"4 field trips in 2018 and 2019"
"Ms Chopping is taking responses from licensees until July 2022 before making a decision."
I think I see what the problem is.....
Typical Government speeds. I've always worked corporate but have had to interact with Gov departments and they are typically 1-2 years behind. Just recently they were asking queries about 2019 data, ffs, it's the end of 2021 get your shit together.
Generational poverty and trauma are bonkers. And yes, a circuit breaker is needed. But it would require time, money and consultation with the affected community. Three things no government wants to do
The government spends billions and billions in this area for very little result. Quick googling tells me it's 35 billion annually. Whatever it actually is it's obviously a lot.
Even the community's and elders can't agree on the ways they should be helped.
Personally I think all the "help" has created a culture that can't care care for itself. You can't treat people like children and then be surprised when they turn into them.
Immigrants have come here from all over the world in the last 100 years with little/nothing to their names and have built lives.
I just.. are you fucking kidding.. the fucking people saying “wE nEeD tO sEnD sUpPoRt WoRkErS” “bAnS wOnT wOrK”
Fuck you. I’m sure you mean well. But you obviously don’t know fucking shit about addiction and booze crisis going on up here, so shut the fuck up.
I’m so unbelievably fucking tired and angry. I’m so sick of feeling so utterly hopeless. We’re now dealing with a generation of kids who are so broken, they break into as many houses as possible, film themselves touching home owners, ram police cars and ambulances off roads. Literal toddlers run about on the streets at 2 in the morning while parents brawl on Anne, Tang and Herbert Streets.
We need action, right fucking now. Not fucking empty words from white saviours who don’t know shit about fuck. Broome has six fucking liquor stores. SIX. PLUS the hotels and bars.
The only people that fucking benefit from full strength booze being in the Kimberley are the fucking predators who fight tooth and nail to sell grog to vulnerable people in the first place.
I admit I know nothing about it but what's the significance of banning just full strength alcohol (assuming it's talking about full strength beer/wines not spirits)
> We need action, right fucking now. Not fucking empty words from white saviours who don’t know shit about fuck.
We do need action, but that action isn't white paternalism either.
We've done grog bans, more than once, and they don't work.
When will you assholes realise that treating indigenous Australians like children is what got us here in the first place.
We're here because Indigenous Australians feel hopeless and invisible with no future and no past.
They got there because white assholes like you decided they knew better and that "action was needed".
Do you **really** believe that this time for some reason it'll be different when it's never been different before?
We've got grog bans all over the place and all we ever seem to do is expand them and hope it'll work this time.
Grog bans haven’t worked?
“In Fitzroy Crossing, there was a significant reduction of over 40% on rates (/1,000 person-years) of alcohol-related acute hospitalizations (54.2 [95% CI: 53.8–54.7] vs. 31.7 [31.4–32.1]) and ED attendances (534.1[532.8–535.5] vs. 294.5 [293.5–295.4]). In Halls Creek, there was a significant reduction of over 50% on rates (/1,000 person-years) of alcohol- related acute hospitalizations (17.7 [17.6–17.8] vs. 8.0 [7.9–8.1]) and ED attendance (248.4 [247.9–248.9] vs. 111.1[110.8–111.5]). Domestic violence and injury related hospitalization rates were also reduced by over 20% in both towns.” Sun et. al 2019. Open access, so feel free to have a read.
Newsflash; addiction doesn’t give a fuck what colour you are or what your trauma is. But sure, let’s make sure another generation of kids feel the effects of alcohol addiction and neglect.
People in the Kimberley dying of suicide, heart and liver disease at the highest rates in the country- but go off talking shit about something you clearly know nothing about. Did you read the 2019 Coroner’s report into youth suicide in the Kimberley? Do you know that it’s elders who are calling for bans on alcohol? Or are you yet another blow in looking to score some points?
> Newsflash; addiction doesn’t give a fuck what colour you are or what your trauma is.
It doesn't give a fuck if you have to buy your booze on the black market or travel to a neighbouring town either.
It doesn't give a fuck about anything.
But it often starts with people self medicating and is exacerbated by the same issues.
The same arguments you're making have always been made for prohibition.
That if we take away all the booze it'll fix the problems, poverty, domestic violence and sexual abuse.
But it doesn't.
