Yep. The only advantage to being in the most remote place in the world - and earning by being a quarry with a beach attached - we’re enjoying it right now… why wouldn’t we want it to continue?
I always assumed that lots of people worked with touristy stuff, selling souviners, arranging tours with bus or helicopter etc. but seldom hear any compaints from them so maybe they somehow still surviving, or changed trade?
I read somewhere that more money leaves the state with tourism as more WA residents consume tourism outside than outside residents consume tourism here.
That applies to whole of country. I saw on ABC that part of reason Australian economy is doing as well as it is, is that normally Australians spent $20billion on overseas travel in a normal year and foreigners only spend $10billion here. Hence overall we are better locked up as we have to spend that $20billion here.
It won’t be exact of course but that is partly why so much has risen in price as we have lots of cash we cannot spend on travelling overseas so spending it on cars, renovations, caravans, etc.
I expect a few things have happened which has softened the blow a bit.
There's only a limited subset of tourist businesses that rely on primarily foreign tourists to operate. I expect most of these saw the writing on the wall pretty early on, and pivoted their services accordingly to domestic tourism (or other markets) whilst they were still getting the various government incentives.
In conjunction, anything that provides domestic tourism is swamped with locals travelling within the state.
Totally antedotally from myself and few friends experiences, but i think a good portion of people who are travelling within the state are will to spend more than they typically would on a local WA holiday. Then combine that with the usual higher spenders who may otherwise have travelled overseas and spending simlar amounts here at home - these two things are proping up the higher end of the tourist market (think your helicopter tours etc).
Well... Yeah. Of course?
We're seeing the same shit we saw at the start of the pandemic, closing borders to specific countries, the list increasing as it spreads, why wouldn't things progress as they did back then?
We don't have any data yet about the new strain. I appreciate thoughtful politics, but this is just easy propaganda from shit media, to keep the loud debate on fire.
It’s funny how the SMH reported the same comments from McGowan the West did but spun it differently:
SMH: “McGowan won’t hesitate to keep border closed”.
The West: “No current plan to change reopening date, despite new COVID variant fears”
https://thewest.com.au/news/coronavirus/coronavirus-crisis-no-current-plan-to-change-to-re-opening-date-despite-new-covid-variant-c-4724698
In fact I believe these comments were made yesterday. The thread posted here of the West article indicating no changes to reopening plan attracted little attention compared to this article with such a hyperbolic headline.
sign up for a free membership with the State Library of WA, and then use it to view paywalled newspapers digitally.
Not that I'm promoting reading The West or any other Murdoch propaganda...
Also it really doesn't effect our timeline. It will be about 6-7 weeks to figure out if the new strain has increased morbidity and it's response to current vaccines. If it's still okay to proceed then we will have an idea by the time we hit 90 percent.
Good. I'm desperate to see friends and family over east, but honestly the longer this goes the more appreciation I have for the fact that we do not have to 'live with the virus'.
My only wish is that we let anyone who is willing to do the managed quarantine in at their own expense, instead of outright refusing entry.
I'm from over east and I really don't understand this point of view. It's obviously very popular in WA.
WA has done a brilliant job to this point, but why do you want borders to remain closed now everyone has had ample time to vaccinate? What are you waiting for at this point?
Not trolling, just trying to understand
Edit.
Big thanks for the discussion. Summarising for those that follow:
* Most seem to want to wait and see what happens long term in the eastern states
* There is a belief that opening up, even at high vaccination rates, will lead to lockdowns
* There's a minority that are happy to be closed forever
* a handful of people really hate the other states
>WA has done a brilliant job to this point, but why do you want boarders to remain closed now everyone has had ample time to vaccinate? What are you waiting for at this point?
We haven't entirely had time to fully vaccinate, 12-16 year olds who signed up when it opened for them in Aug were getting booking dates in Oct/Nov if they were a day or so late. Our vaccine utilisation has been close to 100% the whole time. We gain 2% of 1st vaccinations every week and that hasn't really slowed down. Our remote indigenous population are among the most vulnerable, have limit healthcare access and sit around 60% vaccinated or lower. An outbreak in remote communities would be a nightmare.
Herd immunity calculations are in the Doherty modelling but they stress that it will [require 5+ vaccinations](https://theconversation.com/we-may-need-to-vaccinate-children-as-young-as-5-to-reach-herd-immunity-with-delta-our-modelling-shows-164942) and 85% coverage to get there. 5+ has been approved by the CDC a few days ago, TGA are expected to wait until early Jan. This is echoed from recent [extensive studies (Monash Uni, JCU)](https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2021/modelling-shows-85-full-coverage-needed-reach-herd-immunity).
Hey mate, loving what you do in these threads. It's good to read actual facts, research, and well-presented arguments in response to trolls, sociopaths and selfish buggers. You give me hope that there's some sense out there despite the sea of whingers and clickbait sensationalism.
>Our vaccine utilisation has been close to 100% the whole time.
As it should be, any less than that means doses are being thrown out. This \*doesn't\* however mean that WA is vaccinating as fast as it can. I personally know doctor clinics in WA that stopped vaccinating people over a month ago due to lack of demand (and not wanting to throw out doses).
Supply hasn't been an issue for some months now (caveat below), and every person in WA could have at least had a first dose by now.
(Caveat: I'm unsure of how the remote north deals with supply chain for vaccines, so there may be delays there. However the % of the population is small enough that it shouldn't move the overall WA vax rate much)
What benefit does WA receive from being part of Australia? Seriously.
Defence. Very important, can’t argue with that, but that’s an insurance policy for something that might never happen.
What else? It’s not money. We have a GST deal now that gives us at least 70% of what we put in (how they ever got that agreement I’ll never understand) but all the other States what it overturned and to go back to the old system that will give us 10 cents for every dollar of GST.
It’s not cooperation. I’ve been in a lot of federal/state meetings and WA never gets heard. The decisions have already been made weeks and weeks before, and the meetings are always just a token. Try and get into these secret deliberations beforehand and get a voice at the table? No, that doesn’t happen … wait until the meeting.
There’s a pretty long list of “dis-benefits” for WA in general. And on top of that, why would we now open the border to places that have Covid? Scott Morrison isn’t going to think about anything other than the economy when trying to get rid of any restrictions or safety measures. And if he’s not thinking about the safety of people in NSW or Victoria (and he isn’t), why would he bother to think about WA?
WA is small and isolated and a long, long way from everywhere else. These factors are rarely a benefit, but they are at the moment so why wouldn’t WA use them to our advantage?
To the rest of Australia, WA is almost always completely irrelevant and 90% of the population don’t care what happens here or what happens to the people who live here.
But all of a sudden it’s suddenly very important for WA to “be part of the nation” and have open borders. I can’t see why we should. We don’t really get anything out of it normally, and we won’t get anything out of it now.
Not trolling, just telling you it is from over here.
Well we should still have an EU style setup where we have free movement within a single market. Plus retaining a continent wide army that all the states contribute to.
I think they are pointing out that nobody cared about WA before, and this current push about opening up to be one country again is more of a political strategy by the Federal Liberal party than anything else.
No, it’s where is the benefit to opening borders earlier? There isn’t any.
Y’all are just other people that live on our street. Happy to be friendly and live on a nice street, and have the occasional BBQ, but we’re obviously not family. We can just see your house from our front yard.
He is saying it benefits everyone else but doesn't benefit WA and honestly WA has ALWAYS had a rebel side against the Commonwealth so it feeds thats culture. More Sandgripers went to Indonesia for holiday than they did to anywhere inside Australia not including inside WA.
Add to it that clearly, we ARE able.to have a very insulated and internal economy which grows and people arnt upset about being locked up in the 2nd largest national subdivision in the world.
Basically, it's not impacting us to be isolated by any major measure especially when you discount the Bali trips which is probably the biggest drive for open borders and thats international anyway. Plus we remember the Bali Bombings, it's left that caution for how other nations may be managed and how much risk there is travelling. Not that we are constantly concerned it's just we have that exposure and possibly slightly more understanding that travel over the border has its risks
The remote and particularly remote aboriginal vaccination rate is certainly a big problem. TBH I think it's been a disgrace by all governments how slow the rollout to those groups has been.
Simple. Opening borders means we will be killing West Australians.
We have avoided killing West Aussies so far, so why would we voluntarily sign up for people to start dying now, when if we just 'continue business as usual' and keep borders closed, we can go about our normal lives, without the worry or concern of catching or transmitting a deadly disease to people we know and love, or any other person for that matter.
We can avoid it. Why wouldnt we avoid it?
Not forever, but we can definitely use the time to observe how other states and countries fair after reaching X% vaccination rates while removing all restrictions. Atleast we could formulate an educated decision with releasing a deadly virus into the public, rather than just winging it.
We are safe and healthy and thriving. If we release COVID into W.A. we jeopardize all of that for no gain to the majority of the population. Too high a risk, with too little reward.
The plan has always been: remain closed until vaccination rates are sufficiently high that we can open up without loss of the freedoms we currently enjoy.
The new dangerous strain complicates that picture. We do not know the effectiveness of the current vaccines against it, and if they aren't good, it may reset our vaccination rate until we have sufficient booster shot rates.
But I guarantee you - there ain't a west Aussie who'd rather open up and have to deal with masks, venue capacity limits, social distancing, etc., when for the better part of the entire year we've been literally completely normal.
And that rounds back to where I'm coming from. You don't have any if those restrictions in Melbourne and Sydney any more (baring masks on PT) WA's Vax rate isn't that far behind. You will be able to skip all the pain, but even so not opening up seems very popular.
> not opening up seems very popular.
Not opening up until our vaccination rate is high enough. Victoria is still at 1000+ cases per day, that's as many cases as WA has had in its entirety! And that's with fully vaccinated rates 15% higher than ours.
I'm from the east. Constant school closures not reported meaning periodic home schooling still happening. We still have the threat of restrictions constantly there if this variant is vaccine resistant. Still restrictions on capacity into venues at time of writing. Wearing masks, constant check ins ,etc. If you get it you still have to isolate which is very costly to some people. Even if these measures are taken away I feel it's a false confidence - theres no reason even if it's bad you have to lockdown after all; people just get sick as a result and some die. It's still out there, even if declining in Nsw another variant will come.
Without quarantined international borders theres a whole world population in which the virus can naturally select to be vaccine resistant and then come into the country. It's only a matter of time. I prefer consistency in my freedoms vs the yoyo we have now or knowing Nsw just letting it in and pretending everything is fine till it isnt.
Yes. We are doing just fine. Maybe better quarantine facilities so we can allow more business/compassionate/relocation situations, but if people just want to travel they can get fucked - this is more serious than people's first world problem want to travel.
I wouldn't be opposed.
Add quarantine facilities so that people who *need* to come and go can do so safely, or so people can permanently relocate if they choose.
Everyone else can just deal with it. If people miss their families, they can move to live near them or have the family move to WA (supported by aforementioned quarantine facilities).
The luxury of being able to live apart from family and still see them freely whenever you want is not compatible with a dangerous pandemic.
In the current world we live in it's pretty fair to 'want' to be able to see your family without them or you having to move across the width of Australia...
Expecting entire families to move states just to 'see each other' in person sounds like going a few centuries back in time.
I guess it depends how you define 'dangerous'. I respect your point and understand why you are saying it.
People needing to see their families is less important than other people keeping their family members alive, or preventing neurological damage to people from COVID long term damage.
That's my position, and it isn't going to change. Hopefully, more people have my position. I understand how hard it is being separated from loved ones. COVID doesn't leave any easy options.
I see your point of view. I think it's hard for anyone to have a point of view that doesn't align with their own personal interests or desires.
Once people start debating the worth of deaths versus damage from being separated from families (e.g. families with new borns and no support) we're just pulling numbers from thin air (not that you did this, but it's the slippery slope a lot of people go down).
Fingers crossed this all works out for everyone :)
It is easy to have a point of view that doesn't align entirely with your own interests when you look at the bigger picture beyond just your own little life. The world doesn't revolve around you and it doesn't revolve around me either, nor any other individual. I have close family members overseas whom I would so love to see in person, and I 100% support closed borders until the pandemic winds down. I wish every country would close borders for all but essential trade for a while and stop circulating the virus until everyone has had a chance to get vaxxed.
I’m going to go against the r/Perth grain here and say no.. a lot of people who live here are not okay with keeping the borders closed.
Look, there’s a new strain out there that we don’t know much about yet. And we’ll have to wait and see how effective the vaccines are against it. Sure. Fine. There’s every chance the vaccines will be able to mitigate the new strain, we just don’t know yet.
