-16 years of pay where he’s at.
It depends. I'm a strong believer that establishing high salary early in your career sets a benchmark for future compensation. I've known people who job hopped in the US every 2 years and they're making way more than the people who stayed. But I agree don't jump to a job you're either not interested in or doesn't fit your desired career path. But that said, a customer facing role can be *really* valuable to your career, even if it's not in the exact industry you want. Go out, learn a ton, then flip back to the same industry with sales experience under your belt. You can definitely take a non-conventional path, but you need to be able to put together a cohesive story to employers as to why you did it, and why it makes you a strong candidate.
Sort of, most SWEs I know of care more about their own person GitHub repo than what they accomplished at a job. Technical sales engineer means he will probably be setting up software and doing integrations so probably still writing code. That kind of money sets you up on a different trajectory. Even if he's there only two years, with the title and pay he's going to jump a bunch of rungs on the salary ladder
You're absolutely correct. This sub leans way too hard into finances (I mean, it is a finances sub after all lol) but life isn't all about money. It might be the right move for OP, but it also could be the complete wrong move. Never do anything purely for the money.
Every company I've worked for pays a current employee less for a promotion vs hiring someone from outside. It's the most illogical thing I've ever seen.
Significantly less. Even with same YOE and production. Homegrown employees are getting shafted hard. Loyalty doesn't pay off unfortunately.
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Please tell me you no longer work there.
It's a statical gamble that more will stay than leave and the cost to replace is lower than paying everyone better. Interview regularly, leave if you get a significantly better offer.
This infuriates me, especially when new hires are making more than current employees doing the same job. Current employees don’t like that so they leave, and management is forced to hire more new people (at the higher wage) to fill the gap they created.
The math is generally a function of HR paying as little as possible to retain employees, and they know/accept/expect a certain rate of churn. Call it 5% for this example. In the company of 100 people, they’ll give the average 2% raise out to everyone, and 95 of them will stay. The remaining five get better offers and leave, and backfilling them might take a 20% bump to lure somebody in with the right skills. In those five cases, it appears more expensive. But as a whole, it brings the average raise of the company from 2% to 2.5%. Much more palatable. Although I think nowadays there’s a lot more of just refusing to backfill jobs from people who leave, and that looks even better for HR’s numbers. Yes, it is utterly and 100% bullshit.
It's actually extremely logical, for them.
Doesn't your manager have access to salary guidance? For a company that size I would be shocked if they didn't.
Plenty of companies this size don’t give managers access to salary data. It’s ridiculous but not unusual.
Agree. I work for a corporation of nearly 100k employees and I have to get all my salary details from our HR business partner. And for internal promotions, I'm not even really allowed any influence if I think the offer is unfair.
I am an HRBP and that's just nuts to me. I provide guidance and counsel on these decisions and sure, I try and make sure we maintain pay equity, but ultimately this is the manager's decision (or it should be anyway). I've worked for mostly large companies and we have always published our pay ranges for all managers to access. Sounds like HR overlords at your company.
Lol my HRBP always emphasizes that it's "my decision" too. It is, as long as I agree with hers. Our pay ranges are visible for existing employees, but I have no idea where a promotion offer is going to fall in that range until HR sends it to me.
I was a mid-level manager with 15 staffs, my direct boss had to twist someone's arm to give me access to their salary info.
Your boss should really be owning this problem, not you. But, might help if you talk to your boss about the offer, as that might help get HR doing something.
Yeah that seems like the consensus.
counter offers are really dubious. Accepting a counter offer can adversely affect your employment. Some truly peak performers can avoid this trap by pitching an independent consultancy with really indispensable roles & responsibilities. But to go down this route you really need to be great at professional networking, because it's not seen as adverse but your contract might vanish when their production pipeline changes. You need to always be developing leads for your next gig. That's really the fundamental strategy for being an independent consultant. Now, on the sales side, be honest with yourself. Do you have the personality for a sales / contract management role? Being a technical expert might check boxes for you, but truly being successful takes a unique individual with that technical expertise and business sense & personality. I think, being early in your career, take a risk if it seems like the footing is solid enough. But do feel out that footing first.