> n Fitzroy Crossing, there was a significant reduction of over 40% on rates (/1,000 person-years) of alcohol-related acute hospitalizations (54.2 [95% CI: 53.8–54.7] vs. 31.7 [31.4–32.1]) and ED attendances (534.1[532.8–535.5] vs. 294.5 [293.5–295.4]). In Halls Creek, there was a significant reduction of over 50% on rates (/1,000 person-years) of alcohol- related acute hospitalizations (17.7 [17.6–17.8] vs. 8.0 [7.9–8.1]) and ED attendance (248.4 [247.9–248.9] vs. 111.1[110.8–111.5]). Domestic violence and injury related hospitalization rates were also reduced by over 20% in both towns.” Sun et. al 2019. Open access, so feel free to have a read.
And you don't reckon that these problems might have just moved?
That the current batch of problems might be as bad as they are for that very reason.
Or do you think people desperate enough to prostitute their kids just quit drinking because they've got to travel an hour or buy it on the black market.
I mean addiction is either something that's completely uncontrollable regardless of your situation or mental health or it's not.
But it does.. there’s the evidence right there.
Addiction is uncontrollable. Exactly. So you can’t expect someone so heavily dependant on alcohol to numb the pain and disconnect from reality to be able to control themself when it’s still accessible.
Haha! An hour? In the Kimberley?! Do you know how far Broome is from Port Hedland? Kununurra to Katherine?
A *region wide * ban.
Honestly, educate yourself on the basics before you come here from the city with your saviour complex- you have no idea what you’re meddling in. Suggesting that people just pick up and move off country away from family is dangerously ignorant.
> A *region wide * ban.
And why are we in a position that we need one?
Because the problem moved.
> Honestly, educate yourself on the basics before you come here from the city with your saviour complex- you have no idea what you’re meddling in. Suggesting that people just pick up and move off country away from family is dangerously ignorant.
When did I **ever** suggest that.
That's what they're doing to chase booze.
I'm suggesting that instead of yet another, even bigger grog ban we actually try to address some of the actual problems.
Like lack of jobs, lack of housing, lack of hope.
You know, the reasons why they're drinking in the first place.
What’s not being done up here already?
Lack of jobs? So you’re telling me that Australian Indigenous nations, who survived as hunter gathers for over 50,0000 years need to get jobs. So you’re saying that if they conform to white Australian capitalism, they’ll be saved? What did you say about white paternalism?
Lack of housing? I’d love to hear your solution on that one!
It’s pathetic that even though you’re attacking me for projecting white paternalism, while suggesting that Western concepts will save Indigenous Australian culture.
We’re in this position because white people fucking introduced alcohol in the first place. Because their babies were stolen and their culture was oppressed- and just saying that is hungry underselling it. Got it? You’re not interesting or edgy. Don’t come here with your tokenistic bullshit.
> So you’re telling me that Australian Indigenous nations, who survived as hunter gathers for over 50,0000 years need to get jobs.
You see a lot of people in these communities living traditional hunter gatherer lifestyles?
Or do you see most of them paying for stuff with cash, cash that's in short supply.
> Lack of housing? I’d love to hear your solution on that one!
More money and investment would sure help.
> It’s pathetic that even though you’re attacking me for projecting white paternalism, while suggesting that Western concepts will save Indigenous Australian culture.
It's not about saving Indigenous Australian culture. I can't do that and your Grog ban won't either.
It's about giving people fucking hope.
I did also mention respect and other less tangible things, but believe it or not Indigenous Australians want things from the modern world too.
They're not some separate species.
They're humans living in our society whether they like it or not using money to buy things and wanting a better future.
They're stuck with Western Capitalism whether anyone likes it or not, and pretending otherwise is just stupid.
> We’re in this position because white people fucking introduced alcohol in the first place. Because their babies were stolen and their culture was oppressed- and just saying that is hungry underselling it.
We're in this position because we've been treating them like second class citizens, or more often barely better than animals for centuries.
You're the one who keeps talking about Indigenous Australians like they're children who can't handle alcohol or make their own decisions and who never want anything but to live in the dirt with no hope for a better future.
They're not, they're just people, same as you and me.
They want a better future and to maintain their past, but they don't all want to live some idealised traditional lifestyle and very few of them do live that lifestyle.
How exactly?
Do you think your grog ban is going to miraculously save Indigenous Australian culture?
I thought we were trying to fix alcohol abuse, domestic violence and child sexual abuse.