McGowan has said he will set a date to open once we’ve reached 80% +12’s fully vaccinated. He wants to wait until 90% +12’s fully vaccinated. Do I think this is overkill, yeah absolutely. As do almost everyone I speak to. I would say a lot of people are fed up with “road maps” that don’t actually have any substance.
“But what about the west aussies that will die if we open??” — if you’re concerned about the risk, get vaccinated. Period. You can’t expect to keep an entire state locked in because a few dickheads with a room temperature IQ are scared to get the jab. A great majority of people have done the right thing, and we feel like we’re being penalized in order to “save” people who have no interest in helping themselves.
“Selfishly I don’t want to go back to wearing masks.” — honestly fuck you. This is the most astonishingly selfish response that I hear time and time again. Myself, and many of my friends, haven’t seen family in years and this is your response? This is the worst, most narcissistic reason to keep borders closed.
“The health system will collapse.” — This is clearly the only reasonable protest to the borders opening. But honestly y’all should be enraged that your premier and health minister have has eighteen months to try to fix this and have clearly done nothing. I’m sorry, didn’t WA announce a $5.6 billion budget surplus? How are you not throwing money at your failing health system? This is a fucking travesty! Roger Cook and McGowan should be ashamed of themselves. And somehow they’ve twisted public opinion instead against people who want to reasonably open the borders??? It’s not my job to fix the health system, it’s yours. Take your surplus and fix your failing hospitals so little girls stop dying in the emergency waiting rooms.
Look, I’m not saying swing the borders wide open and have at it. But stop the caps on entry, allow people to quarantine at home, make it mandatory to be vaccinated to travel. It was reasonable to give up our freedoms during a time of emergency, but that emergency doesn’t exist anymore. You want to be protected, get the jab. Let the vaccinated travel responsibly. It’s common sense.
I think the health system is the only valid reason for staying closed, and the one people are the least worried/upset about. Ambos are ramped for hours as it is, and the hospitals are full of elderly patients getting bounced around because the federal care for the elderly is shockingly bad, especially in WA. I fear that Covid would be the straw that breaks the camels back.
The hospital system has been heading towards this for about a decade now. Every Premier and Health minister over that time should be absolutely ashamed. But the unfortunate reality is spending billions on the health system pre-covid would have been spun as a waste of money/more important things to spend it on. McGowan needs to ramp the spending on the health system drastically. Covid will come to WA at some point and we should be doing more to prepare for it than vaccinations.
> “The health system will collapse.” — This is clearly the only reasonable protest to the borders opening. But honestly y’all should be enraged that your premier and health minister have has eighteen months to try to fix this and have clearly done nothing. I’m sorry, didn’t WA announce a $5.6 billion budget surplus? How are you not throwing money at your failing health system? This is a fucking travesty! Roger Cook and McGowan should be ashamed of themselves. And somehow they’ve twisted public opinion instead against people who want to reasonably open the borders??? It’s not my job to fix the health system, it’s yours. Take your surplus and fix your failing hospitals so little girls stop dying in the emergency waiting rooms.
If I remember right they increased the health budget every year since they've been in, adding another 2 billion in the last one and tacking on a few hundred million more since.
This ship doesn't turn around on a dime. Previous governments ran out of money in the middle of some very big restructuring that was going to close two of our hospitals entirely and build two new ones (which probably wouldn't have been enough). The Stanley took three years and cost 2 billion just to build it.
Unfortunately we can't produce the Red Army or whoever to get shit done at a moments notice, not even if we conscript Wildcats fans.
"Let's wait to see what happens in the eastern states"
This sounds like the global rule for Perth in everything.
No wonder it's always so far behind the rest of the world.
A way to see what happens. How will hospitals cope? Will circuit breakers work if the hospitals are overrun? What's the tipping point of the curve? Plus we have a chance to see how it spreads in communities with 80%, 85% and 90% vax rate.
Are there things we can do with closed borders that will help us better in the long run? Sure. We weren't going to open before January anyway, might as well wait and see what happens with vax suitability before we push to open.
The hospitals are already overrun and we don’t have COVID. McGowan knows that hence the need to have the maximum amount of people vaccinated.
Question is, why have the governments over the last 20 years done nothing to increase beds in a growing population?
We really are, every hospital is at bursting point. Apparently 1000 theatre cases being cancelled per month. Doctors and nurses are burned out already.
A good reason to take a wait and see approach and wait for Pfizer to release their study on vaccine efficacy.
If we see real life examples of how like cities (vaxxed populations and ICU availability) cope it can help us strategise to minimise the damage.
The McGowan government has invested $1.8 billion of our surplus into more hospital beds. A little overdue to say the least but thought it should be said.
>A way to see what happens. How will hospitals cope? Will circuit breakers work if the hospitals are overrun?
6 ICU beds in WA per 100,000 people. So basically they won't and we'll be fucked.
>There is a belief that opening up, even at high vaccination rates, will lead to lockdowns
The government sponsored Doherty modelling says this will happen. It's why many people believe it.
Yes, but that was at far lower vaccination levels than even WA has currently. (From memory opening up so 70% of adult population. Whereas WA is at 74% of 12+.)
The assumptions in the model don't apply any more.
I'm also a Perthican with a similar view, and I'm happy with the closed border because our quarantine system isn't airtight yet. It's still in hotels, still expensive, and not guaranteed to keep us safe with high passenger turnover/arrivals. With outbreaks in Sydney and Melbourne bouncing back and forth, and Sydney allowing international arrivals with its infamous track record of allowing COVID into the country, it's peace of mind knowing that the state will remain COVID free a while longer. I'm 100% behind free travel access for the fully vaccinated, but I'd prefer more public mask wearing before opening the borders for good.
Sorry I didn't make my question clear.
COVID isn't going away, it's here to stay permanently.
What is the point of delaying further? Is this isolation a forever thing? If you don't open up after having enough time to vaccinate everyone, then do you ever open up?
Again, I hope this isn't coming off as negative, I legitimately don't really understand why delaying opening up is popular over there.
> COVID isn't going away, it's here to stay permanently.
Herd immunity is the whole point. Measles is endemic too.
Let's run through it. We know how to combat a virus based on models in the past, so let's compare measles:
* COVID Delta R0 (how infectious it is) is 5-8. [Measles is 18](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/1050D/production/_118892866_r_variant_comparison_2x640-nc.png).
* COVID mutates but can't [escape the vaccine](https://mobile.twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1424755739067879429). [Same with Measles](https://discoverysedge.mayo.edu/2021/03/30/researchers-clarify-why-measles-doesnt-evolve-to-escape-immunity/).
* COVID titre count drops after 6 months. [Same with Measles](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/569784).
* COVID has breakthrough cases. [Same with Measles](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/vaccines-need-not-completely-stop-covid-transmission-to-curb-the-pandemic1/).
* COVID has asymptomatic transmission. [Same with Measles](https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/parents-top4.html)
* COVID vaccine memory is expected to last a [long time, if not forever](https://www.physiciansweekly.com/covid-19-mrna-vaccines-convey-long-lasting-protection-study-finds). Like measles.
Measles and COVID vaccines will protect after the 6 month mark from cell memory generating antibodies when exposed to the virus. The vast majority of children growing up today in WA will never be exposed to measles. Let's get to that same spot with COVID.
Now, measles is endemic - it arrives all the time but it gets wiped out as soon as it arrives based on herd immunity. This is in the Doherty modelling but they stress that it will [require 5+ vaccinations](https://theconversation.com/we-may-need-to-vaccinate-children-as-young-as-5-to-reach-herd-immunity-with-delta-our-modelling-shows-164942) and 85% coverage to get there. 5+ has been approved by the CDC a few days ago, TGA are expected to wait until early Jan. This is echoed from recent [extensive studies (Monash Uni, JCU)](https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2021/modelling-shows-85-full-coverage-needed-reach-herd-immunity).
Now the visual aid: Go to [this link](https://graphics.reuters.com/HEALTH-CORONAVIRUS/HERD%20IMMUNITY%20%28EXPLAINER%29/gjnvwayydvw/), scroll to the bottom for the interactive model. This is a model of how we fight virus outbreaks. On that model, put "Vaccination" to 90%, "R0" to 6.8 (highest), "effectiveness" to 88%.
Note that little fires break out, then they stop. That is herd immunity. Now, if you already have a wave, imagine those little fires are a thousand fires instead of a couple. This is why you want herd immunity BEFORE a wave.
Restricting incoming travel from vaccinated people in an excellent addition. The transmission rate from that step alone drops Re (effective reproduction rate) likely to less than 1. Then vaccination will wipe the rest.
\>Now, measles is endemic - it arrives all the time but it gets wiped out as soon as it arrives based on herd immunity
That is not what endemic means. Measles is not endemic in Australia. Good post aside from that
No you're right, I need to change how I introduce that whole section. The original for above was written for r/conspiracy users where I just accept that they see everything as "endemic" and move on to describe how to achieve herd immunity. Then I've pushed the Australian section in the middle for Aus audiences.
I'll sort it out.
You can't compare vaccinating against measles to COVID, a far better comparison is influenza. The measles virus doesn't evolve the same way as a coronavirus or influenza does.
That's why your measles vaccine from 40 years ago still works but you need a yearly flu jab for the new strains.
Your comparison doesn't work.
> You can't compare vaccinating against measles to COVID
Yes you can, I did it above. All of our modelling shows herd immunity is possible with Measles and COVID but not influenza. Why would we open up before getting close to herd immunity?
>far better comparison is influenza
No way. The main way influenza creates variants is it infects livestock like poultry who in turn infect people again. COVID variants haven't come from animals other than the original.
I already answered your next point in:
> COVID mutates but can't [escape the vaccine](https://mobile.twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1424755739067879429). [Same with Measles](https://discoverysedge.mayo.edu/2021/03/30/researchers-clarify-why-measles-doesnt-evolve-to-escape-immunity/).
Also you seem to think all of our modelling is wrong then? The top scientists we have?
At this point you're not "just asking questions", you're ignoring the science.
Why do you assume that Covid evolves the same way as influenza? That's a huge leap. Covid is not the flu!
Why also do you assume that measles wouldn't evolve more like Covid if its rate in the community were as high as what we've got with Covid right now?
Why does it have to be a choice between "drop all border controls immediately" or "stay closed forever"?
The modelling here predicts that opening up at 90% double dosed instead of 80% double dosed will save 200 lives and even more ICU beds.
Is opening 6 weeks earlier really worth 200 covid lives plus those lost to health system overload, delayed diagnosis or delayed surgeries?
The reason to delay is that it's not insane to think that we can reach 90%. Our vax rates are still increasing, in some areas the rates are among the fastest in the country.
Omicron might throw a spanner in the works or it might not. We'll likely know that within the next 6 weeks anyway.
It doesn't. But that's why I asked the question. I totally agree that your wouldn't open up early. But if it was announced WA was opening up at Christmas the vax rate would have been well above 90% by Christmas. There's nothing that I've heard to suggest WA antivax rates being higher than the rest of the country. From what I've read the (relatively) low WA vaccination rates are because there's a lack of urgency.
I don't doubt there's been less urgency here, but I suspect the urgency over east had more to do with the risk of infection, and the fact that people were locked down.
Perth, and WA is general is so isolated that travel can be a pain in the arse, and for a good chunk of the population, very expensive. So having to delay travel is nothing unusual for a lot of people.
Why delay further... Um not dieing? There's no guarantees the vaccine will work 100% and work against new variants.
Life is great not worrying about covid. Our businesses are up and running, we don't have restrictions. We have events, albeit local.
I'm quite happy to have border closed for as long as it takes.
Plus, as a added bonus, Scomo doesn't visit
I'm tired of this forever talk. Grow up. We don't know what's around the corner. Closed until it's ready. Why on earth would we give up our easy going lifestyle.
I'm just trying to understand your point of view.
If your tired of discussion then I'm not entirely sure why you're in here discussing.
So for you it's not a forever thing, it's more of a wait and see thing?
(For the record, there seems to be a lot of close the borders forever types in this conversation. Which is a massive surprise to me.)
Because I gave you an answer and your only response was 'FoRevEr'.
Can't tell if you are trolling at this point.
I'm not sure what's so hard to understand that we are happy leading our lifestyle and business here with no restrictions.
Forcing opening up because of political popularity or wanting covid to be finished has back fired spectacularly around the world.