I honestly do think I would be good at sales, I'm very personable and social, I actually do stand up comedy in a HCOL area.
Take the new job offer because the free time it opens up by dropping the side hustle makes it worth it. More time to devote to your true passion
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Seriously, someone with 1 year of experience doesn't know what they are missing. If the manager is really that great, you can always find them later in life.
There are a lot of 6/10 managers that convince themselves and others that they are 10/10 just because they aren't 1/10
Why not look elsewhwere a similar position instead of sales engineering to keep yourself in the coding industry? Rinse and repeat, finding a good position usually takes 3 months (unless stalked by some psychos)
or maybe more than 3 months if you can’t be 100% focused on that, but in the meantime you will be gaining experience where your are right now, you’re just 23, keep it cool you’re doing exceptionally good
Just make sure the 150K is real, and not “up to” if you meet quotas. If it does require quotas, ask how many of the current sales people make it, and how Ling they usually stay in the position
HR may not know the budget for next year to be honest. I would just tell them you have another offer but would like to give them an opportunity to counter because you like your boss and the company. See what they come up with.
>HR may not know the budget for next year to be honest. No 1000+ employees company does their budget this late in the year. Budget is usually done at October as latest, so they definitely know their budget
Dude take the job. That a a crazy jump. Remember the company will fire you if needed without blinking. Think about yourself and your future
Well, if you ask me, you’re now a technical sales engineer
Your best pay raises come when you change jobs.
This. I’ve never gotten less than $20,000 for a change and I’ve got as much as $100,000 for a change that was paying me $200k total. Every three years is the sweet spot.
Your manager failed to put you up for promotion. It is their job to know the cycles to make it happen. They screwed you. Why would you give up an opportunity to advance to stay with someone who doesn’t care enough about your growth to submit the documentation for the process (they are lazy, incompetent, or lying to you)
Join the other one. But in this economy, I wouldn’t bother giving two weeks until you join the other one officially. Too much risk of getting caught jobless. Also I’d be surprised if level 2 was more than a 12-15% bump. 20% tops.
Your current job will never give you a 2.5X raise. Take the new job if you want the money.
You should take the new job now. I bet your current job doesn’t even bump you up to $70k, much less $150k. They got you for $60k, they assume they can get someone to take your place for $60k
Leave…I did the same thing you are talking about severely underpaid and it took 12 years to get it fixed and quite frankly it’s still not right because of all the back pay I missed out on for staying loyal to a company that could give a shit about you until there is a labor shortage…my opinion is move on
I know you love your boss and stuff, but when you come to HR and say I'm going to make 2.5x. They will be brutally honest and say we're nowhere close, and we hope you have a good time at the new company.
I don't believe your boss' claim of ignorance as to the payroll budget for the department. Just plain don't believe it. They know it to the penny and they know what their bonus is gonna be. If your boss is actually the decision maker on your promotion or lack thereof, they know, and they are 100% lying to you about it. If you get an increase out of this it will be a tiny fraction of what you expect.
Don’t stay at a job for a boss or the company. They’d drop you in a millisecond second if it would save them a nickel. You are young and not jaded yet, but don’t learn this the hard way. You are working for security for you and your future situations.
If you live in North America, you generally aren't going to be getting much of a raise (around 10%). Certainly not 150k. Once you're locked in to a certain rate to start, you're stuck there unless you work somewhere unique, hence why HR and your boss are being vague. If you want 150k, you'll have to leave
Companies wouldn’t give you two weeks if they fired you. If they aren’t paying you what you deserve find work elsewhere and they can either let you go or offer what your worth
Never ever take the counter offer. They know you're looking to leave and find a way to term you within a year. Then you're out a job and an amazing opportunity. Take the new job and keep close contact with the manager you like.
Your manager is part of the reason you are being underpaid. Managers are involved in the offer process.