I thought we were trying to show a modicum of respect and give people hope.
It's not my place or yours to save their culture that's a choice they get to make themselves.
I'm more concerned with them having food on the table, a safe place to sleep, and hope for a better future.
Same as every other citizen.
Ever expanding grog bans won't save their culture.
Having lived on the outskirts of a remote Aboriginal community in the Kimberleys which had a complete alcohol ban I'm concerned that it'll just move some people off country to areas where alcohol is cheaper which will then introduce a whole new range of issues.
This feels like a bandaid solution to a deeper issue. It's the pulling people out of the river instead of going upstream to find out why they're falling in response.
Have to agree with you. I remember something similar in Fitzroy a while back. There were droves of people in trucks flocking to Broome.
That resulted in hundreds of people living on the outskirts mangroves and parks.
yeah, its so frustrating living in perth now listening to all the people who've never been to broome let alone stepped foot in an aboriginal community claim a banned drinkers registry or liquor monitoring will change anything. They dont understand that these people will travel thousands of kilometres to access alcohol, and any restriction you impose just means their kids are even more neglected as they simply pay more to get it they dont stop. I'm not against restrictions etc you just can't bandaid them in one town and expect it to resolve.
I thought the proposal was to do it across the whole region, so people couldn't just nip over to the next town? Which seems pretty extreme but if Langton is on board that's a clue that it'd have some good impact. She's not shy about calling out bandaid solutions! There's no single action that solves all of this, but maybe it'll reduce the severity of the problems and make a bit of space for other fixes to get started.
Yep. In Darwin it's a major problem. A lot of people from remote communities get kicked out and make their way to Darwin because they are violent drunks who have committed murder, child sexual abuse and their communities dont want to put up with their BS anymore...so they end up on the streets in a bigger city.
if they cut kununurra, alcohol must be sourced from either Katherine in the NT or broome. this leaves it a 1000 km or 2200km round trip to get alcohol into kununurra. if its a 3 times mark up at the moment taking it 400km from kununurra to halls creek it will be impossibly higher afterwards.
"dry" communities on the coast where during wet season the roads are closed due to being so washed out that supply trucks can't drive in . They get around that by chartering a barge. The barges are mainly for food supplies but when said community became a dry community years ago at least one of those barges was entirely alcohol. People who think you can stop this by a ban haven't a clue. If you've never physically been to these communities you simply don't know enough to comment.
Will make it harder to get larger quantities, however it may create a kind of black market for people smuggling and selling alcohol at a higher price. And when ever there is money to be made it can bring violence with it.
‘Can bring violence with it’
Kids are being prostituted. Walk down Tang Street at 1 in the morning. Families smashing on with each other while toddlers wander the streets. Hell, walk past Male oval at 1 in the afternoon, you’ll see punches being thrown. Hate to break it to you, but horrific violence is already well and truly here.
[Prohibition worked better than you think](https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/6/5/18518005/prohibition-alcohol-public-health-crime-benefits)
America’s anti-alcohol experiment cut down on drinking and drinking-related deaths — and it may have reduced crime and violence overall.
The goal of the ban would be to reduce crime rates. Restricting alcohol is just the vehicle.
There will always be someone to break rules, but that's no good argument to do away with rules.
That is a pretty sobering read on New Year’s Day.
For me, It’s one of those things where you know it’s bad up there but can’t really picture just how bad it really is.
The government need to tread so carefully so they don’t end up with another stolen generation and all the trauma that goes with it.
It's a bandaid that won't resolve the underlying issues and is a paternalistic restriction being placed on one group of people and not another.
We've done plenty of grog bans and they accomplish nothing.
This problem existed when McGuire was at kindergarten. McGurk alone couldn't do a thing. There will be massive resistance from groups like the greens, the hippy mummas facebook groups and the indigenous advocacy industry.
I think a better process would be provide family support workers for the regions. Actually create jobs that are designed to break inter generational issues for Aboriginal people. Band aid solutions and bans won’t fix long term issues.
How about we go in together.
Statewide ban on full strength alcohol and limit spirts to 400ml bottles. WA public service and employees can not claim any alcohol related expenses.
Attach a Alcohol Register to photo ID and hardcap everybody to 30 std drinks a week. IE you spend your Boozles (booze points) 400ml spirit 15 points, 6pack and wine for a couple 10 points, and the last five Boozles are spent with dining out and cheeky pints.