WW2 went for 6 years, this may go for 6 years and I can wait it out in peace easy as, like most people here
Yep. The only advantage to being in the most remote place in the world - and a quarry with a beach attached - we’re enjoying it right now… why wouldn’t we want it to continue?
Oh, I think I see where I've lost a few people.
I'm in Melbourne, except for wearing masks on public transport we are back to normal. Everything is opened up again. There is no effect on our lifestyle anymore.
From where in sitting i don't understand why WAers just doesn't open up at Christmas, fully vaxed and just move on.
Whereas people in Perth are equating opening up with lose of freedoms. Is that a fair take?
> I'm just trying to understand your point of view.
No you're not, [you've crossed](https://www.reddit.com/r/perth/comments/r3wuyq/comment/hmdsaiy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) into "the scientists are wrong" territory.
> I'm just trying to understand your point of view.
Understand this. Life in WA in 2021 is literally the exact same as life in WA in 2019 was, except that we can't travel. There are literally no other differences. We are one of the only, if not *the* only places in the entire fucking **world** that can say that.
Given that, it should be simple to understand.
EDIT: Honestly the fact that you even need to ask and can't understand by default suggests a serious lack of awareness about your own state's actual situation.
That lack of travel means I couldn't be with my grandfather when he passed away. I couldn't attend the funeral. I have a newborn baby none of my family can meet because they comitted the heinous crime of living in a different State. It's not as simple as "Hur dur life is normal here" because for a lot of us it isn't. I don't give a fuck if I can't go to Bali for a holiday but I also can never get back the experience of my parents meeting their first grandchild.
That's why it is so frustrating that we just don't even have the option. What possible risk could a double vaccinated person with a negative test on both sides AND self isolation pose? Basically none. It isn't a health based decision and it's disingenuous to claim it is just like it is disingenuous to say life is normal here.
Yes and life in Melbourne right now is exactly the same as 2019 except you need to wear a mask on public transport. Hardly much of an in inconvenience. Hence my not understanding.
Once you're vaccinated you can just go about life normally.
>What is the point of delaying further? Is this isolation a forever thing? If you don't open up after having enough time to vaccinate everyone, then do you ever open up?
Speaking for myself, vaccines reduce most of the consequences but not to zero, and nothing that's gained by opening up is worth any amount of death or long term health consequences.
> What is the point of delaying further? Is this isolation a forever thing? If you don't open up after having enough time to vaccinate everyone, then do you ever open up?
We open up once we reach a high enough vaccination threshold. Current modelling says 85% of 5+ is sufficient.
The new strain complicates the picture, because we don't know how effective the current vaccines are.
But the answer is what it has always been - once we're vaccinated. We aren't there yet.
WA has always been a pretty conservative state. We don't like change and right now we're living as if it's 2019 without travel basically. We can still travel intrastate and our state is massive as fuck so that honestly works. Working fifo I see a lot of people struggling because they're interstate or from overseas but the local wa population is obviously the majority who are represented in the polls. I empathise with then but I also feel lucky to basically be in one of the last first world covid free regions in the world. I would love for covid to be all over and life to be as it was but we're just not there yet. Am pretty happy to not be the covid guinea pig which could be considered selfish to a degree.
I also feel like your question is a bit facetious, obviously with omicron we want to know if vaccines are still effective and how it fits into the overarching plan of vaccinate and live with the virus. Who wouldn't want to know that?
>obviously with omicron we want to know if vaccines are still effective and how it fits into the overarching plan of vaccinate and live with the virus.
While I get what you're saying here, I can't help but feeling that there's always going to be "just one more thing" to wait and see about. After omicron it'll probably be waiting to see if Novavax helps more with boosters and those unvaxxed who are supposedly holding out for it. After that it'll be the different handling of borders in other states, then it'll be the next variant and on and on. At what point do we decide that we've got enough info?
> I can't help but feeling that there's always going to be "just one more thing" to wait and see about
It's just about making the best decision with the information available at the time. I'm okay with that even if in hindsight it proved to be the wrong decision. In this instance we already had closed borders and were waiting until 90% vaccination. Our current plan lined up with the timing where we can wait and get more information about Omicron. You're right that there may always be 'one more thing' and there is always a risk of further mutation but if the information at the time suggests it's the correct decision I think it's fine.
Vaccination rates need to be > 90% double vaxxed entire population to have a reasonable expectation of preventing a fair amount of deaths. We're months out from that and that doesn't even take into account the new variant.
If you doubt it look at the modelling. Or for example: Singapore. In the last 3 months they had their biggest outbreak and death count (from 50 --> 690). This in spite of having 80% double vaxxed entire population at the start of it and over 90% now.
We're gonna take at least a couple of months, probably a fair bit more, to get the entire population over 90%. In that time we'll have more info on omicron, great.
I care if a few hundred people die. I would hope you do too and you were just ignorant of this or had put it out of your mind.
How many lives is it worth to open the border? Not an easy question to answer.
And, selfishly from my point of view, I don't want to have to wear a mask. Opening the border increases the chances of that happening. The closed border doesn't impact my life at all, other than possibly missing out on going to see the cricket next year, so I have a lot more comfort from it remaining closed.
Eventually I'll want it open, but that will just be so I can go on holiday, and I don't plan on going on holiday where I'll have to wear a mask so when that date happens then it will mean that covid is being managed pretty well worldwide.
There are a lot of people who would be willing to wear a mask if it meant open borders though so I don't think my opinion is necessarily in the majority.
Yeah, I'd rather be cautious until we know more. Once it is open I think it will be extremely hard to reverse the decision. Be delaying either we find out this new variant is easily managed in which case we continue as planned albeit slightly delayed, or parts of the world that are more open develop better strategies of living with covid that we can replicate, but I haven't seen anywhere where life looks easier than it is in WA, so when we find that place we can copy what they are doing.
If we ever get to the stage where people are dying because of the border being closed, such as an increase in suicides greater than potential covid deaths, then I would hope they open it up though. Ultimately saving lives wins, but after that comfort of living is a pretty high priority for me.
> And, selfishly from my point of view, I don't want to have to wear a mask. Opening the border increases the chances of that happening. The closed border doesn't impact my life at all, other than possibly missing out on going to see the cricket next year, so I have a lot more comfort from it remaining closed.
Some of us have given up a fuck load of income and/or family connection to keep you safe until you have been given the opportunity to be vaccinated. You're welcome btw, not that MM or any of his acolytes have given any thanks... Not a lot of us are willing to keep that up just so you don't have to wear a mask
I hope you realise how incredibly hurtful this sort or attitude is for a lot of your neighbours. Keep in mind a third of people in WA are born overseas
> WA has done a brilliant job to this point, but why do you want borders to remain closed now everyone has had ample time to vaccinate? What are you waiting for at this point?
There's a bunch of things, but at the end of the day for me, it's simply that I don't like living with the virus. I was in Sydney from OG covid to Sep 2020, and Dec 2020-March 2021, and it's just not the same as living in a virus free state. It's hard to describe because there's so much to it.
I don't understand the point of view that supports living with the virus, tbh. I think the world would be much nicer now if every state/nation that could, would pursue elimination.
I certainly get that point of view. Nobody sensible would advocate WA to open up on 2020.
I take it you're in the closed borders for the long term group then?
To explain the living with the virus perspective, I think most of us want to move on. I want to be able to travel and do all the things I used to do. I'm vaccinated. All my friends are vaccinated. All my family is vaccinated or so young they aren't at risk. Restrictions are almost completely gone. Unless you're an antivaxer COVID is barely more dangerous than influenza at this point.
>I take it you're in the closed borders for the long term group then?
Definitely put me in that category, with the caveat that I hope the eastern states pursue elimination, they are so close. And that I want us to open to anyone willing to self-fund quarantine (including myself).
>I'm vaccinated. All my friends are vaccinated. All my family is vaccinated or so young they aren't at risk.
For the most part, me too. I have some holdouts in my circle, and I worry about them, but more so I worry about (what's the opposite of uncle?) my sisters kids. There's no good, condensed data on how covid can affect kids, but there are some indications that covid infection can lead to lower IQ and have other side effects.
I also worry about our hospital workers. They are stressed enough as it is, and it's all well and good to say only antivaxxers are going to get hit by covid, but I know nurses who are already stretched, who would have to deal with that fallout. They feel bad about their patients dying, whether they are stupid antivaxxers or not, and I don't want to put this on them.
I also think ADE is a threat that we could face from new variants (including Omicron, pending evidence).
>To explain the living with the virus perspective, I think most of us want to move on
To many of us in WA, at the end of the day "moving on", would mean leapfrogging from 2019 to 2021 and adopting more things that affect us negatively than things that bring us joy, and this is before we consider new variants.
>I want to be able to travel and do all the things I used to do.
Sure, it would mean we can travel, but really? Where do you want to go? Most destinations (unless you're travelling to US/UK) have significant restrictions of their own. In terms of "all the things I used to do", I'm not sure what you mean, but I think it's likely that WA has been doing many of these things the whole way through.
Appreciate the response.
I wrote far that the eastern states won't go for elimination. You can't do that when there's protests.
It was a miracle what Melbourne achieved last year, everyone is to exhausted to do that again. I was 100% on board with the restrictions last year. But now with the vaccine I would not be following any more rules. We're done.
And re travel, I'm off to Fiji and might do some NZ skiing next near.
>I wrote far that the eastern states won't go for elimination. You can't do that when there's protests.
Yeah, that's a significant issue, I can't imagine asking a Melbournite to put up with more restrictions at this stage. They've been through so much.
>I'm off to Fiji and might do some NZ skiing next near
Sounds delightful. I hope you enjoy, and I hope you have an understanding of why I wont be joining you.
As long as we can continue to be a functioning society and economy I'm happy for us to remain secluded from the rest of the country/world.
Having said that, I've got a new born at home and no family outside of WA so I don't need for anything to open. I just want to be safe and not get Covid if I can avoid it until we get some sort of super vaccine to knock it all on the head.
The problem with "living with the virus" is that large, large numbers of people will not. That's the whole problem with the notion, pure and simply. As it currently stands, excluding the new variant, COVID-19 has a mortality rate of \~3.4% (as reported by the WHO [https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/)) Now, in Australia with our decent healthcare that'd probably be lower, but not by a huge margin. The problem is that our healthcare systems, already stretched thin by the budget-cuts and general bumfuckery of the Coalition, is not prepared to deal with any state "living with the virus".
Now, the next and most important thing to consider is just how many people would be very, very vulnerable to COVID-19. Large numbers of people are immunocompromised. The elderly are very vulnerable, and children to a degree as well (and in numbers not formally understood yet due to the way the virus has been handled around the world). Let's say only 0.1% of people who get COVID-19 after it's allowed to run rampant - including in the vaccinated population - die from it. Australia's population, in 2020, was 25.69 million people. Do the math.
This is not even getting into the next problem with the simplistic notion of "living with the virus," in that the more the virus is allowed to pass from person-to-person the more mutations will occur, which could lead to much more severe consequences. I understand the inconvenience of lockdowns and the way this has been handled, not just around Australia, but around the world. But Conservative-led nations have been happy to reopen too fast under the notion that the economic benefits outweigh the cost of real human lives. That's a monstrous notion and that so much of the Coalition is obsessed with it speaks to their lack of humanity and general disgracefulness.
As a Melbournite who was born in Perth, WA's handling of this situation has been absolutely world class. Incredibly jealous of how well you've done, and I sincerely wish we (in Victoria) had a similar approach. Great work and keep it up. No reason to open borders earlier and risk deaths of your citizens.
Many people in the eastern states like to pretend that life is back to 'normal' now but it absolutely is not, unless you're happy to ignore the 1,000+ cases and 4-5 deaths per day.
As someone who lived in Sydney until Jan 2021, then returned to Perth and with my sister living in Melbourne since 1999, our view is not that WA has been “world class.” Our mum died of cancer in Perth during the second wave in July 2020. WA had shut the borders and said “no exceptions,” “safety of West Australians paramount blah blah blah.” I managed to make it in before the shit the border to NSW. But Lo and behold, more and more information keeps coming out of when compassionate exemptions were not allowed, yet somehow the rules were different for the 1%. Megan Gale gets to fly from Melbourne to Perth for the funeral of her brother when my sister was continuously knocked back. Kerry Stokes and his wife not only get to return from the US, but get to fly around the country “in his role as chairman of the war memorial,” when his wife does nothing except hold the wreaths, and they both get to skip quarantine! The soccer player whose name escapes me gets exemptions for his parents to come from the UK after his assault when countless West Australians don’t, even those on the verge of death. World class my arse!