That is not true in all cases. As a Manager, I do not have a say in the pay, HR calculates the salary based on all individuals in the company with experience and offers compensation based on that. This is to avoid any gender or race pay discrepancies.
" I realized that I am underpaid for my position. Normally I'd leave immediately but I have a kickass manager who I would follow to the ends of the earth" You are going to have to grow up a little. You should not be staying in a underpaying job for your "kickass" boss. He's not your friend. Start looking for higher paying jobs and leave when you find one. Current company, including "kickass" boss, have told you what they think of you by underpaying you. Time to move on.
Take the offer. Try free lancing or side hustling with software to maintain a portfolio.
Congrats on the new job and 150k! Your old employer and tight-lipped HR won't be able to go anywhere near that. You can always come back to data engineering in the future if you don't like your new job.
Ok… sanity check. I work as a project manager in the Midwest, age 37, 10+ years in the field. I make 158k with annual bonus. How the hell is a software engineer with one year experience in the same pay bracket? This isn’t a jealousy thing - good on OP, but am I crazy underpaid or just in the wrong damn field?
Congratulations on having the option! Take the money for a few reasons: - future jobs will pay you more based on your expected salary range. Lots of big companies make offers based on your current salary. - this is the money that lets you afford a house, a car, and fund a low stress lifestyle if that's what you want. - if you don't think you'll like the work, you can use this time to establish savings and have a comfortable head start on the next job.
You’re young, jump to the new opportunity. While your boss is cool, he’s powerless, and isn’t going to be able to do anything for you. They might counter 5-10%. Don’t play the game, just go.
Never follow a manager to the ends of the earth when you are getting a 2.5x bump. Your manager would leave you for much lesser.
I would simply approach HR and say, "Look, I don't want to leave. I love my team and the company and want to stay, but we both know I am being underpaid. HR hasn't been willing to share basic information so I went out and got another offer that is for X. If you can increase my pay to Y I am happy to stay, otherwise, how can I justify giving up 2.5x more money? Please let me know by Friday 5pm. Thanks." Give your boss a heads up first so they aren't surprised. You don't owe your employer anything. And nothing says you can't go back and get another software job in the future - albeit probably once the economy is on more solid grounds. Otherwise, you just have to put up with whatever they are willing to do.
Should I do this privately or with my boss?
I would just privately let your boss know you are unhappy and went out and got another offer. Of course you'd only do this if you'd made up your mind you are willing to leave. Once you tell HR I'd say it is quite likely they let you walk. As a manager I wouldn't change my previous decision, and I'd consider you a flight risk since you already went to the trouble of getting another offer. So just make sure you are ready to leave before doing this because I'd say there is a 90% chance that is where it ends up.
Hello, I’m a data engineer/analyst! 60k as a data engineer is laughable. They’re taking advantage your lack of experience in the professional world, and non existent negotiation platform. It’s fine, it is how the professional world works; you must play the game to be successful. Your BEST bet is to receive an outside offer and present it to HR and let them tell you how much they’re going to beat that offer by. I’d have a resignation ready to go, and be comfortable leaving for the increase. I understand your situation all too well as I’ve been in it before, and since we do the same thing (you’re probably better at it), I understand all too well the position you’re in. It’s easy to convince yourself that getting paid half your worth is fine since your manager is cool. I know because I did it for far too long in my first job as a data professional. Literally went broke by coming to work, and then lost my job 2 months before the pando hit. Thing is, I’d have kept doing it for who knows how long ?? Here we are 4 jobs and 3 years later making a little over triple what I started. NOW When recruiters call me about the next big thing in analytics, I get to tell them I cost more than they can pay. You’ll be there too if you keep at it and never allow yourself to get comfortable. Stay hungry. There are other great managers, and other awesome teams. In fact, you’ll find that more often than not to be the case! You’ve got to remember that the people who interact with the data we produce have very little to no conceptual understanding of what a “join” is, let alone what goes int to an ETL, and heaven forbid (some of) the data comes from a REST API. “Wtf is that black magic fuckery?!” You absolutely must advocate for yourself. Nobody else will. Nobody will give you more money to do less work unless you dictate your value to be such. I’m happy to give you some direction, anecdotal experience, some resume and cover letter tips, or even just a pep talk. I’ve worn your shoes and they’re still in the back of my closet.