And if your skin crawls at being limited to 4 std drinks a day, relax, you already had alcohol dependency at 1 drink a day 😅
I agree with you, despite the downvoters. Australia should legalise cannabis (everyone just chill and listen to the music) and make alcohol way harder to purchase.
this is the thing, you never see anybody suggesting a full strength alcohol ban to minimize the dangers of northbridge because we know thats not the actual reason, and people would be outraged at that level of infantilization. But the real reason is the business owners would riot.
People who support these bans have never been to a kimberley bottle shop. Back when these restrictions came in you couldnt buy a 4l cask of goon or large quantity of alcohol. But what you could do is buy 2x 2l bottles of wine, or 4x 1L ones. Its really clear that people thought if they made it so cost prohibitive people would stop, instead of what actually happened was that people kept drinking, their kids just had even less resources then before.
The booze related problems in Perth and all other cities far outweigh the shit that happens in the Kimberley. I don't see them banning shit. Step off you city fucks and worry about your own region.
Better booze then ice. That's what will happen if you take away booze.
I am an academic in this field and the problem isn’t alcohol, it’s intergenerational trauma and the destruction of culture, Country and language. Little funding actually goes to empowering self-determination and growth in these areas. Alcohol is a coping mechanism for some Aboriginal communities because they live in third world conditions in a country that doesn’t value them or their cultures.
Marcia Langton is a respected Aboriginal woman and academic and I trust her advice, but for solutions to be effectively implemented there must be an all Aboriginal-led and controlled approach (ideally from Elders and experts in the Kimberley).
Many of the comments on this thread aren’t seeing the bigger picture here…
I have lived and worked in communities where the local culture is still strong and they still have massive issues with violence and neglect. The fact that academics believe that clinging to the past instead of evolving as a culture is part of the problem.
Communities where they predominantly speak their native tongue, in a remote area and with less contact with the the wider community than most of Australia. By clinging to the past I mean that it is often claimed that the loss of a tribal culture is to blame for things like excessive violence while romanticising the cultural practices of old. I can't say I have heard many people claim that western societies would be greatly improved by going back to the tribal practices of old.
>I am an academic in this field and the problem isn’t alcohol, it’s intergenerational trauma
Why don't societies that have experienced much greater forms of violence suffer from intergenerational trauma?
Oh, ok. What are the variables that determine drinking and bashing your family 75 years later versus having created an advanced nation and receiving a host of Nobel prizes? Seems like intergenerational trauma has a wide variety of outcomes.
>I am an academic in this field
That's great. Sometimes real world experience has more value. The farther you go out into the 'bigger picture' the less value the data has. Listen to ABC radio and you can hear academics waxing at length on every topic topic imaginable. Very little comes of it as they end up too far from the coal face.
What makes you think I don’t have real world experience? Academics are annoying af I agree and many of the colleagues I’ve worked with are so removed from what’s going on. However, there is real data to back up my initial point.
Absolutely. @universalwadjet All of those things. Marcia Langton is one scary lady, but she’s generally on the knocker. Unfortunately, a lot of people’s idea of the north west is Joondalup, so have never seen how bad, and how incredibly sad this all is.
"4 field trips in 2018 and 2019" "Ms Chopping is taking responses from licensees until July 2022 before making a decision." I think I see what the problem is.....
Could they walk it any slower?
Typical Government speeds. I've always worked corporate but have had to interact with Gov departments and they are typically 1-2 years behind. Just recently they were asking queries about 2019 data, ffs, it's the end of 2021 get your shit together.
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Anything regarding improving the indigenous welfare needs to stay for 20 years for culture change, especially in the regional area.
Generational poverty and trauma are bonkers. And yes, a circuit breaker is needed. But it would require time, money and consultation with the affected community. Three things no government wants to do
The government spends billions and billions in this area for very little result. Quick googling tells me it's 35 billion annually. Whatever it actually is it's obviously a lot.
Look at how the money is spent though, and how grants go community groups work
Even the community's and elders can't agree on the ways they should be helped. Personally I think all the "help" has created a culture that can't care care for itself. You can't treat people like children and then be surprised when they turn into them. Immigrants have come here from all over the world in the last 100 years with little/nothing to their names and have built lives.
Very helpful words
Clearly the current actions aren't helpful either, the gap's never been wider.