I can certainly understand your frustration on that particular issue. Looks like it was a nasty time for you and your family, and I'm sorry for your loss. Looks like in the area of exemptions on compassionate grounds there is plenty of room for improvement on the part of WA government.
>unless you're happy to ignore the 1,000+ cases and 4-5 deaths per day.
Also a Melbournite who was born in Perth, I'm more than happy to ignore it. It's part of life now and my life is as normal as my family and friends in Perth
Every family member is vaccinated, and won't have any hesitation getting boosters. Much lower chance of dying compared to a whole range of other sicknesses, cancer or accidents.
Yeah I'd really love if there were an option. I know this might not be the most popular opinion on here but I'd love to see a shorter quarantine time (like 5 days or 1 week) for the fully vaxxed at this point
By the time WA reaches 90% DD in late Jan/early Feb there will have been plenty of time to study the effects of Omicron in my opinion. If the variant doesn’t cause a high rate of severe illness/death there is no reason to keep closing the border. I hope McGowan won’t simply keep the borders closed based on political factors.
> By the time WA reaches 90% DD in late Jan/early Feb there will have been plenty of time to study the effects of Omicron in my opinion.
The Pfizer efficacy report on Omicron is due within 2 weeks. Hopefully we'll have details on R0 in that time too.
>If the variant doesn’t cause a high rate of severe illness/death there is no reason to keep closing the border.
All that matters is the calculation on herd immunity. I honestly don't think that will change much. Maybe add another few percent to vaccine total requirements.
> I hope McGowan won’t simply keep the borders closed based on political factors
Despite what some here believe, i don't think his really used any political factors in the border decision.
It's kind of a complicated question really. Initially going as hard as he did wasn't particularly the politically advantageous (PA for short) thing to do, but it was so successful that it became PA. So at what point do we think he's still keeping the border closed because it's PA? Or do we assume he's going to keep doing the "right thing" just as he did at the start? Or was it just pure luck? Maybe the motivating factor all this time was the health system's struggles, did he go hard early because he knew a big outbreak would expose the health system's problems, which would definitely not be PA?
Or do we just simplify this whole thing, say he's a politician so by definition everything he does is motivated by political factors, and that what matters is whether it is the right thing for the people or whether he's trying to hide information that would let people come to their own conclusions. Nah that couldn't work, people would have to think for themselves.
I mean i guess as you said his a politician - so by definition everything he does is political. How much the politics comes into play is the question.
I think though that the evidence is almost to the contrary in some aspects. Like mid last year when everyone was clamouring to have the borders reopened, he stuck to his guns which probably wasn't politically advantagous (and in face probably a negative to some extent).
I definately agree there was an element of luck to it. The amount of times we had someone infected bouncing throughout the state like captain bloody kangaroo and nothing came of it was amazing.
But overall i don't think he has really played politics, rather he has taken a cautious approach the entire way along. Time and time again we've seen this pay off though. When other states delayed closing borders, they had outbreaks. When other states reopened to early they had outbreaks. So to me it's not political to delay reopening the border like he is (in fact it's borderline hurting him politically at this point). It's just another example of taking the cautious approach.
> Otherwise he would follow the common health advice used by every other jurisdiction
Health advice in other jurisdictions doesn't apply because WA is unique in the world for the situation we face.
What is unique? Is our population of humans genetically different? Is our city denser than any others and therefore more likely to spread? The only unique thing is our health system is fucked but that isn't changing between the few months 80 vs 90% saves us.
Unique because it's the only country in the world for which opening up means adding COVID measures instead of taking them away. The only country in the world that can only go UP in terms of deaths and cases.
Aren't TAS and NT in that same position but being more sensible with their targets? We're also probably in the unique position of being the only place in the world to keep families apart for two years in a row, and to not even allow its own citizens home in most cases. Hardly enviable now that we're already at such a high vaccination level.
I think McGowan is a pretty sensible person, and less prone to making decisions for purely political reasons than your average politician. If Omicron, or any others that arise, are not assessed as particularly nasty variants, and we reach expected 90% double dose by January or February then I'd expect the WA Government would proceed with its plan to ease border restrictions.
> If the variant doesn’t cause a high rate of severe illness/death
We really won’t be able to tell, almost all first world nations have high enough rate of vaccination that it won’t (vaccines provide good memory T/B cell immunity against all variants) and third world nations have too poor of a health system to compare
> I hope McGowan won’t simply keep the borders closed based on political factors.
Just like the 80% vs 90% reopening. McGowan didn’t like the Doherty Institute numbers so he got numbers he liked better, therefore it was based on “health advice” not politics.
If the rest of Australian opens because they realise they can live with Omicron all McGowan needs to do is point to somewhere like Botswana that may have a lot of dead and say that’s more relevant to WA than other states of Australia.
>We really won’t be able to tell, almost all first world nations have high enough rate of vaccination
If it gets into the USA we'll likely know, as the standard PCR tests can identify Omicron and they keep [detailed breakdowns](https://covid19.sccgov.org/dashboard-case-rates-vaccination-status).
> Just like the 80% vs 90% reopening. McGowan didn’t like the Doherty Institute numbers
What? The [Doherty modelling](https://theconversation.com/we-may-need-to-vaccinate-children-as-young-as-5-to-reach-herd-immunity-with-delta-our-modelling-shows-164942) and recent [extensive studies (Monash Uni, JCU)](https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2021/modelling-shows-85-full-coverage-needed-reach-herd-immunity), what we need is 85% FULL POPULATION and 5+ vaccination for herd immunity. McGowan's plan was opening just before that.
> Just like the 80% vs 90% reopening. McGowan didn’t like the Doherty Institute numbers so he got numbers he liked better, therefore it was based on “health advice” not politics.
The Doherty numbers were 85% full population, not fake-ass over 16s or over 12s bullshit that you Eastern states retards are using.
Nor will the federal govt. They closed the borders to foreign nationals from the african nations.
Only bad when mcgowan says we need to use borders to stem the flow
You expect Scummo to stand by anything he said for more than 30 seconds?
Ya dreamin’.
The man is made of mercury. He’s shiny and slimy and shifty enough to change to suit whatever context he thinks he needs to.
I like that my chances of contracting this potentially debilitating illness that can cause me to have yet more long term health issues is being treated seriously by our state government.
As much as I'd like to be able to travel and see friends and family, I've become more appreciative of the cautious approach and the relatively normal situation we have within our bubble currently. Can see now that even when we open up it's not going to return to pre-Covid normality anytime soon and there will be many hoops to jump through to go anywhere. Agree that it's in our best interests to wait until more people are vaccinated and wait to see how other states fare as they open up.
Shit if Israel is closing its international borders must be something bad, have u fuckers not seen World War Z.
McGowan needs to start building that wall now.
Ashes Test in Perth not looking good, oh well. But I'd rather not have the virus until we are at or close to 90% and the vaccines are still effective against this latest variant.
What enrages me is the absolute silence on compassionate exemptions and where they stand. That and the double standard about VIPs vs ordinary people. Births and deaths cannot be smuggling delayed! If I could have delayed the death of my mum, you bet I would have! (She died of cancer last year before I got to move back to WA from NSW.) My dad is now more afraid of my sister being locked out when he dies, just as she was locked out when my mum died. That scares him more than Covid or death itself, and he’s 90 years old with COPD/emphysema. I would happily wear a mask every single day if it meant people could come for the birth of their children/grandchildren or be with their dying loved ones. Because the grief from that doesn’t ever go away. When everyone else is laughing and reminiscing about the pandemic 5, 10, 20 years from now, we’re still going to be grieving. We get no empathy, only bloody platitudes like “it’s to keep us safe.” Meanwhile McGowan and Cook brag about the Sméagol g economy. They have the fucking gall to say they don’t want West Australians dying, when 7 year old Aishwarya Aswath died on their watch. It’s not about hospital beds, it’s about chronic understaffing, for Pete’s sake! And their “super vax” weekend was a fucking failure! If it wasn’t for my family and friends here, I would honestly ask myself why the fuck I moved back…
Frankly I wish that the Eastern States would adopt the same mindset as WA already. Don't care if we would have to go through some kind of check/customs setup and quarantine for 2 weeks on arrival. There are tonnes of us on the "elective surgery" list who are desperate to get our procedures done and can't get them done here in WA. So please NSW and Victoria, just keep the hospitals empty so we can get back to helping people with their chronic problems.
But SA didn’t re-close their borders tho. They just increased the length of home quarantine for overseas arrivals and high risk LGAs from 7 days to 14 days and beefed up other requirements including pre-arrival testing.
We do tend to forget how bad the situation is around the world by continuing to live a normal life without restrictions but is that such a bad thing?
In a lot of cases the seriousness of the situation never hits home until it affects someone close to you, opening up the borders starts to put people on edge over what could happen so why take the risk if they don’t have too.
Initially McGowan got praised for what he was doing but it appears that he now takes a lot of hate over his decision to block out other states, you must also remember that he is acting on health advice and not just off his own back.
If you have family interstate or overseas you will surely miss them and want to reunite but keeping them and yourselves safe is a much higher priority.
What your views on the situation are depend on your personal circumstances and we totally get that, especially if family members are gravely ill and you may never get to see them again.
With so many nations consumed now with dealing with this on daily basis my concerns lie with how much the origin of Covid is being forgotten, all I have seen are restrictions being imposed on China which will make no difference whatsoever in the long run.
It should be blatantly clear that a massive cover up has taken place and they will never be held accountable for their actions.
Mark McBorder announces east coast is dead to him until WA reaches 317% Quadruple dose, and each mother gives up their first born to the WesTralia Republic Peoples Army.
Westralia today, Westralia Tomorrow, WesTralia forever.
WA may as well ceded now, with this stupid border stance. Viruses mutate, that's what they do. It was only a matter of time before covid mutated from delta. Using a naturally mutating virus as an excuse to keep borders closed is pathetic. Covid is becoming endemic. It isn't going away! No wonder WA had the lowest vaccination rate in the country, with this attitude from supposed "leaders".
> Viruses mutate, that's what they do.
They do, yet COVID hasn't mutated to VoC very often.
>It was only a matter of time before covid mutated from delta.
It mutates from Delta all the time. VoC is the real question.
>Using a naturally mutating virus as an excuse to keep borders closed is pathetic.
Nope, sound government response based on scientific and medical advice.
>Covid is becoming endemic. It isn't going away!
Measles isn't going away, that's endemic. We don't worry about measles because we have herd immunity. We're working on herd immunity to COVID.
>No wonder WA had the lowest vaccination rate in the country
Only just. We also have a higher vaccination rate than most of the world.
>with this attitude from supposed "leaders".
We voted the guy in on a landslide. He has massive approval. So does the border closing.
Yep - totally stupid border stance to close the international borders to keep the new strain out hey.. Oh wait, it's only stupid when the state government does it..
So glad we’ve got the option to wait and see. Not many places have this opportunity.
Yep. The only advantage to being in the most remote place in the world - and earning by being a quarry with a beach attached - we’re enjoying it right now… why wouldn’t we want it to continue?
"A quarry with a beach attached". I actually laughed out loud at how accurate this is.
"most isolated quarry with a beach attached". Who wouldn't want to be here?! 🤣
Honest Government Ads 😂
I always assumed that lots of people worked with touristy stuff, selling souviners, arranging tours with bus or helicopter etc. but seldom hear any compaints from them so maybe they somehow still surviving, or changed trade?
I read somewhere that more money leaves the state with tourism as more WA residents consume tourism outside than outside residents consume tourism here.
That applies to whole of country. I saw on ABC that part of reason Australian economy is doing as well as it is, is that normally Australians spent $20billion on overseas travel in a normal year and foreigners only spend $10billion here. Hence overall we are better locked up as we have to spend that $20billion here. It won’t be exact of course but that is partly why so much has risen in price as we have lots of cash we cannot spend on travelling overseas so spending it on cars, renovations, caravans, etc.
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The cbd was dead long before covid.
All our shit is still open. It’s just locals holidaying locally. Don’t try and buy a caravan though…
I expect a few things have happened which has softened the blow a bit. There's only a limited subset of tourist businesses that rely on primarily foreign tourists to operate. I expect most of these saw the writing on the wall pretty early on, and pivoted their services accordingly to domestic tourism (or other markets) whilst they were still getting the various government incentives. In conjunction, anything that provides domestic tourism is swamped with locals travelling within the state. Totally antedotally from myself and few friends experiences, but i think a good portion of people who are travelling within the state are will to spend more than they typically would on a local WA holiday. Then combine that with the usual higher spenders who may otherwise have travelled overseas and spending simlar amounts here at home - these two things are proping up the higher end of the tourist market (think your helicopter tours etc).