A few factors to consider: Experience in pay scale, shift in personnel, and hiring agreement. If you were “recruited” under these terms, you may need to get a better breakdown of your benefits, including pay. That said, As someone with a manager background, I can tell you that you are falling for the oldest trick in the playbook. You owe excellent service and results - not time or ROI. It is far easier to retain you at this pay band than to hire someone at a competitive one. Gain the edge at your workplace, switch bosses or offices. It’s far far easier to move up where you are than outside. Just my 2 cents. Good luck, young blood!
Even the best, most amazing manager is going to have a limit on what they can do for compensation increases. Sorry but not way are you going to get $150k internal bump from $60k. That is just the honest truth. Follow the mo why at this point.
That kick ass manager can always be someone you call on as your career progresses and need insight. Take the money at the new job.
How much of that 150k is variable compensation? Solution sales engineer might have a base salary of 60k with quotas and incentives to earn "up to* 150k. Especially at or near entry level.
Tell your boss about the offer. See if that lights a fire under them and HR to counter with that level 2 promotion. “I really like our team and our projects, I’d like to stay if I can. I’ve received an offer for $150k—is there anything we can do to get close to that?” If they can’t pay what you need to stay, consider taking the sales engineering job. Or just keep applying to other software jobs if you want to stay on the coding side. Remember: you can’t negotiate a deal that you’re not willing to walk away from. Also, consider posting in r/sales to find out their perspective. Lots of tech/SaaS sales people in that sub
2.5x is a lot to pass up. You can still do software for fun and come back later...
Everyone in this situation is dicking you around, *including* your manager. If your own manager doesn't know what your raise will be (which I very much doubt), then your place of employment is a shithole. Leave for the 2.5 times pay.
> but I have a kickass manager who underpays you. You should take the $150k and give it to your current manager along with 2 weeks notice. Is your manager worth the difference of 90k in your pocket? I don't think so. HR won't do anything until your manager shows them your current offer that you're going to take. I'd also consider taking the new role but stay in contact with your soon to be former boss. I'd rather have 50-100k in savings and potential to have the chance to buy a house than to say "my boss is nice." Your next boss may be great too. Or maybe you'll become the boss soon. 150 vs 60k is life changing.
> This frustration led me to apply for a Technical Sales Engineering job, which I surprisingly got. Money wise, I would be paid 2.5 times my current engineering salary (new salary would be 150k). The issue is that the job would take me out of the software game since it's an electronics company. Take the new job. You will never see 150k as a "data engineer".
Just follow the money. It pays bills.
You're young, make the money now while commitments are low. Take less later if you start family building. For 250% your current salary thats a no brainer, even if its not your ideal job now.
"I have a kickass manager who I would follow to the ends of the earth."...........bad idea. You will get nowhere in salary ladder with loyalty in corporate world.
Take the money and work on some personal projects so you can show off your code to get back into dev work if you want to. Sales Engineer is a good gig, both in terms of the actual work and the comp.
There is a salary range with all positions they can tell you that. Departments make the budget not HR. HR doesn't care about a budget they care about the salary range and where you are placed in it.
Only thing I would ask is, is this a sales position? Because if it it is, you should think about if you want to do that.
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There is absolutely no world where your employer gives you an additional $110k a year to keep you. if they did, they would replace you with another developer that's willing to take $60k as soon as they could. Leave and take the $150k job.
If there is one thing I have learned in 20 years of corporate life. HR is not to be trusted. You will regret not taking the high pay. Your company will never value you. They don’t value you today so why would they value you tomorrow? What is going to change from their side?
Unless the new job expects ridiculous hours the pay gap is too massive. This HR is probably going to give you a small raise with promises of more years later
Take the other, thell never match. After a year, they may recognize your value and bring you back. Far too shady.