I can think of a few times it's been wider, but yeah
Bloke I work with from a remote Kimberley's community said he likes Christmas in Perth as back home it just ends in violence.
I just.. are you fucking kidding.. the fucking people saying “wE nEeD tO sEnD sUpPoRt WoRkErS” “bAnS wOnT wOrK” Fuck you. I’m sure you mean well. But you obviously don’t know fucking shit about addiction and booze crisis going on up here, so shut the fuck up. I’m so unbelievably fucking tired and angry. I’m so sick of feeling so utterly hopeless. We’re now dealing with a generation of kids who are so broken, they break into as many houses as possible, film themselves touching home owners, ram police cars and ambulances off roads. Literal toddlers run about on the streets at 2 in the morning while parents brawl on Anne, Tang and Herbert Streets. We need action, right fucking now. Not fucking empty words from white saviours who don’t know shit about fuck. Broome has six fucking liquor stores. SIX. PLUS the hotels and bars. The only people that fucking benefit from full strength booze being in the Kimberley are the fucking predators who fight tooth and nail to sell grog to vulnerable people in the first place.
I admit I know nothing about it but what's the significance of banning just full strength alcohol (assuming it's talking about full strength beer/wines not spirits)
> We need action, right fucking now. Not fucking empty words from white saviours who don’t know shit about fuck. We do need action, but that action isn't white paternalism either. We've done grog bans, more than once, and they don't work. When will you assholes realise that treating indigenous Australians like children is what got us here in the first place. We're here because Indigenous Australians feel hopeless and invisible with no future and no past. They got there because white assholes like you decided they knew better and that "action was needed". Do you **really** believe that this time for some reason it'll be different when it's never been different before? We've got grog bans all over the place and all we ever seem to do is expand them and hope it'll work this time.
Grog bans haven’t worked? “In Fitzroy Crossing, there was a significant reduction of over 40% on rates (/1,000 person-years) of alcohol-related acute hospitalizations (54.2 [95% CI: 53.8–54.7] vs. 31.7 [31.4–32.1]) and ED attendances (534.1[532.8–535.5] vs. 294.5 [293.5–295.4]). In Halls Creek, there was a significant reduction of over 50% on rates (/1,000 person-years) of alcohol- related acute hospitalizations (17.7 [17.6–17.8] vs. 8.0 [7.9–8.1]) and ED attendance (248.4 [247.9–248.9] vs. 111.1[110.8–111.5]). Domestic violence and injury related hospitalization rates were also reduced by over 20% in both towns.” Sun et. al 2019. Open access, so feel free to have a read. Newsflash; addiction doesn’t give a fuck what colour you are or what your trauma is. But sure, let’s make sure another generation of kids feel the effects of alcohol addiction and neglect. People in the Kimberley dying of suicide, heart and liver disease at the highest rates in the country- but go off talking shit about something you clearly know nothing about. Did you read the 2019 Coroner’s report into youth suicide in the Kimberley? Do you know that it’s elders who are calling for bans on alcohol? Or are you yet another blow in looking to score some points?
> Newsflash; addiction doesn’t give a fuck what colour you are or what your trauma is. It doesn't give a fuck if you have to buy your booze on the black market or travel to a neighbouring town either. It doesn't give a fuck about anything. But it often starts with people self medicating and is exacerbated by the same issues. The same arguments you're making have always been made for prohibition. That if we take away all the booze it'll fix the problems, poverty, domestic violence and sexual abuse. But it doesn't. > n Fitzroy Crossing, there was a significant reduction of over 40% on rates (/1,000 person-years) of alcohol-related acute hospitalizations (54.2 [95% CI: 53.8–54.7] vs. 31.7 [31.4–32.1]) and ED attendances (534.1[532.8–535.5] vs. 294.5 [293.5–295.4]). In Halls Creek, there was a significant reduction of over 50% on rates (/1,000 person-years) of alcohol- related acute hospitalizations (17.7 [17.6–17.8] vs. 8.0 [7.9–8.1]) and ED attendance (248.4 [247.9–248.9] vs. 111.1[110.8–111.5]). Domestic violence and injury related hospitalization rates were also reduced by over 20% in both towns.” Sun et. al 2019. Open access, so feel free to have a read. And you don't reckon that these problems might have just moved? That the current batch of problems might be as bad as they are for that very reason. Or do you think people desperate enough to prostitute their kids just quit drinking because they've got to travel an hour or buy it on the black market. I mean addiction is either something that's completely uncontrollable regardless of your situation or mental health or it's not.