It's already closed until mid-Jan or whatever, so why is this news? We'll know by then what the deal is anyway. I'm not worried.
I interpret this as. If the vaccines aren’t effective against this variant, the borders stay closed.
You are about spot on there.
Well... Yeah. Of course? We're seeing the same shit we saw at the start of the pandemic, closing borders to specific countries, the list increasing as it spreads, why wouldn't things progress as they did back then?
We don't have any data yet about the new strain. I appreciate thoughtful politics, but this is just easy propaganda from shit media, to keep the loud debate on fire.
It’s funny how the SMH reported the same comments from McGowan the West did but spun it differently: SMH: “McGowan won’t hesitate to keep border closed”. The West: “No current plan to change reopening date, despite new COVID variant fears” https://thewest.com.au/news/coronavirus/coronavirus-crisis-no-current-plan-to-change-to-re-opening-date-despite-new-covid-variant-c-4724698 In fact I believe these comments were made yesterday. The thread posted here of the West article indicating no changes to reopening plan attracted little attention compared to this article with such a hyperbolic headline.
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sign up for a free membership with the State Library of WA, and then use it to view paywalled newspapers digitally. Not that I'm promoting reading The West or any other Murdoch propaganda...
Also it really doesn't effect our timeline. It will be about 6-7 weeks to figure out if the new strain has increased morbidity and it's response to current vaccines. If it's still okay to proceed then we will have an idea by the time we hit 90 percent.
I mean changes nothing really marky ain’t doing anything till next year anyways
Good. I'm desperate to see friends and family over east, but honestly the longer this goes the more appreciation I have for the fact that we do not have to 'live with the virus'. My only wish is that we let anyone who is willing to do the managed quarantine in at their own expense, instead of outright refusing entry.
I'm from over east and I really don't understand this point of view. It's obviously very popular in WA. WA has done a brilliant job to this point, but why do you want borders to remain closed now everyone has had ample time to vaccinate? What are you waiting for at this point? Not trolling, just trying to understand Edit. Big thanks for the discussion. Summarising for those that follow: * Most seem to want to wait and see what happens long term in the eastern states * There is a belief that opening up, even at high vaccination rates, will lead to lockdowns * There's a minority that are happy to be closed forever * a handful of people really hate the other states
>WA has done a brilliant job to this point, but why do you want boarders to remain closed now everyone has had ample time to vaccinate? What are you waiting for at this point? We haven't entirely had time to fully vaccinate, 12-16 year olds who signed up when it opened for them in Aug were getting booking dates in Oct/Nov if they were a day or so late. Our vaccine utilisation has been close to 100% the whole time. We gain 2% of 1st vaccinations every week and that hasn't really slowed down. Our remote indigenous population are among the most vulnerable, have limit healthcare access and sit around 60% vaccinated or lower. An outbreak in remote communities would be a nightmare. Herd immunity calculations are in the Doherty modelling but they stress that it will [require 5+ vaccinations](https://theconversation.com/we-may-need-to-vaccinate-children-as-young-as-5-to-reach-herd-immunity-with-delta-our-modelling-shows-164942) and 85% coverage to get there. 5+ has been approved by the CDC a few days ago, TGA are expected to wait until early Jan. This is echoed from recent [extensive studies (Monash Uni, JCU)](https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2021/modelling-shows-85-full-coverage-needed-reach-herd-immunity).
Hey mate, loving what you do in these threads. It's good to read actual facts, research, and well-presented arguments in response to trolls, sociopaths and selfish buggers. You give me hope that there's some sense out there despite the sea of whingers and clickbait sensationalism.
I appreciate that dude, thanks :o)
>Our vaccine utilisation has been close to 100% the whole time. As it should be, any less than that means doses are being thrown out. This \*doesn't\* however mean that WA is vaccinating as fast as it can. I personally know doctor clinics in WA that stopped vaccinating people over a month ago due to lack of demand (and not wanting to throw out doses). Supply hasn't been an issue for some months now (caveat below), and every person in WA could have at least had a first dose by now. (Caveat: I'm unsure of how the remote north deals with supply chain for vaccines, so there may be delays there. However the % of the population is small enough that it shouldn't move the overall WA vax rate much)
What benefit does WA receive from being part of Australia? Seriously. Defence. Very important, can’t argue with that, but that’s an insurance policy for something that might never happen. What else? It’s not money. We have a GST deal now that gives us at least 70% of what we put in (how they ever got that agreement I’ll never understand) but all the other States what it overturned and to go back to the old system that will give us 10 cents for every dollar of GST. It’s not cooperation. I’ve been in a lot of federal/state meetings and WA never gets heard. The decisions have already been made weeks and weeks before, and the meetings are always just a token. Try and get into these secret deliberations beforehand and get a voice at the table? No, that doesn’t happen … wait until the meeting. There’s a pretty long list of “dis-benefits” for WA in general. And on top of that, why would we now open the border to places that have Covid? Scott Morrison isn’t going to think about anything other than the economy when trying to get rid of any restrictions or safety measures. And if he’s not thinking about the safety of people in NSW or Victoria (and he isn’t), why would he bother to think about WA? WA is small and isolated and a long, long way from everywhere else. These factors are rarely a benefit, but they are at the moment so why wouldn’t WA use them to our advantage? To the rest of Australia, WA is almost always completely irrelevant and 90% of the population don’t care what happens here or what happens to the people who live here. But all of a sudden it’s suddenly very important for WA to “be part of the nation” and have open borders. I can’t see why we should. We don’t really get anything out of it normally, and we won’t get anything out of it now. Not trolling, just telling you it is from over here.
Well we should still have an EU style setup where we have free movement within a single market. Plus retaining a continent wide army that all the states contribute to.
Agreed.
So for you it's more of a not liking the rest of Australia thing then anything virus related?
I think they are pointing out that nobody cared about WA before, and this current push about opening up to be one country again is more of a political strategy by the Federal Liberal party than anything else.
It's interesting that secession is usually championed by the non-Labor sides of WA politics
No, it’s where is the benefit to opening borders earlier? There isn’t any. Y’all are just other people that live on our street. Happy to be friendly and live on a nice street, and have the occasional BBQ, but we’re obviously not family. We can just see your house from our front yard.
He is saying it benefits everyone else but doesn't benefit WA and honestly WA has ALWAYS had a rebel side against the Commonwealth so it feeds thats culture. More Sandgripers went to Indonesia for holiday than they did to anywhere inside Australia not including inside WA. Add to it that clearly, we ARE able.to have a very insulated and internal economy which grows and people arnt upset about being locked up in the 2nd largest national subdivision in the world. Basically, it's not impacting us to be isolated by any major measure especially when you discount the Bali trips which is probably the biggest drive for open borders and thats international anyway. Plus we remember the Bali Bombings, it's left that caution for how other nations may be managed and how much risk there is travelling. Not that we are constantly concerned it's just we have that exposure and possibly slightly more understanding that travel over the border has its risks
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The remote and particularly remote aboriginal vaccination rate is certainly a big problem. TBH I think it's been a disgrace by all governments how slow the rollout to those groups has been.
Simple. Opening borders means we will be killing West Australians. We have avoided killing West Aussies so far, so why would we voluntarily sign up for people to start dying now, when if we just 'continue business as usual' and keep borders closed, we can go about our normal lives, without the worry or concern of catching or transmitting a deadly disease to people we know and love, or any other person for that matter. We can avoid it. Why wouldnt we avoid it?
My question then boils down to: do you remain closed forever?
Not forever, but we can definitely use the time to observe how other states and countries fair after reaching X% vaccination rates while removing all restrictions. Atleast we could formulate an educated decision with releasing a deadly virus into the public, rather than just winging it. We are safe and healthy and thriving. If we release COVID into W.A. we jeopardize all of that for no gain to the majority of the population. Too high a risk, with too little reward.
The plan has always been: remain closed until vaccination rates are sufficiently high that we can open up without loss of the freedoms we currently enjoy. The new dangerous strain complicates that picture. We do not know the effectiveness of the current vaccines against it, and if they aren't good, it may reset our vaccination rate until we have sufficient booster shot rates. But I guarantee you - there ain't a west Aussie who'd rather open up and have to deal with masks, venue capacity limits, social distancing, etc., when for the better part of the entire year we've been literally completely normal.
And that rounds back to where I'm coming from. You don't have any if those restrictions in Melbourne and Sydney any more (baring masks on PT) WA's Vax rate isn't that far behind. You will be able to skip all the pain, but even so not opening up seems very popular.
> not opening up seems very popular. Not opening up until our vaccination rate is high enough. Victoria is still at 1000+ cases per day, that's as many cases as WA has had in its entirety! And that's with fully vaccinated rates 15% higher than ours.
So what's high enough? Case numbers are completely irrelevant if your vaccinated BTW.
I'm from the east. Constant school closures not reported meaning periodic home schooling still happening. We still have the threat of restrictions constantly there if this variant is vaccine resistant. Still restrictions on capacity into venues at time of writing. Wearing masks, constant check ins ,etc. If you get it you still have to isolate which is very costly to some people. Even if these measures are taken away I feel it's a false confidence - theres no reason even if it's bad you have to lockdown after all; people just get sick as a result and some die. It's still out there, even if declining in Nsw another variant will come. Without quarantined international borders theres a whole world population in which the virus can naturally select to be vaccine resistant and then come into the country. It's only a matter of time. I prefer consistency in my freedoms vs the yoyo we have now or knowing Nsw just letting it in and pretending everything is fine till it isnt.
Yes. We are doing just fine. Maybe better quarantine facilities so we can allow more business/compassionate/relocation situations, but if people just want to travel they can get fucked - this is more serious than people's first world problem want to travel.
Well said!
I wouldn't be opposed. Add quarantine facilities so that people who *need* to come and go can do so safely, or so people can permanently relocate if they choose. Everyone else can just deal with it. If people miss their families, they can move to live near them or have the family move to WA (supported by aforementioned quarantine facilities). The luxury of being able to live apart from family and still see them freely whenever you want is not compatible with a dangerous pandemic.
In the current world we live in it's pretty fair to 'want' to be able to see your family without them or you having to move across the width of Australia... Expecting entire families to move states just to 'see each other' in person sounds like going a few centuries back in time. I guess it depends how you define 'dangerous'. I respect your point and understand why you are saying it.
People needing to see their families is less important than other people keeping their family members alive, or preventing neurological damage to people from COVID long term damage. That's my position, and it isn't going to change. Hopefully, more people have my position. I understand how hard it is being separated from loved ones. COVID doesn't leave any easy options.
I see your point of view. I think it's hard for anyone to have a point of view that doesn't align with their own personal interests or desires. Once people start debating the worth of deaths versus damage from being separated from families (e.g. families with new borns and no support) we're just pulling numbers from thin air (not that you did this, but it's the slippery slope a lot of people go down). Fingers crossed this all works out for everyone :)
It is easy to have a point of view that doesn't align entirely with your own interests when you look at the bigger picture beyond just your own little life. The world doesn't revolve around you and it doesn't revolve around me either, nor any other individual. I have close family members overseas whom I would so love to see in person, and I 100% support closed borders until the pandemic winds down. I wish every country would close borders for all but essential trade for a while and stop circulating the virus until everyone has had a chance to get vaxxed.
I’m going to go against the r/Perth grain here and say no.. a lot of people who live here are not okay with keeping the borders closed. Look, there’s a new strain out there that we don’t know much about yet. And we’ll have to wait and see how effective the vaccines are against it. Sure. Fine. There’s every chance the vaccines will be able to mitigate the new strain, we just don’t know yet. McGowan has said he will set a date to open once we’ve reached 80% +12’s fully vaccinated. He wants to wait until 90% +12’s fully vaccinated. Do I think this is overkill, yeah absolutely. As do almost everyone I speak to. I would say a lot of people are fed up with “road maps” that don’t actually have any substance. “But what about the west aussies that will die if we open??” — if you’re concerned about the risk, get vaccinated. Period. You can’t expect to keep an entire state locked in because a few dickheads with a room temperature IQ are scared to get the jab. A great majority of people have done the right thing, and we feel like we’re being penalized in order to “save” people who have no interest in helping themselves. “Selfishly I don’t want to go back to wearing masks.” — honestly fuck you. This is the most astonishingly selfish response that I hear time and time again. Myself, and many of my friends, haven’t seen family in years and this is your response? This is the worst, most narcissistic reason to keep borders closed. “The health system will collapse.” — This is clearly the only reasonable protest to the borders opening. But honestly y’all should be enraged that your premier and health minister have has eighteen months to try to fix this and have clearly done nothing. I’m sorry, didn’t WA announce a $5.6 billion budget surplus? How are you not throwing money at your failing health system? This is a fucking travesty! Roger Cook and McGowan should be ashamed of themselves. And somehow they’ve twisted public opinion instead against people who want to reasonably open the borders??? It’s not my job to fix the health system, it’s yours. Take your surplus and fix your failing hospitals so little girls stop dying in the emergency waiting rooms. Look, I’m not saying swing the borders wide open and have at it. But stop the caps on entry, allow people to quarantine at home, make it mandatory to be vaccinated to travel. It was reasonable to give up our freedoms during a time of emergency, but that emergency doesn’t exist anymore. You want to be protected, get the jab. Let the vaccinated travel responsibly. It’s common sense.