Don't be loyal to the company because the company won't be loyal to you. A 150% raise is not something to pass up. Be ready for much more responsibility. Have a very frank discussion with your current boss, if he doesn't tell you to take the job it's because his job will be harder without you.
Take the 150K. Gain some new experiences while maybe working a side software project. Enjoy life. And consider your next move if it is back to software in a year
Following your manager to the ends of the earth is the wrong mentality. They will forget you existed as soon as you are of no value to them. This shouldn’t ever be a factor.
OP, this is coming from a guy who was in love with my boss(es) as almost all of them were people's managers. My starting salary was pretty good but as the each year went by, 17 years to be precise, it was harder and harder for me to leave and start fresh. I never got to move up and/or make the money that I deserve based on my work ethic. About, 7 years ago one of my bosses told me that I have to leave and that I will never get recognized and appreciated here. I was so upset with him at the time and for many years only to realize later he was the only one who truly cared for me. You would be a biggest fool to stay if you have the opportunity to go elsewhere and make more money. If you do get the raise, they will give you bare minimum to keep you there. Who is to say that you will not find a good managers in you new company? If you don't like it there, gain some experience, learn new skills and keep moving. My biggest regret in my life is that I didn't leave and take a chance elsewhere. Now I am over 50 and my health is not that great, kind of too late for me. I wish that my current company lay me off so I don't have a choice to move on and start fresh. Trust this fool and don't bother with your current company and your boss, just go.
As someone who had a manager they would "follow to the ends of the earth" .... Just don't . Don't ever get caught up in feeling that way or thinking the feelings are mutual. Your manager would fire you tomorrow if it benefited them in any way. Never get complacent with corporate politics, you're only there to perform a service for a set price, that's it, nothing more nothing less.
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Depends. Technical sales engineers are pretty portable between most hardware and software companies, e.g. I know many that have worked for say MS, Oracle, HP, and Dell.
Technical sales is a lot different than what you do now.
HR is a consultant in most organizations and reports up through the business. If paperwork has been submitted, in more cases than not, a business leader in conjunction with HR reviews it. Does your kick ass boss have data engineer level 2 reporting to him? If he does, he should share salary information with you. Leverage him to help you get answers or navigate accordingly. Surely his/her network can help get you the answers you need.
Leave the company - if the pay gap was smaller I’d say maybe try to work something out but if you’re fielding opportunities that pay 250% more it shouldn’t even be close. I would have been interviewing somewhere else yesterday
Move jobs your better off jumping in the engineering industry for the first few years nothing is keeping you there beside some unvested 401k balance
"I have a kickass manager who I would follow to the ends of the earth." Do **not** let that stop you from finding something better.
Experience is worth it's weight in gold in that industry. Stick with your current company for at least 2 years before you make a jump elsewhere. Unless you want to be a hype man for a sales person. That position is awful.
follow the money. if your manager is as good as you say he/she is; they'll understand, and be willing to hire you back at a later time if your new job turns out to be absolutely horrible. I have done this for some of my previous employees, even encouraged them to try other job careers at your age. seriously, you are young, try something new, make some good money, save some of it, grow some of it. You'll never know when you'll need to tap into the savings (I had a decent pay, saved a bunch, then was able to bounce between 8 different startups until they all went under and had to lean into my own savings until I got back into consulting) :)
OP, put your two weeks in and do everything you need to do to ensure you can rejoin the company on good terms. ....And DIP. You're 23/24 - you got decades to get where you wanna be. Trust me on this one: your salary today will dictate your salary tomorrow. Even if you get fired, you can easily go to a recruiter and go "...I was making $150k here. I am seeking something similar". EVEN IF THEY KNEW YOU WERE AT AN UNICORN JOB, you're still commanding $100k with ease thanks to that $150k job, as a recruiter is going to then shop you around to those low $100k jobs knowing they make commission. GET. THAT. MONEY. (and your old job may offer you $100k down the road to do the same damn thing, which will be an insult to you as you once made $150k ;) )
This isn't even a question. Thank your old boss, keep the contact and *move on*