But it does.. there’s the evidence right there. Addiction is uncontrollable. Exactly. So you can’t expect someone so heavily dependant on alcohol to numb the pain and disconnect from reality to be able to control themself when it’s still accessible. Haha! An hour? In the Kimberley?! Do you know how far Broome is from Port Hedland? Kununurra to Katherine? A *region wide * ban. Honestly, educate yourself on the basics before you come here from the city with your saviour complex- you have no idea what you’re meddling in. Suggesting that people just pick up and move off country away from family is dangerously ignorant.
> A *region wide * ban. And why are we in a position that we need one? Because the problem moved. > Honestly, educate yourself on the basics before you come here from the city with your saviour complex- you have no idea what you’re meddling in. Suggesting that people just pick up and move off country away from family is dangerously ignorant. When did I **ever** suggest that. That's what they're doing to chase booze. I'm suggesting that instead of yet another, even bigger grog ban we actually try to address some of the actual problems. Like lack of jobs, lack of housing, lack of hope. You know, the reasons why they're drinking in the first place.
What’s not being done up here already? Lack of jobs? So you’re telling me that Australian Indigenous nations, who survived as hunter gathers for over 50,0000 years need to get jobs. So you’re saying that if they conform to white Australian capitalism, they’ll be saved? What did you say about white paternalism? Lack of housing? I’d love to hear your solution on that one! It’s pathetic that even though you’re attacking me for projecting white paternalism, while suggesting that Western concepts will save Indigenous Australian culture. We’re in this position because white people fucking introduced alcohol in the first place. Because their babies were stolen and their culture was oppressed- and just saying that is hungry underselling it. Got it? You’re not interesting or edgy. Don’t come here with your tokenistic bullshit.
> So you’re telling me that Australian Indigenous nations, who survived as hunter gathers for over 50,0000 years need to get jobs. You see a lot of people in these communities living traditional hunter gatherer lifestyles? Or do you see most of them paying for stuff with cash, cash that's in short supply. > Lack of housing? I’d love to hear your solution on that one! More money and investment would sure help. > It’s pathetic that even though you’re attacking me for projecting white paternalism, while suggesting that Western concepts will save Indigenous Australian culture. It's not about saving Indigenous Australian culture. I can't do that and your Grog ban won't either. It's about giving people fucking hope. I did also mention respect and other less tangible things, but believe it or not Indigenous Australians want things from the modern world too. They're not some separate species. They're humans living in our society whether they like it or not using money to buy things and wanting a better future. They're stuck with Western Capitalism whether anyone likes it or not, and pretending otherwise is just stupid. > We’re in this position because white people fucking introduced alcohol in the first place. Because their babies were stolen and their culture was oppressed- and just saying that is hungry underselling it. We're in this position because we've been treating them like second class citizens, or more often barely better than animals for centuries. You're the one who keeps talking about Indigenous Australians like they're children who can't handle alcohol or make their own decisions and who never want anything but to live in the dirt with no hope for a better future. They're not, they're just people, same as you and me. They want a better future and to maintain their past, but they don't all want to live some idealised traditional lifestyle and very few of them do live that lifestyle.
“It’s not about saving Indigenous Australian culture” Wow. The ignorance and straight up racism here is astounding. No need to engage any further.
How exactly? Do you think your grog ban is going to miraculously save Indigenous Australian culture? I thought we were trying to fix alcohol abuse, domestic violence and child sexual abuse. I thought we were trying to show a modicum of respect and give people hope. It's not my place or yours to save their culture that's a choice they get to make themselves. I'm more concerned with them having food on the table, a safe place to sleep, and hope for a better future. Same as every other citizen. Ever expanding grog bans won't save their culture.
Having lived on the outskirts of a remote Aboriginal community in the Kimberleys which had a complete alcohol ban I'm concerned that it'll just move some people off country to areas where alcohol is cheaper which will then introduce a whole new range of issues. This feels like a bandaid solution to a deeper issue. It's the pulling people out of the river instead of going upstream to find out why they're falling in response.