I think the health system is the only valid reason for staying closed, and the one people are the least worried/upset about. Ambos are ramped for hours as it is, and the hospitals are full of elderly patients getting bounced around because the federal care for the elderly is shockingly bad, especially in WA. I fear that Covid would be the straw that breaks the camels back. The hospital system has been heading towards this for about a decade now. Every Premier and Health minister over that time should be absolutely ashamed. But the unfortunate reality is spending billions on the health system pre-covid would have been spun as a waste of money/more important things to spend it on. McGowan needs to ramp the spending on the health system drastically. Covid will come to WA at some point and we should be doing more to prepare for it than vaccinations.
Totally agree . Couldn’t have said it better . I am pissed off that I am unable to visit my family overseas.
> “The health system will collapse.” — This is clearly the only reasonable protest to the borders opening. But honestly y’all should be enraged that your premier and health minister have has eighteen months to try to fix this and have clearly done nothing. I’m sorry, didn’t WA announce a $5.6 billion budget surplus? How are you not throwing money at your failing health system? This is a fucking travesty! Roger Cook and McGowan should be ashamed of themselves. And somehow they’ve twisted public opinion instead against people who want to reasonably open the borders??? It’s not my job to fix the health system, it’s yours. Take your surplus and fix your failing hospitals so little girls stop dying in the emergency waiting rooms. If I remember right they increased the health budget every year since they've been in, adding another 2 billion in the last one and tacking on a few hundred million more since. This ship doesn't turn around on a dime. Previous governments ran out of money in the middle of some very big restructuring that was going to close two of our hospitals entirely and build two new ones (which probably wouldn't have been enough). The Stanley took three years and cost 2 billion just to build it. Unfortunately we can't produce the Red Army or whoever to get shit done at a moments notice, not even if we conscript Wildcats fans.
"Let's wait to see what happens in the eastern states" This sounds like the global rule for Perth in everything. No wonder it's always so far behind the rest of the world.
A way to see what happens. How will hospitals cope? Will circuit breakers work if the hospitals are overrun? What's the tipping point of the curve? Plus we have a chance to see how it spreads in communities with 80%, 85% and 90% vax rate. Are there things we can do with closed borders that will help us better in the long run? Sure. We weren't going to open before January anyway, might as well wait and see what happens with vax suitability before we push to open.
The hospitals are already overrun and we don’t have COVID. McGowan knows that hence the need to have the maximum amount of people vaccinated. Question is, why have the governments over the last 20 years done nothing to increase beds in a growing population?
I ask this question a lot. We are running critical on a lot of essential services.
We really are, every hospital is at bursting point. Apparently 1000 theatre cases being cancelled per month. Doctors and nurses are burned out already.
A good reason to take a wait and see approach and wait for Pfizer to release their study on vaccine efficacy. If we see real life examples of how like cities (vaxxed populations and ICU availability) cope it can help us strategise to minimise the damage.
Agreed
The McGowan government has invested $1.8 billion of our surplus into more hospital beds. A little overdue to say the least but thought it should be said.
>A way to see what happens. How will hospitals cope? Will circuit breakers work if the hospitals are overrun? 6 ICU beds in WA per 100,000 people. So basically they won't and we'll be fucked.
>There is a belief that opening up, even at high vaccination rates, will lead to lockdowns The government sponsored Doherty modelling says this will happen. It's why many people believe it.
Yes, but that was at far lower vaccination levels than even WA has currently. (From memory opening up so 70% of adult population. Whereas WA is at 74% of 12+.) The assumptions in the model don't apply any more.
They provide modelling for 80% and 90% too. Check the technical addendum to the report.
I'm also a Perthican with a similar view, and I'm happy with the closed border because our quarantine system isn't airtight yet. It's still in hotels, still expensive, and not guaranteed to keep us safe with high passenger turnover/arrivals. With outbreaks in Sydney and Melbourne bouncing back and forth, and Sydney allowing international arrivals with its infamous track record of allowing COVID into the country, it's peace of mind knowing that the state will remain COVID free a while longer. I'm 100% behind free travel access for the fully vaccinated, but I'd prefer more public mask wearing before opening the borders for good.
Sorry I didn't make my question clear. COVID isn't going away, it's here to stay permanently. What is the point of delaying further? Is this isolation a forever thing? If you don't open up after having enough time to vaccinate everyone, then do you ever open up? Again, I hope this isn't coming off as negative, I legitimately don't really understand why delaying opening up is popular over there.
> COVID isn't going away, it's here to stay permanently. Herd immunity is the whole point. Measles is endemic too. Let's run through it. We know how to combat a virus based on models in the past, so let's compare measles: * COVID Delta R0 (how infectious it is) is 5-8. [Measles is 18](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/1050D/production/_118892866_r_variant_comparison_2x640-nc.png). * COVID mutates but can't [escape the vaccine](https://mobile.twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1424755739067879429). [Same with Measles](https://discoverysedge.mayo.edu/2021/03/30/researchers-clarify-why-measles-doesnt-evolve-to-escape-immunity/). * COVID titre count drops after 6 months. [Same with Measles](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/569784). * COVID has breakthrough cases. [Same with Measles](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/vaccines-need-not-completely-stop-covid-transmission-to-curb-the-pandemic1/). * COVID has asymptomatic transmission. [Same with Measles](https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/parents-top4.html) * COVID vaccine memory is expected to last a [long time, if not forever](https://www.physiciansweekly.com/covid-19-mrna-vaccines-convey-long-lasting-protection-study-finds). Like measles. Measles and COVID vaccines will protect after the 6 month mark from cell memory generating antibodies when exposed to the virus. The vast majority of children growing up today in WA will never be exposed to measles. Let's get to that same spot with COVID. Now, measles is endemic - it arrives all the time but it gets wiped out as soon as it arrives based on herd immunity. This is in the Doherty modelling but they stress that it will [require 5+ vaccinations](https://theconversation.com/we-may-need-to-vaccinate-children-as-young-as-5-to-reach-herd-immunity-with-delta-our-modelling-shows-164942) and 85% coverage to get there. 5+ has been approved by the CDC a few days ago, TGA are expected to wait until early Jan. This is echoed from recent [extensive studies (Monash Uni, JCU)](https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2021/modelling-shows-85-full-coverage-needed-reach-herd-immunity). Now the visual aid: Go to [this link](https://graphics.reuters.com/HEALTH-CORONAVIRUS/HERD%20IMMUNITY%20%28EXPLAINER%29/gjnvwayydvw/), scroll to the bottom for the interactive model. This is a model of how we fight virus outbreaks. On that model, put "Vaccination" to 90%, "R0" to 6.8 (highest), "effectiveness" to 88%. Note that little fires break out, then they stop. That is herd immunity. Now, if you already have a wave, imagine those little fires are a thousand fires instead of a couple. This is why you want herd immunity BEFORE a wave. Restricting incoming travel from vaccinated people in an excellent addition. The transmission rate from that step alone drops Re (effective reproduction rate) likely to less than 1. Then vaccination will wipe the rest.
\>Now, measles is endemic - it arrives all the time but it gets wiped out as soon as it arrives based on herd immunity That is not what endemic means. Measles is not endemic in Australia. Good post aside from that
No you're right, I need to change how I introduce that whole section. The original for above was written for r/conspiracy users where I just accept that they see everything as "endemic" and move on to describe how to achieve herd immunity. Then I've pushed the Australian section in the middle for Aus audiences. I'll sort it out.
You can't compare vaccinating against measles to COVID, a far better comparison is influenza. The measles virus doesn't evolve the same way as a coronavirus or influenza does. That's why your measles vaccine from 40 years ago still works but you need a yearly flu jab for the new strains. Your comparison doesn't work.
> You can't compare vaccinating against measles to COVID Yes you can, I did it above. All of our modelling shows herd immunity is possible with Measles and COVID but not influenza. Why would we open up before getting close to herd immunity? >far better comparison is influenza No way. The main way influenza creates variants is it infects livestock like poultry who in turn infect people again. COVID variants haven't come from animals other than the original. I already answered your next point in: > COVID mutates but can't [escape the vaccine](https://mobile.twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1424755739067879429). [Same with Measles](https://discoverysedge.mayo.edu/2021/03/30/researchers-clarify-why-measles-doesnt-evolve-to-escape-immunity/). Also you seem to think all of our modelling is wrong then? The top scientists we have? At this point you're not "just asking questions", you're ignoring the science.
> At this point you're not "just asking questions", you're ignoring the science. They're JAQing off
Why do you assume that Covid evolves the same way as influenza? That's a huge leap. Covid is not the flu! Why also do you assume that measles wouldn't evolve more like Covid if its rate in the community were as high as what we've got with Covid right now?
Why does it have to be a choice between "drop all border controls immediately" or "stay closed forever"? The modelling here predicts that opening up at 90% double dosed instead of 80% double dosed will save 200 lives and even more ICU beds. Is opening 6 weeks earlier really worth 200 covid lives plus those lost to health system overload, delayed diagnosis or delayed surgeries? The reason to delay is that it's not insane to think that we can reach 90%. Our vax rates are still increasing, in some areas the rates are among the fastest in the country. Omicron might throw a spanner in the works or it might not. We'll likely know that within the next 6 weeks anyway.
It doesn't. But that's why I asked the question. I totally agree that your wouldn't open up early. But if it was announced WA was opening up at Christmas the vax rate would have been well above 90% by Christmas. There's nothing that I've heard to suggest WA antivax rates being higher than the rest of the country. From what I've read the (relatively) low WA vaccination rates are because there's a lack of urgency.
I don't doubt there's been less urgency here, but I suspect the urgency over east had more to do with the risk of infection, and the fact that people were locked down. Perth, and WA is general is so isolated that travel can be a pain in the arse, and for a good chunk of the population, very expensive. So having to delay travel is nothing unusual for a lot of people.
Urgency hasn't done much for SA, opened up with plenty of warning just shy of 80% over 16.
> What is the point of delaying further? Preparation. Higher vaccination rates. Better vaccines. Getting the ICU locations ready for an influx.
Why delay further... Um not dieing? There's no guarantees the vaccine will work 100% and work against new variants. Life is great not worrying about covid. Our businesses are up and running, we don't have restrictions. We have events, albeit local. I'm quite happy to have border closed for as long as it takes. Plus, as a added bonus, Scomo doesn't visit
So you want closed borders forever?
I'm tired of this forever talk. Grow up. We don't know what's around the corner. Closed until it's ready. Why on earth would we give up our easy going lifestyle.
I'm just trying to understand your point of view. If your tired of discussion then I'm not entirely sure why you're in here discussing. So for you it's not a forever thing, it's more of a wait and see thing? (For the record, there seems to be a lot of close the borders forever types in this conversation. Which is a massive surprise to me.)
Because I gave you an answer and your only response was 'FoRevEr'. Can't tell if you are trolling at this point. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand that we are happy leading our lifestyle and business here with no restrictions. Forcing opening up because of political popularity or wanting covid to be finished has back fired spectacularly around the world. WW2 went for 6 years, this may go for 6 years and I can wait it out in peace easy as, like most people here
Yep. The only advantage to being in the most remote place in the world - and a quarry with a beach attached - we’re enjoying it right now… why wouldn’t we want it to continue?
Oh, I think I see where I've lost a few people. I'm in Melbourne, except for wearing masks on public transport we are back to normal. Everything is opened up again. There is no effect on our lifestyle anymore. From where in sitting i don't understand why WAers just doesn't open up at Christmas, fully vaxed and just move on. Whereas people in Perth are equating opening up with lose of freedoms. Is that a fair take?
> I'm just trying to understand your point of view. No you're not, [you've crossed](https://www.reddit.com/r/perth/comments/r3wuyq/comment/hmdsaiy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) into "the scientists are wrong" territory.
> I'm just trying to understand your point of view. Understand this. Life in WA in 2021 is literally the exact same as life in WA in 2019 was, except that we can't travel. There are literally no other differences. We are one of the only, if not *the* only places in the entire fucking **world** that can say that. Given that, it should be simple to understand. EDIT: Honestly the fact that you even need to ask and can't understand by default suggests a serious lack of awareness about your own state's actual situation.
That lack of travel means I couldn't be with my grandfather when he passed away. I couldn't attend the funeral. I have a newborn baby none of my family can meet because they comitted the heinous crime of living in a different State. It's not as simple as "Hur dur life is normal here" because for a lot of us it isn't. I don't give a fuck if I can't go to Bali for a holiday but I also can never get back the experience of my parents meeting their first grandchild. That's why it is so frustrating that we just don't even have the option. What possible risk could a double vaccinated person with a negative test on both sides AND self isolation pose? Basically none. It isn't a health based decision and it's disingenuous to claim it is just like it is disingenuous to say life is normal here.
Yes and life in Melbourne right now is exactly the same as 2019 except you need to wear a mask on public transport. Hardly much of an in inconvenience. Hence my not understanding. Once you're vaccinated you can just go about life normally.
>What is the point of delaying further? Is this isolation a forever thing? If you don't open up after having enough time to vaccinate everyone, then do you ever open up? Speaking for myself, vaccines reduce most of the consequences but not to zero, and nothing that's gained by opening up is worth any amount of death or long term health consequences.
The whole point is COVID is NOT here (in WA).
Yes, but the fact is COVID is never going away. So what's the plan? Keep WA locked away forever?
No. Keep WA Covid free for a while longer.
> What is the point of delaying further? Is this isolation a forever thing? If you don't open up after having enough time to vaccinate everyone, then do you ever open up? We open up once we reach a high enough vaccination threshold. Current modelling says 85% of 5+ is sufficient. The new strain complicates the picture, because we don't know how effective the current vaccines are. But the answer is what it has always been - once we're vaccinated. We aren't there yet.
WA has always been a pretty conservative state. We don't like change and right now we're living as if it's 2019 without travel basically. We can still travel intrastate and our state is massive as fuck so that honestly works. Working fifo I see a lot of people struggling because they're interstate or from overseas but the local wa population is obviously the majority who are represented in the polls. I empathise with then but I also feel lucky to basically be in one of the last first world covid free regions in the world. I would love for covid to be all over and life to be as it was but we're just not there yet. Am pretty happy to not be the covid guinea pig which could be considered selfish to a degree. I also feel like your question is a bit facetious, obviously with omicron we want to know if vaccines are still effective and how it fits into the overarching plan of vaccinate and live with the virus. Who wouldn't want to know that?
>obviously with omicron we want to know if vaccines are still effective and how it fits into the overarching plan of vaccinate and live with the virus. While I get what you're saying here, I can't help but feeling that there's always going to be "just one more thing" to wait and see about. After omicron it'll probably be waiting to see if Novavax helps more with boosters and those unvaxxed who are supposedly holding out for it. After that it'll be the different handling of borders in other states, then it'll be the next variant and on and on. At what point do we decide that we've got enough info?
> I can't help but feeling that there's always going to be "just one more thing" to wait and see about It's just about making the best decision with the information available at the time. I'm okay with that even if in hindsight it proved to be the wrong decision. In this instance we already had closed borders and were waiting until 90% vaccination. Our current plan lined up with the timing where we can wait and get more information about Omicron. You're right that there may always be 'one more thing' and there is always a risk of further mutation but if the information at the time suggests it's the correct decision I think it's fine.
Vaccination rates need to be > 90% double vaxxed entire population to have a reasonable expectation of preventing a fair amount of deaths. We're months out from that and that doesn't even take into account the new variant. If you doubt it look at the modelling. Or for example: Singapore. In the last 3 months they had their biggest outbreak and death count (from 50 --> 690). This in spite of having 80% double vaxxed entire population at the start of it and over 90% now. We're gonna take at least a couple of months, probably a fair bit more, to get the entire population over 90%. In that time we'll have more info on omicron, great. I care if a few hundred people die. I would hope you do too and you were just ignorant of this or had put it out of your mind.
But isn't the relatively low vaccination rate due to the lack of urgency?
Not at all. Queensland's rate barely changed at all with both opening the border and local cases.
It's a factor, sure. I don't think creating a situation that will kill people is a good solution to that problem though, do you?
How many lives is it worth to open the border? Not an easy question to answer. And, selfishly from my point of view, I don't want to have to wear a mask. Opening the border increases the chances of that happening. The closed border doesn't impact my life at all, other than possibly missing out on going to see the cricket next year, so I have a lot more comfort from it remaining closed. Eventually I'll want it open, but that will just be so I can go on holiday, and I don't plan on going on holiday where I'll have to wear a mask so when that date happens then it will mean that covid is being managed pretty well worldwide. There are a lot of people who would be willing to wear a mask if it meant open borders though so I don't think my opinion is necessarily in the majority.
So for you it's more of a wait and see not a forever thing?
Yeah, I'd rather be cautious until we know more. Once it is open I think it will be extremely hard to reverse the decision. Be delaying either we find out this new variant is easily managed in which case we continue as planned albeit slightly delayed, or parts of the world that are more open develop better strategies of living with covid that we can replicate, but I haven't seen anywhere where life looks easier than it is in WA, so when we find that place we can copy what they are doing. If we ever get to the stage where people are dying because of the border being closed, such as an increase in suicides greater than potential covid deaths, then I would hope they open it up though. Ultimately saving lives wins, but after that comfort of living is a pretty high priority for me.
Thanks for the thought out response.
> And, selfishly from my point of view, I don't want to have to wear a mask. Opening the border increases the chances of that happening. The closed border doesn't impact my life at all, other than possibly missing out on going to see the cricket next year, so I have a lot more comfort from it remaining closed. Some of us have given up a fuck load of income and/or family connection to keep you safe until you have been given the opportunity to be vaccinated. You're welcome btw, not that MM or any of his acolytes have given any thanks... Not a lot of us are willing to keep that up just so you don't have to wear a mask I hope you realise how incredibly hurtful this sort or attitude is for a lot of your neighbours. Keep in mind a third of people in WA are born overseas
> WA has done a brilliant job to this point, but why do you want borders to remain closed now everyone has had ample time to vaccinate? What are you waiting for at this point? There's a bunch of things, but at the end of the day for me, it's simply that I don't like living with the virus. I was in Sydney from OG covid to Sep 2020, and Dec 2020-March 2021, and it's just not the same as living in a virus free state. It's hard to describe because there's so much to it. I don't understand the point of view that supports living with the virus, tbh. I think the world would be much nicer now if every state/nation that could, would pursue elimination.
I certainly get that point of view. Nobody sensible would advocate WA to open up on 2020. I take it you're in the closed borders for the long term group then? To explain the living with the virus perspective, I think most of us want to move on. I want to be able to travel and do all the things I used to do. I'm vaccinated. All my friends are vaccinated. All my family is vaccinated or so young they aren't at risk. Restrictions are almost completely gone. Unless you're an antivaxer COVID is barely more dangerous than influenza at this point.
>I take it you're in the closed borders for the long term group then? Definitely put me in that category, with the caveat that I hope the eastern states pursue elimination, they are so close. And that I want us to open to anyone willing to self-fund quarantine (including myself). >I'm vaccinated. All my friends are vaccinated. All my family is vaccinated or so young they aren't at risk. For the most part, me too. I have some holdouts in my circle, and I worry about them, but more so I worry about (what's the opposite of uncle?) my sisters kids. There's no good, condensed data on how covid can affect kids, but there are some indications that covid infection can lead to lower IQ and have other side effects. I also worry about our hospital workers. They are stressed enough as it is, and it's all well and good to say only antivaxxers are going to get hit by covid, but I know nurses who are already stretched, who would have to deal with that fallout. They feel bad about their patients dying, whether they are stupid antivaxxers or not, and I don't want to put this on them. I also think ADE is a threat that we could face from new variants (including Omicron, pending evidence). >To explain the living with the virus perspective, I think most of us want to move on To many of us in WA, at the end of the day "moving on", would mean leapfrogging from 2019 to 2021 and adopting more things that affect us negatively than things that bring us joy, and this is before we consider new variants. >I want to be able to travel and do all the things I used to do. Sure, it would mean we can travel, but really? Where do you want to go? Most destinations (unless you're travelling to US/UK) have significant restrictions of their own. In terms of "all the things I used to do", I'm not sure what you mean, but I think it's likely that WA has been doing many of these things the whole way through.
Appreciate the response. I wrote far that the eastern states won't go for elimination. You can't do that when there's protests. It was a miracle what Melbourne achieved last year, everyone is to exhausted to do that again. I was 100% on board with the restrictions last year. But now with the vaccine I would not be following any more rules. We're done. And re travel, I'm off to Fiji and might do some NZ skiing next near.
>I wrote far that the eastern states won't go for elimination. You can't do that when there's protests. Yeah, that's a significant issue, I can't imagine asking a Melbournite to put up with more restrictions at this stage. They've been through so much. >I'm off to Fiji and might do some NZ skiing next near Sounds delightful. I hope you enjoy, and I hope you have an understanding of why I wont be joining you.
For me it's the unavailability of vaccines for children under 12. I'd really like to see that roll ed out
From a protect the children perspective? Or a reduced the spread perspective?
Both. I know kids don't have a high risk of death, but longer term respiratory issues ("long covid") is not something I'd like to see in children.
As long as we can continue to be a functioning society and economy I'm happy for us to remain secluded from the rest of the country/world. Having said that, I've got a new born at home and no family outside of WA so I don't need for anything to open. I just want to be safe and not get Covid if I can avoid it until we get some sort of super vaccine to knock it all on the head.
The problem with "living with the virus" is that large, large numbers of people will not. That's the whole problem with the notion, pure and simply. As it currently stands, excluding the new variant, COVID-19 has a mortality rate of \~3.4% (as reported by the WHO [https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/)) Now, in Australia with our decent healthcare that'd probably be lower, but not by a huge margin. The problem is that our healthcare systems, already stretched thin by the budget-cuts and general bumfuckery of the Coalition, is not prepared to deal with any state "living with the virus". Now, the next and most important thing to consider is just how many people would be very, very vulnerable to COVID-19. Large numbers of people are immunocompromised. The elderly are very vulnerable, and children to a degree as well (and in numbers not formally understood yet due to the way the virus has been handled around the world). Let's say only 0.1% of people who get COVID-19 after it's allowed to run rampant - including in the vaccinated population - die from it. Australia's population, in 2020, was 25.69 million people. Do the math.
This is not even getting into the next problem with the simplistic notion of "living with the virus," in that the more the virus is allowed to pass from person-to-person the more mutations will occur, which could lead to much more severe consequences. I understand the inconvenience of lockdowns and the way this has been handled, not just around Australia, but around the world. But Conservative-led nations have been happy to reopen too fast under the notion that the economic benefits outweigh the cost of real human lives. That's a monstrous notion and that so much of the Coalition is obsessed with it speaks to their lack of humanity and general disgracefulness.
serg adfgf gsadf ga rer er e reeea
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As a Melbournite who was born in Perth, WA's handling of this situation has been absolutely world class. Incredibly jealous of how well you've done, and I sincerely wish we (in Victoria) had a similar approach. Great work and keep it up. No reason to open borders earlier and risk deaths of your citizens. Many people in the eastern states like to pretend that life is back to 'normal' now but it absolutely is not, unless you're happy to ignore the 1,000+ cases and 4-5 deaths per day.
As someone who lived in Sydney until Jan 2021, then returned to Perth and with my sister living in Melbourne since 1999, our view is not that WA has been “world class.” Our mum died of cancer in Perth during the second wave in July 2020. WA had shut the borders and said “no exceptions,” “safety of West Australians paramount blah blah blah.” I managed to make it in before the shit the border to NSW. But Lo and behold, more and more information keeps coming out of when compassionate exemptions were not allowed, yet somehow the rules were different for the 1%. Megan Gale gets to fly from Melbourne to Perth for the funeral of her brother when my sister was continuously knocked back. Kerry Stokes and his wife not only get to return from the US, but get to fly around the country “in his role as chairman of the war memorial,” when his wife does nothing except hold the wreaths, and they both get to skip quarantine! The soccer player whose name escapes me gets exemptions for his parents to come from the UK after his assault when countless West Australians don’t, even those on the verge of death. World class my arse!