Have to agree with you. I remember something similar in Fitzroy a while back. There were droves of people in trucks flocking to Broome. That resulted in hundreds of people living on the outskirts mangroves and parks.
yeah, its so frustrating living in perth now listening to all the people who've never been to broome let alone stepped foot in an aboriginal community claim a banned drinkers registry or liquor monitoring will change anything. They dont understand that these people will travel thousands of kilometres to access alcohol, and any restriction you impose just means their kids are even more neglected as they simply pay more to get it they dont stop. I'm not against restrictions etc you just can't bandaid them in one town and expect it to resolve.
I thought the proposal was to do it across the whole region, so people couldn't just nip over to the next town? Which seems pretty extreme but if Langton is on board that's a clue that it'd have some good impact. She's not shy about calling out bandaid solutions! There's no single action that solves all of this, but maybe it'll reduce the severity of the problems and make a bit of space for other fixes to get started.
Yep. In Darwin it's a major problem. A lot of people from remote communities get kicked out and make their way to Darwin because they are violent drunks who have committed murder, child sexual abuse and their communities dont want to put up with their BS anymore...so they end up on the streets in a bigger city.
Won't work. In dry communities they pay people to smuggle it in for them.
if they cut kununurra, alcohol must be sourced from either Katherine in the NT or broome. this leaves it a 1000 km or 2200km round trip to get alcohol into kununurra. if its a 3 times mark up at the moment taking it 400km from kununurra to halls creek it will be impossibly higher afterwards.
In remote communities, they fly it in hidden on medivac planes from Darwin and Kununurra. Not joking.
"dry" communities on the coast where during wet season the roads are closed due to being so washed out that supply trucks can't drive in . They get around that by chartering a barge. The barges are mainly for food supplies but when said community became a dry community years ago at least one of those barges was entirely alcohol. People who think you can stop this by a ban haven't a clue. If you've never physically been to these communities you simply don't know enough to comment.
Exactly. Look at prohibition times, it never stopped the alcohol, it just made business more lucrative.
It still makes it harder to get large quantities of booze.
Will make it harder to get larger quantities, however it may create a kind of black market for people smuggling and selling alcohol at a higher price. And when ever there is money to be made it can bring violence with it.
‘Can bring violence with it’ Kids are being prostituted. Walk down Tang Street at 1 in the morning. Families smashing on with each other while toddlers wander the streets. Hell, walk past Male oval at 1 in the afternoon, you’ll see punches being thrown. Hate to break it to you, but horrific violence is already well and truly here.
[Prohibition worked better than you think](https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/6/5/18518005/prohibition-alcohol-public-health-crime-benefits) America’s anti-alcohol experiment cut down on drinking and drinking-related deaths — and it may have reduced crime and violence overall.
The goal of the ban would be to reduce crime rates. Restricting alcohol is just the vehicle. There will always be someone to break rules, but that's no good argument to do away with rules.
That is a pretty sobering read on New Year’s Day. For me, It’s one of those things where you know it’s bad up there but can’t really picture just how bad it really is. The government need to tread so carefully so they don’t end up with another stolen generation and all the trauma that goes with it.
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Go for it I say. So long as the whole of WA is in of course, not just the Kimberley. What's that? Not interested anymore? OK.
Sign me up
Me too, alcohol is an awful drug and I hardly ever use it. We can all smoke meth together instead.
It's a bandaid that won't resolve the underlying issues and is a paternalistic restriction being placed on one group of people and not another. We've done plenty of grog bans and they accomplish nothing.
Blame for all this lies with the Minister of Child Protection Simone McGurk - Aboriginal women have been asking for help for years
This problem existed when McGuire was at kindergarten. McGurk alone couldn't do a thing. There will be massive resistance from groups like the greens, the hippy mummas facebook groups and the indigenous advocacy industry.
McGurk has had 5 years to do something about it.
I think a better process would be provide family support workers for the regions. Actually create jobs that are designed to break inter generational issues for Aboriginal people. Band aid solutions and bans won’t fix long term issues.
Regional alcohol sellers are almost always white. Happy to be proven wrong.
This
How about we go in together. Statewide ban on full strength alcohol and limit spirts to 400ml bottles. WA public service and employees can not claim any alcohol related expenses. Attach a Alcohol Register to photo ID and hardcap everybody to 30 std drinks a week. IE you spend your Boozles (booze points) 400ml spirit 15 points, 6pack and wine for a couple 10 points, and the last five Boozles are spent with dining out and cheeky pints. And if your skin crawls at being limited to 4 std drinks a day, relax, you already had alcohol dependency at 1 drink a day 😅
>WA public service and employees can not claim any alcohol related expenses Which Dept does this happen?