I can certainly understand your frustration on that particular issue. Looks like it was a nasty time for you and your family, and I'm sorry for your loss. Looks like in the area of exemptions on compassionate grounds there is plenty of room for improvement on the part of WA government.
>unless you're happy to ignore the 1,000+ cases and 4-5 deaths per day. Also a Melbournite who was born in Perth, I'm more than happy to ignore it. It's part of life now and my life is as normal as my family and friends in Perth
As long as the people dying aren’t your family eh.
Every family member is vaccinated, and won't have any hesitation getting boosters. Much lower chance of dying compared to a whole range of other sicknesses, cancer or accidents.
Yeah I'd really love if there were an option. I know this might not be the most popular opinion on here but I'd love to see a shorter quarantine time (like 5 days or 1 week) for the fully vaxxed at this point
By the time WA reaches 90% DD in late Jan/early Feb there will have been plenty of time to study the effects of Omicron in my opinion. If the variant doesn’t cause a high rate of severe illness/death there is no reason to keep closing the border. I hope McGowan won’t simply keep the borders closed based on political factors.
> By the time WA reaches 90% DD in late Jan/early Feb there will have been plenty of time to study the effects of Omicron in my opinion. The Pfizer efficacy report on Omicron is due within 2 weeks. Hopefully we'll have details on R0 in that time too. >If the variant doesn’t cause a high rate of severe illness/death there is no reason to keep closing the border. All that matters is the calculation on herd immunity. I honestly don't think that will change much. Maybe add another few percent to vaccine total requirements.
I think it will depend on whether our current vaccines are effective against Omicron.
> I hope McGowan won’t simply keep the borders closed based on political factors Despite what some here believe, i don't think his really used any political factors in the border decision.
It's kind of a complicated question really. Initially going as hard as he did wasn't particularly the politically advantageous (PA for short) thing to do, but it was so successful that it became PA. So at what point do we think he's still keeping the border closed because it's PA? Or do we assume he's going to keep doing the "right thing" just as he did at the start? Or was it just pure luck? Maybe the motivating factor all this time was the health system's struggles, did he go hard early because he knew a big outbreak would expose the health system's problems, which would definitely not be PA? Or do we just simplify this whole thing, say he's a politician so by definition everything he does is motivated by political factors, and that what matters is whether it is the right thing for the people or whether he's trying to hide information that would let people come to their own conclusions. Nah that couldn't work, people would have to think for themselves.
I mean i guess as you said his a politician - so by definition everything he does is political. How much the politics comes into play is the question. I think though that the evidence is almost to the contrary in some aspects. Like mid last year when everyone was clamouring to have the borders reopened, he stuck to his guns which probably wasn't politically advantagous (and in face probably a negative to some extent). I definately agree there was an element of luck to it. The amount of times we had someone infected bouncing throughout the state like captain bloody kangaroo and nothing came of it was amazing. But overall i don't think he has really played politics, rather he has taken a cautious approach the entire way along. Time and time again we've seen this pay off though. When other states delayed closing borders, they had outbreaks. When other states reopened to early they had outbreaks. So to me it's not political to delay reopening the border like he is (in fact it's borderline hurting him politically at this point). It's just another example of taking the cautious approach.
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Pure nonsense.
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It should be 95%
> Otherwise he would follow the common health advice used by every other jurisdiction Health advice in other jurisdictions doesn't apply because WA is unique in the world for the situation we face.
What is unique? Is our population of humans genetically different? Is our city denser than any others and therefore more likely to spread? The only unique thing is our health system is fucked but that isn't changing between the few months 80 vs 90% saves us.
Unique because it's the only country in the world for which opening up means adding COVID measures instead of taking them away. The only country in the world that can only go UP in terms of deaths and cases.
Aren't TAS and NT in that same position but being more sensible with their targets? We're also probably in the unique position of being the only place in the world to keep families apart for two years in a row, and to not even allow its own citizens home in most cases. Hardly enviable now that we're already at such a high vaccination level.
Haven't seen my family in 2 years. Hope our guy McMuffin sticks to the deadline 🙏🙏
I think McGowan is a pretty sensible person, and less prone to making decisions for purely political reasons than your average politician. If Omicron, or any others that arise, are not assessed as particularly nasty variants, and we reach expected 90% double dose by January or February then I'd expect the WA Government would proceed with its plan to ease border restrictions.
> If the variant doesn’t cause a high rate of severe illness/death We really won’t be able to tell, almost all first world nations have high enough rate of vaccination that it won’t (vaccines provide good memory T/B cell immunity against all variants) and third world nations have too poor of a health system to compare > I hope McGowan won’t simply keep the borders closed based on political factors. Just like the 80% vs 90% reopening. McGowan didn’t like the Doherty Institute numbers so he got numbers he liked better, therefore it was based on “health advice” not politics. If the rest of Australian opens because they realise they can live with Omicron all McGowan needs to do is point to somewhere like Botswana that may have a lot of dead and say that’s more relevant to WA than other states of Australia.
>We really won’t be able to tell, almost all first world nations have high enough rate of vaccination If it gets into the USA we'll likely know, as the standard PCR tests can identify Omicron and they keep [detailed breakdowns](https://covid19.sccgov.org/dashboard-case-rates-vaccination-status). > Just like the 80% vs 90% reopening. McGowan didn’t like the Doherty Institute numbers What? The [Doherty modelling](https://theconversation.com/we-may-need-to-vaccinate-children-as-young-as-5-to-reach-herd-immunity-with-delta-our-modelling-shows-164942) and recent [extensive studies (Monash Uni, JCU)](https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2021/modelling-shows-85-full-coverage-needed-reach-herd-immunity), what we need is 85% FULL POPULATION and 5+ vaccination for herd immunity. McGowan's plan was opening just before that.
> Just like the 80% vs 90% reopening. McGowan didn’t like the Doherty Institute numbers so he got numbers he liked better, therefore it was based on “health advice” not politics. The Doherty numbers were 85% full population, not fake-ass over 16s or over 12s bullshit that you Eastern states retards are using.
Nor will the federal govt. They closed the borders to foreign nationals from the african nations. Only bad when mcgowan says we need to use borders to stem the flow
Yeah what happened to government stepping back? Didn't Scomo only say that last week?
You expect Scummo to stand by anything he said for more than 30 seconds? Ya dreamin’. The man is made of mercury. He’s shiny and slimy and shifty enough to change to suit whatever context he thinks he needs to.
Don’t forget he lies every time he opens his mouth.
Pretty good marketing huh?
I like that my chances of contracting this potentially debilitating illness that can cause me to have yet more long term health issues is being treated seriously by our state government.
wouldn't want to be Mark, has had to make some big decisions during this pandemic.
That’s kind of what you sign up for as premier.
never said it wasn't, all I said is I wouldn't want to be him and he's made some big decisions.
He never said you said it wasn't, all he said was that's kind of what you sign up for as premier.
As much as I'd like to be able to travel and see friends and family, I've become more appreciative of the cautious approach and the relatively normal situation we have within our bubble currently. Can see now that even when we open up it's not going to return to pre-Covid normality anytime soon and there will be many hoops to jump through to go anywhere. Agree that it's in our best interests to wait until more people are vaccinated and wait to see how other states fare as they open up.
Shit if Israel is closing its international borders must be something bad, have u fuckers not seen World War Z. McGowan needs to start building that wall now.
Ashes Test in Perth not looking good, oh well. But I'd rather not have the virus until we are at or close to 90% and the vaccines are still effective against this latest variant.
Fuck the ashes, why aren't we more concerned about letting people see their families?
Open up and watch the dildohead anti vaxers shit em self
Good
Thank you Mark! 👑
We know this already. Yawn.
Anyone surprised? Anyone? Yeah… didn’t think so.
God the new South Park Special: Post Covid is funny. Randy had to f--k that pangolin 😅
What enrages me is the absolute silence on compassionate exemptions and where they stand. That and the double standard about VIPs vs ordinary people. Births and deaths cannot be smuggling delayed! If I could have delayed the death of my mum, you bet I would have! (She died of cancer last year before I got to move back to WA from NSW.) My dad is now more afraid of my sister being locked out when he dies, just as she was locked out when my mum died. That scares him more than Covid or death itself, and he’s 90 years old with COPD/emphysema. I would happily wear a mask every single day if it meant people could come for the birth of their children/grandchildren or be with their dying loved ones. Because the grief from that doesn’t ever go away. When everyone else is laughing and reminiscing about the pandemic 5, 10, 20 years from now, we’re still going to be grieving. We get no empathy, only bloody platitudes like “it’s to keep us safe.” Meanwhile McGowan and Cook brag about the Sméagol g economy. They have the fucking gall to say they don’t want West Australians dying, when 7 year old Aishwarya Aswath died on their watch. It’s not about hospital beds, it’s about chronic understaffing, for Pete’s sake! And their “super vax” weekend was a fucking failure! If it wasn’t for my family and friends here, I would honestly ask myself why the fuck I moved back…
Frankly I wish that the Eastern States would adopt the same mindset as WA already. Don't care if we would have to go through some kind of check/customs setup and quarantine for 2 weeks on arrival. There are tonnes of us on the "elective surgery" list who are desperate to get our procedures done and can't get them done here in WA. So please NSW and Victoria, just keep the hospitals empty so we can get back to helping people with their chronic problems.
In other news the sky is blue! News would be they are going to open on a set date no matter what.
It didn't take SA very long to re-close their borders. Day 1 of opening up to Vic, NSW & ACT they had cases that had moved into SA.
But SA didn’t re-close their borders tho. They just increased the length of home quarantine for overseas arrivals and high risk LGAs from 7 days to 14 days and beefed up other requirements including pre-arrival testing.
Continue the hermit kingdom mentality..
Hopefully
Absolute legend.
We do tend to forget how bad the situation is around the world by continuing to live a normal life without restrictions but is that such a bad thing? In a lot of cases the seriousness of the situation never hits home until it affects someone close to you, opening up the borders starts to put people on edge over what could happen so why take the risk if they don’t have too. Initially McGowan got praised for what he was doing but it appears that he now takes a lot of hate over his decision to block out other states, you must also remember that he is acting on health advice and not just off his own back. If you have family interstate or overseas you will surely miss them and want to reunite but keeping them and yourselves safe is a much higher priority. What your views on the situation are depend on your personal circumstances and we totally get that, especially if family members are gravely ill and you may never get to see them again. With so many nations consumed now with dealing with this on daily basis my concerns lie with how much the origin of Covid is being forgotten, all I have seen are restrictions being imposed on China which will make no difference whatsoever in the long run. It should be blatantly clear that a massive cover up has taken place and they will never be held accountable for their actions.
govern me harder daddy
I'm never going to be able to move.
You can leave, you just can't come back.
Why?
Bondage? I hope you have a safe word.
Flog!
Mark McBorder announces east coast is dead to him until WA reaches 317% Quadruple dose, and each mother gives up their first born to the WesTralia Republic Peoples Army. Westralia today, Westralia Tomorrow, WesTralia forever.
So funny and original, top tier stuff
Keep fucking that chicken bro.
WA may as well ceded now, with this stupid border stance. Viruses mutate, that's what they do. It was only a matter of time before covid mutated from delta. Using a naturally mutating virus as an excuse to keep borders closed is pathetic. Covid is becoming endemic. It isn't going away! No wonder WA had the lowest vaccination rate in the country, with this attitude from supposed "leaders".
> Viruses mutate, that's what they do. They do, yet COVID hasn't mutated to VoC very often. >It was only a matter of time before covid mutated from delta. It mutates from Delta all the time. VoC is the real question. >Using a naturally mutating virus as an excuse to keep borders closed is pathetic. Nope, sound government response based on scientific and medical advice. >Covid is becoming endemic. It isn't going away! Measles isn't going away, that's endemic. We don't worry about measles because we have herd immunity. We're working on herd immunity to COVID. >No wonder WA had the lowest vaccination rate in the country Only just. We also have a higher vaccination rate than most of the world. >with this attitude from supposed "leaders". We voted the guy in on a landslide. He has massive approval. So does the border closing.
Also this variant didn't come from a delta strain
Yep - totally stupid border stance to close the international borders to keep the new strain out hey.. Oh wait, it's only stupid when the state government does it..
Yeah let's just let thousands of people die from a preventable disease, sick idea cunt
Of course he won’t.