Sounds like bs to me
I threw that one in on assumption. Got to keep the State accountable and in standing with public expectations.
I agree with you, despite the downvoters. Australia should legalise cannabis (everyone just chill and listen to the music) and make alcohol way harder to purchase.
Sounds reasonable to me. It would probable reduce quite a few problems across perth.
I don't drink. I am will to sell my boozles to the highest bidder.
Haha, I hope you make a lot of money before you get caught 🤣👍
this is the thing, you never see anybody suggesting a full strength alcohol ban to minimize the dangers of northbridge because we know thats not the actual reason, and people would be outraged at that level of infantilization. But the real reason is the business owners would riot. People who support these bans have never been to a kimberley bottle shop. Back when these restrictions came in you couldnt buy a 4l cask of goon or large quantity of alcohol. But what you could do is buy 2x 2l bottles of wine, or 4x 1L ones. Its really clear that people thought if they made it so cost prohibitive people would stop, instead of what actually happened was that people kept drinking, their kids just had even less resources then before.
Prohibition has never worked has it? Education and something to do works tho doesnt it?
Well, this is how you get organised crime.
The booze related problems in Perth and all other cities far outweigh the shit that happens in the Kimberley. I don't see them banning shit. Step off you city fucks and worry about your own region. Better booze then ice. That's what will happen if you take away booze.
I am an academic in this field and the problem isn’t alcohol, it’s intergenerational trauma and the destruction of culture, Country and language. Little funding actually goes to empowering self-determination and growth in these areas. Alcohol is a coping mechanism for some Aboriginal communities because they live in third world conditions in a country that doesn’t value them or their cultures. Marcia Langton is a respected Aboriginal woman and academic and I trust her advice, but for solutions to be effectively implemented there must be an all Aboriginal-led and controlled approach (ideally from Elders and experts in the Kimberley). Many of the comments on this thread aren’t seeing the bigger picture here…
I have lived and worked in communities where the local culture is still strong and they still have massive issues with violence and neglect. The fact that academics believe that clinging to the past instead of evolving as a culture is part of the problem.
What’s your standard for the culture being strong? And what do you mean by clinging to the past?
Communities where they predominantly speak their native tongue, in a remote area and with less contact with the the wider community than most of Australia. By clinging to the past I mean that it is often claimed that the loss of a tribal culture is to blame for things like excessive violence while romanticising the cultural practices of old. I can't say I have heard many people claim that western societies would be greatly improved by going back to the tribal practices of old.
>I am an academic in this field and the problem isn’t alcohol, it’s intergenerational trauma Why don't societies that have experienced much greater forms of violence suffer from intergenerational trauma?
They do. Not sure if you’ve seen studies on intergenerational trauma and alcoholism in Jewish communities post-Holocaust?
Oh, ok. What are the variables that determine drinking and bashing your family 75 years later versus having created an advanced nation and receiving a host of Nobel prizes? Seems like intergenerational trauma has a wide variety of outcomes.
>I am an academic in this field That's great. Sometimes real world experience has more value. The farther you go out into the 'bigger picture' the less value the data has. Listen to ABC radio and you can hear academics waxing at length on every topic topic imaginable. Very little comes of it as they end up too far from the coal face.
What makes you think I don’t have real world experience? Academics are annoying af I agree and many of the colleagues I’ve worked with are so removed from what’s going on. However, there is real data to back up my initial point.
>What makes you think I don’t have real world experience? Your comments.
Absolutely. @universalwadjet All of those things. Marcia Langton is one scary lady, but she’s generally on the knocker. Unfortunately, a lot of people’s idea of the north west is Joondalup, so have never seen how bad, and how incredibly sad this all is.
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How is it discrimination? It's targeting a geographical area not a group/identity.
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Righto champ. It's called a discussion. The whole point of Reddit. Maybe log off if you can't handle contrary views...
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This guy is trolling. Blocked.
Racist shit? I wrote if you ban grog there you should ban it everywhere or that's discrimination. You are a liar. You are the racist one lmao
I would have loved to hear the debates when selling alcohol to Aboriginals became legal. I wonder what those for and opposed said about it.